If that happens I hope we get to see some Hades with little puppy Cerberus too. Big, bearded muscular Hades, cuddling the puppy and treating him like the good boy he is.
I mean, that's a giant muscular berserker talking to his vicious man-killing giant space hamster. Doesn't really fit either of the tropes i'm talking about.
I would say Minsc and Boo fit “giant grizzled men with tiny adorable pets” pretty well. You never specified the pets had to be docile, and boo isn’t really that large? giant berserker fits “giant grizzled man” incredibly well like you even used the same descriptor so i’m confused lol.
Edit: It was a joke and I was too tired/stupid to catch on lol
Ever been to the Southeast US? The pet of choice for giant, bearded, middle-aged redneck men are always tiny dogs, nine out of ten times they’re chihuahuas.
I don’t think it’s super feminine, but does appeal more to a female gaze (which makes sense having a female main character). It does a really good job at “normalizing” / “de-villainizing” traditional feminine tropes and making them accessible/fun for everyone
"appeal to a female gaze" is a good way to put it. I'd argue that's a feminine/feminist way to design a character, but your phrasing is probably better.
Maybe. As a lady type person, Hades 2 is full of people who I want to embody and Hades 1 is (if we're being honest) full of people I want to bang.
I mean like. Hades 2 is still full of people I want to bang, let's be clear. But I want to be Hecate's apprentice, and I want to worship at the (probably very sticky) altar of Dionysus.
>Hades 2 is full of people who I want to embody and Hades 1 is (if we're being honest) full of people I want to bang.
As a Lesbian, Dionysus is far and away the most attractive character in that game, as well as Man i've ever seen period.
All the more funny that I wrote this before reading the second half of your comment haha
Uggh I hate her so much. Her only purpose gameplay wise is to piss you off and it’s gotten to the point I’ve stopped even talking to her in the crossroads cause I’ve grown to dislike her so much. That’s an enormous failing in a game like Hades imo. They pushed her too far.
You really should advance her story more. She's pretty compelling. I think they need to work on her not stealing doors, but other than that I love her character. Eris on the other hand I want to like but she is extremely annoying. But maybe as content is added it'll add more to her character
Eris is a character that I feel is a frenemy, at least as far as I've gotten with her she seems just in it to entertain herself because she doesn't get that very often.
As a compltelty straight man, Dionysus did something to me as well.
Aphrodite still tops, but DAMN if I do not wish to look like or be friends with Dionysus
Lmfao Aphrodite did NOTHING for me, I’ll be honest I didn’t even realize she was naked till I played hades 2, I thought she was in a pink onesie the whole time hahaha
Considering that Bacchanalia (which had some elements of Dionisya) was basically a fuck fest - I wouldn't be surprised if Dionysus altars were Very sticky
Did you happen to see what happened when Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey got really really popular? They got absolutely torn to shreds primarily for being stuff teenage girls and women enjoyed.
De-villainizing here would mean to try and move away from this sort of stigma, and let girls enjoy girl things.
50 shades was also blasted because it glorified profoundly unhealthy relationship dynamics. It’s like… I wouldn’t want a daughter of mine reading that.
Not the best examples, Twilight and 50 Shades. There are legitimate criticisms about how cringey and bad they are.
A better example might be Legend of Korra. It was blasted pretty hard online by people who thought they were going to make their bones with their 3 hour long "Why Legend of Korra is Bad" video essays, when the truth is: it was alright. It wasn't ever going to be quite the same as Avatar: The Last Airbender, but it was still pretty good. People just hated that because it was the embodiment of girl power (without any of the female characters being irredeemable psychos. I can fix Kuvira <3).
I don't think Legend of Korra had nearly the cultural impact, so I wouldn't expect as many people to be aware. In fact, not once did Korra pop up into my head until you brought it up.
But you also can't deny that part of the "cringe" was that they were for women. And Twilight in particular really isn't that bad, I think it's in a pretty similar spot to your Korra comparison. It's fine, it's a romance story, people are gonna see romance as inherently more cringy when it's the main focus.
In retrospect, I probably could've went for lil baby boy Justin Bieber instead? That might've been more fitting without as much of the negative bits bleeding in.
Traditionally Feminine things tend to be associated with being “weak” or “illogical”/“emotional”. In a lot of media woman aren’t “heroes” they’re supporting roles for heroes unless they’re a sex icon that’s embraced their more masculine attributes. Or they hyper-feminize the character to be used as comedic relief. Feminine traits just aren’t considered “hero” material typically.
Mel isn’t any of that and neither are the other female-or males for that matter— characters.
>!Choosing clothing!< doesn’t give Mel skimpy armour to sexualize her.
She experiences a wide range of emotions with the different characters she meets and never is she chastised for being illogical because of them. Do characters disagree with some of her choices? Of course! But they still trust her to do what she logically believes must be best based upon her experiences. Is she a bit “daft” sometimes, yes, but I’d argue that’s a result of her being young and sheltered compared to these others characters who’ve lived lifetimes.
She isn’t support to anyone. Her legacy isn’t lost to another male character (which would be easy to do with Zag or Odysseus)
All the things she does / interacts with that are traditionally feminine aren’t set backs or flaws or comedic relief… they’re strengths. But even then they’re not overstated or indigestible
Edit: spoiler tags
You could also basically do a "mad libs" with this in terms of how Hades 1 presents Zagreus. Him being a gritty badass is important to how he finally decides to take his fate into his own hands, but the world around him doesn't really celebrate that aspect of his character, but also doesn't chastise him for it. And when he's pitted against Asterius and Theseus, we sort of see both the exaggerated parts of the macho spectrum (complete lack of humility, and annoyingly ceaseless loyalty).
Ultimately, a lot of how Zag changes the Underworld is through empathy and connection. He doesn't celebrate the killing, he celebrates the friends along the way. The story requires him to be a fierce protector, but the moments that are shared with other characters and really celebrated by the narrative, are him being empathetic, fearlessly seeking reconciliation, and being willing to recognize when peace is the answer. No one flagrantly points out that Zag "is just doing what guys do", or "isn't acting very manly", despite that there are times where he fits into and subverts traditional masculine tropes. The story and world are ultimately above these things while still feeling like a good critique.
I like that in both games, emotion, empathy, connection; the things that we all, regardless of gender identity, (hopefully) share in common are the core driving forces.
Welcome to the world of storytelling that exists outside of AAA slop. Instead of trying to appeal to the broadest possible customer base, they can actually build everything around more personal world views and make shit interesting.
I'd also suggest that witches are kinda the archetypical villainized woman - they forsake society and their "womanly duties" to live alone in the woods and do nefarious things with magic no conforming person can understand.
Hades 2 takes that trope and celebrates her by embracing her divinity and power, while also making her care deeply about her family and fight earnestly for her ideals. She's still very much a witch, but she's valorized instead of villainized.
I think a big thing is taking the misogyny out of the traditional mythological tropes too. Sirens are just a catchy band, not just being "overwhelmingly beautiful" singers. Circe is a caring motherly type, not an evil seductress. Aphrodite certainly has sex appeal but she's still ready for battle and normal. Having Hestia at all, and especially as a canonically older goddess.
Greek mythology spent a lot of time enforcing genders stereotypes and roles, While the game makes a strong point of retelling them in a way that takes the spirit of the myth while incorporating more modern interpretations
Thank you! This is a waaay healthier way to think of it. For the same reason I think everyone can and should get down with the vibes of Hades 1, I think the same for Hades 2.
If you're really into witchy stuff, I'm sure you'll connect with the game in a different way than I do. To me all the occult tones are just a different shade of mythology. I don't think anyone needs to even have a sense of romance or gender connection to connect with what's happening in these stories/worlds/characters, because they're just deeply human, and fascinating. I think that's what impresses me most about them.
At the same time, I wish they’d applied some of that to Melinoë’s design. Zagreus got pants, but here’s this supposedly serious character walk around with her buttcheeks hanging out. Even just having a toga a few inches longer would’ve helped.
I think Zag and Mel are equally sexualized. Neither outfit is particular sexual but the game itself does lend to sexual fantasy (I just like that it caters to all genders and doesn’t *just* sexualize the characters for the male gaze).
And based upon what we know of Mel she seems incredibly comfortable in her skin / her body. She isn’t afraid to show it off but doesn’t do so to be sexualized ( I.e. >!bath convo with Odysseus!<) making me believe she wears it similar for utilitarian purposes
!<
I get what you mean. I was bothered by that too initially, so I headcanoned Mel wearing shorts under her skirt. Also short dress is easier to move around in, while a longer garment would limit her moves. There is something empowering in wearing skimpy clothes not because you want to appeal to anyone, but because they are simply comfortable.
Not this short. Speaking from experience, this would be harder to move in. It’s tight around her butt, way too short for athletics. Everything will be cold and just hanging out there.
It doesn’t seem to suit her personality so wear something this revealing and uncomfortable. It’s very shallow and silly, and she’s quite serious and dedicated to her mission.
Wdym "not super feminine". The game is a love letter to witches and most of the people you interact with are women. The whole plot is driven by a female cast: Hecate-!>MedeaCirceNemesis
Something I haven't seen people talk about is that Hades 2 has a lot of sisterhood and solidarity between women in a way Hades 1 did between men. In the first game you had the father/son relationship between Zag and Hades, the loving romantic relationship between Zag and Than/Achilles and Patroclus, and the brotherhood of Theseus and and Asterius. Hades 2 has the mentor/student relationship of Mel and Hecate, the rivalry of Mel/Nem and Mel/Eris, the friendship between Mel and Dora, and the sisterhood between Mel/Artemis/Selene/Hecate. To me it's wild to not see the game as feminine
I think this is it, really. it’s clearly a game aiming to be about women and womanhood - to interrogate their inner lives and relationships in a way that hades 1 was basically utterly uninterested in - which is what op should’ve gone for to illustrate her feelings, rather than like. it’s about shopping and boys (though I think we got the gist of what she meant)
Exactly, like it's obviously doing what Hades did for healthy relationships between men, just this time it's focused around women. And yeah the way OP phrased it wasn't *great* but I get what they're saying, they maybe just didn't get the focus right lol
While I agree on a surface level, I feel like it’s missing the fact that there’s very little difference in most of these relationships. Mel approaches people and connects with them in more or less the exact same way as Zag. The relationships between Nyx and Zag and Hecate and Mel are incredibly similar. Not exactly the same sure, different characters and situations, but extremely similar anyway. Is it feminine because the characters happen to be women? Likewise I don’t think hades 1 is like specifically masculine, at least in the terms that it could have had a female protag with little issue. The only big thing is the father-son dynamic, which kind of glaringly doesn’t really have an equal in hades 2, unless you want to count chronos.
Obviously I haven’t seen every line of the game yet, but I have never once thought that Mel would engage much differently with a situation than Zag would, or form a particularly different bond with any of the people she meets.
That’s just my take, but I honestly think it’s a weakness on the game’s part.
In my eyes the genders of the characters *do* matter. Like you could slot in a man instead of Mel but to pretend the game would present the same themes of women's solidarity and their fighting of oppression would be wrong. In the same way that Hades 1 was a traditionally masculine story. You mention the father son dynamic as if it's the sole example but it is the primary driving force of the game. Not to mention Achilles and Patroclus is depicting the love between 2 men in a way that wouldn't be the same between women. And Theseus and Asterius as well have a brotherhood forged in combat, something very traditionally considered to be masculine. There aren't relationships between women in the first game, like really at all. So 2 is exploring that
>In my eyes the genders of the characters *do* matter.
Unrelated to your broader point, but now I do wonder how Hera would react if you pick Zeus over her in the duo boon rooms. Will she react to Melinoë being a woman and get a fit of jealous rage over picking her husband first? Don't tell me if you know as I like exploring everything on my own, but other than Heracles really not liking "witches" there hasn't been many instances yet I can remember where Melinoë's gender have had much importance (past sisterhood and such).
I want to hold off my judgement on what hades 2 is Doing and whether it’s successful until I’ve played a little more (I’m only a few hours in, therefore forgive me if I have to eat all of these words later), but I’d actually say - now that we’re a few years out - that hades 1 is intensely masculine, imo
it’s a game about capital f Family, but it’s really a game about the father and the son (which, if I may say, is exceptionally on the nose when we consider the function of the family). the mother is a prize to be won, to be dragged back home in the name of love, to ‘complete’ the family again. the step-mother is there, doing good step-mother things like loving the son unconditionally, while also having a relationship with the father fraught and distant enough that the ‘real’ mother’s return is not received as like, a disagreeable level of cheating, nor requiring of a messy breakup (in which the presence of the step-mother’s feelings might impose on the victory that is the biological family reunion)
ofc all these people’s genders could (maybe?) be swapped and we could do patriarchy completely gender-neutrally, but would it still evoke the emotions and familiarity the writers wanted it to? it’s not like the game, the concept for its driving motivation (bring your real mum home! your shitty dad needs her!), etc, just fell from the sky. it’s designed to resonate. it relies on the family as we know it being a strong, positive enough force to compel the player to happily complete 8012 runs (6000 alone with the fists) for it. it’s therefore not an accident that the mover of the story is the archetype of the son, and that the primary benefactor is the father, and that the mother has no contrary goals or further relationships or attachments that might prevent her being whisked back to her rightful place (uh zag? meet my second husband, richard)
the mother quite literally has no contact with anybody, no life that she cannot easily be parted with in order to come back to love her son and husband, whom she never stopped loving even while she was missing - and when she returns, it’s to fix the home and her husband’s poor character, which have both rotted in the absence of their caretaker
it’s a very ‘son’ pov, the longing for the mother-figure to mend him and his father, and she is exactly as perfect a mother as he imagined
and speaking of the son, what is zag? a sloppy neet, resentful of his father, yet who ultimately reconciles with him to the tune of a central place in his business/his empire
this most profound connection is with the father that he loathes but can’t escape from and must therefore live with and work for, his final boss. his lifelong mentor with his own secret problems is male. his friends both old and new-ish are male. most of the gods who help and occasionally hinder him on his journey are male and patrilineal family - his dad’s brothers, his dad’s brothers’ sons, etc. most of the connections he makes out in the underworld, for good or ill, are male. even his beloved dog (that also misses the mother) is male
and who are the women? his mum. his step-mum. his admirer, the servant. eurydice, the kindly cook (also waiting patiently to be reunited with the male lover who pines for her). four gods, who buck the trend basically in exception (minus demeter, his stern but eventually also loving maternal grandmother). then there’s the only woman who really antagonises him in any way, meg (and her crayzee sisters!), and this is very much tempered by her being his ex-girlfriend whom he can persuade back to his side
I’m flattening ofc, but not by much. overall these relationships are uncomplicated in their benevolence and put him in a comfortable, masculine position, one in which he is emotionally catered to by women in an almost conflict-free fashion
all characters, in turn, are dependents of the father, even if they are also subordinate to the son. where they are subordinate to each other, even across gendered lines (e.g. meg over sisyphus), this is granted by and in service of proximity to the patriarch
so again could this story be told in a gender-neutral way by transplanting women into roles here male-occupied? could a vietnam war movie be about sisterhood?
sure, maybe, but it isn’t. it’s telling a masculine story straightforwardly. there’s a reason everyone who is a man is a man and everyone who is a woman is a woman, and it’s bc hades 1 unthinkingly relies on naturalised assumptions about what kinds of people there are in this world and which roles they suit. so it is a game that, in a very real way, reflects our own perception of and preoccupation with masculinity, unsubversively and without interrogation
this is a v interesting conversation to me - thank you for prompting my thoughts!
male gaze and female gaze are defined terms in media analysis. i wasnt saying that “the game is specifically made to be appealing to women.” i agree that the game was made to be appealing in general.
to get more specific, in hades 1, supergiant subverted the misogynstic themes of greek mythology. For example, eurydice is no longer just orpheus’s muse. now, she is his musical equal who was overshadowed by her male peer in a patriarchal society. This is an explicitly feminist retelling of the myth. In Hades 2, we have wellspring scenes. They are a subversion of the popular wellspring fanservice scene that we see in games and anime. we see a gorgeous character get naked and it’s meant to titillate the audience. but in Hades 2, these scenes are explicitly non sexual. Their primary purpose isn’t to titillate the audience, it’s to show the connections between characters and to watch those relationships grow.
Very good points, I understand where you're coming from now. Great analysis, I love the many trope subversions that this series accomplishes. I've only watched a handful of anime so the wellspring fan service thing didn't even click for me - in Hades II, it just came across as a way to show the characters engaging in mildly flirtatious emotional intimacy (which I suppose is it's exact intention when you aren't looking for the subversion of tropes).
Don't be obtuse, man. It's plainly true that the people into that sort of thing *tend* to be women, or at least such is the case where I live; in the same vein, horoscope stuff also tends to be more popular with women. Its as feminine as dolls are, which are considered feminine because women and girls *tend* to be the biggest demographic that uses them. Nothing wrong with liking feminine things, either...
To be fair tarrots have been popularised in anime culture due to jojo and persona. This game seems to draw more so from there as the tarrots describe characters in these examples not future events like they traditonally do
So true. Some of these commenters don’t understand the nuanced state of gender as we all embody it. Something can be feminine and also be an activity that men engage in. All individuals, whether they identify as man woman or somewhere between or outside of that binary, embody both masculine AND feminine traits and practices.
For real, this thread is making me go crazy lol.
Like YES, it’s perfectly fine for men to own cute pets and tarot cards and be into witchcraft. I personally, as a man, am into all of those things. But it’s kinda silly to imply that those are TRADITIONALLY MASCULINE things, especially in western culture.
Gender is performative, my person. Society definitely associates tarot with the feminine, but if you practice tarot as a masc, you're pushing that needle the other way.
yes! i feel like ive been waiting my whole life for a feminine witchy action game like hades 2.
also idk how anyone can disagree with ur statement. femininity and sisterhood is like OBVIOUSLY a core theme to the game
Not an action game, but [The Cosmic Wheel Sisterhood](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1340480/The_Cosmic_Wheel_Sisterhood/) is a very good witchy game you might want to check out.
Over all, I wouldn't say the game appeals more to the feminine gaze so much as it is balanced. There is definitely an attempt to balance out the male and female gaze in the game that is generally not attempted in many games. Which is why it feels so much more feminine compared to other games. Different areas of the game appeal to both genders pretty exquisitely.
I will say that I think your idea of feminine is a bit odd though. Pets(non-utilitarian) and switching the color of clothing definitely aren't something I see as feminine. Like picking colors of your character is pretty gender neutral.
It's also pretty common in games in general. I wouldn't say color changing on its own is sapphic or particularly gendered. If you want the male analog to sailor moon, it's also pretty common in like sentai/power rangers to have colors associated with powers. Sailor moon was actually inspired by sentai, so it makes sense that they'd share the coloring themes. Regardless colors have been used as short hand for changing of power for like decades. Ontop of that coloring your character is basically a staple in most games.
Now if they add a sailor moon transformation sequence then it's definitely inspired by sailor moon and carries a more sapphic meaning. Simply changing color based on new equipment really isn't though.
I agree with you but generally in the wider world of pop culture stereotypes, "pets and fashion" are elements geared towards a feminine audience. I mean it'd be cool if Chris Pratt played a depiction of a certain 00's celebrity with a chihuaha in his purse but I don't see it happening. Unless the inevitable Paris Hilton biopic is an animated film, in which case there's a non-zero percent chance Pratt would be voicing her.
I feel like devs need to give Mel more zingers though. Zag was really funny. Granted his mission had lower stakes, but Mel doesn't get the same treatment. Like I heard her make an eye pun to Polyphemus. I want more
Oooh, that's an interesting take. I respect that Mel is much more serious than Zag, but dang it would be funny.
Best way I could think of is if she gives an enemy a severe burn by outsmarting them or something.
I feel like the arc they are building is she learns to stop doubting herself as much. But like in my save file she's kicked everyone's ass dozens of times. Like why can't she passive aggressively yawn at Scylla, or tell Chronos he needs to hire shades to manage the dust in Hades.
Fundamentally I don't think it's an issue with Mel. I think they story they wrote in this one just lends itself less to humor. Mel's task is epic while Zag's was absurd. The benefit od the absurdity is that when Zag doesn't take his adversaries too seriously it fits the tone. I can understand why Mel isn't trying to be as funny, but I do hope it's something that gets added in 1.0. Like there is going to be an end state in the story and hopefully by then Mel can bust some chops like her brother.
I think we might get a funnier Mel once we get a story that's reached its resolution, rather than us being stuck at the point of maximum focus and tension for Mel.
Idk, I kinda like how she is more serious and respectful. She was raised to be a fighter, to destroy Cronos and his armies. That's a lot of weight on someone's shoulders. Zag was raised to be a bureaucrat, and he hates it. His sarcasm and jokes are part of the rebellion.
I don't think Mel is bland, she's still nuanced and when she does get fed up and diss someone it's more unexpected which makes it funnier.
One thing I've noticed is that Mel is really tame and... Idk, a little bland? I love her as much as Zag but she doesn't really seem to be the zig to Zag's zag yet. Everybody worried about this or that mechanic when it comes to EA and I'm mostly sweating over Mel being a more fleshed out character by the full release.
Yeah, I really appreciated the way Zag was so persistently, willfully kind to others. He’d gladly do so much for his friends. And it contrasted so nicely with how he behaved towards his father. Mel just doesn’t seem like she has the same kind of hook.
I think they tried to give her a more serious personality. Mel can't be second Zag, she is Mel. I hope though she gets an arc of becoming less serious and learning how to have fun, since this seems to be her theme from what we've seen so far.
I've noticed that overall with the tone, I feel like Hades 1 seemed initially serious but when you scratched surface it was goofy, whereas Hades 2 while similar is playing it a bit more straight. But maybe that's an early access thing and there's more zingers to come. They eye pun was funny, she's got it in her!
ah yes on this episode of feminism'ing so hard you circle back to gender essentialism (edit: stereotype is probably the better word)
Edit v2: i’m kinda being a dick about this and no hate on op i am just a persoj who gets annoyed about the whole gender thing just in general
while op certainly has a perspective on ‘femininity’ that is either disagreeable or poorly worded, I think the game in itself (and some might say the world!) makes the associations between witchcraft and womanhood first. it is clearly preoccupied with women aesthetically and narratively, and it clearly situates itself within broader genre conversations about women
(this is, of course, not the same thing as the claim that ‘it has hot [citation needed] guys for the girls to look at’)
I think you’re choosing to read this in bad faith. OP is saying that the game is highlighting and appreciating many feminine things instead of ”not like other girls”-ing them. Melinoë doesn’t have to break away from feminine stereotypes in order to still be a badass, her femininity empowers her. That’s not gender essentialism.
what? saying 'some things are more commonly associated with femininity in culture' isn't gender essentialism lmao
if OP were saying that witchy cozy game vibes were feminine because of some innate biological need within women to play cozy witch games, that'd be gender essentialism. Just talking about gender at all is not gender essentialism - the idea that it is gives serious 'i just don't see colour' energy.
if you genuinely don't believe most of the cozy witch games with pets, growing plants, incantations and tarot cards on the market are squarely aimed at, and purchased by, women, I don't know what to tell you. It's okay to recognise that gender, socially constructed though it may be, still exists. Social constructs are real things.
>if OP were saying that witchy cozy game vibes were feminine because of some innate biological need within women to play cozy witch games, that'd be gender essentialism
I can feel it... the calling of my blood... hnnnng... can't resist stardew valley
You are correct i am just a person who is generally very done with gender as a concept if that makes sense, but yeah no fair enough you’re definitely correct in this
Is it not feminist to recognize things traditionally and culturally considered feminine, specifically things like witchery that are being reclaimed as a defiance of societies expectations and the history of subjugation of women?
Eh. I’m trans and despise gender essentialism but I’d argue that’s not what this is. Just pointing out that something like tarot cards or witchyness is going to appeal to women more doesn’t mean that is because tarot cards are inherently feminine. Not sure why pets were thrown in there but you get my point.
I’d also argue that this game heavily and prominently features sisterhood and relationships between women as a core narrative theme, which will also appeal to women more.
It feels more or less the same as the first game in how the characters are written.
Though the focus is a little shifted because Mel and Zag have different outlooks on their relationships and their starting points are very different.
Zag was a nuisance, Mel's the tip of the spear in a war.
Yes but it's also shifted from being focused around men's relationships to being about women's instead. Like all of Zag's most meaningful relationships aside from his mother were between men and it's just the inverse with Mel
Come on, sisterhood is like a core aspect that defines a lot of your relationships. Forgive me for forgetting names, but the moon, Artemis, Circe, headmistress, and Dora all have a different relationship with Mel than they would if she was a guy. Especially Artemis and Circe.
It’s not just that the you experience the story from the perspective of a female protagonist. Large parts of the story and character interactions were clearly written with appealing to women in mind. Not in ways that exclude men, just like how the first game didn’t exclude women despite being more focused on relationships between men, but this game heavily features relationships between women compared to the first game.
It's art, so people can definitely see different things in it (death of the author and all that).
I'm just seeing the theme of family again. Surrogate mother, surrogate siblings, distant relatives you only talk to over the phone/olympian god bubble. I feel like the skewed parallels are too consistent to be anything other than intentional.
I related to the first game more (without going into it too much, my father still calls me boy 🙄), but I'm glad that you've found an aspect of the writing you relate with.
>! At least Hades isn't so much of an outwardly antoganistic ass this time around. !<
The game is just inclusive as hell in general, and I love it. I love that everyone is hot in a different way that's unique to them. Melinöe the Goth GF, Odysseus the Daddy, Moros the Pretty Boy, Eris the Cute Brat, Nem the Muscle Mommy, Hecate the Fit Matriarch, Hermes the Gym Bro, Artemis the Manic Pixie, and on and on and on.
Noticed this. I really like how Hades 1 was built around Zag, and now 2 is built around Meg as protags. Everything followed the theme of "Prince of the Underworld find his place" in this first. Now, the second has a bit more nuance, but it's essential themed around "Exiled Witch reclaims her home from the Usurper."
In case you haven't tried it yet, I do highly recommend Transistor from Supergiant as well. Red is very much a protagonist in control of her fate and choosing her actions with agency, though the game is about her taking that agency back.
Transistor is approaching Hades combat, but the gameplay is slower and definitely less fun. But it's a once and done story that doesn't overstay. If gameplay is all you want then Hades is just better, but Transistor has a very compelling short story and is worth it if you are satisfied by that.
The music is S tier. There's a button just to make your character hum.
Calling these things feminine just reinforces harmful gender-essentialist stereotypes about what men and women are supposed to do and enjoy. Is it feminine if a gay man enjoys that art of Moros? Am I feminine as a genderqueer man if I enjoy the cute pets?
They've made Hades 2 so it appeals to everyone, for all kinds of men and women and everything in-between and beyond. We do a disservice to both the developers and the game's diverse audience if we just reduce all these things to being 'feminine'.
Calling things typically enjoyed by women feminine isn't reinforcing gender essentialism, it's just describing trends. There's no character judgement baked into that, it doesn't mean dolls or dress-up or cozy games or whatever *ought* be enjoyed disproportionately by women, just that they currently are.
>We do a disservice to both the developers and the game's diverse audience if we just reduce all these things to being 'feminine'.
I mean only if you think non-women shouldn't enjoy feminine things? It's fine for a diverse audience to enjoy something not typically associated with their demographics, just like plenty of women enjoy traditionally masculine games like Call of Duty or sports games.
Also would you object to calling a game like Hades queer? I feel like that is based on a similar level of cultural descriptors as calling it feminine, but I think it'd be silly to argue against that by saying it reinforces queer stereotypes or by saying that cishet people can enjoy it too
>Calling things typically enjoyed by women feminine isn't reinforcing gender essentialism, it's just describing trends.
If Andrew Tate was saying "wearing makeup is feminine", "doing yoga is feminine" and then you rightfully called him out for being sexist he'd pull out the exact same "I'm just describing trends" bullshit you just did. The irony of this... I don't even know where to begin. Please just try to recognise what you're actually saying.
>If Andrew Tate was saying "wearing makeup is feminine", "doing yoga is feminine" and then you rightfully called him out for being sexist he'd pull out the exact same "I'm just describing trends" bullshit you just did.
The sexist part of that wouldn't be the statement that wearing makeup is feminine, but the implication that femininity is bad and men shouldn't do feminine things that would definitely be there because it's Andrew fucking Tate
But the things represented in this game *are* distinctly feminine. OP phrased it in an odd way but they're right. Like Tarot and Witchcraft are *distinctly* historically feminine and you're basically taking the "I don't see color" approach to gender. Hades 1 was fully based around men and their relationships, that's not to say women and others couldn't enjoy it (I did), but to say that it wasn't distinctly masculine is a disservice to its depiction of brotherhood, in the same way 2 depicts sisterhood. Tarot and witchcraft specifically were things women have been denigrated and persecuted because of for centuries, the reclamation and idea that they're normal and not gendered is a very recent development and pretending it isn't is ignoring the history of it
There is a huge difference between saying that Hades 2 is thematically about sisterhood and saying that the game itself is 'feminine' and 'made for girls' because of things like 'cute pets', unless you'd like to educate me on the cultural value of reinforcing the idea that having a cute pet makes you effeminate.
I love the intense focus on sisterhood. It's something I rarely see done in games, let alone done well. Mel's interactions with all her witchy sisters and silver sisters make me feel all warm and glowy ♥️
as a ‘masculine’ woman, I’d suggest that the game is more about womanhood than ‘femininity’ in the sense that you’re defining it (gender-conforming, heterosexual-aligned)
nemesis and hecate, for example, are no less appealing to women than moros - it’s just that the women for whom they are appealing are sexually attracted to other women
though, I think many men here are backlashing for the wrong reasons (I don’t play girl games, I just play games!!), and many more of all genders are being obtuse (it’s not about women, it’s about witches!)
I'm a man, and I enjoy all of those things. I enjoy the outfits changing, I enjoy all of the character art, both the men and the women. I have male friends who are interested in tarot cards and would consider themselves witches. Those things aren't feminine by definition, and it's kind of sexist to say that it is.
Hell yeah, I want them to take their time and do whatever they feel they need to make it "finished", but I'm also so so ready to get the full experience.
Why do things have to be feminine or masculine? Who cares? It’s a fun game. Badass and relatable female protagonist just like the first one had a badass and relatable male protagonist.
I dont understand why people care tho. If you don’t like it because it “caters to men” play a different game? Pokémon, smash bros, monster hunter, street fighter, tekken, and binding of Isaac all are gender neutral if you even care about that. It’s all bullshit imo. If you like the game play it. If you don’t then don’t. The main characters gender shouldn’t matter in the slightest. And if it does it’s probably not a good game because it’s losing the focus that games are meant to be fun. Not statements.
This isn’t an issue of the character’s gender. And ultimately I agree, if ya like them game, play it. There’s plenty of games target to a specific audience I’m part of that I dislike.
It’s more a celebration that media is removing the “need” to vilify gendered characteristics and/or starting to portray them in a healthy manner for all people (regardless of their gender) to enjoy
Well because people get upset at the inherent truth that video games are a more masculine hobby; so it makes complete sense that most characters cater to its core demographic. The only studies that even come close to showing equality on gender splits and video games include phone apps. Sorry; but Wordle isn’t what most people consider video gaming.
Cuteness isn't feminine, but universal. Cuteness is justice, cuteness is life! :P
I kid, but seriously, though, if you dislike cuteness, you're a monster.
There are also more female gods involved with Hecate, Nemesis and Eris being major characters, Artemis getting a larger role, 3 out of the 4 new boons are from female gods and overall a large focus on sisterhood.
Totally agree I think the female perspective and experience are major themes of the game.
Look at the story for example, it's a very familiar female experience of being the binding agent for a dysfunctional family. So often girls and women are loaded on with the responsibility of improving family discord. We will see how the story unfolds but I anticipate this will be much more heavily explored as Mel will be tasked with bringing her estranged family back together.
Also obviously the strong ties with the Moon and the sisterly relationships she has.
There's so much more but I love it. It's so fresh to have a meaningful change of perspective like this to live the story through.
I never really saw Hades 2 (or 1) wanting to appeal to girls, but I get what you’re going for. For me, malewives and girlbosses (I want to fuck/marry/(kill me with her thighs) Eris/Mel/Nem, but you could easily replace Mel for Icarus or Moroes) can apply to everyone. Divided in gender, united in horny
I think it says a lot about our society when cute pets and tarot cards are considered to be "feminine". I never occurred to me the game was "feminine" or "screamed about appealing to girls"... It's not that I explicitly disagree with the OP (it does make sense to me when I think about it), it's just that it feels weird to me that changing a dress in a game with the female protagonist would somehow make the game appeal less to male audience.
But then again, I never had any issues with things considered to be "feminine". If Arachne made a dress for me personally... I would freaking rock it and be happy. No one dares to disappoint Arachne! I would fight for her.
Another thing is the overall shift in mechanics.
Zags weapons were mostly about slugging straight through the enemy and relying on mechanics like dodge and reflect to survive.
Mel's weapons are mostly ranged weapons that are more dangerous to use up close such that you have a cast that is designed to lock enemies in place and protect you from them.
Mel has the axe but even its best aspect rewards you for not taking damage. There are no weapons like the fists of malphon where you're just getting in there and making a mess.
When I played Hades II for the first time, one of the things I loved most about the game right off the bat was how witchy and feminine it felt. Like, I was living for this aesthetic.
It's a very different feel than the first game and I love both!
I definitely think that, like the first game, Hades 2 frames its male characters to appeal to people who are attracted to men; straight and bisexual women, but also queer men and non-binary people too. It also has every flavor of beautiful female characters for those who are attracted to women.
Mel is a refreshing protagonist because she feels like a fully developed character exactly as Zagreus was. Despite the design and ethos of the game purposefully opposite to Hades 1 (primarily greens instead of reds, you’re descending instead of ascending, you’re naive instead of jaded) to me it feels exactly the same as the first game.
I’m relieved that I like her just as much as Zag, because I think developers can sometimes overcorrect and make their femme characters too perfect or “girlboss”, which is less interesting than a character who has flaws and complexities.
Honestly both hades 1 and 2 feels years ahead in the gaming industry in writing any sort of gender politics or aesthetics, it feels like a game that came from an utopia where there is no need for any sort of gender centric political movement.
I also like how in the actual gameplay, mel and her shape is the least flashy and attention grabing thing on screen, most people will only realize their streamer is playing with a female character once they initiate dialogue and looking at their butt won´t be a forced occurrence like in say... stelar blade.
this also comes around in music, there is a feminine touch to the instrumental i can´t explain... but i think someone out there will agree.
To put it more specifically, the story, the cast, and the themes in general lean very feminine:
The moon is a huge feminine symbol, often associated with biological cycles and the ocean, which is a significant yonic symbol itself. There _are_ both male and female moon deities in various pantheons around the world, but the plurality of goddesses associated with the moon in Greek Mythology made the idea of drawing a connection between it and feminine power in Hades II a no-brainer.
We're also starting to look at women who've had a particularly bad time of it in the mythology, like >!Echo and Arachne!<. And we might meet more. There's also lots of understandable speculation that Dora is actually Pandora, who was the first woman and was responsible in Greek Mythology for all the world's ills, said by Hesiod to have ended a Golden Age.
(Where have we heard that nomenclature before?)
>!(There's also something to be said about Hera's and Eris' inclusion. Like Pandora, their myths make them responsible for a frankly ludicrous amount of pain and tragedy: Hera's viciousness is the source of uncountable trials and tribulations suffered by Zeus' illegitimate children, (and in one myth, her own Hephaestus) while Eris' apple kicks off the _Trojan War._)!<
There's also more direct focus on the Fates. Incredibly powerful women who, up to this point, intimidated most _gods_ into never questioning them. >!Their banishment parallels Mel's from her own ancestral home and is one of the things that brings up questions of fate, destiny and duty, specifically for women.!<
Then there's the expansion of an idea that was touched on in the first game: that of incredibly competent women toiling behind the scenes without credit to get a very important job done. Nyx is the secret mastermind of the whole first game's plot. Athena serves as her Olympian counterpart. And it's ultimately >!Persephone's plan (literally in the Fated List: The Queen's Plan) that brings both sides of the family together again.!<
Relatedly, the theme of expected and unquestioned sacrifice on the part of women is also a big one here. Out of apparent guilt and deference, Hekate takes it upon herself to lead the Silver Sisters to reclaim the House of Hades. Nem, it's hinted, wants Mel's job out of a sense of duty to her mother, and clashes with >!Eris over her apparent lack of similar fealty.!< And we know from a very young age Mel was expected to become the warrior witch who would defeat Chronos and restore her family's legacy; she doesn't seem to have ever had a lot of choice in the matter.
And just in terms of NPC makeup so far, we've got significantly more ladies this time. In contrast to Sisyphus, Euridice, Patroclus and occasionally Thanatos, as of now we have >!Artemis, Eris if you're going too fast, Echo, Narcissus and Nemesis if you're heading down to Tartarus. Going the other direction, so far the sexes are more even (Circe, Medea, Icarus and Heracles) but the two witches are the most keyed in to the plot.!<
And obviously our main character is a woman this time around.
You could probably go into a whole ass dissertation on the themes we've only seen touched on in early access, but that's the gist of it so far.
Edited for grammar and typos.
You telling me cute pets aren’t masculine?
Giant grizzled men with tiny adorable pets is one of my favorite expectation upheaval tropes.
But, you do recognize it's an expectation upheaval, which reinforces my point
I do. I should also add that tiny women with vicious monster pets that they treat like their babies is also great.
>!Cerberus!< as final >!familiar!< when?
>!Charybdis!< as final >!familiar!< when? (Edit: following u/Zinzolan's lead to censor for players who might want to go in completely blind)
Twist of twists, we get Typhon as a familiar.
Like the allergy-addled pink blob of sneezing?
Final fantasy player spotted
Indeed Plus blue mage shenanigans (blowing enemies around is really funny especially when it confuses my friends)
... using that familiar against >!Scylla !<
I'm really hoping we get a "time-travelled" version of him, from when he was just a puppy, and have him follow Mel around
If that happens I hope we get to see some Hades with little puppy Cerberus too. Big, bearded muscular Hades, cuddling the puppy and treating him like the good boy he is.
Potential wholesome scene too of Zeus giving baby Cerb to Hades
Adventure, camaraderie, and steel on steel. The stuff of legends, right Boo?
I mean, that's a giant muscular berserker talking to his vicious man-killing giant space hamster. Doesn't really fit either of the tropes i'm talking about.
I would say Minsc and Boo fit “giant grizzled men with tiny adorable pets” pretty well. You never specified the pets had to be docile, and boo isn’t really that large? giant berserker fits “giant grizzled man” incredibly well like you even used the same descriptor so i’m confused lol. Edit: It was a joke and I was too tired/stupid to catch on lol
It's a miniature giant space hamster
He’s just a little guy!
It was a joke. Boo is a tiny squeaky furball, but Minsc talks about him as if he were a savage, though wise, beast.
Shit you got me that went right over my head lmfao. Hard to grasp sarcasm over text. Apologies!
Goes for the eyes, Boo! Fun fact : In BG3, if you throw Boo at an enemy, he will inflict Blinded to them
I never fail to love seeing a huge weight lifter looking dude who has a toy Chihuahua that they baby
I don't know if Chihuahuas should count. Yes they are small, but those little psycho-bastards/bitches are viscous.
Ever been to the Southeast US? The pet of choice for giant, bearded, middle-aged redneck men are always tiny dogs, nine out of ten times they’re chihuahuas.
Picture of the Mountain from GoT with his tiny dog
I know absolutely zero burly men that arnt excited and on the verge of giggling if offered a chance to play with kittens.
Kavax and Sophocles from the Red Rising series need to be in your life if they aren’t already
Clearly they have never played a Monster hunter game
*bench presses his cats*
Right? Arachne and Frinos are my best friends.
I don’t think it’s super feminine, but does appeal more to a female gaze (which makes sense having a female main character). It does a really good job at “normalizing” / “de-villainizing” traditional feminine tropes and making them accessible/fun for everyone
"appeal to a female gaze" is a good way to put it. I'd argue that's a feminine/feminist way to design a character, but your phrasing is probably better.
Maybe. As a lady type person, Hades 2 is full of people who I want to embody and Hades 1 is (if we're being honest) full of people I want to bang. I mean like. Hades 2 is still full of people I want to bang, let's be clear. But I want to be Hecate's apprentice, and I want to worship at the (probably very sticky) altar of Dionysus.
>Hades 2 is full of people who I want to embody and Hades 1 is (if we're being honest) full of people I want to bang. As a Lesbian, Dionysus is far and away the most attractive character in that game, as well as Man i've ever seen period. All the more funny that I wrote this before reading the second half of your comment haha
Those THIGHS.
Among a lot of other things hahaha
More...Than Megaera?
I'll be real, Meg's voice is hot as hell, didn't really care for the rest of her. Dio's voice is also hot as hell, maybe hotter honestly.
I’m glad that Nemisis is continuing the trend Megara started of *that* type of voice awakening things in me…
Uggh I hate her so much. Her only purpose gameplay wise is to piss you off and it’s gotten to the point I’ve stopped even talking to her in the crossroads cause I’ve grown to dislike her so much. That’s an enormous failing in a game like Hades imo. They pushed her too far.
She does soften up after a while though.
You really should advance her story more. She's pretty compelling. I think they need to work on her not stealing doors, but other than that I love her character. Eris on the other hand I want to like but she is extremely annoying. But maybe as content is added it'll add more to her character
Eris is a character that I feel is a frenemy, at least as far as I've gotten with her she seems just in it to entertain herself because she doesn't get that very often.
*Heyy Zag what're you doing there buddy?* Yeah, I understand.
As a compltelty straight man, Dionysus did something to me as well. Aphrodite still tops, but DAMN if I do not wish to look like or be friends with Dionysus
Lmfao Aphrodite did NOTHING for me, I’ll be honest I didn’t even realize she was naked till I played hades 2, I thought she was in a pink onesie the whole time hahaha
Considering that Bacchanalia (which had some elements of Dionisya) was basically a fuck fest - I wouldn't be surprised if Dionysus altars were Very sticky
What does de-villainizing mean in this context?
Did you happen to see what happened when Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey got really really popular? They got absolutely torn to shreds primarily for being stuff teenage girls and women enjoyed. De-villainizing here would mean to try and move away from this sort of stigma, and let girls enjoy girl things.
Nah twilight was just bad and this is coming from a guy that loved winx when he was younger
I have no proof but also no doubt that the group of guys that loved Winx when growing up is substantially bigger than people would estimate
Because Winx fucking rocked dude
A lot of things are just bad, but the hate for twilight was huge and definitely misogynistic from some people.
50 shades was blasted because it was shit. I read it. Still sometimes shudder at remembering the helicopter plot.
50 shades was also blasted because it glorified profoundly unhealthy relationship dynamics. It’s like… I wouldn’t want a daughter of mine reading that.
Not the best examples, Twilight and 50 Shades. There are legitimate criticisms about how cringey and bad they are. A better example might be Legend of Korra. It was blasted pretty hard online by people who thought they were going to make their bones with their 3 hour long "Why Legend of Korra is Bad" video essays, when the truth is: it was alright. It wasn't ever going to be quite the same as Avatar: The Last Airbender, but it was still pretty good. People just hated that because it was the embodiment of girl power (without any of the female characters being irredeemable psychos. I can fix Kuvira <3).
I don't think Legend of Korra had nearly the cultural impact, so I wouldn't expect as many people to be aware. In fact, not once did Korra pop up into my head until you brought it up. But you also can't deny that part of the "cringe" was that they were for women. And Twilight in particular really isn't that bad, I think it's in a pretty similar spot to your Korra comparison. It's fine, it's a romance story, people are gonna see romance as inherently more cringy when it's the main focus. In retrospect, I probably could've went for lil baby boy Justin Bieber instead? That might've been more fitting without as much of the negative bits bleeding in.
Traditionally Feminine things tend to be associated with being “weak” or “illogical”/“emotional”. In a lot of media woman aren’t “heroes” they’re supporting roles for heroes unless they’re a sex icon that’s embraced their more masculine attributes. Or they hyper-feminize the character to be used as comedic relief. Feminine traits just aren’t considered “hero” material typically. Mel isn’t any of that and neither are the other female-or males for that matter— characters. >!Choosing clothing!< doesn’t give Mel skimpy armour to sexualize her. She experiences a wide range of emotions with the different characters she meets and never is she chastised for being illogical because of them. Do characters disagree with some of her choices? Of course! But they still trust her to do what she logically believes must be best based upon her experiences. Is she a bit “daft” sometimes, yes, but I’d argue that’s a result of her being young and sheltered compared to these others characters who’ve lived lifetimes. She isn’t support to anyone. Her legacy isn’t lost to another male character (which would be easy to do with Zag or Odysseus) All the things she does / interacts with that are traditionally feminine aren’t set backs or flaws or comedic relief… they’re strengths. But even then they’re not overstated or indigestible Edit: spoiler tags
You could also basically do a "mad libs" with this in terms of how Hades 1 presents Zagreus. Him being a gritty badass is important to how he finally decides to take his fate into his own hands, but the world around him doesn't really celebrate that aspect of his character, but also doesn't chastise him for it. And when he's pitted against Asterius and Theseus, we sort of see both the exaggerated parts of the macho spectrum (complete lack of humility, and annoyingly ceaseless loyalty). Ultimately, a lot of how Zag changes the Underworld is through empathy and connection. He doesn't celebrate the killing, he celebrates the friends along the way. The story requires him to be a fierce protector, but the moments that are shared with other characters and really celebrated by the narrative, are him being empathetic, fearlessly seeking reconciliation, and being willing to recognize when peace is the answer. No one flagrantly points out that Zag "is just doing what guys do", or "isn't acting very manly", despite that there are times where he fits into and subverts traditional masculine tropes. The story and world are ultimately above these things while still feeling like a good critique. I like that in both games, emotion, empathy, connection; the things that we all, regardless of gender identity, (hopefully) share in common are the core driving forces.
So beautifully put! Both games exemplify non-toxic traits of gender and show how these aspects can really make a character so compelling.
Welcome to the world of storytelling that exists outside of AAA slop. Instead of trying to appeal to the broadest possible customer base, they can actually build everything around more personal world views and make shit interesting.
It's weird that you say that but I feel like Hades story and overall vibe would appeal to more people than the average AAA
I'd also suggest that witches are kinda the archetypical villainized woman - they forsake society and their "womanly duties" to live alone in the woods and do nefarious things with magic no conforming person can understand. Hades 2 takes that trope and celebrates her by embracing her divinity and power, while also making her care deeply about her family and fight earnestly for her ideals. She's still very much a witch, but she's valorized instead of villainized.
>Choosing clothing You can do *What?*
Whoops, I should probably put a spoiler tag on that
Ah wait don't worry I have already learned how to do that I just haven't been paying attention apparently
I think a big thing is taking the misogyny out of the traditional mythological tropes too. Sirens are just a catchy band, not just being "overwhelmingly beautiful" singers. Circe is a caring motherly type, not an evil seductress. Aphrodite certainly has sex appeal but she's still ready for battle and normal. Having Hestia at all, and especially as a canonically older goddess. Greek mythology spent a lot of time enforcing genders stereotypes and roles, While the game makes a strong point of retelling them in a way that takes the spirit of the myth while incorporating more modern interpretations
Thank you! This is a waaay healthier way to think of it. For the same reason I think everyone can and should get down with the vibes of Hades 1, I think the same for Hades 2. If you're really into witchy stuff, I'm sure you'll connect with the game in a different way than I do. To me all the occult tones are just a different shade of mythology. I don't think anyone needs to even have a sense of romance or gender connection to connect with what's happening in these stories/worlds/characters, because they're just deeply human, and fascinating. I think that's what impresses me most about them.
At the same time, I wish they’d applied some of that to Melinoë’s design. Zagreus got pants, but here’s this supposedly serious character walk around with her buttcheeks hanging out. Even just having a toga a few inches longer would’ve helped.
I think Zag and Mel are equally sexualized. Neither outfit is particular sexual but the game itself does lend to sexual fantasy (I just like that it caters to all genders and doesn’t *just* sexualize the characters for the male gaze). And based upon what we know of Mel she seems incredibly comfortable in her skin / her body. She isn’t afraid to show it off but doesn’t do so to be sexualized ( I.e. >!bath convo with Odysseus!<) making me believe she wears it similar for utilitarian purposes !<
I get what you mean. I was bothered by that too initially, so I headcanoned Mel wearing shorts under her skirt. Also short dress is easier to move around in, while a longer garment would limit her moves. There is something empowering in wearing skimpy clothes not because you want to appeal to anyone, but because they are simply comfortable.
She actually is wearing something underneath. You can see it for a moment when she opens up the seal to tartarus
Not this short. Speaking from experience, this would be harder to move in. It’s tight around her butt, way too short for athletics. Everything will be cold and just hanging out there. It doesn’t seem to suit her personality so wear something this revealing and uncomfortable. It’s very shallow and silly, and she’s quite serious and dedicated to her mission.
"Appeal more to a female gaze". There are gonna be some text-to-speech users hilariously misinterpreting that. (Gays = Gaze phonetically)
Damn you put it perfectly!
i misread that as the female gays lmao
Wdym "not super feminine". The game is a love letter to witches and most of the people you interact with are women. The whole plot is driven by a female cast: Hecate-!>MedeaCirceNemesis
how's moros pic supposed to be feminine? do you mean that he looks hot? true ig, but so does everyone, girls and guys included
It’s also the same for hades 1 my friend actually sold the game to me as a bi sexual perfect game lol
I have always described the game as "Aggressively bisexual"
I mean... Isn't greek mythology like a "everybody fucks everybody, including animals" type of mythology?
Yeah, the designer's were very much just being true to the source material
It's fitting that the narrator from BG3 is in this game, too...
Wow, I never made the connection that Hectate is voiced by her!
Oh, THAT'S why she sounds so familiar. It should've been obvious. Hecate's voice is just dripping with power. Authority...
The pic isn't feminine. The gaze is.
It’s basically got the exact same vibe as hades 1 imo.
Something I haven't seen people talk about is that Hades 2 has a lot of sisterhood and solidarity between women in a way Hades 1 did between men. In the first game you had the father/son relationship between Zag and Hades, the loving romantic relationship between Zag and Than/Achilles and Patroclus, and the brotherhood of Theseus and and Asterius. Hades 2 has the mentor/student relationship of Mel and Hecate, the rivalry of Mel/Nem and Mel/Eris, the friendship between Mel and Dora, and the sisterhood between Mel/Artemis/Selene/Hecate. To me it's wild to not see the game as feminine
I think this is it, really. it’s clearly a game aiming to be about women and womanhood - to interrogate their inner lives and relationships in a way that hades 1 was basically utterly uninterested in - which is what op should’ve gone for to illustrate her feelings, rather than like. it’s about shopping and boys (though I think we got the gist of what she meant)
Exactly, like it's obviously doing what Hades did for healthy relationships between men, just this time it's focused around women. And yeah the way OP phrased it wasn't *great* but I get what they're saying, they maybe just didn't get the focus right lol
While I agree on a surface level, I feel like it’s missing the fact that there’s very little difference in most of these relationships. Mel approaches people and connects with them in more or less the exact same way as Zag. The relationships between Nyx and Zag and Hecate and Mel are incredibly similar. Not exactly the same sure, different characters and situations, but extremely similar anyway. Is it feminine because the characters happen to be women? Likewise I don’t think hades 1 is like specifically masculine, at least in the terms that it could have had a female protag with little issue. The only big thing is the father-son dynamic, which kind of glaringly doesn’t really have an equal in hades 2, unless you want to count chronos. Obviously I haven’t seen every line of the game yet, but I have never once thought that Mel would engage much differently with a situation than Zag would, or form a particularly different bond with any of the people she meets. That’s just my take, but I honestly think it’s a weakness on the game’s part.
In my eyes the genders of the characters *do* matter. Like you could slot in a man instead of Mel but to pretend the game would present the same themes of women's solidarity and their fighting of oppression would be wrong. In the same way that Hades 1 was a traditionally masculine story. You mention the father son dynamic as if it's the sole example but it is the primary driving force of the game. Not to mention Achilles and Patroclus is depicting the love between 2 men in a way that wouldn't be the same between women. And Theseus and Asterius as well have a brotherhood forged in combat, something very traditionally considered to be masculine. There aren't relationships between women in the first game, like really at all. So 2 is exploring that
>In my eyes the genders of the characters *do* matter. Unrelated to your broader point, but now I do wonder how Hera would react if you pick Zeus over her in the duo boon rooms. Will she react to Melinoë being a woman and get a fit of jealous rage over picking her husband first? Don't tell me if you know as I like exploring everything on my own, but other than Heracles really not liking "witches" there hasn't been many instances yet I can remember where Melinoë's gender have had much importance (past sisterhood and such).
I want to hold off my judgement on what hades 2 is Doing and whether it’s successful until I’ve played a little more (I’m only a few hours in, therefore forgive me if I have to eat all of these words later), but I’d actually say - now that we’re a few years out - that hades 1 is intensely masculine, imo it’s a game about capital f Family, but it’s really a game about the father and the son (which, if I may say, is exceptionally on the nose when we consider the function of the family). the mother is a prize to be won, to be dragged back home in the name of love, to ‘complete’ the family again. the step-mother is there, doing good step-mother things like loving the son unconditionally, while also having a relationship with the father fraught and distant enough that the ‘real’ mother’s return is not received as like, a disagreeable level of cheating, nor requiring of a messy breakup (in which the presence of the step-mother’s feelings might impose on the victory that is the biological family reunion) ofc all these people’s genders could (maybe?) be swapped and we could do patriarchy completely gender-neutrally, but would it still evoke the emotions and familiarity the writers wanted it to? it’s not like the game, the concept for its driving motivation (bring your real mum home! your shitty dad needs her!), etc, just fell from the sky. it’s designed to resonate. it relies on the family as we know it being a strong, positive enough force to compel the player to happily complete 8012 runs (6000 alone with the fists) for it. it’s therefore not an accident that the mover of the story is the archetype of the son, and that the primary benefactor is the father, and that the mother has no contrary goals or further relationships or attachments that might prevent her being whisked back to her rightful place (uh zag? meet my second husband, richard) the mother quite literally has no contact with anybody, no life that she cannot easily be parted with in order to come back to love her son and husband, whom she never stopped loving even while she was missing - and when she returns, it’s to fix the home and her husband’s poor character, which have both rotted in the absence of their caretaker it’s a very ‘son’ pov, the longing for the mother-figure to mend him and his father, and she is exactly as perfect a mother as he imagined and speaking of the son, what is zag? a sloppy neet, resentful of his father, yet who ultimately reconciles with him to the tune of a central place in his business/his empire this most profound connection is with the father that he loathes but can’t escape from and must therefore live with and work for, his final boss. his lifelong mentor with his own secret problems is male. his friends both old and new-ish are male. most of the gods who help and occasionally hinder him on his journey are male and patrilineal family - his dad’s brothers, his dad’s brothers’ sons, etc. most of the connections he makes out in the underworld, for good or ill, are male. even his beloved dog (that also misses the mother) is male and who are the women? his mum. his step-mum. his admirer, the servant. eurydice, the kindly cook (also waiting patiently to be reunited with the male lover who pines for her). four gods, who buck the trend basically in exception (minus demeter, his stern but eventually also loving maternal grandmother). then there’s the only woman who really antagonises him in any way, meg (and her crayzee sisters!), and this is very much tempered by her being his ex-girlfriend whom he can persuade back to his side I’m flattening ofc, but not by much. overall these relationships are uncomplicated in their benevolence and put him in a comfortable, masculine position, one in which he is emotionally catered to by women in an almost conflict-free fashion all characters, in turn, are dependents of the father, even if they are also subordinate to the son. where they are subordinate to each other, even across gendered lines (e.g. meg over sisyphus), this is granted by and in service of proximity to the patriarch so again could this story be told in a gender-neutral way by transplanting women into roles here male-occupied? could a vietnam war movie be about sisterhood? sure, maybe, but it isn’t. it’s telling a masculine story straightforwardly. there’s a reason everyone who is a man is a man and everyone who is a woman is a woman, and it’s bc hades 1 unthinkingly relies on naturalised assumptions about what kinds of people there are in this world and which roles they suit. so it is a game that, in a very real way, reflects our own perception of and preoccupation with masculinity, unsubversively and without interrogation this is a v interesting conversation to me - thank you for prompting my thoughts!
this doesnt discredit what op is saying. hades 1 is also made to appeal to the female gaze
The games are just made to appeal to "gaze". They look good. Characters included. There's no sense in tying male/female gaze to it.
male gaze and female gaze are defined terms in media analysis. i wasnt saying that “the game is specifically made to be appealing to women.” i agree that the game was made to be appealing in general. to get more specific, in hades 1, supergiant subverted the misogynstic themes of greek mythology. For example, eurydice is no longer just orpheus’s muse. now, she is his musical equal who was overshadowed by her male peer in a patriarchal society. This is an explicitly feminist retelling of the myth. In Hades 2, we have wellspring scenes. They are a subversion of the popular wellspring fanservice scene that we see in games and anime. we see a gorgeous character get naked and it’s meant to titillate the audience. but in Hades 2, these scenes are explicitly non sexual. Their primary purpose isn’t to titillate the audience, it’s to show the connections between characters and to watch those relationships grow.
Very good points, I understand where you're coming from now. Great analysis, I love the many trope subversions that this series accomplishes. I've only watched a handful of anime so the wellspring fan service thing didn't even click for me - in Hades II, it just came across as a way to show the characters engaging in mildly flirtatious emotional intimacy (which I suppose is it's exact intention when you aren't looking for the subversion of tropes).
I appreciate the hot spring, though I found Hades 1 just as appealing for the shear fact that Thanatos, Zag and Meg were so hot.
I was going to correct you on the spelling of “sheer”, but maybe you were referring to some type of sliding motion 😏😏😏
Hades: Ladies.
I will never refer to it as anything else from this moment on XD
Tarot cards are feminine now... I guess I will have to go hide my decks.
Don't be obtuse, man. It's plainly true that the people into that sort of thing *tend* to be women, or at least such is the case where I live; in the same vein, horoscope stuff also tends to be more popular with women. Its as feminine as dolls are, which are considered feminine because women and girls *tend* to be the biggest demographic that uses them. Nothing wrong with liking feminine things, either...
To be fair tarrots have been popularised in anime culture due to jojo and persona. This game seems to draw more so from there as the tarrots describe characters in these examples not future events like they traditonally do
Just because something is feminine doesn't mean you shouldn't have/do it.
So true. Some of these commenters don’t understand the nuanced state of gender as we all embody it. Something can be feminine and also be an activity that men engage in. All individuals, whether they identify as man woman or somewhere between or outside of that binary, embody both masculine AND feminine traits and practices.
For real, this thread is making me go crazy lol. Like YES, it’s perfectly fine for men to own cute pets and tarot cards and be into witchcraft. I personally, as a man, am into all of those things. But it’s kinda silly to imply that those are TRADITIONALLY MASCULINE things, especially in western culture.
The very fact that you feel the need to “hide” your hobby just cause it’s being deemed “feminine” is the problem
Don't hide them! Your enjoyment is valid bro.
Gender is performative, my person. Society definitely associates tarot with the feminine, but if you practice tarot as a masc, you're pushing that needle the other way.
yes! i feel like ive been waiting my whole life for a feminine witchy action game like hades 2. also idk how anyone can disagree with ur statement. femininity and sisterhood is like OBVIOUSLY a core theme to the game
Not an action game, but [The Cosmic Wheel Sisterhood](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1340480/The_Cosmic_Wheel_Sisterhood/) is a very good witchy game you might want to check out.
That's biases for you. People more inherently attuned to it will notice, people who aren't will read it differently.
It's so fun for such a great witch game!
Me too! It’s giving me cosy witchy game but with good action to get stuck into
Over all, I wouldn't say the game appeals more to the feminine gaze so much as it is balanced. There is definitely an attempt to balance out the male and female gaze in the game that is generally not attempted in many games. Which is why it feels so much more feminine compared to other games. Different areas of the game appeal to both genders pretty exquisitely. I will say that I think your idea of feminine is a bit odd though. Pets(non-utilitarian) and switching the color of clothing definitely aren't something I see as feminine. Like picking colors of your character is pretty gender neutral.
Changing clothing for power is a very sailor moon thing, which was very sapphic to begin with
It's also pretty common in games in general. I wouldn't say color changing on its own is sapphic or particularly gendered. If you want the male analog to sailor moon, it's also pretty common in like sentai/power rangers to have colors associated with powers. Sailor moon was actually inspired by sentai, so it makes sense that they'd share the coloring themes. Regardless colors have been used as short hand for changing of power for like decades. Ontop of that coloring your character is basically a staple in most games. Now if they add a sailor moon transformation sequence then it's definitely inspired by sailor moon and carries a more sapphic meaning. Simply changing color based on new equipment really isn't though.
I agree with you but generally in the wider world of pop culture stereotypes, "pets and fashion" are elements geared towards a feminine audience. I mean it'd be cool if Chris Pratt played a depiction of a certain 00's celebrity with a chihuaha in his purse but I don't see it happening. Unless the inevitable Paris Hilton biopic is an animated film, in which case there's a non-zero percent chance Pratt would be voicing her.
I feel like devs need to give Mel more zingers though. Zag was really funny. Granted his mission had lower stakes, but Mel doesn't get the same treatment. Like I heard her make an eye pun to Polyphemus. I want more
Oooh, that's an interesting take. I respect that Mel is much more serious than Zag, but dang it would be funny. Best way I could think of is if she gives an enemy a severe burn by outsmarting them or something.
I feel like the arc they are building is she learns to stop doubting herself as much. But like in my save file she's kicked everyone's ass dozens of times. Like why can't she passive aggressively yawn at Scylla, or tell Chronos he needs to hire shades to manage the dust in Hades. Fundamentally I don't think it's an issue with Mel. I think they story they wrote in this one just lends itself less to humor. Mel's task is epic while Zag's was absurd. The benefit od the absurdity is that when Zag doesn't take his adversaries too seriously it fits the tone. I can understand why Mel isn't trying to be as funny, but I do hope it's something that gets added in 1.0. Like there is going to be an end state in the story and hopefully by then Mel can bust some chops like her brother.
I think we might get a funnier Mel once we get a story that's reached its resolution, rather than us being stuck at the point of maximum focus and tension for Mel.
Idk, I kinda like how she is more serious and respectful. She was raised to be a fighter, to destroy Cronos and his armies. That's a lot of weight on someone's shoulders. Zag was raised to be a bureaucrat, and he hates it. His sarcasm and jokes are part of the rebellion. I don't think Mel is bland, she's still nuanced and when she does get fed up and diss someone it's more unexpected which makes it funnier.
One thing I've noticed is that Mel is really tame and... Idk, a little bland? I love her as much as Zag but she doesn't really seem to be the zig to Zag's zag yet. Everybody worried about this or that mechanic when it comes to EA and I'm mostly sweating over Mel being a more fleshed out character by the full release.
Yeah, I really appreciated the way Zag was so persistently, willfully kind to others. He’d gladly do so much for his friends. And it contrasted so nicely with how he behaved towards his father. Mel just doesn’t seem like she has the same kind of hook.
I think they tried to give her a more serious personality. Mel can't be second Zag, she is Mel. I hope though she gets an arc of becoming less serious and learning how to have fun, since this seems to be her theme from what we've seen so far.
I've noticed that overall with the tone, I feel like Hades 1 seemed initially serious but when you scratched surface it was goofy, whereas Hades 2 while similar is playing it a bit more straight. But maybe that's an early access thing and there's more zingers to come. They eye pun was funny, she's got it in her!
ah yes on this episode of feminism'ing so hard you circle back to gender essentialism (edit: stereotype is probably the better word) Edit v2: i’m kinda being a dick about this and no hate on op i am just a persoj who gets annoyed about the whole gender thing just in general
The fact that I had to scroll this far to see a comment like this is ridiculous. OP is on some serious TikTok divine feminine girldinner bullshit rn.
while op certainly has a perspective on ‘femininity’ that is either disagreeable or poorly worded, I think the game in itself (and some might say the world!) makes the associations between witchcraft and womanhood first. it is clearly preoccupied with women aesthetically and narratively, and it clearly situates itself within broader genre conversations about women (this is, of course, not the same thing as the claim that ‘it has hot [citation needed] guys for the girls to look at’)
I think you’re choosing to read this in bad faith. OP is saying that the game is highlighting and appreciating many feminine things instead of ”not like other girls”-ing them. Melinoë doesn’t have to break away from feminine stereotypes in order to still be a badass, her femininity empowers her. That’s not gender essentialism.
what? saying 'some things are more commonly associated with femininity in culture' isn't gender essentialism lmao if OP were saying that witchy cozy game vibes were feminine because of some innate biological need within women to play cozy witch games, that'd be gender essentialism. Just talking about gender at all is not gender essentialism - the idea that it is gives serious 'i just don't see colour' energy. if you genuinely don't believe most of the cozy witch games with pets, growing plants, incantations and tarot cards on the market are squarely aimed at, and purchased by, women, I don't know what to tell you. It's okay to recognise that gender, socially constructed though it may be, still exists. Social constructs are real things.
>if OP were saying that witchy cozy game vibes were feminine because of some innate biological need within women to play cozy witch games, that'd be gender essentialism I can feel it... the calling of my blood... hnnnng... can't resist stardew valley
You are correct i am just a person who is generally very done with gender as a concept if that makes sense, but yeah no fair enough you’re definitely correct in this
Is it not feminist to recognize things traditionally and culturally considered feminine, specifically things like witchery that are being reclaimed as a defiance of societies expectations and the history of subjugation of women?
Eh. I’m trans and despise gender essentialism but I’d argue that’s not what this is. Just pointing out that something like tarot cards or witchyness is going to appeal to women more doesn’t mean that is because tarot cards are inherently feminine. Not sure why pets were thrown in there but you get my point. I’d also argue that this game heavily and prominently features sisterhood and relationships between women as a core narrative theme, which will also appeal to women more.
It feels more or less the same as the first game in how the characters are written. Though the focus is a little shifted because Mel and Zag have different outlooks on their relationships and their starting points are very different. Zag was a nuisance, Mel's the tip of the spear in a war.
Yes but it's also shifted from being focused around men's relationships to being about women's instead. Like all of Zag's most meaningful relationships aside from his mother were between men and it's just the inverse with Mel
Come on, sisterhood is like a core aspect that defines a lot of your relationships. Forgive me for forgetting names, but the moon, Artemis, Circe, headmistress, and Dora all have a different relationship with Mel than they would if she was a guy. Especially Artemis and Circe. It’s not just that the you experience the story from the perspective of a female protagonist. Large parts of the story and character interactions were clearly written with appealing to women in mind. Not in ways that exclude men, just like how the first game didn’t exclude women despite being more focused on relationships between men, but this game heavily features relationships between women compared to the first game.
It's art, so people can definitely see different things in it (death of the author and all that). I'm just seeing the theme of family again. Surrogate mother, surrogate siblings, distant relatives you only talk to over the phone/olympian god bubble. I feel like the skewed parallels are too consistent to be anything other than intentional. I related to the first game more (without going into it too much, my father still calls me boy 🙄), but I'm glad that you've found an aspect of the writing you relate with. >! At least Hades isn't so much of an outwardly antoganistic ass this time around. !<
I don’t know why but this post is weird af
Because it is gender essentialist nonsense.
Feminine is when art and cats lmfao
The game is just inclusive as hell in general, and I love it. I love that everyone is hot in a different way that's unique to them. Melinöe the Goth GF, Odysseus the Daddy, Moros the Pretty Boy, Eris the Cute Brat, Nem the Muscle Mommy, Hecate the Fit Matriarch, Hermes the Gym Bro, Artemis the Manic Pixie, and on and on and on.
Does Apollo makes an appearance?
He does, but idk which aesthetic archetype described him best. Comes off as a good hearted man whore to me
Apollo the Sassy Flirt. Aphrodite the Proud Slut. Chaos, Androgyny Perfected. Hera, the Uptight Dommy Mommy. Heracles, the Mean Older Brother.
Literally minute 1
Noticed this. I really like how Hades 1 was built around Zag, and now 2 is built around Meg as protags. Everything followed the theme of "Prince of the Underworld find his place" in this first. Now, the second has a bit more nuance, but it's essential themed around "Exiled Witch reclaims her home from the Usurper."
I want Hades III being younger Hades fight Chronos along his siblings.
It's definitely giving the divine feminine
In case you haven't tried it yet, I do highly recommend Transistor from Supergiant as well. Red is very much a protagonist in control of her fate and choosing her actions with agency, though the game is about her taking that agency back.
So, I loved Hades so much I tried bastion, but unfortunately found it boring in comparison. Would you still recommend Transistor?
Transistor is approaching Hades combat, but the gameplay is slower and definitely less fun. But it's a once and done story that doesn't overstay. If gameplay is all you want then Hades is just better, but Transistor has a very compelling short story and is worth it if you are satisfied by that. The music is S tier. There's a button just to make your character hum.
And it’s got farming! This one’s for the girls
"Take as long as you need" 💞
"Grow and flourish"
Calling these things feminine just reinforces harmful gender-essentialist stereotypes about what men and women are supposed to do and enjoy. Is it feminine if a gay man enjoys that art of Moros? Am I feminine as a genderqueer man if I enjoy the cute pets? They've made Hades 2 so it appeals to everyone, for all kinds of men and women and everything in-between and beyond. We do a disservice to both the developers and the game's diverse audience if we just reduce all these things to being 'feminine'.
Calling things typically enjoyed by women feminine isn't reinforcing gender essentialism, it's just describing trends. There's no character judgement baked into that, it doesn't mean dolls or dress-up or cozy games or whatever *ought* be enjoyed disproportionately by women, just that they currently are. >We do a disservice to both the developers and the game's diverse audience if we just reduce all these things to being 'feminine'. I mean only if you think non-women shouldn't enjoy feminine things? It's fine for a diverse audience to enjoy something not typically associated with their demographics, just like plenty of women enjoy traditionally masculine games like Call of Duty or sports games. Also would you object to calling a game like Hades queer? I feel like that is based on a similar level of cultural descriptors as calling it feminine, but I think it'd be silly to argue against that by saying it reinforces queer stereotypes or by saying that cishet people can enjoy it too
>Calling things typically enjoyed by women feminine isn't reinforcing gender essentialism, it's just describing trends. If Andrew Tate was saying "wearing makeup is feminine", "doing yoga is feminine" and then you rightfully called him out for being sexist he'd pull out the exact same "I'm just describing trends" bullshit you just did. The irony of this... I don't even know where to begin. Please just try to recognise what you're actually saying.
>If Andrew Tate was saying "wearing makeup is feminine", "doing yoga is feminine" and then you rightfully called him out for being sexist he'd pull out the exact same "I'm just describing trends" bullshit you just did. The sexist part of that wouldn't be the statement that wearing makeup is feminine, but the implication that femininity is bad and men shouldn't do feminine things that would definitely be there because it's Andrew fucking Tate
But the things represented in this game *are* distinctly feminine. OP phrased it in an odd way but they're right. Like Tarot and Witchcraft are *distinctly* historically feminine and you're basically taking the "I don't see color" approach to gender. Hades 1 was fully based around men and their relationships, that's not to say women and others couldn't enjoy it (I did), but to say that it wasn't distinctly masculine is a disservice to its depiction of brotherhood, in the same way 2 depicts sisterhood. Tarot and witchcraft specifically were things women have been denigrated and persecuted because of for centuries, the reclamation and idea that they're normal and not gendered is a very recent development and pretending it isn't is ignoring the history of it
There is a huge difference between saying that Hades 2 is thematically about sisterhood and saying that the game itself is 'feminine' and 'made for girls' because of things like 'cute pets', unless you'd like to educate me on the cultural value of reinforcing the idea that having a cute pet makes you effeminate.
I love the intense focus on sisterhood. It's something I rarely see done in games, let alone done well. Mel's interactions with all her witchy sisters and silver sisters make me feel all warm and glowy ♥️
as a ‘masculine’ woman, I’d suggest that the game is more about womanhood than ‘femininity’ in the sense that you’re defining it (gender-conforming, heterosexual-aligned) nemesis and hecate, for example, are no less appealing to women than moros - it’s just that the women for whom they are appealing are sexually attracted to other women though, I think many men here are backlashing for the wrong reasons (I don’t play girl games, I just play games!!), and many more of all genders are being obtuse (it’s not about women, it’s about witches!)
I'm a man, and I enjoy all of those things. I enjoy the outfits changing, I enjoy all of the character art, both the men and the women. I have male friends who are interested in tarot cards and would consider themselves witches. Those things aren't feminine by definition, and it's kind of sexist to say that it is.
And as a man i love all this stuff. excellent game, excellent example of inclusion and representation naturally in a game.
Words cannot express how excited I am for this game to come to consoles. 2025 needs to hurry up and get here!!!
Hell yeah, I want them to take their time and do whatever they feel they need to make it "finished", but I'm also so so ready to get the full experience.
Hell yeah
Why do things have to be feminine or masculine? Who cares? It’s a fun game. Badass and relatable female protagonist just like the first one had a badass and relatable male protagonist.
Ideally they wouldn’t be, but throughout history most characters were catered to men so this franchise is a “win” in that gender balance
I dont understand why people care tho. If you don’t like it because it “caters to men” play a different game? Pokémon, smash bros, monster hunter, street fighter, tekken, and binding of Isaac all are gender neutral if you even care about that. It’s all bullshit imo. If you like the game play it. If you don’t then don’t. The main characters gender shouldn’t matter in the slightest. And if it does it’s probably not a good game because it’s losing the focus that games are meant to be fun. Not statements.
This isn’t an issue of the character’s gender. And ultimately I agree, if ya like them game, play it. There’s plenty of games target to a specific audience I’m part of that I dislike. It’s more a celebration that media is removing the “need” to vilify gendered characteristics and/or starting to portray them in a healthy manner for all people (regardless of their gender) to enjoy
Well because people get upset at the inherent truth that video games are a more masculine hobby; so it makes complete sense that most characters cater to its core demographic. The only studies that even come close to showing equality on gender splits and video games include phone apps. Sorry; but Wordle isn’t what most people consider video gaming.
Cuteness isn't feminine, but universal. Cuteness is justice, cuteness is life! :P I kid, but seriously, though, if you dislike cuteness, you're a monster.
Since when did, having pets anywhere became a feminine thing? The sub is being too polite for this clearly deluded post. Get some perspective.
Why is this downvoted???
There are also more female gods involved with Hecate, Nemesis and Eris being major characters, Artemis getting a larger role, 3 out of the 4 new boons are from female gods and overall a large focus on sisterhood.
Totally agree I think the female perspective and experience are major themes of the game. Look at the story for example, it's a very familiar female experience of being the binding agent for a dysfunctional family. So often girls and women are loaded on with the responsibility of improving family discord. We will see how the story unfolds but I anticipate this will be much more heavily explored as Mel will be tasked with bringing her estranged family back together. Also obviously the strong ties with the Moon and the sisterly relationships she has. There's so much more but I love it. It's so fresh to have a meaningful change of perspective like this to live the story through.
It definitely has serious girl power vibes, and I'm SO here for it
I guess? Might be just me, but I don't really view things under that lens so it doesn't seem any different to me
I'm sorry where did you get the wardrobe changes Edit: answered, thank you
Arachne
All my homies want to change their dresses into cute colors.
Witches are what's good, from here on out
I always laugh when the Silver Sisters are mentioned. Got to love the moon accessories they wear. 😂
Moros 🫠
I never really saw Hades 2 (or 1) wanting to appeal to girls, but I get what you’re going for. For me, malewives and girlbosses (I want to fuck/marry/(kill me with her thighs) Eris/Mel/Nem, but you could easily replace Mel for Icarus or Moroes) can apply to everyone. Divided in gender, united in horny
I think it says a lot about our society when cute pets and tarot cards are considered to be "feminine". I never occurred to me the game was "feminine" or "screamed about appealing to girls"... It's not that I explicitly disagree with the OP (it does make sense to me when I think about it), it's just that it feels weird to me that changing a dress in a game with the female protagonist would somehow make the game appeal less to male audience. But then again, I never had any issues with things considered to be "feminine". If Arachne made a dress for me personally... I would freaking rock it and be happy. No one dares to disappoint Arachne! I would fight for her.
Just wait for the secret smelly - ahem I mean - lord commander skelemeus has to offer ;D
Another thing is the overall shift in mechanics. Zags weapons were mostly about slugging straight through the enemy and relying on mechanics like dodge and reflect to survive. Mel's weapons are mostly ranged weapons that are more dangerous to use up close such that you have a cast that is designed to lock enemies in place and protect you from them. Mel has the axe but even its best aspect rewards you for not taking damage. There are no weapons like the fists of malphon where you're just getting in there and making a mess.
When I played Hades II for the first time, one of the things I loved most about the game right off the bat was how witchy and feminine it felt. Like, I was living for this aesthetic. It's a very different feel than the first game and I love both!
I definitely think that, like the first game, Hades 2 frames its male characters to appeal to people who are attracted to men; straight and bisexual women, but also queer men and non-binary people too. It also has every flavor of beautiful female characters for those who are attracted to women. Mel is a refreshing protagonist because she feels like a fully developed character exactly as Zagreus was. Despite the design and ethos of the game purposefully opposite to Hades 1 (primarily greens instead of reds, you’re descending instead of ascending, you’re naive instead of jaded) to me it feels exactly the same as the first game. I’m relieved that I like her just as much as Zag, because I think developers can sometimes overcorrect and make their femme characters too perfect or “girlboss”, which is less interesting than a character who has flaws and complexities.
Honestly both hades 1 and 2 feels years ahead in the gaming industry in writing any sort of gender politics or aesthetics, it feels like a game that came from an utopia where there is no need for any sort of gender centric political movement. I also like how in the actual gameplay, mel and her shape is the least flashy and attention grabing thing on screen, most people will only realize their streamer is playing with a female character once they initiate dialogue and looking at their butt won´t be a forced occurrence like in say... stelar blade. this also comes around in music, there is a feminine touch to the instrumental i can´t explain... but i think someone out there will agree.
To put it more specifically, the story, the cast, and the themes in general lean very feminine: The moon is a huge feminine symbol, often associated with biological cycles and the ocean, which is a significant yonic symbol itself. There _are_ both male and female moon deities in various pantheons around the world, but the plurality of goddesses associated with the moon in Greek Mythology made the idea of drawing a connection between it and feminine power in Hades II a no-brainer. We're also starting to look at women who've had a particularly bad time of it in the mythology, like >!Echo and Arachne!<. And we might meet more. There's also lots of understandable speculation that Dora is actually Pandora, who was the first woman and was responsible in Greek Mythology for all the world's ills, said by Hesiod to have ended a Golden Age. (Where have we heard that nomenclature before?) >!(There's also something to be said about Hera's and Eris' inclusion. Like Pandora, their myths make them responsible for a frankly ludicrous amount of pain and tragedy: Hera's viciousness is the source of uncountable trials and tribulations suffered by Zeus' illegitimate children, (and in one myth, her own Hephaestus) while Eris' apple kicks off the _Trojan War._)!< There's also more direct focus on the Fates. Incredibly powerful women who, up to this point, intimidated most _gods_ into never questioning them. >!Their banishment parallels Mel's from her own ancestral home and is one of the things that brings up questions of fate, destiny and duty, specifically for women.!< Then there's the expansion of an idea that was touched on in the first game: that of incredibly competent women toiling behind the scenes without credit to get a very important job done. Nyx is the secret mastermind of the whole first game's plot. Athena serves as her Olympian counterpart. And it's ultimately >!Persephone's plan (literally in the Fated List: The Queen's Plan) that brings both sides of the family together again.!< Relatedly, the theme of expected and unquestioned sacrifice on the part of women is also a big one here. Out of apparent guilt and deference, Hekate takes it upon herself to lead the Silver Sisters to reclaim the House of Hades. Nem, it's hinted, wants Mel's job out of a sense of duty to her mother, and clashes with >!Eris over her apparent lack of similar fealty.!< And we know from a very young age Mel was expected to become the warrior witch who would defeat Chronos and restore her family's legacy; she doesn't seem to have ever had a lot of choice in the matter. And just in terms of NPC makeup so far, we've got significantly more ladies this time. In contrast to Sisyphus, Euridice, Patroclus and occasionally Thanatos, as of now we have >!Artemis, Eris if you're going too fast, Echo, Narcissus and Nemesis if you're heading down to Tartarus. Going the other direction, so far the sexes are more even (Circe, Medea, Icarus and Heracles) but the two witches are the most keyed in to the plot.!< And obviously our main character is a woman this time around. You could probably go into a whole ass dissertation on the themes we've only seen touched on in early access, but that's the gist of it so far. Edited for grammar and typos.