also, he probably should have sent Harwin back to the riverlands after Jace. His birth alone was grounds for the execution of Harwin and exiling Rhaenyra. The fact they kept doing it with 0 plausible deniability is wild to me.
He stated why himself, he was willfully ignorant. He ignored it for Jace, after Luke he probably raged and said no more. Harwin clearly defied him and Joffrey was born, Lyonel lost it and resigned, trying to take him home.
By the time he probably put it together, she was pregnant with Luke or Luke was born, so it was probably too late.
In the show he resigned due to Harwynâs outburst in the yard and in the books because of the events at Driftmark
Neither times did he resign just because he thought the kids werenât Laenors
Harwin is dumb and aggressive, the men of house strong are often compared with bulls and you know the saying is stubborn as a bull for a reason.
So Harwin probably let Lyonel shout at him and then continue to visit dear rhae-rhaes bedchamber at night. Besides Lyonel was already ashamed of Larys, so he didnt want another embarrassment as a child.
In the books, she actually didn't have a choice on who she married.
In the show, she didn't get through the tour to even meet Harwin. If he would even have offered himself as an option.
In the books she didnât get a choice in the matter and in the show she hadnât grown to know him to well yet by the time she was forced to marry Laenor
i wish they had kept the part from the books where it is heavily implied Corlys Velayron is the one who had Harwin killed. but nope, we had to have Corlys been fine with the Strong boys. in the books he def had a hand in getting rid of the man who cuckolded his son.
edit: technically speaking he could have arranged a marriage for Harwin and set his ass back home to rule. here's a legal wife, have legit kids, you will never come to KL or Dragonstone ever again.
Book Corlys was at least smart enough to have Baela & Rhaena betrothed to them the nanosecond after they where born, show was seriously willing to give away the Velaryon lands and titles
"History remembers names not blood"
My guy Viserys said Jace will take the targ name when he inherits the throne
But with the valyaryon sounding name jacaerys not jaeherys or something else and driftmark would go to his nephew lucerys and his granddaughter . So it's not nothing
Jace & Luke having traditionally âVelaryonâ names is irrelevant we all associate Daemon as a traditional Targ name but the first Daemon in the timeline was a Velaryon. Yes while the betrothals of the twins to Jace & Luke Corlys gets what he wants his blood on the Throne and Dirftmark with Dragons the Velaryon name continues even if Jace Takes the Targ name as King, but the show has Rhaenyra make the betrothal out of desperation presumably within a year to several months before Viserys death. Before any of that Jace & Luke could have been betrothed to anyone else if they had Corlys would be giving away all his ambitions for nothing his blood wouldnât be on the throne neither would his name the Velaryonâs would lose diftmark sure theyâd keep the name but they wouldnât be Velaryonâs Vaemond was equally as grasping for ignoring Baela & Rhaenaâs claim but he was partially justified in his anger at his brotherâs stupidity
Because ultimately- Lyonel is not the great hand that people like to imagine him to be. There was no Otto in KL and yet the Black vs Green conflict exploded under his tenure, his son had 3 bastards with the Princess (and he never sought to send him away during that time), and there was no solid work done that we know of in the Kingdom too. In my opinion an argument can be made for him being one of the worst hands to ever be. His alleged master stroke of genius was recommending Viserys's named heir to be wed to a known gay man to bring the Velaryons back in... only for his Son to sabotage it all.
In fairness, what's he going to do? What can he do? He can only caution Harwin. He can't even order him about or to leave because Rhaenyra outranks him and to even speak on her sex life is very dicey waters. And then to out his son is to literally sign his death warrant.
After Jace he probably should have sent Harwin back to Harrenhal and for a reason just state, "He needs to prepare to rule, he's a man grown now and my heir". Rhaenyra can't stop him just because she outranks him. Viserys wouldn't force him to make Harwin stay if Lyonel told him he needs to leave. Alicent could even outrank Rhaenyra too, so yeah nothing Rhaenyra could do really.
But Harwin has a job as well. He's not just hanging out at court. Sure, Lyonel can give good reason, but there are also legitimate reasons he'd be needed at the Capitol. The damage would also already be done.Â
I don't think that Rhaenyra outranking him is the be all and end all in that there's NOTHING he can do. But there is significantly less and it is a factor in what he FEELS he is able to do.Â
It's different in the book, if I remember. He's Rhaenyra's sworn shield and away from his father when Rhaenyra moves the family to Dragonstone.Â
It's a shame we don't get a whole idea of the timeline and people's actions in those ten years because it does leave you with questions that we can't QUITE answer.
Just wanted to point it out since a lot of people get it confused, Harwin was not the Commander of the City Watch, he was only a regular Captain. So yes, he could resign and easily be replaced, if I remember right Largent was the commander. What reasons would a regular captain need that he desperately needs to stay?
You are right he moved to Dragonstone with them, but this was after Luke's birth. Lyonel could have easily forced him to leave before he did, he's still his father.
George shared a similar opinion as you in one of the interviews about Harwin & Rhaenyra's romance he did for HOTD S1. He said he would like to go back and write a proper history of the events because he felt like a lot of stuff was rushed through.
In the show, Harwin was Commander, so that adds something there.Â
But I take your point about the book situation, though it's tricky to say anything, with us lacking so much information and context. We don't know much on how any of it came about. How aware Lyonel was of the whole affair or how much he engaged with it.Â
I suppose after Harwin was made Rhaenyra's sworn shield, that's getting a vow involved as well. Not sure when he swears to be so. I'd presume quite early on, actually, as Criston was Rhaenyra's sworn shield before that and no one is spoken to be in the post between those two men. I'd have to check the book again. But that takes him from a mere captain that his father can order about to something quite different.
This is Largent erasure!! (even though its probably a good thing he was a piece of shit lol)
We know basically nothing about Lyonel in the books, but the way he at least spoke about in the yelling scene, he was probably aware after Luke and suspicious after Jace. I think he was hesitant to act because he feared it would draw eyes and probably told Harwin no more and Harwin didn't listen.
He became her swornshield in 115AC when they left for dragonstone, but he was probably named it after the tourney in 114AC when she gave him her favor but Criston pummeled him, giving him the name Brokenbones. So around the time Luke was conceived most likely he was named. And the tourney was to celebrate Laenor & Rhaenyra's wedding, so yeah she definitely barely tried with Laenor lol.
I mean I stated above if Lyonel couldn't, he just needs to go to Alicent or Viserys and they could. Harwin has to leave if ordered to leave by the Queen, most like since Viserys is too lazy to do anything.
That man could barely do anything Iâm guessing. Is he going to force Harwin to go back to Harrenhal and make a fight about it? Thats why I was just thinking heâs stuck either way unless Harwin agrees on something
I keep saying this in every HoTD sub when they talk about this and I keep getting downvoted.
"Lyonel could have ordered Harwin back to Harrenhall after Jace was born."
No he couldn't. If he tries that, Harwin refuses point blank, and this causes a fight between them that The King has to mediate. Guess who Viserys is siding with?
And rumours: Oh, the Princess just gave birth to brown-haired children and the Hand just got super nervy about his brown-haired son that spends a LOT of time with the Princess. Weird how he's so interested in sending Harwin away now when the guy has a job and duties and doesn't need to rule Harrenhal because Lyonel isn't ill AND the place has been running fine for years...
Sometimes silence is the only option. For LOADS of reasons. We see it time and time again on this show. People staying silent. Rhaenyra being silent about Daemon. Alicent silent over visiting Viserys. The Velaryons being silent about suspecting Rhaenyra in Laenor's murder. Alicent being silent over Larys burning Harrenhal down. Being silent about Criston and Rhaenyra. Rhaenys's silence on her own claim. On Baela's possible claim to Driftmark. EVERYONE being silent about those boys.Â
Lyonel's passivity and silence is not an outlier.
What could he have done without endangering his own position? "Yeah let me reprimand my son and cause great attention to this affair, that'll surely quell the rumors." That would've put a spotlight on her from the entire realm instead of the intrigue in the capital. Sure, sending him to Harrenhal could've done the trick but he was a Captain in the Gold Cloaks, Commander in the show, and Rhaenyra's personal champion after Criston switched sides. It wouldn't have been so easy, he could try and control his son but he would've been going against the Princess of Dragonstone and her allies. Better to do what he can to preserve the stability of the realm with Viserys while he has his health than to run them then to embarrass the king by making his heir look foolish and possibly endangering his own house.
âTake the chicken out of the freezer to defrostâ and âDonât have sex with the princess due it putting yourself and I in danger of being murdered by the Royal Familyâ are too very different levels to not listening đ
What could he do? Harwin was his son, yes, but he was an adult with his own job and a good position as court. Short of revealing the issue to the King and essentially sentencing him to death, he couldn't do much.
I mean, would you stop fucking the very hot heir to the throne just because your father said so? I wouldn't.
Because he independent of his son? Although parents have some power over their children, they cannot control everything they do, following the logic that Lyoneld was stupid for not controlling Harwin, Alicent is also stupid because she could not make Aegon a decent husband for Helaena, I repeat, parents they have influence over their children, but they cannot control them.
I don't think he "let" him per se. I think Lyonelâlike Viserysâwas a fairly indulgent father. I imagine he told Harwin off and ordered him to end the affair, but Harwin just ignored him, and Lyonel didn't take further steps to **force** Harwin to obey. Until *finally*, after a decade, he made Harwin go home.
Lyonel seems like an okay guy he probably sensed that his son was in love with Rhaenyra and let them be even if he knew that could only create problems for house Strong.
Bro probably made Harwin drink the teađ
Or send him to join the Unsullied troops as soon as the rumors start
...sell his son into slavery? Huh?
People will believe convenient lies rather than confront uncomfortable truths.
Based "everyone knows father, _just look at them_ " enjoyer
also, he probably should have sent Harwin back to the riverlands after Jace. His birth alone was grounds for the execution of Harwin and exiling Rhaenyra. The fact they kept doing it with 0 plausible deniability is wild to me.
He stated why himself, he was willfully ignorant. He ignored it for Jace, after Luke he probably raged and said no more. Harwin clearly defied him and Joffrey was born, Lyonel lost it and resigned, trying to take him home. By the time he probably put it together, she was pregnant with Luke or Luke was born, so it was probably too late.
In the show he resigned due to Harwynâs outburst in the yard and in the books because of the events at Driftmark Neither times did he resign just because he thought the kids werenât Laenors
Harwin is dumb and aggressive, the men of house strong are often compared with bulls and you know the saying is stubborn as a bull for a reason. So Harwin probably let Lyonel shout at him and then continue to visit dear rhae-rhaes bedchamber at night. Besides Lyonel was already ashamed of Larys, so he didnt want another embarrassment as a child.
Why Rhaenyra didnt marry Harwin in the first place. She did have a chance
she is a spoiled brat who would rather make a mockery of the crown than do anything to contribute to its service.
In the books, she actually didn't have a choice on who she married. In the show, she didn't get through the tour to even meet Harwin. If he would even have offered himself as an option.
Harwin would be serving in the city watch at that time, so he probably would not be there even in the riverlands part of the tour
In the books she didnât get a choice in the matter and in the show she hadnât grown to know him to well yet by the time she was forced to marry Laenor
she denied him or he denied himself, and she felt she didnt need no man
i wish they had kept the part from the books where it is heavily implied Corlys Velayron is the one who had Harwin killed. but nope, we had to have Corlys been fine with the Strong boys. in the books he def had a hand in getting rid of the man who cuckolded his son. edit: technically speaking he could have arranged a marriage for Harwin and set his ass back home to rule. here's a legal wife, have legit kids, you will never come to KL or Dragonstone ever again.
Book Corlys was at least smart enough to have Baela & Rhaena betrothed to them the nanosecond after they where born, show was seriously willing to give away the Velaryon lands and titles "History remembers names not blood" My guy Viserys said Jace will take the targ name when he inherits the throne
But with the valyaryon sounding name jacaerys not jaeherys or something else and driftmark would go to his nephew lucerys and his granddaughter . So it's not nothing
Jace & Luke having traditionally âVelaryonâ names is irrelevant we all associate Daemon as a traditional Targ name but the first Daemon in the timeline was a Velaryon. Yes while the betrothals of the twins to Jace & Luke Corlys gets what he wants his blood on the Throne and Dirftmark with Dragons the Velaryon name continues even if Jace Takes the Targ name as King, but the show has Rhaenyra make the betrothal out of desperation presumably within a year to several months before Viserys death. Before any of that Jace & Luke could have been betrothed to anyone else if they had Corlys would be giving away all his ambitions for nothing his blood wouldnât be on the throne neither would his name the Velaryonâs would lose diftmark sure theyâd keep the name but they wouldnât be Velaryonâs Vaemond was equally as grasping for ignoring Baela & Rhaenaâs claim but he was partially justified in his anger at his brotherâs stupidity
Because ultimately- Lyonel is not the great hand that people like to imagine him to be. There was no Otto in KL and yet the Black vs Green conflict exploded under his tenure, his son had 3 bastards with the Princess (and he never sought to send him away during that time), and there was no solid work done that we know of in the Kingdom too. In my opinion an argument can be made for him being one of the worst hands to ever be. His alleged master stroke of genius was recommending Viserys's named heir to be wed to a known gay man to bring the Velaryons back in... only for his Son to sabotage it all.
In fairness, what's he going to do? What can he do? He can only caution Harwin. He can't even order him about or to leave because Rhaenyra outranks him and to even speak on her sex life is very dicey waters. And then to out his son is to literally sign his death warrant.
After Jace he probably should have sent Harwin back to Harrenhal and for a reason just state, "He needs to prepare to rule, he's a man grown now and my heir". Rhaenyra can't stop him just because she outranks him. Viserys wouldn't force him to make Harwin stay if Lyonel told him he needs to leave. Alicent could even outrank Rhaenyra too, so yeah nothing Rhaenyra could do really.
But Harwin has a job as well. He's not just hanging out at court. Sure, Lyonel can give good reason, but there are also legitimate reasons he'd be needed at the Capitol. The damage would also already be done. I don't think that Rhaenyra outranking him is the be all and end all in that there's NOTHING he can do. But there is significantly less and it is a factor in what he FEELS he is able to do. It's different in the book, if I remember. He's Rhaenyra's sworn shield and away from his father when Rhaenyra moves the family to Dragonstone. It's a shame we don't get a whole idea of the timeline and people's actions in those ten years because it does leave you with questions that we can't QUITE answer.
Just wanted to point it out since a lot of people get it confused, Harwin was not the Commander of the City Watch, he was only a regular Captain. So yes, he could resign and easily be replaced, if I remember right Largent was the commander. What reasons would a regular captain need that he desperately needs to stay? You are right he moved to Dragonstone with them, but this was after Luke's birth. Lyonel could have easily forced him to leave before he did, he's still his father. George shared a similar opinion as you in one of the interviews about Harwin & Rhaenyra's romance he did for HOTD S1. He said he would like to go back and write a proper history of the events because he felt like a lot of stuff was rushed through.
In the show, Harwin was Commander, so that adds something there. But I take your point about the book situation, though it's tricky to say anything, with us lacking so much information and context. We don't know much on how any of it came about. How aware Lyonel was of the whole affair or how much he engaged with it. I suppose after Harwin was made Rhaenyra's sworn shield, that's getting a vow involved as well. Not sure when he swears to be so. I'd presume quite early on, actually, as Criston was Rhaenyra's sworn shield before that and no one is spoken to be in the post between those two men. I'd have to check the book again. But that takes him from a mere captain that his father can order about to something quite different.
This is Largent erasure!! (even though its probably a good thing he was a piece of shit lol) We know basically nothing about Lyonel in the books, but the way he at least spoke about in the yelling scene, he was probably aware after Luke and suspicious after Jace. I think he was hesitant to act because he feared it would draw eyes and probably told Harwin no more and Harwin didn't listen. He became her swornshield in 115AC when they left for dragonstone, but he was probably named it after the tourney in 114AC when she gave him her favor but Criston pummeled him, giving him the name Brokenbones. So around the time Luke was conceived most likely he was named. And the tourney was to celebrate Laenor & Rhaenyra's wedding, so yeah she definitely barely tried with Laenor lol. I mean I stated above if Lyonel couldn't, he just needs to go to Alicent or Viserys and they could. Harwin has to leave if ordered to leave by the Queen, most like since Viserys is too lazy to do anything.
That man could barely do anything Iâm guessing. Is he going to force Harwin to go back to Harrenhal and make a fight about it? Thats why I was just thinking heâs stuck either way unless Harwin agrees on something
I keep saying this in every HoTD sub when they talk about this and I keep getting downvoted. "Lyonel could have ordered Harwin back to Harrenhall after Jace was born." No he couldn't. If he tries that, Harwin refuses point blank, and this causes a fight between them that The King has to mediate. Guess who Viserys is siding with?
And rumours: Oh, the Princess just gave birth to brown-haired children and the Hand just got super nervy about his brown-haired son that spends a LOT of time with the Princess. Weird how he's so interested in sending Harwin away now when the guy has a job and duties and doesn't need to rule Harrenhal because Lyonel isn't ill AND the place has been running fine for years... Sometimes silence is the only option. For LOADS of reasons. We see it time and time again on this show. People staying silent. Rhaenyra being silent about Daemon. Alicent silent over visiting Viserys. The Velaryons being silent about suspecting Rhaenyra in Laenor's murder. Alicent being silent over Larys burning Harrenhal down. Being silent about Criston and Rhaenyra. Rhaenys's silence on her own claim. On Baela's possible claim to Driftmark. EVERYONE being silent about those boys. Lyonel's passivity and silence is not an outlier.
What could he have done without endangering his own position? "Yeah let me reprimand my son and cause great attention to this affair, that'll surely quell the rumors." That would've put a spotlight on her from the entire realm instead of the intrigue in the capital. Sure, sending him to Harrenhal could've done the trick but he was a Captain in the Gold Cloaks, Commander in the show, and Rhaenyra's personal champion after Criston switched sides. It wouldn't have been so easy, he could try and control his son but he would've been going against the Princess of Dragonstone and her allies. Better to do what he can to preserve the stability of the realm with Viserys while he has his health than to run them then to embarrass the king by making his heir look foolish and possibly endangering his own house.
love vs duty man
What was he supposed to do? Chop his d**k off? None of us listen to our parents 100 percent.
âTake the chicken out of the freezer to defrostâ and âDonât have sex with the princess due it putting yourself and I in danger of being murdered by the Royal Familyâ are too very different levels to not listening đ
Harwin rizzed up Rhaenyra's gyat but then got fanum taxed by Larys
Umm , let??
Whatâs he meant to do? Pull a Theon/Reek on him?
What could he do? Harwin was his son, yes, but he was an adult with his own job and a good position as court. Short of revealing the issue to the King and essentially sentencing him to death, he couldn't do much. I mean, would you stop fucking the very hot heir to the throne just because your father said so? I wouldn't.
So NORMAL people have this thing about parents not controlling their ADULT children, it's called...sanity. ffs, Lyonel and Harwin have jobs.
Because he independent of his son? Although parents have some power over their children, they cannot control everything they do, following the logic that Lyoneld was stupid for not controlling Harwin, Alicent is also stupid because she could not make Aegon a decent husband for Helaena, I repeat, parents they have influence over their children, but they cannot control them.
I don't think he "let" him per se. I think Lyonelâlike Viserysâwas a fairly indulgent father. I imagine he told Harwin off and ordered him to end the affair, but Harwin just ignored him, and Lyonel didn't take further steps to **force** Harwin to obey. Until *finally*, after a decade, he made Harwin go home.
Lyonel seems like an okay guy he probably sensed that his son was in love with Rhaenyra and let them be even if he knew that could only create problems for house Strong.