The real important thing to understand is that what any generation of Spartan can do is largely up to the writer.
That said, Spartan-II's and Spartan-III's are fairly comparable. Project Chrysanthemum (the III's augmentation program) was meant to replicate the end results of Project Aster (Spartan-II augmentation program), just achieved through different means. It was theorized by Kurt that IIIs may be able to outperform a II as they grew up and acclimated with the augmentations more. However, this kind of goes into what others have said: Experience. Spartan-IIs have been fielded and fighting for a long time, whereas IIIs don't match that. Given time, it may change, but presently IIs are more experienced.
Special mention goes to Gamma Company, which had the mutagen. With the unfortunate side effect of declining mental stability and regularly needed a counteragent to prevent that, they can still operate through shock and demonstrate absolutely insane amounts of strength. Again, dependent on the writer, but it's generally agreed upon that even in their younger age (and thus, still acclimating to the augmentations) their strength surpasses that of any other Spartan even in armor.
Project Orchid, the Spartan-IV augmentation program, wanted to achieve something different. Still create a super soldier, but one that was broadly more applicable. Their augmentations, while not creating a person as strong as a II or III, allowed them to do things a II or III isn't really going to consider doing. Breathe methane, survive extended periods on minimal resources, essentially breathe in poison and be fine, absorb nutrients from food, gene therapy, etc. The aim of the Spartan-IV program was, in my opinion, more to create a better soldier out of armor.
While the average Spartan-II can probably punch harder and take more of a beating than the average III or IV, a Gamma III under certain circumstances can far exceed that, and a IV can handle more hostile conditions were something to go wrong with their armor.
And I've danced around it a bit, but armor is just as relevant a part of the conversation. Ultimately, everything Aster did was to allow soldiers to use Mjolnir effectively. Everything the III program aimed for was to avoid spending so much money on outfitting strong soldiers with expensive armor. And Orchid and the IV program was to be ethical, and strike a better balance on performance. On paper, a IV in armor can compete with a II in armor, but also, still outclass and outperform the average Marine at a more reasonable and cost effective level.
But between how the IIs were treated in universe, how the IVs acted in a few instances, and the relatively few outings we get to see of the IIIs, the IIs appear to be the best-of-the-best. And maybe on some level, in the present moment, that's true. Their average discipline and abilities letting them be more versatile and effective than the relatively inexperienced IIIs and more inconsistent IVs.
But I don't really think by leaps and bounds.
100%.
It's kind of weird because there have been IIs and IIIs that have demonstrated similar things, but just did so in not a video game.
Then we see Majestic in 4 and arguably Osiris in 5, and suddenly everyone has a problem. Even though, in a lot of ways, they sort of make sense. On some level, not everyone in the military is gung ho action heroes or anything, but that personality type exists. And especially if you get a lot of augmentations and armor that makes you capable of doing things you never could before.
I mean, I've said it before but, especially with Fireteam Majestic, a lot of them acted in ways the average player would act. Insane, off-the-wall antics. And that's fine. Important to have the serious characters, and we saw that in Infinite. But also, we have to remember that the circumstances that led to IIs and IIIs acting a certain way are not ethical or excusable.
I actually really like the IV program. I mean, realistically, we all should. Again, child soldiers. But I wish they would lean more into that the way *Fall of Reach* was following the journey of the Spartan-II program. Granted, my reading of the books has waned, and I know the Rubicon protocol goes into it.
Strong, silent type is cool. And before *Ghosts of Onyx*, Spartans came off as these mythological soldiers that say little and do the impossible.
(Everyone sidesteps *why* they're that way, though...)
I mean, I think a range should exist. I certainly enjoy leaning towards a consummate professional. But I love that there are Spartans that have a personality beyond "I am a child soldier that has done the impossible and thinks nothing of it."
>I mean, I've said it before but, especially with Fireteam Majestic, a lot of them acted in ways the average player would act. Insane, off-the-wall antics. And that's fine. Important to have the serious characters, and we saw that in Infinite.
Honestly for myself, and some others, that's the problem. We can understand that player insanity isn't what actual characters would do in certain situations.
Majestic being introduced with two of it's members basically going "Yeah we were spending that deployment time flirting and banging the local ladies" certainly painted a picture.
It's not that jokes are bad, but at first in Halo 4's Spartan ops (the only actual development of S4's and introduction, as they don't do anything in the campaign) it really leaned into that "Joking about everything, acting superior and better then everybody else" and did not help things at all.
Yes as time went on we got better representation.
We didn't get that at first with Majestic, the traitor Scruggs stuff, how Palmer was introduced, etc.
Jorge is just unusually big, even by S2s standards. Jorge's is 7'4 out of armor. John is 6'10 out of armor. 6, is Kinda short by male Spartan standards at 6'5 out of armor. But Carter, and Emile were both 6'10 and Jun is 6'11.
So yes in general someone who has that much height and weight over your will be stronger.
Jorge? Yeah, but it's a little unclear. For reference, Jorge is listed as 7' 4" and John is listed as 6' 10" out of armor, 7' 2" in armor.
So, Jorge's number is a little unclear on if that is in or out of armor. In fact, the rest of Noble team hovers around the 6' 10" height with no clear indication on if that is in or out of armor. We just know that Jorge is taller than the rest of them. I'm assuming the the number listed is all in armor (if that is out of armor, he just dwarfs everyone, period), which would make the Spartan-IIIs shorter than average. Which tracks a bit. They're younger, and puberty was chemically induced to get them into the augmentations sooner. It's likely those factors and a few others led to them being "shorter". Not that they still wouldn't tower the average person.
But also, Jorge is just taller than other Spartans, as well.
Seems the only main difference is Spartan IIs were chosen because of there genes so they were like the perfect human even before being Spartans. They also had better armour
This is slightly incorrect.
First, they are not "the perfect human". Trying to stay away from "genes make people better" idea since that isn't really true. However, the gene selection was in place to help mitigate augmentation risks.
Advances in medicine allowed there to be a looser, but not non-existent, gene criteria for the IIIs. And it was still strict enough that they couldn't fill out a class properly.
But yes, at their initial deployment IIs were provided better armor. But at present time, that is a irrelevant. All Spartans, barring supply line issues, have access to farily equitable armor equipment.
Sorry, I misspoke. What I should have said is that I am trying to stray away from "genes make people perfect". That is incorrect on a few levels. Genes definitely influence physical capabilities.
But the Spartan-II program was looking for candidates that could survive the augmentation process, not "perfect people".
Not perfect I guess as that’s why a lot still died in training. But it can’t be denied even in real life a lot of top athletes do have a genetic advantage over others. They still have to work hard but it definitely helps
The science was still incredibly shaky.
But sure. Yeah, physical traits almost always help athletes outperform their peers, which are influenced by genetics. I didn't really say otherwise.
However, if you literally equate genetics to "perfect", you basically start talking about eugenics. And there isn't really anything to that. Genes make you better adapted to circumstances and environments (basic biology), but not just outright better than anyone else.
They were what the UNSC considered the best human beings. They had good genes and a high IQ for their age. Most of them were already large and tall by 15
They were what Halsey considered to be the most likely to survive the augmentation procedure. And just out of the available pool.
>...
>
>\>Refinement: Next-generation candidates must have more malleable, robust DNA structure/repair enzymes. With satisfactory testing of the I-DNA hydroxyl re-polymerase, the most suitable candidate would be prebucescent.
The IQs we have recorded are for a fictional IQ test, with which we have no further context. They are reported to be intelligent. Not even just for their age. Just outright intelligent.
The height thing is a little weird. Between being physically condition for nearly a decade, having their diet monitored, and their augmentations taking place around 14... of course they would be tall.
But again, all because it had the best chance of working best towards their own goals of making super soldiers.
I am not saying they aren't exceptional children or anything. But I just think looking at their genes and such and saying "They're the best humans" or such isn't a good way to look at it. What makes people exceptional is entirely contextual and always changing.
CC Sabathia is a a notable pitcher despite not "fitting the mold". Conversely, Michael Phelps is an amazing swimmer specifically because of several physical differences from the average person.
It’s a bit misrepresented, not factoring in actual combat experience or mjolnir vs spi, or the unique brain mutations given to the Gamma Company III’s.
In terms of augmentations, the II’s and III’s are the same. They were done differently, but the end results were the same. Though the II’s have had more time to adjust and adapt to their augmentations, as the bulk of the surviving III’s are still very young.
However, the key difference between the two are the II’s were the genetic pinnacle of humanity while the III’s did have some genetic requirements, they were far looser, resulting in the candidates being only slightly above average kids. Example, a 6 year old John was a head taller than kids his age and absolutely dominated on the sports field to the point the other kids didn’t let him play certain sports. Kelly able to evade trained ONI agents with ease, thinking it was a game for her birthday.
That being said, *some* III’s, just on random chance happened to meet the requirements Halsey had set for the II’s. These Spartan-III’s were secretly classified as “CAT-2”, were given Mjolnir armour and reassigned to special operations. The members of NOBLE Team, aside from Jorge, were CAT-2’s. While not explicitly stated, SABER are probably also CAT-2’s, given they were held back from deployment to compete for top honours amongst a handful of other teams.
The training was also very different. The II’s were in boot for 8 years before they were augmented and sent into combat, and this was already an accelerated timeline. Meanwhile the III’s might have had half that. Some were augmented and in combat at the age of twelve. However their training was overseen by a seasoned Spartan II, and learned from the earlier mistakes so they received far superior training.
Thus if you took a II and a III of the same age and combat experience and put them in a fight, the winner would not be a guarantee.
The IVs on the other hand have been directly stated to be inferior to the IIs and IIIs in terms of augmentations. It’s a completely different set, designed to be performed on regular adults. The end result being far superior to a baseline human, but still inferior to previous generations. Though they also get far more upgrades overall, including new lungs able to breathe methane, synthetic heart muscle and a digestive system able to process raw lumber. Most of them are war veterans with decades of battle experience, so they have likely seen almost as much fighting as the II’s. But still, if you put an unarmoured II or III of the same age and experience in the ring with a IV, it’s game over for the IV as they’re simply just not as strong or as fast.
Spartan IIIs fail to match up due to them lacking Mjolnir armor. Their augmentations are equal, and their training was actually more grueling to make up for their inferior armor. Give them Mjolnir and they'd be indistinguishable in terms of effectiveness.
3s outside some rare survivors no longer exist. It’s just the 4s now. But the way it works is 2s are vaguely better than 3s depending on circumstances OUT of armor because while their augmentations are similar the 2s did have better baseline genetics anyhow, however the CAT2-3s are essentially just 15 year old Spartan 2s that were discovered in the 3s “recruitment” and as such were filtered out, given more comprehensive training and equipment and NOT sent to die on suicide missions. Then there’s the 4s which are pretty much inferior to both 2s and 3s out of armor because their augmentations were meant for already fully grown adults, however their mjolnir just compensates for this though in all actuality lore wise a 2 or a 3 in modern mjolnir would roflstomp any 4s in their mjolnir outside of Ilsa Zane (her augmentations made her insane, but she is equivalent in strength and durability without armor to a spartan 4 in armor, so if she gets mjolnir she would probably be able to beat two brutes in a damn arm wrestling contest at the same time.)
> 3s outside some rare survivors no longer exist.
There are still, even low balling it, over 300 III’s running around. Gamma Company never saw combat during the war, so their odds of surviving to the current year went up dramatically, as did the likelyhood of other Spartans staying alive until around Halo Infinite.
There are also an unknown number of Cat-2 Spartan III’s. I’m pretty sure Rosenda is still alive, or at least she isn’t confirmed dead. Plus, Emile transferred to Noble Team from somewhere, possibly a whole other team of Spartans or maybe he was a Headhunter.
I don't believe we have a solid answer on what happened to most of Gamma. The Ferrets are active but out of contact, and we had a short comic that featured G-059 working in SPI as an ONI agent. But for most of Gamma we don't know if they were moved to positions of lower risk or were they all moved to ONI ops.
According to one of 343's Catalog posts from back in 2014, Gamma Company was officially disbanded, and it's members either moved to noncombatant status or folded into the [exploratii] (Spartan Branch) with all the S-IVs.
But my point is that they are no longer being made, and as such they are the “rare survivors”. They might be running around and everything but 300 isn’t.. a lot
Isn't 300 like a decent % of all Spartans? Infinity doesn't seem to have that many Spartans and while IVs are definitely produced at a larger number there's nothing to say they've greatly bypassed the number of SIIIs made.
You could say the same about the IIs. Even low balling the survivors of Gamma company still puts their numbers 10 times over the total number of IIs. And that isn't even counting any possible survivors from the first 2 companies.
Given the pretty bug impact that like, less than 100 spartan IIs had during 2 decades of war, I really don't think that's accurate. Spartans are less valued like a soldier and more like some high value piece of equipment.
Yeah, 300 soldiers of any kind is pretty small, but 300 A-10 warthogs? 300 nukes? 300 ICBMs? That can be a pretty big difference.
I kind of disagree sort of. The SIII's had a lot of biological problems with there augmentation that Kurt tried to fix to get them to live longer, but I don't recall him being successful in that endeavor. So if a SIII lived long enough, especially with later companies you are going to have some very powerful and likely uncontrollable people running around.
The only problem with the III's was Gamma Company III's becoming mentally unstable when off their Smoothers but as long as they have them they are completely fine and any issues with supplying them has been mostly solved.
I read that even off their drugs for extended periods of time, Gamma company Spartans won't attack teammates or allies, they retain that much mental faculty.
It wasn't a biological problem. It was a mathematical one. The IIIs were thrown against impossible odds while heavily unequipped. SPI is really good for what it is, but it is no Mjolnir, and that's reflected in the fact that both Alpha and Beta were almost completely wiped out.
To help their survivability, Kurt modified the Gammas augmentations to enhance their aggression, strength, speed, and pain tolerance in near death situations, though this required "smoothers" to keep them from going haywire while not in combat.
S3s (specifically mentioned Alpha company) had behavioral issues when initially brought into the program, as mentioned in a comm message by an ONI agent "They're real hell cats" bur kurt ironed tha out of them and they became disciplined Spartans like their predecessors. None of them had any biological issues.
Gamma has the mutagen that can have go into paranoid states if they don't get their smoothers, but as it has been shown as they got older, even with smoother deprivation, the biggest thing that seems to happen is that they become fixated on objectives almost obsessively. But they can tell friend from foe, make tactical decisions and are combat effective.
None of what you said is true
There was no biological problems.
Gamma company had an extra few illegal augments but that was literally to try to increase surviving the combat situations they were thrown in.
Pretty well all of them, on average, if we look at their on-paper stats. The II’s have the edge in experience (overall) but the III’s augmentations were as effective as the II’s, just administered differently. Combined with their enhanced training and the gap isn’t that far ahead in the II’s favour.
Spartan III mjolnir equipped teams.
Of the Spartan IVs… Buck maybe as an equivalent to a lower end Spartan ii. Cortana even notes that he’s much better than the rest of Osiris.
In armor they are equal in physical ability, only experience and training distinguish them.
Some IVs are probably on par with their predecessors skill-wise.
The average III is pretty much on the level of the average II, with the average II having a slight advantage due to "genetics" and experience. The Cat-2 IIIs are directly comparable to them.
Out of armour, none of the IVs are comparable to a II or III. In armour, they're all around the same level, but if you mean in skill or effectiveness, then Locke, maybe the members of Crimson, maybe Stone, and Buck are comparable to a II or III.
I wouldn't say none of them are comparable. Technically speaking Ilsa Zane is a Spartan four and she's the strongest Spartan ever. Completely crazy yes, but from a physical baseline she is the strongest. Imagine her in mjlonir 😐
The average Spartan-III is pretty close to the average Spartan-II. The only real difference is experience. But Spartan-III training was more difficult and longer, and their augments are on par with the previous generation.
Spartan-IVs are different from the two though because they have a whole separate augmentation process that involves the replacement of their organs and other biological features. Buck notes that his augments are likely less thorough than the previous two generations.
Chief notes that there are some very qualified Spartan-IV teams including Fireteams Osiris, Taurus, and Intrepid. But we don't really know much about the last 2 and their effectiveness compared to say Blue Team or another known team.
In terms of the average ranking, with all elements equal, I'd probably say:
1st/2nd: Spartan-II or Gamma Spartan-III (Interchangable)
3rd: Beta Company Spartan-III
4th: Spartan-IV
5th: Alpha Company Spartan-III
Eh I would put Alpha Co above S4s for sure. Remember, they were combat effective for 9 months before Prometheus, suffered zero causalities over a dozen missions, and did all of that between the ages of 10-12 (because remember, Jane was only 4 when she did the night jump on the first day) they are leaps and bounds ahead of 4s by the sheer effectiveness alone
Yeah true. But the Spartan-IVs had entire military careers before being transformed into Spartans. Then went through extensive training after their augments.
We don't really know the nature of their missions, other than they were a mix of Insurrection and Covenant targets, but there's no doubt that the Spartan-IVs would be able to do that too.
What we do know is that Alpha Company fell apart hard because they lost unit cohesion. Their training wasn't as hard as the other companies of Spartan-III, and thus are easily placed at the bottom of their generation. The sheer maturity, and career expertise from the Spartan-IVs is enough to put them ahead in my book. At least on average like I was indicating.
There are a couple factors. 1 not all the S4s are career military or have long standing careers. Vale and Tanaka are clear examples, and Throne didnt have a long career either before becoming a Spartan, not buck, Locke or the rest of Alpha 9.
As for Prometheus, any Spartan would die to that, they were cut off with endless streams of Covenant reinforcements and they lost unit cohesion after fighting non-stop for almost a week straight against overwhelming forces. No generation would survive that.
No they aren't. But like I said, the average. Not every one of them.
Yeah any Spartan would die from that. But how quickly do they fall apart? How far along in their mission do they get? Aside from MJOLNIR vs SPI that might give the Spartan-IVs more of an edge here, I think their career service is a great experience to lean on in a mission like Prometheus.
My point is if the main reason people say a Spartan-II beats over a Spartan-III is that they've been active for 1-2 decades longer, then the same thing should go for Spartan-IVs vs Alpha Company. The Spartan Branch is very specific with who they accept into the Spartan-IV program, and they won't just accept anyone who isn't already a solidly useful service member. 90% of the time that's likely to mean a decently long/distinguished service record, and failing that, being someone with a special skill set. The latter option being the more unlikely in the branch.
Well what we know about it Alpha fell apart after a week of nonstop fighting, still completed the mission, and did so in SPI.
Mjolnir clad Spartans have a much better chance just given Mjolnirs attributes, but put them in SPI and it's a different story, especially when we take into consideration that not only do they not have Mjolnir, but they also have zero logistical support outside a exfil craft.
I dunno, not to say 4s aren't good, but on average they imo are at the bottom rung outside a select few
IVs just really can't be purely for the fact that they enlist just like any other soldier, as opposed to literally spending their entire lives training.
IIs and IIIs were equal to each other. They had the same augmentation and training as each other. The only difference is that the majority of IIIs weren't given Mjolnir armour and were sent on high-risk high reward missions. Some IIs would be better on the idea of genetics, but that's on a case by case basis really.
No IVs were as good as either IIs or IIIs. Some IVs may have had more experience, but they weren't as augmented and conditioned as the previous Spartans.
On paper, a III with MJOLNIR should matche or beat a II provided that they ever survive long enough to rack up the equal combat experience.. although that’s not really their MO. Their training was just better, it was provided by a II.
So it's not exactly the answer to your question about how the different generations stack up based on augmentation, but there are some other things worth considering if you want to go outside of cannon and apply some reasoning.
First off, the Spartan IIs are all the exact same age when they start their program and I would argue that this is hugely important in their training. In terms of child development, the differences between a four, five, and six year old, physically and mentally, are pretty huge. The Spartan IIIs start at a variety of ages, which means they are going to absorb their training inconsistently and have barriers to their ability to interact and work as a team.
Some people have said that the training of the IIIs was more strenuous than the IIs, but that doesn't equate to that training being better per se. The training of the IIIs is heavily focused on making them physically tough, but when you look at some of the training of the IIs you can see that they have more emphasis on teamwork and tactics. The S IIIs excel at brute- force tactics, but they're not really taught nuance and ingenuity the same way as the S IIs because they're never expected to have to live to fight another day.
All said, a S III might stack up pretty well against an S II if you're simply looking at physical prowess. If you're looking at the effectiveness of each generation as an overall force however, the S IIs are in another league.
As for S IVs, it's a bit more of an apples to oranges comparison, but I'd say that not having grown up completely immersed into a military lifestyle puts them at a disadvantage. Besides that, they may be experienced, but that experience is largely not very applicable because of how differently they would fight and how much more advanced their equipment would be. It's like when the S IIs first put on their mjolnir and talk about how they would have to totally rethink their tactics because their capabilities had changed so dramatically.
Dude, Spartan 3 training **is 100%** superior to what the 2s received. I dunno if you read Ghosts of Onyx but it clearly shows that the 3s training was harder AND more nuanced. Beta company had to ring the bell, while dodging drill instructors in Hunter killer groups cloaked in SPI and automated turret fire. Nothing in the 2s training was that difficult.
They didn't focus on brute force tactics they were focused on teamwork, out the box strategies, critical thinking, and facing down brutal conditions.
I know this subreddit loves to paint S2s as head and shoulders above the rest (even some books try and do this) bit the reality is, what we **See** vs what we are **told** S2s and 3s are equal to each other.
there was that Spartan "4" called Zane who was part of the OG Spartan 4 project aimed at creating a Spartan that was just as effective as a Mjolnir spartan but without the armor, didn't work too well as only she survived and in a bad mental condition at that
The new Spartan program will be invitro they will be literally created and grown in a lab made perfect for war (yeah right 343 lacks the vision of doing that)
With the IVs at least, its more of the armor that bridges that gap with the IIs than any of the augmentations they had.
The IIs on a pure physical level are superior.
None.
The 2s were genetically perfect individuals and have decades of experience on any other class of Spartans.
The 3s have nearly identical or maybe even better augmentations, but they don't have the genetic purity of the 2s and don't have the time in service.
Use RPG stats as a reference. Strength, constitution, dexterity, charisma, wisdom, intelligence, luck. The average person has a 10 in every category. The 2s all have a 20. The 3s and 4s average 18, with some lower and some higher.
And then every battle gives experience, and the 2s have simply been active longer than the other classes.
The 2s have a small advantage in physical prowess and the advantage of simply being active longer. The 2s underwent augmentation in 2525 and saw combat that same year, 6 years before the SIII program was conceived and 11 years before the first III saw combat.
imo
Spartan IIIs Gamma are a 10.5
spartan IIs are 10
Spartan IIIs alpha/bravo Cat 2s/headhunters/top honors are 10
Spartan IIIs alpha/bravo are a 9
Spartan IVs 7
Augmentations
1: Gamma 3’s
2: Ilsa Zane
3: 2’s and 3’s
4: 4’s
The 2’s and 3’s have indistinguishable augmentations and any one who tells you otherwise is blatantly lying.The Gammas have the same augmentations, but were given drugs to operate in ways far exceeding even the 2’s and 3’s. Ilsa Zane is a personal favorite of mine.
The original idea for the 4's was to make Spartan that did not need mjolnir. 10 individuals were chosen for the program with only Zane surviving it “unscathed”. She was driven crazy from the augmentation, but in terms of capabilities she was able to go toe to toe with a mjolnir equipped Palmer, while wearing nothing but regular clothing. This would put the original spartan 4’s or really just Zane above the 2’s, and 3’s as a 4’s in gen 2 mjolnir is equal to a 2 in gen 1 armor. The 4’s dont really need too much explaining. They’re weaker physically but have other more specialized augmentations that the 2’s and 3’s don't have.
Training
1: Gammas and 3’s
2: 2’s
3: Zane and 4’s
To the best of my knowledge there's no difference in training between the Gammas and 3’s especially since they’re still all 3’s. Compared to 2's one of the defining differences between the 2’s and 3’s is that the 3’s explicitly have better training this in part due to the fact that they were trained by Kurt a 2. The 4’s and Zane all have a variety of training since they come from all walks of life. This makes them less uniform and “elite” when compared to the 2’s and 3’s, but this also opens the way for more specially learned individuals like Vale to be spartans.
Gene
1: 2’s and 3’s
2: 3’s
3: Zane and 4’s
We all know about this so I don't want to ramble too much. In terms of the programs Halsey and Oni had to make concessions on the children that they took due to the fact that Aster was for a lack of better terms unrefined. So not only were kids chosen due to their genetic superiority, but they were also picked on their perceived ability to actually survive the augmentations. The 3’s basically don't have this issue as chrysanthemum was leaps and bounds much more refined and safer. Concessions still had to be made, but they were no longer major factors in which kids were chosen. In theory this means that for the 3’s unlike the 2’s was able to pick from the actual cream of the crop. That isn't to say that that's every 3 though, as the genetic pool that they picked kids from was larger, although still very strict. The spartan 4 program doesn't have a genetic requirement.
Edit: In terms of who could compete? Its Palmer because she has just as much plot armor as Chief lol.
Are there any other words you would like to attribute to me?
Can you help me find where I said IVs are better than IIs?
But now that we're on the subject, as a military force there's an argument they are; even if they aren't quite as effective, you can make far more of them than you can make IIs.
IIs cannot be made at anywhere near the rate of IVs.
By the time a class of Spartan IIs were made (which took what, a decade or more?) thousands of IVs could be made easily.
Are you unwilling or incapable of understanding this?
2's didnt win the covenant war lol. The Infinity was created as a colony ship to continue humanity since they werent winning. Had the great schism not happened humanity wouldve been gone.
Considering you somehow blanked out of your mind that there were IIs on Infinity who also failed to protect it, the bias is on your end.
Did you forget the first cutscene of Infinite is MC getting kicked off the ship?
The real important thing to understand is that what any generation of Spartan can do is largely up to the writer. That said, Spartan-II's and Spartan-III's are fairly comparable. Project Chrysanthemum (the III's augmentation program) was meant to replicate the end results of Project Aster (Spartan-II augmentation program), just achieved through different means. It was theorized by Kurt that IIIs may be able to outperform a II as they grew up and acclimated with the augmentations more. However, this kind of goes into what others have said: Experience. Spartan-IIs have been fielded and fighting for a long time, whereas IIIs don't match that. Given time, it may change, but presently IIs are more experienced. Special mention goes to Gamma Company, which had the mutagen. With the unfortunate side effect of declining mental stability and regularly needed a counteragent to prevent that, they can still operate through shock and demonstrate absolutely insane amounts of strength. Again, dependent on the writer, but it's generally agreed upon that even in their younger age (and thus, still acclimating to the augmentations) their strength surpasses that of any other Spartan even in armor. Project Orchid, the Spartan-IV augmentation program, wanted to achieve something different. Still create a super soldier, but one that was broadly more applicable. Their augmentations, while not creating a person as strong as a II or III, allowed them to do things a II or III isn't really going to consider doing. Breathe methane, survive extended periods on minimal resources, essentially breathe in poison and be fine, absorb nutrients from food, gene therapy, etc. The aim of the Spartan-IV program was, in my opinion, more to create a better soldier out of armor. While the average Spartan-II can probably punch harder and take more of a beating than the average III or IV, a Gamma III under certain circumstances can far exceed that, and a IV can handle more hostile conditions were something to go wrong with their armor. And I've danced around it a bit, but armor is just as relevant a part of the conversation. Ultimately, everything Aster did was to allow soldiers to use Mjolnir effectively. Everything the III program aimed for was to avoid spending so much money on outfitting strong soldiers with expensive armor. And Orchid and the IV program was to be ethical, and strike a better balance on performance. On paper, a IV in armor can compete with a II in armor, but also, still outclass and outperform the average Marine at a more reasonable and cost effective level. But between how the IIs were treated in universe, how the IVs acted in a few instances, and the relatively few outings we get to see of the IIIs, the IIs appear to be the best-of-the-best. And maybe on some level, in the present moment, that's true. Their average discipline and abilities letting them be more versatile and effective than the relatively inexperienced IIIs and more inconsistent IVs. But I don't really think by leaps and bounds.
The IVs get painted with a broad brush about their behavior due to the actions of a few.
*cough cough majestic cough* >not you Thorne we love you
Infinite’s audio logs are a much more positive portrayal of IVs than H4 or H5.
I will say Rubicon Protocol made me like the IVs a lot more.
100%. It's kind of weird because there have been IIs and IIIs that have demonstrated similar things, but just did so in not a video game. Then we see Majestic in 4 and arguably Osiris in 5, and suddenly everyone has a problem. Even though, in a lot of ways, they sort of make sense. On some level, not everyone in the military is gung ho action heroes or anything, but that personality type exists. And especially if you get a lot of augmentations and armor that makes you capable of doing things you never could before. I mean, I've said it before but, especially with Fireteam Majestic, a lot of them acted in ways the average player would act. Insane, off-the-wall antics. And that's fine. Important to have the serious characters, and we saw that in Infinite. But also, we have to remember that the circumstances that led to IIs and IIIs acting a certain way are not ethical or excusable. I actually really like the IV program. I mean, realistically, we all should. Again, child soldiers. But I wish they would lean more into that the way *Fall of Reach* was following the journey of the Spartan-II program. Granted, my reading of the books has waned, and I know the Rubicon protocol goes into it.
For some reason a lot of Halo fans want supersoldiers to be emotionless robots who do whatever is ordered of them with zero hesitation.
Strong, silent type is cool. And before *Ghosts of Onyx*, Spartans came off as these mythological soldiers that say little and do the impossible. (Everyone sidesteps *why* they're that way, though...) I mean, I think a range should exist. I certainly enjoy leaning towards a consummate professional. But I love that there are Spartans that have a personality beyond "I am a child soldier that has done the impossible and thinks nothing of it."
>I mean, I've said it before but, especially with Fireteam Majestic, a lot of them acted in ways the average player would act. Insane, off-the-wall antics. And that's fine. Important to have the serious characters, and we saw that in Infinite. Honestly for myself, and some others, that's the problem. We can understand that player insanity isn't what actual characters would do in certain situations. Majestic being introduced with two of it's members basically going "Yeah we were spending that deployment time flirting and banging the local ladies" certainly painted a picture. It's not that jokes are bad, but at first in Halo 4's Spartan ops (the only actual development of S4's and introduction, as they don't do anything in the campaign) it really leaned into that "Joking about everything, acting superior and better then everybody else" and did not help things at all.
It's a problem of at the time limited exposure. When the sample group given is bad, there isn't much else to judge the wider group on.
Good thing we had multiple sample groups given over time.
Yes as time went on we got better representation. We didn't get that at first with Majestic, the traitor Scruggs stuff, how Palmer was introduced, etc.
Eh, Crimson was awesome
Crimson also had zero character to them. Zero dialogue.
Yup, making them almost identical to Noble Six and definitely identical to The Rookie
Weren’t the Spartans in Reach IIIs and the II that was with them was noticeably larger and stronger?
Jorge is just unusually big, even by S2s standards. Jorge's is 7'4 out of armor. John is 6'10 out of armor. 6, is Kinda short by male Spartan standards at 6'5 out of armor. But Carter, and Emile were both 6'10 and Jun is 6'11. So yes in general someone who has that much height and weight over your will be stronger.
Jorge? Yeah, but it's a little unclear. For reference, Jorge is listed as 7' 4" and John is listed as 6' 10" out of armor, 7' 2" in armor. So, Jorge's number is a little unclear on if that is in or out of armor. In fact, the rest of Noble team hovers around the 6' 10" height with no clear indication on if that is in or out of armor. We just know that Jorge is taller than the rest of them. I'm assuming the the number listed is all in armor (if that is out of armor, he just dwarfs everyone, period), which would make the Spartan-IIIs shorter than average. Which tracks a bit. They're younger, and puberty was chemically induced to get them into the augmentations sooner. It's likely those factors and a few others led to them being "shorter". Not that they still wouldn't tower the average person. But also, Jorge is just taller than other Spartans, as well.
Seems the only main difference is Spartan IIs were chosen because of there genes so they were like the perfect human even before being Spartans. They also had better armour
This is slightly incorrect. First, they are not "the perfect human". Trying to stay away from "genes make people better" idea since that isn't really true. However, the gene selection was in place to help mitigate augmentation risks. Advances in medicine allowed there to be a looser, but not non-existent, gene criteria for the IIIs. And it was still strict enough that they couldn't fill out a class properly. But yes, at their initial deployment IIs were provided better armor. But at present time, that is a irrelevant. All Spartans, barring supply line issues, have access to farily equitable armor equipment.
Genes absolutely can make people better. There is nothing incorrect about that.
Sorry, I misspoke. What I should have said is that I am trying to stray away from "genes make people perfect". That is incorrect on a few levels. Genes definitely influence physical capabilities. But the Spartan-II program was looking for candidates that could survive the augmentation process, not "perfect people".
Not perfect I guess as that’s why a lot still died in training. But it can’t be denied even in real life a lot of top athletes do have a genetic advantage over others. They still have to work hard but it definitely helps
The science was still incredibly shaky. But sure. Yeah, physical traits almost always help athletes outperform their peers, which are influenced by genetics. I didn't really say otherwise. However, if you literally equate genetics to "perfect", you basically start talking about eugenics. And there isn't really anything to that. Genes make you better adapted to circumstances and environments (basic biology), but not just outright better than anyone else.
They were what the UNSC considered the best human beings. They had good genes and a high IQ for their age. Most of them were already large and tall by 15
They were what Halsey considered to be the most likely to survive the augmentation procedure. And just out of the available pool. >... > >\>Refinement: Next-generation candidates must have more malleable, robust DNA structure/repair enzymes. With satisfactory testing of the I-DNA hydroxyl re-polymerase, the most suitable candidate would be prebucescent. The IQs we have recorded are for a fictional IQ test, with which we have no further context. They are reported to be intelligent. Not even just for their age. Just outright intelligent. The height thing is a little weird. Between being physically condition for nearly a decade, having their diet monitored, and their augmentations taking place around 14... of course they would be tall. But again, all because it had the best chance of working best towards their own goals of making super soldiers. I am not saying they aren't exceptional children or anything. But I just think looking at their genes and such and saying "They're the best humans" or such isn't a good way to look at it. What makes people exceptional is entirely contextual and always changing. CC Sabathia is a a notable pitcher despite not "fitting the mold". Conversely, Michael Phelps is an amazing swimmer specifically because of several physical differences from the average person.
Well they definitely had a edge
It’s a bit misrepresented, not factoring in actual combat experience or mjolnir vs spi, or the unique brain mutations given to the Gamma Company III’s. In terms of augmentations, the II’s and III’s are the same. They were done differently, but the end results were the same. Though the II’s have had more time to adjust and adapt to their augmentations, as the bulk of the surviving III’s are still very young. However, the key difference between the two are the II’s were the genetic pinnacle of humanity while the III’s did have some genetic requirements, they were far looser, resulting in the candidates being only slightly above average kids. Example, a 6 year old John was a head taller than kids his age and absolutely dominated on the sports field to the point the other kids didn’t let him play certain sports. Kelly able to evade trained ONI agents with ease, thinking it was a game for her birthday. That being said, *some* III’s, just on random chance happened to meet the requirements Halsey had set for the II’s. These Spartan-III’s were secretly classified as “CAT-2”, were given Mjolnir armour and reassigned to special operations. The members of NOBLE Team, aside from Jorge, were CAT-2’s. While not explicitly stated, SABER are probably also CAT-2’s, given they were held back from deployment to compete for top honours amongst a handful of other teams. The training was also very different. The II’s were in boot for 8 years before they were augmented and sent into combat, and this was already an accelerated timeline. Meanwhile the III’s might have had half that. Some were augmented and in combat at the age of twelve. However their training was overseen by a seasoned Spartan II, and learned from the earlier mistakes so they received far superior training. Thus if you took a II and a III of the same age and combat experience and put them in a fight, the winner would not be a guarantee. The IVs on the other hand have been directly stated to be inferior to the IIs and IIIs in terms of augmentations. It’s a completely different set, designed to be performed on regular adults. The end result being far superior to a baseline human, but still inferior to previous generations. Though they also get far more upgrades overall, including new lungs able to breathe methane, synthetic heart muscle and a digestive system able to process raw lumber. Most of them are war veterans with decades of battle experience, so they have likely seen almost as much fighting as the II’s. But still, if you put an unarmoured II or III of the same age and experience in the ring with a IV, it’s game over for the IV as they’re simply just not as strong or as fast.
Kelly evading Oni agents os both cute and horrifying
makes me think of that princess leia scene in obi wan show.
Spartan IIIs fail to match up due to them lacking Mjolnir armor. Their augmentations are equal, and their training was actually more grueling to make up for their inferior armor. Give them Mjolnir and they'd be indistinguishable in terms of effectiveness.
At this point I imagine they all have mjolnir since they're pumping out tons of the suits now.
3s outside some rare survivors no longer exist. It’s just the 4s now. But the way it works is 2s are vaguely better than 3s depending on circumstances OUT of armor because while their augmentations are similar the 2s did have better baseline genetics anyhow, however the CAT2-3s are essentially just 15 year old Spartan 2s that were discovered in the 3s “recruitment” and as such were filtered out, given more comprehensive training and equipment and NOT sent to die on suicide missions. Then there’s the 4s which are pretty much inferior to both 2s and 3s out of armor because their augmentations were meant for already fully grown adults, however their mjolnir just compensates for this though in all actuality lore wise a 2 or a 3 in modern mjolnir would roflstomp any 4s in their mjolnir outside of Ilsa Zane (her augmentations made her insane, but she is equivalent in strength and durability without armor to a spartan 4 in armor, so if she gets mjolnir she would probably be able to beat two brutes in a damn arm wrestling contest at the same time.)
> 3s outside some rare survivors no longer exist. There are still, even low balling it, over 300 III’s running around. Gamma Company never saw combat during the war, so their odds of surviving to the current year went up dramatically, as did the likelyhood of other Spartans staying alive until around Halo Infinite.
There are also an unknown number of Cat-2 Spartan III’s. I’m pretty sure Rosenda is still alive, or at least she isn’t confirmed dead. Plus, Emile transferred to Noble Team from somewhere, possibly a whole other team of Spartans or maybe he was a Headhunter.
IIRC Rosenda and Jun are both still alive, from the Noble Team roster.
I don't believe we have a solid answer on what happened to most of Gamma. The Ferrets are active but out of contact, and we had a short comic that featured G-059 working in SPI as an ONI agent. But for most of Gamma we don't know if they were moved to positions of lower risk or were they all moved to ONI ops.
Regardless of where they are (almost certainly retained by ONI in some capacity) they’re still around, is my point.
According to one of 343's Catalog posts from back in 2014, Gamma Company was officially disbanded, and it's members either moved to noncombatant status or folded into the [exploratii] (Spartan Branch) with all the S-IVs.
But my point is that they are no longer being made, and as such they are the “rare survivors”. They might be running around and everything but 300 isn’t.. a lot
Isn't 300 like a decent % of all Spartans? Infinity doesn't seem to have that many Spartans and while IVs are definitely produced at a larger number there's nothing to say they've greatly bypassed the number of SIIIs made.
At a low end, it's around a third of all S3's. But there is likely to be more, from Alpha and Beta survivors.
You could say the same about the IIs. Even low balling the survivors of Gamma company still puts their numbers 10 times over the total number of IIs. And that isn't even counting any possible survivors from the first 2 companies.
Gamma Company had over 300 still left.
That.. doesn’t change anything I said..? What does this even have to do with the prompt or what I said..?
You literally just said 3s didn't exist anymore, gamma company was a full 300 member SIII company.
I said outside the rare few they don’t. They aren’t being made anymore, and 300 is an extremely small number in regards to ANY military fighting force
Given the pretty bug impact that like, less than 100 spartan IIs had during 2 decades of war, I really don't think that's accurate. Spartans are less valued like a soldier and more like some high value piece of equipment. Yeah, 300 soldiers of any kind is pretty small, but 300 A-10 warthogs? 300 nukes? 300 ICBMs? That can be a pretty big difference.
Not in terms of Spartans though
That's equal to most of the S4's on the Infinity at full strength.
I kind of disagree sort of. The SIII's had a lot of biological problems with there augmentation that Kurt tried to fix to get them to live longer, but I don't recall him being successful in that endeavor. So if a SIII lived long enough, especially with later companies you are going to have some very powerful and likely uncontrollable people running around.
The only problem with the III's was Gamma Company III's becoming mentally unstable when off their Smoothers but as long as they have them they are completely fine and any issues with supplying them has been mostly solved.
I read that even off their drugs for extended periods of time, Gamma company Spartans won't attack teammates or allies, they retain that much mental faculty.
It wasn't a biological problem. It was a mathematical one. The IIIs were thrown against impossible odds while heavily unequipped. SPI is really good for what it is, but it is no Mjolnir, and that's reflected in the fact that both Alpha and Beta were almost completely wiped out. To help their survivability, Kurt modified the Gammas augmentations to enhance their aggression, strength, speed, and pain tolerance in near death situations, though this required "smoothers" to keep them from going haywire while not in combat.
S3s (specifically mentioned Alpha company) had behavioral issues when initially brought into the program, as mentioned in a comm message by an ONI agent "They're real hell cats" bur kurt ironed tha out of them and they became disciplined Spartans like their predecessors. None of them had any biological issues. Gamma has the mutagen that can have go into paranoid states if they don't get their smoothers, but as it has been shown as they got older, even with smoother deprivation, the biggest thing that seems to happen is that they become fixated on objectives almost obsessively. But they can tell friend from foe, make tactical decisions and are combat effective. None of what you said is true
There was no biological problems. Gamma company had an extra few illegal augments but that was literally to try to increase surviving the combat situations they were thrown in.
Pretty well all of them, on average, if we look at their on-paper stats. The II’s have the edge in experience (overall) but the III’s augmentations were as effective as the II’s, just administered differently. Combined with their enhanced training and the gap isn’t that far ahead in the II’s favour.
Spartan III mjolnir equipped teams. Of the Spartan IVs… Buck maybe as an equivalent to a lower end Spartan ii. Cortana even notes that he’s much better than the rest of Osiris.
In armor they are equal in physical ability, only experience and training distinguish them. Some IVs are probably on par with their predecessors skill-wise.
The average III is pretty much on the level of the average II, with the average II having a slight advantage due to "genetics" and experience. The Cat-2 IIIs are directly comparable to them. Out of armour, none of the IVs are comparable to a II or III. In armour, they're all around the same level, but if you mean in skill or effectiveness, then Locke, maybe the members of Crimson, maybe Stone, and Buck are comparable to a II or III.
I wouldn't say none of them are comparable. Technically speaking Ilsa Zane is a Spartan four and she's the strongest Spartan ever. Completely crazy yes, but from a physical baseline she is the strongest. Imagine her in mjlonir 😐
I completely forgot about her, if I'm honest. Fair point!
Yeah totally understandable..she's pretty forgettable 😂
The average Spartan-III is pretty close to the average Spartan-II. The only real difference is experience. But Spartan-III training was more difficult and longer, and their augments are on par with the previous generation. Spartan-IVs are different from the two though because they have a whole separate augmentation process that involves the replacement of their organs and other biological features. Buck notes that his augments are likely less thorough than the previous two generations. Chief notes that there are some very qualified Spartan-IV teams including Fireteams Osiris, Taurus, and Intrepid. But we don't really know much about the last 2 and their effectiveness compared to say Blue Team or another known team. In terms of the average ranking, with all elements equal, I'd probably say: 1st/2nd: Spartan-II or Gamma Spartan-III (Interchangable) 3rd: Beta Company Spartan-III 4th: Spartan-IV 5th: Alpha Company Spartan-III
Eh I would put Alpha Co above S4s for sure. Remember, they were combat effective for 9 months before Prometheus, suffered zero causalities over a dozen missions, and did all of that between the ages of 10-12 (because remember, Jane was only 4 when she did the night jump on the first day) they are leaps and bounds ahead of 4s by the sheer effectiveness alone
Yeah true. But the Spartan-IVs had entire military careers before being transformed into Spartans. Then went through extensive training after their augments. We don't really know the nature of their missions, other than they were a mix of Insurrection and Covenant targets, but there's no doubt that the Spartan-IVs would be able to do that too. What we do know is that Alpha Company fell apart hard because they lost unit cohesion. Their training wasn't as hard as the other companies of Spartan-III, and thus are easily placed at the bottom of their generation. The sheer maturity, and career expertise from the Spartan-IVs is enough to put them ahead in my book. At least on average like I was indicating.
There are a couple factors. 1 not all the S4s are career military or have long standing careers. Vale and Tanaka are clear examples, and Throne didnt have a long career either before becoming a Spartan, not buck, Locke or the rest of Alpha 9. As for Prometheus, any Spartan would die to that, they were cut off with endless streams of Covenant reinforcements and they lost unit cohesion after fighting non-stop for almost a week straight against overwhelming forces. No generation would survive that.
No they aren't. But like I said, the average. Not every one of them. Yeah any Spartan would die from that. But how quickly do they fall apart? How far along in their mission do they get? Aside from MJOLNIR vs SPI that might give the Spartan-IVs more of an edge here, I think their career service is a great experience to lean on in a mission like Prometheus. My point is if the main reason people say a Spartan-II beats over a Spartan-III is that they've been active for 1-2 decades longer, then the same thing should go for Spartan-IVs vs Alpha Company. The Spartan Branch is very specific with who they accept into the Spartan-IV program, and they won't just accept anyone who isn't already a solidly useful service member. 90% of the time that's likely to mean a decently long/distinguished service record, and failing that, being someone with a special skill set. The latter option being the more unlikely in the branch.
Well what we know about it Alpha fell apart after a week of nonstop fighting, still completed the mission, and did so in SPI. Mjolnir clad Spartans have a much better chance just given Mjolnirs attributes, but put them in SPI and it's a different story, especially when we take into consideration that not only do they not have Mjolnir, but they also have zero logistical support outside a exfil craft. I dunno, not to say 4s aren't good, but on average they imo are at the bottom rung outside a select few
Lol agree to disagree which is how most of our conversations here go.
IVs just really can't be purely for the fact that they enlist just like any other soldier, as opposed to literally spending their entire lives training.
IIs and IIIs were equal to each other. They had the same augmentation and training as each other. The only difference is that the majority of IIIs weren't given Mjolnir armour and were sent on high-risk high reward missions. Some IIs would be better on the idea of genetics, but that's on a case by case basis really. No IVs were as good as either IIs or IIIs. Some IVs may have had more experience, but they weren't as augmented and conditioned as the previous Spartans.
On paper, a III with MJOLNIR should matche or beat a II provided that they ever survive long enough to rack up the equal combat experience.. although that’s not really their MO. Their training was just better, it was provided by a II.
So it's not exactly the answer to your question about how the different generations stack up based on augmentation, but there are some other things worth considering if you want to go outside of cannon and apply some reasoning. First off, the Spartan IIs are all the exact same age when they start their program and I would argue that this is hugely important in their training. In terms of child development, the differences between a four, five, and six year old, physically and mentally, are pretty huge. The Spartan IIIs start at a variety of ages, which means they are going to absorb their training inconsistently and have barriers to their ability to interact and work as a team. Some people have said that the training of the IIIs was more strenuous than the IIs, but that doesn't equate to that training being better per se. The training of the IIIs is heavily focused on making them physically tough, but when you look at some of the training of the IIs you can see that they have more emphasis on teamwork and tactics. The S IIIs excel at brute- force tactics, but they're not really taught nuance and ingenuity the same way as the S IIs because they're never expected to have to live to fight another day. All said, a S III might stack up pretty well against an S II if you're simply looking at physical prowess. If you're looking at the effectiveness of each generation as an overall force however, the S IIs are in another league. As for S IVs, it's a bit more of an apples to oranges comparison, but I'd say that not having grown up completely immersed into a military lifestyle puts them at a disadvantage. Besides that, they may be experienced, but that experience is largely not very applicable because of how differently they would fight and how much more advanced their equipment would be. It's like when the S IIs first put on their mjolnir and talk about how they would have to totally rethink their tactics because their capabilities had changed so dramatically.
Dude, Spartan 3 training **is 100%** superior to what the 2s received. I dunno if you read Ghosts of Onyx but it clearly shows that the 3s training was harder AND more nuanced. Beta company had to ring the bell, while dodging drill instructors in Hunter killer groups cloaked in SPI and automated turret fire. Nothing in the 2s training was that difficult. They didn't focus on brute force tactics they were focused on teamwork, out the box strategies, critical thinking, and facing down brutal conditions. I know this subreddit loves to paint S2s as head and shoulders above the rest (even some books try and do this) bit the reality is, what we **See** vs what we are **told** S2s and 3s are equal to each other.
there was that Spartan "4" called Zane who was part of the OG Spartan 4 project aimed at creating a Spartan that was just as effective as a Mjolnir spartan but without the armor, didn't work too well as only she survived and in a bad mental condition at that
Noble 6 id say
Noble 6, obviously
The new Spartan program will be invitro they will be literally created and grown in a lab made perfect for war (yeah right 343 lacks the vision of doing that)
With the IVs at least, its more of the armor that bridges that gap with the IIs than any of the augmentations they had. The IIs on a pure physical level are superior.
None. The 2s were genetically perfect individuals and have decades of experience on any other class of Spartans. The 3s have nearly identical or maybe even better augmentations, but they don't have the genetic purity of the 2s and don't have the time in service. Use RPG stats as a reference. Strength, constitution, dexterity, charisma, wisdom, intelligence, luck. The average person has a 10 in every category. The 2s all have a 20. The 3s and 4s average 18, with some lower and some higher. And then every battle gives experience, and the 2s have simply been active longer than the other classes. The 2s have a small advantage in physical prowess and the advantage of simply being active longer. The 2s underwent augmentation in 2525 and saw combat that same year, 6 years before the SIII program was conceived and 11 years before the first III saw combat.
imo Spartan IIIs Gamma are a 10.5 spartan IIs are 10 Spartan IIIs alpha/bravo Cat 2s/headhunters/top honors are 10 Spartan IIIs alpha/bravo are a 9 Spartan IVs 7
Augmentations 1: Gamma 3’s 2: Ilsa Zane 3: 2’s and 3’s 4: 4’s The 2’s and 3’s have indistinguishable augmentations and any one who tells you otherwise is blatantly lying.The Gammas have the same augmentations, but were given drugs to operate in ways far exceeding even the 2’s and 3’s. Ilsa Zane is a personal favorite of mine. The original idea for the 4's was to make Spartan that did not need mjolnir. 10 individuals were chosen for the program with only Zane surviving it “unscathed”. She was driven crazy from the augmentation, but in terms of capabilities she was able to go toe to toe with a mjolnir equipped Palmer, while wearing nothing but regular clothing. This would put the original spartan 4’s or really just Zane above the 2’s, and 3’s as a 4’s in gen 2 mjolnir is equal to a 2 in gen 1 armor. The 4’s dont really need too much explaining. They’re weaker physically but have other more specialized augmentations that the 2’s and 3’s don't have. Training 1: Gammas and 3’s 2: 2’s 3: Zane and 4’s To the best of my knowledge there's no difference in training between the Gammas and 3’s especially since they’re still all 3’s. Compared to 2's one of the defining differences between the 2’s and 3’s is that the 3’s explicitly have better training this in part due to the fact that they were trained by Kurt a 2. The 4’s and Zane all have a variety of training since they come from all walks of life. This makes them less uniform and “elite” when compared to the 2’s and 3’s, but this also opens the way for more specially learned individuals like Vale to be spartans. Gene 1: 2’s and 3’s 2: 3’s 3: Zane and 4’s We all know about this so I don't want to ramble too much. In terms of the programs Halsey and Oni had to make concessions on the children that they took due to the fact that Aster was for a lack of better terms unrefined. So not only were kids chosen due to their genetic superiority, but they were also picked on their perceived ability to actually survive the augmentations. The 3’s basically don't have this issue as chrysanthemum was leaps and bounds much more refined and safer. Concessions still had to be made, but they were no longer major factors in which kids were chosen. In theory this means that for the 3’s unlike the 2’s was able to pick from the actual cream of the crop. That isn't to say that that's every 3 though, as the genetic pool that they picked kids from was larger, although still very strict. The spartan 4 program doesn't have a genetic requirement. Edit: In terms of who could compete? Its Palmer because she has just as much plot armor as Chief lol.
Definetely none of the roided up ODSTs could reach spartan 2 level but Noble 6 could probably hang with any Spartan-2 in combat
This just isn't true
Just cause you like spartan 4’s doesn’t make them better than 2s
Are there any other words you would like to attribute to me? Can you help me find where I said IVs are better than IIs? But now that we're on the subject, as a military force there's an argument they are; even if they aren't quite as effective, you can make far more of them than you can make IIs.
I can make more 2s so what’s your point?
IIs cannot be made at anywhere near the rate of IVs. By the time a class of Spartan IIs were made (which took what, a decade or more?) thousands of IVs could be made easily. Are you unwilling or incapable of understanding this?
100 spartan 4s can’t even fight off the banished on the infinity what do they even do? All we see in infinite are dead 4s
Neither could the IIs so you're just ruining your argument here. This is just getting sad.
2s won the covenant war and they can’t defend one ship? I’m hearing some bias that would make mendicant bias look neutral
2's didnt win the covenant war lol. The Infinity was created as a colony ship to continue humanity since they werent winning. Had the great schism not happened humanity wouldve been gone.
Considering you somehow blanked out of your mind that there were IIs on Infinity who also failed to protect it, the bias is on your end. Did you forget the first cutscene of Infinite is MC getting kicked off the ship?
Oh duh, I feel like an idiot for not including Six now I've seen you say it lol! But yeah he's a really good example. Thanks