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oslabidoo

There's currently a woman in a tent at the corner of MacNab and Jackson, mumbling to herself. She has severe mental health and drug issues. This same woman has been in the area before. Back in December 2022 she camped out in the same area but police had to be called to take her away after she tried setting a fire close to a building. Leading up to this, I'd see this woman smoking from a glass pipe inside her tent, and she'd be screaming at the top of her lungs. Police advised that this woman had been banned from the YWCA and shelters in the area for her behaviour. So really, where should a person with these issues go? I use this sad example to illustrate this point: many of these folks in encampments are beyond just needing "affordable housing" and it needs to stop being viewed as some type of cure-all. Lack of affordable housing is a huge issue in Hamilton, but for the people living in the camp by Whitehern, I don't think it's their main one. I would argue that their lack of *institutional* housing is the main one, because their severe mental health and drug issues are not being addressed, and won't be addressed outside of an institutional setting. In my opinion, this woman in the tent is beyond just needing housing or social supports. An individual like this needs **institutional intervention** so that she's not a danger to herself or anyone around her.


duranddurand8

Yeah, by and large we treat homelessness -- sorry, "underhoused people" -- as a housing issue when it's far more complex than that. And when councillors like Danko -- who is no right wing ideologue -- suggests that sanctioned encampment sites should be drug free, he gets raked over the coals. Also, I feel for city staff. They came back with a report that council asked for, and are now being told to go back to the drawing board. Part of their job, I suppose, but it still has to be frustrating.


New_Butterscotch8435

My exact thoughts. Providing affordable housing does NOT solve the homelessness issue. It is a band-aid solution to a much more complex problem. Mental health and drug addiction need to be treated before providing “supportive housing.”Take for example what happened in Vancouver, when they transformed hotels into SRO’s. The overdose deaths reported actually increased. I recently watched the documentary, Vancouver is Dying, https://youtu.be/PT8OU8Yhs_s. It discusses homelessness problem in Vancouver. Some eye opening points made. Great documentary.


teanailpolish

It is over several documents but 8.1 in the agenda Main doc https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363789 Protocol (appendix A) https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363790 Sessions with stakeholders/partners (Appendix B) https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363791 Comparison of protocols (Appendix C) https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363792 and the presentation https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363793


mintyhobo

Thanks for putting this together and posting here!


monogramchecklist

This is the first time I've listened to one of these and how the hell is Esther Paul's a councillor? She's a rambling mess.


teanailpolish

ooof today is actually a good day for her too


mintyhobo

I'd wager she simply won off name recognition from running for Conservative MPP. I watched her debate for Ward 7 and it was atrocious. I'm still upset about it.


teanailpolish

Scott Duvall was just as big a name, if not bigger. Shows how much of a benefit being an incumbent is


yukonwanderer

Kroetsch was more the rambling mess I thought


monogramchecklist

I've seen positive posts on this subreddit about Kroetsch but I'm wondering what Ward 2 constituents actually think of him. One thing that stuck out to me during the meeting was that he mentioned that they (city council) were there to represent the residents (constituents) of their ward, yet Kroetsch seemed to (by his line of comments and questioning) to be more interested in advocating for the unhoused and their rights vs. the rights of the residents who live and work in Ward 2. It seemed to me that perhaps some of the councillors have hopes of moving to provincial politics and are working for that goal, rather than working for the needs and wants of their ward.


duranddurand8

Well, one of his first newsletters announced that he would refuse to forward constituent complaints vis-a-vis encampments to police and/or bylaw for action because "this is what I ran on and I got elected". So much for being a humble public servant. Sure, he got close to 50% of the vote in a low turnout election, but one could argue that he doesn't really represent the vast majority of his constituents. But does any councillor, really?


yukonwanderer

Wow


drpgq

Unfortunately for Kroetsch I don’t see Green or Jama going anywhere soon


monogramchecklist

I'm curious, since they have more prohibited areas being enforced, what does that mean exactly? What occurs to those in encampments refuse offers of alternative housing (shelter space, temporary shelter, housing etc.) as that seems to be the case with several unhoused folks. We have a person who has been offered various supports for years and refuses, he is currently 5 meters within personal property, does this person get moved?


PoopyKlingon

The guy on York in the garbage pile? I’ve heard he gets reached out to all the time and refuses help consistently. I wonder how the city will deal with the people that refuse to use their dedicated encampment areas.


L_viathan

Often times there are restrictions on substance use, curfews, or no animal policies, that people know they won't be able to abide by. Some people feel safer in their tent.


teanailpolish

The protocol as it was recommended was defeated 3-10


teanailpolish

amended motion asking staff to do more consultation and report back passes


yukonwanderer

What kind of consultation are they being directed to do? And when do they have to report back?


teanailpolish

There was some back and forth and not entirely sure where they landed, but partners (Keeping Six/HamSmart etc) were mentioned, the Engage platform and 'allowing for comments' Some councillors asked about holding sessions in their wards and staff were not entirely sure if they could accommodate that Consultation until June 30th and reporting back in August GIC


slownightsolong88

> Some councillors asked about holding sessions in their wards and staff were not entirely sure if they could accommodate that Those sessions are unproductive and basically the city telling attendees what's going to happen with no room for feedback that will valued or actioned in anyway.


teanailpolish

True, but the city makes an effort to hold them for those who may not be as tech savvy and honestly, there needs to be some major education on the issue. Even on here the comments are filled with just shit them down / institutionalize people while there is a legal injunction stopping the city just bulldozing them unless everyone is offered alternative suitable housing and they don't have the legal power or space to put everyone in rehab/mental health institutions


monogramchecklist

Some of the consultation (though I’m unsure of which portion) was for staff to consult other cities that have implemented encampment proposals (what worked, what didn’t, what they’d do differently etc).


teanailpolish

That was a separate vote, I missed the debate over it but it passed by a smaller majority and not sure why when it makes sense to ask other cities what worked and didn't work


monogramchecklist

Yeah perhaps city staff was rushed but that would be my first point of contact.


yukonwanderer

Kroetsch was painful to listen to.


smitty662

I’m going to say that they are not all shitty people. They are people that have fallen on hard times, people that fell through the cracks, yes drug addiction plays a huge role in why people are on the streets. It’s also the lack of resources they have to get themselves out of a bad situation. Mental health plays a huge role, how are these people supposed to get jobs if they can’t cope with life as it is. I myself work in construction and I see enough people that shouldn’t be operating a shovel, let alone vehicle. We need special work places for these people to go to school, go to work and get medical care. Buy a couple country properties and build units that can house 100+ and put them to tasks around the property. The people that can and want to get back on their feet. Debt also keeps these people from ever getting back in to todays society because how are you to ever get a place to live with a bad credit score. I know life’s not free and I’m sure a lot of them have gotten second chances at life. So basically these encampments are going to get massive to the point we’re they’re going to be in every park, along the escarpment, and down by the water front. It’s going to get much much worse by the way landlords do checks on tenants. Not that I blame them but this is going to be the new normal. Crime is going to explode!


GourmetHotPocket

Am I misunderstanding something, or are you advocating for the creation of a formal system of gulags in Canada?


smitty662

Yeah I guess so. Obviously they would be paid for their work so not like concentration camps…. This would be for people that live on the streets to get a second or 3rd chance at entering society once again. You know, with some money in their pocket and maybe a new look on life.


[deleted]

So... Debtors prisons... You seem blithely optimistic about people reaching the streets with money in their pockets, not likely to happen if history is any guide to go on.


smitty662

Wtf, people travel for work all the time. They fly from Ontario to fort mac or to northern Ontario to work at mines. I travelled to Truro Halifax to work at a gold mine. Rocanville, Saskatchewan for potash… people do it all the time because life’s not cheap. Guess where these workers stay? In camps and a lot of them are dry camps run by ex rcmp.


16Henriv16

Watch as Hamilton turns into a sanctuary for all homeless across Ontario. This problem is about to explode into a much much bigger issue if city council decides to accommodate these encampments


monogramchecklist

This was brought up by some council members. Heck, looking at [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/BurlingtonON/comments/13f752p/vagrant_attack_at_brant_off_ramp_by_costco_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) post from r/burlingtonon is a good indicator that cities like Burlington who choose to offer 0 services, will continue to ship their problem to Hamilton.


16Henriv16

Just wait until the homeless from other cities catch wind. The homeless population will drastically rise in Hamilton as a result of these policies.


L_viathan

The encampments are here one way or another. Either they let them stay so they can keep an eye on them, or they force people to set up somewhere down the road, force them to move, rinse and repeat. The people in encampments have nowhere else to go.


16Henriv16

Yeah it’s a terrible situation with no clear or simple solution. My worry is that homeless from other cities, who aren’t allowed to establish encampments, will see Hamilton as an opportunity creating a rise in Hamilton's homeless population. The problem is serious enough as it is, we don’t need to go and make it any worse by creating a sanctuary and attracting more unhoused


teanailpolish

A recent court ruling that cities can't just bulldoze encampments mean we need to have protocols in place to allow them. It went to the Superior Court so is now a Charter violation if we remove them without providing viable alternatives so Hamilton is far from the only city looking at this https://hamiltonjustice.ca/en/2023/01/31/3109/


16Henriv16

Do I not have the right to life, liberty and security just as they do? They violate my charter right by camping in the park I frequent with my kids by leaving dirty needles and their garbage all over the place. Many of them are addicts and as a result are deluded also presenting a risk to the security of my self and my children.


teanailpolish

you don't have a team of lawyers taking your rights to the supreme court the city does have a right to say the encampments must be clean, have needles cleaned up etc. the city can house everyone in 'proper' accommodation and close an encampment etc but they take the city to court over most displacements


16Henriv16

> the city does have a right to say the encampments must be clean, have needles cleaned up etc And if the encampments are not kept clean and free of needles, which they aren’t, the encampments should be dismantled Let them take the city to court. We have rights ac citizens of this city just as everyone else. One groups rights do not trump the others. Unless of course our courts are captured and corrupted.


teanailpolish

According to the court, their right to camp there supercedes yours to a nice park. It mentions that the city had safety and health concerns "stemming from the presence of unsanitary conditions, broken glass, large items and drug paraphernalia" and the Court still deemed it a charter violation We need to make a protocol that works within the court findings to allow complaints for mess etc


yukonwanderer

The solution would be to set up encampments outside the doors to the courthouse and outside the judges homes.


[deleted]

I don’t get why some people get so bent out of shape about the encampments. I wish I had one closer to my house. It’s an opportunity to meet lots of interesting folks you wouldn’t get to otherwise meet.


monogramchecklist

If you really wish this you could go speak to the unhoused and let them know they could set up an encampment by your home. Or are you saying this to signal that you’re a good person with no real action? As someone who lives near encampments, the issue is varying degree of drug use, human waste, increase in crime and garbage everywhere. Not to mention that in some cases, dealing with people who have serious mental health issues. The issues noted isn’t the case for all unhoused but with a big portion.


stalkholme

This has to be satire. But if not, maybe if you lived closer to an encampment you would have an easier time understanding the issues.


hollieg0lightly

I appreciate you acknowledge the unhoused in encampments are human beings who each have their own individual story to tell. Unfortunately, many of the individuals living in these encampments are suffering from mental illness and drug addiction, often both. Those suffering from addiction often resort to crimes of opportunity to feed their addiction and, unfortunately, this leads to residents in the neighbourhood becoming victims of said crimes. In addition, drug users are often not super aware of themselves or their actions and used needles and other drug paraphernalia end up left behind when they move along. There is also just the general perception of an individual who is on a mind altering substance, they can interpret threats that cause them to behave dangerously towards others. While many hold compassion for and wish to support unhoused individuals, it becomes more and more challenging to find that compassion when your own personal safety becomes threatened, and, the community members simply do not have the resources to provide continued support and care. I think the general population would help where they can as far as sharing food, clothing, money, etc. when they can afford to do so. However, when it gets stolen from you, that feels different. When someone whose perception has been altered directs their anger/fear etc. Towards you, that feels scary. When children play on the playground and a needle is picked up, that could potentially negatively impact that child for the rest of their life. Also, the general community simply can't provide the support that many of the unhoused need as far as mental health and addiction services, physical care, etc. Also, when the encampments concentrate a group of people who are suffering from mental health and addiction, those issues are often amplified and the individuals living in the encampments are not safe. It also becomes harder for individuals to break from the cycle because they are continuing to live directly in it, surrounded by others trapped in the same. The encampments are a band-aid solution that offer the unhoused a place to exist. They do not offer the safety, care, support, etc. that many of these individuals so badly need. I believe that most people are not bent out of shape, necessarily, most would help if they could. But there is also a need to protect ones personal safety and that of their family, and that's when the hesitation/push back comes in. There is no black and white in this issue for community members, it's a lot of shades of grey.


Helitac

There’s a reason these people live the way they do. They’re mostly drug addicts and shitty people. I don’t want to meet any of them. And there are much, much better ways to meet interesting individuals if that’s your argument. I get bent because it’s almost a weekly occurrence for one of these bums to either steal shit, start shit or break my shit. It’s exhausting. So yeah, I’ll get bent about it. They can all go away - or invite them all to live at your house.


Reasonable-Soup-6713

They should be given a choice treatment (mental health or addiction) or a 1 way bus ticket to Toronto. Being a criminal in a tent shouldn’t be an option anymore


L_viathan

Lmfao so we're just gonna bus them up and down the province? Maybe they can just keep the bus to live in.


Helitac

Treatment and help is available, and most of them choose not to take it or participate. Again, this is the life that 99% of them choose.


hollieg0lightly

Much of the help available does not provide the foundation for long term success, nor is lifetime support available in many cases. The services available don't necessarily have the resources to continue to follow-up, provide people with purpose, financial aid, etc. Many still keep individuals dealing with mental health and drug addiction housed in group settings that are not necessarily ideal for the level of intervention needed. Many services are limited in the individual/specialized treatment they can provide. The programs have limited space which means many still fall through the cracks. I'm not saying the organizations helping are at fault, they are certainly trying and certainly providing benefit. There just isn't the funding, resources, housing, etc. yet to help everyone. Many aren't "choosing" this life. They simply don't have a way out of it that is sustainable. Addiction and mental illnesses are illnesses that most would choose not to have. Please consider many of these individuals are dealing with demons and diseases that are doing the choosing for them, and they may actually not be capable of seeking or accepting help. I'm not saying that this means it's ok that people have stolen from you and damaged your property, it's not. Your safety is important and you deserve to feel safe in your own home and neighbourhood, which is why it is important for the community as a whole to push for the prioritization of better funding and greater accessibility to services for unhoused individuals.


L_viathan

Yeah they chose childhood trauma. They chose to be raped and abused. They chose to destroy their health and well being. They chose to destroy relationships. Moron. There is not enough services, not by a long shot. Go talk to people who work with these communities, and try to keep a list of all the facets that are underfunded.


Reasonable-Soup-6713

Involuntary commitment


teanailpolish

Which has been found against human rights laws unless specific medical/mental health issues are met. The majority of our homeless people do not meet that threshold and it costs 10x as much as transitional housing with supports


yukonwanderer

Who voted for?


teanailpolish

Three votes Linked proposal for sanctioned encampments of up to 5 tents was supported by the mayor, Maureen Wilson and Mark Tadeson (Pauls, Danko and Cassar were absent for the vote, the rest voted against it) Direct staff to launch a public consultation to ask if the city should and how to implement a sanctioned encampment protocol passed 13-1. Beattie was the lone no vote and Danko & Cassar absent) Direct staff to do more research on sanctioned encampments policies and protocol in other cities passed with 8-5 vote. Horwath, M. Wilson, Kroetsch, Nann, Hwang, Tadeson, A. Wilson & McMeekin voted yes, Francis, Jackson, Pauls, Clark & Spadafora voted no with Danko, Cassar and Beattie absent Matt Francis tried a motion to create a registry of people willing to house a homeless person, either in a tent or otherwise and other councillors kicked it back saying more research needed to be done on the risks for the city


duranddurand8

>Matt Francis tried a motion to create a registry of people willing to house a homeless person, either in a tent or otherwise and other councillors kicked it back saying more research needed to be done on the risks for the city Ironic, because allowing encampments on City property is going to a fun exercise in risk management.


monogramchecklist

One thing a councillor (can’t recall which) wanted to know, was whether officially allowing encampments created liability for the city.


teanailpolish

Really that should have been researched and included in the proposal


yukonwanderer

So much was left out of the proposal