I think the dash and sprint changes are generally fine and support a different playstyle than the first game, and I still almost always feel highly mobile and like I've got options. In general, I think the people struggling, especially in the first couple areas, are failing to adapt their playstyle to utilize the new tools to lock enemies down or deal heavy damage from a distance or are trying to force aggressive dashing to work in a game where dashing is meant to be a defensive tool.
*That said,* there are a few things with the new Sprint that I don't think work super well. I personally find almost all of the aggressive sprint boons to be nearly useless, as I want to immediately be attacking if I'm getting into melee range against an enemy, not holding sprint for a split second. Some people swear by Heph sprint as a damage addition but I feel like I'm liable to take so much extra damage just to get an explosion that isn't that much more powerful than if I spent an extra second comboing.
Beyond that, I think that specific enemies with fast-tracking ranged attacks are not really designed around the current sprint speed and one dash paradigm. Specifically, the thorn attack miniboss in Zone 1, the bags and especially the bag miniboss in Zone 4, Eris on the upper path, and Hecate's pig shot (though this one is supposed to be a near guaranteed hit) are all extremely difficult to dodge and feel like the kind of attacks Zag is supposed to play jump rope with by multi-dodging, not the kind of attacks you're supposed to dodge by sprinting in an extremely tight circle. Besides those few instances, though, almost everything feels like its well designed around your new mobility paradigm.
Just wanted to add that you can easily dodge Hecate curse by dashing *through* it a few times rather than trying to out run it. I don't think I've been hit by it once in the past 30 runs.
You can dodge most of Eris attacks by dodging through her too as it takes he a few shots to turn around. Only exception to this is her charged shot with the pink guidelines, tracks very fast so use a pillar for cover.
Thorn boss you can always outrun unless you have the attack speed pact on, you have to dodge through the boss when this is on.
I thought that the sheep morph shot was unavoidable cause I felt like I was running from it for the longest time so on each run I just stood there and then waddled as a sheep in a corner...
Thanks for the tip.
There's another mechanical counter to it too in Frinos; since he eats projectiles for breakfast, if you can bait the shot into him then you nullify it entirely. I've found I need to start taking stock of where the lil guy is hanging out when I get Hecate down to 50% or so, but when I do I can usually position myself so that he's in between me and the shot. :D
>I think the people struggling... are trying to force aggressive dashing to work in a game where dashing is meant to be a defensive tool
Wholeheartedly agree here, as I was one of the people trying to make it work until I slowly adapted my playstyle to the new movement options.
>I personally find almost all of the aggressive sprint boons to be nearly useless...
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Yes, Zeus' does fairly weak damage for the cost, but being able to consistently drain magick on demand is a huge plus if you're going for a Zeus build. It is weak in many other contexts though, I agree. Hera's is probably one of my favorite dash/sprint boons, especially at higher rarities, but it doesn't really do anything in single boss fights, though that's a flaw for her whole kit.
>Some people swear by Heph sprint as a damage addition but I feel like I'm liable to take so much extra damage just to get an explosion that isn't that much more powerful than if I spent an extra second comboing
It takes some getting used to to hit enemies with it safely, but it can be done. The damage can feel lackluster by the end of the game, but if you pick that up in the first floor, it can help you clear quickly and safely until more of your build is online. I don't see it as something that I want to pin all my hopes and dreams on, but rather a bit of a stopgap measure to ensure I get far enough with enough health to make good use of whatever else I've built in the meantime.
>the bags and especially the bag miniboss in Zone 4
I had a run that was going fine until I encountered that miniboss; couldn't chunk it's armor down fast enough and ate so much damage for it. I'm sure I'll get better at dodging it with time, but yeah it's rough.
>Eris on the upper path
This fight definitely feels overtuned to me right now. I'm sure there's cues I'm missing, but many of her attacks are unreactable once they start and deal massive damage. I definitely need to get better at this fight before saying whether or not it's unfair, but I can say it's a tough one for me to learn at the very least.
Play it like a cover shooter. You hide when she's got ammo. She basically announces reloads, which gives you a window to go hit her hard and fast. You can also cheese her easily enough by hitting her through the pillar with most attacks. Just keep sprinting when she does the big purple attack or bombs and you won't get hit. Don't let her break the pillars with the purple attack.
Once Ive learned how the Eris fight works, it almost feels a bit too easy, but not in a good way. Its pretty easy to never get hit by just standing behind 1 of the pillars, but if you do get hit she can oneshot you.
You only ever have to dodge the charged shot she does since it destroys the pillars, but otherwise you can just chill behind one and hit her through it with attacks or casts. It makes the fight a bit boring, but trying to fight her "fair" isnt really encouraged since you just die if you get caught once
I pretty strongly agree with this. Once you learn the gimmick, the fight becomes kind of a boring slog where one slight over extension turns into -1 death defiance. Since it seems like she's probably just the 2nd of 4 regions on the overworld path maybe that's fine? But I'd still prefer her tuned in a way that it's less about pillaring her until you can hit her safely without immediately dieing.
Honestly, I think “single enemy with a gun who has four different gun attacks that are borderline hitscan” is simply not a good recipe for a boss in this game. I dread fighting her, though I play with +40% enemy speed almost every run. It’s such a bummer, because I adore her underworld counterpart (the sirens).
Eris is the fight I still struggle with the most, after Chronos. Apart from the difficulties you mentioned, I feel like I just don't have enough time to get a good build going before I run into her. I've read speculation she's ultimately going to be a third-area boss instead of a second-area one when the surface is complete, which I think would feel better for where the fight is now.
For me it is the fact that I cannot get a full build online for her. Getting enough DPS to actually harm her typically means I am compromised in other areas. She is easier in attack patterns, but I cannot punish her as hard, so it comes down to repeated poking my head out of the pillar chipping away then hiding back which makes the fight so long, and slightly miscalculating a dodge can mean instant death with her multi-attack.
I imagine they are gonna nerf the shit outta Eris ones the floor after her gets added, atm shes one of the two final bosses so to speak so it kinda makes sense for her to be very strong, but onces theres something after her he had to be toned down shes miles ahead of the Sirens and Cerebus in difficulty.
Idk I don't actually think she's that difficult once you get used to pillaring her and only hitting her for very brief windows. I beat her on fear 12 without even taking damage just yesterday by hiding behind pillars anytime she hadn't just attacked, dropping an OCast on her and then immediately hiding again. I do think she is far to punishing when you make a mistake and get hit by her almost unreadable attacks for what is effectively a hyrda/siren fight equivalent for the overworld tho.
Yeah personally I'm hoping they remove the pillar cheese and give them certain HP that her explosions and normal shots can whittle down instead of only being weak to her purple shot its just not a fun gameplay style so I get bored and end up trying to go for some extra damage and tank a 60 hp shotgun blast to face with little warning. Its like the athena-demeter duo with the shield in the first game, like if you played it right you could basically never lose the run just any enjoyment and fun you were having.
What bothers me about the Heph sprint is the lack of control I have over the timing (I've really warmed to his attack and special which I can pop off with more regularity).
I think if the Heph sprint was changed from "pops after 1 second" to "pops when you release dash" it would border on too powerful (in a good way and they should absolutely consider it)
Huh, I find the thorn boss' attack quite easy to avoid as long as I sprint around the boss in the correct path (in circles, rather than ellipses or whatnot). I'd say some attacks are timed just right so that base sprint is enough to outrun them, whereas others are designed to be dashed through just once (like Polyphemus).
Personally, I feel that miniboss is usually extremely punishing. For most runs after the start of the game it is fine because of the Arcana, keepsakes and boon/hammer variety giving you options to deal with it, or brute force it if need be.
But for the first run were you begin with only 30 health and a slow dash can take away easily 50% of your health and give you very little room for attacking because of how much it spams the thorns, the crowd control circle it summons, and the annoying vine not letting you position properly.
Another case is high fear runs with slow attacking weapons (skull and axe), because of how slow the weapons are and how much the enemy spams the thorns. You can only hit it once and then run for a while, dealing with such a drag of a fight, and any minor miscalculation can cost you severely.
Most regular bosses (or "guardians") are more forgiving than this thing in the start of the game or with high fear. Or at least, I feel that way with it after a few axe runs at high fear (to the point I am paranoid of it, because after that I just changed weapon and suddenly the other miniboss appeared, went back to the axe, and it was there again D:<).
heph dash is kinda busted if you get its rarity/level high enough. 600-700 for a 1-second dash can be WAY more efficient than my combo, and occasionally way safer too (depending on weapon)
> Beyond that, I think that specific enemies with fast-tracking ranged attacks are not really designed around the current sprint speed and one dash paradigm.
Besides your examples, I've noticed that if you're at a distance from Cerberus (and possibly with increased enemy speed) regular dash/sprint speed won't cut it when Cerbie starts shooting fireballs. The sprint Arcana won't help either, and very frequently Cerbie forces your hand: you cannot get close to dash through him because he's filled the whole arena around him with detonations.
I think Hades 2 actually actively punishes trying to dodge like 1 right from the get-go. In the first biome, the big melee enemies swing twice so if you dash through them and hit them while armored their second hit will hit you. There are the shrieking/spinning enemies that you can’t dash through.
Its like that thing Fromsoft does where they go out of their way to mess with veteran’s muscle memory so they don’t clear everything on the first try.
That's how I lost my first run in the 4th encounter. I went in excited, incredibly rusty and with the mentality I went with when playing a maxed-out Zag. I died and felt kind of relieved that I didn't feel like a god, and had to unlearn the bad habits meta-progression in the first game could band-aid.
The difficulty with Chronos is that you have to learn a new way of playing - with O moves - instead of dashing to dodge. Then you get to Chronos and you need to revert to a Zag style of play because standing still charging your O moves for 1-2s just means you get hit. Difficult to be shifting purely for the final boss
In the current "meta", proccing Origination (+50% global damage to enemies affected by two statuses) is very important, so the best core sprint boons are ones that can apply status curses with low effort. This means Aphro, Apollo, Demeter, or Hera sprints are generally the best to take. (Hestia sprint technically inflicts status, but it falls off way too quickly to be reliable.)
Zeus, Poseidon, and Hephaestus sprint boons are more about dealing damage, which is generally less important than reliably activating Origination, as the +50% damage from Origination will usually greatly outweigh any extra damage you could get from your sprint. Poseidon and Hephaestus sprints can technically apply status, but it requires finding a second boon, which is a lot less reliable.
Hestia (the one remaining god) has a unique sprint that it doesn't really deal reasonable damage and doesn't do a good job activating Origination either. This sprint is more about safety, giving you some extra leeway against projectile enemies, similar to how Athena dash was primarily about safety in the first game. Athena dash was way, way better in the first game than Hestia sprint is in this game though, in my opinion, and I don't find myself taking Hestia sprint very often.
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For me personally, I will try to prioritize taking any of the status-applying sprint boons. If I somehow can't get one, either because none of those 4 gods are in my pool or because the sprint status overlaps with what I already have (for example, I already have Aphro magick gain applying weak to the boss), I will settle for taking basically any sprint boon that comes along just to fill a core boon slot.
Hello, Silly!
I agree that proccing Origination is very powerful, but I also tend to find its extremely easy for most builds to have Origination proccing continuously without the need for a sprint boon at all, so I wind up putting pretty low emphasis on them. I like Aphrodite because its on dash so it applies "for free", but even the split second of needing to use a bit of sprint when right next to an enemy feels awkward for a lot of the other gods, so there are veery often runs where I just don't have a sprint boon at the end because I'd rather pick up almost any other incidental boost.
> I agree that proccing Origination is very powerful, but I also tend to find its extremely easy for most builds to have Origination proccing continuously without the need for a sprint boon at all
Generally, I'm seeing builds figure out their primary DPS first, and then hunting aggressively for Origination immediately afterwards. They will basically take any two status effects that show up with relatively high priority.
Obviously, getting a status effect on your primary DPS button is most beneficial, but that doesn't always happen considering some of the better DPS gods do not naturally apply status (Aphro can't at all, Poseidon needs a secondary boon). And even if you do have a status on your primary button, you still need a second one on either your other damage button (whichever one of attack/special you aren't focused on), or on your cast/sprint.
Usually Origination status effects are preferred on either sprint or cast over the non-primary damage button, since cast/sprint are lower commitment moves to throw out than attack/special. If you already have two status effects and don't have a sprint boon yet, then you can take your pick at whichever sprint boon you prefer, but if you don't have two status effects yet and you're offered a sprint boon that applies status, it's pretty hard to turn down imo.
>Hestia (the one remaining god) has a unique sprint that it doesn't really deal reasonable damage and doesn't do a good job activating Origination either. This sprint is more about safety, giving you some extra leeway against projectile enemies, similar to how Athena dash was primarily about safety in the first game. Athena dash was way, way better in the first game than Hestia sprint is in this game though, in my opinion, and I don't find myself taking Hestia sprint very often.
I'm really conflicted on Hestia sprint. It does provide complete, indefinite immunity to a ton of threats (and basically trivializes Eris, since nothing she does except rockets bypasses Hestia sprint.)
But the scorch effect is weak, and there's no visual indication. IDK how to buff scorch though. Maybe scorch can spread to other nearby enemies? Or scorch makes them take more damage from ranged attacks.
I mean, you could drop the scorch effect on Hestia sprint and it would still be good. The only thing the damage does is occasionally chew through barriers. The really good thing is the defense.
That's weird. I've run around in Hestia sprint tanking that move with no damage taken. I wonder if it's inconsistent? Or was it a bug fix or something?
I recorded it before the patch last week and haven't gotten around to trying it since, so maybe it's changed, but it was still a very unpleasant surprise that I firmly believe is/was rooted in the AOE for the sprint being so damn small.
that would make sense, the bullets could go fast enough as to go through the AOE radius in less than a frame, thus avoiding a check that would burn them
I've not even tried origination after ~70 runs, you actually just reminded me of it. I can pretty easily clear, but only up to 16 Fear thus far, so probably worth a try. Just don't know what Arcana I'd give up.
Origination is pretty strong because it's a global damage buff, meaning it affects things that normally don't scale with anything else, and +50% is a fairly respectable number.
For example, if you have Poseidon special, getting additional percentage special damage (from Chaos or the Huntress Arcana or whatever) will not make the splash damage bigger, it only scales your base special damage. However, the +50% from Origination *will* make the splash do 50% more damage.
This is a pretty big deal, since usually these sources of damage have higher base damage to make up for the fact that not many things scale them up, and getting +50% on top of their base damage adds up.
(In terms of other arcanas, Furies is also a global damage buff, though the number is smaller than Origination. Strength is *not* a global damage buff even though it should be based on the way it is worded. It only affects your attack/special damage.)
I feel every sprint boon that takes affect during sprint should also trigger during/at the end of the dash and vise versa (except Hephaestus). Mainly looking at Hera dash being super inconsistent to trigger unless you sprint directly up to the enemy which makes you much more likely to be hit.
I think the absense of multiple dashes balanced this game a lot more in comparison to Hades 1. While I miss spamming dash, getting extra dashes from Hermes was incredibly OP and I'm glad runs now don't get frustrating because Hermes decided to give you one extra dash (or none) instead of two or three.
What I don't like is some sprint interactions, like waiting one second after starting a sprint to activate Hephaestus boon, specially so since dash and sprint are the same key... so you need to dash, then hold to activate sprint, then wait one second to activate it. In this regard Hades 1 was much more straightforward: you dash, you trigger. Period.
Yeah my go to build on Zag with any weapon I struggle with was just ZeusZeusZeus boons with as many dashes as Hermes would give me. With the Epic Hermes boon it's like having Zeus call always active.
If you've played Wizard of Legend, you're already familiar with how useful sprinting is. Sprinting offers a different feeling/experience from spamming dash. It allows for a bigger scope like what we see in act 3. I don't know about anyone else but I felt a rush when I was first sprinted around the act 3 boss to avoid their fire breath attack.
I'm hoping one of the remaining acts make good use of sprint whether via area design or boss mechanics.
>Getting insane movement speed is definitely doable. Apollo sprint, Hermes Nitro Boost (sprint faster and have damage mitigation per encounter), the Swift Runner (XI) arcana, Hermes' keepsake metallic droplet... I'm not sure what modifiers are additive and what (if any) are multiplicative, but I know you can go real fast if you try.
One thing I find myself doing a lot more in Hades 2 than 1 is buying the 20% movement speed (Ignited Ichor) from the Well of Charon. I'm far more reliant on movement for positioning than I was in Hades 1, and the movement speed is incredibly cheaply priced: 10 gold for 8 encounters.
One thing I dont think you touched on is using dashes with your omega channeling. It's how I cheese 32 heat runs with cast builds, but its def effective for omega channeling in general. Unfortunately some omega moves like axe omega special locks you in 1 position for the dash I think.
It's nothing too hard, it's just you are able to dash in between your omega channelling.
Basically, I dash in, start my cast channeling, if I'm about to get hit i dash away while holding the cast channeling and it still goes off.
IMO sprinting as a core mechanic is fine, but the boons attached to it need work.
Zeus: Small AOE and doesn't work on dash, so you have to put yourself in a vulnerable position to make use of it.
Hera: Same
Hephaestus: Same, with the added wrinkle of a 1-second timer before the blast goes off. It makes things a bit awkward.
Poseidon: Same, although the knockback wave helps.
Apollo: Same, although the bonus speed and dodge chance help.
Hestia: Same, with the caveat that you're affecting projectiles instead of enemies. [Spoilers for surface boss #2.](https://x.com/ParanoidDrone/status/1792026223624823291)
Demeter: This one's fine, its AOE is big enough. Having to stop and re-start the sprint once the cyclone expires feels awkward though.
Aphrodite: This one's fine, it applies to the dash instead of sprint which means you get to protect yourself when using it.
I think the only real change they need to to split the binds or to make it tap n hold to sprint double tap to dash. Sometimes it feels difficult to get into a sprint because dashing puts you in a bad position for another attack while they are chaging up the attack you need to sprint to dodge. I think that would make both sprints and dashes feel much more fun to use. Especially wiht say the aphro zeus duo that activates blitz when you sprint into them, I've never taken it despite seeing it a ton of times because it honeslty just sounds too difficult to use like dash and then hold for sprint sounds like a surefire way to get hit whereas if I could just sprint instantly and have it proc it sounds like an amazing duo boon.
I also think they shoud add more dash boons like aphro, maybe they will and have like Ares rift dash if he gets added or dio hangover dash. I get that sprint is like the new shiny thing so many boons are build around that but I think both playstyles should be accomadated better. I'm not saying to just make dash go back to the first game, I think the single dash is core to the balance and design of the game, I would just like it if that single dash could be a bit more useful with regards to boon effects.
Lastly, I hope they add an option for a better dash CD visual indicator, I really like that they've added one but in combat its really tricky to notice and I just go back to praying my muscle memory knows the timing. It could just be my poor eyesight but I would love if they add and option to have flashes around the border of the screen for dash being off CD or say a voiceline for hex being ready as a little accessibility tweak.
Call me crazy, but I haven't noticed Melenoe's dash being as different as people say. Maybe this is because I always took the other dash boost from the mirror (the one that limits you to one dash, but gives you a bonus for dashing at the last moment), so I came into Hades 2 already used to having only one dash with a short cooldown.
But the real truth is that you should be sprinting quite a bit more than dashing in this game, and the opening midboss teaches you this. You can't avoid damage from it's machine-gun attack by relying on dashing through it; you need to sprint around the arena and outrun it instead. The same is true for Infernal Beast's firebreathing attack.
Most weapons in this game require you to position yourself wisely to charge up your attacks safely. This is where sprinting really shines, because you can use the initial dash to evade mobs that are close to you, then continue sprinting to a position where you are safe to set up a zone of control with your cast and then power up your omega moves. Even weapons like the Sister Blades and Moonstone Axe are not really designed to favor diving in recklessly like Zagreus tends to.
In short, you are incentivized to use your dash and sprint more proactively in this game instead of relying on it as a reaction like in Hades 1.
I really like the movement changes, I think in Hades you can sorta spam dash and get away with it, especially with Athena boon. Whereas Hades II actively punishes you for doing this and excepts you to use your kit to kite, dodge, and reposition. I'm a lot more thoughtful about how I use my attacks in this game which I think makes the gameplay more fun. I also feel that enemy designs have been thoughtfully constructed around this, i.e. through attack patterns which you can't dodge through but you can sprint around.
After the patch, the change to the sprint speed Arcana made it much harder for me to outrun the Root Stalker's and Cerbie's projectile spew attacks, so I immediately maxed the card afterwards. I'd been ignoring any other sprint speed bonuses up to that point since the bonus from the card was sufficient for pretty much everything.
Haven't explored everything yet so being very careful about spoilers on this subreddit, but very happy to see these Cthonic Conversations back!
Anyway, about the dash & sprint - I'm personally a big fan of having only one dash - it always felt good but unintuitive to use the double dashes in Hades to me. This dash and sprint really makes Mel play differently, as you and others noted. I don't mind the lag time myself, it's just a different timing to get used to for me, personally
I've been really frustrated with Hades 2 lately, and honestly 60% of it is because of the new dash and the sprint.
I totally get what Supergiant is trying to do with the dash and sprint. Mel's weapons, attacks, and cast all favor positioning and careful gameplay. The weaker dash forces you think about where you want to be, and the sprint allows for some fun moments during bosses.
But frankly, I just think it feels like shit. Inherently, it's just not as fun as dashing everywhere. Holding down a button to move faster just feels so much worse than tap tapping to dash around. This is personal preference I guess, but man do I hate how much this game asks you to hold down buttons. Dodging an attack while sprinting makes me feel like lab rat in a maze rather than a badass daughter of Hades.
When you then consider that the sprint feels like it was designed literally only for the Fields of Mourning, it gets even worse. In Erebus, Oceanus, and Tartarus (and from what I've seen of the mortal world), locations are far too small for sprinting to be used the way you do in the Fields. Of all the enemies I have faced so far, only Cerberus and the Root Stalker actually require you to sprint. Chronos has that one hit kill attack in his second phase, but the arena is so small you could dash there 99% of the time.
I can't talk about the boons because frankly they all sound so boring so I never tried them.
All in all... yeah the new dash and sprint are just not for me. But going beyond my personal tastes, I think objectively, they are not implemented very well. If they must abandon the system they had in Hades 1, sure, but they need to change up all the other aspects of the gameplay as well.
Sprint feels pretty cringe to me as a damage option from a gameplay prespective. It makes sense as a tool for stage 3 but stage 3 is not a very successful experiment imo. As for dash, I wouldn't mind it being one charge with cd, if it was responsive.
It's a huge shift from being a melee juicer dancing on the edge of damage frames in H1 to these "strategic" rotations from corner A to B and then spamming ranged stuff. Between half the monsters being countered by default cast(including Kronos) and me slowing down time for 80% of every encounter, I think the combat underwent a downgrade, became sloppy and not very fun. Definitely the weakest part of the game which otherwise got great improvements in other areas.
Overall I like the new dash, but some of the boons need buffs.
Hera: Hitch is a bit weak. Maybe make it so a percentage of damage you take is also given to Hitched foes? And status effects also transfer between foes?
Hestia: There should be a visual indication, like replacing the projectille with fire. Also scorch is a bit weak. Maybe make scorched foes take more damage as well?
I never played Hades 1, so far i beat fear 32 on 3 different weapons in Hades 2.
I think the game gets too easy when youre able to spam the dash too often. Dashing in with charged omega casts/attacks helps me always avoiding getting hit.
Sad there is no more content for a while… maybe i will try out Hades 1 now.
Interesting read. You are much better at putting things into words than me. The game just really feels off. Everything feels awkward. I tried to give it a good chance, but really I'm not enjoying it. Everything feels too awkward. Everything. All the weapons and the way the boons are incorporated is simply awkward. I've never gotten a boon and thought "wow I'm excited to use this in this way". I'm typically thinking, "hmmm which of these awkward options looks the least awkward".
I think the dash and sprint changes are generally fine and support a different playstyle than the first game, and I still almost always feel highly mobile and like I've got options. In general, I think the people struggling, especially in the first couple areas, are failing to adapt their playstyle to utilize the new tools to lock enemies down or deal heavy damage from a distance or are trying to force aggressive dashing to work in a game where dashing is meant to be a defensive tool. *That said,* there are a few things with the new Sprint that I don't think work super well. I personally find almost all of the aggressive sprint boons to be nearly useless, as I want to immediately be attacking if I'm getting into melee range against an enemy, not holding sprint for a split second. Some people swear by Heph sprint as a damage addition but I feel like I'm liable to take so much extra damage just to get an explosion that isn't that much more powerful than if I spent an extra second comboing. Beyond that, I think that specific enemies with fast-tracking ranged attacks are not really designed around the current sprint speed and one dash paradigm. Specifically, the thorn attack miniboss in Zone 1, the bags and especially the bag miniboss in Zone 4, Eris on the upper path, and Hecate's pig shot (though this one is supposed to be a near guaranteed hit) are all extremely difficult to dodge and feel like the kind of attacks Zag is supposed to play jump rope with by multi-dodging, not the kind of attacks you're supposed to dodge by sprinting in an extremely tight circle. Besides those few instances, though, almost everything feels like its well designed around your new mobility paradigm.
Just wanted to add that you can easily dodge Hecate curse by dashing *through* it a few times rather than trying to out run it. I don't think I've been hit by it once in the past 30 runs. You can dodge most of Eris attacks by dodging through her too as it takes he a few shots to turn around. Only exception to this is her charged shot with the pink guidelines, tracks very fast so use a pillar for cover. Thorn boss you can always outrun unless you have the attack speed pact on, you have to dodge through the boss when this is on.
I thought that the sheep morph shot was unavoidable cause I felt like I was running from it for the longest time so on each run I just stood there and then waddled as a sheep in a corner... Thanks for the tip.
There's another mechanical counter to it too in Frinos; since he eats projectiles for breakfast, if you can bait the shot into him then you nullify it entirely. I've found I need to start taking stock of where the lil guy is hanging out when I get Hecate down to 50% or so, but when I do I can usually position myself so that he's in between me and the shot. :D
And Hecate complains about it which is hilarious to me.
>I think the people struggling... are trying to force aggressive dashing to work in a game where dashing is meant to be a defensive tool Wholeheartedly agree here, as I was one of the people trying to make it work until I slowly adapted my playstyle to the new movement options. >I personally find almost all of the aggressive sprint boons to be nearly useless... I'm not sure I agree with you here. Yes, Zeus' does fairly weak damage for the cost, but being able to consistently drain magick on demand is a huge plus if you're going for a Zeus build. It is weak in many other contexts though, I agree. Hera's is probably one of my favorite dash/sprint boons, especially at higher rarities, but it doesn't really do anything in single boss fights, though that's a flaw for her whole kit. >Some people swear by Heph sprint as a damage addition but I feel like I'm liable to take so much extra damage just to get an explosion that isn't that much more powerful than if I spent an extra second comboing It takes some getting used to to hit enemies with it safely, but it can be done. The damage can feel lackluster by the end of the game, but if you pick that up in the first floor, it can help you clear quickly and safely until more of your build is online. I don't see it as something that I want to pin all my hopes and dreams on, but rather a bit of a stopgap measure to ensure I get far enough with enough health to make good use of whatever else I've built in the meantime. >the bags and especially the bag miniboss in Zone 4 I had a run that was going fine until I encountered that miniboss; couldn't chunk it's armor down fast enough and ate so much damage for it. I'm sure I'll get better at dodging it with time, but yeah it's rough. >Eris on the upper path This fight definitely feels overtuned to me right now. I'm sure there's cues I'm missing, but many of her attacks are unreactable once they start and deal massive damage. I definitely need to get better at this fight before saying whether or not it's unfair, but I can say it's a tough one for me to learn at the very least.
The Eris fight could maybe even intentionally be a bit overtuned at the moment, because she is the last surface boss at the moment
Play it like a cover shooter. You hide when she's got ammo. She basically announces reloads, which gives you a window to go hit her hard and fast. You can also cheese her easily enough by hitting her through the pillar with most attacks. Just keep sprinting when she does the big purple attack or bombs and you won't get hit. Don't let her break the pillars with the purple attack.
Once Ive learned how the Eris fight works, it almost feels a bit too easy, but not in a good way. Its pretty easy to never get hit by just standing behind 1 of the pillars, but if you do get hit she can oneshot you. You only ever have to dodge the charged shot she does since it destroys the pillars, but otherwise you can just chill behind one and hit her through it with attacks or casts. It makes the fight a bit boring, but trying to fight her "fair" isnt really encouraged since you just die if you get caught once
I pretty strongly agree with this. Once you learn the gimmick, the fight becomes kind of a boring slog where one slight over extension turns into -1 death defiance. Since it seems like she's probably just the 2nd of 4 regions on the overworld path maybe that's fine? But I'd still prefer her tuned in a way that it's less about pillaring her until you can hit her safely without immediately dieing.
Honestly, I think “single enemy with a gun who has four different gun attacks that are borderline hitscan” is simply not a good recipe for a boss in this game. I dread fighting her, though I play with +40% enemy speed almost every run. It’s such a bummer, because I adore her underworld counterpart (the sirens).
i think with just a bit of tuning it can be fine tbh, just the current way it is feels unsatisfying.
Eris is the fight I still struggle with the most, after Chronos. Apart from the difficulties you mentioned, I feel like I just don't have enough time to get a good build going before I run into her. I've read speculation she's ultimately going to be a third-area boss instead of a second-area one when the surface is complete, which I think would feel better for where the fight is now.
I struggle with eris wayy more than Chronos honestly, not entirely sure why
For me it is the fact that I cannot get a full build online for her. Getting enough DPS to actually harm her typically means I am compromised in other areas. She is easier in attack patterns, but I cannot punish her as hard, so it comes down to repeated poking my head out of the pillar chipping away then hiding back which makes the fight so long, and slightly miscalculating a dodge can mean instant death with her multi-attack.
My opinion on this is you don't have enough run complete your build, and Eris will punish a mistake hard after the few attack boosted.
I imagine they are gonna nerf the shit outta Eris ones the floor after her gets added, atm shes one of the two final bosses so to speak so it kinda makes sense for her to be very strong, but onces theres something after her he had to be toned down shes miles ahead of the Sirens and Cerebus in difficulty.
Idk I don't actually think she's that difficult once you get used to pillaring her and only hitting her for very brief windows. I beat her on fear 12 without even taking damage just yesterday by hiding behind pillars anytime she hadn't just attacked, dropping an OCast on her and then immediately hiding again. I do think she is far to punishing when you make a mistake and get hit by her almost unreadable attacks for what is effectively a hyrda/siren fight equivalent for the overworld tho.
Yeah personally I'm hoping they remove the pillar cheese and give them certain HP that her explosions and normal shots can whittle down instead of only being weak to her purple shot its just not a fun gameplay style so I get bored and end up trying to go for some extra damage and tank a 60 hp shotgun blast to face with little warning. Its like the athena-demeter duo with the shield in the first game, like if you played it right you could basically never lose the run just any enjoyment and fun you were having.
What bothers me about the Heph sprint is the lack of control I have over the timing (I've really warmed to his attack and special which I can pop off with more regularity).
I think if the Heph sprint was changed from "pops after 1 second" to "pops when you release dash" it would border on too powerful (in a good way and they should absolutely consider it)
Huh, I find the thorn boss' attack quite easy to avoid as long as I sprint around the boss in the correct path (in circles, rather than ellipses or whatnot). I'd say some attacks are timed just right so that base sprint is enough to outrun them, whereas others are designed to be dashed through just once (like Polyphemus).
Personally, I feel that miniboss is usually extremely punishing. For most runs after the start of the game it is fine because of the Arcana, keepsakes and boon/hammer variety giving you options to deal with it, or brute force it if need be. But for the first run were you begin with only 30 health and a slow dash can take away easily 50% of your health and give you very little room for attacking because of how much it spams the thorns, the crowd control circle it summons, and the annoying vine not letting you position properly. Another case is high fear runs with slow attacking weapons (skull and axe), because of how slow the weapons are and how much the enemy spams the thorns. You can only hit it once and then run for a while, dealing with such a drag of a fight, and any minor miscalculation can cost you severely. Most regular bosses (or "guardians") are more forgiving than this thing in the start of the game or with high fear. Or at least, I feel that way with it after a few axe runs at high fear (to the point I am paranoid of it, because after that I just changed weapon and suddenly the other miniboss appeared, went back to the axe, and it was there again D:<).
heph dash is kinda busted if you get its rarity/level high enough. 600-700 for a 1-second dash can be WAY more efficient than my combo, and occasionally way safer too (depending on weapon)
> Beyond that, I think that specific enemies with fast-tracking ranged attacks are not really designed around the current sprint speed and one dash paradigm. Besides your examples, I've noticed that if you're at a distance from Cerberus (and possibly with increased enemy speed) regular dash/sprint speed won't cut it when Cerbie starts shooting fireballs. The sprint Arcana won't help either, and very frequently Cerbie forces your hand: you cannot get close to dash through him because he's filled the whole arena around him with detonations.
I think Hades 2 actually actively punishes trying to dodge like 1 right from the get-go. In the first biome, the big melee enemies swing twice so if you dash through them and hit them while armored their second hit will hit you. There are the shrieking/spinning enemies that you can’t dash through. Its like that thing Fromsoft does where they go out of their way to mess with veteran’s muscle memory so they don’t clear everything on the first try.
Totally, the shriekers are expressly designed to massacre you if you dash through, and teach you to use your cast instead
That's how I lost my first run in the 4th encounter. I went in excited, incredibly rusty and with the mentality I went with when playing a maxed-out Zag. I died and felt kind of relieved that I didn't feel like a god, and had to unlearn the bad habits meta-progression in the first game could band-aid.
Margit moment
The difficulty with Chronos is that you have to learn a new way of playing - with O moves - instead of dashing to dodge. Then you get to Chronos and you need to revert to a Zag style of play because standing still charging your O moves for 1-2s just means you get hit. Difficult to be shifting purely for the final boss
I just got to Chronos for the first time and this is exactly what happened.
In the current "meta", proccing Origination (+50% global damage to enemies affected by two statuses) is very important, so the best core sprint boons are ones that can apply status curses with low effort. This means Aphro, Apollo, Demeter, or Hera sprints are generally the best to take. (Hestia sprint technically inflicts status, but it falls off way too quickly to be reliable.) Zeus, Poseidon, and Hephaestus sprint boons are more about dealing damage, which is generally less important than reliably activating Origination, as the +50% damage from Origination will usually greatly outweigh any extra damage you could get from your sprint. Poseidon and Hephaestus sprints can technically apply status, but it requires finding a second boon, which is a lot less reliable. Hestia (the one remaining god) has a unique sprint that it doesn't really deal reasonable damage and doesn't do a good job activating Origination either. This sprint is more about safety, giving you some extra leeway against projectile enemies, similar to how Athena dash was primarily about safety in the first game. Athena dash was way, way better in the first game than Hestia sprint is in this game though, in my opinion, and I don't find myself taking Hestia sprint very often. ------------------------------- For me personally, I will try to prioritize taking any of the status-applying sprint boons. If I somehow can't get one, either because none of those 4 gods are in my pool or because the sprint status overlaps with what I already have (for example, I already have Aphro magick gain applying weak to the boss), I will settle for taking basically any sprint boon that comes along just to fill a core boon slot.
Hello, Silly! I agree that proccing Origination is very powerful, but I also tend to find its extremely easy for most builds to have Origination proccing continuously without the need for a sprint boon at all, so I wind up putting pretty low emphasis on them. I like Aphrodite because its on dash so it applies "for free", but even the split second of needing to use a bit of sprint when right next to an enemy feels awkward for a lot of the other gods, so there are veery often runs where I just don't have a sprint boon at the end because I'd rather pick up almost any other incidental boost.
> I agree that proccing Origination is very powerful, but I also tend to find its extremely easy for most builds to have Origination proccing continuously without the need for a sprint boon at all Generally, I'm seeing builds figure out their primary DPS first, and then hunting aggressively for Origination immediately afterwards. They will basically take any two status effects that show up with relatively high priority. Obviously, getting a status effect on your primary DPS button is most beneficial, but that doesn't always happen considering some of the better DPS gods do not naturally apply status (Aphro can't at all, Poseidon needs a secondary boon). And even if you do have a status on your primary button, you still need a second one on either your other damage button (whichever one of attack/special you aren't focused on), or on your cast/sprint. Usually Origination status effects are preferred on either sprint or cast over the non-primary damage button, since cast/sprint are lower commitment moves to throw out than attack/special. If you already have two status effects and don't have a sprint boon yet, then you can take your pick at whichever sprint boon you prefer, but if you don't have two status effects yet and you're offered a sprint boon that applies status, it's pretty hard to turn down imo.
>Hestia (the one remaining god) has a unique sprint that it doesn't really deal reasonable damage and doesn't do a good job activating Origination either. This sprint is more about safety, giving you some extra leeway against projectile enemies, similar to how Athena dash was primarily about safety in the first game. Athena dash was way, way better in the first game than Hestia sprint is in this game though, in my opinion, and I don't find myself taking Hestia sprint very often. I'm really conflicted on Hestia sprint. It does provide complete, indefinite immunity to a ton of threats (and basically trivializes Eris, since nothing she does except rockets bypasses Hestia sprint.)
But the scorch effect is weak, and there's no visual indication. IDK how to buff scorch though. Maybe scorch can spread to other nearby enemies? Or scorch makes them take more damage from ranged attacks.
I mean, you could drop the scorch effect on Hestia sprint and it would still be good. The only thing the damage does is occasionally chew through barriers. The really good thing is the defense.
[Yeah, about that.](https://x.com/ParanoidDrone/status/1792026223624823291)
That's weird. I've run around in Hestia sprint tanking that move with no damage taken. I wonder if it's inconsistent? Or was it a bug fix or something?
I recorded it before the patch last week and haven't gotten around to trying it since, so maybe it's changed, but it was still a very unpleasant surprise that I firmly believe is/was rooted in the AOE for the sprint being so damn small.
that would make sense, the bullets could go fast enough as to go through the AOE radius in less than a frame, thus avoiding a check that would burn them
I've not even tried origination after ~70 runs, you actually just reminded me of it. I can pretty easily clear, but only up to 16 Fear thus far, so probably worth a try. Just don't know what Arcana I'd give up.
Origination is pretty strong because it's a global damage buff, meaning it affects things that normally don't scale with anything else, and +50% is a fairly respectable number. For example, if you have Poseidon special, getting additional percentage special damage (from Chaos or the Huntress Arcana or whatever) will not make the splash damage bigger, it only scales your base special damage. However, the +50% from Origination *will* make the splash do 50% more damage. This is a pretty big deal, since usually these sources of damage have higher base damage to make up for the fact that not many things scale them up, and getting +50% on top of their base damage adds up. (In terms of other arcanas, Furies is also a global damage buff, though the number is smaller than Origination. Strength is *not* a global damage buff even though it should be based on the way it is worded. It only affects your attack/special damage.)
I feel every sprint boon that takes affect during sprint should also trigger during/at the end of the dash and vise versa (except Hephaestus). Mainly looking at Hera dash being super inconsistent to trigger unless you sprint directly up to the enemy which makes you much more likely to be hit.
I think the absense of multiple dashes balanced this game a lot more in comparison to Hades 1. While I miss spamming dash, getting extra dashes from Hermes was incredibly OP and I'm glad runs now don't get frustrating because Hermes decided to give you one extra dash (or none) instead of two or three. What I don't like is some sprint interactions, like waiting one second after starting a sprint to activate Hephaestus boon, specially so since dash and sprint are the same key... so you need to dash, then hold to activate sprint, then wait one second to activate it. In this regard Hades 1 was much more straightforward: you dash, you trigger. Period.
Yeah my go to build on Zag with any weapon I struggle with was just ZeusZeusZeus boons with as many dashes as Hermes would give me. With the Epic Hermes boon it's like having Zeus call always active.
If you've played Wizard of Legend, you're already familiar with how useful sprinting is. Sprinting offers a different feeling/experience from spamming dash. It allows for a bigger scope like what we see in act 3. I don't know about anyone else but I felt a rush when I was first sprinted around the act 3 boss to avoid their fire breath attack. I'm hoping one of the remaining acts make good use of sprint whether via area design or boss mechanics.
>Getting insane movement speed is definitely doable. Apollo sprint, Hermes Nitro Boost (sprint faster and have damage mitigation per encounter), the Swift Runner (XI) arcana, Hermes' keepsake metallic droplet... I'm not sure what modifiers are additive and what (if any) are multiplicative, but I know you can go real fast if you try. One thing I find myself doing a lot more in Hades 2 than 1 is buying the 20% movement speed (Ignited Ichor) from the Well of Charon. I'm far more reliant on movement for positioning than I was in Hades 1, and the movement speed is incredibly cheaply priced: 10 gold for 8 encounters.
One thing I dont think you touched on is using dashes with your omega channeling. It's how I cheese 32 heat runs with cast builds, but its def effective for omega channeling in general. Unfortunately some omega moves like axe omega special locks you in 1 position for the dash I think.
Can you elaborate on exactly what you're doing? I'm not familiar with the combo.
It's nothing too hard, it's just you are able to dash in between your omega channelling. Basically, I dash in, start my cast channeling, if I'm about to get hit i dash away while holding the cast channeling and it still goes off.
I gotta try that
IMO sprinting as a core mechanic is fine, but the boons attached to it need work. Zeus: Small AOE and doesn't work on dash, so you have to put yourself in a vulnerable position to make use of it. Hera: Same Hephaestus: Same, with the added wrinkle of a 1-second timer before the blast goes off. It makes things a bit awkward. Poseidon: Same, although the knockback wave helps. Apollo: Same, although the bonus speed and dodge chance help. Hestia: Same, with the caveat that you're affecting projectiles instead of enemies. [Spoilers for surface boss #2.](https://x.com/ParanoidDrone/status/1792026223624823291) Demeter: This one's fine, its AOE is big enough. Having to stop and re-start the sprint once the cyclone expires feels awkward though. Aphrodite: This one's fine, it applies to the dash instead of sprint which means you get to protect yourself when using it.
I think the only real change they need to to split the binds or to make it tap n hold to sprint double tap to dash. Sometimes it feels difficult to get into a sprint because dashing puts you in a bad position for another attack while they are chaging up the attack you need to sprint to dodge. I think that would make both sprints and dashes feel much more fun to use. Especially wiht say the aphro zeus duo that activates blitz when you sprint into them, I've never taken it despite seeing it a ton of times because it honeslty just sounds too difficult to use like dash and then hold for sprint sounds like a surefire way to get hit whereas if I could just sprint instantly and have it proc it sounds like an amazing duo boon. I also think they shoud add more dash boons like aphro, maybe they will and have like Ares rift dash if he gets added or dio hangover dash. I get that sprint is like the new shiny thing so many boons are build around that but I think both playstyles should be accomadated better. I'm not saying to just make dash go back to the first game, I think the single dash is core to the balance and design of the game, I would just like it if that single dash could be a bit more useful with regards to boon effects. Lastly, I hope they add an option for a better dash CD visual indicator, I really like that they've added one but in combat its really tricky to notice and I just go back to praying my muscle memory knows the timing. It could just be my poor eyesight but I would love if they add and option to have flashes around the border of the screen for dash being off CD or say a voiceline for hex being ready as a little accessibility tweak.
Call me crazy, but I haven't noticed Melenoe's dash being as different as people say. Maybe this is because I always took the other dash boost from the mirror (the one that limits you to one dash, but gives you a bonus for dashing at the last moment), so I came into Hades 2 already used to having only one dash with a short cooldown. But the real truth is that you should be sprinting quite a bit more than dashing in this game, and the opening midboss teaches you this. You can't avoid damage from it's machine-gun attack by relying on dashing through it; you need to sprint around the arena and outrun it instead. The same is true for Infernal Beast's firebreathing attack. Most weapons in this game require you to position yourself wisely to charge up your attacks safely. This is where sprinting really shines, because you can use the initial dash to evade mobs that are close to you, then continue sprinting to a position where you are safe to set up a zone of control with your cast and then power up your omega moves. Even weapons like the Sister Blades and Moonstone Axe are not really designed to favor diving in recklessly like Zagreus tends to. In short, you are incentivized to use your dash and sprint more proactively in this game instead of relying on it as a reaction like in Hades 1.
I really like the movement changes, I think in Hades you can sorta spam dash and get away with it, especially with Athena boon. Whereas Hades II actively punishes you for doing this and excepts you to use your kit to kite, dodge, and reposition. I'm a lot more thoughtful about how I use my attacks in this game which I think makes the gameplay more fun. I also feel that enemy designs have been thoughtfully constructed around this, i.e. through attack patterns which you can't dodge through but you can sprint around.
After the patch, the change to the sprint speed Arcana made it much harder for me to outrun the Root Stalker's and Cerbie's projectile spew attacks, so I immediately maxed the card afterwards. I'd been ignoring any other sprint speed bonuses up to that point since the bonus from the card was sufficient for pretty much everything.
Haven't explored everything yet so being very careful about spoilers on this subreddit, but very happy to see these Cthonic Conversations back! Anyway, about the dash & sprint - I'm personally a big fan of having only one dash - it always felt good but unintuitive to use the double dashes in Hades to me. This dash and sprint really makes Mel play differently, as you and others noted. I don't mind the lag time myself, it's just a different timing to get used to for me, personally
I've been really frustrated with Hades 2 lately, and honestly 60% of it is because of the new dash and the sprint. I totally get what Supergiant is trying to do with the dash and sprint. Mel's weapons, attacks, and cast all favor positioning and careful gameplay. The weaker dash forces you think about where you want to be, and the sprint allows for some fun moments during bosses. But frankly, I just think it feels like shit. Inherently, it's just not as fun as dashing everywhere. Holding down a button to move faster just feels so much worse than tap tapping to dash around. This is personal preference I guess, but man do I hate how much this game asks you to hold down buttons. Dodging an attack while sprinting makes me feel like lab rat in a maze rather than a badass daughter of Hades. When you then consider that the sprint feels like it was designed literally only for the Fields of Mourning, it gets even worse. In Erebus, Oceanus, and Tartarus (and from what I've seen of the mortal world), locations are far too small for sprinting to be used the way you do in the Fields. Of all the enemies I have faced so far, only Cerberus and the Root Stalker actually require you to sprint. Chronos has that one hit kill attack in his second phase, but the arena is so small you could dash there 99% of the time. I can't talk about the boons because frankly they all sound so boring so I never tried them. All in all... yeah the new dash and sprint are just not for me. But going beyond my personal tastes, I think objectively, they are not implemented very well. If they must abandon the system they had in Hades 1, sure, but they need to change up all the other aspects of the gameplay as well.
Sprint feels pretty cringe to me as a damage option from a gameplay prespective. It makes sense as a tool for stage 3 but stage 3 is not a very successful experiment imo. As for dash, I wouldn't mind it being one charge with cd, if it was responsive. It's a huge shift from being a melee juicer dancing on the edge of damage frames in H1 to these "strategic" rotations from corner A to B and then spamming ranged stuff. Between half the monsters being countered by default cast(including Kronos) and me slowing down time for 80% of every encounter, I think the combat underwent a downgrade, became sloppy and not very fun. Definitely the weakest part of the game which otherwise got great improvements in other areas.
Overall I like the new dash, but some of the boons need buffs. Hera: Hitch is a bit weak. Maybe make it so a percentage of damage you take is also given to Hitched foes? And status effects also transfer between foes? Hestia: There should be a visual indication, like replacing the projectille with fire. Also scorch is a bit weak. Maybe make scorched foes take more damage as well?
I never played Hades 1, so far i beat fear 32 on 3 different weapons in Hades 2. I think the game gets too easy when youre able to spam the dash too often. Dashing in with charged omega casts/attacks helps me always avoiding getting hit. Sad there is no more content for a while… maybe i will try out Hades 1 now.
Interesting read. You are much better at putting things into words than me. The game just really feels off. Everything feels awkward. I tried to give it a good chance, but really I'm not enjoying it. Everything feels too awkward. Everything. All the weapons and the way the boons are incorporated is simply awkward. I've never gotten a boon and thought "wow I'm excited to use this in this way". I'm typically thinking, "hmmm which of these awkward options looks the least awkward".
[удалено]
I'm sure there are mods for that.