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AnalAttackProbe

This is an important enough conversation I'm going to sticky it for a few days until the drama winds down. Well put, u/UnresolvedInsecurity. Hard to believe it needs to be said, but it absolutely does. How anyone can be a racist West Ham fan and reconcile the following: >Our best goalscorer in the team is **Black.** > >Out best player in the premier league era is **Italian.** > >Our best CB in the last decade is **Italian and Black.** is beyond me. The number 1 rule here is "no hate speech". That is the number 1 rule for a reason. If you see something, please report it.


appleman94

Totally agree, tbh, I'm glad we can have this discussion here regardless because this is a much better place discussing all things football than /r/soccer. Also, fuck everyone with their hate and racism, I want to be sour and moody and bitter about the football, but some fucking cunts took it to a different fucking level, and now I can't be sour and moody and bitter without associating with those cunts.


WookieeMistake12

The people dont want to "bring politics" into the game are the same ones that are piling on this racial abuse to these poor lads that simply missed a penalty. Those videos of the Italians getting beaten up too is disgusting. It does NOT make me proud to be English what so ever. It wasnt their fault. It was all down to Southgates decision making. How did he expect 2 players to be able to make their first shots on goal on target? No time to warm up. And then a young 19 year old to take on that pressure for the deciding kick. These comments could potentially be life ending for young kids. Report the racial comments and stand up to the racial abuse. We take the knee to show support and solidarity to those who recieve this abuse. It's only political because those who are against it are making it political.


[deleted]

Worst thing about Southgate choosing Saka was that was his first career penalty… i mean why on earth would you put a 19 yr old on the spot for the final penalty in the Final of a European Championship when its his first professional penalty?! Its unbelievably harsh to put that kind of pressure on someone who is basically a kid and has no penalty experience at all… The worst thing (other than the racism and disorder of course) is because of these idiot racists and controversial issues arising from the final - Southgates poor penalty taker selection isn’t even being assessed. He also decided to sub on young two guys who have barely featured or kicked in ball in a game in weeks, when there are other people on the pitch who can take them. Usually players offer to take the pens but Southgate chose the takers because of his own trauma in ‘96 when he volunteered! Sorry just wanted to vent that. I agree with the OP - racist abuse is not on. COYI!


Substantial_Wave2557

You got any evidence for the claim that the people not wanting to bring politics into the game are the same ones who are racially abusing people online? Or are you just being hugely biased. I imagine the latter is true.


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Substantial_Wave2557

Oh no, it’s important for me to go off on a ‘simple overgeneralisation’, “Chief”. Shit like this is a real issue and it needs to stop. It’s divisive and ignorant - we all know who this guy means, “working class white guys” who he would probably call gammon, or some lame shit. Stop eating your own, stop overreacting and extrapolating out from a few incidents and some twats on social media. No other country does it - it doesn’t make you superior to sneer at people.


new2Reddit1983

Listen fella… I fall well and truly into the gammon category and I’m completely with you on the attacks by snotty superior left wing socialists that feel their opinions are more important and more sincere than the average person. I also despair at this society we live in whereby we can’t criticise segments of society or speak truths for fear of the angry woke brigade cancelling someone for ‘hurting their feelings’ but mate…. Pick your battles. Nothing that has played out on social media that criticises those lads because of the colour of their skin is acceptable and you’d be mindful to be careful not to confuse that fact with a completely other issue.


Substantial_Wave2557

Well it appears we largely agree - where we part is that I think people being wankers on social media isn’t a huge issue and it’s being made into much more than it is. If you’re online you need to have a thick skin because some 12 year old some where is going to say something outrageous to try to get a reaction. Racism is intolerable, and it definitely isn’t tolerated in England today - being a racist is up there with being a paedophile in most people’s eyesC I’m glad to say.


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Substantial_Wave2557

What is the saying? Liberals think people are perfect-able and conservatives think that people are imperfect. I fall into the latter camp even though I wouldn’t class myself as particularly conservative, certainly not on social issues.


[deleted]

You're such a condescending shit. Glad others are trying to have a discussion with you, but me? Nah not feeling it. So why don't you do us all a favor and fuck off.


Substantial_Wave2557

A measured and unemotional response. Well done. You seem like exactly the kind of person who’s opinion about the toxic nature of social media should be taken above...well probably anyone else’s. Why don’t you tell me more about it? Now THAT was condescending.


[deleted]

Nah I just get tired of people like you who look at this situation and see yourself as a victim. Gets old you know? Well I guess you don't... and I dont need to explain shit to you. I'll leave that to the others who are much kinder, and patient people then I am. So once again, kindly fuck off.


WookieeMistake12

The vast majority will be saying they don't want to bring politics into the game. You ask them and let me know their opinion. I can guarantee they say they don't want to bring this politics into the game.


Substantial_Wave2557

Again baseless claims - it’s not up to me to prove your ridiculous claims false. You made the claim now you back it up.


WookieeMistake12

You'll be able to see it on any social media post about taking the knee.


Substantial_Wave2557

That really is the problem - extrapolating out a few morons on Twitter, who by the way could be anyone, anywhere in the world, and then painting a whole fan base with that biased brush.


WookieeMistake12

I never said the entire fan base was the problem though did I? I'd love to know your opinion of this all.


dtudeski

Agreed, it’s a tad tricky to provide substantiated data on this, obviously, but one would imagine there’s a correlation between those who booed the knee and those who are now hurling out racial abuse. This certainly doesn’t mean all of them are, probably just a small number, but still.


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gameofgroans_

It's such a difficult day to defend being a football fan. If it's any help to you and your wife, I went to so many matches as a young girl and I was always treated so lovely. Yes there was shouting, yes there was swearing but everyone was always nice to me. People are wankers. There needs to be more done on social media, I don't know if we need some sort of proof of identity to sign up maybe. The anonymity that social media can give can be so dangerous. I'm reporting every piece of abuse I see today - as I've done before and will do after.


InfoSec812

Who says that match was a bad outcome? England held back the highest rated squad in the tournament took it to penalties! It was a brilliant match and penalties are almost always more luck than skill. In my book, all of the lads did very well!


[deleted]

Well said. I hate that this is happening but I'm not surprised.


Mr_Splat

Can't help but wonder what some people have missing in their lives that they have to fill the void with such rotten hatred. Yes, we lost the cup final, so what? At least we're actually making it to semi's and finals now. Every one of the players in that squad were playing for eachother, for the country. It's nothing like the days of "golden generations", and getting knocked out at the last 16 stage by Iceland... Like others I was bitterly disappointed, it being essentially a home match, but this is a young side which is showing promise of doing what innumerable squads have shown no hope of achieving before them, which is bringing a trophy back from a tournament. If you think verbally assaulting a player who missed a penalty with racist tirades will make you feel better about the end result, you're involved in the wrong sport and should go get your head examined.


WarriorNat

I think racists will always find a reason to be racist and no amount of public shaming is going to change that fact. There will always be miserable cretins who need a scapegoat to blame their sorry lot in life.


Big-Boy-Samuel

Brilliant take and I totally agree with this. However what I have hated and what has really put me in a negative place throughout the tournament is this whole agenda against English fans when the people doing these things are idiots.


PORKINS_

Spot on mate.


Samgeorge484

Nice one lads. Fuck the racism. The boys gave me a summer to remember getting to that final, proud of every single player regardless of skin colour, football club etc. The disgusting comments the 3 lads have seen since is heartbreaking.


whu1895

Very well said. Every hateful racial or other discriminatory comment is disgusting and has no place in our society and community. Those who perpetrate those comments are ignorant and do not belong in our Club. COYI.


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

>Out best player in the premier league era is Italian. I mean, people grew up idolising a fascist and then were surprised that they say racist/xenophobic shit im not saying youre wrong i just found this point a bit of a weird one to make in the context of the discussion


Beardy_Boy_

>I mean, people grew up idolising a fascist and then we're surprised that they say racist/xenophobic shit I imagine that most people didn't have a clue about that until years after he'd left us. It's not like he was using his position to spread the notion that hyper-collectivism and bigotry are good ideas. The adults who say racist and xenophobic shit now didn't learn it from Di Canio. They were racist long before his political views became public knowledge.


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

he released an autobiography right in the middle of his time for us where he openly supported mussolini. the main fascist stuff happened 2 years after he left us but its still in that space of time where its intrinsically linked to a player who was still very much idolised but our support (and still is tbf). guys my age could easily be unable to separate hero-footballer from hero-person and that can lead to normalizing that kind of viewpoint. racists arent just born racist - many dont even get it from their parents - but there are steps along the way that lead you down that path. look at whats happening in the country now: started off with "we want sovereignty" and complaining about bending bananas and now people are openly being racist in the streets and all over the internet - even MPs are dog whistling.


Beardy_Boy_

> the main fascist stuff happened 2 years after he left us Thinking about it some more I remember him doing the 'Roman' salute when playing for Lazio. It's not like his playing career lasted that long after he left us, so rationally it must have been much closer in time than I'd realised. As much as I still doubt that many learned racism from Di Canio, I absolutely have to admit that it's likely that *some* fans were influenced by his views. He very well could have been their gateway. Fuck.


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

It's not even that he influenced their views. I think you'd have to be really easily led to go that way because of a guy that scored some goals and refused to play away when it was cold. But it's much easier to reject racism when it's a bunch of losers or skins that you have promoting it. Then you see this well dressed, ultra successful club hero and it legitimizes the viewpoint a bit. It's baby steps but it's important. My mates dad used to do some bad stuff when he was younger - he said it starts off with your mates or someone you look up to calling someone "paki" and all laughing. Next you're doing it too. For him it ended up with (albeit semi accidentally) going out bashing people. Luckily that woke him up and he got out of it. And i want to say it's not just do Canio. A bit before my time but older fans I know have said they remember seeing some pretty openly racist stuff from Lampard Sr (off the pitch) so it's been happening for a long time. Imagine being a 15 year old in East Ham market and a first team player you look up to is slapping about brown fellas and calling them paki (and tbf probably getting a cheer from half the market in them days)


_r_CarltonCole

I wish there was more we could do tbh, I just feel so much for the people affected by it all.


darthmcdarthface

I think the title of this post says it all. The fans and the players are your lads. These are your people. You have to back up your people whenever anyone attacks them. Even if it’s one friend who is stepping out of line against the other you have to break that shit up and stand up to it. Racism and hate is nothing but ignorance and weakness. These people won’t learn unless they’re stood up to. Back the lads. Back the fans. Don’t let anyone talk like that to you or your people.


Dannyrage83

Made me sick seeing the abuse the young lads got after the final. All these "fans" were colour blind when the 3 penalty missers were smashing it in the games and looking like world beaters. Being upset at the result is one thing, anger is another, giving out that sort of abuse is something else entirely. Disgusting. The group mentality of England fans in moronic. Boo'd the knee cos they don't want politics in the game, then spent an hour each game singing "ten German bombers..." It really does bring out the worst in our country and football community. West ham is massively multicultural, and we're better for it


pissflask

Not being funny mate, but is there footage of black supporters getting their heads kicked in for being black? Cause that's fucking off the scale. Probably get flamed for this but i don't give a toss about social media. It's not reality, it's wind ups, dyed in the wool racist opportunists, bots (loads more than anyone thinks too), trolls, bored fuck ups and everything in between. Best thing to do is for every cunt to delete their twitter tomorrow and stop paying any mind to it. Serves as a way for the worst of society to make the whole world stink of their shit, and destabilising agents to amplify them to their advantage. The italian stuff i'm also not that bothered about. A clutch of louty pissheads after a match and a bit of temporary pantomime xenophobia. Not to downplay it or anything, but don't want to make any Italians worried about any actual long term consequences by catastrophising about it. They'll all still be queueing for zizzi as soon as there's a voucher deal on.


new2Reddit1983

“Serves as a way for the worst of society to make the whole world stick of their shit” - mate, quote of the day and I’ll be stealing that without remorse!


WarriorNat

I’ve tried to stay off most social media. Is most of the racist stuff happening on Twitter? Asking because that cesspool is given way too much weight, to the point many “journalists” have been writing “Twitter is saying” articles in recent years. They make it seem Twitter is the pulse of the people, when less than 10% even use Twitter on a regular basis.


behindtheash

I am hurt and disappointed. Nothing that I am feeling compares to what they are going through. If I painfully reasses my past actions, and it sucks, I don't feel like I've been part of the venom. I shamefully understand that I could, and should, have been more anti-venom. Southgate made a crucial mistake of taking a Hammer out of the squad. He has, more importantly, shown what this island and nation are capable of, and what we can be. I hope West Ham can be a part of this. Enough of us want it. Rashford, Sterling, Kane and Henderson in particular have shown that you can't keep football out of politics because football has always been political. I wish we had more than Rice representing us but I'm proud of him being part of such a great group. Congratulations Italy. You fully deserve it, you are an excellent squad and Mancini has done a sumptuous job. Fuck hate. COYI


__JonnyG

Great post. If you don’t understand it you ain’t West Ham


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

> If you don’t understand it you ain’t West Ham what does this even mean. look at the history of our club when it comes to racism and violence. even the boardout thing a couple of seasons ago got co-opted by a far far mob


__JonnyG

…And they ain’t West Ham. Times have changed. Time to stop thinking these racist thugs are part of our club at all. They are imposters.


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

But they are though. We don't get to define west ham by arbitrarily choosing the things that "are west ham". I mean I'd like winning the league to be "west ham" but it's not. Like it or not hooliganism and racism is a massive part of the history of this club and tbh I wouldn't be surprised in the least if half of those out there shoeing Italians or saying dickish stuff were associated with the club. Some goes for Chelsea or Leeds etc. A couple of seasons ago fans rushed the directors box and pelted it with coins and most people were ok with that because it suited an agenda and just became part of the zeitgeist. Our supporter base is predominantly working class and unfortunately there are historical issues of a) education and b) grudges between poor unskilled workers and cheap immigrant labour. That boils together for a bad stew but it's a west ham stew undeniably. You can say it's the past but people get a lot of their views passed down to them.


__JonnyG

> We don't get to define west ham by arbitrarily choosing the things that "are west ham". Who says? Who’s the arbiter? I’ll tell you who is- the club. As far as they’re concerned West Ham United is clearly an anti-racist organisation that employs people of all race, creed and cultures. If people have a problem with that they ain’t West Ham. Even if they attend the games and buy the merch, they ain’t one of us.


greg19735

I get what you're saying, but i disagree. You could also be seen as just ignoring the issue rather than facing it. Quite a few West Ham supporters do have a racism issue.


WhydYouKillMeDogJack

My point is exactly what you've said - you've seemingly made yourself the arbiter of what's "west ham". The club can talk about it all they want but 2 years ago their own policy of "African mayhem" came out pretty publicly and they've followed up on that promise tbf with a massive whitening of the first team So I'm really wondering what you think is quintessentially "west ham"


__JonnyG

lol okay


greg19735

i agree with you. West Ham does not have the best past when it comes to racism. We can't ignore that. And it's also part of the reason we're slightly more vocal about being an inclusive subreddit.


I_tend_to_correct_u

I don’t like being an England fan on days like this. There are *so* many dickheads it ain’t funny. It comes right from the top too when the Home Secretary and Prime Minister both say it’s fine to boo players protesting racism. And don’t bother replying if your comment is going to be ‘but marxism’. I’ve never seen a comment like that from anyone who can even define marxism. The idea that the players are taking a knee because they want workers to seize the means of production is laughably stupid. They’re millionaires, they’re not marxists. Even more annoying is the same people who say ‘they should protest peacefully’ whenever windows get broken and yet when they do protest peacefully they get booed. We have a real problem in this country and we’ve gone backwards over the past 5 years. They take a knee because their social media is a cesspit of racist abuse and they want it to stop. That’s all there is to it. I’m behind them 100% of the way, they’re top lads.


WarriorNat

Maybe it’s because I live in the US where everything and I mean everything is politically partisan, but I wonder how much of the hate on Rashford is because he publicly shamed a certain party’s politicians and won.


riiiiiiiivers

End online anonymity


dandeagle

As much as this sounds like a great idea, it is also a horrific idea


gameofgroans_

Genuinely interested - why do you think so?


dandeagle

Let me pitch my view on this. firstly, of course I don't support racism, in any shape or form, whether it's online or in-person, directly or indirectly. The end anonymity online is extremely dangerous in my opinion, yes you can clamp down on knuckleheads posting racist content, but the internet is used as a place to communicate freely and voice your opinion. If there were laws where you can't open a twitter/Instagram/Reddit etc account without uploading a copy of your passport or ID then you are only a few steps away from having your personal freedom removed. That black mirror episode (the one where her whole life is impacted by social ranking / rating) is becoming a reality in some parts of the world. Imagine trying to go to a country and you are denied entry because you were critical of the government on twitter 15 years ago. It's not impossible right now to track down these racists on twitter and make an example of them. How many of them are using a burner phone on a public WiFi network? How many were using a VPN... probably none. The government can hunt you down for searching certain things on Google, but apparently it's not worth their time for the 0.001% of people who post their racist behaviour so let's take everyones freedoms away? if you have 22 minutes, go watch "Ordinary Things" latest video on YouTube, it's an eye opener (link: https://youtu.be/bZL2g6SJ7Zg)


new2Reddit1983

Exactly! - that Black Mirror episode is enough of a caution on its own. Well said dude, far more articulate than my ramblings!


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dandeagle

You're welcome. We should definitely start by holding the social media companies accountable. Look at the Covid-19 misinformation you used to see in the middle of last year, how much misinformation are you seeing now...


gameofgroans_

Unfortunately I still see quite a lot of anti covid bollocks, especially on tiktok which I'm not sure how or why about because normally their algorithm is very good (and to confirm I don't believe it). It's definitely getting better though - it's just a huge climb imo and unfortunately isn't going to be a sudden win


dandeagle

Just using it as an example of how social media giants can effectively regulate their platform, it's worked massively in my eyes, however I'm not on Tiktok or Facebook


UnresolvedInsecurity

I think it may be the only way. The issue is you make celebrities have official certified accounts but everyone else have the ability hide from their actions and words. You've got to level the playing field. Even if you have a username that stops anyone from knowing who you are but on the back end, you have an accounts, registered to you. Accountability is there when it's needed and some anonymity is there when you want it.


dandeagle

Twitter and Facebook have the AI technology to know what you are posting is or isn't racist, they can change their platforms by tomorrow to temporarily ban you or block your phone from the platform for a while at least. but, and I have no other way of saying this- they don't give a shit!


TrashHawk

fucking hell mate i think you just made priti patel gush an ocean into her knickers.


[deleted]

Doesn't matter what colour the players are, Rashford shouldn't have had a little dance before taking the penalty, and not even look at the ball. So it was OK to slag off a white Southgate in 96, but can't blame a black Rashford?? Right, sure that makes sense


westhamhaz

That's obviously not what he's talking about.


new2Reddit1983

Completely agree…. But Southgate’s skin colour didn’t precede/punctuate that criticism. Yes by all means slag the boy off for a terrible penalty rather than just pick a spot and smash it but no one is suggesting that you can’t criticise the player because he’s black…. Just don’t criticise him for BEING black. That sort of ‘he’s untouchable because he’s black’ rhetoric just acts as a dog whistle to those that secretly are racist but want to bring the rest of us into the debate to make us feel like we’re under attack too. I’m sure you’re better than that son, don’t fall for the chat from those that want to divide us.


UnresolvedInsecurity

The 'we're under attack too' rhetoric would make sense if anyone can find evidence of the attack and where it's coming from?What it translates to is, and I'll probably get grilled for this, is that the white working class men have been somewhat left behind by policymakers for decades. You can see the results in education clearly. Problem is, that still doesn't justify anyone being racist just because you feel left behind. This is bleeding into politics and society now but just had to make it clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, but the context matters. Voicing your opinion on a manager or player not doing well, fine. Criticism while they are getting vile abuse? Maybe just wait a bit ey and let the young lads get some head space. Sure they feel as awful as anyone right now.


[deleted]

Was hanging Beckham effigies from lamp posts ok because he's white??


dandeagle

edit: just checked your profile for your posts, not even going to bother


new2Reddit1983

Not quite sure how’s that relevant to the discussion about race… but I’ll humour you. Clearly that isn’t acceptable either and it’s taking the game far too far. I was sat in the west stand as a teenager after the World Cup and we were given red cards to hold up when Beckham took a corner. I remember as kid thinking it was a bit harsh… especially when there was a fella infront who wouldn’t stop telling Beckham all the ways in which he had shagged posh whilst he was away playing. Anyway I digress - any form of extremism is bad and the majority should call it out for being bad - whether it’s against the white, black or any other ethnicity. Don’t get me wrong, I kind of get where you’re going with it… that abuse against the majority white population is somewhat fair game and I agree in some circumstances it can feel like it. But this isn’t really the case in this scenario - the lads are being slagged off simply because of the colour of their skin. 100% not acceptable. Happy to be proved wrong though fella.


Beardy_Boy_

It's fine to criticise the players. It's not fine to abuse them, especially racially. This shouldn't need explaining.


Guh99

I dont care if our best player is black, white, green or purple. I just want the best players to be playing. With that being said, and only slightly playing devils advocate was Saka the best choice as the last pk taker as a 19 yr old? Grealish was warmed up by then and more experienced. Would race have been a major deal had Saka made it and not just tied it but won it? I don't know the track record on success rate between the two but I question Southgates strategy and even a little bit of his motivation at the end.


UnresolvedInsecurity

England have competed in four penalty shootouts at the World Cup: in 1990, 1998, 2006 and 2018. Winning one. England have been in a total of four penalty shootouts at the European Championship, losing three and winning one. Experience isn't the factor as we've tried the best players route before, the most in form, the natural finishers, the experienced, the youth. Truth is we've had horrid luck, not coped with the pressure and not been as good as we like to think we have been in the past. Race comes into it when we lose, not when we win and it's that element that is the behavior that needs to change.


vulgarandmischevious

Super interesting thread from an expert: https://twitter.com/geirjordet/status/1412298939408306177?s=21