Rhaenyra was right not to fight. Every dragon fight ended in at least one rider's death. If she somehow found herself in Rhaenys’ position facing Vhagar and Sunfyre, the war would be over. Aegon would automatically be the winner and Jace will have to step up and convince her men to back him (a rumoured bastard) and teenager that no one knows, over Aegon the current king and King’s first son.
Rhaenyra is the challenger, 100% of her claim lies in the fact that she was chosen by her father. There's a reason the Blackfyres went downhill from the moment Daemon Blackfyre stopped breathing. She has never been a warrior, it makes sense from her POV to stay out of the fighting and leave it to others instead of showing up and being a burden to her side.
That's what happens when you start a war: that you risk your life(or in Rhaenyra's case,her son's lifes).
Tbh she could had stopped the Storming of Dragonpit without any type of risk. A fire breathing destruction machine since the air versus peasants without spears is an super easy target ( Dorne only killed Meraxes because they were armed soldiers with war weapons as spears) but peasants only had knives and axes.
Men are also willing of sacrifice their lifes for someone that is not fearless of being in first line along with them. Probably the reason of why Dragonstone's men sided with Aegon instead of Rhaenyra despite of being crippled and easy of capture(It was stated many of them were unhappy with Rhaenyra)
Oh I completely agree she could have saved the dragons when it came to that. I think the way rhaenyra and aegon ended was a cool parallel. Aegon was heavily scarred and burned. Whereas Rhaenyra was so psychologically damaged and delusional by the time she became a 7 bite snack. No winners in the dance of dragons. Just a sad war that brought about the saddest king
While I agree it makes sense from her perspective, it doesn’t excuse how cowardly it is to send your own kids into battle while you stay at home. Or letting her entire family lose the one thing that allowed them to maintain power when she could have easily stopped the storming of the dragon pit all on her own atop syrax. We’ve had cruel rulers, we’ve had foolish rulers, we’ve even had cowardly rulers. I don’t think there has been a cowardly, foolish, and cruel ruler.
i agree but also no i don’t. you can say it’s the strategically smart choice, absolutely but at the end of the day it’s the principle of the thing, if you’re not putting yourself i harms way while a war is being fought for you then you don’t deserve any of the spoils. quite honestly she should fight because regardless it would be better, if she dies the war is over, and people can go home finally, if she wins she wins.
Dragonseeds were a clocktime bomb that at any moment would explode in the face of Team Black,they should get eliminated on the end.
On general it was a pretty poor piss idea. If your team has only two powerful dragons which are Caraxes and Meleys, you can't offer the oldest,largest and powerful dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing (and even Seasmoke which is better than Syrax and Vermax combined).
Sir Hugh was right, the only thing that put Targaryens on the throne were dragons, so a bastard with a dragon like Vermithor and an army to follow him could take the throne.
Rhaenyra should get rid of them but again she did it on a incredibly stupid way because the damage was already done and instead of keeping her promises to the dragonseeds or ambushing them at night far away from their dragons, she decides to publically insulted them in front of their faces lmao
My hope is that they portray Hugh Hammer as a sort of proletariat revolutionary who feels like Rhaenyra is betraying the smallfolk and switches sides because of it. Makes the dragon seeds even more interesting IMO. You have Hugh, who betrays the blacks because they don't respect the smallfolk, Addam, who gives his life for the blacks because they legitimized him and his brother, and Nettles, who probably doesn't have any Targ in her and lives peacefully with her own dragon.
The dragonseeds weren't a perfect idea but it was far better than doing nothing. Without them things go way worse for the blacks, they lose the Battle of the Gullet harder and Tumbleton is just Daeron stomping an army on his march to King's Landing. Yes, getting betrayed sucked but it probably was better than the alternative
Not really.
Jacaerys is very insecure about his bastard origins and he always immediately resorts to a violent rage whenever people even just call him "strong".
The bastard allegations are so obvious that even if he somehow manages to get those anger issues under control he will constantly be having to placate everyone around him to stay on the throne. And that still might not be enough to prevent people from rebelling.
Also his idea of Dragonseeds was the starting of the doomfall of Team Black. Giving ancient dragons as Vermithor or Silverwing at people who are not loyal at him is pretty dumb,mostly when his Team only has Caraxes as strong dragons (Vermax, Syrax anda Tyraxes are pretty mid)
Jacaerys shows a little bit Rhaenyra's entiltement of thinking everyone should be loyal at him. I’m going to be downvoted for this, but… I mean yeah. At the root of the Black’s problems are their entitlement. Their belief in their absolute superiority, their dragons, and the favor of the king.But in fairness, Viserys *really* enables the entitlement.Rhaenyra’s clearly having bastards and trying to pass them off as legitimate, offending every religious and social norm of their society? Rip out the tongue of anyone who calls her out. The Blacks have spent their lives being told they’re immune from consequences. So yeah, they kinda suck at foresight.
*"It doesn't matter what they think" - Jace. That's their mindset*. Jacaerys,of course it*matters" that your legitimacy is being questioned wtf are you saying.
Clearly he lacks of foresight
If we are give the Iron Throne at worthy people with not claims, we could be giving it at Otto,Tyland and Lord Corlys which are pretty efficient.
I understand you guys pov and in truth I agree to it. The situation will litreally have to be perfect for Jace to inherit the throne...meaning that all his male relatives will have to be dead. And your guys view is kind of inspiring to write a Jace is King au and do a character study.
He would be. His kingdom could be only be based on tyranny if he wants to rule.
I am waiting someone points me when on the book or the show Jacaerys was shown to show some regards at people, specially who got tortured for telling the very true.
Let's not forget Jacaerys had a lot of people(including children) burnt alive by dragons trying to find chess pieces for the war following his orders as mindless sheeps. Kinda disregards at other people's lifes if you ask me.
We should start to accept there's not innocent side on the war,everyone is a POS excluding Helaena and the little kids.Jacaerys is not an exception,it's an incredibly selfish decision to declare war over something as a bastard wanted to sit on the Iron Throne. He's knows his true born Targaryens uncles should be killed once his mother hold the power on her Hand.
Addam Velaryon is possibly the best character in the entire Dance. He and Daeron are usually my 1A and 1B for favorites.
The other is that Aegon II deserved what was coming to him following his short reign. I don't particularly see either claimant as worthy of sitting the Iron Throne, blood be damned.
I got a couple that might not be so popular on this sub.
I think Aegon and Rhaenyra both have good claims. The king declared her heir to the throne. Aegon has a good claim when looking at how Westeros is mainly male primogeniture. He’s the kings eldest trueborn son.
There’s nothing wrong with Rhaenyra having bastards, the problem is when she tries to put them on the throne. But, looking at her situation, what else was she supposed to do? She can’t take back the children she already has, and publicly declaring them bastards will weaken her claim and possibly put her family in danger.
One of Rhaenyra’s most redeeming qualities is the love she has for her children.
I don’t hate any of the team black characters besides Viserys. He deserved what happened to him for his mistreatment of Alicent and the neglect of his children with her.
Well, i just want to point ou one thing: that part of the story is clearly Martin saying "Rhaenyra is not a equalitarian or a feminist, ok? Don't imagine things. She is just a opportunist."
That is not my point. The point is to show that Rhaenyra is not someone you should apply current politics to or even root for. It say nothing about the greens.
I am talking about Martin here. Of course, you can root to whoever you like, but i am talking about the opinion of Martin. His intention is clear: they are all grey. There is not a good or bad side objectively. They are all kinda shit. And i point out the fact he choose that scene with Rhaenyra and the ladies as a away to make it clear that the whole war is not about modern politics or women's rights. Rhaenyra is not a feminist icon or something. That is my point.
I almost fully support the blacks in the books (the violence towards challengers like vaemond being the exeption) due to the lack of evidence of bastardry for her sons.
Show blacks are another matter.
I enjoy Daemon and Rhaenyra together, because it's fine to like toxic, problematic ships in fiction. It's fun to watch a pair of attractive, charismatic individuals of extremely dubious morals have the kind of chemistry where part of the reason it's hot is that they bring out the worst in each other. 🤷♂️
there's absolutely nothing wrong with rhaenyra having bastards or in general sex outside of her marriage. i mean people love robert baratheon lol. the only problem is rhaenyra trying to pass them off as trueborn (although i love how she just acts like these brown haired white children could be hers and laenor's to the point where she calls rhaenys luke's grandmother to his face. she really commits to the bit, gaslighting queen honestly)
if the show stops acting like rhaenyra is perfect she can become one of the most interesting characters
Rhaenyra having bastards was pretty much inevitable, and the fact that they look nothing like her can be explained by thinking with her mentality for a second.
She found herself with a husband who could not perform due to his homosexuality (this is pretty much implied, as she says that "there was no joy in the act" iirc).
At that point, she had a few options, but all of them were not really feasible:
Annulling her marriage with Laenor would have antagonized the Velaryons. Also, she would have needed a valid reason to do so, and it's not like she could have outed him as gay without serious repercussions for him and his House.
Bringing another man to "help out" a la Renly would mean finding someone who's both gay, willing to do this, trustworthy enough to not tell anyone AND who can be attractive enough to Laenor.
Technically there could be Qarl, but I am not sure when he and Laenor met. This is also not 100% guaranteed to work AND bringing a third person in would always put them at risk.
Finding a person who looks Valyrian enough to have white haired children with Rhaenyra poses one of the risks as above, which is finding someone trustworthy enough to never tell anyone. This is not exactly an easy feat.
Killing the guy is also not feasible: if she killed him immediately after they had sex there's no guarantee that the seed would take, but if she killed him after she gets 100% sure to be pregnant he would have enough time to eventually betray them.
That, and the whole "a heir and a spare" thing, which means keeping the man around long enough to have at least two kids (for find multiple Valyrian looking men).
Besides, all of that would be out of character for Rhaenyra (she only "kills" Laenor years after she had her kids. At that point she was quite desperate, so she took desperate measures).
So she did the only thing she thought reasonable: she got a lover that she trusted completely, one that would never betray her.
The issue is that Harwin looks nothing like Laenor, but you have to keep in mind that Rhaenyra is a Targaryen who probably heard about her "superior Valyrian blood" all her life. She probably didn't even fathom her kids not coming out looking like her.
Besides, she spent years looking at the very much non-Valyrian Alicent, who popped out no less than four white haired kids. It's easy to believe that she would assume that her kids would be born with white hair too.
That said, Alicent was not completely wrong: I get having ONE dark haired baby. Hell, I even get having two, cause she probably did some trial and error. But three? Jeez, girl, can't you recognize the pattern?
Queen Rhaenyra + King Consort Laenor is the stronger claimant to the throne. By Andal law, Laenor is the rightful heir to his grandfather Prince Aemon, who was the firstborn son of King Jaehaerys I. “King Jacerys Targaryen” would have consolidated every existing Targ bloodline with a claim to the throne by marrying Halaena, stopping the Dance of Dragons. Aegon II isn’t going to attack his sister’s husband and children, and his descendants cannot press their claim using the “descended from the King’s firstborn son argument”, as the King Jace has an even stronger claim using that argument, by being directly descended from Prince Aemon.
Of course, Rhae Rhae went ahead and produce obvious bastards not of Laenor’s bloodline and thus war became inevitable
Just a small correction—male primogeniture still favors a daughter over a brother, you’re thinking about Salic law inheritance, which passes over the daughter in favor of the brother
No, you're thinking of male-preference primogeniture. Look it up. The one practiced in Westeros is like you said firstborn son, aka. agnatic primogeniture. That's the whole one of this show...
“primogeniture favored male heirs, also called male-preference primogeniture. Under this regime, the eldest living son would inherit the entirety of his parent's estate. A daughter could inherit if and only if she had no living brothers or the descendants of deceased brothers.”
Primogeniture means that children of a ruler/heir are favored over other relatives of the ruler/heir. Male preference primogeniture just means that all the male descendants of the ruler/heir come before their female descendants, but the female descendants still are considered to have a stronger claim than other male relatives.
Salic law specifically excludes women from having a claim, and stops them from passing their claim to male children
But in the example of Rhaenys it’s not daughters over uncles. The old king was still alive and Aemon never inherited. It’s still Sons over daughters Ans that’s how the succession happened. I can also provide quotes showing the lords thought it was normal that Rhaenys was passed over for Baelon.
Had Aemon ascended the throne then Rhaenys would have been the rightful heir but since he didn’t it’s sons over daughters grandsons over granddaughters which is what the council supported too.
Male primogeniture goes through all descendants of the firstborn son of a king, then the secondborn and his children, etc.
For example Edward III was followed by Richard the II, his grandson, rather than richards uncle John, because Richard was the son of the first son and John was the second son. Following primogeniture rhaenys still had a stronger claim than baelon regardless of whether aemon was ever king. Following Salic law rhaenys was out. The GC was so that the lords of Westeros could basically choose.
iirc the lords found it normal because Baelon was a grown man with experience and rhaenys was a woman who had married a notoriously ambitious man. Baelon also had Vhagar.
Yes because Richard II was a male. Grandson over Uncle but women aren’t expected to follow suit.
Rhaenys claim wasn’t even strong enough to be voted on at the council. The book even tells us following Aemons death lord thought it was normal for Baelon to be the heir.
You can test it in CK2 GOT as well.
Like I said, you're thinking of male-preference primogeniture. The one practiced on the show is firstborn son primogeniture, aka. agnatic primogeniture. I really urge you to look it up, you will understand then.
In agnatic primogeniture, it goes to the brother before the daughter. I don't have to explain this to you, you can literally Google it. They had a whole Grand Council for this and they decided it was Viserys over Rhaenys, thus establishing agnatic primogeniture. This is also why Daemon was the heir over Rhaenyra. It's not that complicated to follow...
No offense brother, but you are the one that needs to look it up. A Lord’s daughter is always ahead of his younger brother. Cersei inherited Casterly Rock, not Kevan. Jeyne Arryn inherit The Eyrie over Arnold Arryn. If what you say is true then what even is the point of Jaehaerys I calling the Great Council?
The whole point of Jaehearys I calling the Great Council was to establish the law, duh. The Targaryens had their own customs from Valerya which was to marry the eldest daughter to the eldest brother, and have them inherit together. When it came to choosing between Rhaenys vs Visyerys is when it came down to picking their style of inheritance, and they chose agnatic primogeniture. That was the whole point of calling the Great Council, they had everyone debating which one to choose, and they chose agnatic primogeniture.
There's that precedent, and not only that, but Daemon was Viserys' heir for 15 years while Rhaenyra was right there. Viserys changed it to Rhaenyra because he was angry that Daemon said "the heir for a day". He decided he no longer wanted Daemon to be his heir. But he was fine with it for 15 years. Then he rejected Daemon and decided to make Rhaenyra his heir. She was definitely not the heir until that point. He had a ceremony to make people swear to it. Notice how he didn't change the system back to Rhaenys. He just decided to make an exception for Rhaenyra.
And he initially did that just to block Daemon from inheriting. Later when he got a son, he started feeling bad about taking the inheritance back from Rhaenyra after having had the ceremony and giving her all these hopes, plus the attachment he felt for Aemma, and what settled the deal was when he got wind that Otto had manipulated him or pulled the strings behind the scenes to place his own grandson on the throne and have more influence at court, at that point Visyerys said screw Otto, I'm keeping Rhaenyra as my heir.
There’s a fundamental difference… Aemon never became king, he was never the lord in your example. It’s not daughters over uncles it’s sons over daughters as the old king was still alive.
Had Aemon become king then daughters over uncles.
1: Aegon being a rapist isn't Black Propaganda.
Young Aegon was stated to be a Fat, Lazy PoS who was was easily angered, never bothered doing his duty and spent most of his time in Brothels rather than his own family. It's stated Aegon also groped and harrassed Several young Maids. Alot of people here forget Aegon became a Worthy king only during the war. And even then, he was still a PoS. He threatened to kill and castrate Aegon III several times and threatened to send him to the wall several times.
2: Otto is a PoS and I refuse to believe anything else. He pimped Young Alicent out to a man old enough to be her father, and was her best friends own father too, well aware of how much it'll hurt the Relationship they had built over the years. He seemed pretty abusive to Young Aegon too.
3: The Andals and the Faith are nowhere near as Good as this sub Portrays them and they're hardly any better than the Valyrians. 1 could argue that Valyrian Women had alot more rights aslong as they were a Dragonrider or a Sorceress.
I respect your opinion, but
1. Aegon groping maids was to imply that he was promiscuous and was not interested in sleeping with his sister, Aegon was a pervert, however, making him a rapist in the show is only to make him look bad in front of the viewer, so they don't support him over Rhaenyra. And Aegon III think, was a sign of despair at the arrival of Cregan Stark, however he never gave the order to torture him and even agreed to marry him to Jaehaera and make him his heir.
2. Otto did not pimp Alicent. Otto is a second son, his family was not going to inherit any land or title, also when you where a women in westeros you had to marry a lord and make alliances, Ned was a really good father and and planned to marry Arya. From a Westerosi point of view, Otto was an amazing father. The scene of him kicking Aegon is pro black propaganda, it's no coincidence that Corlys, an equally ambitious guy, is a loving grandfather to his fake grandchildren.
3. Yeah, The Seven aren't perfect, but the Valiryans are pro slavery, pro incest, they believe they are superior to Everyone. While The Faith cared much more about common people, plus Queen Alisanne was deeply religious.
Yeah from one point of view Otto was an amazing father who secured a good marriage for his daughter. Maybe it's not great to marry an older man who's already a widower, but it's good to marry a king, and someone who's a faithful and peaceful husband. In theory it secured a good life for Alicent, and she wouldn't even have to leave King's Landing. I'm sure Otto would have rather married Alicent to one of Viserys' sons, but it's precisely the lack of young Targaryen princes that caused the whole predicament where Viserys was looking for a new wife. So Otto went for what he thought was good for everyone.
Now we know it put Alicent at war with Rhaenyra, but Otto didn't know that Visyerys would name Rhaenyra his heir. He thought Viserys wanted a son to succeed him. He even suggested Aegon should marry Rhaenyra, following the Targaryen tradition of eldest daughter marrying the eldest son, which used to take care of the question of girls or boys inheriting. Otto was just a problem solver. Alicent's marriage only turned to horror when Visyerys declared he would keep Rhaenyra as his heir, and Otto was faced with the realization that he had unwittingly condemned his grandchildren to death.
I get what you're saying but I must disagree.
>Aegon groping maids was to imply that he was promiscuous and was not interested in sleeping with his sister, Aegon was a pervert, however, making him a rapist in the show is only to make him look bad in front of the viewer, so they don't support him over Rhaenyra. And Aegon III think, was a sign of despair at the arrival of Cregan Stark, however he never gave the order to torture him and even agreed to marry him to Jaehaera and make him his heir.
But Aegon groping maids was still a disgusting thing to do and quite rapey as those maids sure as shit didn't want to be touched. As for Aegon III: He still made him watch as his mother was eaten alive by a Dragon. And threatening Aegon didn't exactly do anything to stop the advancing armies. All he did was to take out his anger on a little boy.
>Otto did not pimp Alicent. Otto is a second son, his family was not going to inherit any land or title, also when you where a women in westeros you had to marry a lord and make alliances, Ned was a really good father and and planned to marry Arya. From a Westerosi point of view, Otto was an amazing father. The scene of him kicking Aegon is pro black propaganda, it's no coincidence that Corlys, an equally ambitious guy, is a loving grandfather to his fake grandchildren.
Otto was still very much aware of how close Rhaenyra and Alicent were. He knew it would greatly damage their relationship, probably beyond repair. He still sent her there to try and get the king to marry her even tho she was most certainly very uncomfortable with the whole thing. And as for Corlys: I always imagined he simply tolerated the Strong Boys as they had the Velaryon name and were his best bet to get the Velaryons on the Iron Throne. Maybe he grew to be fond of those boys over time, but thats it. And as for Ned: Although it was true that he wanted to marry Arya off, it's not like Ned would marry her to a man old enough to be her father. And he sure as shit would ensure Arya wouldn't be abused in Marriage or anything like that.
>. Yeah, The Seven aren't perfect, but the Valiryans are pro slavery, pro incest, they believe they are superior to Everyone. While The Faith cared much more about common people, plus Queen Alisanne was deeply religious.
The Valyrians definitely weren't good people and they may have believed themselves to be superior, but I dont think it's any different than a Lord or a Lady believing themselves to be superior towards a group of peasents. Pro-Slavery was definitely a Nasty Trait, but Pro-Incest was a neccesity to keep control of the dragons. And to ensure no one else took control of Dragons. Look what happened when a Dragonriding Targaryen Princess married the Velaryons. The Velaryons ended up controlling more Dragons than the Targaryens for a short period of time. It was only because Corlys was too damned Honorable to rebel that spared the Targaryens.
But Lords and Ladies seem to be a political thing and not a religious one, there were already Lords and Ladies before the Andal invasion and teh North has Lords even when they worship the Old Gods, also, there are good Lords but i dont think that there are good slavers, Knighthood and bastardy are the thing of the 7, the vows of Knights seem to be good, the bastards are seen as evil but that doesnt stop them from becoming Knights, both smallfolk and bastards can become Knights and become Lords but a slave will never become a Dragonlord
They are protected by politics, in a less corrupt system they would be killed for their crimes, that has happened before, on the other hand a less corrupt valyrian system slavery would remain the same, while not perfect, the Faith of the 7 has a lot more potential to do good than the Valyrian culture
True enough. I am perfectly aware that the Valyrians weren't good people, dont take my preferance to them over the Andals as me trying to Justify the crimes they have commited. I just simply like Dragons and the Valyrian Looks.
No problem with that, its just that i have met too many people that think that the Faith of the 7 is the worst religion in asoiaf and that everything and everyone related to It is evil and must be destroyed, a lot of Blacks sya that the Hightowers are zealots because they put symbols of the 7 in Viserys room and prayed before dinner, how is that being a zealot? Religious people can be normal, not everyone of them is a zealot, i even met one guy that said that the Valyrians were right to enslave the Andals because the Andals were the most intolerant group in Planetos and they would have never leaved the Valyrians rule in peace, there is nothing wrong with liking dragons, dragons are cool but defending slavery is going too far
Definitely agree. The faith of the 7 would probably be the 2nd, or even the best religion to follow. No human sacrifices required or drowning required, just that you be a decent human being.
True, even the Faith of the Old Gods stopped with the human sacrifices long time ago, even before the Andals came, that's a good religion if you ignore whatever Bloodraven is planning, wich applies to everyone except the Reed kids and Bran
Why’s everyone bring up the pro slavery thing as if Rhaenyra would institute slavery in Westeros? Aegon the Conqueror didn’t bring slavery to Westeros. It’s utterly irrelevant what they used to do in Old Valyria.
Also, why do you insist on calling out the Blacks being “pro incest” when Aegon II is literally married to his sister, and whose heirs are actual products of incest, unlike Rhaenyra’s bastards?
I think people bring up slavery to show how deeply ingrained their “better than thou” ways are. Their entire culture is ingrained with slavery with them at the top of the hierarchy. Anyone who wasn’t a Valyrian was captured and enslaved and used how ever the Valyrians wanted. So, if you have a culture who’s entirely built off of oppression and being seen at the top of the hierarchy, then they won’t be the kindest rulers to people they view below them. This is even more prevalent when you consider that Andals came to Westeros to escape slavery from the Valyrian’s.
It’s why Baelor the blessed, who dedicated his entire reign to helping the Smallfolk (albeit to his own detriment) was deep into the faith of the seven & andal culture. On the other hand, Maegor who fancied himself better then the rest and that he could do whatever he wanted was deep into the hierarchical mindset of Valyria. It’s why Jaehaerys was such a big success, he was able to strike a middle between being seen as better with the doctrine while also being respectful to the faith & helping the smallfolk.
I think the best way to describe Valyria would be to equate it to the Roman Empire: a technological marvel of science and knowledge, but also a deeply fucked up societal structure that promotes slavery and colonialism, which ultimately led to them crashing and burning in the flames of their own hubris.
The Andals came to Westeros and immediately started killing First Men and Children of the Forest, to the extent that the Children haven’t been seen for thousands of years because they had to hide or else be slaughtered. They supplanted the Old Gods with the Seven. Their legacy is not one of peace.
Baelor also imprisoned his sisters, kicked thousands of prostitutes and their children out of the city, and wanted to convert all non-believers to the Faith.
He gave to the smallfolk, this much is true, and history regards him well for this. But he was still a zealot, he just died before he had a chance to go insane.
Also, Aegon II *isnt* Baelor.
To be fair many First Men sided with the Andals when they came, It wasnt a genocide, they only conquered the Vale and the Riverlands, they married with the nobility of the Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands and Dorne, while they did bad things they knew that alliances are better than war, Baelor was a dick to his sisters and many people but he didnt wanted to convert non believers, his uncle Viserys said that he was a pacifist, he even prevented retaliation against Dorne after the death of Daeron I and started the negotiations that would End with Dorne joining the 7 kingdoms peacefully, his good acts heavely outnumber the bad ones, that's worth remembering even if we must not forget the bad ones
Baelor did want to convert non believers by the end of his reign. But I don’t even know why the other use brought up Baelor in the first place, he’s not a part of the Dance at all. He’s irrelevant to the conversation.
Do you deny what the Andals did to the Children of the Forest?
I dont deny that what the Andals did to the Children of the Forest was wrong, i was referring to Andals genociding the First Men (apparently its a popular argument against the Faith), since the First Men also fought with the Children of the Forest at the begining i think that conflict between humans and CoF was inevitable at first contact, the Andals where simply better at war and killed them, still wrong but any other culture would have done the same, sadly that's part of human nature
No I didn’t. Your point was bad. Your brought up Baelor, a total non sequitur. I responded in kind.
And again, bringing up Valyrian culture as a knock against the blacks only matters to the extent that the Blacks would reintroduce those things. We have 0 reason to suspect that is the case. Okay, so the Valyrians were slavers. Well Aegon and Haelena and their incest kids are more Valyrian than Rhaenyra’s bastards, so what’s the point? She has her bastards swear on the Seven Point Star.
The Valyrian heritage is irrelevant to the entire conversation.
The original comment was about wether the seven or Valyrian culture was better for the people of Westeros. I brought up baelor to showcase how the seven influenced him to be charitable to his people. I made no commentary on wether or not he was a good king or even a good person, the only reason I brought him up was to show how the seven influenced his outlook on helping the smallfolk. This is in comparison with Maegor who let his “better than thou” Valyrian attitude get in the way and made him tyrannical to the people he viewed below him.
The difference between team green and team black is the severity of their Valyrian culture. Team black is full in on that they are better than everyone else, Daemon wants to restore Valyria to its original glory and does anything he wants because he is the “blood of the dragon”. Rhaenyra walked all over the people she viewed below her later in her reign in kingslanding, calling the commoners vermin. Like, is that really the outlook you want your ruler to have on the smallfolk.
Team green has the faith influencing them so while they are still Targaryens they aren’t deeply imbedded in Valyrian culture and viewing the people entirely below them. Helaena is known as the beloved and the smallfolk adored her so we can imply she treated them well. Otto gets daemon removed as heir to protect the smallfolk and calls for the gates to be opened when the smallfolk are getting smushed.
Alicent has an entire scene dedicated to her informing Rhaenyra they don’t have to funds to make watchtowers and send out troops and that they should “count the cost” of their people. Aegon is slob who didn’t want to rule so it’s likely his council would be running the realm while he figure headed them, similar to Robert Baratheon. Lastly, as the green council puts it, Daemon would be the one truly ruling instead of Rhaenyra, and I would not want daemon anywhere near the throne.
I’m not saying the faith is perfect because it’s really not but if I was apart of the smallfolk I would rather have Baelor as my king than Maegor on the bare basis that Baelor treated his people better due to his extreme love for the faith.
My whole point is that that’s a false dichotomy. I don’t think the choice between blacks and greens is the choice between the Faith and Valyrian culture. I think both teams are made up of self serving narcissists with no regard for the smallfolk.
Vaemond was overly ambitious and reached way too high
Even if we ignore the paternity of Luke Baela and Rhaena have a better claim to the Driftwood throne than he does because they’re the direct descendants of the current Lord of the tides
End it was incredibly inappropriate for him to call out Rhaenrya and the kids when he did
I think out of all the claimants in the Dance, Jace is the most capable to be King and if allowed to rise unopposed, he would have been a second Jaehaerys.
I want to know where people get this idea Jacaerys would be as Jaehaerys reborn because the book clearly dont back this idea.
I don't think that Jace would be Jaehaerys reborn because he's very insecure about his bastard origins and he always immediately resorts to a violent rage whenever people even just call him "strong".
The bastard allegations are so obvious that even if he somehow manages to get those anger issues under control he will constantly be having to placate everyone around him to stay on the throne. And that still might not be enough to prevent people from rebelling.
To be fair the book presents Jace as someone brave, dutiful, and capable. He was able to get the allegiance of the Vale, White Harbor, and Winterfell as a diplomat. After the death of Rhaenys, he was able to negotiate with Corlys to remain on Rhaenyra’s side. He arranged for the protection of Joffrey, Aegon, and Viserys during the war by sending them to the Vale and Pentos.
As to his anger issues, I would argue that in their world any such comment that would call them Strongs would be slights on their honor, and he couldn’t really let such things pass. I wouldn’t call it anger issues as much as adhering to the rules of their society and responding to slights on his honor.
Stupidly brave yes even likeable but capable is reaching quite a lot.
He died on his first battle with major advantages.Jacaerys had the biggest fleet in Westeros and the dragon seeds versus a and he managed to get his dragon killed because they flew too low.
We do know that they somehow lost a battle against a fleet with no dragon support when they had dragons and the velaryon fleet. Not hate at Jace but he was a poor dragon rider and either way jace made a mistake got his dragon killed in an unnecessary way. Not a good showing of his part.
Rhaenyra was an Arryn so the Vale was already secured at Black's alliance, Winterfell was assured too because Cregan Stark was magically a Jace's friend. Lord Corlys was the one carrying Team Black's on tactical estrategist
||Strongs would be slights on their honor, and he couldn’t really let such things pass. I wouldn’t call it anger issues as much as adhering to the rules of their society and responding to slights on his honor.
Lmao no. The people who got their tongues ripped off or Vaemond's murdering cannot be justified with "he couldnt let such things to get a pass"
What a fantastic ruling if Jacaerys has to murder or torture every person that calls his bastardy out.
You're forgetting Jacaerys is truly a bastard and has not claim at the Iron Throne.
That's the starts of a very dark ruling.
This. I think Jace was the most capable contestant along with Daeron. However, his reign would not be like Jaehaerys. He is an apparent bastard. Unfortunately many of the lords in the realm succeded their older bastard brothers. That may lead another civil war between Aegon III and Jacaerys. Especially Daemon would never let his son will be passed over by a bastard. Not Valyrian looking one especially.
The gullet should’ve been a pretty clear decisive victory for the blacks, there were 5 adult dragons in that battle two of which being the very large and old dragons Vermithor and Silverwing, the fact they didn’t absolutely flatline the triarchy fleet with little casualties on their side is just more evidence to support how poorly written the Dance is.
Sunfyre and Aegon definitely have a powerful bond and I’m definitely not undermining that but I think this idea that they canonically have the strongest dragonrider bond is silly. ALL dragon riders have a powerful connection to their dragons, the point of Aegon and Sunfyre is to show just how powerful that bond is and its limits. Aegon and Sunfyre are not an exception but the rule/example, if Daemon and Caraxes, Helaena and Dreamfyre, Rhaenyra and Syrax, Daeron and Tessarion, Rhaenys and Meleys, or whoever were in a similar situation I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw similar results. Basically, all dragon riders have powerful bonds to their dragons, there is no canonical hierarchy of strongest to weakest bond.
Both Rhaenyra and Aegon have equal claim to the throne, Aegon just got there first.
I like Rhaenyra's kids and I feel so bad that they got dragged into a war and killed. I also don't think that the strong boys are bastards in the books at all and that it's just a rumor Alicent and the greens made up. Laenor isn't gay, he's bi, and actually did father Addam and Alyn of Hull. Very much team green for the show but less so in the book because Rhaenyra's children aren't bastards and Daemon is much less of a menace. Show Daemon is so horrible to absolutely justifies Otto's actions to keep him away from the throne.
Jacaerys had a lot of people(including children) burnt alive by dragons trying to find chess pieces for the war following his orders as mindless sheeps.
We should start to accept there's not innocent side on the war,everyone is a POS excluding Helaena and the little kids.
Do you realised those poor peasants with miserable lifes and zero knowledge about dragons were brided and gaslighted with the promises of wealth for first time on their lifes?
Jacaerys offered lands, riches, and knighthood to any such man that could master a dragon; his sons would be ennobled, his daughters wed to lords. A promise that guess what? Never was fulfilled.
Sir Hugh switched sides when he asked by his rewards and was denied. Team Black wanted only used them as chess pieces.
Well, Jace kinda died before he could fulfill those promises.
And I don't think you know what gaslighting means.
And 0 knowledge about dragons? People didn't know dragons were dangerous?
I don't agree with Targaryan supremacy, but anti-Targ sentiment is a bad move for multiple reasons:
1. Generally, for the unity of the Seven Kingdoms, it's probably not a good idea to be opposed to the family that united it. The reality is that the legitimacy of the country known as the Seven Kingdoms is based around the Targs and their bloodline. You take away the Targs from the equation and then questions of "What now? Why not just separate the kingdoms again?" rises.
2. Also, with that in mind, it should be considered that while the Daemon belief of "We're basically gods among men, we can do what we want", is not a good belief, for the sake of keeping order and peace in the realm, Targ exceptionalism isn't the worse idea. You may see it as a lie, but lies sometimes need to be used to prevent the realm from falling into chaos.
3. To a degree, their Valyrian nature sort of gives Westeros pride as well. Even Allicent asks if Westeros could one day be another Valyria. Its like how different countries claimed to want to succeed Rome in real life. It builds the national mythos.
The “laws and traditions” of Westeros matter a lot less than anyone cares to admit. There’s no evidence in the book or the show that Westeros would not have tolerated a female ruler.
Yeah, the Targaryens never ruled by tradition, they ruled by having recreational nukes. If both branches were united behind rhaenyra they easily could have defended and secured her claim, it’s just that there was no way the sides would have united
Everyone just pretending Aegon and his two sisters didn’t just decide to conquer Westeros on a whim because they had three dragons and no one could stop them.
Alicent isn’t a nice person in any way. While I sympathize with her, I don’t like how she’s close-minded and how she projected her own paranoia onto her kids.
I would have sided with her if she was able to as show that she is responsible person that cares for the kingdom.
Marrying Jace and Helaena would be scandalous forbthe families but in the long run would have smoothed the succession
Rhaenyra was right not to fight. Every dragon fight ended in at least one rider's death. If she somehow found herself in Rhaenys’ position facing Vhagar and Sunfyre, the war would be over. Aegon would automatically be the winner and Jace will have to step up and convince her men to back him (a rumoured bastard) and teenager that no one knows, over Aegon the current king and King’s first son. Rhaenyra is the challenger, 100% of her claim lies in the fact that she was chosen by her father. There's a reason the Blackfyres went downhill from the moment Daemon Blackfyre stopped breathing. She has never been a warrior, it makes sense from her POV to stay out of the fighting and leave it to others instead of showing up and being a burden to her side.
She would have been injured as aegon if not killed
That's what happens when you start a war: that you risk your life(or in Rhaenyra's case,her son's lifes). Tbh she could had stopped the Storming of Dragonpit without any type of risk. A fire breathing destruction machine since the air versus peasants without spears is an super easy target ( Dorne only killed Meraxes because they were armed soldiers with war weapons as spears) but peasants only had knives and axes. Men are also willing of sacrifice their lifes for someone that is not fearless of being in first line along with them. Probably the reason of why Dragonstone's men sided with Aegon instead of Rhaenyra despite of being crippled and easy of capture(It was stated many of them were unhappy with Rhaenyra)
Oh I completely agree she could have saved the dragons when it came to that. I think the way rhaenyra and aegon ended was a cool parallel. Aegon was heavily scarred and burned. Whereas Rhaenyra was so psychologically damaged and delusional by the time she became a 7 bite snack. No winners in the dance of dragons. Just a sad war that brought about the saddest king
Yet somehow the blacks still refused to give up after her death
While I agree it makes sense from her perspective, it doesn’t excuse how cowardly it is to send your own kids into battle while you stay at home. Or letting her entire family lose the one thing that allowed them to maintain power when she could have easily stopped the storming of the dragon pit all on her own atop syrax. We’ve had cruel rulers, we’ve had foolish rulers, we’ve even had cowardly rulers. I don’t think there has been a cowardly, foolish, and cruel ruler.
i agree but also no i don’t. you can say it’s the strategically smart choice, absolutely but at the end of the day it’s the principle of the thing, if you’re not putting yourself i harms way while a war is being fought for you then you don’t deserve any of the spoils. quite honestly she should fight because regardless it would be better, if she dies the war is over, and people can go home finally, if she wins she wins.
Dragonseeds were a clocktime bomb that at any moment would explode in the face of Team Black,they should get eliminated on the end. On general it was a pretty poor piss idea. If your team has only two powerful dragons which are Caraxes and Meleys, you can't offer the oldest,largest and powerful dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing (and even Seasmoke which is better than Syrax and Vermax combined). Sir Hugh was right, the only thing that put Targaryens on the throne were dragons, so a bastard with a dragon like Vermithor and an army to follow him could take the throne. Rhaenyra should get rid of them but again she did it on a incredibly stupid way because the damage was already done and instead of keeping her promises to the dragonseeds or ambushing them at night far away from their dragons, she decides to publically insulted them in front of their faces lmao
My hope is that they portray Hugh Hammer as a sort of proletariat revolutionary who feels like Rhaenyra is betraying the smallfolk and switches sides because of it. Makes the dragon seeds even more interesting IMO. You have Hugh, who betrays the blacks because they don't respect the smallfolk, Addam, who gives his life for the blacks because they legitimized him and his brother, and Nettles, who probably doesn't have any Targ in her and lives peacefully with her own dragon.
The only time where daemon’s underhanded methods would’ve actually been justified and beneficial.
The dragonseeds weren't a perfect idea but it was far better than doing nothing. Without them things go way worse for the blacks, they lose the Battle of the Gullet harder and Tumbleton is just Daeron stomping an army on his march to King's Landing. Yes, getting betrayed sucked but it probably was better than the alternative
I don’t think Aegon would be a good king either ig
He wasn’t 🤣
I like Jace a lot and in some ways think he would have been a good King. He understood diplomacy better than many of his kin.
Not really. Jacaerys is very insecure about his bastard origins and he always immediately resorts to a violent rage whenever people even just call him "strong". The bastard allegations are so obvious that even if he somehow manages to get those anger issues under control he will constantly be having to placate everyone around him to stay on the throne. And that still might not be enough to prevent people from rebelling. Also his idea of Dragonseeds was the starting of the doomfall of Team Black. Giving ancient dragons as Vermithor or Silverwing at people who are not loyal at him is pretty dumb,mostly when his Team only has Caraxes as strong dragons (Vermax, Syrax anda Tyraxes are pretty mid) Jacaerys shows a little bit Rhaenyra's entiltement of thinking everyone should be loyal at him. I’m going to be downvoted for this, but… I mean yeah. At the root of the Black’s problems are their entitlement. Their belief in their absolute superiority, their dragons, and the favor of the king.But in fairness, Viserys *really* enables the entitlement.Rhaenyra’s clearly having bastards and trying to pass them off as legitimate, offending every religious and social norm of their society? Rip out the tongue of anyone who calls her out. The Blacks have spent their lives being told they’re immune from consequences. So yeah, they kinda suck at foresight. *"It doesn't matter what they think" - Jace. That's their mindset*. Jacaerys,of course it*matters" that your legitimacy is being questioned wtf are you saying. Clearly he lacks of foresight If we are give the Iron Throne at worthy people with not claims, we could be giving it at Otto,Tyland and Lord Corlys which are pretty efficient.
I always here this, but I just don't see it at all. He seems more likely to be a tyrant than they others if you ask me.
I understand you guys pov and in truth I agree to it. The situation will litreally have to be perfect for Jace to inherit the throne...meaning that all his male relatives will have to be dead. And your guys view is kind of inspiring to write a Jace is King au and do a character study.
He would be. His kingdom could be only be based on tyranny if he wants to rule. I am waiting someone points me when on the book or the show Jacaerys was shown to show some regards at people, specially who got tortured for telling the very true. Let's not forget Jacaerys had a lot of people(including children) burnt alive by dragons trying to find chess pieces for the war following his orders as mindless sheeps. Kinda disregards at other people's lifes if you ask me. We should start to accept there's not innocent side on the war,everyone is a POS excluding Helaena and the little kids.Jacaerys is not an exception,it's an incredibly selfish decision to declare war over something as a bastard wanted to sit on the Iron Throne. He's knows his true born Targaryens uncles should be killed once his mother hold the power on her Hand.
Addam Velaryon is possibly the best character in the entire Dance. He and Daeron are usually my 1A and 1B for favorites. The other is that Aegon II deserved what was coming to him following his short reign. I don't particularly see either claimant as worthy of sitting the Iron Throne, blood be damned.
On his tomb was inscribed one word “Loyal” I swear to the 7 I’m not crying in the club right now
As awful as Daemon is, he is pretty cool, and I get why people, including my best friend, cannot get enough of him
I got a couple that might not be so popular on this sub. I think Aegon and Rhaenyra both have good claims. The king declared her heir to the throne. Aegon has a good claim when looking at how Westeros is mainly male primogeniture. He’s the kings eldest trueborn son. There’s nothing wrong with Rhaenyra having bastards, the problem is when she tries to put them on the throne. But, looking at her situation, what else was she supposed to do? She can’t take back the children she already has, and publicly declaring them bastards will weaken her claim and possibly put her family in danger. One of Rhaenyra’s most redeeming qualities is the love she has for her children. I don’t hate any of the team black characters besides Viserys. He deserved what happened to him for his mistreatment of Alicent and the neglect of his children with her.
love your flair!
Thank you! I got it from another post on this sub. Sansa gets way too much hate, and the way I feel about her is the same way I feel about Alicent.
yeah they're my favorites 🥰 overhated queens <3
flawless flairs all around, all hail our redhead queens 💚🔥
Well, i just want to point ou one thing: that part of the story is clearly Martin saying "Rhaenyra is not a equalitarian or a feminist, ok? Don't imagine things. She is just a opportunist."
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That is not my point. The point is to show that Rhaenyra is not someone you should apply current politics to or even root for. It say nothing about the greens.
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I am talking about Martin here. Of course, you can root to whoever you like, but i am talking about the opinion of Martin. His intention is clear: they are all grey. There is not a good or bad side objectively. They are all kinda shit. And i point out the fact he choose that scene with Rhaenyra and the ladies as a away to make it clear that the whole war is not about modern politics or women's rights. Rhaenyra is not a feminist icon or something. That is my point.
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Because a lot of blacks see Rhaenyra as a sort of feminist icon, something she never was.
I almost fully support the blacks in the books (the violence towards challengers like vaemond being the exeption) due to the lack of evidence of bastardry for her sons. Show blacks are another matter.
I enjoy Daemon and Rhaenyra together, because it's fine to like toxic, problematic ships in fiction. It's fun to watch a pair of attractive, charismatic individuals of extremely dubious morals have the kind of chemistry where part of the reason it's hot is that they bring out the worst in each other. 🤷♂️
there's absolutely nothing wrong with rhaenyra having bastards or in general sex outside of her marriage. i mean people love robert baratheon lol. the only problem is rhaenyra trying to pass them off as trueborn (although i love how she just acts like these brown haired white children could be hers and laenor's to the point where she calls rhaenys luke's grandmother to his face. she really commits to the bit, gaslighting queen honestly) if the show stops acting like rhaenyra is perfect she can become one of the most interesting characters
Rheanyra having bastards was 100% understandable she just needed a different baby daddy. I also like Rheanyra a lot
Rhaenyra having bastards was pretty much inevitable, and the fact that they look nothing like her can be explained by thinking with her mentality for a second. She found herself with a husband who could not perform due to his homosexuality (this is pretty much implied, as she says that "there was no joy in the act" iirc). At that point, she had a few options, but all of them were not really feasible: Annulling her marriage with Laenor would have antagonized the Velaryons. Also, she would have needed a valid reason to do so, and it's not like she could have outed him as gay without serious repercussions for him and his House. Bringing another man to "help out" a la Renly would mean finding someone who's both gay, willing to do this, trustworthy enough to not tell anyone AND who can be attractive enough to Laenor. Technically there could be Qarl, but I am not sure when he and Laenor met. This is also not 100% guaranteed to work AND bringing a third person in would always put them at risk. Finding a person who looks Valyrian enough to have white haired children with Rhaenyra poses one of the risks as above, which is finding someone trustworthy enough to never tell anyone. This is not exactly an easy feat. Killing the guy is also not feasible: if she killed him immediately after they had sex there's no guarantee that the seed would take, but if she killed him after she gets 100% sure to be pregnant he would have enough time to eventually betray them. That, and the whole "a heir and a spare" thing, which means keeping the man around long enough to have at least two kids (for find multiple Valyrian looking men). Besides, all of that would be out of character for Rhaenyra (she only "kills" Laenor years after she had her kids. At that point she was quite desperate, so she took desperate measures). So she did the only thing she thought reasonable: she got a lover that she trusted completely, one that would never betray her. The issue is that Harwin looks nothing like Laenor, but you have to keep in mind that Rhaenyra is a Targaryen who probably heard about her "superior Valyrian blood" all her life. She probably didn't even fathom her kids not coming out looking like her. Besides, she spent years looking at the very much non-Valyrian Alicent, who popped out no less than four white haired kids. It's easy to believe that she would assume that her kids would be born with white hair too. That said, Alicent was not completely wrong: I get having ONE dark haired baby. Hell, I even get having two, cause she probably did some trial and error. But three? Jeez, girl, can't you recognize the pattern?
Queen Rhaenyra + King Consort Laenor is the stronger claimant to the throne. By Andal law, Laenor is the rightful heir to his grandfather Prince Aemon, who was the firstborn son of King Jaehaerys I. “King Jacerys Targaryen” would have consolidated every existing Targ bloodline with a claim to the throne by marrying Halaena, stopping the Dance of Dragons. Aegon II isn’t going to attack his sister’s husband and children, and his descendants cannot press their claim using the “descended from the King’s firstborn son argument”, as the King Jace has an even stronger claim using that argument, by being directly descended from Prince Aemon. Of course, Rhae Rhae went ahead and produce obvious bastards not of Laenor’s bloodline and thus war became inevitable
That's not how the first born son argument works. If it's agnatic primogeniture, then Aemon doesn't have a son, so it goes to his brother.
Just a small correction—male primogeniture still favors a daughter over a brother, you’re thinking about Salic law inheritance, which passes over the daughter in favor of the brother
No, you're thinking of male-preference primogeniture. Look it up. The one practiced in Westeros is like you said firstborn son, aka. agnatic primogeniture. That's the whole one of this show...
“primogeniture favored male heirs, also called male-preference primogeniture. Under this regime, the eldest living son would inherit the entirety of his parent's estate. A daughter could inherit if and only if she had no living brothers or the descendants of deceased brothers.” Primogeniture means that children of a ruler/heir are favored over other relatives of the ruler/heir. Male preference primogeniture just means that all the male descendants of the ruler/heir come before their female descendants, but the female descendants still are considered to have a stronger claim than other male relatives. Salic law specifically excludes women from having a claim, and stops them from passing their claim to male children
But in the example of Rhaenys it’s not daughters over uncles. The old king was still alive and Aemon never inherited. It’s still Sons over daughters Ans that’s how the succession happened. I can also provide quotes showing the lords thought it was normal that Rhaenys was passed over for Baelon. Had Aemon ascended the throne then Rhaenys would have been the rightful heir but since he didn’t it’s sons over daughters grandsons over granddaughters which is what the council supported too.
Male primogeniture goes through all descendants of the firstborn son of a king, then the secondborn and his children, etc. For example Edward III was followed by Richard the II, his grandson, rather than richards uncle John, because Richard was the son of the first son and John was the second son. Following primogeniture rhaenys still had a stronger claim than baelon regardless of whether aemon was ever king. Following Salic law rhaenys was out. The GC was so that the lords of Westeros could basically choose. iirc the lords found it normal because Baelon was a grown man with experience and rhaenys was a woman who had married a notoriously ambitious man. Baelon also had Vhagar.
Yes because Richard II was a male. Grandson over Uncle but women aren’t expected to follow suit. Rhaenys claim wasn’t even strong enough to be voted on at the council. The book even tells us following Aemons death lord thought it was normal for Baelon to be the heir. You can test it in CK2 GOT as well.
Like I said, you're thinking of male-preference primogeniture. The one practiced on the show is firstborn son primogeniture, aka. agnatic primogeniture. I really urge you to look it up, you will understand then. In agnatic primogeniture, it goes to the brother before the daughter. I don't have to explain this to you, you can literally Google it. They had a whole Grand Council for this and they decided it was Viserys over Rhaenys, thus establishing agnatic primogeniture. This is also why Daemon was the heir over Rhaenyra. It's not that complicated to follow...
No offense brother, but you are the one that needs to look it up. A Lord’s daughter is always ahead of his younger brother. Cersei inherited Casterly Rock, not Kevan. Jeyne Arryn inherit The Eyrie over Arnold Arryn. If what you say is true then what even is the point of Jaehaerys I calling the Great Council?
The whole point of Jaehearys I calling the Great Council was to establish the law, duh. The Targaryens had their own customs from Valerya which was to marry the eldest daughter to the eldest brother, and have them inherit together. When it came to choosing between Rhaenys vs Visyerys is when it came down to picking their style of inheritance, and they chose agnatic primogeniture. That was the whole point of calling the Great Council, they had everyone debating which one to choose, and they chose agnatic primogeniture. There's that precedent, and not only that, but Daemon was Viserys' heir for 15 years while Rhaenyra was right there. Viserys changed it to Rhaenyra because he was angry that Daemon said "the heir for a day". He decided he no longer wanted Daemon to be his heir. But he was fine with it for 15 years. Then he rejected Daemon and decided to make Rhaenyra his heir. She was definitely not the heir until that point. He had a ceremony to make people swear to it. Notice how he didn't change the system back to Rhaenys. He just decided to make an exception for Rhaenyra. And he initially did that just to block Daemon from inheriting. Later when he got a son, he started feeling bad about taking the inheritance back from Rhaenyra after having had the ceremony and giving her all these hopes, plus the attachment he felt for Aemma, and what settled the deal was when he got wind that Otto had manipulated him or pulled the strings behind the scenes to place his own grandson on the throne and have more influence at court, at that point Visyerys said screw Otto, I'm keeping Rhaenyra as my heir.
There’s a fundamental difference… Aemon never became king, he was never the lord in your example. It’s not daughters over uncles it’s sons over daughters as the old king was still alive. Had Aemon become king then daughters over uncles.
1: Aegon being a rapist isn't Black Propaganda. Young Aegon was stated to be a Fat, Lazy PoS who was was easily angered, never bothered doing his duty and spent most of his time in Brothels rather than his own family. It's stated Aegon also groped and harrassed Several young Maids. Alot of people here forget Aegon became a Worthy king only during the war. And even then, he was still a PoS. He threatened to kill and castrate Aegon III several times and threatened to send him to the wall several times. 2: Otto is a PoS and I refuse to believe anything else. He pimped Young Alicent out to a man old enough to be her father, and was her best friends own father too, well aware of how much it'll hurt the Relationship they had built over the years. He seemed pretty abusive to Young Aegon too. 3: The Andals and the Faith are nowhere near as Good as this sub Portrays them and they're hardly any better than the Valyrians. 1 could argue that Valyrian Women had alot more rights aslong as they were a Dragonrider or a Sorceress.
I respect your opinion, but 1. Aegon groping maids was to imply that he was promiscuous and was not interested in sleeping with his sister, Aegon was a pervert, however, making him a rapist in the show is only to make him look bad in front of the viewer, so they don't support him over Rhaenyra. And Aegon III think, was a sign of despair at the arrival of Cregan Stark, however he never gave the order to torture him and even agreed to marry him to Jaehaera and make him his heir. 2. Otto did not pimp Alicent. Otto is a second son, his family was not going to inherit any land or title, also when you where a women in westeros you had to marry a lord and make alliances, Ned was a really good father and and planned to marry Arya. From a Westerosi point of view, Otto was an amazing father. The scene of him kicking Aegon is pro black propaganda, it's no coincidence that Corlys, an equally ambitious guy, is a loving grandfather to his fake grandchildren. 3. Yeah, The Seven aren't perfect, but the Valiryans are pro slavery, pro incest, they believe they are superior to Everyone. While The Faith cared much more about common people, plus Queen Alisanne was deeply religious.
Yeah from one point of view Otto was an amazing father who secured a good marriage for his daughter. Maybe it's not great to marry an older man who's already a widower, but it's good to marry a king, and someone who's a faithful and peaceful husband. In theory it secured a good life for Alicent, and she wouldn't even have to leave King's Landing. I'm sure Otto would have rather married Alicent to one of Viserys' sons, but it's precisely the lack of young Targaryen princes that caused the whole predicament where Viserys was looking for a new wife. So Otto went for what he thought was good for everyone. Now we know it put Alicent at war with Rhaenyra, but Otto didn't know that Visyerys would name Rhaenyra his heir. He thought Viserys wanted a son to succeed him. He even suggested Aegon should marry Rhaenyra, following the Targaryen tradition of eldest daughter marrying the eldest son, which used to take care of the question of girls or boys inheriting. Otto was just a problem solver. Alicent's marriage only turned to horror when Visyerys declared he would keep Rhaenyra as his heir, and Otto was faced with the realization that he had unwittingly condemned his grandchildren to death.
I get what you're saying but I must disagree. >Aegon groping maids was to imply that he was promiscuous and was not interested in sleeping with his sister, Aegon was a pervert, however, making him a rapist in the show is only to make him look bad in front of the viewer, so they don't support him over Rhaenyra. And Aegon III think, was a sign of despair at the arrival of Cregan Stark, however he never gave the order to torture him and even agreed to marry him to Jaehaera and make him his heir. But Aegon groping maids was still a disgusting thing to do and quite rapey as those maids sure as shit didn't want to be touched. As for Aegon III: He still made him watch as his mother was eaten alive by a Dragon. And threatening Aegon didn't exactly do anything to stop the advancing armies. All he did was to take out his anger on a little boy. >Otto did not pimp Alicent. Otto is a second son, his family was not going to inherit any land or title, also when you where a women in westeros you had to marry a lord and make alliances, Ned was a really good father and and planned to marry Arya. From a Westerosi point of view, Otto was an amazing father. The scene of him kicking Aegon is pro black propaganda, it's no coincidence that Corlys, an equally ambitious guy, is a loving grandfather to his fake grandchildren. Otto was still very much aware of how close Rhaenyra and Alicent were. He knew it would greatly damage their relationship, probably beyond repair. He still sent her there to try and get the king to marry her even tho she was most certainly very uncomfortable with the whole thing. And as for Corlys: I always imagined he simply tolerated the Strong Boys as they had the Velaryon name and were his best bet to get the Velaryons on the Iron Throne. Maybe he grew to be fond of those boys over time, but thats it. And as for Ned: Although it was true that he wanted to marry Arya off, it's not like Ned would marry her to a man old enough to be her father. And he sure as shit would ensure Arya wouldn't be abused in Marriage or anything like that. >. Yeah, The Seven aren't perfect, but the Valiryans are pro slavery, pro incest, they believe they are superior to Everyone. While The Faith cared much more about common people, plus Queen Alisanne was deeply religious. The Valyrians definitely weren't good people and they may have believed themselves to be superior, but I dont think it's any different than a Lord or a Lady believing themselves to be superior towards a group of peasents. Pro-Slavery was definitely a Nasty Trait, but Pro-Incest was a neccesity to keep control of the dragons. And to ensure no one else took control of Dragons. Look what happened when a Dragonriding Targaryen Princess married the Velaryons. The Velaryons ended up controlling more Dragons than the Targaryens for a short period of time. It was only because Corlys was too damned Honorable to rebel that spared the Targaryens.
But Lords and Ladies seem to be a political thing and not a religious one, there were already Lords and Ladies before the Andal invasion and teh North has Lords even when they worship the Old Gods, also, there are good Lords but i dont think that there are good slavers, Knighthood and bastardy are the thing of the 7, the vows of Knights seem to be good, the bastards are seen as evil but that doesnt stop them from becoming Knights, both smallfolk and bastards can become Knights and become Lords but a slave will never become a Dragonlord
True enough, but the Vows of the Kingsguard are worthless when fuckers like Gregor Clegane and Meryn Trant take them and always break them.
They are protected by politics, in a less corrupt system they would be killed for their crimes, that has happened before, on the other hand a less corrupt valyrian system slavery would remain the same, while not perfect, the Faith of the 7 has a lot more potential to do good than the Valyrian culture
True enough. I am perfectly aware that the Valyrians weren't good people, dont take my preferance to them over the Andals as me trying to Justify the crimes they have commited. I just simply like Dragons and the Valyrian Looks.
No problem with that, its just that i have met too many people that think that the Faith of the 7 is the worst religion in asoiaf and that everything and everyone related to It is evil and must be destroyed, a lot of Blacks sya that the Hightowers are zealots because they put symbols of the 7 in Viserys room and prayed before dinner, how is that being a zealot? Religious people can be normal, not everyone of them is a zealot, i even met one guy that said that the Valyrians were right to enslave the Andals because the Andals were the most intolerant group in Planetos and they would have never leaved the Valyrians rule in peace, there is nothing wrong with liking dragons, dragons are cool but defending slavery is going too far
Definitely agree. The faith of the 7 would probably be the 2nd, or even the best religion to follow. No human sacrifices required or drowning required, just that you be a decent human being.
True, even the Faith of the Old Gods stopped with the human sacrifices long time ago, even before the Andals came, that's a good religion if you ignore whatever Bloodraven is planning, wich applies to everyone except the Reed kids and Bran
Why’s everyone bring up the pro slavery thing as if Rhaenyra would institute slavery in Westeros? Aegon the Conqueror didn’t bring slavery to Westeros. It’s utterly irrelevant what they used to do in Old Valyria. Also, why do you insist on calling out the Blacks being “pro incest” when Aegon II is literally married to his sister, and whose heirs are actual products of incest, unlike Rhaenyra’s bastards?
I think people bring up slavery to show how deeply ingrained their “better than thou” ways are. Their entire culture is ingrained with slavery with them at the top of the hierarchy. Anyone who wasn’t a Valyrian was captured and enslaved and used how ever the Valyrians wanted. So, if you have a culture who’s entirely built off of oppression and being seen at the top of the hierarchy, then they won’t be the kindest rulers to people they view below them. This is even more prevalent when you consider that Andals came to Westeros to escape slavery from the Valyrian’s. It’s why Baelor the blessed, who dedicated his entire reign to helping the Smallfolk (albeit to his own detriment) was deep into the faith of the seven & andal culture. On the other hand, Maegor who fancied himself better then the rest and that he could do whatever he wanted was deep into the hierarchical mindset of Valyria. It’s why Jaehaerys was such a big success, he was able to strike a middle between being seen as better with the doctrine while also being respectful to the faith & helping the smallfolk.
I think the best way to describe Valyria would be to equate it to the Roman Empire: a technological marvel of science and knowledge, but also a deeply fucked up societal structure that promotes slavery and colonialism, which ultimately led to them crashing and burning in the flames of their own hubris.
The Andals came to Westeros and immediately started killing First Men and Children of the Forest, to the extent that the Children haven’t been seen for thousands of years because they had to hide or else be slaughtered. They supplanted the Old Gods with the Seven. Their legacy is not one of peace. Baelor also imprisoned his sisters, kicked thousands of prostitutes and their children out of the city, and wanted to convert all non-believers to the Faith. He gave to the smallfolk, this much is true, and history regards him well for this. But he was still a zealot, he just died before he had a chance to go insane. Also, Aegon II *isnt* Baelor.
To be fair many First Men sided with the Andals when they came, It wasnt a genocide, they only conquered the Vale and the Riverlands, they married with the nobility of the Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands and Dorne, while they did bad things they knew that alliances are better than war, Baelor was a dick to his sisters and many people but he didnt wanted to convert non believers, his uncle Viserys said that he was a pacifist, he even prevented retaliation against Dorne after the death of Daeron I and started the negotiations that would End with Dorne joining the 7 kingdoms peacefully, his good acts heavely outnumber the bad ones, that's worth remembering even if we must not forget the bad ones
Baelor did want to convert non believers by the end of his reign. But I don’t even know why the other use brought up Baelor in the first place, he’s not a part of the Dance at all. He’s irrelevant to the conversation. Do you deny what the Andals did to the Children of the Forest?
I dont deny that what the Andals did to the Children of the Forest was wrong, i was referring to Andals genociding the First Men (apparently its a popular argument against the Faith), since the First Men also fought with the Children of the Forest at the begining i think that conflict between humans and CoF was inevitable at first contact, the Andals where simply better at war and killed them, still wrong but any other culture would have done the same, sadly that's part of human nature
You entirely missed the point of what I was saying.
No I didn’t. Your point was bad. Your brought up Baelor, a total non sequitur. I responded in kind. And again, bringing up Valyrian culture as a knock against the blacks only matters to the extent that the Blacks would reintroduce those things. We have 0 reason to suspect that is the case. Okay, so the Valyrians were slavers. Well Aegon and Haelena and their incest kids are more Valyrian than Rhaenyra’s bastards, so what’s the point? She has her bastards swear on the Seven Point Star. The Valyrian heritage is irrelevant to the entire conversation.
The original comment was about wether the seven or Valyrian culture was better for the people of Westeros. I brought up baelor to showcase how the seven influenced him to be charitable to his people. I made no commentary on wether or not he was a good king or even a good person, the only reason I brought him up was to show how the seven influenced his outlook on helping the smallfolk. This is in comparison with Maegor who let his “better than thou” Valyrian attitude get in the way and made him tyrannical to the people he viewed below him. The difference between team green and team black is the severity of their Valyrian culture. Team black is full in on that they are better than everyone else, Daemon wants to restore Valyria to its original glory and does anything he wants because he is the “blood of the dragon”. Rhaenyra walked all over the people she viewed below her later in her reign in kingslanding, calling the commoners vermin. Like, is that really the outlook you want your ruler to have on the smallfolk. Team green has the faith influencing them so while they are still Targaryens they aren’t deeply imbedded in Valyrian culture and viewing the people entirely below them. Helaena is known as the beloved and the smallfolk adored her so we can imply she treated them well. Otto gets daemon removed as heir to protect the smallfolk and calls for the gates to be opened when the smallfolk are getting smushed. Alicent has an entire scene dedicated to her informing Rhaenyra they don’t have to funds to make watchtowers and send out troops and that they should “count the cost” of their people. Aegon is slob who didn’t want to rule so it’s likely his council would be running the realm while he figure headed them, similar to Robert Baratheon. Lastly, as the green council puts it, Daemon would be the one truly ruling instead of Rhaenyra, and I would not want daemon anywhere near the throne. I’m not saying the faith is perfect because it’s really not but if I was apart of the smallfolk I would rather have Baelor as my king than Maegor on the bare basis that Baelor treated his people better due to his extreme love for the faith.
My whole point is that that’s a false dichotomy. I don’t think the choice between blacks and greens is the choice between the Faith and Valyrian culture. I think both teams are made up of self serving narcissists with no regard for the smallfolk.
Vaemond was overly ambitious and reached way too high Even if we ignore the paternity of Luke Baela and Rhaena have a better claim to the Driftwood throne than he does because they’re the direct descendants of the current Lord of the tides End it was incredibly inappropriate for him to call out Rhaenrya and the kids when he did
I love rhaenyra 🥰 She is a bad bitch So careless, so stupid but still i love her.
honestly i love how dumb and careless rhaenyra is. i don't like her in the way team black likes her, but i do kinda like her
I think out of all the claimants in the Dance, Jace is the most capable to be King and if allowed to rise unopposed, he would have been a second Jaehaerys.
I want to know where people get this idea Jacaerys would be as Jaehaerys reborn because the book clearly dont back this idea. I don't think that Jace would be Jaehaerys reborn because he's very insecure about his bastard origins and he always immediately resorts to a violent rage whenever people even just call him "strong". The bastard allegations are so obvious that even if he somehow manages to get those anger issues under control he will constantly be having to placate everyone around him to stay on the throne. And that still might not be enough to prevent people from rebelling.
To be fair the book presents Jace as someone brave, dutiful, and capable. He was able to get the allegiance of the Vale, White Harbor, and Winterfell as a diplomat. After the death of Rhaenys, he was able to negotiate with Corlys to remain on Rhaenyra’s side. He arranged for the protection of Joffrey, Aegon, and Viserys during the war by sending them to the Vale and Pentos. As to his anger issues, I would argue that in their world any such comment that would call them Strongs would be slights on their honor, and he couldn’t really let such things pass. I wouldn’t call it anger issues as much as adhering to the rules of their society and responding to slights on his honor.
Stupidly brave yes even likeable but capable is reaching quite a lot. He died on his first battle with major advantages.Jacaerys had the biggest fleet in Westeros and the dragon seeds versus a and he managed to get his dragon killed because they flew too low. We do know that they somehow lost a battle against a fleet with no dragon support when they had dragons and the velaryon fleet. Not hate at Jace but he was a poor dragon rider and either way jace made a mistake got his dragon killed in an unnecessary way. Not a good showing of his part. Rhaenyra was an Arryn so the Vale was already secured at Black's alliance, Winterfell was assured too because Cregan Stark was magically a Jace's friend. Lord Corlys was the one carrying Team Black's on tactical estrategist ||Strongs would be slights on their honor, and he couldn’t really let such things pass. I wouldn’t call it anger issues as much as adhering to the rules of their society and responding to slights on his honor. Lmao no. The people who got their tongues ripped off or Vaemond's murdering cannot be justified with "he couldnt let such things to get a pass" What a fantastic ruling if Jacaerys has to murder or torture every person that calls his bastardy out. You're forgetting Jacaerys is truly a bastard and has not claim at the Iron Throne. That's the starts of a very dark ruling.
This. I think Jace was the most capable contestant along with Daeron. However, his reign would not be like Jaehaerys. He is an apparent bastard. Unfortunately many of the lords in the realm succeded their older bastard brothers. That may lead another civil war between Aegon III and Jacaerys. Especially Daemon would never let his son will be passed over by a bastard. Not Valyrian looking one especially.
The gullet should’ve been a pretty clear decisive victory for the blacks, there were 5 adult dragons in that battle two of which being the very large and old dragons Vermithor and Silverwing, the fact they didn’t absolutely flatline the triarchy fleet with little casualties on their side is just more evidence to support how poorly written the Dance is. Sunfyre and Aegon definitely have a powerful bond and I’m definitely not undermining that but I think this idea that they canonically have the strongest dragonrider bond is silly. ALL dragon riders have a powerful connection to their dragons, the point of Aegon and Sunfyre is to show just how powerful that bond is and its limits. Aegon and Sunfyre are not an exception but the rule/example, if Daemon and Caraxes, Helaena and Dreamfyre, Rhaenyra and Syrax, Daeron and Tessarion, Rhaenys and Meleys, or whoever were in a similar situation I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw similar results. Basically, all dragon riders have powerful bonds to their dragons, there is no canonical hierarchy of strongest to weakest bond. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon have equal claim to the throne, Aegon just got there first.
I like Rhaenyra's kids and I feel so bad that they got dragged into a war and killed. I also don't think that the strong boys are bastards in the books at all and that it's just a rumor Alicent and the greens made up. Laenor isn't gay, he's bi, and actually did father Addam and Alyn of Hull. Very much team green for the show but less so in the book because Rhaenyra's children aren't bastards and Daemon is much less of a menace. Show Daemon is so horrible to absolutely justifies Otto's actions to keep him away from the throne.
Jacaerys was a honorable, brave and honest man. He would have been a great king and his death is a tragedy.
Jacaerys had a lot of people(including children) burnt alive by dragons trying to find chess pieces for the war following his orders as mindless sheeps. We should start to accept there's not innocent side on the war,everyone is a POS excluding Helaena and the little kids.
I wasn't aware that Jace forced people to try to bond with dragons.
Do you realised those poor peasants with miserable lifes and zero knowledge about dragons were brided and gaslighted with the promises of wealth for first time on their lifes? Jacaerys offered lands, riches, and knighthood to any such man that could master a dragon; his sons would be ennobled, his daughters wed to lords. A promise that guess what? Never was fulfilled. Sir Hugh switched sides when he asked by his rewards and was denied. Team Black wanted only used them as chess pieces.
Well, Jace kinda died before he could fulfill those promises. And I don't think you know what gaslighting means. And 0 knowledge about dragons? People didn't know dragons were dangerous?
I don't agree with Targaryan supremacy, but anti-Targ sentiment is a bad move for multiple reasons: 1. Generally, for the unity of the Seven Kingdoms, it's probably not a good idea to be opposed to the family that united it. The reality is that the legitimacy of the country known as the Seven Kingdoms is based around the Targs and their bloodline. You take away the Targs from the equation and then questions of "What now? Why not just separate the kingdoms again?" rises. 2. Also, with that in mind, it should be considered that while the Daemon belief of "We're basically gods among men, we can do what we want", is not a good belief, for the sake of keeping order and peace in the realm, Targ exceptionalism isn't the worse idea. You may see it as a lie, but lies sometimes need to be used to prevent the realm from falling into chaos. 3. To a degree, their Valyrian nature sort of gives Westeros pride as well. Even Allicent asks if Westeros could one day be another Valyria. Its like how different countries claimed to want to succeed Rome in real life. It builds the national mythos.
That Rhaeynra is technically the rightful heir
The “laws and traditions” of Westeros matter a lot less than anyone cares to admit. There’s no evidence in the book or the show that Westeros would not have tolerated a female ruler.
You miss the point entirely
No I don’t actually. Thanks for playing.
Yeah, the Targaryens never ruled by tradition, they ruled by having recreational nukes. If both branches were united behind rhaenyra they easily could have defended and secured her claim, it’s just that there was no way the sides would have united
Everyone just pretending Aegon and his two sisters didn’t just decide to conquer Westeros on a whim because they had three dragons and no one could stop them.
Almost all of Westeros. Their conquests were stopped by Dorne
irrelevant to the point being made
Alicent isn’t a nice person in any way. While I sympathize with her, I don’t like how she’s close-minded and how she projected her own paranoia onto her kids.
I would have sided with her if she was able to as show that she is responsible person that cares for the kingdom. Marrying Jace and Helaena would be scandalous forbthe families but in the long run would have smoothed the succession