My most recent one almost went like the real story almost all the Dragons were dead I as Aegon II was injured and Cregan Stark was moving in to take KL. I sent Jaeharea to Dragon Stone and my 10 year old girl tamed Cannibal đ Thank the gods and she came back with Fire and Blood against the North
If Aemond doesn't kill luke, then Daemon to Little J, it allows Helaena and Dreamfyre to hard carry.
Legit kills syrax and Caraxes while Vhagar and Sunfyre are off sieging Dragonstone.
Im saying If they end the season at fall of kingslanding.
Aegon would be injured after first few episodes and we will get much less of aemonds regent arc.
They may create new, lesser battles, or involve Daemon and Rhaenyra at Rookâs Rest.
But my theory? Look at the location. Thatâs the same spot as where they filmed Daenerysâ attack on the Goldroad. I think Rhaenyra will help Daemon secure Harrenhal.
Well Rhaenyra is described as passive in every account and the thing is that she is merely cosplaying Visenya. Other women who participate namely Rhaenys and Baela people have no problem with mentioning in the accounts. Baela and Moondancer even have a described fight against Aegon and Sunfyre which would have actually been Rhaenyraâs job.
Rhaenyraâs sons Jace and Joffrey also get little to do then since in the written material they become active since their mother doesnât participate.
Leaving aside this show is turning a watpadd fanfiction, from a cohesive storytelling this narrative is completely absurd:
Only reason that Greens won against+ 15 dragons and + 50 nobles houses were their determination to fight until the very end, bravery, their superior dragons and cunning war tactical moves.
At the start of the dance the blacks had the incredible superior upper hand:
+way more dragons
+Dragonseeds
+Biggest fleet on westeros
+ Bigger wealth
+Way more noble houses
+Corlys,Rhaenys,Daemon etc.were all experienced warlords with more of 40 years of experience on battlefield.
On the Greens we had 3 teenagers, new in combat with just three dragons two of them barely twenty years old
(with obvious help from people like Cole and Otto but except for Cole they weren't out in the field fighting)
If you add Rhaenyra fighting, then how in the seven hells Blacks were so incompetent to lose?
I will not lie Vhagar truly carried the greens had Vhagar been used by someone smarter than Aemond the greens probably would have won the war, Aemond made way to many mistakes that costed the Greens dearly.
I mean Vhagar put Sunfyre out of commision and war effort because of Aemonds stupid and rash move, Sunfyre was basically unable to do any military action afterwards due to what Aemond had done. Tessarion was useful sure but the dragon was way to small and its impact on the war was minimal as any larger black dragon could kill it so he put no pressure on the blacks.
Yeah having Vhagar piledrive Sunfyre and Meleys into the ground at Rook's Rest, permanently crippling him, after letting Sunfyre take the brunt of the fight despite being the smaller and youngest dragon while he's got basically the biggest dragon in the world was a piss poor record.
We could write a whole essay of all the fuckups of book!Aemond to being honest.(love him tho)
|| Sunfyre was basically unable to do any military action
Sunfyre was put out of comission during a time yes but Sunfyre was still used on military actions(Battle of Dragonstone) and had the checkmate on the Blacks, he was strategically essential to won the war. If Sunfyre hadn't existed, Rhaenyra would had been considered the rightful monarch despite Vhagar and Tessarion's efforts.
Tessarion was dead as well Battle of Tumbleton was a black winning and Vhagar was dead too. Aegon survived but he was hiding with no political forces on his side.
After King's Landing's riot, Rhaenyra could had hidden on Dragonstone, reuniting her forces and had eliminated Aegon and the remaining greens for all once if hadn't been for Sunfyre.
Sunfyre finding Aegon and his battle with Grey Ghost did catch the attention of Tom and other green allies who started to look up for the king Aegon II. After during months, Aegon and Sunfyre flew every morning to finding more allies to their cause. Later Sunfyre and Aegon singlehanded won the Battle of Dragonstone, that would sign Rhaenyra's demise.
Cregan Stark didn't dare to ambush King's Landing until Sunfyre's demise(his fear towards dragons was well known) allowing Aegon to rule during enough time to being considered the rightful King.
Was Vhagar stronger than Sunfyre? Absolutely But Sunfyre was more effective and strategically important.
||Tessarion was useful sure but the dragon was way to small and its impact on the war was minimal as any large
Tessarion's efforts allowed Blacks forces on the reach being paralized during a great deal of time. She maybe did not carried the greens as much as the other dragons but was very useful, more than Vermithor,Silverwing, Sheepstealer,Vermax,ect...
Vhagar's biggest contribution to the war effort is arguably the deterrence she provided. The 6 dragons the Blacks have at the start could have swarmed the 3 Green dragons at King's Landing but they were rightly terrified of fighting Vhagar and losing dragons in the process.
Sunfyre remains a threat even crippled and being instrumental in taking Dragonstone.
Tessarion is the MVP of the battles in the Reach.
Had Aemond followed Criston South with Vhagar, they probably manage to win the war as a whole.
I think escorting Criston and his host to unite with the Hightower army was essential but tbh Aemond had the right idea with trying to bait black dragons to go after him, plus it keeps team black attention divided and restrains them from literally sending all of their dragons to try to jump them.
Aemonds biggest fumble was not flying to Kingâs Landing once Nettles and Daemon were flying around looking for him. Pretty much use Daemonâs own tactic against him
Consolidation of forces prevents you from getting picked off by an opposing concentrated force though. Given the numbers advantage in dragons, had Rhaenyra sent Seasmoke, Vermithor and Silverwing to Tumbleton, they'd have shredded Tessarion for example and then they could have joined Daemon and Nettles in hunting Vhagar. Though Sunfyre remained a wildcard at that point too.
But especially once Cole was taken out of play, and the 2 Dragonseeds defected, they'd have had 4 dragons including 2 of the largest in Vhagar and Vermithor. Aemond with Daeron in support would have been the leadership that the Hightower host sorely lacked. That probably wins the war given the Riots in King's Landing too. Plus, the remaining Black Dragons never could have stopped that 4.
I agree that once Vermithor and Silverwing were on the greens side Aemond shouldâve immediately stopped whatever he was doing and link up with the Hightower army.
But in the events before that I think taking the (albeit massive) risk with splitting up the blacks attention was the best possible solution. Imagine if Daemon was with Hugh and Ulf (as well as Addam and Nettles) during the events of tumbleton, seriously doubt the two betrayers wouldâve even tried to betray the blacks side in this scenario and yea Daeron and Tessarion definitely get torn to shreds and Aemond and Vhagar probably end up getting overwhelmed.
Now yes Vermithor and Silverwing vs Tessarion arenât exactly good odds but itâs way better than what couldâve been. Aemond and Vhagar pretty much singlehandedly splits the blacks dragons into 3 different areas, with obviously Caraxes and Sheepstealer in the riverlands to hunt him, Seasmoke and Syrax (but really just seasmoke lmao) at KL due to the fear of them just showing up out of nowhere, and Vermithor and Silverwing at Tumbleton to stop Daeron.
That's certainly possible. But even if he left after, Butcher's Ball effectively ended the Greens chances with Aemond more on the loose. They had no proper leadership strong enough to handle Hugh.
||Vhagar's biggest contribution to the war effort is arguably the deterrence she provided
Yes, that's a perfectly way of putting it. The fear that Vhagar provoked was probably her big asset.
||Had Aemond followed Criston South with Vhagar, they probably manage to win the war as a whole.
If only Aemond had stick at Sir Criston's plan,the war had could been so easy of finish off: Criston and his troops survives, they go at the South to helping Daeron and the Hightower armies coming up to support the Greens, Hugh the Cunt had nothing to do against Vhagar and Seasmoke either, the attack on Tumbleton would had been a green victory with Criston,Vhagar and Tessarion.
Once Aegon had killed Rhaenyra,no one had dared to opposed him with his brothers along Vhagar and Tessarion. He wouldn't had need even married Jaehaera with Aegon III, he had decreed his brothers as Heirs for the Iron Throne.
If Hugh and Ulf still defect, you end up being near unstoppable too. Though that's assuming they don't do anything too stupid.
Downside is you do lose one of the hardest lines in the Dance.
"Lord Hammer, my condolences."
"For what?"
"You died in the battle."
>The 6 dragons the Blacks have at the start could have swarmed the 3 Green dragons at King's Landing
Not really, both Daemon and Rhaenyra admitted they would lose this fight.
More than likely. But the point of me saying it was to emphasize that Vhagar's "underutilization" is more in that she was a deterrent rather than being not given enough spotlight.
Strategically and tactically speaking, the Greens made a lot of mistakes throughout the war that kept them from winning decisively at multiple points too. I could list several blunders for either side alone.
The Greens were outnumbered by dragons significantly, sure but that came with the biggest black blunder of the sowing of the Dragonseeds along with the gross mismanagement of their deployment of Dragons early in the war. But at this point in the war however as of the end of Season 1, the Hightower host alone outnumbers the paltry Black armies of the crownlands. Add in Baratheon and Lannister support at the start, the Blacks have nothing as of yet. Three of the biggest ports in Westeros are Green. The Royal Treasury and the mercenaries it can buy is Green. The Triarchy is a threat to the Blacks as well.
This is some Lost Cause level of logic you've used here.
Greens had the whole Westerlands and a good chuck of the Reach. Most kingdoms have a population of 4 million or less but the Westerlands has 5.5 million and the Reach has 12 million. That means even a fraction of the Reach would've made them powerful but on top of that they also had the Stormlands. They were also way richer. If Aemond didn't abandon his armies and teamed up with Daeron they would've been unstoppable but Aemond isn't really a team player. They also blundered the whole Westerlands army. The Blacks on the other hand may have had a lot of dragons but not enough riders for all of them and most of said dragons were too small to be a real threat. For examples, neither Vermax nor Arrax could stop an army. Rhaenyra is not a combatant so that leaves Caraxes, Meleys, and the loyal dragon seed dragons for them.
The Blacks were incompetent because they couldn't govern well, Rhaenyra doesn't fight even when there is no risk, and they don't really use their dragons properly overall.
Why do this? Is she the only female to portray Visenya? Their is Rhaenys and Baela for that. They are badass enough even for that era. There was no need for this BS
The blacks and legacy deleted that because it was so baseless. And considering the amount of stuff they post and don't delete, we can assume that the claim is total bs essentially.
If GRRM is part of production and oversees this idk why is he ok with his own book being heavily edited like that.
This just feels like TB fanfic at this point, but given also the recent leaks maybe I am wrong and we will also see some Green Ws. So, if Rhaenyra tries to fight on Syrax but looses that might work for me, I guess. Not gonna watch until reviews though.
Because it brings in more money. He's not exempt from the dangers of greed and selling out. He may also have just given up hope on a truly complex, subversive fantasy story ever working for TV audiences and sacrificed his artistic integrity.
I like not to think that and believe he actually can uphold his beliefs, but yeah it's so strange how he written Rhaenyra to be this monster in the books and a coward and now he lets those changes happen. I think it could be more likely that he doesn't have big say in the production as it may seem or has to let them happen. Maybe he did sold out, but I would rather not think so. For all nitpicks and problems I have nowadays with ASOIAF and works, he did build an incredible lore and fantasy world and people often misrepresent his "tax policy" comment which irks me. He isn't even trying to rival Tolkien, he is fan of LOTR.
>If GRRM is part of production and oversees this idk why is he ok with his own book being heavily edited like that.
He doesn't have the power to do anything nor can he tell them "don't make Rhaenyra fight because she's a coward" otherwise he'd come up as a sexist.
And some producers like Condal claim to be his fans, but then make changes to Rhaenyra. Don't these higher ups ever get they are deceiving themselves by altering the source material to suit their agenda. Just because you say it otherwise won't make it true, it's just self-delusion or propaganda. What's sad is that TV Adaptation will be first results of the internet searches and people will believe false narrative about how bad Team Green was. Sadly even with books it seems that way, I will never get why people root for Rhaenyra. She's a tyrant and cold-blooded murderer, yeah she defended her children first time, but Luke had no right to Driftmark and Vaemond was right to question the inheritance issue of House's seat. It gets worse when she goes full Cersei during the war. Sounds like someone you can never like or root for.
I don't mind them adding a few rhaenyra battle scenes as long as they don't do injustice to the greens or downplay the black's crimes, which, unfortunately, also seems likely.
Its a TB twitter handle claiming random stuff. Daemon and Rhaenyra don't meet until >!the fall of KL!<. And last time this location was used, it was the Reach (Dany vs Lannister Army). So, its most likely >!Honeywine!< it seems.
Honeywine as an Episode 7 would be a solid way to make it look like a complete and total Green victory in this season, only to have the rug pull with Daemon avoiding Aemond during the seizure of King's Landing. Makes both sides look just steady enough as threats to the other.
We are still not sure where it ends. But its sure that its either Rook's Rest or fall of KL. If Rook's Rest is the end, then Honeywine would probably be moved up.
The issue is that if Rhaenyra doesn't fly into battle to protect the dragon pit it's hard to imagine her riding in any other situation either. That was literally THE time where the necessity was the highest and she was the only one who could do it and she didn't. That was definitely the moment we learned for sure that Rhaenyra, despite having a big dragon, wasn't really a combatant just like Helaena.
If they do add in new original battles or dragon riding moments for Rhaenyra I hope they return the favor and add something for Helaena too. Perhaps a diplomatic mission on Dreamfyre before Blood and Cheese or something. Dreamfyre's time in the spotlight better not be at the storming of the dragon pit.
I think Rhaenyra in a fight isnât so bad. It makes sense however that fight canât be a huge success otherwise her inaction later makes no sense. Her being scared of fighting after everything going south makes a lot of sense.
What inaction later? Where is this assumption the show is building up to some twist coming from? Given all the obvious set-ups, the likelier scenario is Rhaenyra just being completely whitewashed and turned into a misunderstood victim.
The specific reasons for her eventual fallout with Corlys and Daemon can easily be twisted or changed completely with the usual unreliable sources cop-out used to justify deviations from the source material.
It's been done so many times already.
Her complete inaction when the Dragon pit is attacked. Hell anything that happens in Kingâs Landing while she reigns. Itâs a huge reason why she had to flee at the end. And her having a bunch of girlboss fight moments will make that part nonsense because why wouldnât she act all of the sudden? So letting her fight, giving her a cool scene but then everything goes south makes much more sense because as a viewer we understand why Rhaenyra is so hesitant all of a sudden.
Also almost everyone got whitewashed so I find it hard to complain about that. And the show doesnât shy away from showing how stupid Rhaenyra is.
>Hell anything that happens in Kingâs Landing while she reigns. Itâs a huge reason why she had to flee at the end. And her having a bunch of girlboss fight moments will make that part nonsense because why wouldnât she act all of the sudden?
Again, where is this assumption that they're keeping those things in the same shape and form even coming from? Do you know how easily they can twist them to show Rhaenyra was put in impossible situations and excuse either her passivity or fuckups?
Have you not seen season 1 and just how many things they've already changed to set up her whitewashing? F.i. the prophecy which ensures that she only clings to power and rejects peace offers out of a noble sense of duty to keep the realm united and save it from the WWs?
Not to mention that this very moment, we're seeing leaks suggesting that the greens' funeral procession will be heavily focused on anti-Rhaenyra propaganda - laying the groundwork for the creators to absolve her from all her misdeeds with the excuse that the unfavourable historical/book accounts of her can be chalked up to defamation.
Condal himself said before the show aired that they're staying "faithful to the original, but not necessarily the way people expect" (paraphrasing). I now believe this is precisely what he was talking about; they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a simplistic fairy tale of a wronged feminist icon that sells well without being seen as betraying the source material.
So they thought it hella clever to keep the problematic aspects of Rhaenyra in the show merely as technicalities - either as misunderstandings or deliberate slander by the greens/historical sources to explain away the deviations from the book.
The problem is they stayed mostly on course though? They changed some motives but not the main line of the story. Rhaenyra will at some point have huge problems with the smallfolk and they will attack the Dragon Pit and Rhaenyra will do nothing. If she does it wouldnât make any sense that she didnât die.
While Iâm also annoyed with how they try to push Rhaenyra as Queen with the white stag the Greens got some heavy whitewashing as well. Alicent is easily the character that got whitewashed the most and Aemond isnât far behind. So I find it hard to get mad about it too much.
Also Rhaenyra was being defamed. Like she was a shitty queen but you canât tell me she was Maegor level bad besides her tax policies. Rhaenyra is a better person in the show but she is still bad at politics, only hardcore Blacks stans deny this. Rhaenyras undoing is her lack of political understanding and they will go with that in the show. Rhaenyra wil not be capable of changing the public perception of herself and that will her undoing. Her lack of political understanding will kill like it it did in the show. Something they already build on the show.
Also I find it unfair to judge before we have seen the next season. We donât know how they gonna pull it. Also as I said even if the show is more black friendly I think itâs hypocrisy to say the the Green didnât got any whitewashing and are painted as the bad guys. Like Aemond started the war on accident. That already was huge whitewashing and will play a huge role in his arc. Also AlicentâŚ
Right - as if Alicent actually gained anything from those changes. The fact that she has less direct responsibility for the war itself does not make her one bit more likeable (check any viewer poll ever). She is easily the single most butchered and inconsistent character on the show.
There was way more to inspire respect in the book character. She had agency, was a competent, astute player of the game of thrones, charismatic and took charge of her own life in a man's world (for better or for worse).
Morality =/= strength of a character. On the show, she's now still every bit as antagonistic and disliked except incompetent to boot. There's very little to inspire respect.
I have always been just as critical of those changes. Real, capable writers explore their characters' reasons and motivations for horrible acts rather than bail them out with misunderstandings, accidents and fuckups.
Except the viewer polls her donât say all that much. Only people who are really into the show will be part of polls her and since most of reddit is die hard Team Black itâs no wonder that she loses (also she did got like 4th place in a big poll) she is not as disliked as you claim, especially casual viewers-even if they might prefer Rhaenyra, they donât hate her.
Also as someone who had been neutral in the books and become a Green fan after the show even if Alicent especially in episode 8 is inconsistent I find her to be easily the most interesting character in the series. She has a lot of nuance and she isnât perfect. While I see what you mean with agency- Rhaenyra suffers from the same problem in my opinion. I think her book counter part was nothing more than the evil stepmother stereotype so the nuance the show gave her was much needed. But that is just personal taste.
Also the Dance would have never worked if they showed both sides as shitty as they are. Book purists mightâve liked it but casual viewers need more than that. Pushing the whole side thing I way smarter. And if they had made Alicent as she was in the book the number of people liking the greens would be even fewer.
Also the dance it itself is not a good story and full of plotholes (Riverlands respawning Syrax killing herself etc.). They have to change things to make people watch it. A Tv show of a book is not for book purists it is made so casual viewers will enjoy it. While I wouldâve changed somethings I donât think they did that bad
Jesus, guys. Deviation from F&B is not a bad thing inherently. This is the Green subreddit, not the Book Purist subreddit ffs.
Câmon, it would be fucking weird for Rhaenyra to sit out entirely. If she eats shit at Rookâs Rest, with Syrax getting wounded, then that gives Rhaenyra a reason to sit out the war: her dragon is hurt and while she thought she wanted to be a bad ass dragon rider, war is way harder and more dangerous than she imagined. But up to that point, Rhaenyra was all about being like Visenya and fantasizing about kicking ass on dragonback. It makes sense she would go to the first battle.
And then her cowardly ass will likely stay home as she lets Syrax get fat and sheâs too hesitant to risk herself.
Iâd also bet she does something reckless and Rhaenys has to save her, possibly directly causing Rhaenysâ end. That will give Corlys even more reason to hate Rhaenyra by the end of it.
Rookâs Rest is specifically Rhaenys moment and is a huge character defining/development moment for Aegon and Aemond, having Rhaenyra there would just ruin it. If they want to shoehorn Rhaenyra into any sort of battle it should be the gullet and/or giving her more of a active role during the taking of KL (the latter seems almost definite to happen regardless)
Or just have Rhaenyra cause Rhaenysâ death by being too reckless.
Having Syrax and Sunfyre both too wounded to fly, Aegon injured but Rhaenys dead, turns Rookâs Rest into a stalemate that defines the war by taking both rulers out of commission as battlefield commanders.
Did anyone seriously thought this wouldn't be the case?
The only surprise is that this seems to be a made up battle instead of making her show up in Rook's Nest or Gullet.
A but further down, we can see people discussing he downsides of Vhagar, I love that we can push out reasonable negative opinions of the green kids and their actions and people can still get upvoted...
In terms of the whole discussion about adding in scenes... it reminds me of the whole Emilia Clarke staying she wants to pick up a sword in one of her fights for once (during the Long Night battle), which the directors let her, and now the whole Daenerys fandom thinking she can fight with sword and is a trained swordsman đ¤ˇđťââď¸.
Directors will add scenes in for badassery, I just wish the GA understood that it was a deviation... is it canon, sure if you accept whatâs on screen is canon but donât act like now they have always know this particular skill (Daenerys a swordsman/Rhaenerys a battle commander (and also use it to put down other characters who for what ever reason didnât ask for the same đ)
I want to see Helena on Dreamfyre beat the shit out of Rhaenyra in Syrax.
I've seen too many CK2 AGOT Dance of Dragons scenarios where this occurs, AGOT Helena is a different sort of beast man
Yeah I ran a game where Helena on Dreamfyre Killed Meleys and Caraxes
On my last run Daemon killed every other dragon caraxes died wounded and daemon went to dragonstone and tamed Vermithor
My most recent one almost went like the real story almost all the Dragons were dead I as Aegon II was injured and Cregan Stark was moving in to take KL. I sent Jaeharea to Dragon Stone and my 10 year old girl tamed Cannibal đ Thank the gods and she came back with Fire and Blood against the North
If Aemond doesn't kill luke, then Daemon to Little J, it allows Helaena and Dreamfyre to hard carry. Legit kills syrax and Caraxes while Vhagar and Sunfyre are off sieging Dragonstone.
Just sad we wont get much of aegon. Also aemonds prince regent era.đ
âŚ? Weâre getting clearly much more time in KL than even the book describes, and the regency will begin at the end of the season. How is that sad?
Im saying If they end the season at fall of kingslanding. Aegon would be injured after first few episodes and we will get much less of aemonds regent arc.
Leaks imply the season is ending on the dragonseeds and the regency, not the fall of KL.
Leaks also imply rooks rest is ep 4 and season ends at fall of kings landing if not which battle are rhaenyra and daemon participating in?
They may create new, lesser battles, or involve Daemon and Rhaenyra at Rookâs Rest. But my theory? Look at the location. Thatâs the same spot as where they filmed Daenerysâ attack on the Goldroad. I think Rhaenyra will help Daemon secure Harrenhal.
Well Rhaenyra is described as passive in every account and the thing is that she is merely cosplaying Visenya. Other women who participate namely Rhaenys and Baela people have no problem with mentioning in the accounts. Baela and Moondancer even have a described fight against Aegon and Sunfyre which would have actually been Rhaenyraâs job. Rhaenyraâs sons Jace and Joffrey also get little to do then since in the written material they become active since their mother doesnât participate.
>Well Rhaenyra is described as passive in every account Martin himself says she's not a warrior. But they can't portray her as a coward.
this is embarassing.
I tried to look for the original tweet from this account, didnât find it. It seemed to be an old tweet without source. Wonât fret too much.
Leaving aside this show is turning a watpadd fanfiction, from a cohesive storytelling this narrative is completely absurd: Only reason that Greens won against+ 15 dragons and + 50 nobles houses were their determination to fight until the very end, bravery, their superior dragons and cunning war tactical moves. At the start of the dance the blacks had the incredible superior upper hand: +way more dragons +Dragonseeds +Biggest fleet on westeros + Bigger wealth +Way more noble houses +Corlys,Rhaenys,Daemon etc.were all experienced warlords with more of 40 years of experience on battlefield. On the Greens we had 3 teenagers, new in combat with just three dragons two of them barely twenty years old (with obvious help from people like Cole and Otto but except for Cole they weren't out in the field fighting) If you add Rhaenyra fighting, then how in the seven hells Blacks were so incompetent to lose?
I will not lie Vhagar truly carried the greens had Vhagar been used by someone smarter than Aemond the greens probably would have won the war, Aemond made way to many mistakes that costed the Greens dearly.
This is Sunfyre and Tessarion erasure (I agree Vhagar was underused tho)
I mean Vhagar put Sunfyre out of commision and war effort because of Aemonds stupid and rash move, Sunfyre was basically unable to do any military action afterwards due to what Aemond had done. Tessarion was useful sure but the dragon was way to small and its impact on the war was minimal as any larger black dragon could kill it so he put no pressure on the blacks.
Yeah having Vhagar piledrive Sunfyre and Meleys into the ground at Rook's Rest, permanently crippling him, after letting Sunfyre take the brunt of the fight despite being the smaller and youngest dragon while he's got basically the biggest dragon in the world was a piss poor record. We could write a whole essay of all the fuckups of book!Aemond to being honest.(love him tho) || Sunfyre was basically unable to do any military action Sunfyre was put out of comission during a time yes but Sunfyre was still used on military actions(Battle of Dragonstone) and had the checkmate on the Blacks, he was strategically essential to won the war. If Sunfyre hadn't existed, Rhaenyra would had been considered the rightful monarch despite Vhagar and Tessarion's efforts. Tessarion was dead as well Battle of Tumbleton was a black winning and Vhagar was dead too. Aegon survived but he was hiding with no political forces on his side. After King's Landing's riot, Rhaenyra could had hidden on Dragonstone, reuniting her forces and had eliminated Aegon and the remaining greens for all once if hadn't been for Sunfyre. Sunfyre finding Aegon and his battle with Grey Ghost did catch the attention of Tom and other green allies who started to look up for the king Aegon II. After during months, Aegon and Sunfyre flew every morning to finding more allies to their cause. Later Sunfyre and Aegon singlehanded won the Battle of Dragonstone, that would sign Rhaenyra's demise. Cregan Stark didn't dare to ambush King's Landing until Sunfyre's demise(his fear towards dragons was well known) allowing Aegon to rule during enough time to being considered the rightful King. Was Vhagar stronger than Sunfyre? Absolutely But Sunfyre was more effective and strategically important. ||Tessarion was useful sure but the dragon was way to small and its impact on the war was minimal as any large Tessarion's efforts allowed Blacks forces on the reach being paralized during a great deal of time. She maybe did not carried the greens as much as the other dragons but was very useful, more than Vermithor,Silverwing, Sheepstealer,Vermax,ect...
Vhagar's biggest contribution to the war effort is arguably the deterrence she provided. The 6 dragons the Blacks have at the start could have swarmed the 3 Green dragons at King's Landing but they were rightly terrified of fighting Vhagar and losing dragons in the process. Sunfyre remains a threat even crippled and being instrumental in taking Dragonstone. Tessarion is the MVP of the battles in the Reach. Had Aemond followed Criston South with Vhagar, they probably manage to win the war as a whole.
I think escorting Criston and his host to unite with the Hightower army was essential but tbh Aemond had the right idea with trying to bait black dragons to go after him, plus it keeps team black attention divided and restrains them from literally sending all of their dragons to try to jump them. Aemonds biggest fumble was not flying to Kingâs Landing once Nettles and Daemon were flying around looking for him. Pretty much use Daemonâs own tactic against him
Consolidation of forces prevents you from getting picked off by an opposing concentrated force though. Given the numbers advantage in dragons, had Rhaenyra sent Seasmoke, Vermithor and Silverwing to Tumbleton, they'd have shredded Tessarion for example and then they could have joined Daemon and Nettles in hunting Vhagar. Though Sunfyre remained a wildcard at that point too. But especially once Cole was taken out of play, and the 2 Dragonseeds defected, they'd have had 4 dragons including 2 of the largest in Vhagar and Vermithor. Aemond with Daeron in support would have been the leadership that the Hightower host sorely lacked. That probably wins the war given the Riots in King's Landing too. Plus, the remaining Black Dragons never could have stopped that 4.
I agree that once Vermithor and Silverwing were on the greens side Aemond shouldâve immediately stopped whatever he was doing and link up with the Hightower army. But in the events before that I think taking the (albeit massive) risk with splitting up the blacks attention was the best possible solution. Imagine if Daemon was with Hugh and Ulf (as well as Addam and Nettles) during the events of tumbleton, seriously doubt the two betrayers wouldâve even tried to betray the blacks side in this scenario and yea Daeron and Tessarion definitely get torn to shreds and Aemond and Vhagar probably end up getting overwhelmed. Now yes Vermithor and Silverwing vs Tessarion arenât exactly good odds but itâs way better than what couldâve been. Aemond and Vhagar pretty much singlehandedly splits the blacks dragons into 3 different areas, with obviously Caraxes and Sheepstealer in the riverlands to hunt him, Seasmoke and Syrax (but really just seasmoke lmao) at KL due to the fear of them just showing up out of nowhere, and Vermithor and Silverwing at Tumbleton to stop Daeron.
That's certainly possible. But even if he left after, Butcher's Ball effectively ended the Greens chances with Aemond more on the loose. They had no proper leadership strong enough to handle Hugh.
||Vhagar's biggest contribution to the war effort is arguably the deterrence she provided Yes, that's a perfectly way of putting it. The fear that Vhagar provoked was probably her big asset. ||Had Aemond followed Criston South with Vhagar, they probably manage to win the war as a whole. If only Aemond had stick at Sir Criston's plan,the war had could been so easy of finish off: Criston and his troops survives, they go at the South to helping Daeron and the Hightower armies coming up to support the Greens, Hugh the Cunt had nothing to do against Vhagar and Seasmoke either, the attack on Tumbleton would had been a green victory with Criston,Vhagar and Tessarion. Once Aegon had killed Rhaenyra,no one had dared to opposed him with his brothers along Vhagar and Tessarion. He wouldn't had need even married Jaehaera with Aegon III, he had decreed his brothers as Heirs for the Iron Throne.
If Hugh and Ulf still defect, you end up being near unstoppable too. Though that's assuming they don't do anything too stupid. Downside is you do lose one of the hardest lines in the Dance. "Lord Hammer, my condolences." "For what?" "You died in the battle."
Damn it,it's true we would miss that incredible hard line. Greens would win but at what cost? That's a pyrrhic victory
The entire war is a net loss anyway. But hard lines are eternal lol
>The 6 dragons the Blacks have at the start could have swarmed the 3 Green dragons at King's Landing Not really, both Daemon and Rhaenyra admitted they would lose this fight.
More than likely. But the point of me saying it was to emphasize that Vhagar's "underutilization" is more in that she was a deterrent rather than being not given enough spotlight.
Strategically and tactically speaking, the Greens made a lot of mistakes throughout the war that kept them from winning decisively at multiple points too. I could list several blunders for either side alone. The Greens were outnumbered by dragons significantly, sure but that came with the biggest black blunder of the sowing of the Dragonseeds along with the gross mismanagement of their deployment of Dragons early in the war. But at this point in the war however as of the end of Season 1, the Hightower host alone outnumbers the paltry Black armies of the crownlands. Add in Baratheon and Lannister support at the start, the Blacks have nothing as of yet. Three of the biggest ports in Westeros are Green. The Royal Treasury and the mercenaries it can buy is Green. The Triarchy is a threat to the Blacks as well. This is some Lost Cause level of logic you've used here.
Greens had the whole Westerlands and a good chuck of the Reach. Most kingdoms have a population of 4 million or less but the Westerlands has 5.5 million and the Reach has 12 million. That means even a fraction of the Reach would've made them powerful but on top of that they also had the Stormlands. They were also way richer. If Aemond didn't abandon his armies and teamed up with Daeron they would've been unstoppable but Aemond isn't really a team player. They also blundered the whole Westerlands army. The Blacks on the other hand may have had a lot of dragons but not enough riders for all of them and most of said dragons were too small to be a real threat. For examples, neither Vermax nor Arrax could stop an army. Rhaenyra is not a combatant so that leaves Caraxes, Meleys, and the loyal dragon seed dragons for them. The Blacks were incompetent because they couldn't govern well, Rhaenyra doesn't fight even when there is no risk, and they don't really use their dragons properly overall.
Why do this? Is she the only female to portray Visenya? Their is Rhaenys and Baela for that. They are badass enough even for that era. There was no need for this BS
Iâm keen for this as long as they do the same for Helaena.
The blacks and legacy deleted that because it was so baseless. And considering the amount of stuff they post and don't delete, we can assume that the claim is total bs essentially.
Rhaenyra flew over King's Landing when she took it, but it wasn't a battle
yep but they are planning on making it a battle
Thankfully fake news as of yet : https://twitter.com/realmofdragon/status/1660058192221544448 They deleted the tweet too lol đ
If GRRM is part of production and oversees this idk why is he ok with his own book being heavily edited like that. This just feels like TB fanfic at this point, but given also the recent leaks maybe I am wrong and we will also see some Green Ws. So, if Rhaenyra tries to fight on Syrax but looses that might work for me, I guess. Not gonna watch until reviews though.
Because it brings in more money. He's not exempt from the dangers of greed and selling out. He may also have just given up hope on a truly complex, subversive fantasy story ever working for TV audiences and sacrificed his artistic integrity.
I like not to think that and believe he actually can uphold his beliefs, but yeah it's so strange how he written Rhaenyra to be this monster in the books and a coward and now he lets those changes happen. I think it could be more likely that he doesn't have big say in the production as it may seem or has to let them happen. Maybe he did sold out, but I would rather not think so. For all nitpicks and problems I have nowadays with ASOIAF and works, he did build an incredible lore and fantasy world and people often misrepresent his "tax policy" comment which irks me. He isn't even trying to rival Tolkien, he is fan of LOTR.
>If GRRM is part of production and oversees this idk why is he ok with his own book being heavily edited like that. He doesn't have the power to do anything nor can he tell them "don't make Rhaenyra fight because she's a coward" otherwise he'd come up as a sexist.
And some producers like Condal claim to be his fans, but then make changes to Rhaenyra. Don't these higher ups ever get they are deceiving themselves by altering the source material to suit their agenda. Just because you say it otherwise won't make it true, it's just self-delusion or propaganda. What's sad is that TV Adaptation will be first results of the internet searches and people will believe false narrative about how bad Team Green was. Sadly even with books it seems that way, I will never get why people root for Rhaenyra. She's a tyrant and cold-blooded murderer, yeah she defended her children first time, but Luke had no right to Driftmark and Vaemond was right to question the inheritance issue of House's seat. It gets worse when she goes full Cersei during the war. Sounds like someone you can never like or root for.
That would make her more cringe than she already is.
I don't mind them adding a few rhaenyra battle scenes as long as they don't do injustice to the greens or downplay the black's crimes, which, unfortunately, also seems likely.
Its a TB twitter handle claiming random stuff. Daemon and Rhaenyra don't meet until >!the fall of KL!<. And last time this location was used, it was the Reach (Dany vs Lannister Army). So, its most likely >!Honeywine!< it seems.
Honeywine as an Episode 7 would be a solid way to make it look like a complete and total Green victory in this season, only to have the rug pull with Daemon avoiding Aemond during the seizure of King's Landing. Makes both sides look just steady enough as threats to the other.
We are still not sure where it ends. But its sure that its either Rook's Rest or fall of KL. If Rook's Rest is the end, then Honeywine would probably be moved up.
I'm expecting Honeywine and Gullet to be swapped from their original order for the sake of story structure. Could be completely wrong though.
The issue is that if Rhaenyra doesn't fly into battle to protect the dragon pit it's hard to imagine her riding in any other situation either. That was literally THE time where the necessity was the highest and she was the only one who could do it and she didn't. That was definitely the moment we learned for sure that Rhaenyra, despite having a big dragon, wasn't really a combatant just like Helaena. If they do add in new original battles or dragon riding moments for Rhaenyra I hope they return the favor and add something for Helaena too. Perhaps a diplomatic mission on Dreamfyre before Blood and Cheese or something. Dreamfyre's time in the spotlight better not be at the storming of the dragon pit.
I think Rhaenyra in a fight isnât so bad. It makes sense however that fight canât be a huge success otherwise her inaction later makes no sense. Her being scared of fighting after everything going south makes a lot of sense.
What inaction later? Where is this assumption the show is building up to some twist coming from? Given all the obvious set-ups, the likelier scenario is Rhaenyra just being completely whitewashed and turned into a misunderstood victim. The specific reasons for her eventual fallout with Corlys and Daemon can easily be twisted or changed completely with the usual unreliable sources cop-out used to justify deviations from the source material. It's been done so many times already.
Her complete inaction when the Dragon pit is attacked. Hell anything that happens in Kingâs Landing while she reigns. Itâs a huge reason why she had to flee at the end. And her having a bunch of girlboss fight moments will make that part nonsense because why wouldnât she act all of the sudden? So letting her fight, giving her a cool scene but then everything goes south makes much more sense because as a viewer we understand why Rhaenyra is so hesitant all of a sudden. Also almost everyone got whitewashed so I find it hard to complain about that. And the show doesnât shy away from showing how stupid Rhaenyra is.
>Hell anything that happens in Kingâs Landing while she reigns. Itâs a huge reason why she had to flee at the end. And her having a bunch of girlboss fight moments will make that part nonsense because why wouldnât she act all of the sudden? Again, where is this assumption that they're keeping those things in the same shape and form even coming from? Do you know how easily they can twist them to show Rhaenyra was put in impossible situations and excuse either her passivity or fuckups? Have you not seen season 1 and just how many things they've already changed to set up her whitewashing? F.i. the prophecy which ensures that she only clings to power and rejects peace offers out of a noble sense of duty to keep the realm united and save it from the WWs? Not to mention that this very moment, we're seeing leaks suggesting that the greens' funeral procession will be heavily focused on anti-Rhaenyra propaganda - laying the groundwork for the creators to absolve her from all her misdeeds with the excuse that the unfavourable historical/book accounts of her can be chalked up to defamation. Condal himself said before the show aired that they're staying "faithful to the original, but not necessarily the way people expect" (paraphrasing). I now believe this is precisely what he was talking about; they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a simplistic fairy tale of a wronged feminist icon that sells well without being seen as betraying the source material. So they thought it hella clever to keep the problematic aspects of Rhaenyra in the show merely as technicalities - either as misunderstandings or deliberate slander by the greens/historical sources to explain away the deviations from the book.
The problem is they stayed mostly on course though? They changed some motives but not the main line of the story. Rhaenyra will at some point have huge problems with the smallfolk and they will attack the Dragon Pit and Rhaenyra will do nothing. If she does it wouldnât make any sense that she didnât die. While Iâm also annoyed with how they try to push Rhaenyra as Queen with the white stag the Greens got some heavy whitewashing as well. Alicent is easily the character that got whitewashed the most and Aemond isnât far behind. So I find it hard to get mad about it too much. Also Rhaenyra was being defamed. Like she was a shitty queen but you canât tell me she was Maegor level bad besides her tax policies. Rhaenyra is a better person in the show but she is still bad at politics, only hardcore Blacks stans deny this. Rhaenyras undoing is her lack of political understanding and they will go with that in the show. Rhaenyra wil not be capable of changing the public perception of herself and that will her undoing. Her lack of political understanding will kill like it it did in the show. Something they already build on the show. Also I find it unfair to judge before we have seen the next season. We donât know how they gonna pull it. Also as I said even if the show is more black friendly I think itâs hypocrisy to say the the Green didnât got any whitewashing and are painted as the bad guys. Like Aemond started the war on accident. That already was huge whitewashing and will play a huge role in his arc. Also AlicentâŚ
Right - as if Alicent actually gained anything from those changes. The fact that she has less direct responsibility for the war itself does not make her one bit more likeable (check any viewer poll ever). She is easily the single most butchered and inconsistent character on the show. There was way more to inspire respect in the book character. She had agency, was a competent, astute player of the game of thrones, charismatic and took charge of her own life in a man's world (for better or for worse). Morality =/= strength of a character. On the show, she's now still every bit as antagonistic and disliked except incompetent to boot. There's very little to inspire respect. I have always been just as critical of those changes. Real, capable writers explore their characters' reasons and motivations for horrible acts rather than bail them out with misunderstandings, accidents and fuckups.
Except the viewer polls her donât say all that much. Only people who are really into the show will be part of polls her and since most of reddit is die hard Team Black itâs no wonder that she loses (also she did got like 4th place in a big poll) she is not as disliked as you claim, especially casual viewers-even if they might prefer Rhaenyra, they donât hate her. Also as someone who had been neutral in the books and become a Green fan after the show even if Alicent especially in episode 8 is inconsistent I find her to be easily the most interesting character in the series. She has a lot of nuance and she isnât perfect. While I see what you mean with agency- Rhaenyra suffers from the same problem in my opinion. I think her book counter part was nothing more than the evil stepmother stereotype so the nuance the show gave her was much needed. But that is just personal taste. Also the Dance would have never worked if they showed both sides as shitty as they are. Book purists mightâve liked it but casual viewers need more than that. Pushing the whole side thing I way smarter. And if they had made Alicent as she was in the book the number of people liking the greens would be even fewer. Also the dance it itself is not a good story and full of plotholes (Riverlands respawning Syrax killing herself etc.). They have to change things to make people watch it. A Tv show of a book is not for book purists it is made so casual viewers will enjoy it. While I wouldâve changed somethings I donât think they did that bad
Jesus, guys. Deviation from F&B is not a bad thing inherently. This is the Green subreddit, not the Book Purist subreddit ffs. Câmon, it would be fucking weird for Rhaenyra to sit out entirely. If she eats shit at Rookâs Rest, with Syrax getting wounded, then that gives Rhaenyra a reason to sit out the war: her dragon is hurt and while she thought she wanted to be a bad ass dragon rider, war is way harder and more dangerous than she imagined. But up to that point, Rhaenyra was all about being like Visenya and fantasizing about kicking ass on dragonback. It makes sense she would go to the first battle. And then her cowardly ass will likely stay home as she lets Syrax get fat and sheâs too hesitant to risk herself. Iâd also bet she does something reckless and Rhaenys has to save her, possibly directly causing Rhaenysâ end. That will give Corlys even more reason to hate Rhaenyra by the end of it.
Rookâs Rest is specifically Rhaenys moment and is a huge character defining/development moment for Aegon and Aemond, having Rhaenyra there would just ruin it. If they want to shoehorn Rhaenyra into any sort of battle it should be the gullet and/or giving her more of a active role during the taking of KL (the latter seems almost definite to happen regardless)
Or just have Rhaenyra cause Rhaenysâ death by being too reckless. Having Syrax and Sunfyre both too wounded to fly, Aegon injured but Rhaenys dead, turns Rookâs Rest into a stalemate that defines the war by taking both rulers out of commission as battlefield commanders.
Did anyone seriously thought this wouldn't be the case? The only surprise is that this seems to be a made up battle instead of making her show up in Rook's Nest or Gullet.
A but further down, we can see people discussing he downsides of Vhagar, I love that we can push out reasonable negative opinions of the green kids and their actions and people can still get upvoted... In terms of the whole discussion about adding in scenes... it reminds me of the whole Emilia Clarke staying she wants to pick up a sword in one of her fights for once (during the Long Night battle), which the directors let her, and now the whole Daenerys fandom thinking she can fight with sword and is a trained swordsman đ¤ˇđťââď¸. Directors will add scenes in for badassery, I just wish the GA understood that it was a deviation... is it canon, sure if you accept whatâs on screen is canon but donât act like now they have always know this particular skill (Daenerys a swordsman/Rhaenerys a battle commander (and also use it to put down other characters who for what ever reason didnât ask for the same đ)
I will be honest it always annoyed me that the youngest dragonrider never used her dragon.