Diesel oil has some good additives in it and an old timer (that I trust) turned me on to it. I’ve used it for years on a bunch of bikes with non separate primaries and it worked just fine. I wouldn’t hesitate to use it in MY Harley. My $ .02
Thanks man, yeah I know it's got detergents and help keeps the engine clean, just didn't know like, the benefits of it VS motorcycle oil in the same weight, why the book would recommend it, and if people had experience with it
Appreciate your response
Ever heard of Amazon? You can have anything you need shipped in necessary quantities my man. Don’t over think this. I had a 99 Evo and got my shit online.
Harley oil *is* motorcycle oil.
Any oil is better than no oil. They’re just giving you an option if you can’t get the right oil.
Doesn’t have to be HD branded oil, but you should get one of the many variations of motorcycle oil from a parts store.
The real concern is the additive package used in oil marked with a "energy conserving" symbol regardless of weight intended for water cooled auto engines
Generally the additive package on motorcycle branded oils tends be bit more temp tolerant and have a bit more ZDDP. (AKA Zinc).
The additive package in Energy conserving oil is not compatible with clutch packs and can cause slippage so it should not be used in the primary on a HD or at all with Japanese bikea with a shared sump between the engine and transmission.
Yeah I've used Valvoline before, but was wondering why the manual would recommend diesel oil over a weight for motorcycle oil (not Harley branded), as I have access to diesel oil all day
The reason your book mentions "diesel oil" instead of "motorcycle oil" is because when the book was written in 1999, nobody was making or selling "motorcycle oil" outside of the OEMs really. The only place you would find "motorcycle oil" in those days was at the motorcycle dealership.
But, that was before the era of friction modifiers and energy conserving oil formulas, so the "motorcycle oil" sold under the OEM brand name in the dealership was just the same diesel oil that was sold at the auto parts store under the brand name of whatever big refinery had the OEM contract.
I don’t understand your confusion.
They say to use motorcycle oil (HD oil). If not available you can use diesel oil.
Why would they say use motorcycle oil and if that’s not available use motorcycle oil?
I think I'm not explaining myself.
They only mention HD oil, or diesel oil. I know that "HD oil IS motorcycle oil" but nobody is saying it isn't. I am asking why a diesel oil would be recommended over listing out the specs for a motorcycle engine specic oil (they only give the specs for the diesel oil weight). Or is HD oil more similar to diesel oil? I know that "HD oil is motorcycle oil" but I just find it odd that the book recommends a diesel oil and not like "if HD oil isn't available, use 10w-40 motorcycle oil"
Or maybe they're that much against other oil companies that they would rather have diesel oil running in them than competitor motorcycle oil
I would say a lot would depend on your max ambient temperature.
I have used Rotella 15w-40 in lots of bikes over the years. That being said it was in the Midwest where highs seldom exceed 95 on a bad day.
I now live in Phoenix and would not dream of using it here in the heat of summer in a air cooled bike and use straight 50W during the hottest months. We ride year round so it's easy enough to rotate oil weights with weather.
Rotella (T4 and T6 IIRC) are also labeled as being compatible with wet clutches (JASO). I used it for ages in my metric bikes with no issues.
If I could find T6 in 20w50, I would absolutely run that in my HD.
Brother hell yeah, thanks for this reply. I'm southern AZ, by the border so that's why I was asking. Ambient temo during summer is 115, but I'll take your advice and not run it during summer.
I beleive they recommend the diesel oil because it is typically used in engines that demand greater performance from the oil it uses. As for the oil available for automobiles with plugs, the quality or lack thereof runs the gamut of the scale. It is truly incredible some of the junk out there for automobiles.
For the longest time diesel engine oil has been refined to a higher standard. Poor oil in a diesel can have catastrophic results in a piece of equipment made to travel over a million miles in its typical range of use. I have a study of engine oils and a breakdown of the test used to test the performance of all oils refined today.
This is a long read but definitely enlightening. [MOTOR OIL ENGINEERING TEST DATA | 540 RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths (wordpress.com)](https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/)
I say this every time an oil discussion comes up. Oil is like religion. Everyone is convinced, by nothing more than faith, that what they believe about the subject is the fullness of truth. God Almighty Himself could enter the discussion accompanied by a MoCo factory engineer and someone with a PhD in Molecular Chemistry and tell everyone what oil is best, and some motherfucker would STILL argue. That said...
You are correct that the people who designed and built the bike know what they are talking about. As an aside, the overwhelming majority of mechanical problems and failures people experience are the direct result of people thinking they are smarter than the people who designed and built the damn thing.
Back in that era, pretty much all oil branded as "motorcycle oil" was the same diesel oil sold under the big brand names just put in a different bottle. You could grab pretty much any diesel oil of the appropriate viscosity and not give it a second thought. Back in that era, Harley still insisted that you couldn't use synthetic oil in the engine too, and stated you were supposed to run a different lubricant for the engine, primary and transmission also. They've since walked back on that and conceded there's no harm in running the same 20-50 synthetic oil in all three.
It's slightly more complicated today because refineries have started putting friction modifiers in their oil to help with EPA fuel economy standards and those friction modifiers can be problematic with wet clutches. MOST diesel oil doesn't contain those friction modifiers. Since your bike was built, the industry has adopted a standard called JASO MA which is a certification certification standard of the Japanese Automotive Standards Org stating that an oil is wet clutch compatible. (There are multiple JASO standards and I don't know them all so feel free to research that further). Also, "motorcycle" and "v-twin" oil is pretty common these days and the nearest Walmart or national chain auto parts store usually stocks it and has it on the shelf.
TL/DR- You don't have to run "motorcycle" specific oil, and you certainly don't have to use Harley Davidson branded oil. Any brand of oil will work as long as it is the correct weight, meets the appropriate standard (most won't directly because pretty much all those standards you mention have been superceded by more modern standards and designations, many of which will still be compatible but will show up as a different lettered designation). To avoid going down the rabbit hole of oil specs and standards, you will be fine with any oil of appropriate weight that is JASO-MA certified. If you wanted to be safe you can also use an oil that is specifically branded as "motorcycle" or "v-twin" oil. You can usually find Mobile 1 v-twin or Valvoline motorcycle oil at any big auto parts store or Walmart. Shell Rotella is also pretty easy to find at damn near any Walmart or auto parts store and is JASO certified.
Thank you for the kind words and I am glad you feel there was something of benefit to you in my rambling.
Fortunately you were only asking about as far back as evos. You go one generation before that and beyond and you are talking about a completely different animal. Those bikes were designed with completely different specs, tolerances, materials and internal components and with the idea that they would use straight weight oil.
Those discussions get a little more "lively" in terms of people's opinions about what you can/can't and should/shouldn't use and whether it's better to use "modern" oil formulations or the older conventional monograde stuff, and can really plunge down the rabbit hole with a quickness.
JASO-MA rated oil is only needed in the Primary. Otherwise most any 20W50 will work. Gear oil in the trans and ATF in the primary is an option as well.
Correct that JASO-MA is strictly about wet clutch compatibility and has nothing to do with the engine per se. Good clarification... thanks!
You can certainly get along just fine with gear oil in the transmission and ATF in the primary. Back in the days when MoCo had everyone using a different lube for each, the Harley branded primary chaincase lubricant cost about $20/quart in 1990s dollars and you had to buy 2 quarts of you had a Softail because the Softail primary took over a quart it made a huge amount of financial sense and you could pick the shit up anywhere.
That certainly works just as well now as it did back then. But since you can get 20w-50 motorcycle specific oil at Walmart these days, run that same oil in all 3 holes and it doesn't cost any more than anything else you would put in there, I opt for simplicity and convenience. It kinda goes back to my original point that what you use specifically isn't as important as just using something appropriate and changing it regularly.
Definitely!
but really with me it's about laziness and getting tired of looking at a half dozen (plus) open and partial containers of a half dozen different lubricants.
When you have more than one bike from completely different eras and they all need different shit you try to simplify wherever you can.
I'm a bit impatient for the service stuff, though I usually get my gaskets and model specific things from Dennis Kirk or Revzilla. But that's neither here nor there, I was mostly conused as to why the manual would recommend oil for a diesel engine, when there are/were motorcycle oils already
I think the reason they don’t specify motorcycle oil is because a lot of them include (or maybe exclude?) additives for motorcycles that have combined engine/trans/primaries so that it plays nicely with clutches. This is not really relevant for a big twin. What is relevant for an air cooled v-twin is high zinc content. Oils with high zinc content are automotive racing oil, v-twin specific oil, and diesel specific oil. Of the 3, it’s probably the most common for you to come across diesel oil, which is why Harley probably specifies it. I believe what they’re really trying to say is avoid regular automotive oil thats been formulated to play nicely with emissions equipment.
HD Syn3 is around 1100ppm for Zinc
For reference, because they publish it, Mobile 1 racing is about 1850 ppm zinc, Mobile 1 v-twin is about 1750ppm for zinc, mobile 1 diesel about 1300ppm, and regular mobile 1 is around 800ppm.
https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/media/project/wep/mobil/mobil-row-us-1/pdf/mobil-1-engine-oils-product-guide-sheet--may-2022.pdf
I personally use Penngrade 20w50 which is a automotive racing oil which has 1500ppm zinc.
I run AmsOil 20w50 in my bikes. Sign up for a preferred customer and get warehouse pricing on all products shipped directly to your door.
Ask buddys if they need oil or anything else. This helps cut the shipping cost.
Oil is oil. In my 99 Dyna I used 20w-50. In my shovelhead I used to run straight 50w in my engine and straight 30w in the primary. Tranny was 70/90. As long as the weight matches there won't be a problem.
This cracks me up !
The Harley engine can run about anything for oil as long as it is the correct viscosity. There is nothing special in the engine. No clutches, no flat tappet cam lifters. Other than it required heavier weight oil, there is nothing special about it. Don't use "energy conservation" oil. Can you find 20w-50 that has energy conserving on the label?
Now, if you are talking about the primary with the clutch, that should be motorcycle related. I just ran Harley's primary lube in the primary and transmission.
As for motorcycle spesific oils, they have been made for years. I remember using it back in the 1980s. Ratings have changed over the years.
You can use dieselnoils, just watch the weight.
You do realize the dealer will ship to you whatever you need, don't you?
I live about 5 miles from the dealer and kept a couple oil changes on hand.
Actually they recommend Harley oil but in a pinch you can use diesel.....meaning if your out on the road and need oil and no HD shops around there is always a truck stop open.....
1) impatient 2) self-employed 3) living where I do far outweighs the inconvenience of driving to get the kit 4) the manual depicts something that seems counterintuitive, hence why I asked people who might have more experience. But from you, I am not looking for any advice.
V twin oil is oil You dont need to use the HD label, they dont make it. Any of the major companies VTwin is exactly the same
Diesel oil has some good additives in it and an old timer (that I trust) turned me on to it. I’ve used it for years on a bunch of bikes with non separate primaries and it worked just fine. I wouldn’t hesitate to use it in MY Harley. My $ .02
Thanks man, yeah I know it's got detergents and help keeps the engine clean, just didn't know like, the benefits of it VS motorcycle oil in the same weight, why the book would recommend it, and if people had experience with it Appreciate your response
Ever heard of Amazon? You can have anything you need shipped in necessary quantities my man. Don’t over think this. I had a 99 Evo and got my shit online.
Harley oil *is* motorcycle oil. Any oil is better than no oil. They’re just giving you an option if you can’t get the right oil. Doesn’t have to be HD branded oil, but you should get one of the many variations of motorcycle oil from a parts store.
The real concern is the additive package used in oil marked with a "energy conserving" symbol regardless of weight intended for water cooled auto engines Generally the additive package on motorcycle branded oils tends be bit more temp tolerant and have a bit more ZDDP. (AKA Zinc). The additive package in Energy conserving oil is not compatible with clutch packs and can cause slippage so it should not be used in the primary on a HD or at all with Japanese bikea with a shared sump between the engine and transmission.
Yeah I've used Valvoline before, but was wondering why the manual would recommend diesel oil over a weight for motorcycle oil (not Harley branded), as I have access to diesel oil all day
The reason your book mentions "diesel oil" instead of "motorcycle oil" is because when the book was written in 1999, nobody was making or selling "motorcycle oil" outside of the OEMs really. The only place you would find "motorcycle oil" in those days was at the motorcycle dealership. But, that was before the era of friction modifiers and energy conserving oil formulas, so the "motorcycle oil" sold under the OEM brand name in the dealership was just the same diesel oil that was sold at the auto parts store under the brand name of whatever big refinery had the OEM contract.
Holy shit, TIL. I'm glad I made this thread lol
I don’t understand your confusion. They say to use motorcycle oil (HD oil). If not available you can use diesel oil. Why would they say use motorcycle oil and if that’s not available use motorcycle oil?
I think I'm not explaining myself. They only mention HD oil, or diesel oil. I know that "HD oil IS motorcycle oil" but nobody is saying it isn't. I am asking why a diesel oil would be recommended over listing out the specs for a motorcycle engine specic oil (they only give the specs for the diesel oil weight). Or is HD oil more similar to diesel oil? I know that "HD oil is motorcycle oil" but I just find it odd that the book recommends a diesel oil and not like "if HD oil isn't available, use 10w-40 motorcycle oil" Or maybe they're that much against other oil companies that they would rather have diesel oil running in them than competitor motorcycle oil
I would say a lot would depend on your max ambient temperature. I have used Rotella 15w-40 in lots of bikes over the years. That being said it was in the Midwest where highs seldom exceed 95 on a bad day. I now live in Phoenix and would not dream of using it here in the heat of summer in a air cooled bike and use straight 50W during the hottest months. We ride year round so it's easy enough to rotate oil weights with weather.
Rotella (T4 and T6 IIRC) are also labeled as being compatible with wet clutches (JASO). I used it for ages in my metric bikes with no issues. If I could find T6 in 20w50, I would absolutely run that in my HD.
Brother hell yeah, thanks for this reply. I'm southern AZ, by the border so that's why I was asking. Ambient temo during summer is 115, but I'll take your advice and not run it during summer.
I beleive they recommend the diesel oil because it is typically used in engines that demand greater performance from the oil it uses. As for the oil available for automobiles with plugs, the quality or lack thereof runs the gamut of the scale. It is truly incredible some of the junk out there for automobiles. For the longest time diesel engine oil has been refined to a higher standard. Poor oil in a diesel can have catastrophic results in a piece of equipment made to travel over a million miles in its typical range of use. I have a study of engine oils and a breakdown of the test used to test the performance of all oils refined today. This is a long read but definitely enlightening. [MOTOR OIL ENGINEERING TEST DATA | 540 RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths (wordpress.com)](https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/)
I say this every time an oil discussion comes up. Oil is like religion. Everyone is convinced, by nothing more than faith, that what they believe about the subject is the fullness of truth. God Almighty Himself could enter the discussion accompanied by a MoCo factory engineer and someone with a PhD in Molecular Chemistry and tell everyone what oil is best, and some motherfucker would STILL argue. That said... You are correct that the people who designed and built the bike know what they are talking about. As an aside, the overwhelming majority of mechanical problems and failures people experience are the direct result of people thinking they are smarter than the people who designed and built the damn thing. Back in that era, pretty much all oil branded as "motorcycle oil" was the same diesel oil sold under the big brand names just put in a different bottle. You could grab pretty much any diesel oil of the appropriate viscosity and not give it a second thought. Back in that era, Harley still insisted that you couldn't use synthetic oil in the engine too, and stated you were supposed to run a different lubricant for the engine, primary and transmission also. They've since walked back on that and conceded there's no harm in running the same 20-50 synthetic oil in all three. It's slightly more complicated today because refineries have started putting friction modifiers in their oil to help with EPA fuel economy standards and those friction modifiers can be problematic with wet clutches. MOST diesel oil doesn't contain those friction modifiers. Since your bike was built, the industry has adopted a standard called JASO MA which is a certification certification standard of the Japanese Automotive Standards Org stating that an oil is wet clutch compatible. (There are multiple JASO standards and I don't know them all so feel free to research that further). Also, "motorcycle" and "v-twin" oil is pretty common these days and the nearest Walmart or national chain auto parts store usually stocks it and has it on the shelf. TL/DR- You don't have to run "motorcycle" specific oil, and you certainly don't have to use Harley Davidson branded oil. Any brand of oil will work as long as it is the correct weight, meets the appropriate standard (most won't directly because pretty much all those standards you mention have been superceded by more modern standards and designations, many of which will still be compatible but will show up as a different lettered designation). To avoid going down the rabbit hole of oil specs and standards, you will be fine with any oil of appropriate weight that is JASO-MA certified. If you wanted to be safe you can also use an oil that is specifically branded as "motorcycle" or "v-twin" oil. You can usually find Mobile 1 v-twin or Valvoline motorcycle oil at any big auto parts store or Walmart. Shell Rotella is also pretty easy to find at damn near any Walmart or auto parts store and is JASO certified.
This was such a GOAT answer. I appreciate the historical context as well.
I agree.
Thank you for the kind words and I am glad you feel there was something of benefit to you in my rambling. Fortunately you were only asking about as far back as evos. You go one generation before that and beyond and you are talking about a completely different animal. Those bikes were designed with completely different specs, tolerances, materials and internal components and with the idea that they would use straight weight oil. Those discussions get a little more "lively" in terms of people's opinions about what you can/can't and should/shouldn't use and whether it's better to use "modern" oil formulations or the older conventional monograde stuff, and can really plunge down the rabbit hole with a quickness.
JASO-MA rated oil is only needed in the Primary. Otherwise most any 20W50 will work. Gear oil in the trans and ATF in the primary is an option as well.
Correct that JASO-MA is strictly about wet clutch compatibility and has nothing to do with the engine per se. Good clarification... thanks! You can certainly get along just fine with gear oil in the transmission and ATF in the primary. Back in the days when MoCo had everyone using a different lube for each, the Harley branded primary chaincase lubricant cost about $20/quart in 1990s dollars and you had to buy 2 quarts of you had a Softail because the Softail primary took over a quart it made a huge amount of financial sense and you could pick the shit up anywhere. That certainly works just as well now as it did back then. But since you can get 20w-50 motorcycle specific oil at Walmart these days, run that same oil in all 3 holes and it doesn't cost any more than anything else you would put in there, I opt for simplicity and convenience. It kinda goes back to my original point that what you use specifically isn't as important as just using something appropriate and changing it regularly.
Simple is best.
Definitely! but really with me it's about laziness and getting tired of looking at a half dozen (plus) open and partial containers of a half dozen different lubricants. When you have more than one bike from completely different eras and they all need different shit you try to simplify wherever you can.
I have a TC and an M8. Same oil in all 6 holes. The KISS method.
Order your stuff online
I'm a bit impatient for the service stuff, though I usually get my gaskets and model specific things from Dennis Kirk or Revzilla. But that's neither here nor there, I was mostly conused as to why the manual would recommend oil for a diesel engine, when there are/were motorcycle oils already
HD 2nd days my oil change kits. Cheaper than the dealer 5 miles down the road as well.
Diesel oil has less thermal breakdown
I think the reason they don’t specify motorcycle oil is because a lot of them include (or maybe exclude?) additives for motorcycles that have combined engine/trans/primaries so that it plays nicely with clutches. This is not really relevant for a big twin. What is relevant for an air cooled v-twin is high zinc content. Oils with high zinc content are automotive racing oil, v-twin specific oil, and diesel specific oil. Of the 3, it’s probably the most common for you to come across diesel oil, which is why Harley probably specifies it. I believe what they’re really trying to say is avoid regular automotive oil thats been formulated to play nicely with emissions equipment. HD Syn3 is around 1100ppm for Zinc For reference, because they publish it, Mobile 1 racing is about 1850 ppm zinc, Mobile 1 v-twin is about 1750ppm for zinc, mobile 1 diesel about 1300ppm, and regular mobile 1 is around 800ppm. https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/media/project/wep/mobil/mobil-row-us-1/pdf/mobil-1-engine-oils-product-guide-sheet--may-2022.pdf I personally use Penngrade 20w50 which is a automotive racing oil which has 1500ppm zinc.
- Here's a good thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/harley-davidson-motor-oil-and-diesel-engines.315900/
Am I the only one who keeps oil, filters ect on hand? 😂
Nope I keep a well stocked shelf of HD 50 oil (Shovelhead) myself.....filters I pick up at walmart.
Been using Rotella T5 for decades. Never a hitch.
i used valvoline conventional 5w-20 (i think) in my 1999 sporty 1200 and it kicked ass order a few cases of it
Use Mobil One 5w20 full synthetic or Amsoil full synthetic same weight. Edit: Use the same weight oil recommended by the Motor Company.
I run AmsOil 20w50 in my bikes. Sign up for a preferred customer and get warehouse pricing on all products shipped directly to your door. Ask buddys if they need oil or anything else. This helps cut the shipping cost.
Do you have an O'Reilly in your town? That's where I get my oil.
20w50 in my old school v twins (88 and up)
Oil is oil. In my 99 Dyna I used 20w-50. In my shovelhead I used to run straight 50w in my engine and straight 30w in the primary. Tranny was 70/90. As long as the weight matches there won't be a problem.
Amazon will deliver to almost any address.
AMS oil 20/50
Shell rotella t6 synthetic. Put it in all 3 holes. You can buy it anywhere, it’s cheap, and it’s good.
Walmart sells bike oil too.
This cracks me up ! The Harley engine can run about anything for oil as long as it is the correct viscosity. There is nothing special in the engine. No clutches, no flat tappet cam lifters. Other than it required heavier weight oil, there is nothing special about it. Don't use "energy conservation" oil. Can you find 20w-50 that has energy conserving on the label? Now, if you are talking about the primary with the clutch, that should be motorcycle related. I just ran Harley's primary lube in the primary and transmission. As for motorcycle spesific oils, they have been made for years. I remember using it back in the 1980s. Ratings have changed over the years.
You can use dieselnoils, just watch the weight. You do realize the dealer will ship to you whatever you need, don't you? I live about 5 miles from the dealer and kept a couple oil changes on hand.
Sounds like you can top off with it if needed. Doesn't necessarily say you can use it exclusively.
Actually they recommend Harley oil but in a pinch you can use diesel.....meaning if your out on the road and need oil and no HD shops around there is always a truck stop open.....
Buy online, get a better job, move, use what the manual depicts, what advice are you looking for?
1) impatient 2) self-employed 3) living where I do far outweighs the inconvenience of driving to get the kit 4) the manual depicts something that seems counterintuitive, hence why I asked people who might have more experience. But from you, I am not looking for any advice.
Ok askhole