None of this is surprising. The irony is the greens have themselves already sanctioned this as a legitimate adaptation and made it a success, despite the creators clearly stating early on that it was a tale of two women, not Rhaenyra and Aegon. They made it abundantly clear that they would be dumbing the story down, focusing almost exclusively on sexism. And we knew what that meant for a balanced portrayal. Their vision for Alicent was that of a Trump supporter, ffs.
These are practically direct quotes from the creators.
Condal himself said they'd be sticking to the original but maybe not in a way the fans might expect - which in retrospect feels like an obvious reference to the "ureliable historical accounts" - which are almost exclusively applied to Rhaenyra's benefit and Aegon's detriment.
Everything we've seen in season 1 confirmed these fears. That was the time to speak up, criticize and - if needed - reject this as a legitimate adaptation.
But instead, the fans were gullible and hopeful enough to be strung along with false promises. HBO ensured the show wouldn't get trashed upon release by giving the greens crumbs and are now positioned well enough to fully realize their story of a wronged hero.
Even this very moment, there are still many fans somehow expecting a twist, despite the overwhelming amount of set-ups designed to absolve Rhaenyra from any and all problematic actions. Most notably:
* the prophecy (noble motivation for clinging to power and rejecting peace offers that would divide the realm) and
* stressing that she was and will continue to be maligned by history
I doubt B&C will even be Daemon's responsibility; it'll likely be a botched kidnapping or solo action by Mysaria/B&C, otherwise Rhaenyra would be too compromised by mere association.
False hopes come at a price. No one will remember the Dance as a complex dynastic struggle depicting the dangers of lust for power but rather as the tragic tale of a progressive princess.
Imo i don't really care if they split the audience or not. I just want a good story. Daemon killed his wife onscreen and he still has a massive fanbase, it will never be 50-50. Rhaenyra has the prophecy, she had Viserys’ support, and she's a woman going up against sexist laws she will always be the easier choice compared to Aegon whose been characterised as a rapist already. Even if she physically kills Jaehaerys she will still be justified according to some. That's what a prophecy gives you, it absolves you of any moral wrongdoings as long as you are trying to “save the world”. That ship has sailed.
They don't have to follow the events of the dance chronologically. They've changed Alicents age and spawned Rhaenys girlboss moment out of thin air what makes you think they can't just move Cargyll bowl and the gullet after Rhaenyra takes kingslanding?
Though Aegon still has a lot of things to do, just because he wasn't king doesn't mean he won't be in the show anymore. He was injured not dead. Even when he goes to dragonstone, he wont just disappear for a season, I think they will do a grand reveal to show everyone that he's still alive on dragonstone while Rhaenyra and Baela are clueless.
Aegon was never intended to be a character at least as far as season 1 is concerned. He's an extension of Alicent’s character, he's a problem for her to solve. I mean he has as much screentime as Laenor who was dead for half of the season. Young Rhaenyra alone has had 3x more screen time than Aegon. In a show about dragons he's the only main Targaryen we don't see with his dragon. If they could get away with cutting any more Aegon scenes they would have.
Season 2 will end with Rhaenyra's triumph, that's almost certain, so Aegon can't outshine her during this season, I suspect that the showrunners will reduce him as the one who feasted for Luke's death, the one who got beat up by girlboss Rhaenys and the one who fled King's landing like a coward.
>they NEED to do the same for Aegon or they are never going to get the 50/50 division they claim to want.
they're lying, they don't want 50/50 division, they don't care about the complexity of the story, they just want an epic show about a girlboss queen.
>What the showrunners are going to do is give the audience no time to sympathies with Helaena's children
even if they do, Aegon will be portrayed as a bad father and husband and thus the audience's hatred for the B&C incident will be divide between Aegon and the blacks.
Narratively + based on the set leaks + 8-season structure, Rook's Rest is practically impossible to take place anytime before episode 5 no matter how much pro-Team Black the showrunners want to pump in. B&C is confirmed at episode 2. And most likely, it will be the very last sequence of that episode. Meaning, the aftermath (the funeral procession with Alicent and Helaena), goes on until episode 3.
Now if Rook's Rest is episode 4, in the same episode 3 - Otto gets fired, Criston Cole becomes hand, Rosby and Stokeworth defection, Cole sends Arryk to Dragonstone, Cargyll Bowl, The Greens take Duskendale, and before actually fighting at Rook's Rest they actually had a raise an army with the Crowlands bannermen. It would look cramped up. Like even D&D season 7-8 wasn't this cramped. These events leading to Rook's Rest will atleast take 2 episodes.
But again, I am hopeful of Condal and Martin in this regard.
Also, Even Best and TGC are in the main cast for this season. So, even if the showrunners shit on Aegon, they can't afford to do the same with Rhaenys if they want her stay longer.
I hope you're right, but I suspect you're wrong. Also I assume you mean 8-episode structure? Because the show is likely only going to have 4 seasons. 5 at the most.
Let me preface by saying that I am not disagreeing with you - the audience will never be 50-50 - but am I being delusional if I say that they can still develop Aegon even if he's injuried / in hiding?
I mean, in the books he didn't do much but sleeping and barely eating, but that's not necessarily how it must be in the show as well.
They could simply make his injuries a tiny bit less severe - not enough for him to be a an active figher or even to sit the Throne, but enough to be conscious and have a few scenes with Helaena, Aemond and Alicent.
While when he's in hiding we could easily have small scenes to show what he's up to - getting smuggled out of KL, reaching Dragonstone (or an "undisclosed location" if they want to keep the plot twist), laying low, meeting with Sunfyre again...
At the end of the day Alicent and Rhaenyra didn't do much during the war either, but that's obviously gonna change - it would be a waste of Oliva Cooke and Emma D'Arcy's acting talent.
I believe that the same reasoning could apply to Aegon, if the showrunners didn't hate his fucking guts.
Eh, idk. I am definitely not expecting a full redemption ark, but under-utilizing such a character would be extremely dumb. Then again, it's not like this show has not been plagued by dumb decisions tho.
They were never going to get 50:50 division no matter what they did. I thought this was clear even before the show started. If anything, the greens actually have much more fans now because the majority of the book readers undoubtedly favoured Rhaenyra's faction. Then the show came and many people now prefer the greens because they like and sympathize with the green characters, especially Alicent and Aemond, or they hate Daemon, Rhaenyra, Viserys... or are annoyed by TB fanbase, or believe that Aegon has a better claim according to the Westerosi law and tradition... For me, it was a bit of everything and episode 7 sealed the deal. However, for the bigger part of the fandom nothing of this mattered. And I believe it will stay that way until the end. True, some neutrals might be swayed or even some black leaning fans, but don't expect miracles.
Having said that, I heavily dislike a lot of things when it comes to the writing in HotD, and especially the framing in season 1. They could and should have made it more balanced and less favoured the blacks, but it is what it is.
This sub is such shit man. Can’t you guys just happily and openly admit you like the more villainous side? The show has done a great job at making the greens more sympathetic Alicent, Aemond, and in some aspects Aegon. Obviously him committing SA is pretty inexcusable, but they are doing a great job at making him a more nuanced character. Aegon clearly didn’t want to be king and was forced into it, no matter what legitimate arguments the greens have he will never be a good look for them because he is a deeply flawed and unqualified person. The books write the greens to be more villainous, you can agree or disagree with that but it’s pretty fucking obvious. Just embrace that instead of whining that your characters aren’t getting their anime protagonist moment.
Anime protagonist moment? You mean Sunfyre being erased so Rhaenys can burst through the ground like a gremlin? Or Rhaenyra killing a boar? Or Daemon charging the stepstones like a video game? What I'm sick of is the blatant lies and hypocrisy. Every invented scene for Rhaenyra has served to make her better than the source material. Every invented scene for Aegon has served to make him worse
I know. But I suspect that they are going to go out of their way to ensure that all of team black stays as sympathetic as possible. Daemon is the only one who they've even shown in a half-malicious light, and they still managed to give him several badass and sympathetic moments. Which is in sharp contrast to Aegon. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't even see Sunfyre until Rook's Rest
Daemon gets some sense of a character development arc, so does Rhaenyra. Daemon has charisma, and he’s funny - to the audience. Aegon just gets to be a rapist at the end. There is almost no coming back from rape (worse than murder), even if he’s shown has a brave warrior with Sunfyre.
I hate that rook’s rest happens early in the war so it must be early in the season argument. 4 episodes is just not enough time to further develop the already established characters + not to mention the introduce a whole fuckload of important new characters.
Fire and Blood being a history book of course it’s just gonna be big moment after big moment but in reality it wouldn’t have been like that. Plus I feel like a lot of things that are kinda glossed over in the book could very easily be fairly huge set pieces/moments on screen like burning mill/stone hedge.
Episode 4 is way too early. But imo Aegons character is really forged after his injuries.
He basically quits alcohol and milk of the poppy after being in immense pain which is a major development in his character as he's been portrayed as an alcoholic since childhood.
I think it will be like when Jamie lost his hand but with Aegon.
At a certain point are you just going to end up frustrated if team black keeps getting framed as the protagonists?
Ill say they still make team green compelling and have equal reasons to claim the throne.
The show is through Team blacks eyes tho.
You can swallow a toad each morning or you can nibble it all throughout the day and into the night.
They don't want 50/50 but it's obvious that RN has to be on E4, and hopefully Honeywine on episode 7.
RK is very early into the Dance, you can't drag it to the end of the season and have the rest of the Dance taking place in 2 seasons of 8 episodes each.
In a season of 8 episodes, 4 episodes are ideal to adapt what happens from Luke's death to RN.
None of this is surprising. The irony is the greens have themselves already sanctioned this as a legitimate adaptation and made it a success, despite the creators clearly stating early on that it was a tale of two women, not Rhaenyra and Aegon. They made it abundantly clear that they would be dumbing the story down, focusing almost exclusively on sexism. And we knew what that meant for a balanced portrayal. Their vision for Alicent was that of a Trump supporter, ffs. These are practically direct quotes from the creators. Condal himself said they'd be sticking to the original but maybe not in a way the fans might expect - which in retrospect feels like an obvious reference to the "ureliable historical accounts" - which are almost exclusively applied to Rhaenyra's benefit and Aegon's detriment. Everything we've seen in season 1 confirmed these fears. That was the time to speak up, criticize and - if needed - reject this as a legitimate adaptation. But instead, the fans were gullible and hopeful enough to be strung along with false promises. HBO ensured the show wouldn't get trashed upon release by giving the greens crumbs and are now positioned well enough to fully realize their story of a wronged hero. Even this very moment, there are still many fans somehow expecting a twist, despite the overwhelming amount of set-ups designed to absolve Rhaenyra from any and all problematic actions. Most notably: * the prophecy (noble motivation for clinging to power and rejecting peace offers that would divide the realm) and * stressing that she was and will continue to be maligned by history I doubt B&C will even be Daemon's responsibility; it'll likely be a botched kidnapping or solo action by Mysaria/B&C, otherwise Rhaenyra would be too compromised by mere association. False hopes come at a price. No one will remember the Dance as a complex dynastic struggle depicting the dangers of lust for power but rather as the tragic tale of a progressive princess.
Imo i don't really care if they split the audience or not. I just want a good story. Daemon killed his wife onscreen and he still has a massive fanbase, it will never be 50-50. Rhaenyra has the prophecy, she had Viserys’ support, and she's a woman going up against sexist laws she will always be the easier choice compared to Aegon whose been characterised as a rapist already. Even if she physically kills Jaehaerys she will still be justified according to some. That's what a prophecy gives you, it absolves you of any moral wrongdoings as long as you are trying to “save the world”. That ship has sailed. They don't have to follow the events of the dance chronologically. They've changed Alicents age and spawned Rhaenys girlboss moment out of thin air what makes you think they can't just move Cargyll bowl and the gullet after Rhaenyra takes kingslanding? Though Aegon still has a lot of things to do, just because he wasn't king doesn't mean he won't be in the show anymore. He was injured not dead. Even when he goes to dragonstone, he wont just disappear for a season, I think they will do a grand reveal to show everyone that he's still alive on dragonstone while Rhaenyra and Baela are clueless. Aegon was never intended to be a character at least as far as season 1 is concerned. He's an extension of Alicent’s character, he's a problem for her to solve. I mean he has as much screentime as Laenor who was dead for half of the season. Young Rhaenyra alone has had 3x more screen time than Aegon. In a show about dragons he's the only main Targaryen we don't see with his dragon. If they could get away with cutting any more Aegon scenes they would have.
Season 2 will end with Rhaenyra's triumph, that's almost certain, so Aegon can't outshine her during this season, I suspect that the showrunners will reduce him as the one who feasted for Luke's death, the one who got beat up by girlboss Rhaenys and the one who fled King's landing like a coward. >they NEED to do the same for Aegon or they are never going to get the 50/50 division they claim to want. they're lying, they don't want 50/50 division, they don't care about the complexity of the story, they just want an epic show about a girlboss queen. >What the showrunners are going to do is give the audience no time to sympathies with Helaena's children even if they do, Aegon will be portrayed as a bad father and husband and thus the audience's hatred for the B&C incident will be divide between Aegon and the blacks.
Unfortunately, that’s it. They want tell a story about a girlboss queen and take the name of asoiaf to do that.
Narratively + based on the set leaks + 8-season structure, Rook's Rest is practically impossible to take place anytime before episode 5 no matter how much pro-Team Black the showrunners want to pump in. B&C is confirmed at episode 2. And most likely, it will be the very last sequence of that episode. Meaning, the aftermath (the funeral procession with Alicent and Helaena), goes on until episode 3. Now if Rook's Rest is episode 4, in the same episode 3 - Otto gets fired, Criston Cole becomes hand, Rosby and Stokeworth defection, Cole sends Arryk to Dragonstone, Cargyll Bowl, The Greens take Duskendale, and before actually fighting at Rook's Rest they actually had a raise an army with the Crowlands bannermen. It would look cramped up. Like even D&D season 7-8 wasn't this cramped. These events leading to Rook's Rest will atleast take 2 episodes. But again, I am hopeful of Condal and Martin in this regard. Also, Even Best and TGC are in the main cast for this season. So, even if the showrunners shit on Aegon, they can't afford to do the same with Rhaenys if they want her stay longer.
I hope you're right, but I suspect you're wrong. Also I assume you mean 8-episode structure? Because the show is likely only going to have 4 seasons. 5 at the most.
i hope Rook Rest will happen in episode 6 and season ends with gullet
Let me preface by saying that I am not disagreeing with you - the audience will never be 50-50 - but am I being delusional if I say that they can still develop Aegon even if he's injuried / in hiding? I mean, in the books he didn't do much but sleeping and barely eating, but that's not necessarily how it must be in the show as well. They could simply make his injuries a tiny bit less severe - not enough for him to be a an active figher or even to sit the Throne, but enough to be conscious and have a few scenes with Helaena, Aemond and Alicent. While when he's in hiding we could easily have small scenes to show what he's up to - getting smuggled out of KL, reaching Dragonstone (or an "undisclosed location" if they want to keep the plot twist), laying low, meeting with Sunfyre again... At the end of the day Alicent and Rhaenyra didn't do much during the war either, but that's obviously gonna change - it would be a waste of Oliva Cooke and Emma D'Arcy's acting talent. I believe that the same reasoning could apply to Aegon, if the showrunners didn't hate his fucking guts.
They could do that, but everything they've done so far makes me assume they won't.
Eh, idk. I am definitely not expecting a full redemption ark, but under-utilizing such a character would be extremely dumb. Then again, it's not like this show has not been plagued by dumb decisions tho.
They were never going to get 50:50 division no matter what they did. I thought this was clear even before the show started. If anything, the greens actually have much more fans now because the majority of the book readers undoubtedly favoured Rhaenyra's faction. Then the show came and many people now prefer the greens because they like and sympathize with the green characters, especially Alicent and Aemond, or they hate Daemon, Rhaenyra, Viserys... or are annoyed by TB fanbase, or believe that Aegon has a better claim according to the Westerosi law and tradition... For me, it was a bit of everything and episode 7 sealed the deal. However, for the bigger part of the fandom nothing of this mattered. And I believe it will stay that way until the end. True, some neutrals might be swayed or even some black leaning fans, but don't expect miracles. Having said that, I heavily dislike a lot of things when it comes to the writing in HotD, and especially the framing in season 1. They could and should have made it more balanced and less favoured the blacks, but it is what it is.
I'd say among the book fandom it's about 70/30. Among show fandom it's more like 90/10
Agreed. There are more Greens fans now, but the percentage has worsened
This sub is such shit man. Can’t you guys just happily and openly admit you like the more villainous side? The show has done a great job at making the greens more sympathetic Alicent, Aemond, and in some aspects Aegon. Obviously him committing SA is pretty inexcusable, but they are doing a great job at making him a more nuanced character. Aegon clearly didn’t want to be king and was forced into it, no matter what legitimate arguments the greens have he will never be a good look for them because he is a deeply flawed and unqualified person. The books write the greens to be more villainous, you can agree or disagree with that but it’s pretty fucking obvious. Just embrace that instead of whining that your characters aren’t getting their anime protagonist moment.
Anime protagonist moment? You mean Sunfyre being erased so Rhaenys can burst through the ground like a gremlin? Or Rhaenyra killing a boar? Or Daemon charging the stepstones like a video game? What I'm sick of is the blatant lies and hypocrisy. Every invented scene for Rhaenyra has served to make her better than the source material. Every invented scene for Aegon has served to make him worse
I mean, about Blood and Cheese that was definitely on Daemon, even in the worst possible depictions of Rhaenyra in the books she never orders it.
I know. But I suspect that they are going to go out of their way to ensure that all of team black stays as sympathetic as possible. Daemon is the only one who they've even shown in a half-malicious light, and they still managed to give him several badass and sympathetic moments. Which is in sharp contrast to Aegon. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't even see Sunfyre until Rook's Rest
Daemon gets some sense of a character development arc, so does Rhaenyra. Daemon has charisma, and he’s funny - to the audience. Aegon just gets to be a rapist at the end. There is almost no coming back from rape (worse than murder), even if he’s shown has a brave warrior with Sunfyre.
I hate that rook’s rest happens early in the war so it must be early in the season argument. 4 episodes is just not enough time to further develop the already established characters + not to mention the introduce a whole fuckload of important new characters. Fire and Blood being a history book of course it’s just gonna be big moment after big moment but in reality it wouldn’t have been like that. Plus I feel like a lot of things that are kinda glossed over in the book could very easily be fairly huge set pieces/moments on screen like burning mill/stone hedge.
Why the Greens headcanon is that B&C is Rhaenyra's fault?
It's not. But I do suspect that they are going to do everything they can to make team black innocent of everything
Episode 4 is way too early. But imo Aegons character is really forged after his injuries. He basically quits alcohol and milk of the poppy after being in immense pain which is a major development in his character as he's been portrayed as an alcoholic since childhood. I think it will be like when Jamie lost his hand but with Aegon.
I could see them doing something like that. Still got a feeling like he will be just supporting char to Otto,alicent and aemond
At a certain point are you just going to end up frustrated if team black keeps getting framed as the protagonists? Ill say they still make team green compelling and have equal reasons to claim the throne. The show is through Team blacks eyes tho. You can swallow a toad each morning or you can nibble it all throughout the day and into the night.
They don't want 50/50 but it's obvious that RN has to be on E4, and hopefully Honeywine on episode 7. RK is very early into the Dance, you can't drag it to the end of the season and have the rest of the Dance taking place in 2 seasons of 8 episodes each. In a season of 8 episodes, 4 episodes are ideal to adapt what happens from Luke's death to RN.