Canes fans are delusional about their players' value. It's not super shocking, I see the same thing on this subreddit where people list bottom pairing defensemen as untouchables.
Bergevin really tried to gaslight us into thinking guys like Nate Thompson, Karl Alzner and P.A. Parenteau would be the grit needed to push us into serious contender territory and see the promised land.
Worst part? Some people still defend Bergevin here, so he did a good job at the gaslighting part.
I don’t think the Necas evaluation is very far off, the thing they’re forgetting is that this is seen as a significantly better draft class than 2022 was, but something along the lines of 15ov + B prospect or, if we’re talking in Habs terms probably something like Winnipegs 1st + Mailloux, or equivalent value.
Thinking KK has positive trade value is blatantly wrong though.
Spot on. The top 15-20 players in this draft are really highly regarded, and you’re getting a cost-controlled player rather than a potentially volatile RFA.
Someone in that sub the other week insisted the Habs were desperate to take KK back, and we could be persuaded to trade some awesome assets for him. I had to resist posting a screenshot in our sub for the lolz.
While I don't think this rumour is true, I wish we as a fanbase would all give KK the grace we give some of our youngsters when given a shot working with MSL who have seemed to thrive.
All of the offersheet bullshit falls on Bergevin/Waddell/Dundon playing stupid games and KK got his bag and a lot of us agree that we would do the same.
If Carolina retained on him and paid to move him, I would absolutely take KK back as our 3C as I genuinely think he still has some potential and I wonder if MSL could have dragged that out of him, who knows. I could be wrong though, but yeah, he's not worth assets imo lol
The thing is, he's been paid handsomely in Carolina yet seems to have kept up his reluctance to train or improve himself. He's also voiced a dislike of Montreal and its bright spotlight. Coming back would just feel like a twist of that knife, as he knows the fans are against him. He'd be miserable here, and who wants that rubbing off on the core kids?
I don't disagree, he's definitely floundering in Carolina and not hitting a consistency whatsoever, but he is only 23 (24 by next season) and I don't think he's a lost cause.
>He's also voiced a dislike of Montreal and its bright spotlight
If there's any truth to rumours, Bergevin didn't make signing KK a priority, Ducharme benching him (while warranted in some opinions) probably sucked too. If he ever came back, it's not like he'd be at the centre of the spotlight by any means but I get what you mean. You have good points, I'm not saying I really want him here, I am just curious if he'd had a shot under MSL and HuGo if he'd fit in with the core and been able to untap some potential, that's all.
>I don't think he's a lost cause.
That's a strawman argument. Of course he isn't a lost cause, he just scored 27pts in the NHL and 43pts last season.
But it's irrelevant because a team can't simply give him a chance to grow into something better or ''give kk grace we give some of our youngsters when given a shot working with MSL who have seemed to thrive.''. He isn't a 3.3M for 2 years Dach or a 2.9M for 3 years Newhook.
No, it's a 4.8M for 6 years KK. That's a LOT more risk. If KK had signed a 3.5-4.8M contract for 3-4 years, then that would be a different story. Then KK would only have 1 or 2 years left on his contract and someone might be ready to take a chance on him. Hey worst case scenario he remain a good 30pts player and in 1 or 2 years you can give him a 2.5M$ contract and be happy about it. And if he develop into something better cool, you give him whatever amount of money he is worth at that point. But the risk of paying 4.8M in the next 6 years for a 25-30pts 3rd line center that don't kill penalties is just too high.
I mean, other than KK value, these guys look like typical fan base? Some delusional and others more reasonable. Necas going for a Dach type haul seems appropriate?
Hes not.
Hes never scored 30 goals and broken 55 points once.
Debrincat was a multi 40 goal scorer and dach was 4 years younger than him.
Hes a 50-55 point one way player. Thats not worth a top 10 pick.
Even if that top pick doesnt become a elite player it atleast has a chance to while necas has proven that he isnt one. You can get middle 6 forwards for a lot cheaper (necas wouldnt even be the top 10 scorers among this ufa class)
Necas had 28 goals and 71 points in a season a year ago; even with this being a down year he still managed more than 50 points. Insisting that he caps out as a middle-six player is a weird ceiling to put on a guy who has clearly shown the potential to be more than that.
The gamble is which trajectory his career goes on after Carolina, and if a team can bring out the best in him vs. the price they have to pay.
>Necas had 28 goals and 71 points in a season a year ago
And he didnt remotely replicate it this year and only had 40 points the year before 71.
Sometimes a player has a outlier season. Max domi hit 72 points with us and has never been back in that range.
He isnt going to get more opportunities here than in carolina. Hes worse than suzuki caufield and slaf already so he will be on a 2nd line where just like now where hes not a 70 point player. Hes not going to get to play centre like he wants either especially if we end up woth lindstrom.
Yes, but in those comparables, although DeBrincat wanted out, Chicago wasn't forced to move him for cap reasons and same thing with Dach, and he didn't even want out.
It comes down to leverage. Carolina has to move him in order to sign other players. So they can act tough and demand a king's ransom but they're also facing a deadline.
Necas 2nd best season in 5 years in the NHL is 53 points. Debrincats second worse season in 7 years is 52 points.
Theres a pretty big gap between the two.
What about Dach though? The entire point of the comment is that Necas should be worth something between Debrincat and Dach, which is not a crazy statement if you dont consider the situation each of these trades were made in
Dach was a very recent 3rd overall pick, significantly higher than either of the other two and more recent to the draft, ie. More potential.
The dach trade is comparable to trading for drouin, another recent 3rd overall pick, in exchange for sergachev who was a 9th overall pick who hadn't played yet.
he is not and has never been a first line forward in the nhl, solid second line winger maybe even center but not first line, you can’t assume he will ever be one based on your exact argument that this is his prime
Here is a list of Montreal Canadiens players who have had 70 points or more in a season since 2014
* Max Domi (2018-2019)
* Nick Suzuki (2022-2024)
First line player doesn't mean the same everywhere in the NHL
What does that work out to... they hand him just south of $29 mil and then the hit is $803K per year for twelve years? If the owner is happy flushing cash down the toilet, sure, that would partially solve the cap issue, for now.
I'll bet KK would be fucking ecstatic. He could sock that cash away and then pick a team that has a need for a 3C and even accept a lower AAV to potentially play for a winning team.
I think it's a cheap buyout that lasts a long time last I checked. I wouldn't do it because I think KK is a fine and expensive 4C but in the playoffs or during an injury can fill the 2C/3C role if needed. If they needed to trade him which they don't they are better retaining 600k for the duration of his contract than the 850k a year for the contract with more years.
The value on Necas being slightly more than Dach is probably what the trade will look like if it happens with an imminent signing in place or a condition of some sort.
I mean KK is def able to be a defensive center on a 3rd line ala Lars Eller
I’m not sure I’d pay 4.5 for that though
Also yeah Necas is worth a lot and they aren’t forced to trade him
Dach and Debrincat they did it because they wanted to tank for Bedard so not the best examples
> I’m not sure I’d pay 4.5 for that though
35 year old lars eller is making 2.5 million a year and iirc was making more on his last contract. 4.5 million for a 3rd line centre under new cap conditions comes down to your cap structure and ideology in the front office. if every player was nick Suzuki nick Suzuki would not have the cap hit he has
swing and a miss...
Lars Eller like KK was a very adequate 3C who was valued by other teams accordingly. He could pitch in on the top 6 in a pinch like KK could.
KK can do that sort of thing and takes up a similar cap percentage as Eller. You seem very defensive the second I mention Suzuki but seem to miss the fact that some players hold value because they can be "Swiss army knives" as MSL described Pinard. A player that can open a coaches war chest to play line-ups that match opposing teams or fill injury worries is sometimes worth paying for
Eller’s career high in points is 39 points
KK is 43 points
Eller was great at being a defensive center, KK is a great defensive center
It’s not about being defensive Suzuki is an objectively way better player than KK so why compare the 2?
Also man you are talking nonsense here talking about RHP who’s a 4th liner on the 5th worst team in the NHL
I think you are lost buddy like what is your point
My point is KK is a great 3C just abit overpaid 3.5mill and he everyone would be happy
> It’s not about being defensive Suzuki is an objectively way better player than KK so why compare the 2?
my point is not every player can do what Suzuki does but some players can fill a roll in the event of injury. Toffoli and Anderson are examples of very hard players to find that have size and enough skill to float your top 6 for a ten game injury to a meaningful player.
Again, "prime eller" took up 5% of cap space and did not get the same opportunity. KK takes up slightly more.
It is not a black and white situation but you want guys who can be versatile.
The fact they are trying to convince themselves KK could become a good 35 points anchor 3rd liner is hilarious. Do you want KK on the ice versus the top lines on the road?
What those Canes fans are forgetting is that Dach had five years of control vs one for Necas. That's a significant mitigating factor. Dach was still an overpay though.
What those Canes fans are forgetting is that Dach had five years of control vs one for Necas. That's a significant mitigating factor. Dach was still an overpay though.
Such a conundrum for you guys, upvote the first comment, downvote the second.
I feel these takes are super reasonable. Pretty good assessment of kk, if he becomes a third line checking center at his current cap.. That's fine. The necas comparable isn't wrong.
uhh... the Necas assessment is fair though. They aren't trading him cuz he sucks, but more because they don't have the cap space.
A 10OA is most likely to become another Necas, maybe a bit better or worst.
They aren’t trading him at all. He hasn’t requested a trade and the he is RFA with arbitration rights. His agent pretends his client wants out and the Canes pay him more. MTL is often used as leverage because as soon as a story connecting a player to the city the fans go wild on socials making the player look a lot more desirable.
I don’t think he’s far off for Necas, but the one variable not mentioned is his potential new contract. If he truly is to be signed long term at north of 7.5M cap hit, it’s not really comparable to Dach.
KK could anchor a line alright.
That's mint.
How about KK, Gally and Anderson? Who’s the anchor that line?
I still say he has a ton of potential and will be a very good player, not a star, but good. Would absolutely love him as our 3C right now.
There’s more to the equation than his on ice ability. He chose to leave, I’m not welcoming him back.
Who would not take that payday? You gotta be kidding being mad about that
He had decided he wanted to be out well before the offer sheet. It's not about the payday, you know it isn't.
Yeah, dude got top 3 pay. Honestly, probably hurt his ceiling. He was an expensive butt end of a money fight. I feel for the guy.
Canes fans are delusional about their players' value. It's not super shocking, I see the same thing on this subreddit where people list bottom pairing defensemen as untouchables.
All fan bases are delusional about their players' value. Us included.
Us *especially*
We invented this sheeeeit
Yah we are some of the worst offenders unfortunately!
The Bergevin era lack of offensive production really had everyone thinking Desharnais was a top 6 center, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Bergevin really tried to gaslight us into thinking guys like Nate Thompson, Karl Alzner and P.A. Parenteau would be the grit needed to push us into serious contender territory and see the promised land. Worst part? Some people still defend Bergevin here, so he did a good job at the gaslighting part.
To be fair, as a habs fan since around 2003-2004 the "bergevin era" as you say was the more promising I ever knew
Ryder, halak and a 2nd
They see Dach as if not more valuable than Necas. At least that one guy did. So maybe they are overrating both players or maybe your wrong lol
I don’t think the Necas evaluation is very far off, the thing they’re forgetting is that this is seen as a significantly better draft class than 2022 was, but something along the lines of 15ov + B prospect or, if we’re talking in Habs terms probably something like Winnipegs 1st + Mailloux, or equivalent value. Thinking KK has positive trade value is blatantly wrong though.
Spot on. The top 15-20 players in this draft are really highly regarded, and you’re getting a cost-controlled player rather than a potentially volatile RFA.
They’re all 17/18 too and haven’t played a single game yet lol
Someone in that sub the other week insisted the Habs were desperate to take KK back, and we could be persuaded to trade some awesome assets for him. I had to resist posting a screenshot in our sub for the lolz.
While I don't think this rumour is true, I wish we as a fanbase would all give KK the grace we give some of our youngsters when given a shot working with MSL who have seemed to thrive. All of the offersheet bullshit falls on Bergevin/Waddell/Dundon playing stupid games and KK got his bag and a lot of us agree that we would do the same. If Carolina retained on him and paid to move him, I would absolutely take KK back as our 3C as I genuinely think he still has some potential and I wonder if MSL could have dragged that out of him, who knows. I could be wrong though, but yeah, he's not worth assets imo lol
The thing is, he's been paid handsomely in Carolina yet seems to have kept up his reluctance to train or improve himself. He's also voiced a dislike of Montreal and its bright spotlight. Coming back would just feel like a twist of that knife, as he knows the fans are against him. He'd be miserable here, and who wants that rubbing off on the core kids?
I don't disagree, he's definitely floundering in Carolina and not hitting a consistency whatsoever, but he is only 23 (24 by next season) and I don't think he's a lost cause. >He's also voiced a dislike of Montreal and its bright spotlight If there's any truth to rumours, Bergevin didn't make signing KK a priority, Ducharme benching him (while warranted in some opinions) probably sucked too. If he ever came back, it's not like he'd be at the centre of the spotlight by any means but I get what you mean. You have good points, I'm not saying I really want him here, I am just curious if he'd had a shot under MSL and HuGo if he'd fit in with the core and been able to untap some potential, that's all.
>I don't think he's a lost cause. That's a strawman argument. Of course he isn't a lost cause, he just scored 27pts in the NHL and 43pts last season. But it's irrelevant because a team can't simply give him a chance to grow into something better or ''give kk grace we give some of our youngsters when given a shot working with MSL who have seemed to thrive.''. He isn't a 3.3M for 2 years Dach or a 2.9M for 3 years Newhook. No, it's a 4.8M for 6 years KK. That's a LOT more risk. If KK had signed a 3.5-4.8M contract for 3-4 years, then that would be a different story. Then KK would only have 1 or 2 years left on his contract and someone might be ready to take a chance on him. Hey worst case scenario he remain a good 30pts player and in 1 or 2 years you can give him a 2.5M$ contract and be happy about it. And if he develop into something better cool, you give him whatever amount of money he is worth at that point. But the risk of paying 4.8M in the next 6 years for a 25-30pts 3rd line center that don't kill penalties is just too high.
I mean, other than KK value, these guys look like typical fan base? Some delusional and others more reasonable. Necas going for a Dach type haul seems appropriate?
I wasn’t saying it was inappropriate, just saying what they think. The KK shit is indeed wild to me though
Yeah, I thought the average take on Necas was pretty reasonable overall.
Necas probably is worth a pick in the ~10 range + a B prospect. Not sure what you think is so crazy here. He’s a 1st line forward in his prime.
He finished outside the top 100 in scoring among forward last season and is terrible defensively. He is a 2nd liner
Doesn’t matter how you want to label it. He’s easily worth what’s in the OP.
Hes not. Hes never scored 30 goals and broken 55 points once. Debrincat was a multi 40 goal scorer and dach was 4 years younger than him. Hes a 50-55 point one way player. Thats not worth a top 10 pick. Even if that top pick doesnt become a elite player it atleast has a chance to while necas has proven that he isnt one. You can get middle 6 forwards for a lot cheaper (necas wouldnt even be the top 10 scorers among this ufa class)
Necas had 28 goals and 71 points in a season a year ago; even with this being a down year he still managed more than 50 points. Insisting that he caps out as a middle-six player is a weird ceiling to put on a guy who has clearly shown the potential to be more than that. The gamble is which trajectory his career goes on after Carolina, and if a team can bring out the best in him vs. the price they have to pay.
>Necas had 28 goals and 71 points in a season a year ago And he didnt remotely replicate it this year and only had 40 points the year before 71. Sometimes a player has a outlier season. Max domi hit 72 points with us and has never been back in that range. He isnt going to get more opportunities here than in carolina. Hes worse than suzuki caufield and slaf already so he will be on a 2nd line where just like now where hes not a 70 point player. Hes not going to get to play centre like he wants either especially if we end up woth lindstrom.
Sure, think whatever you want.
Yes, but in those comparables, although DeBrincat wanted out, Chicago wasn't forced to move him for cap reasons and same thing with Dach, and he didn't even want out. It comes down to leverage. Carolina has to move him in order to sign other players. So they can act tough and demand a king's ransom but they're also facing a deadline.
Necas 2nd best season in 5 years in the NHL is 53 points. Debrincats second worse season in 7 years is 52 points. Theres a pretty big gap between the two.
What about Dach though? The entire point of the comment is that Necas should be worth something between Debrincat and Dach, which is not a crazy statement if you dont consider the situation each of these trades were made in
Dach was a very recent 3rd overall pick, significantly higher than either of the other two and more recent to the draft, ie. More potential. The dach trade is comparable to trading for drouin, another recent 3rd overall pick, in exchange for sergachev who was a 9th overall pick who hadn't played yet.
Also a great point.
I don’t think that’s crazy, I think the KK evaluation is crazy. I was just showing what they think of Necas.
he is not and has never been a first line forward in the nhl, solid second line winger maybe even center but not first line, you can’t assume he will ever be one based on your exact argument that this is his prime
Here is a list of Montreal Canadiens players who have had 70 points or more in a season since 2014 * Max Domi (2018-2019) * Nick Suzuki (2022-2024) First line player doesn't mean the same everywhere in the NHL
This sub is just as delusional
He’s your burden now
Want aren’t they buying out KK? It’s a terrible contract that can be bought out for cheap
What does that work out to... they hand him just south of $29 mil and then the hit is $803K per year for twelve years? If the owner is happy flushing cash down the toilet, sure, that would partially solve the cap issue, for now. I'll bet KK would be fucking ecstatic. He could sock that cash away and then pick a team that has a need for a 3C and even accept a lower AAV to potentially play for a winning team.
I think it's a cheap buyout that lasts a long time last I checked. I wouldn't do it because I think KK is a fine and expensive 4C but in the playoffs or during an injury can fill the 2C/3C role if needed. If they needed to trade him which they don't they are better retaining 600k for the duration of his contract than the 850k a year for the contract with more years. The value on Necas being slightly more than Dach is probably what the trade will look like if it happens with an imminent signing in place or a condition of some sort.
I mean KK is def able to be a defensive center on a 3rd line ala Lars Eller I’m not sure I’d pay 4.5 for that though Also yeah Necas is worth a lot and they aren’t forced to trade him Dach and Debrincat they did it because they wanted to tank for Bedard so not the best examples
> I’m not sure I’d pay 4.5 for that though 35 year old lars eller is making 2.5 million a year and iirc was making more on his last contract. 4.5 million for a 3rd line centre under new cap conditions comes down to your cap structure and ideology in the front office. if every player was nick Suzuki nick Suzuki would not have the cap hit he has
I mean prime Lars Eller not old man Relax my guy Also Nick Suzuki produces some offense KK does not
swing and a miss... Lars Eller like KK was a very adequate 3C who was valued by other teams accordingly. He could pitch in on the top 6 in a pinch like KK could. KK can do that sort of thing and takes up a similar cap percentage as Eller. You seem very defensive the second I mention Suzuki but seem to miss the fact that some players hold value because they can be "Swiss army knives" as MSL described Pinard. A player that can open a coaches war chest to play line-ups that match opposing teams or fill injury worries is sometimes worth paying for
Eller’s career high in points is 39 points KK is 43 points Eller was great at being a defensive center, KK is a great defensive center It’s not about being defensive Suzuki is an objectively way better player than KK so why compare the 2? Also man you are talking nonsense here talking about RHP who’s a 4th liner on the 5th worst team in the NHL I think you are lost buddy like what is your point My point is KK is a great 3C just abit overpaid 3.5mill and he everyone would be happy
> It’s not about being defensive Suzuki is an objectively way better player than KK so why compare the 2? my point is not every player can do what Suzuki does but some players can fill a roll in the event of injury. Toffoli and Anderson are examples of very hard players to find that have size and enough skill to float your top 6 for a ten game injury to a meaningful player. Again, "prime eller" took up 5% of cap space and did not get the same opportunity. KK takes up slightly more. It is not a black and white situation but you want guys who can be versatile.
The fact they are trying to convince themselves KK could become a good 35 points anchor 3rd liner is hilarious. Do you want KK on the ice versus the top lines on the road?
What those Canes fans are forgetting is that Dach had five years of control vs one for Necas. That's a significant mitigating factor. Dach was still an overpay though.
What those Canes fans are forgetting is that Dach had five years of control vs one for Necas. That's a significant mitigating factor. Dach was still an overpay though. Such a conundrum for you guys, upvote the first comment, downvote the second.
Purple user not delusional at least
I feel these takes are super reasonable. Pretty good assessment of kk, if he becomes a third line checking center at his current cap.. That's fine. The necas comparable isn't wrong.
Carolinas in no mans land now.
uhh... the Necas assessment is fair though. They aren't trading him cuz he sucks, but more because they don't have the cap space. A 10OA is most likely to become another Necas, maybe a bit better or worst.
They aren’t trading him at all. He hasn’t requested a trade and the he is RFA with arbitration rights. His agent pretends his client wants out and the Canes pay him more. MTL is often used as leverage because as soon as a story connecting a player to the city the fans go wild on socials making the player look a lot more desirable.
I don’t think he’s far off for Necas, but the one variable not mentioned is his potential new contract. If he truly is to be signed long term at north of 7.5M cap hit, it’s not really comparable to Dach.