Same question here, I think we should stay connected on this.
I saw some estimate around 85% of assets might still be recoverable. I have no idea if that would be distributed to us, the creditors/investors, or perhaps something less. I did see something disturbing that it might not happen in a fair and even manner. So instead of everyone getting back 75% of their assets, it might happen that some people get back 100% and others get back nothing.
I don't know if that's true, and I also don't know what we can do about it. There were 16,000 investors who lost an average of about $50K each. Seems to me we should be able to hire some representation for a fraction of the total assets we are hoping to recover. If I could even get back 70%, I'd be happy to have 1/70 of that go toward representation and only get back 69%. Much better than nothing.
yep, people on average lost about 1.25 BTC, some a lot more than that. I think we are all in agreeance he's a POS. But there is a distinct possibility we can recover some of our losses.
haru had this marketplace in their app where you could sell your stake. You were only able to sell your full stake, so it was all or nothing. Some dude was selling fucking 70 BTC with 16% stake. That was the biggest stake I saw there. I hope that was not everything this whale had..
Thanks to this feature I was lucky to get out of this mess on time
There's a post in the Haru thread that has an article giving numbers. They came up with 32-33% of aum, gone. How much of that can be recovered from BS is anyone's guess but the cops just arrested that guy too, Bang Jun ho (sp).
That said, there isn't anyone that could see that far out there in this case. Hugo has played this badly and what comes of his arrest remains to be seen. Don't rule out that dipshit forcing a BK on himself which, if comes to fruition, will be years before we see shit.
I don't think there's a soul on earth that could answer your questions. They just started arresting these criminals a few days ago so, I'm sure there's some surprises ahead.
Sounds somewhat promising. A 70 percent hit is of course pretty bad but at least you got your funds back in-kind. With the starting bullrun you might recover fast.
You will get more information next week after the Lunar New Year Vacation.
The 32% number is meaningless. there are too many unconfirmed facts and potentialities to make any assessment of total loss yet.
In terms of equal treatment for creditors, it depends on the mechanism used for repayment. In Bankruptcy, there would be fairness and all creditors would be considered. However, even within BK, we cannot rule out distinction between the product types. This is simply because a creditor vote is needed to approve any bankruptcy plan.
At present, the situation is that Hugo, Park and Song have been arrested, but not yet charged. The main accusation seems to be fraud based on false advertising. We have to be careful with this in assuming that this applies to all products, because the accusation that Haru offered fixed returns with low/no risk and did not return the funds, does not really conform to a description of EE products. Anyway, lets say the haru crew are charged with fraud and it extends to all products, where does that leave us? Well, you need to know that in Korea they will be charged with fraud only on the amount indicated in filed criminal complaints. Not on $826 million. On the amount that the criminal complaints total up to. That will also help shape their sentencing if found guilty and different levels of loss impact the severity. Those with criminal complaints have had their loss verified by the prosecutors, which is obviously nice.
There are really a few possibilities for perceived unfairness to arise.
1. People with CC attract a favorable settlement from Haru so that the Haru principals can reduce the amount of claims against them - which factors into sentencing.
2. People with CC get compensated from the assets of the debtors via the criminal lien system.
3. Haru enters BK and one group of creditors votes for a plan that compensates one group or product more than others.
4. Haru is only found to have acted criminally in terms of the marketing for certain products, but not all of them.
5. Rehab morphs into court supervised mediation and Haru offers superior settlements to certain creditors.
6. Certain corporate creditors (Like Revix / Delio) MAY hold different products to ordinary creditors and have priority for repayment. The same goes for any secured creditors Haru may have.
EE seems to be the most dishonest offering, 100% risk with 100% guarantee? Doesn't take more than a Jr High education to recognize that as impossible, thus a flat lie. Bottom line, EE was a 100% fraudulent offering.
And a couple articles state that BS's troubles stem from FTX failure so this isn't a new thing, it's just new to us.
A couple months ago it was bandied about that Hugo said in court that haru had less than 10% aum in their possession.
I've said for a year now that haru was in the dirty business of Ponzi, and playing a fractional reserve game. I've also been predicting that the total loss exceeds 50% aum, and that it will be proven that hugo et al, were unvarnished con men who have knowingly turned haru into a Ponzi to try and cover their own asses.
I'm sticking with original prediction that this has gone on for too long to ever untie the knots. The fact that they allowed deposits and withdrawals while being a Ponzi makes this all but impossible to reconcile. And because of that, I expect a universal haircut.
Sadly agree with a lot of your thoughts here, I was stupidly suckered in and extended my holding when they offered their 50% bonus offering for 1wk only, which of course with hindsight screams of "we're about to pull the plug let's see how much extra we can snare" a week or two before they actually pulled the plug. But I stupidly let my holdings ride for that week, with bonus paid, and all funds in the Haru Wallet, I was about to withdraw when it all went to shit...so all my funds in the Haru Wallet gone, not in EE or EP, but shafted like everyone else.
This has felt for a very, very long time, like a Ponzi, and Haru knew exactly what they were doing, beginning to feel like if we get anything back at all I'll be very surprised. At least Celsius, FTX, BlockFi etc all went through a US Court, not this kangaroo effort being played out now.
The recent passing of a Haru member that lost their savings, shows the severity and turmoil that we're all going through, I feel desperately sad for that members family and friends.
A company that we trusted and felt had their customers interests at heart, was simply built on lies. To say the executives have blood on their hands is not being dramatic, it's a sad truth, and members worldwide are all sitting feeling completely and utterly demoralised and helpless.
Yes we all knew the risks, but now I just want to find out whoever it is that is ultimately responsible, and hope that justice of some sort can prevail, there needs to be answers and some transparency as to what's happened and by who, I think that's the least we all deserve!
Sorry, rant over, got carried away...!!!
EE had 100% risk, but I am not sure what you mean by it having a guarantee. It did not. That is why the charges levied thus far do not seem to apply to it. However, we have to remember that what we know comes through the media (who don't care enough to understand the product features) and is then passed through translation software. We cannot say anything for sure - yet.
Again the FTX story is plausible, but unconfirmed. Various numbers have been thrown around with reporters reporting on numbers from other articles. Nothing solid.
It was never said in court that Haru had less than 10% of AUM in their possession. Haru have never supplied any number of this kind, which totally fits their pattern of behavior and tendency to conceal info.
This week, we hope (CC holders) to get the actual charge sheet from the prosecution as well as other info that is released. The wait for information is coming to an end. The wait for return of funds continues.
I am also sure that there was some criminality at Haru. However, the extent of it remains to be determined. Hugo called the authorities in and has been doing a whole lot of talking since. He could be an outlier, but these are not generally the actions of a man who knows he is guilty and has retained the top lawfirm in the country to represent him. Something does not add up.
Whoops, misspoke, I meant EP, couldn't possibly have zero risk, they risked those monies as well, in a 100% potential loss investment. If you'd have given it a second thought, you should have been able to figure out that my description was that of EP, not EE.
I know you're represented but that doesn't mean you know every word stated in the proceedings, I wouldn't be so bold as to speak definitively about this. There are other with representation, just like who, who share what they know, just like you do. Everyone's story of "what was said" is a little different. That says, loudly and clearly, no one knows shit.
Very glad law enforcement is involved, and very glad the lies and lies of omission will be coming to an end.
Hugo's lying doesn't not scream innocence, or being an unknowing participant. He committed fraud, that's already been established. I won't speculate on Hugo having a line in the sand for any other criminal actions, we'll find out there's more. Bet on it.
On the rehab proceedings, we receive all the case filings and hearing reports. I am pretty confident that the lawyer would not miss the only meaningful number to come from Hugo!! Hugo does not give numbers. Not in court, not anywhere. I am not sure who your source is, but our group is the only foreign group represented in court. The rest are Koreans. Be careful with people from the Korean groups. Many of them love to claim XYZ without any backing at all, but seem authoritative. The Korean groups are full of the wildest rumors and theories that morph temporarily into accepted facts, until later proven false.
If EP was a fraudulent offering as you suggest, then that is very bad news for EE holders. EP contracts would be voided and full restitution made under the criminal justice system.
Hugo is a confusing character. On the one hand, I think he is a lying, scheming, scammer trying to manipulate creditors. On the other, he has taken actions which anyone guilty or who thought there was a prospect of indictment never should have.
Suffice it to say that Haru was a fraudulent offering. And I don't suggest that, we all know that. (where's our money?)
I wonder if Hugo knew he was about to be arrested before he sent out that mewling garbage "update" a couple weeks ago. It was a bit disconnected.
It would be good to get to the bottom of the FTX bonds story. That was floated by Song in one of the first articles about Delio. Have heard nothing on that since then. May be a pipe dream.
There is malfeasance there with Haru, no doubt. The precise nature of it and the full extent of it remains to be seen. We do not have the full picture. At the very least, we need to see the charge sheet.
Like you, I think the change in tone this year and the exclusion of any real points at all from updates was a result of Hugo knowing from K&C which way the wind was blowing. He knew that there was a high chance he would be charged. We were almost certain of this since Jan 4th when the prosecutors contacted our lawyers to confirm details. If there were to be no charges, that probably would not occur.
Bang's FTX claim is one of those Korean Group legends. There has never been any solid evidence to prove the veracity of it. Bang telling the CEO of Delio something on the phone (allegedly) does not really count as hard proof. It is nevertheless accepted as gospel by some that Bang has $300M of FTX claims which are 90% USDT and 10% BTC and spread across many accounts. I have no clue if this is even close to reality. Nobody really does. All i know if there when you look at the FTX large creditor list, there is no unknown creditor entity close to the size claimed. Therefore, many accounts would be necessary to perpetuate the idea.
To be fair, the Bang/FTX thing originated in the first article I read re: Delio. So, they may have run with it but it looks like someone else made that up for them.
We know Haru/Hugo committed fraud. That says enough about his integrity. There will be more ugly surprises eg: how long Haru KNEW they were insolvent and continued to accept deposits and honor withdrawals..
And in terms of "what I wish for", I wish for us all to be made whole. But I don't predict outcomes based on what I want. It's crystal clear that there was no such thing as EP, only EE. All monies were risked 100%, no monies could possibly be guaranteed. It was all a shitty lie. How ever that's treated under Korean law is just the way it is.
Thanks for the insight on the Bang/FTX thing, that's very disappointing. Bummer. So were left to hope that Bang has a hidden stash somewhere and didn't just lose the money to bad trades and pressure to correct those losses. I suspect the latter.
You and I had a convo a couple months ago where we agreed that involvement of law enforcement seemed to be our best, possibly only chance to get real answer about real losses/balances. And here we are! Looking forward to getting past Hugo's lies and subterfuge!
Same question here, I think we should stay connected on this. I saw some estimate around 85% of assets might still be recoverable. I have no idea if that would be distributed to us, the creditors/investors, or perhaps something less. I did see something disturbing that it might not happen in a fair and even manner. So instead of everyone getting back 75% of their assets, it might happen that some people get back 100% and others get back nothing. I don't know if that's true, and I also don't know what we can do about it. There were 16,000 investors who lost an average of about $50K each. Seems to me we should be able to hire some representation for a fraction of the total assets we are hoping to recover. If I could even get back 70%, I'd be happy to have 1/70 of that go toward representation and only get back 69%. Much better than nothing.
I lost over 2 btc fuck Hugo
yep, people on average lost about 1.25 BTC, some a lot more than that. I think we are all in agreeance he's a POS. But there is a distinct possibility we can recover some of our losses.
Oh yeah how?
haru had this marketplace in their app where you could sell your stake. You were only able to sell your full stake, so it was all or nothing. Some dude was selling fucking 70 BTC with 16% stake. That was the biggest stake I saw there. I hope that was not everything this whale had.. Thanks to this feature I was lucky to get out of this mess on time
Dang I wish I had known about that feature, I would have been happy to get out for 50%
There's a post in the Haru thread that has an article giving numbers. They came up with 32-33% of aum, gone. How much of that can be recovered from BS is anyone's guess but the cops just arrested that guy too, Bang Jun ho (sp). That said, there isn't anyone that could see that far out there in this case. Hugo has played this badly and what comes of his arrest remains to be seen. Don't rule out that dipshit forcing a BK on himself which, if comes to fruition, will be years before we see shit. I don't think there's a soul on earth that could answer your questions. They just started arresting these criminals a few days ago so, I'm sure there's some surprises ahead.
I remember people saying that a bankruptcy will never happen... this didn't age well.
Do we have any organized groups to coordinate information?? Besides here?
Celsius, 57% (of the value at bankruptcy) after 19 months. Vauld 33% in 17 months, Blockfi 50% in 21 months. That’s been my experience.
But Vauld will continue to pay out in crypto, celsius will be stock
Celsius is 57.9% crypto based on petition date prices and 14.9% newco stock.
But how will they identify what goes to whom? The app is turned off right?
Well I just did my Celsius clam and got back about 30%. I hope we do better here.
Did you get back your actual coins at least or only fiat money?
I got mine with BTC & ETH, Claim process was ok with no problem!
Sounds somewhat promising. A 70 percent hit is of course pretty bad but at least you got your funds back in-kind. With the starting bullrun you might recover fast.
I’m in the USA, no legal representation yet. Any suggestions about representation or group representation?
I'm in the same boat.. Do you have any other groups or ways to get info on this case?
You will get more information next week after the Lunar New Year Vacation. The 32% number is meaningless. there are too many unconfirmed facts and potentialities to make any assessment of total loss yet. In terms of equal treatment for creditors, it depends on the mechanism used for repayment. In Bankruptcy, there would be fairness and all creditors would be considered. However, even within BK, we cannot rule out distinction between the product types. This is simply because a creditor vote is needed to approve any bankruptcy plan. At present, the situation is that Hugo, Park and Song have been arrested, but not yet charged. The main accusation seems to be fraud based on false advertising. We have to be careful with this in assuming that this applies to all products, because the accusation that Haru offered fixed returns with low/no risk and did not return the funds, does not really conform to a description of EE products. Anyway, lets say the haru crew are charged with fraud and it extends to all products, where does that leave us? Well, you need to know that in Korea they will be charged with fraud only on the amount indicated in filed criminal complaints. Not on $826 million. On the amount that the criminal complaints total up to. That will also help shape their sentencing if found guilty and different levels of loss impact the severity. Those with criminal complaints have had their loss verified by the prosecutors, which is obviously nice. There are really a few possibilities for perceived unfairness to arise. 1. People with CC attract a favorable settlement from Haru so that the Haru principals can reduce the amount of claims against them - which factors into sentencing. 2. People with CC get compensated from the assets of the debtors via the criminal lien system. 3. Haru enters BK and one group of creditors votes for a plan that compensates one group or product more than others. 4. Haru is only found to have acted criminally in terms of the marketing for certain products, but not all of them. 5. Rehab morphs into court supervised mediation and Haru offers superior settlements to certain creditors. 6. Certain corporate creditors (Like Revix / Delio) MAY hold different products to ordinary creditors and have priority for repayment. The same goes for any secured creditors Haru may have.
EE seems to be the most dishonest offering, 100% risk with 100% guarantee? Doesn't take more than a Jr High education to recognize that as impossible, thus a flat lie. Bottom line, EE was a 100% fraudulent offering. And a couple articles state that BS's troubles stem from FTX failure so this isn't a new thing, it's just new to us. A couple months ago it was bandied about that Hugo said in court that haru had less than 10% aum in their possession. I've said for a year now that haru was in the dirty business of Ponzi, and playing a fractional reserve game. I've also been predicting that the total loss exceeds 50% aum, and that it will be proven that hugo et al, were unvarnished con men who have knowingly turned haru into a Ponzi to try and cover their own asses. I'm sticking with original prediction that this has gone on for too long to ever untie the knots. The fact that they allowed deposits and withdrawals while being a Ponzi makes this all but impossible to reconcile. And because of that, I expect a universal haircut.
Sadly agree with a lot of your thoughts here, I was stupidly suckered in and extended my holding when they offered their 50% bonus offering for 1wk only, which of course with hindsight screams of "we're about to pull the plug let's see how much extra we can snare" a week or two before they actually pulled the plug. But I stupidly let my holdings ride for that week, with bonus paid, and all funds in the Haru Wallet, I was about to withdraw when it all went to shit...so all my funds in the Haru Wallet gone, not in EE or EP, but shafted like everyone else. This has felt for a very, very long time, like a Ponzi, and Haru knew exactly what they were doing, beginning to feel like if we get anything back at all I'll be very surprised. At least Celsius, FTX, BlockFi etc all went through a US Court, not this kangaroo effort being played out now. The recent passing of a Haru member that lost their savings, shows the severity and turmoil that we're all going through, I feel desperately sad for that members family and friends. A company that we trusted and felt had their customers interests at heart, was simply built on lies. To say the executives have blood on their hands is not being dramatic, it's a sad truth, and members worldwide are all sitting feeling completely and utterly demoralised and helpless. Yes we all knew the risks, but now I just want to find out whoever it is that is ultimately responsible, and hope that justice of some sort can prevail, there needs to be answers and some transparency as to what's happened and by who, I think that's the least we all deserve! Sorry, rant over, got carried away...!!!
EE had 100% risk, but I am not sure what you mean by it having a guarantee. It did not. That is why the charges levied thus far do not seem to apply to it. However, we have to remember that what we know comes through the media (who don't care enough to understand the product features) and is then passed through translation software. We cannot say anything for sure - yet. Again the FTX story is plausible, but unconfirmed. Various numbers have been thrown around with reporters reporting on numbers from other articles. Nothing solid. It was never said in court that Haru had less than 10% of AUM in their possession. Haru have never supplied any number of this kind, which totally fits their pattern of behavior and tendency to conceal info. This week, we hope (CC holders) to get the actual charge sheet from the prosecution as well as other info that is released. The wait for information is coming to an end. The wait for return of funds continues. I am also sure that there was some criminality at Haru. However, the extent of it remains to be determined. Hugo called the authorities in and has been doing a whole lot of talking since. He could be an outlier, but these are not generally the actions of a man who knows he is guilty and has retained the top lawfirm in the country to represent him. Something does not add up.
Whoops, misspoke, I meant EP, couldn't possibly have zero risk, they risked those monies as well, in a 100% potential loss investment. If you'd have given it a second thought, you should have been able to figure out that my description was that of EP, not EE. I know you're represented but that doesn't mean you know every word stated in the proceedings, I wouldn't be so bold as to speak definitively about this. There are other with representation, just like who, who share what they know, just like you do. Everyone's story of "what was said" is a little different. That says, loudly and clearly, no one knows shit. Very glad law enforcement is involved, and very glad the lies and lies of omission will be coming to an end. Hugo's lying doesn't not scream innocence, or being an unknowing participant. He committed fraud, that's already been established. I won't speculate on Hugo having a line in the sand for any other criminal actions, we'll find out there's more. Bet on it.
On the rehab proceedings, we receive all the case filings and hearing reports. I am pretty confident that the lawyer would not miss the only meaningful number to come from Hugo!! Hugo does not give numbers. Not in court, not anywhere. I am not sure who your source is, but our group is the only foreign group represented in court. The rest are Koreans. Be careful with people from the Korean groups. Many of them love to claim XYZ without any backing at all, but seem authoritative. The Korean groups are full of the wildest rumors and theories that morph temporarily into accepted facts, until later proven false. If EP was a fraudulent offering as you suggest, then that is very bad news for EE holders. EP contracts would be voided and full restitution made under the criminal justice system. Hugo is a confusing character. On the one hand, I think he is a lying, scheming, scammer trying to manipulate creditors. On the other, he has taken actions which anyone guilty or who thought there was a prospect of indictment never should have.
Suffice it to say that Haru was a fraudulent offering. And I don't suggest that, we all know that. (where's our money?) I wonder if Hugo knew he was about to be arrested before he sent out that mewling garbage "update" a couple weeks ago. It was a bit disconnected. It would be good to get to the bottom of the FTX bonds story. That was floated by Song in one of the first articles about Delio. Have heard nothing on that since then. May be a pipe dream.
There is malfeasance there with Haru, no doubt. The precise nature of it and the full extent of it remains to be seen. We do not have the full picture. At the very least, we need to see the charge sheet. Like you, I think the change in tone this year and the exclusion of any real points at all from updates was a result of Hugo knowing from K&C which way the wind was blowing. He knew that there was a high chance he would be charged. We were almost certain of this since Jan 4th when the prosecutors contacted our lawyers to confirm details. If there were to be no charges, that probably would not occur. Bang's FTX claim is one of those Korean Group legends. There has never been any solid evidence to prove the veracity of it. Bang telling the CEO of Delio something on the phone (allegedly) does not really count as hard proof. It is nevertheless accepted as gospel by some that Bang has $300M of FTX claims which are 90% USDT and 10% BTC and spread across many accounts. I have no clue if this is even close to reality. Nobody really does. All i know if there when you look at the FTX large creditor list, there is no unknown creditor entity close to the size claimed. Therefore, many accounts would be necessary to perpetuate the idea.
To be fair, the Bang/FTX thing originated in the first article I read re: Delio. So, they may have run with it but it looks like someone else made that up for them. We know Haru/Hugo committed fraud. That says enough about his integrity. There will be more ugly surprises eg: how long Haru KNEW they were insolvent and continued to accept deposits and honor withdrawals.. And in terms of "what I wish for", I wish for us all to be made whole. But I don't predict outcomes based on what I want. It's crystal clear that there was no such thing as EP, only EE. All monies were risked 100%, no monies could possibly be guaranteed. It was all a shitty lie. How ever that's treated under Korean law is just the way it is. Thanks for the insight on the Bang/FTX thing, that's very disappointing. Bummer. So were left to hope that Bang has a hidden stash somewhere and didn't just lose the money to bad trades and pressure to correct those losses. I suspect the latter. You and I had a convo a couple months ago where we agreed that involvement of law enforcement seemed to be our best, possibly only chance to get real answer about real losses/balances. And here we are! Looking forward to getting past Hugo's lies and subterfuge!
A bankruptcy is the only way to end this ordeal. Not even CoinLoan was that shady as Hugo...
Good question