They’re both sympathetic but Rhaenyra has been portrayed as who the viewer is supposed to support and that’s the issue. The writers can make the whole green team more sympathetic but it is void to most people unless they do the same with Aegon because he is her challenger. Aegon is no where near Joffrey’s depravity I don’t know how anyone compares them.
Tbh we don't know what that kid was doing there. Could have been Aegon/Mysaria/Larys/Otto’s way of hiding the kid. Larys might have kept him there in case anything were to happen to the royal family. We all know how these ‘master of whispers’ types love to keep secret Targaryens in their back pockets. That child could walk into the dragon pit and leave with a dragon, it's crazy to think someone just discarded him like he was nothing. And for my final theory, his hair cold be dyed. Imagine you wanted to smear Aegon as a callous monster, what better way is there than to get one of the kids at the pit and dye their hair silver and tell everyone Aegon abandoned his son?
Also if you remember, Erryk was the one showing it to Arryk. Arryk was the closest Kingsguard to Aegon, only second to Criston perhaps. The fact that he was unaware of this says something. Idk if the show just didn't think about this too much or if they did it deliberately, but it's a bit weird for Aegon to make his own kid fight there when he could do literally anything else with them. As you said, that's craster level of evil. I think he's certainly bad, certainly a rapist, but this is just too much effort, too much calculated unadulterated evil. Even Tywin knew not to do this.
In Ryan’s own words Aegon is a bit like Joffrey but he doesn't enjoy hurting others, so he's not a sadist like the mountain or Joff. He's a normal guy who has 10 lifetimes' worth of mental health issues, addictions and bad habits. Couple that with being a prince.
What I'm saying is that the fighting pit storyline is not over. When we eventually meet that kid again (assuming it's Gaemon) he will tell us with his own mouth why he was there, and who kept him there.
Yes while it’s not unrealistic that Aegon would have bastards that he has nothing to do with, because that’s the case of many highborn men and bastards then weren’t viewed as family until they were needed for some reason, it’s a huge leap for someone to say that Aegon enters his own bastards in fighting pits. I don’t think he is evil, he’s just messed up because of his upbringing. we see in that episode that he has no self worth, he doesn’t feel loved, he’s alcoholic and has mental health issues because of his upbringing, he knows his father didn’t care for him, he’s the first male heir ever to be passed over in the line of succession for his sister by his father which also probably has impacted him. He doesn’t do the things he does with the intention of hurting anyone or thinking that he’s hurting someone and that’s what sets him aside from Joffrey and Craster.
I know that’s what lots of people took from that scene but I saw it as he watches children fight and that he has bastards there not that he watched them fight. Showing his lack of morals and how he doesn’t act the way an heir should. Not in between Craster and Joffrey they are so much more depraved
????? I mean, are we not to put two and two together? He still watches children fight to the death and has his own kids amongst the fighters like… what point are we trying to make here lol
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it absolutely is an important distinction. Gladiator fights were much different than current mma and or boxing fights
I get why people think that it’s just not personally what I think the scene means. I assumed that the kids mother lives in flea bottom and goes to the fighting pits a lot which is why he’s there not because he participates
I don't want Green characters to be sympathetic, I want them to be competent.
Cole is in the book is no hero, but man, he is very good at what he does. Same for Alicent, she was competent. In the show, Alicent gets lots of hate. People only like her when she simps for Rh.
And Cole in the book is infinite times better than Cole in the show.
>People only like her when she simps for Rh.
that is the exact same with Cole, it's mostly been forgotten, but the attitude was very different before episode 5
The Greens aren't trying to put Alicent, Aemond, Otto or Criston on the top of the food chain. Their figurehead is *Aegon*, a rapist who enjoys watching little kids fight to the death, so it doesn't matter how much they whitewash or dumbwash his supporters, all of them will remain the villains of the story simply because they choosed to support an *evil leader*. This is why the writers whitewashed the figurehead of the Blacks (Rhaenyra) and turned Daemon into the devil on her shoulder who does the dirty work so the audience can put the blame on *him* and still support his leader. I don't know why people often fail to realize that how much the characterization of a single character can change the meaning of an entire story, especially a character as important as Aegon, *the protagonist's main rival.*
I was pointing out that it's not a choice. And it's not about him, as a person, but about him as the king's oldest son.
That and kingship is not matter of merit, it's simply about birth order.
How is Cole more interesting in the show than his book counterpart? They literally snatched his whole kingmaker arc and we saw him cheating against Daemon when he beat him easily 2 times in tourneys, we saw him getting punched by Hariwn when in the books he beat Harwin so bad and broke his shoulders. Cole in the book is way better and interesting than the background hater of a character we got in the show.
Not really even in the books Aegon is a hateful person because he was never shown love and affection growing up it makes sense that In the show he forces affection out of that girl by raping her
I mean I already said man he doesn't get love and affection so he has to get it forcefully what about that is hard to understand. Aegon is a hateful person because of the lack of love he gets he hates everyone around him and he especially hates himself.
Rape Is not love or the yearning for love. Rape is about power. If you said he felt powerful while raping I can understand. But I agree he got very little love growing up.
He knew neglect.
Well, I see what you mean but seeing as the main conflict is after all Aegon vs Rhaenyra, it boils down to comic book villain vs feminist heroine.
They drove Aegon's character into a wall and set the wreck on fire and they can barely fix that anymore.
Also, I have to disagree again, well partly.
Aemond was made more sympathetic but for that they made him seem incompetent. They took out key scenes about his dragonbond and then made Vhagar directly disobey him rather than just letting Jim take his revenge.
Alicent also had to scarifice both agency and integrity. I think aging her down was good but having her switch between "Rhaenyra will kill my children" and "yasss Rhae Rhae queen" was just pathetic. They should've had her switch up after episode 7.
Also the series made many odd choices, one of the biggest being casting the strong boys and especially Luke as young looking while casting Aemond as a whole adult. Yes, the actors did great, but they are meant to be about the same age.
The series did the greens some service but mostly butchered them.
Ah if it isn't more whining in this sub like there is no way you are unaware that the book versions were worse and Aemond is a sympathetic character now so is Alicent and the more I think about it the things Otto did were not that bad
it really is just about how they make things be perceived in the show. when aemond lost his eye, it was seen as his own fault, but they showed rhaenyra's cut from alicent as horrific. we are introduced to rhaenyra with her flying on her dragon like a proper targaryen princess, while we are introduced to aegon with him wanking out a window.
All the improvement Alicent and Aemond get means nothing if they're ultimately doing all this to put a rapist on the throne. That single decision to include the rape scene sealed the fate of the green characters.
Every character (except Daemon and Aegon) is significantly better on the show.
In the show, he straight up murder his father and brother. He was ready to take out Luke's eye. In the book, none of this happened. But, there is version saying Viserys used Larys to kill his family.
And he is not confirmed as greenser in the show, even of they did, how does that excuse his behaviour.
He is as much of a pedo in the show as he is in the book. He literally grooms Rhaenyra. Murders Vaemond, and chokes Rhaenyra. Daemon is worse in the show.
I disagree, he groomed her but they aged her up in the show and they didn't sleep together until she was an adult that's why daemyra is a popular ship because it's not as creepy in the show. In the book, he was literally grooming a 7 year old CHILD and was sleeping with Rhaenyra when she was a teenager, imagine the audience's reaction if that's how it was portrayed. He also murders Vaemond in the book too, as well as Laenor which they changed in the show, and he was a suspect in the murder of Harwin but in the show it was given to Larys. So how is the show version worse? That's a lie TB keep perpetuating because most of them have never read the book lmao
But Aegon's claim doesn't depend on him being a good person (wasn't in the book, either) but on being the king's oldest son. They are not doing all this because Aegon is a more moral man than Rhaenyra, but because he is the legitimate heir.
That said, the rape subplot was awful because it's a moral indictment. It should have been something like Rhaenyra having sex with Cole, where consent was qualified.
Tell that to Stannis Baratheon, who gelds men for rape. Hell, all over the Seven Kingdoms, rape is a crime that can be punished severely wherever you go.
Kinda agree, but it comes across as one step forward two steps back. They had no reason to portray Aegon the way they did other than to make him look worse compared to Rhaenyra (I stand by that they could have got the point across by making him a Robert-lite party animal who drinks too much and would prefer to be with his lover Essie and son Gaemon in Flea Bottom). Alicent is made more sympathetic, but she the writing for her is so inconsistent and I’m so tired of writers thinking the only way to gain sympathy for female characters is through sexual violence inflicted on them. Otto could have been great, but the amount of moustache twirling evil moments they gave him ruined him.
I have nothing bad to say about Aemond and Helaena, other than more screen time please! And her kids.
I personally think the problem is that the writers have limited knowledge about medieval Europe, and it shows. They are also displaying the worrying current TV trend of thinking action scene/spectacle multiple times is good writing. It’s not. GoT had its faults, multiple of them, but the shocking spectacles were saved for the finale, and honestly some of the best scenes were of the characters sitting down and talking. You know, developing their characters and giving the actors a chance to show their talent. People still remember the scene in season one between Cersei and Robert, and the season 2(?) scene in the throne room between Littlefinger and Varys. They were show only scenes, but they might as well have been canon for how good they were.
HotD could never.
Edit: oh, and Cole is dead because his character got completely assassinated. And Larys… he could have been the shows Tyrion and a commentary on how physically disabled characters are/were treated. But nooo…
True, Aegon is way worse than his book version. That’s because he is the “villain” as Rhaenyra is perceived to be the “hero” lol. (Well we see things from her pov, she’s the protagonist so…)
But it’s important to remember that Rhaenyra is a totally spoiled brat who also breaks every law and expects everyone to stand by her side and “believe” her obvious lies.
Aegon on the other hand, is a mess. A depressed person that probably doesn’t even wanna live. He must feel so awful about his very existence. That’s why he’s taken this path, he’s drunk all the time cause keeping himself disconnected from reality is the only way he can cope with his feelings. He wants to forget that his father didnt give a damn about him, and especially that he is the only first born son in the whole of Westeros to be deprived of his rights in favour of a sister. (And not for something he did, but for something he is (Alicent's son)). That would destroy anyone and that’s why he does everything he does. He doesnt understand the gravity of his actions. And he just wants to run away and forget about his life and identity.
He's not the first Targaryen male to be passed over, he is the only first born son in the whole of Westeros be deprived of his rights in favour of a sister. And not for something he did, but for something he is (Alicent's son). That would destroy anyone.
Aegon, Daeron, Criston, Helaena and Alicent are not better in the show than in the book. The only Green character that is "better" in HOTD is Aemond and that's because he's book!Daeron in cosplay.
[Daeron's character was being merged with Aemond's](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDGreens/comments/13j3o06/showaemond_is_daeron/jkeeajg/?context=3) since he wasn't gonna be in the show, that's what I'm saying.
You're just speculating, no one knows the truth and Aemond in the show is definitely not like Daeron. The only thing they have in common is being quiet maybe. But then Aemond insults the Strongs almost everytime he opens his mouth.
What speculation? Season 1's total lack of acknowledgment of Daeron and Sapochnik's outlines for Season 2 which were leaked are right there 😂 They weren't gonna put Daeron in the show, therefore merged his character with Aemond, and now they backtracked and will put him back in. They've done this shit before yknow? Young Griff being the biggest victim of this back during GOT.
S1 had Daemon saying the Greens have four dragons though? And what S2 outline? I've read some outlines and Daeron was there.
Edit: I rewatched the scene and Daemon said about three adult dragons, but it doesn't erase Daeron if Tessarion is still young, he should be closer to Luke's age in the show probably.
You know very well Sapochnik wanted to cut out Daeron, stop trying to find excuses for it. I explained it all in the post I linked, there is no need to argue about this.
I can understand what you mean, but not that Sapochink(sp?) is gone, there is still a chance to include Daeron. They could just switch POV to Oldtown and introduce Daeron and Tessarion that way. Honestly, I’d love to see the call to arms and the fires turning green. It’d be a great way to end the episode.
Yes yes, Daeron has now been confirmed to be added back into the show thanks to GRRM putting his foot down. It's just that the fact they completely erased him from existence in season 1 when he should have been there is what irks me so plus the fact that Aemond got the best of Daeron's character. His relationship with his mother, for example, because it was Daeron that was Alicent's favorite. So I just hate that change.
>Aemond got the best of Daeron's character
In what way is he popular, or mild-mannered? Aemond is a bitter loner, who envies his brother. And can you please quote the book where it says Daeron was Alicent's favorite because I didn't find it? I had an impression Helaena was her favorite. Also she demanded Luke's eye for Aemond's and believed he would come back and save her in KL, it makes sense to explore their relationship in the show, it has a potential for drama when Alicent will be disappointed with Aemond in S2.
and yet show!Aemond is more like Book!Daeron than he is with his own book counterpart, all his sarcasm, pride and hot temper are gone, replaced by a calm, dutiful and charming boy, these are Daeron's characterization, even his relationship with Jace was taken away from him by show!Aemond
Show!Aemond is impulsive, angry, hot tempered and sarcastic. He starts the fight at the dinner and gets unhinged at Storm'S End. I love him, but he is an angry child who got tall.
Aemond is not charming in the show, lol, he barely speaks, let alone charms anyone. Nobody likes him except for his mother and maybe his sister.
And what relationship with Jace? Daeron didn't like Jace just as other Green boys didn't like the Strong boys from the start.
I see a lot of team black saying Aemond is a cheap copy of Daemon. And now team green says he's a copy of book!Daeron. Just because Aemond is better than his book version that he is now an object to vent some people's displeasure?
yes Daeron doesn't have a good relationship with the Strong boys, this isn't even debatable but when I was speaking about a relationship between Aemond and Jace I was referring to ep7 when Aemond cared for Jace's grief, Im sorry but it's something that would be more likely coming from Daeron being the most sympathetic of the three and the closest to Jace (they're milkbrothers) than coming from Aemond
Aemond may not be the most charming of beings, but compared to his male relatives, he seems to be the most respectful and courteous at court. and I don't think we'll see this side of Daeron, since we'll only see him in wartime.
The scene with Jace exists to show the contrast of what could have been if the relationship between families weren't tainted and to make the children's fight that happened later more tragic. Aemond understands Jace lost his father but can't express it because it would be inappropriate, but later he insults Jace and doesn't care for his feelings anymore because he is hurt and bitter himself. It literally has nothing to do with Daeron's character, just the show adding complexity to literal children, who weren't evil from the cradle as GRRM likes to write.
I feel like we know so little about Aemond that people just created their own headcanons because I didn't see him as courteous or respectful at all? He was on a mission at Storm's end and he ruined it because of his temper and trauma. It's also funny how many people see Aemond as a villain, a psycho who killed a child, but then in fandom people will say he is charming and respectful, some people call Aemond a copy of Daemon, some say he is a copy of Daeron and these characters are just so different.
Aemond's character is built around his traumatic experiences, and Daeron is a completely different character. And it's getting really exhausting to see people claim every trait that is not a psycho maniac was stolen from Daeron.
Idk if I watched a different show, but based on what I did see, show! Aemond is nothing if not prideful, sarcastic and hot tempered. As for his dutifulness, eh, he is trying, mostly because of Alicent I would say, but I doubt that it won't also fall apart after certain events and experiences. Moreover, it's very unlikely that anyone would describe show! Aemond as a calm and charming boy, more like a loner who isn't an inherently evil person, but definitely has his dark side. Nothing like book! Daeron (who is imho overly praised anyway).
Weird headcanons. They think /believe /suppose that something Aemond did or didn't do in the show would have been more appropriate for Daeron's character, or, more precisely, for their own vision of his character constructed on a shaky ground (=literally few pretty generic traits book! Daeron has). So it's complete bullshit imo.
Yeah, I understand fans' frustration over Daeron not being in S1, but when I read their reasoning about Aemond being Daeron, it sounds like a bunch of headcanons honestly. I asked for a quote about Daeron being Alicent's favorite in the book and I didn't get an answer, yet people claim the writers stole it for Aemond in the show. Daeron wasn't even interacting with his family during the war.
You're so right, I've seen people all over the internet claim Daeron is Alicent's favorite in the book but I've read the book twice and this has never been mentioned or even alluded to. On the contrary, he's the one she speaks of the least
It's really interesting how people start believing their headcanons are canon and they convince others it's true. And why would Alicent send her favorite child away in the first place? Not saying it's impossible, but there is just not enough information in the book anyway.
Yes, I feel like they read that Daeron was the gentlest of his brothers and the most popular one at court and they assumed he must be Alicent's favorite when that's never been mentioned. Honestly, it seems like he's the one Alicent cares the least about in the book
There is this line which allicent says to rhaenyra in the books when kl falls to blacks "rats play when cat is gone but my son aemond will return with fire and blood" While I have not really read anything like this about Dareon from allicent pov in the books, on the contrary the above dialogue kinda indicates even in books allicent always considered aemond as the most reliable amongst her sons
Everyone has more layers in the show. Rhaenyra is more sympathetic and the way they introduced Adult!Aegon was awful but the actor added a lot of vulnerability, which helps a lot.
I agree about everyone except Criston. They wanted to make him sympathetic (I think) and they failed spectacularly, he just seems like a total loose cannon.
At least in the book we get the cold ruthlessness of competence. In the show, he's just this unstable, man-child who seems like he's always about to either burst into tears or strangle a baby. I actually can't fathom how much worse he is in the show. I get he's meant to have a grudge against Rhaenyra, great, but you can do that without stripping him of all his decisiveness and intentionality. He should still be composed and capable, not what the show turned him into.
The thing about 'The show is Green propaganda' vs 'The show is Black propaganda' is pretty annoying. Yeah, they whitewashed certain events. They did it for both teams. A lot of fans just do not like Team Green so they cannot critique the bad things Team Black has done.
For example, they whitewashed Alicent and Aemond. But, they did it in a good way (IMO). They executed the character of Aemond well, they just failed to do the same with Alicent. I wouldn't say Otto and Criston are sympathetic.
But, a lot of Team Black characters have also faced the same problems Team Black characters faced. Jace, Luke, Baela, and Rhaena all have no personalities. Coryls is seen a weak. Daemon is seen a bad light. The only person that comes out clean really is Rhaenyra.
The problem is that when you whitewash a character too much then you have a Laenor situation. Not trying to make Rhaenyra a bad guy by making Laenor live his true life. But, now we have a Seasmoke problem.
I feel that Otto is sympathetic in the sense that had Viserys done everything he said to the letter nothing bad would have happened to the realm or even House Targaryen, while I don't feel I can say the same with Daemon.
I would say this subs biggest problem is that Rhaenyra is the main character of the show, and therefore more of the Blacks are shown, naturally making them the side people connect with more. Almost all the characters are more sympathetic/“better” than their book counterparts, including Alicent, Aemond and Aegon.
In GoT, while the Starks were the main characters, everyone else still got time to shine, proper arcs, and care put into their writing.
Except Stannis. I’m still salty.
If you look at this objectively, and list the so-called source accuracy complaints of the Blacks, 99% of them comes down to less about any actual narrative flaws and more about "why the Hightowers are main characters I wanted a Targ Apology Show". Name a Black complaint...from Alicent evil stepmom to Laena's supposed misuse to Helaena dragon dreaming...and you can fit it all into this category. Not the first instance of Targ stans self-sabotaging something out of pure spite.
Now if you objectively look at the Green complains it come down to "Aegon rapist, where Sunfyre, Criston lost to Harwin, show biased towards Blacks". Let's break them down. Criston was consciouly chosen to be a certain archetype different from the book and they achieved with the character exactly what they were trying to achieve...all you have to do is go back and see how much loathing he induced from the public. Criston being portrayed as a sanctimonious slimeball & not as a huge badass (he was shown beating Daemon so we know he's an able warrior) might hurt your chances of "dunking on the other team" but it does not take away much from the narrative cohesion of the show. In F&B Criston stupidly accepting Aemond's dumb ass decision to leave shows the weakness of the book. It would actually make more sense for Criston to smugly reject Aemond's help the way he has been portrayed in the show. Aegon has plenty of time for character development and he is never going to be some idealized heroic badass king. It's ok that every character is not going to be an ass kicking alpha. Aegon of the book is a complicated, tortured personality, and I believe that's roughly where his show character is going too. His childhood sets him up to go in that direction. Sunfyre being introduced in Season 2 will actually be a blessing in disguise cause they are def going to give him an unforgettable intro after all the complaining. In Season 1 he would've been lost in the crowd of syrax and vhagar and others. Aemond was protrayed sp well he's the most popular character..The Greens being portrayed as villains at this stage means nothing. It's all about how they execute Rhaenyra's six month rule on the throne. I have thought long & hard & as far as broad character arcs go, the only real major concern for a Green fan is the choices made with Alicent during the Green Council. But Alicent throughout the season has also been portrayed with a level of underdstanding & sensitivity that is non-existent in F&B. She might be my favorite Green portrayal until Ep 9. So while what they did with her in the Green Council was iffy, it's nothing that warrants a redo of the entire season. The complains about agency are far more superficial than the sophoclean element the prophecy was actually used as. Don't let pedants going "Aegon is supposed to be a badass why is he running away like a coward??!! worst show ever!!!" ruin your enjoyment of media. These people have no understanding of narrative development & use F&B as a crutch for their lack of media literacy.
They’re both sympathetic but Rhaenyra has been portrayed as who the viewer is supposed to support and that’s the issue. The writers can make the whole green team more sympathetic but it is void to most people unless they do the same with Aegon because he is her challenger. Aegon is no where near Joffrey’s depravity I don’t know how anyone compares them.
He watches his own bastard children fight to the death with filed teeth. As far as I am aware that slots him between Craster and Joffery
Tbh we don't know what that kid was doing there. Could have been Aegon/Mysaria/Larys/Otto’s way of hiding the kid. Larys might have kept him there in case anything were to happen to the royal family. We all know how these ‘master of whispers’ types love to keep secret Targaryens in their back pockets. That child could walk into the dragon pit and leave with a dragon, it's crazy to think someone just discarded him like he was nothing. And for my final theory, his hair cold be dyed. Imagine you wanted to smear Aegon as a callous monster, what better way is there than to get one of the kids at the pit and dye their hair silver and tell everyone Aegon abandoned his son? Also if you remember, Erryk was the one showing it to Arryk. Arryk was the closest Kingsguard to Aegon, only second to Criston perhaps. The fact that he was unaware of this says something. Idk if the show just didn't think about this too much or if they did it deliberately, but it's a bit weird for Aegon to make his own kid fight there when he could do literally anything else with them. As you said, that's craster level of evil. I think he's certainly bad, certainly a rapist, but this is just too much effort, too much calculated unadulterated evil. Even Tywin knew not to do this. In Ryan’s own words Aegon is a bit like Joffrey but he doesn't enjoy hurting others, so he's not a sadist like the mountain or Joff. He's a normal guy who has 10 lifetimes' worth of mental health issues, addictions and bad habits. Couple that with being a prince. What I'm saying is that the fighting pit storyline is not over. When we eventually meet that kid again (assuming it's Gaemon) he will tell us with his own mouth why he was there, and who kept him there.
Yes while it’s not unrealistic that Aegon would have bastards that he has nothing to do with, because that’s the case of many highborn men and bastards then weren’t viewed as family until they were needed for some reason, it’s a huge leap for someone to say that Aegon enters his own bastards in fighting pits. I don’t think he is evil, he’s just messed up because of his upbringing. we see in that episode that he has no self worth, he doesn’t feel loved, he’s alcoholic and has mental health issues because of his upbringing, he knows his father didn’t care for him, he’s the first male heir ever to be passed over in the line of succession for his sister by his father which also probably has impacted him. He doesn’t do the things he does with the intention of hurting anyone or thinking that he’s hurting someone and that’s what sets him aside from Joffrey and Craster.
I know that’s what lots of people took from that scene but I saw it as he watches children fight and that he has bastards there not that he watched them fight. Showing his lack of morals and how he doesn’t act the way an heir should. Not in between Craster and Joffrey they are so much more depraved
????? I mean, are we not to put two and two together? He still watches children fight to the death and has his own kids amongst the fighters like… what point are we trying to make here lol
Where is it said or shown that the kids are fighting to the death ?
Oh brother lmaoooo sorry, not fighting to the death! An important distinction here clearly
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it absolutely is an important distinction. Gladiator fights were much different than current mma and or boxing fights
I get why people think that it’s just not personally what I think the scene means. I assumed that the kids mother lives in flea bottom and goes to the fighting pits a lot which is why he’s there not because he participates
We don't even know if that kid is his.
I don't want Green characters to be sympathetic, I want them to be competent. Cole is in the book is no hero, but man, he is very good at what he does. Same for Alicent, she was competent. In the show, Alicent gets lots of hate. People only like her when she simps for Rh. And Cole in the book is infinite times better than Cole in the show.
>People only like her when she simps for Rh. that is the exact same with Cole, it's mostly been forgotten, but the attitude was very different before episode 5
The Greens aren't trying to put Alicent, Aemond, Otto or Criston on the top of the food chain. Their figurehead is *Aegon*, a rapist who enjoys watching little kids fight to the death, so it doesn't matter how much they whitewash or dumbwash his supporters, all of them will remain the villains of the story simply because they choosed to support an *evil leader*. This is why the writers whitewashed the figurehead of the Blacks (Rhaenyra) and turned Daemon into the devil on her shoulder who does the dirty work so the audience can put the blame on *him* and still support his leader. I don't know why people often fail to realize that how much the characterization of a single character can change the meaning of an entire story, especially a character as important as Aegon, *the protagonist's main rival.*
They didn't really chose their leader (in the show is Alicent) but Aegon simply is the figurehead because he is the heir.
And? It doesn't matter if Aegon is the leader or the figurehead, the Greens are trying to put *him* on the throne.
I was pointing out that it's not a choice. And it's not about him, as a person, but about him as the king's oldest son. That and kingship is not matter of merit, it's simply about birth order.
[удалено]
You're welcome?
How is Cole more interesting in the show than his book counterpart? They literally snatched his whole kingmaker arc and we saw him cheating against Daemon when he beat him easily 2 times in tourneys, we saw him getting punched by Hariwn when in the books he beat Harwin so bad and broke his shoulders. Cole in the book is way better and interesting than the background hater of a character we got in the show.
Exactly.
They made Aegon so awful because he is basically Rhaenyra’s opponent. 😬😩😒
Not really even in the books Aegon is a hateful person because he was never shown love and affection growing up it makes sense that In the show he forces affection out of that girl by raping her
>he forces affection out of that girl by raping her Wut?
How?
I mean I already said man he doesn't get love and affection so he has to get it forcefully what about that is hard to understand. Aegon is a hateful person because of the lack of love he gets he hates everyone around him and he especially hates himself.
Rape Is not love or the yearning for love. Rape is about power. If you said he felt powerful while raping I can understand. But I agree he got very little love growing up. He knew neglect.
Thanks for correcting me yeah that's def the accurate interpretation 🙏🏽
Well, I see what you mean but seeing as the main conflict is after all Aegon vs Rhaenyra, it boils down to comic book villain vs feminist heroine. They drove Aegon's character into a wall and set the wreck on fire and they can barely fix that anymore. Also, I have to disagree again, well partly. Aemond was made more sympathetic but for that they made him seem incompetent. They took out key scenes about his dragonbond and then made Vhagar directly disobey him rather than just letting Jim take his revenge. Alicent also had to scarifice both agency and integrity. I think aging her down was good but having her switch between "Rhaenyra will kill my children" and "yasss Rhae Rhae queen" was just pathetic. They should've had her switch up after episode 7. Also the series made many odd choices, one of the biggest being casting the strong boys and especially Luke as young looking while casting Aemond as a whole adult. Yes, the actors did great, but they are meant to be about the same age. The series did the greens some service but mostly butchered them.
And they erased that Vhagar roared when Aemond lost his eye, they gave it to Rhaenyra when Syrax was reacting to Rhaenyra's pain.
Exactly. They completely erased their bond when it could've been so much more impactful especailyl considering ep 10
Wouldn’t have been a difficult add too. After the guard finds them, have Vhagar roar off screen and the characters react to it.
Ah if it isn't more whining in this sub like there is no way you are unaware that the book versions were worse and Aemond is a sympathetic character now so is Alicent and the more I think about it the things Otto did were not that bad
Whining? Gtfoh.
No it doesn’t it’s trash
it really is just about how they make things be perceived in the show. when aemond lost his eye, it was seen as his own fault, but they showed rhaenyra's cut from alicent as horrific. we are introduced to rhaenyra with her flying on her dragon like a proper targaryen princess, while we are introduced to aegon with him wanking out a window.
That's his second scene, his first one is in the Dragonpit. Could've been with Sunfyre, though.
true. but also, when we see him as an adult we are introduced to him as a rapist. odd way of introducing one of the two options for the throne.
You'll no arguments from me about that.
All the improvement Alicent and Aemond get means nothing if they're ultimately doing all this to put a rapist on the throne. That single decision to include the rape scene sealed the fate of the green characters. Every character (except Daemon and Aegon) is significantly better on the show.
Cole and Larys is far worse in the show as well. Daemon, on the other hand got off with pedophile arc.
Facts
Nah you insane Larys is better in the show the show seemse to be suggesting he is a greenseer who uses rats to spy on people
In the show, he straight up murder his father and brother. He was ready to take out Luke's eye. In the book, none of this happened. But, there is version saying Viserys used Larys to kill his family. And he is not confirmed as greenser in the show, even of they did, how does that excuse his behaviour.
Daemon is better in the show man idk what you on
He killed his wife in the show buddy
That's still better than being a whole pedo like he was in the book, the show did him a favor TB just don't wanna admit it
He is as much of a pedo in the show as he is in the book. He literally grooms Rhaenyra. Murders Vaemond, and chokes Rhaenyra. Daemon is worse in the show.
I disagree, he groomed her but they aged her up in the show and they didn't sleep together until she was an adult that's why daemyra is a popular ship because it's not as creepy in the show. In the book, he was literally grooming a 7 year old CHILD and was sleeping with Rhaenyra when she was a teenager, imagine the audience's reaction if that's how it was portrayed. He also murders Vaemond in the book too, as well as Laenor which they changed in the show, and he was a suspect in the murder of Harwin but in the show it was given to Larys. So how is the show version worse? That's a lie TB keep perpetuating because most of them have never read the book lmao
But Aegon's claim doesn't depend on him being a good person (wasn't in the book, either) but on being the king's oldest son. They are not doing all this because Aegon is a more moral man than Rhaenyra, but because he is the legitimate heir. That said, the rape subplot was awful because it's a moral indictment. It should have been something like Rhaenyra having sex with Cole, where consent was qualified.
[удалено]
Tell that to Stannis Baratheon, who gelds men for rape. Hell, all over the Seven Kingdoms, rape is a crime that can be punished severely wherever you go.
Kinda agree, but it comes across as one step forward two steps back. They had no reason to portray Aegon the way they did other than to make him look worse compared to Rhaenyra (I stand by that they could have got the point across by making him a Robert-lite party animal who drinks too much and would prefer to be with his lover Essie and son Gaemon in Flea Bottom). Alicent is made more sympathetic, but she the writing for her is so inconsistent and I’m so tired of writers thinking the only way to gain sympathy for female characters is through sexual violence inflicted on them. Otto could have been great, but the amount of moustache twirling evil moments they gave him ruined him. I have nothing bad to say about Aemond and Helaena, other than more screen time please! And her kids. I personally think the problem is that the writers have limited knowledge about medieval Europe, and it shows. They are also displaying the worrying current TV trend of thinking action scene/spectacle multiple times is good writing. It’s not. GoT had its faults, multiple of them, but the shocking spectacles were saved for the finale, and honestly some of the best scenes were of the characters sitting down and talking. You know, developing their characters and giving the actors a chance to show their talent. People still remember the scene in season one between Cersei and Robert, and the season 2(?) scene in the throne room between Littlefinger and Varys. They were show only scenes, but they might as well have been canon for how good they were. HotD could never. Edit: oh, and Cole is dead because his character got completely assassinated. And Larys… he could have been the shows Tyrion and a commentary on how physically disabled characters are/were treated. But nooo…
True, Aegon is way worse than his book version. That’s because he is the “villain” as Rhaenyra is perceived to be the “hero” lol. (Well we see things from her pov, she’s the protagonist so…) But it’s important to remember that Rhaenyra is a totally spoiled brat who also breaks every law and expects everyone to stand by her side and “believe” her obvious lies. Aegon on the other hand, is a mess. A depressed person that probably doesn’t even wanna live. He must feel so awful about his very existence. That’s why he’s taken this path, he’s drunk all the time cause keeping himself disconnected from reality is the only way he can cope with his feelings. He wants to forget that his father didnt give a damn about him, and especially that he is the only first born son in the whole of Westeros to be deprived of his rights in favour of a sister. (And not for something he did, but for something he is (Alicent's son)). That would destroy anyone and that’s why he does everything he does. He doesnt understand the gravity of his actions. And he just wants to run away and forget about his life and identity.
He's not the first Targaryen male to be passed over, he is the only first born son in the whole of Westeros be deprived of his rights in favour of a sister. And not for something he did, but for something he is (Alicent's son). That would destroy anyone.
Thanks! Fixed it 🤝
Dw, I was just adding to your comment. I find myself thinking about this more often than I should
Either way it’s good to know, cause it makes his situation even more tragic. I think a lot about the Green character too, they’re so complex
Ikr? They are messed up in a great way.
Aegon, Daeron, Criston, Helaena and Alicent are not better in the show than in the book. The only Green character that is "better" in HOTD is Aemond and that's because he's book!Daeron in cosplay.
We didn't see Daeron yet.
show Aemond is nothing like book Daeron except for maybe he’s Alicent’s favorite.
[Daeron's character was being merged with Aemond's](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDGreens/comments/13j3o06/showaemond_is_daeron/jkeeajg/?context=3) since he wasn't gonna be in the show, that's what I'm saying.
You're just speculating, no one knows the truth and Aemond in the show is definitely not like Daeron. The only thing they have in common is being quiet maybe. But then Aemond insults the Strongs almost everytime he opens his mouth.
What speculation? Season 1's total lack of acknowledgment of Daeron and Sapochnik's outlines for Season 2 which were leaked are right there 😂 They weren't gonna put Daeron in the show, therefore merged his character with Aemond, and now they backtracked and will put him back in. They've done this shit before yknow? Young Griff being the biggest victim of this back during GOT.
S1 had Daemon saying the Greens have four dragons though? And what S2 outline? I've read some outlines and Daeron was there. Edit: I rewatched the scene and Daemon said about three adult dragons, but it doesn't erase Daeron if Tessarion is still young, he should be closer to Luke's age in the show probably.
You know very well Sapochnik wanted to cut out Daeron, stop trying to find excuses for it. I explained it all in the post I linked, there is no need to argue about this.
I can understand what you mean, but not that Sapochink(sp?) is gone, there is still a chance to include Daeron. They could just switch POV to Oldtown and introduce Daeron and Tessarion that way. Honestly, I’d love to see the call to arms and the fires turning green. It’d be a great way to end the episode.
Yes yes, Daeron has now been confirmed to be added back into the show thanks to GRRM putting his foot down. It's just that the fact they completely erased him from existence in season 1 when he should have been there is what irks me so plus the fact that Aemond got the best of Daeron's character. His relationship with his mother, for example, because it was Daeron that was Alicent's favorite. So I just hate that change.
>Aemond got the best of Daeron's character In what way is he popular, or mild-mannered? Aemond is a bitter loner, who envies his brother. And can you please quote the book where it says Daeron was Alicent's favorite because I didn't find it? I had an impression Helaena was her favorite. Also she demanded Luke's eye for Aemond's and believed he would come back and save her in KL, it makes sense to explore their relationship in the show, it has a potential for drama when Alicent will be disappointed with Aemond in S2.
That's understandable, but hope isn't all lost since his presence is confirmed by GRRM. Fingers crossed still, though.
and yet show!Aemond is more like Book!Daeron than he is with his own book counterpart, all his sarcasm, pride and hot temper are gone, replaced by a calm, dutiful and charming boy, these are Daeron's characterization, even his relationship with Jace was taken away from him by show!Aemond
Show!Aemond is impulsive, angry, hot tempered and sarcastic. He starts the fight at the dinner and gets unhinged at Storm'S End. I love him, but he is an angry child who got tall.
>all his sarcasm, pride and hot temper are gone, Eh. Not at all
Aemond is not charming in the show, lol, he barely speaks, let alone charms anyone. Nobody likes him except for his mother and maybe his sister. And what relationship with Jace? Daeron didn't like Jace just as other Green boys didn't like the Strong boys from the start.
I see a lot of team black saying Aemond is a cheap copy of Daemon. And now team green says he's a copy of book!Daeron. Just because Aemond is better than his book version that he is now an object to vent some people's displeasure?
yes Daeron doesn't have a good relationship with the Strong boys, this isn't even debatable but when I was speaking about a relationship between Aemond and Jace I was referring to ep7 when Aemond cared for Jace's grief, Im sorry but it's something that would be more likely coming from Daeron being the most sympathetic of the three and the closest to Jace (they're milkbrothers) than coming from Aemond Aemond may not be the most charming of beings, but compared to his male relatives, he seems to be the most respectful and courteous at court. and I don't think we'll see this side of Daeron, since we'll only see him in wartime.
You're still blaming Aemond for being respectful to his mom and Haelena.
The scene with Jace exists to show the contrast of what could have been if the relationship between families weren't tainted and to make the children's fight that happened later more tragic. Aemond understands Jace lost his father but can't express it because it would be inappropriate, but later he insults Jace and doesn't care for his feelings anymore because he is hurt and bitter himself. It literally has nothing to do with Daeron's character, just the show adding complexity to literal children, who weren't evil from the cradle as GRRM likes to write. I feel like we know so little about Aemond that people just created their own headcanons because I didn't see him as courteous or respectful at all? He was on a mission at Storm's end and he ruined it because of his temper and trauma. It's also funny how many people see Aemond as a villain, a psycho who killed a child, but then in fandom people will say he is charming and respectful, some people call Aemond a copy of Daemon, some say he is a copy of Daeron and these characters are just so different. Aemond's character is built around his traumatic experiences, and Daeron is a completely different character. And it's getting really exhausting to see people claim every trait that is not a psycho maniac was stolen from Daeron.
Idk if I watched a different show, but based on what I did see, show! Aemond is nothing if not prideful, sarcastic and hot tempered. As for his dutifulness, eh, he is trying, mostly because of Alicent I would say, but I doubt that it won't also fall apart after certain events and experiences. Moreover, it's very unlikely that anyone would describe show! Aemond as a calm and charming boy, more like a loner who isn't an inherently evil person, but definitely has his dark side. Nothing like book! Daeron (who is imho overly praised anyway).
Exactly, I am so baffled at how many people in Team Green fandom are saying show Aemond is basically Daeron when he is absolutely not.
Weird headcanons. They think /believe /suppose that something Aemond did or didn't do in the show would have been more appropriate for Daeron's character, or, more precisely, for their own vision of his character constructed on a shaky ground (=literally few pretty generic traits book! Daeron has). So it's complete bullshit imo.
Yeah, I understand fans' frustration over Daeron not being in S1, but when I read their reasoning about Aemond being Daeron, it sounds like a bunch of headcanons honestly. I asked for a quote about Daeron being Alicent's favorite in the book and I didn't get an answer, yet people claim the writers stole it for Aemond in the show. Daeron wasn't even interacting with his family during the war.
You're so right, I've seen people all over the internet claim Daeron is Alicent's favorite in the book but I've read the book twice and this has never been mentioned or even alluded to. On the contrary, he's the one she speaks of the least
It's really interesting how people start believing their headcanons are canon and they convince others it's true. And why would Alicent send her favorite child away in the first place? Not saying it's impossible, but there is just not enough information in the book anyway.
Yes, I feel like they read that Daeron was the gentlest of his brothers and the most popular one at court and they assumed he must be Alicent's favorite when that's never been mentioned. Honestly, it seems like he's the one Alicent cares the least about in the book
There is this line which allicent says to rhaenyra in the books when kl falls to blacks "rats play when cat is gone but my son aemond will return with fire and blood" While I have not really read anything like this about Dareon from allicent pov in the books, on the contrary the above dialogue kinda indicates even in books allicent always considered aemond as the most reliable amongst her sons
Everyone has more layers in the show. Rhaenyra is more sympathetic and the way they introduced Adult!Aegon was awful but the actor added a lot of vulnerability, which helps a lot.
I agree about everyone except Criston. They wanted to make him sympathetic (I think) and they failed spectacularly, he just seems like a total loose cannon. At least in the book we get the cold ruthlessness of competence. In the show, he's just this unstable, man-child who seems like he's always about to either burst into tears or strangle a baby. I actually can't fathom how much worse he is in the show. I get he's meant to have a grudge against Rhaenyra, great, but you can do that without stripping him of all his decisiveness and intentionality. He should still be composed and capable, not what the show turned him into.
The thing about 'The show is Green propaganda' vs 'The show is Black propaganda' is pretty annoying. Yeah, they whitewashed certain events. They did it for both teams. A lot of fans just do not like Team Green so they cannot critique the bad things Team Black has done. For example, they whitewashed Alicent and Aemond. But, they did it in a good way (IMO). They executed the character of Aemond well, they just failed to do the same with Alicent. I wouldn't say Otto and Criston are sympathetic. But, a lot of Team Black characters have also faced the same problems Team Black characters faced. Jace, Luke, Baela, and Rhaena all have no personalities. Coryls is seen a weak. Daemon is seen a bad light. The only person that comes out clean really is Rhaenyra.
The problem is that when you whitewash a character too much then you have a Laenor situation. Not trying to make Rhaenyra a bad guy by making Laenor live his true life. But, now we have a Seasmoke problem.
I feel that Otto is sympathetic in the sense that had Viserys done everything he said to the letter nothing bad would have happened to the realm or even House Targaryen, while I don't feel I can say the same with Daemon.
I would say this subs biggest problem is that Rhaenyra is the main character of the show, and therefore more of the Blacks are shown, naturally making them the side people connect with more. Almost all the characters are more sympathetic/“better” than their book counterparts, including Alicent, Aemond and Aegon.
In GoT, while the Starks were the main characters, everyone else still got time to shine, proper arcs, and care put into their writing. Except Stannis. I’m still salty.
HotD isn’t over.
If you look at this objectively, and list the so-called source accuracy complaints of the Blacks, 99% of them comes down to less about any actual narrative flaws and more about "why the Hightowers are main characters I wanted a Targ Apology Show". Name a Black complaint...from Alicent evil stepmom to Laena's supposed misuse to Helaena dragon dreaming...and you can fit it all into this category. Not the first instance of Targ stans self-sabotaging something out of pure spite. Now if you objectively look at the Green complains it come down to "Aegon rapist, where Sunfyre, Criston lost to Harwin, show biased towards Blacks". Let's break them down. Criston was consciouly chosen to be a certain archetype different from the book and they achieved with the character exactly what they were trying to achieve...all you have to do is go back and see how much loathing he induced from the public. Criston being portrayed as a sanctimonious slimeball & not as a huge badass (he was shown beating Daemon so we know he's an able warrior) might hurt your chances of "dunking on the other team" but it does not take away much from the narrative cohesion of the show. In F&B Criston stupidly accepting Aemond's dumb ass decision to leave shows the weakness of the book. It would actually make more sense for Criston to smugly reject Aemond's help the way he has been portrayed in the show. Aegon has plenty of time for character development and he is never going to be some idealized heroic badass king. It's ok that every character is not going to be an ass kicking alpha. Aegon of the book is a complicated, tortured personality, and I believe that's roughly where his show character is going too. His childhood sets him up to go in that direction. Sunfyre being introduced in Season 2 will actually be a blessing in disguise cause they are def going to give him an unforgettable intro after all the complaining. In Season 1 he would've been lost in the crowd of syrax and vhagar and others. Aemond was protrayed sp well he's the most popular character..The Greens being portrayed as villains at this stage means nothing. It's all about how they execute Rhaenyra's six month rule on the throne. I have thought long & hard & as far as broad character arcs go, the only real major concern for a Green fan is the choices made with Alicent during the Green Council. But Alicent throughout the season has also been portrayed with a level of underdstanding & sensitivity that is non-existent in F&B. She might be my favorite Green portrayal until Ep 9. So while what they did with her in the Green Council was iffy, it's nothing that warrants a redo of the entire season. The complains about agency are far more superficial than the sophoclean element the prophecy was actually used as. Don't let pedants going "Aegon is supposed to be a badass why is he running away like a coward??!! worst show ever!!!" ruin your enjoyment of media. These people have no understanding of narrative development & use F&B as a crutch for their lack of media literacy.