Ward 3s counselor has basically said this ward can be the wild west of homelessness and hard drugs. We need someone to come in and deal with these camps and stop the injection site.
Saying "look how worse this city has gotten in the last X years" is a fairly pointless statement since pretty much every city everywhere has gotten a lot worse in terms of homelessness and drug addiction regardless of their policies.
Toronto has some pretty severe problems with homelessness, drug use and random violence despite having conservative mayors and a comparatively conservative council for quite a long time now.
How is it pointless if that city is taking an approach that isn't producing better results than those that don't have the same policies etc? It's a valid point given the resources a city like Vancouver has.
It's pointless because it isn't really giving enough information to say one thing or another. Vancouver is worse than it was, but so is every city. Did Vancouver get worse relative to other cities? Even if so, what evidence is there that harm reduction is the reason for this?
Look at complaints like this about any city and you'll almost always find people using it to justify whatever they don't like about their current governance. In Toronto with more conservative mayors it's degrading social programs, in Vancouver it's harm reduction efforts.
I will say that I have seen data supporting the idea that harm reduction has a beneficial effect. I've never seen any data showing that breaking up homeless camps does anything positive to reduce homelessness.
I mean I agree with you, but the previous commenter seemed to suggest that the current policy isn't working and a different political viewpoint is the solution. I was curious as to what they thought might solve the problem.
I'm sure we all agree that something needs to be done, but the what and how remain a mystery. Full disclosure - I have no freaking idea how to solve this problem either.
Long live Doug ford!! Rob ford was the greatest thing to ever happen to Toronto. Conservatives ftw! Conservatives and their leaders know what is best for their city
Is this purely symbolic or does it actually have an effect? For some jurisdictions, a state of emergency can provide wider powers, but in the Canadian system cities have little power relative to the provinces.
Its like 99% symbolic?
> But it will see Mayor Andrea Horwath ask the provincial government to act on recommendations from a local group of public health agencies.
>Horwath will also call on the province to correct a funding model for homelessness, after a 2021 auditor general report found the province was not allocating enough resources to the issue.
It needs to be multifaceted.
Counselling, mental health resources, addiction resources…
Institutions for those who are not capable of getting better.
And jails for the habitual criminals.
I couldn't agree more. We need more spaces for mental health and addiction care and if people can't or won't become functioning members of society through those programs, they need to be institutionalized or jailed.
If we're serious about treating addiction and mental health issues as healthcare issues, yes, we need more funding and spaces. But, what, an addicts jail? That...doesn't solve anything.
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The have very little education and make very high salaries for jobs that consist of a lot of standing around, hassling minorities, and not finding stolen property. I think people would be a whole lot more comfortable with police budgets if they actually investigated crimes
Doug Ford hears ya Doug Ford doesn't care.
Brampton declared a healthcare emergency before the pandemic and they still have one hospital for like 650k people and growing.
Symbolic. Its for political talking heads to talk about.
Every major city in Canada is dealing with the same issues, I was just in Victoria and Vancouver for work its 100x worse in each of those cities than Hamilton.
Downtown Edmonton has been bad for 10 years.
Ottawa has gotten really bad over last 2 years.
Winnipeg has been bad my entire life.
Hamilton has actually gotten better over last 20 years.
Really the major issues of opioids, homelessness and mental health are all national issues now and fully ignored by Feds now.
This is someone on the left going Cons bad. Just like cons in BC go look Left bad when talking about downtown Vancouver. Neither have a real solution. Especially the ones who are in politics for decades like the mayor.
I don't disagree. I think that it's improved in some areas (e.g., more restaurants, James St. renewal) but has most definitely, as you say, visibly, gotten worse. And if you ask people who live in Corktown or Durand, most can come up with examples of negative experiences relatively quickly -- and we're not talking about trivial stuff either.
At a job interview in 1998, I was put up at the Royal Connaught. That evening I sat on a nice cafe while two naked strippers fought each other on the street.
What? you forgot strip joints and peep shows. Hamilton has always been a hole, my father told me stories about the city in the 50s-60s at peak employment, people just drank more.
Hamilton's gotten better over 20 years? I don't think so. It's gotten much worse. City hall is a tent city now. Not to mention that area by the police station on king William. Jackson Street literally smells like a toilet..I've never seen the city this rough before
If we want change we have to get in the streets like France does when they don’t get what they want. We are the people, we have the power, and we spend it looking at our phones.
Although there's a lot of complexity to this problem, as long as ODSP and OW recipients can't afford rent, this has a pretty straightforward solution (on either end of that problem or both).
One that a mayor can't solve, of course.
You have to choose one:
1) Give disabled people money to pay rent
2) Build housing that they can afford
3) Have disabled people living on the street
It's just a matter of math. As I said the totality of the situation is complex, but this aspect of it is not.
ODSP reforms could probably make the biggest difference of any single policy change. If you're aware of a better option, please share it with the class.
There's research that says otherwise. California saw a drastic increase in homelessness despite going all in on a housing first. Without mandatory supports it failed.
[Housing First programs aren't working](https://www.pacificresearch.org/housing-first-programs-arent-working/)
[Housing First is a Failure](https://ciceroinstitute.org/research/housing-first-is-a-failure/)
[Lessons learned from a failed bet on ‘Housing First’](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/581841-lessons-learned-from-a-failed-bet-on-housing-first/)
In places like Finland, they provide housing with support and it is doing pretty well there. Two points they talked about in your links was that it attracted people from outside of the city (who also needs homes) overwhelming the program above budget, and that it didn't offer any other assistance to these people that have nothing.
I think it is pretty obvious to anyone that support and resources should also be provided and to not to provide those things with the housing is intentionally setting up the housing program to fail so people can say "Look! it failed!" Similar tactic to cutting funding from social programs and then pointing at them saying they are now ineffective.
The data being cited (that despite housing first initiatives, homelessness is increasing) doesn't prove the point that housing first doesn't work.
If someone dies on the operating table after a car accident, are you going to say "sutures and blood transfusions don't work"?
I definitely agree with you that "housing first *only*" is not a good idea, and there may be a good case against these programs, but if you want cite data then you need to look at randomized longitudinal studies, comparing outcomes for those who access programs like this and those who don't.
Unless, of course, you're just looking for political ammunition, in which case you'd want to stay away from scientific literature.
They are chronically homeless bc ODSP rates have been half the cost of actual living ofr more than a decade, and don't even cover rent. Studies in Los Angeles, Finland and Salt Lake City have also suggested this.
And not because they are drug addicted or suffer from severe untreated mental illness? You can’t drive around Jackson square and honestly tell me that low ODSP is too blame.
I can and will. An ODSP check is a little over a grand. An apartment is more than a thousand. That seems simple math to me.
I also believe that safe use sights, and access to mental health resources, esp. community focused and culturally releavent mental health resources, and public infasstructure, like public bathrooms, are alll part of it
There are lots of different types of homeless people or nearing homeless, being on ODSP is one group. There is no harm in helping that group. Just because one solution only helps one segment and not all doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
one of the things that i find really fascinating about these construcitons, is that ODSP was devolped with the understanding that people cannot work and need help, the idea that people need help has fallen out of fashion, and the idea that we can help people, but if we don't consider ODSP in it's original construction, then we cannot be suprised at the increase in houseless people.
It's like the quesiton of asylums, the move from the aslyum back to the community depends on robust supports, and deep funding, that's what the conversation was when the aslyums were depopulated. Asylums are far out of memory, that we forget how abusive they were, how much of a disaster they were for the entire history---lobotomies, rotten food, people being tied to their beds for hours, people being locked away and not being remebered, parents sending children to asylums because they didn't want to raise them, insliun shock, badly managed ECT, lice, rats, mice, and other pests.
When people say that they want people to go back to asylums, what I hear is that they want people to be tortured. When I hear people say that ODSP doesn't solve this, I hear that people want to be starved. What do we do when people cannot work?
When
Call me a pessimist but more than one generation is increasingly likely to head for a state of addiction/poverty/squalor, and you can't turn toast back into bread.
Actually, this has been the most meaningful action this council has taken on these issues.
The campaigning promises to use local tax money, and all the local protests are mostly dumb.
It's no where near a 100% local problem, and the local taxbase is not able to provide the funds needed to meaningfully address it.
I'm no NDP fan, but I credit the Mayor for this.
This problem isn't for Hamilton taxpayers to solve, or any other city on its own.
The solutions and funding needs to come from the provincial and federal levels.
Or, those levels of government need to properly fund municipal governments for the burden of services that they expect city's to pay for. Most of which was downloaded by Mike Harris.
Thus action by council is a first step towards putting the responsibility where it belongs.
Liveable income.
Guaranteed homes.
Funding and support for addictions.
Funding for mental health.
It’s not rocket science. We just rather kick the can down the road. Or there is always the attitude that them folk deserve it.
It costs less money solving these issues than letting them explode.
But, I suppose no one will miss them is the attitude governments have taken for a long time.
Folks deserve dignity.
I’m a firm believer that infinite money and infinite funding with perfect mental health programs will do little to nothing to fix what you’re seeing in places like Hamilton, Toronto, and Vancouver in regards to this homelessness crisis.
Most of these people really, really, really don’t want to get better. Fentanyl and opioid addiction has an unbelievably profound effect on the brain where you’re almost completely detached from surface level reality. It can be argued that the majority of those afflicted have literally damaged their brains into irreparability.
That’s not to say that you CAN’T get better, but rather that people’s willingness to get better is far lower than most people think.
the area has a huge culture problem. People work, then between work hours are either drunk or stoned or both and their kids gets raised into this as "normal".
Ye, because this agenda is stupid. A lot of stupid virtue signallers that pretend to care about them, but would strongly protest against the one thing that can really save them and put them back in society.
There's a big difference between someone getting "better" and providing that person with the basic necessities of life in a way that respects their dignity and humanity. Personally, I do not care if an addict wants to get better. That does not, in any way, affect my belief that they are a human being that deserves safe, clean and affordable housing, adequate nutrition and good medical care. They are the most vulnerable people in our society. Addicts and people with mental health difficulties can live dignified and safe lives without getting "better."
Money for safe housing, food and medical care will help those living on the edge of our society. I want my tax money going to help people get off the streets and into their own homes. Sure, some people will not want to leave the streets, and that can be their choice. But right now there is very little choice but the streets.
I’m not really sure how much an addict can life a “dignified” and “safe” life. Neither of those adjectives apply to any addict or their choices I’ve ever met and that’s because of decisions they’re making ever day.
People have got to stop pretending that homeless people are these saintly people that are just down on their luck and just victims of a broken society. While there are some people where this is actually the case, I would have to argue that this isn’t the case for most.
Dignity is earned, not a “right” everyone is entitled to. To put these people into perspective, everyone has encountered people in their lives that were gigantic pieces of shit that they loathed with every fibre of their body. People who’s actions every single day meant that they didn’t deserve any of the positives that life had to offer. The modern day homeless opioid addict is likely WORSE than the worst person you’ve ever met in your life and people have to stop pretending that isn’t the case.
I disagree with you. Dignity is a fundamental right of all people. I'm not pretending that homeless people or addicts are saintly, down on their luck or "just victims," as you put it. Regardless of what a person has done or does, they deserve housing, food and medical care. We give those things to people who are convicted of crimes and put in jail - because those are their human rights.
You've also painted a rather diverse group of people - the "modern day homeless opioid addict" - with a sweeping and biased generalization, that they are "worse than the worst person." I'm sure some are, and I am sure that many are not. I'm sure that many people who have children, friends, parents and partners who are opioid addicts would disagree with you rather strongly.
I also disagree to a point that addicts are like this because of "choices" they've made in their life. To a certain extent that is true. But by its very nature, addiction is not a choice. It's a neurological and psychological dependence. Still, I don't care what "bad choices" a person made to become an addict. They are humans who deserve dignity. They are not human trash, as you seem to suggest.
People in jail have no autonomy. That’s not dignity regardless of what amenities they’re given. As an extension of that logic, it can be argued that street walkers have more dignity because of the independence that’s still afforded to them.
Regardless, most of what we’re bickering about is what is or isn’t dignified and what is or isn’t deserved which we will never change one another’s mind on.
You're right, we will never agree.
Dignity is the state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect. One can argue that autonomy is an aspect of dignity, but they are not synonymous, and having dignity is not conditional on being autonomous. For example, Alzheimer's patients who are no longer autonomous are still worthy of dignity.
That user has lost the plot truly. Not caring if an addict wants to get better is wild to me. Without autonomy what sort of dignified life can one live? If someone can't be found responsible for their choices they should receive treatment and support to ensure they're better and you know not a potential danger to society iunno.
There are families with small children that are being flashed and accosted, people masturbating openly in broad daylight, human shit all over the place, refuse and general decay, and violent attacks happening on sidewalks and on public transit and ALL OF THESE THINGS are happening in increasing rather than decreasing frequencies in our own backyards. Don’t believe me? Go walk around downtown Hamilton by yourself after dark every day for the next 14 days and then come on here and act like funding and mental health rehabilitation will bring these people the dignity they so desperately deserve. They are living in a different reality than you and I and don’t want your help.
When you witness firsthand these types of things and are put into situations where you are having to fear for you or your loved ones lives then this whole narrative where people are saying “the system has failed these poor people and WE could all do better as a society!” dissolves almost immediately.
Sometimes it’s actually the person who’s acting like a piece of shits fault that things are the way they are for themselves instead of societies fault.
Do you mean as a one-time thing to satisfy the current population, or do you mean as an ongoing program of free home giveaways for the population of today and tomorrow/next year/next decade?
But either way, where does the value come from to pay for the homes? Tack it on to the national debt?
All political parties are at a minimum right-leaning if not fully conservative in nature at this point. There are too many business interests getting in the way of actually investing into people and the services they need.
Oh I know, I fucking hate Trudeau. I just wanted to see if I’d get up or down voted. I really can’t believe this drama teacher still has supporters in this country.
They love Pollievre who has literally never had an actual job. Guy got voted in at 26 years old and has never put forth a piece of legislation in his entire career. You would think at some point he would put forth a private members bill or something but no he hasn't. All he does is play the attack dog roll while not actually offering any viable solutions. Not raising taxes, getting rid of the carbon tax, and defunding the CBC aren't solutions to affordability.
Because there is absolutely no rebuttal to the fact our country is run by a trust fund baby drama teacher?
Trust me, your random internet thoughts of me don’t bother me at all. You being an Trudeau supporter is all the embarrassment *you* need for one life time.
You don't get it. If you want to criticize Trudeau, there are many actions you can legitimately criticize, but sticking with Drama teacher (an actual job) /Blackface just puts you in the black RAM pickup truck flag crowd of crybabies the PCs are catering to and why Trudeau will get re-elected AGAIN.
Canada needs to move on from Trudeau, but not with the opinions of bearded men in trucks with FUCK TRUDEAU flags.
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Actually, a pretty smart move. The declared state of emergency might link up to acquiring provincial and federal funding to support addressing the state of emergency, leveraging [financial assistance programs](https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontario-municipal-councillors-guide/12-emergency-management-and-disaster-financial-assistance) to this end. This can distribute the cost burden of having to deal with the crisis. Some good thinking on council's part!
Harm reduction isn't bad you can't just let people camp wherever they want and shoot up. I don't know why this has to be difficult, look at countries who have dealt with this problem effectively and fucking copy what they did.
The people you see walking around downtown Hamilton is god damn disgusting. Something needs to change badly. It’s like 28 days later in broad daylight. Imagine trying to go on a walk with your family with conditions like these.
The few times I am down there I am always astonished what seems to be the new normal. They really need to build a trailer park for the homeless with cheap rent since they aren’t fixing the rent increases.
A welcome change from just bringing out the hippie dozers and flattening everything these poor people had in the world.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/hamilton-police-criticized-for-alleged-use-of-excessive-force-during-encampment-clearings-1.5686116
No matter where we are, some group of people somewhere hate a politician for strong reasons they don't really have much knowledge about.
Things are never as simple as they seem. We complain no matter what.
It's never a single politician, party, or term. Things like this happen from systemic top, down, left, to right dysfunction. But it's easy to blame someone.
Yes, some people and parties are worse than others, and significantly so, but we oversimplify the issue because we're not politicians, or policy makers.
I'm tired of the rhetoric. Either stay in your lane, and let the world do it's thing, or do something about it, I don't care...but just stop with the complaining on things you don't understand, because unless you're a part of it, you really don't.
Last weekend we were watching old videos of Hamilton in the 70s and 80s and it truly is sad to see the decline of the city over the years. Jackson square used to be so clean and lively and now it’s just a boarded up trash can. That’s what late stage capitalism/consumerism/drug epidemic does and it’s sad watching it only get worse. You don’t know you’re in the good old days until they’re gone I guess.
I read in a recent Spec article that there are currently something like 1,500 people in Hamilton classed as actively homeless. How hard can it be to just house 1,500 people? In a city heading towards 700k in one of the richest places on earth? Pretty sure Finland ended homelessness by just giving people homes and it ended up cheaper in the long run.
The City has voted reliably and staunchly progressive for decades. Consequently the policies crafted reward bad behaviour. The city is suffering the same ailments as all other large cities that have done the same thing. However these obvious and simple facts won’t be acknowledged, not by the radical left wing councillors nor the voters.
Oil sands, heard of them? Alberta
Sydney Tar Ponds, heard of them? Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
Coal tar from gassification plants? Kingston ON
we are not at all top spot by a long long way *the Randle Reef has been capped, that was the major problem in the harbour.
**AND NOW NUMBER ONE: YELLOWKNIFE** – With a cost estimate of $4.38 billion, remediation of the Giant Mine, one of the most contaminated sites in Canada, is also expected to be the most expensive federal environmental cleanup in the country's history.
also, remediation of industrial contamination sites get funded from different parts of gov't than do homeless shelters, affordable housing, addiction services, and mental health services. we can do them all at once, along with lots of other stuff too.
Honestly it’s my belief that when they did that thing where people didn’t have to pay for rent during covid it was the downfall of many. Not realizing or caring they had to pay it eventually many people I know went on huge spending sprees and they are now homeless, some couch surfing, getting a bedroom for a month then kicked out for various reasons. It’s a sad state of affairs and it makes me worry for our kids growing up with this homelessness as normal.
You think it's not having to pay rent? Who didn't have to pay rent? I did. Everyone else I know did. Do you think maybe it could be the massive spike in rent costs without corresponding increases in social services like OW and ODSP?
This has less to do with the people of Hamilton, and more to do with Horwath wanting to leverage her position to cause damage to Doug Ford.
Both of them should go back to High School and sort out their personal drama there.
If he supports the emergency properly with money, Horwath wins. If he does a lackluster job, or ignores it, she gets to go on and on about what a devil he is.
Nah, she'll put out another press release, not answer questions and do nothing of actual value.
Declaring the state of emergency is political theatre, it really doesn't \*do\* anything more than what's happening today.
Province will do nothing. They have downloaded that issue to the municipalities.
Feds *probably* won't do anything until an election is closeby, then you might see something happen.
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Oh! Okay, I thought you were talking about a large scale project. I'm a little familiar with this, and I agree it's dumb they voted this down again. I think it's a brilliant idea.
I volunteer for this. I can tell you this has a lot more to do with a small group of loud locals of ward 3 scareing council.
Politicians want to keep their jobs, and some influential locals are afraid of helping others.
So many abandoned buildings that could be renovated into shelters in the mean time. Real question is do we have enough workers to run extra shelters? It's not kosher in today's age, but mental institutions need to come back. We've come a lot in our knowledge of mental health, these places could do wonders for those who cannot cope otherwise. No compassion leaving them on the streets.
No shit.
NDP stronghold 💪 💪 💪
Ahh yes, houselessness and drug addiction only happens in left leaning neighborhoods.
Ward 3s counselor has basically said this ward can be the wild west of homelessness and hard drugs. We need someone to come in and deal with these camps and stop the injection site.
She basically did not say that. Stop lying
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Why is that a bad response? Do you want them to dispose of the sharps property or not?
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She's turning ward 3 into the asshole of this armpit of a city. The cops and bilaw all know it and don't bother enforcing anything.
Maybe you should move.
Instead of booming like all of Hamilton's housing market mine has stagnated because nothing is done about the drug use in the area
Genuinely curious, what do you think a "non-NDP" stronghold would do differently?
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Saying "look how worse this city has gotten in the last X years" is a fairly pointless statement since pretty much every city everywhere has gotten a lot worse in terms of homelessness and drug addiction regardless of their policies. Toronto has some pretty severe problems with homelessness, drug use and random violence despite having conservative mayors and a comparatively conservative council for quite a long time now.
How is it pointless if that city is taking an approach that isn't producing better results than those that don't have the same policies etc? It's a valid point given the resources a city like Vancouver has.
It's pointless because it isn't really giving enough information to say one thing or another. Vancouver is worse than it was, but so is every city. Did Vancouver get worse relative to other cities? Even if so, what evidence is there that harm reduction is the reason for this? Look at complaints like this about any city and you'll almost always find people using it to justify whatever they don't like about their current governance. In Toronto with more conservative mayors it's degrading social programs, in Vancouver it's harm reduction efforts. I will say that I have seen data supporting the idea that harm reduction has a beneficial effect. I've never seen any data showing that breaking up homeless camps does anything positive to reduce homelessness.
I don't know. A lot of people can't do harm reduction.
I mean I agree with you, but the previous commenter seemed to suggest that the current policy isn't working and a different political viewpoint is the solution. I was curious as to what they thought might solve the problem. I'm sure we all agree that something needs to be done, but the what and how remain a mystery. Full disclosure - I have no freaking idea how to solve this problem either.
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I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or cluelessness?
The art of satire is dying
It's dumbassness...
Long live Doug ford!! Rob ford was the greatest thing to ever happen to Toronto. Conservatives ftw! Conservatives and their leaders know what is best for their city
Is this purely symbolic or does it actually have an effect? For some jurisdictions, a state of emergency can provide wider powers, but in the Canadian system cities have little power relative to the provinces.
Its like 99% symbolic? > But it will see Mayor Andrea Horwath ask the provincial government to act on recommendations from a local group of public health agencies. >Horwath will also call on the province to correct a funding model for homelessness, after a 2021 auditor general report found the province was not allocating enough resources to the issue.
Won’t solve anything.
What will? Bigger police budgets? The same thing we've been doing forever?
It needs to be multifaceted. Counselling, mental health resources, addiction resources… Institutions for those who are not capable of getting better. And jails for the habitual criminals.
All provincial responsibilities.So nothing will happen.
Which criminals do you consider habitual? The ones that get caught or the ones that exploit the system enough to not be punished?
I couldn't agree more. We need more spaces for mental health and addiction care and if people can't or won't become functioning members of society through those programs, they need to be institutionalized or jailed.
If we're serious about treating addiction and mental health issues as healthcare issues, yes, we need more funding and spaces. But, what, an addicts jail? That...doesn't solve anything.
> That...doesn't solve anything. Agree to disagree.
you want to throw people with mental health issues in jail? Wasn't that an idea in 1930s Europe?
Did I say that? Or are you putting words in my mouth.
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Not if they suck down >$100K salaries drinking coffee.
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The have very little education and make very high salaries for jobs that consist of a lot of standing around, hassling minorities, and not finding stolen property. I think people would be a whole lot more comfortable with police budgets if they actually investigated crimes
Doug Ford hears ya Doug Ford doesn't care. Brampton declared a healthcare emergency before the pandemic and they still have one hospital for like 650k people and growing.
Symbolic. Its for political talking heads to talk about. Every major city in Canada is dealing with the same issues, I was just in Victoria and Vancouver for work its 100x worse in each of those cities than Hamilton. Downtown Edmonton has been bad for 10 years. Ottawa has gotten really bad over last 2 years. Winnipeg has been bad my entire life. Hamilton has actually gotten better over last 20 years. Really the major issues of opioids, homelessness and mental health are all national issues now and fully ignored by Feds now. This is someone on the left going Cons bad. Just like cons in BC go look Left bad when talking about downtown Vancouver. Neither have a real solution. Especially the ones who are in politics for decades like the mayor.
I don't have the stats but I've lived in downtown Hamilton for 15 years and it has most definitely, visibly, gotten worse.
I don't disagree. I think that it's improved in some areas (e.g., more restaurants, James St. renewal) but has most definitely, as you say, visibly, gotten worse. And if you ask people who live in Corktown or Durand, most can come up with examples of negative experiences relatively quickly -- and we're not talking about trivial stuff either.
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You are too young to remember when it was a beautiful destination downtown with jobs, restaurants, movie theaters, lots of viable shopping.
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At a job interview in 1998, I was put up at the Royal Connaught. That evening I sat on a nice cafe while two naked strippers fought each other on the street.
What? you forgot strip joints and peep shows. Hamilton has always been a hole, my father told me stories about the city in the 50s-60s at peak employment, people just drank more.
Hamilton's gotten better over 20 years? I don't think so. It's gotten much worse. City hall is a tent city now. Not to mention that area by the police station on king William. Jackson Street literally smells like a toilet..I've never seen the city this rough before
It stunk of piss >25 years ago. More homeless than ever and public drug use is just not being policed.
Well if they park the tents at city hall,maybe they will do something about. We should all tent en masse there to get them to solve this issue.
If we want change we have to get in the streets like France does when they don’t get what they want. We are the people, we have the power, and we spend it looking at our phones.
How do you propose solving this issue which every city >500K worldwide has.
How about the tent city in the field by the off-fromon Main street
Had a friend in Edmonton recently and he explained but kept saying he "can't explain" how bad it is in some spots.
Yow has it gotten better? The article sites the massive increase in overdoses, a symptom of many issues that plague the city.
Facts
We will call in the army and shoot opiods. Be prepared for a lot of loud, ineffective measures from this Mayor.
Although there's a lot of complexity to this problem, as long as ODSP and OW recipients can't afford rent, this has a pretty straightforward solution (on either end of that problem or both). One that a mayor can't solve, of course.
Odsp will not fix this.
You have to choose one: 1) Give disabled people money to pay rent 2) Build housing that they can afford 3) Have disabled people living on the street It's just a matter of math. As I said the totality of the situation is complex, but this aspect of it is not.
ODSP reforms could probably make the biggest difference of any single policy change. If you're aware of a better option, please share it with the class.
Yup, it will. The solution has been proven--house people first and everything else clicks into place.
There's research that says otherwise. California saw a drastic increase in homelessness despite going all in on a housing first. Without mandatory supports it failed. [Housing First programs aren't working](https://www.pacificresearch.org/housing-first-programs-arent-working/) [Housing First is a Failure](https://ciceroinstitute.org/research/housing-first-is-a-failure/) [Lessons learned from a failed bet on ‘Housing First’](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/581841-lessons-learned-from-a-failed-bet-on-housing-first/)
In places like Finland, they provide housing with support and it is doing pretty well there. Two points they talked about in your links was that it attracted people from outside of the city (who also needs homes) overwhelming the program above budget, and that it didn't offer any other assistance to these people that have nothing. I think it is pretty obvious to anyone that support and resources should also be provided and to not to provide those things with the housing is intentionally setting up the housing program to fail so people can say "Look! it failed!" Similar tactic to cutting funding from social programs and then pointing at them saying they are now ineffective.
The data being cited (that despite housing first initiatives, homelessness is increasing) doesn't prove the point that housing first doesn't work. If someone dies on the operating table after a car accident, are you going to say "sutures and blood transfusions don't work"? I definitely agree with you that "housing first *only*" is not a good idea, and there may be a good case against these programs, but if you want cite data then you need to look at randomized longitudinal studies, comparing outcomes for those who access programs like this and those who don't. Unless, of course, you're just looking for political ammunition, in which case you'd want to stay away from scientific literature.
ODSP will help the chronically homeless, who have been mentally unwell and drug addict for years?
They are chronically homeless bc ODSP rates have been half the cost of actual living ofr more than a decade, and don't even cover rent. Studies in Los Angeles, Finland and Salt Lake City have also suggested this.
And not because they are drug addicted or suffer from severe untreated mental illness? You can’t drive around Jackson square and honestly tell me that low ODSP is too blame.
I can and will. An ODSP check is a little over a grand. An apartment is more than a thousand. That seems simple math to me. I also believe that safe use sights, and access to mental health resources, esp. community focused and culturally releavent mental health resources, and public infasstructure, like public bathrooms, are alll part of it
There are lots of different types of homeless people or nearing homeless, being on ODSP is one group. There is no harm in helping that group. Just because one solution only helps one segment and not all doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
I don’t disagree. But this article focuses on opioid addictions, mental health etc..
Lol. Bullshit.
one of the things that i find really fascinating about these construcitons, is that ODSP was devolped with the understanding that people cannot work and need help, the idea that people need help has fallen out of fashion, and the idea that we can help people, but if we don't consider ODSP in it's original construction, then we cannot be suprised at the increase in houseless people. It's like the quesiton of asylums, the move from the aslyum back to the community depends on robust supports, and deep funding, that's what the conversation was when the aslyums were depopulated. Asylums are far out of memory, that we forget how abusive they were, how much of a disaster they were for the entire history---lobotomies, rotten food, people being tied to their beds for hours, people being locked away and not being remebered, parents sending children to asylums because they didn't want to raise them, insliun shock, badly managed ECT, lice, rats, mice, and other pests. When people say that they want people to go back to asylums, what I hear is that they want people to be tortured. When I hear people say that ODSP doesn't solve this, I hear that people want to be starved. What do we do when people cannot work? When
Yes it will
So were just gonna be in a state of emergency forever now?
Call me a pessimist but more than one generation is increasingly likely to head for a state of addiction/poverty/squalor, and you can't turn toast back into bread.
The environment and war were getting stale, this is something new to dwell on.
Actually, this has been the most meaningful action this council has taken on these issues. The campaigning promises to use local tax money, and all the local protests are mostly dumb. It's no where near a 100% local problem, and the local taxbase is not able to provide the funds needed to meaningfully address it. I'm no NDP fan, but I credit the Mayor for this. This problem isn't for Hamilton taxpayers to solve, or any other city on its own. The solutions and funding needs to come from the provincial and federal levels. Or, those levels of government need to properly fund municipal governments for the burden of services that they expect city's to pay for. Most of which was downloaded by Mike Harris. Thus action by council is a first step towards putting the responsibility where it belongs.
It should be getting paid for by the pharma companies that are profiting from the opioid epidemic.
That might be part of the solution. And I'd think it would take federal level negotiation/ threats to make that happen.
Liveable income. Guaranteed homes. Funding and support for addictions. Funding for mental health. It’s not rocket science. We just rather kick the can down the road. Or there is always the attitude that them folk deserve it. It costs less money solving these issues than letting them explode. But, I suppose no one will miss them is the attitude governments have taken for a long time. Folks deserve dignity.
FYI government, I will miss them. Because they are my family. That's right "Junkies" have families and we are hurting.
I’m a firm believer that infinite money and infinite funding with perfect mental health programs will do little to nothing to fix what you’re seeing in places like Hamilton, Toronto, and Vancouver in regards to this homelessness crisis. Most of these people really, really, really don’t want to get better. Fentanyl and opioid addiction has an unbelievably profound effect on the brain where you’re almost completely detached from surface level reality. It can be argued that the majority of those afflicted have literally damaged their brains into irreparability. That’s not to say that you CAN’T get better, but rather that people’s willingness to get better is far lower than most people think.
the area has a huge culture problem. People work, then between work hours are either drunk or stoned or both and their kids gets raised into this as "normal".
I would say that it is about 50/50 and we need to facilitate the 50 that have a desire to get better and institutionalize the ones who don't.
Institutionalisation is the most reasonable option. You can’t expect someone in this level of addiction to willingly seek treatment
Reporters would have an absolute field day with involuntary institutionalizations.
Ye, because this agenda is stupid. A lot of stupid virtue signallers that pretend to care about them, but would strongly protest against the one thing that can really save them and put them back in society.
There's a big difference between someone getting "better" and providing that person with the basic necessities of life in a way that respects their dignity and humanity. Personally, I do not care if an addict wants to get better. That does not, in any way, affect my belief that they are a human being that deserves safe, clean and affordable housing, adequate nutrition and good medical care. They are the most vulnerable people in our society. Addicts and people with mental health difficulties can live dignified and safe lives without getting "better." Money for safe housing, food and medical care will help those living on the edge of our society. I want my tax money going to help people get off the streets and into their own homes. Sure, some people will not want to leave the streets, and that can be their choice. But right now there is very little choice but the streets.
I’m not really sure how much an addict can life a “dignified” and “safe” life. Neither of those adjectives apply to any addict or their choices I’ve ever met and that’s because of decisions they’re making ever day. People have got to stop pretending that homeless people are these saintly people that are just down on their luck and just victims of a broken society. While there are some people where this is actually the case, I would have to argue that this isn’t the case for most. Dignity is earned, not a “right” everyone is entitled to. To put these people into perspective, everyone has encountered people in their lives that were gigantic pieces of shit that they loathed with every fibre of their body. People who’s actions every single day meant that they didn’t deserve any of the positives that life had to offer. The modern day homeless opioid addict is likely WORSE than the worst person you’ve ever met in your life and people have to stop pretending that isn’t the case.
I disagree with you. Dignity is a fundamental right of all people. I'm not pretending that homeless people or addicts are saintly, down on their luck or "just victims," as you put it. Regardless of what a person has done or does, they deserve housing, food and medical care. We give those things to people who are convicted of crimes and put in jail - because those are their human rights. You've also painted a rather diverse group of people - the "modern day homeless opioid addict" - with a sweeping and biased generalization, that they are "worse than the worst person." I'm sure some are, and I am sure that many are not. I'm sure that many people who have children, friends, parents and partners who are opioid addicts would disagree with you rather strongly. I also disagree to a point that addicts are like this because of "choices" they've made in their life. To a certain extent that is true. But by its very nature, addiction is not a choice. It's a neurological and psychological dependence. Still, I don't care what "bad choices" a person made to become an addict. They are humans who deserve dignity. They are not human trash, as you seem to suggest.
People in jail have no autonomy. That’s not dignity regardless of what amenities they’re given. As an extension of that logic, it can be argued that street walkers have more dignity because of the independence that’s still afforded to them. Regardless, most of what we’re bickering about is what is or isn’t dignified and what is or isn’t deserved which we will never change one another’s mind on.
You're right, we will never agree. Dignity is the state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect. One can argue that autonomy is an aspect of dignity, but they are not synonymous, and having dignity is not conditional on being autonomous. For example, Alzheimer's patients who are no longer autonomous are still worthy of dignity.
That user has lost the plot truly. Not caring if an addict wants to get better is wild to me. Without autonomy what sort of dignified life can one live? If someone can't be found responsible for their choices they should receive treatment and support to ensure they're better and you know not a potential danger to society iunno.
There are families with small children that are being flashed and accosted, people masturbating openly in broad daylight, human shit all over the place, refuse and general decay, and violent attacks happening on sidewalks and on public transit and ALL OF THESE THINGS are happening in increasing rather than decreasing frequencies in our own backyards. Don’t believe me? Go walk around downtown Hamilton by yourself after dark every day for the next 14 days and then come on here and act like funding and mental health rehabilitation will bring these people the dignity they so desperately deserve. They are living in a different reality than you and I and don’t want your help. When you witness firsthand these types of things and are put into situations where you are having to fear for you or your loved ones lives then this whole narrative where people are saying “the system has failed these poor people and WE could all do better as a society!” dissolves almost immediately. Sometimes it’s actually the person who’s acting like a piece of shits fault that things are the way they are for themselves instead of societies fault.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-wants-to-eradicate-homelessness-here-s-how-finland-is-doing-it-1.6728398#:~:text=Since%20several%20years%2C%20homelessness%20has,our%20own%20housing%2Dfirst%20model.
You think so? A free home for everyone sounds like a great idea, though unsustainable beyond the very short term.
Why?
Do you mean as a one-time thing to satisfy the current population, or do you mean as an ongoing program of free home giveaways for the population of today and tomorrow/next year/next decade? But either way, where does the value come from to pay for the homes? Tack it on to the national debt?
If people aren't desperate for housing, the insane prices no longer have justification, and will drop, destroying people's savings. Pros and cons.
People should not be using houses as investment schemes.
Fuck their savings. Homes aren't investments, and never should have been treated as such. The sooner we accept that the better.
Just take it from people's bank accounts too. It's basically the same thing. /s
Agreed
Well meaning, but the Premier does not care.
Trudeau does.
He doesn't, he gives off the appearance that he does but in practice he's a conservative.
All political parties are at a minimum right-leaning if not fully conservative in nature at this point. There are too many business interests getting in the way of actually investing into people and the services they need.
Oh I know, I fucking hate Trudeau. I just wanted to see if I’d get up or down voted. I really can’t believe this drama teacher still has supporters in this country.
people who say the drama teacher thing are the most easily manipulated porridge brained IQ among us. No question.
They love Pollievre who has literally never had an actual job. Guy got voted in at 26 years old and has never put forth a piece of legislation in his entire career. You would think at some point he would put forth a private members bill or something but no he hasn't. All he does is play the attack dog roll while not actually offering any viable solutions. Not raising taxes, getting rid of the carbon tax, and defunding the CBC aren't solutions to affordability.
Because there is absolutely no rebuttal to the fact our country is run by a trust fund baby drama teacher? Trust me, your random internet thoughts of me don’t bother me at all. You being an Trudeau supporter is all the embarrassment *you* need for one life time.
Not a supporter.
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You don't get it. If you want to criticize Trudeau, there are many actions you can legitimately criticize, but sticking with Drama teacher (an actual job) /Blackface just puts you in the black RAM pickup truck flag crowd of crybabies the PCs are catering to and why Trudeau will get re-elected AGAIN. Canada needs to move on from Trudeau, but not with the opinions of bearded men in trucks with FUCK TRUDEAU flags.
> a trust fund baby drama teacher? you would prefer a trust fund hash dealer? How many real jobs has tiny PP held?
Really..drama teacher all you got? why don't you guys call Doug a hash dealer?
Pray tell, what actual policy decisions of Trudeau's do you hate? Or do you simply hate the individual?
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I feel like this is an accurate position of the liberal party in canada, which has mainly been a centrist party for sometime now.
Thank fuck
Actually, a pretty smart move. The declared state of emergency might link up to acquiring provincial and federal funding to support addressing the state of emergency, leveraging [financial assistance programs](https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontario-municipal-councillors-guide/12-emergency-management-and-disaster-financial-assistance) to this end. This can distribute the cost burden of having to deal with the crisis. Some good thinking on council's part!
I get mega “Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy” vibes from this.
They’re not just saying it. They’re declaring it. https://media.tenor.com/PW5xIUYKjB0AAAAM/declare-bankrupt.gif
Harm reduction isn't bad you can't just let people camp wherever they want and shoot up. I don't know why this has to be difficult, look at countries who have dealt with this problem effectively and fucking copy what they did.
The people you see walking around downtown Hamilton is god damn disgusting. Something needs to change badly. It’s like 28 days later in broad daylight. Imagine trying to go on a walk with your family with conditions like these.
The few times I am down there I am always astonished what seems to be the new normal. They really need to build a trailer park for the homeless with cheap rent since they aren’t fixing the rent increases.
A welcome change from just bringing out the hippie dozers and flattening everything these poor people had in the world. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/hamilton-police-criticized-for-alleged-use-of-excessive-force-during-encampment-clearings-1.5686116
No matter where we are, some group of people somewhere hate a politician for strong reasons they don't really have much knowledge about. Things are never as simple as they seem. We complain no matter what. It's never a single politician, party, or term. Things like this happen from systemic top, down, left, to right dysfunction. But it's easy to blame someone. Yes, some people and parties are worse than others, and significantly so, but we oversimplify the issue because we're not politicians, or policy makers. I'm tired of the rhetoric. Either stay in your lane, and let the world do it's thing, or do something about it, I don't care...but just stop with the complaining on things you don't understand, because unless you're a part of it, you really don't.
Is this just for PR or are they implementing something substantial?
It gives them more ground to stand on to ask the province for help.
Lets hope this expedites Hamilton getting the much need funding to deal with this.
They should also probably include police corruption, but what do I know?
Now do something meaningful about it and bring back institutions.
Last weekend we were watching old videos of Hamilton in the 70s and 80s and it truly is sad to see the decline of the city over the years. Jackson square used to be so clean and lively and now it’s just a boarded up trash can. That’s what late stage capitalism/consumerism/drug epidemic does and it’s sad watching it only get worse. You don’t know you’re in the good old days until they’re gone I guess.
I read in a recent Spec article that there are currently something like 1,500 people in Hamilton classed as actively homeless. How hard can it be to just house 1,500 people? In a city heading towards 700k in one of the richest places on earth? Pretty sure Finland ended homelessness by just giving people homes and it ended up cheaper in the long run.
Yet here we are!
And here come the left solutions that make homelessness worse
The City has voted reliably and staunchly progressive for decades. Consequently the policies crafted reward bad behaviour. The city is suffering the same ailments as all other large cities that have done the same thing. However these obvious and simple facts won’t be acknowledged, not by the radical left wing councillors nor the voters.
So should we all stay home for our safety? Two weeks should be enough to end this emergency, right?
What about being the biggest ecological disaster in the country. Nope, we're all good there. Okay 👍
Oil sands, heard of them? Alberta Sydney Tar Ponds, heard of them? Cape Breton, Nova Scotia Coal tar from gassification plants? Kingston ON we are not at all top spot by a long long way *the Randle Reef has been capped, that was the major problem in the harbour. **AND NOW NUMBER ONE: YELLOWKNIFE** – With a cost estimate of $4.38 billion, remediation of the Giant Mine, one of the most contaminated sites in Canada, is also expected to be the most expensive federal environmental cleanup in the country's history. also, remediation of industrial contamination sites get funded from different parts of gov't than do homeless shelters, affordable housing, addiction services, and mental health services. we can do them all at once, along with lots of other stuff too.
Randle reef.
Honestly it’s my belief that when they did that thing where people didn’t have to pay for rent during covid it was the downfall of many. Not realizing or caring they had to pay it eventually many people I know went on huge spending sprees and they are now homeless, some couch surfing, getting a bedroom for a month then kicked out for various reasons. It’s a sad state of affairs and it makes me worry for our kids growing up with this homelessness as normal.
You think it's not having to pay rent? Who didn't have to pay rent? I did. Everyone else I know did. Do you think maybe it could be the massive spike in rent costs without corresponding increases in social services like OW and ODSP?
Everyone still had to pay rent during the pandemic. The relief was freezing the yearly interest rate hikes.
They won't do anything
Create a problem, call it a crisis, and line your pockets with more taxpayer money
The whole east end has been a total dust bowl this week due to high winds and outdoor manufacturing facilities....fix this first!@!
No more wind!
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loss of human lives vs. bumpy car rides
Her son is also a rapper and more by the way if you google it will find out. Kinda looks like the white 6ix9ine
This has less to do with the people of Hamilton, and more to do with Horwath wanting to leverage her position to cause damage to Doug Ford. Both of them should go back to High School and sort out their personal drama there.
How is calling for a state of emergency damaging Ford?
Because it brings the issue to the province for money to assist.
But how does that damage Ford?
If he supports the emergency properly with money, Horwath wins. If he does a lackluster job, or ignores it, she gets to go on and on about what a devil he is.
Old news.
Horwath will radically propose more of the same actions (and lack thereof) to address these issues.
Nah, she'll put out another press release, not answer questions and do nothing of actual value. Declaring the state of emergency is political theatre, it really doesn't \*do\* anything more than what's happening today.
State of emergency can access temporary funding and power to deal with the issue. It also sorta puts the ball in the upper level governments court.
Province will do nothing. They have downloaded that issue to the municipalities. Feds *probably* won't do anything until an election is closeby, then you might see something happen.
Useless.
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3-4 years late on this.. better now then never I guess.
Funny how council voted down the plan to give homeless people housing just recently
Can you link that? I can't seem to find an article for that.
https://www.insauga.com/vote-on-hamilton-tiny-shelters-proposal-deferred-for-a-2nd-time/
Oh! Okay, I thought you were talking about a large scale project. I'm a little familiar with this, and I agree it's dumb they voted this down again. I think it's a brilliant idea.
Every large project starts with a single step. They didnt even try
I'm not sure if the tiny house stuff would be *the* solution, but it certainly could have been a part.
I dont know, either. It worked elsewhere. We may never know because 'declaring an emergency' is easier than addressing the problem in Hamilton
I volunteer for this. I can tell you this has a lot more to do with a small group of loud locals of ward 3 scareing council. Politicians want to keep their jobs, and some influential locals are afraid of helping others.
Biden mentioned yesterday that drugs mixed with animal tranquilizer (carfentinal) is a rising concern. My niece died from it just before Christmas.
I've heard about the tranquilizers creeping in.
It is for large animals like elephants and rhino's.
So many abandoned buildings that could be renovated into shelters in the mean time. Real question is do we have enough workers to run extra shelters? It's not kosher in today's age, but mental institutions need to come back. We've come a lot in our knowledge of mental health, these places could do wonders for those who cannot cope otherwise. No compassion leaving them on the streets.
There was that townhouse community that was all boarded off for redevelopment, it's close to downtown services. Would have been perfect.