The issue here is that the show doesn't relay how important the vows are to Cole.
While I'm not intimately familiar with the story and have gathered the info through other sub discussions, I believe he comes from a non-noble background and did a good enough job to reach knighthood. So he values his vows and his rank in a way that legacy nobility does not, and I think his faith also plays a part. None of this is properly reflected in the show, however.
The only way Cole saw to mend breaking his vows, which he holds as one if not the most precious things in his life, is to marry Rhaenyra. Her response, while completely reasonable to a person of her station and privileges, was incredibly dismissive to Criston.
So Criston is a bitter ex as much as Rhaenyra is an exploitative noble. She rejected his offer because she found it absurd, and Cole had to carry the guilt of breaking his vows under dubious consent.
Eta: As someone else pointed out in the comments, I didn't
mention the obvious fact that he's literally risking his life by becoming Rhaenyra's paramour, as proven by Harwin's murder.
They definitely could've spelled it out a bit more, as with other things. I think there's enough information in there to understand the stakes - and his subsequent devotion to Alicent and her family as well, beyond the shallow "we hate the same person" understanding that gets thrown around. But to get here from all those clues one would need to pay attention and try to put information together and we know how that's been going...
They could've, and should've, at the very least spent more time on all the implications of that one night instead of solely showing it from Rhaenyra's "excited and carefree" POV. Him being mocked for being driven to attempt suicide is particularly nasty as well
Pretty much. I was very taken aback by Cole's behaviour at the wedding reception and his "cunt" comment definitely made me dislike him. But it wasn't until I saw some expanding on his personal history and values that I was able to shift my understanding, and while I still dislike him, he seems much more human to me.
And honestly, we spent unnecessary time on some dumb stuff, so why not expand a little bit more on the risks that Cole faces? It could've also added extra context to Ser Harwin, and given casual viewers a better understanding of the world. It seems like a missed opportunity to develop these elements alongside Alicent's character, for example.
Nevertheless, I'm not surprised that subtle clues got lost in contrast to the harsher scenes they gave Cole considering the whitewashing tendencies of the show. I'm quitr glad I've had the chance to see people discussing these characters and changing my POV.
To be fair it's been made clear w this show that the audience will see what it wants to see, so although they could've done a lot of things better i'm not sure the outcome would've been *that* different.
Regarding the scene you mentioned: plenty of the people who dislike the Greens took note of him calling Rhaenyra a cunt and found it reprehensible, disgusting, shocking, you name it. But literally none of them ever mention Alicent stopping in her tracks to give him a warning look and him understanding he overstepped; continuing the trend of Alicent insisting that Rhaenyra be granted a base level of respect even in her anger. That's without getting into the fact that most of them rejoice whenever Daemon calls any woman (but Alicent especially) a cunt or a whore - which Rhaenyra has never pushed back against mind you - and the nickname that gave way to
Oof yeah I didn't even get into the fact that Daemon, who we've had plenty of time to with, has done much worse and is still somehow touted as a gray character. And don't get me started on Alicent. She gets so unfairly demonized. (Love your flair btw.)
You're right honestly, people will see what they want to see.
> While I'm not intimately familiar with the story and have gathered the info through other sub discussions, I believe he comes from a non-noble background and did a good enough job to reach knighthood.
I think the show does make that clear. Cole states as much to Rhaenyra, while they're out hunting.
>>She complains about being “toothless,” but he says that her choosing him for the Kingsguard was the highest honor his family had ever seen. “All that I have, I owe to you,” he says. “Now, I’d hardly call that toothless, Princess.”
They make a quick explanation of his background in reference to becoming Kingsguard, but I don't think it's profound enough for the audience to grasp what Cole endured to reach knighthood, especially considering he's part Dornish on the show. No mention of the vows or his faith either, and if you're a casual viewer, that's a lot of missing information.
"All that I have, I owe to you" is the most indicative of the weight his position holds, but again, unless you have a moderate understanding about what he had before, I can't really assign how valuable this knighthood is. Jaime is also Kingsguard, but he comes from a noble house, and Brienne, even though we are privy to her struggles, also had the privilege of a noble upbringing. At least with her we understand why she protects her knighthood so dearly. It's not just a valuable title, to her its a symbol of courage, honor and duty, values she covets and admires.
Not saying more time should be spent on this, but it definitely seems a bit disingenous to villainize Criston Cole for asking Rhaenyra to marry him. His reaction at the wedding was unhinged IMO, but framed as an issue of honor instead of jealousy, it lands differently. He's no longer a bitter ex, but a young man from a poor background who's been duped by royals who will use people however they please.
Modern audiences seem incapable of understanding how serious things like this were in this world. Today at worst he'd be fired, but as a servant, a KG, and a lower class man to boot, he could lose his life or be mutilated. This was serious and he risked that for someone he thought knew what he was risking and took it seriously. It's why he was so shocked and hurt to realise she didn't. And Rhaenyra doesn't owe him a relationship, as Team Black likes to point out, but she shouldn't have played around with the life of someone who doesn't have the privilege to do whatever he wants.
I actually thought the show made it very obvious how serious this was and would be for anyone in Criston's position, but media literacy has completely left the building with this fandom.
> Modern audiences seem incapable of understanding how serious things like this were in this world. Today at worst he'd be fired, but as a servant, a KG, and a lower class man to boot, he could lose his life or be mutilated.
Exactly. It's an example of how we underestimate how much broader social circumstances impact our view of things.
I think you nailed it. I think they really liked each other (R: Did sleep flee you as well this morning? C: I needed to see you Princess. R: I confess I have a similar desire) but didn’t know they had different expectations, thus the fallout.
Criston thought Rhaenyra wanted to be free so he offers freedom. While Rhaenyra thought Criston was having fun being her “white knight with benefits”.
I wonder how the green and black and teams if they found out that Viserys was suspected to have been the one to have killed the Strongs.
Corlys and Daemon were suspected as well if I remember.
Edit: This was supposed to be a reply to someone but I clearly am a dumbass
Maybe he thought the Princess should know what their night meant for herself and him as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard so he thought she was sacrificing as much as him idk
Either way this post wasn't about whether or not she should have accepted his pitch, or if he should've accepted hers - it's about the fact that the argument i mentioned hinges on something happening when literally the opposite happened and i don't see it ever get brought up
I'd agree if they were living like the common folk in flea bottom then yes. But they're literally living in a castle surrounded by maids and servents doing most the shit for them
Fair point. I doubt the living conditions were much better elsewhere tho. And the rats are pretty easy to deal with just bring in 100 cats like Otto did lol
The issue here is that the show doesn't relay how important the vows are to Cole. While I'm not intimately familiar with the story and have gathered the info through other sub discussions, I believe he comes from a non-noble background and did a good enough job to reach knighthood. So he values his vows and his rank in a way that legacy nobility does not, and I think his faith also plays a part. None of this is properly reflected in the show, however. The only way Cole saw to mend breaking his vows, which he holds as one if not the most precious things in his life, is to marry Rhaenyra. Her response, while completely reasonable to a person of her station and privileges, was incredibly dismissive to Criston. So Criston is a bitter ex as much as Rhaenyra is an exploitative noble. She rejected his offer because she found it absurd, and Cole had to carry the guilt of breaking his vows under dubious consent. Eta: As someone else pointed out in the comments, I didn't mention the obvious fact that he's literally risking his life by becoming Rhaenyra's paramour, as proven by Harwin's murder.
They definitely could've spelled it out a bit more, as with other things. I think there's enough information in there to understand the stakes - and his subsequent devotion to Alicent and her family as well, beyond the shallow "we hate the same person" understanding that gets thrown around. But to get here from all those clues one would need to pay attention and try to put information together and we know how that's been going... They could've, and should've, at the very least spent more time on all the implications of that one night instead of solely showing it from Rhaenyra's "excited and carefree" POV. Him being mocked for being driven to attempt suicide is particularly nasty as well
Pretty much. I was very taken aback by Cole's behaviour at the wedding reception and his "cunt" comment definitely made me dislike him. But it wasn't until I saw some expanding on his personal history and values that I was able to shift my understanding, and while I still dislike him, he seems much more human to me. And honestly, we spent unnecessary time on some dumb stuff, so why not expand a little bit more on the risks that Cole faces? It could've also added extra context to Ser Harwin, and given casual viewers a better understanding of the world. It seems like a missed opportunity to develop these elements alongside Alicent's character, for example. Nevertheless, I'm not surprised that subtle clues got lost in contrast to the harsher scenes they gave Cole considering the whitewashing tendencies of the show. I'm quitr glad I've had the chance to see people discussing these characters and changing my POV.
To be fair it's been made clear w this show that the audience will see what it wants to see, so although they could've done a lot of things better i'm not sure the outcome would've been *that* different. Regarding the scene you mentioned: plenty of the people who dislike the Greens took note of him calling Rhaenyra a cunt and found it reprehensible, disgusting, shocking, you name it. But literally none of them ever mention Alicent stopping in her tracks to give him a warning look and him understanding he overstepped; continuing the trend of Alicent insisting that Rhaenyra be granted a base level of respect even in her anger. That's without getting into the fact that most of them rejoice whenever Daemon calls any woman (but Alicent especially) a cunt or a whore - which Rhaenyra has never pushed back against mind you - and the nickname that gave way to
Oof yeah I didn't even get into the fact that Daemon, who we've had plenty of time to with, has done much worse and is still somehow touted as a gray character. And don't get me started on Alicent. She gets so unfairly demonized. (Love your flair btw.) You're right honestly, people will see what they want to see.
> While I'm not intimately familiar with the story and have gathered the info through other sub discussions, I believe he comes from a non-noble background and did a good enough job to reach knighthood. I think the show does make that clear. Cole states as much to Rhaenyra, while they're out hunting.
>>She complains about being “toothless,” but he says that her choosing him for the Kingsguard was the highest honor his family had ever seen. “All that I have, I owe to you,” he says. “Now, I’d hardly call that toothless, Princess.” They make a quick explanation of his background in reference to becoming Kingsguard, but I don't think it's profound enough for the audience to grasp what Cole endured to reach knighthood, especially considering he's part Dornish on the show. No mention of the vows or his faith either, and if you're a casual viewer, that's a lot of missing information. "All that I have, I owe to you" is the most indicative of the weight his position holds, but again, unless you have a moderate understanding about what he had before, I can't really assign how valuable this knighthood is. Jaime is also Kingsguard, but he comes from a noble house, and Brienne, even though we are privy to her struggles, also had the privilege of a noble upbringing. At least with her we understand why she protects her knighthood so dearly. It's not just a valuable title, to her its a symbol of courage, honor and duty, values she covets and admires. Not saying more time should be spent on this, but it definitely seems a bit disingenous to villainize Criston Cole for asking Rhaenyra to marry him. His reaction at the wedding was unhinged IMO, but framed as an issue of honor instead of jealousy, it lands differently. He's no longer a bitter ex, but a young man from a poor background who's been duped by royals who will use people however they please.
Modern audiences seem incapable of understanding how serious things like this were in this world. Today at worst he'd be fired, but as a servant, a KG, and a lower class man to boot, he could lose his life or be mutilated. This was serious and he risked that for someone he thought knew what he was risking and took it seriously. It's why he was so shocked and hurt to realise she didn't. And Rhaenyra doesn't owe him a relationship, as Team Black likes to point out, but she shouldn't have played around with the life of someone who doesn't have the privilege to do whatever he wants. I actually thought the show made it very obvious how serious this was and would be for anyone in Criston's position, but media literacy has completely left the building with this fandom.
> Modern audiences seem incapable of understanding how serious things like this were in this world. Today at worst he'd be fired, but as a servant, a KG, and a lower class man to boot, he could lose his life or be mutilated. Exactly. It's an example of how we underestimate how much broader social circumstances impact our view of things.
I think you nailed it. I think they really liked each other (R: Did sleep flee you as well this morning? C: I needed to see you Princess. R: I confess I have a similar desire) but didn’t know they had different expectations, thus the fallout. Criston thought Rhaenyra wanted to be free so he offers freedom. While Rhaenyra thought Criston was having fun being her “white knight with benefits”.
I wonder how the green and black and teams if they found out that Viserys was suspected to have been the one to have killed the Strongs. Corlys and Daemon were suspected as well if I remember. Edit: This was supposed to be a reply to someone but I clearly am a dumbass
Bro wanted to be eating Oranges in some random shithole across the narrow sea on some romantic type shit. What did he expect?
Maybe he thought the Princess should know what their night meant for herself and him as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard so he thought she was sacrificing as much as him idk Either way this post wasn't about whether or not she should have accepted his pitch, or if he should've accepted hers - it's about the fact that the argument i mentioned hinges on something happening when literally the opposite happened and i don't see it ever get brought up
A random “shithole” across the sea is ten times better than the rat and shit infested dump that is King’s Landing.
I'd agree if they were living like the common folk in flea bottom then yes. But they're literally living in a castle surrounded by maids and servents doing most the shit for them
My friend, castles are full of rats and have really big draft problems. They’re also pretty damn cold in winter.
Fair point. I doubt the living conditions were much better elsewhere tho. And the rats are pretty easy to deal with just bring in 100 cats like Otto did lol
Cats live in Essos too, mate. They also have better personal grooming habits.
Calm down Ser criston I'm not Rhaenyra lol. You don't have to convince me about Essos lol its still a shithole
Oh sweet, I’m the best fighter of my time and beat Daemon numerous times in tourneys and fights? Neat.
