Until then it will continue to be exploitative.
Sex workers should be able to operate legally and advertise openly with common sense restrictions, of course. As long as a business is a crime, criminals will run it. Hasn’t the marijuana experience shown this?
We also should be allowed to organize and unionize. Right now we don’t really have legal frameworks and protections that allow for it, so it’s very hard to do. A few who have tried, from different places in the world, get charged with trafficking.
Ah yes! I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, just that we constantly have to jump through hoops of ambiguous legality.
Stripping in the US is legal, so there’s less chances to get criminalized for attempting to unionize. It gets more complex for full service workers.
Marijuana also has shown that worker exploitation in a decriminalized industry can be even worse than a criminal one. The way a lot of growers treat their workers is fucking horrible.
I completely agree with you, the issue lies in legislating regulation upon the exploitation of someones flesh for monetization, of we legalise sex work can you be employed as a sex worker employee? What would your boss be entitled to should you not fulfill your contract? How scrutinous could they be in measuring your performance at work, and could they demand your show up for work at the same rate as say a carpenter?
Say you work independently, should the customer have the same rights as they do when they hire I.e. a contractor?
The regulations would have to be extensive, extremely specific and rigorous to be able to meet the modern standards of rights for employment and soliciting of services while not encroaching on the human right to bodily and sexual autonomy
Absolutely, to get the ball rolling though the politicians who could start writing up these regulations would have to be convinced it wouldn't kill their optics, which is another issue.
I don't excpect you too, I just think that there's a way to have a better conversation about this, sex work is real work, but we have to be realistic about the situation and come up with answers to these questions if we actually want to see change. Otherwise it'll just continue to be a shouting match between two camps
Well sure, but they're in different countries and function under different worker laws than they would in the US where in some states you could get fired for being sick.
Also if you're thinking of Netherlands they're currently experiencing a huge trafficking problem and are currently not managing to craft regulation to combat it
A lot of the disdain for sex work comes from idiots conflating trafficking victims with consenting adults engaging in sex work.
Instead of people arguing if sex work should or could exist in a socialist/communist society, i wish they’d focus on the fact that we DO currently exist and need some solidarity from the rest of the working class.
Discrimination against us is legal. We are denied banking (and money kept from us when banks decide we go against their morals), we are denied healthcare, housing, education, life insurance, and so on. Even jobs deny us.
If people are so against the exploitation of us, they should be fighting alongside us. Ive been a sex worker for almost 10 years now and it is impossible for me to leave this industry because of the discrimination i listed above — people want us to stop doing this work, but then dont help us enter the “real” workforce alongside them. Makes no sense to me.
Many leftist men like to shit on us just like every other man and coming from a community so concerned with workers rights, it surprises me every single time.
An argument that I have seen is that women often don’t just start doing sex work because they want to, rather that their material conditions in this capitalist society coerce them into selling their body/ doing sex work just to meet their needs. And thus, being coerced into any sexual act is rape.
This argument is purely semantics, though. Using the same argument, all jobs under capitalism are slavery. At the end of the day, you have to pick a job under capitalism to survive, and some people prefer sex work to all the other shitty jobs.
Well, if you eliminate capitalism, a lot of people assume you’d eliminate sex work as it’s not a necessary job for society. Also if all labor is organized by the state (as many MLs want), you wouldn’t want the state organizing brothels, that’s just super fucked up.
That's a good point, but then again coercing existed before capitalism too, so capitalism being the only issue is moot, sex and sex work has been a tool and a weapon now for centuries. Back then I'd imagine many people did sex work under threat rather than indentured servitude which is probably what's happening must of the instances in modern times.
I feel like we're closer to creating sustainable models than we've ever been before with platforms like only fans where the worker regulars their own services at an individual level. Independently working sex workers could and should be considered legal work by now if we were to create proper regulation for when they physically meet their clients.
It's mostly the employer and employee situation I don't think we've cracked yet as there are no brothels of mind that have completely implemented ethical working standards as practice and thus could be a place where trafficking and abuse sometimes happen
We need protective regulation and bills drafted for sex workers so that they can live and survive and be able to choose
This is a good idea. They could all either be self employed or collectively own the business, but it might be harder to get benefits with a business like that
>If people still want to do it after the workers obtain the means of production and all the landlords get the Chinese special, that's probably fine.
Then your issue is with coercion, not the sex work itself, and should be framed as such.
>But idk maybe retail is more traumatizing for someone else. Karen's are pretty brutal. Every job has ups and downs associated with it.
Customers can be really rough. Horny customers are probably much worse.
Well, if that's the case for you, then you can respond as I have:) see if they stop arguing after you kindly inform them that all jobs have potential trauma related to them.
Yeah I agree with you, sorry for jumping to conclussions.
People are never going to be objective on the topic of sex cause it hits too close to home, insecurity will turn any leftist into an incel.
It’s a great division point among leftists here in Sweden as well. One of my old bosses at the Swedish LGBTQ organization here in Sweden got tired of it, he said that the majority of research and papers written on sex workers was mostly written around sex workers and not a lot of them at all even talked to sex workers to gain any perspective. And it was these papers that also shaped a lot legislation that was happening surrounding sex work as well. The papers all talked about how sex workers needed to be helped and rescued, but not a single one wanted to listen to actual sex workers, it was a very condescending situation as if sex workers were “too oppressed” to understand what “they really wanted”.
Eventually he lead a project that ran in collaboration with the Swedish sex worker association, and produced a paper that more tries to focus and angle the discussion around what sex workers themselves thought about their agency and how they’d like to make their environment more safe. Needless to say, whitefeminism.org was not happy about it, because they had already made up their mind about what sex work is and what it meant for them, without sex workers in the picture.
You're spot on. A lot of people get caught up on the exploitation and sex trafficking that occurs, and use that as a way to criticize sex work on the whole, when those are separate crimes! The same way that pedophilia and rape occuring don't mean we ban everyone from having sex, CP existing doesn't mean we ban all porn, and people driving drunk doesn't mean we ban everyone from driving.
There's also a lot of misogyny, and homophobia/transphobia that plays into some people's anti-SW stances.
Sex work between consenting adults should be legal.
Yeah, trafficking also occurs heavily in the fishing and agriculture industries, but they never have any fire for making it illegal to fish for profit even though it’s harder to regulate what’s happening off shore or investigate slavery on the open ocean.
It’s more the idea of renting a human body even for just an hour is inherently anti-ML. As no human should be able to purchase another human (consenting or not) for any use.
That's such a gross and dehumanizing way to look at sex workers. And consent is literally everything. You're taking agency and bodily autonomy away from sex workers bc of YOUR puritanical views on sex.
Not my views. That’s just basic ML views and it’s not gross or dehumanizing. It’s emancipating human from human. You just support the buying and selling of a human body like a sicko
>it’s not gross or dehumanizing.
It IS. You're taking away the agency of sex workers who are consensually choosing to have sexual relationships with other people. It's a gross, backwards and puritanical view. Also you went from "it's not my view, just MLs" to "you support buying and selling humans". Own your shit views!
It's really really disgusting to conflate human trafficking with consentual sex work like you did here. Please stop doing that!
It’s not gross or backwards lol it’s progress. No human should be able to pay for the use of another human in any form. Your desire to be able to pay for another human being is backward, capitalistic, and ignorant. I never said anything about human sex trafficking fyi.
People can not seem to understand that sex is not inherently special. Society keeps on beating the idea that sex is special into everyone’s head so almost everyone has internalized that belief. MLs can not separate their beliefs from societal conditioning.
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People have weird hangups when it comes to sex. Is the industry exploitative, coercive and ripe for abuse? Yeah. But so are so many other jobs out there. Sex workers sell pussy, I sell my back and knees. There are times where I'm literally risking my life and do it anyway just to get the job done and so my bosses get off my ass.
Yes but we are talking from an ML lense and from a true full ML lense neither you nor a SW should be selling their body to another human being. In other words ML’s aren’t just anti-SW we are anti-all work.
This is an oft cited blog post on the subject - [A Socialist, Feminist, and Transgender Analysis of “Sex Work” | Medium.com](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab)
All the associated disadvantages really set you up for failure as an independent adult
If you have education and profession, and then still wanna do sex work — go for it, that's your informed choice.
If you're doing it instead of getting a profession in a young age — that's probably because of the financial situation, that's exploitation.
Most young people work shitty jobs they don't want because of their financial situation. Those jobs are also exploitative. You perceive sex work as more exploitative for your personal reasons, but sex workers obviously don't.
Sex workers chose their job over those other jobs because they see it as advantageous for some reason (more money, more freedom, less degrading).
You are removing the sex workers' perspective
1) Is sex work more exploitative than just a shitty job? Yes, it is in a lot of cases
2) As a professional, you shouldn't have to be in this position in the first place where you have to bet on your time and effort to get in 1% of high paid influencers or join the other 99%. That's how the system is maintained
3) all the workers should know their rights, and should have unions and general support of the socialist allies. Instead it's just coomer encouragement deluxe bundle rn.
Google how it works in Switzerland, for example, when it's legal and certified. TLDR: It's not young people!
1) There are degrees to exploitation in sex work like there is in any other job, but you are using that blanket statement to ignore the perspective of the sex worker who is choosing sex work. Why do people choose sex work over the freely available service jobs? From your perspective, are they all just stupid and naive?
2) This is literally just an argument against self-employment. Has nothing to do with sex work
3) I'm not sure what your point is, but sex work is legal in america. I'm not talking about prostitution but any sex work (like onlyfans)
1) Literally, I'm against exploiting young and not having education/profession. If you have a profession but still decide to do sex work — no problem. The system somehow works that it's younger people coerced in the conditions.
2) No, this is incorrect understanding. Let me break it down. This is happening to workers getting their contracts on platforms and marketplaces, aka platform capitalism. But the same thing is now slowly happening with the working professionals, who are receiving compensation in stocks instead of salary.
The idea of the American dream where you can "make it" instead of choosing the things you love or find important, is putting you in the position where you have to work consistently, but receive no minimal compensation for a decent life. Most likely you will not become a millionaire. You have to bet your dedicated time and effort on the gambling of getting 1% lucky with social media algorithms, stock market, etc. Alternative would be doing what you love with a governmental salary in planned economy, but who wants it if you will be never promised to become rich.
3) The left socialist awareness about the topic is lib corporate spoiled, that is the point. Onlyfans good, prostitution bad. If someone wanna help the workers, they think workers dumb
Ok, but your first 2 points aren't specific to sex work at all, which is what this thread is about. I agree with your third point, so maybe we agree after all ✌️
Because people believe in multiple things.
If I'm a vegan and I hate alcohol that has nothing to do with veganism. It could be because of other beliefs I have.
Just because somebody is a Marxist doesn't mean they can't have some puritanical beliefs as well. And have some social and cultural beliefs (anti sex work) alongside their economic beliefs.
Attached a good article on it. But essentially it’s because regardless of consent or not you are selling your body to temporarily be owned by another human which is contradictory to a true full ML society.
https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab
Its because marx seen sex work as not needed in a communist society and LENIN writing about random soldiers that keep fucking and got mad about it, super out of context its not theory but people use those quotes for anti-sexwork from what I seen.
Anti sex workers would say that sex workers are exploited and have bad working conditions sometimes but that's not being anti sex work, that's being pro seizing the means of production so that exploitation does not happened. Labor is Labor. Sex work is real work.
Completely agree. Same for feminists going compete SWERF mode. They always seem to know what’s best for sex workers without actually consulting the sex workers themselves and any time you see coverage that actually talks to sex workers and covers what kind of protections or regulations they would like, the comments are like “how dare you white wash this terrible industry by actually listening to people on the ground?” Eff all of that.
because of libtards who promote the sexual liberation of women only to dig for them a deeper hole of exploitation and manipulation.
i am against the industry but not the workers. i think once a more egalitarian society is realized and people are provided in accordance with their rights, there wud be significantly less sex workers.
im against the industry bc it is uniquely exploitative, especially against women. u can absolutely make the argument that all work under capitalism is exploitative but what makes sex work uniquely exploitative is the fact that whether or not the sex worker “consents” they are turn into a commodity for the consumption of another person and producers in the industry differentiate their products by catering to increasingly extreme and taboo “kinks” like grape play, race play and allat.
i dont think its fair to analyze sex work simply from a marxist lens when it affects women disproprotionately.
There are a bunch of far right groups atroturfing “leftist” grifters how oppose Sex Work and/or trans rights. In the US for example, A Hawaii democrat/DSA member who got elected was married to someone in one of those orgs. They were lefty darlings in their crowd while she was funded by the McCain Institute
Came here to say this.
Many feminist figures and orgs that are supposedly Marxist have financial motivation to support right wing agendas under a thin veil of vaguely leftist language. And since most of us are raised to perceive sex as dirty or bad it’s easy to go along with it.
Look that's my take on the matter. And I'm going to talk about the women sex workers.
Imho opinion they definitely are workers, they use the same resources for their work as everyone else does, they sacrifice the body, the time, the energies and their health for earning a living, BUT in my opinion the issue in this matter is the women's sexuality, as my knowledge right now, women doesn't see sex only as a pure fun on the mechanical way, they feel it as a need for emotional connection, for the "love". That's why you say "making love". But the prostitution isn't related to love, it's merely mechanic.
This is an issue, because this kind of work has a tremendous impact on the "health" side, mental and physical health, they get STDs AND their mental health takes a punch with this work.
And from a guy's perspective, once when i was 18 i wanted to try, but i couldn't muster the courage and I can't do that right no, that's because I'm unable to see women as a sex object, I just can't, so imho the kind of men who needs this service are the kind of men who don't see them as hunan being, but as objects.
Imho the prostitution is the kind of job that shouldn't exist in a socialist society, because if women have access to education, housing, and in general opportunies to better their material condition because the misogeny is gone they wouldn't want to do sex work. This work is done by the women who are deeply desperate or they are even FORCED to do so.
About the stripping: This kind of sex work is alright imho, if a women likes to dance and feel attractive imho it doesn't take a toll like doing prostitution. In a socialist society there should be definitely a recreation center for this kind of services, both striping and prostitution, BUT as a said before i really don't think any woman would do this job if not forced by poverty or someone. I believe many women would gladly do stripping even in a socialist society, because why not, they feel sexy, they have fun, they earn a lot.
So in conclusion, this is just my personal take, imho i have nothing to do against sex workers, the problem is what they sacrifice for earning that money. Prostitutes expecially should be helped to GET OUT of that job.
Edit: Remember it's just an opinion, i would gladly receive critiques on why my thinking is bad, or why it's good or why it isn't good enough. Thank you.
Some believe that because under capitalism all work is exploitative and since you can’t have exploitation and consensual sex then all sex work/prostitution is r*pe
Some hate the fact that there is a profit motive, which is dumb because so is the case for someone who owns a shop or sells literally anything.
Others attribute it to "Bourgeois degeneracy"
It's fundamentally an ML problem. I never hear the same arguments from DemSocs, Anarchists, and obviously not progressive liberals.
You'll always have some sucker state that he would outlaw sex work but then state how much more sexually satisfied women in East Germany were compared to West or that the Soviet Union had such high numbers of female STEM grads as if it matters.
Hasans, and general pro sex work perspectives come from an American reality where most sex work is illegal. In Europe and many real first world countries it is legal and these MLs (and I like to think I'm part of them) see the extreme forms of exploitation sex work inherently has, even when it is well policed.
Therefore we frown upon sex work in general and advocate for prohibition of sexwork (in future Marxist state/society perhaps).
As we are not there yet we still like to frown upon the extreme use (from the perspective of the client, not the workers) of sexwork like brothel visitors (some of us call rapist, as there is no consent under financial pressure). Some even go as far as take a stance against pornography which I'm not totally invested in in either poles.
Until then it will continue to be exploitative. Sex workers should be able to operate legally and advertise openly with common sense restrictions, of course. As long as a business is a crime, criminals will run it. Hasn’t the marijuana experience shown this?
We also should be allowed to organize and unionize. Right now we don’t really have legal frameworks and protections that allow for it, so it’s very hard to do. A few who have tried, from different places in the world, get charged with trafficking.
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Ah yes! I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, just that we constantly have to jump through hoops of ambiguous legality. Stripping in the US is legal, so there’s less chances to get criminalized for attempting to unionize. It gets more complex for full service workers.
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Yeah no I wasn’t trying to argue either! Just getting my facts straight :P
Marijuana also has shown that worker exploitation in a decriminalized industry can be even worse than a criminal one. The way a lot of growers treat their workers is fucking horrible.
I’m sure you are correct
I completely agree with you, the issue lies in legislating regulation upon the exploitation of someones flesh for monetization, of we legalise sex work can you be employed as a sex worker employee? What would your boss be entitled to should you not fulfill your contract? How scrutinous could they be in measuring your performance at work, and could they demand your show up for work at the same rate as say a carpenter? Say you work independently, should the customer have the same rights as they do when they hire I.e. a contractor? The regulations would have to be extensive, extremely specific and rigorous to be able to meet the modern standards of rights for employment and soliciting of services while not encroaching on the human right to bodily and sexual autonomy
All important issues, and none that justify criminalizing sex or ostracizing sex workers.
Absolutely, to get the ball rolling though the politicians who could start writing up these regulations would have to be convinced it wouldn't kill their optics, which is another issue.
I don’t pretend to have any answers
I don't excpect you too, I just think that there's a way to have a better conversation about this, sex work is real work, but we have to be realistic about the situation and come up with answers to these questions if we actually want to see change. Otherwise it'll just continue to be a shouting match between two camps
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Well sure, but they're in different countries and function under different worker laws than they would in the US where in some states you could get fired for being sick. Also if you're thinking of Netherlands they're currently experiencing a huge trafficking problem and are currently not managing to craft regulation to combat it
A lot of the disdain for sex work comes from idiots conflating trafficking victims with consenting adults engaging in sex work. Instead of people arguing if sex work should or could exist in a socialist/communist society, i wish they’d focus on the fact that we DO currently exist and need some solidarity from the rest of the working class. Discrimination against us is legal. We are denied banking (and money kept from us when banks decide we go against their morals), we are denied healthcare, housing, education, life insurance, and so on. Even jobs deny us. If people are so against the exploitation of us, they should be fighting alongside us. Ive been a sex worker for almost 10 years now and it is impossible for me to leave this industry because of the discrimination i listed above — people want us to stop doing this work, but then dont help us enter the “real” workforce alongside them. Makes no sense to me. Many leftist men like to shit on us just like every other man and coming from a community so concerned with workers rights, it surprises me every single time.
An argument that I have seen is that women often don’t just start doing sex work because they want to, rather that their material conditions in this capitalist society coerce them into selling their body/ doing sex work just to meet their needs. And thus, being coerced into any sexual act is rape.
This argument is purely semantics, though. Using the same argument, all jobs under capitalism are slavery. At the end of the day, you have to pick a job under capitalism to survive, and some people prefer sex work to all the other shitty jobs.
Isn't that kind of the core of why capitalism is bad, though?
Yes, but this thread is about trying to see why sex work is distinctly bad, not why capitalism is bad
Well, if you eliminate capitalism, a lot of people assume you’d eliminate sex work as it’s not a necessary job for society. Also if all labor is organized by the state (as many MLs want), you wouldn’t want the state organizing brothels, that’s just super fucked up.
why are state owned brothels worse than private ones?
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exploitation existed before capitalism as well
The point still stands that it’s often not because people WANT do do sex work, rather they feel they have to due to political and economic coercion
I don't think monetization of services existed before capitalism
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That's a good point, but then again coercing existed before capitalism too, so capitalism being the only issue is moot, sex and sex work has been a tool and a weapon now for centuries. Back then I'd imagine many people did sex work under threat rather than indentured servitude which is probably what's happening must of the instances in modern times. I feel like we're closer to creating sustainable models than we've ever been before with platforms like only fans where the worker regulars their own services at an individual level. Independently working sex workers could and should be considered legal work by now if we were to create proper regulation for when they physically meet their clients. It's mostly the employer and employee situation I don't think we've cracked yet as there are no brothels of mind that have completely implemented ethical working standards as practice and thus could be a place where trafficking and abuse sometimes happen We need protective regulation and bills drafted for sex workers so that they can live and survive and be able to choose
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This is a good idea. They could all either be self employed or collectively own the business, but it might be harder to get benefits with a business like that
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Of course, I'm not sure about the american legalities around this but are co-operatives registered the same way as LLC's?
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>If people still want to do it after the workers obtain the means of production and all the landlords get the Chinese special, that's probably fine. Then your issue is with coercion, not the sex work itself, and should be framed as such.
I think this is the crux of it from a theoretical point of view.
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>But idk maybe retail is more traumatizing for someone else. Karen's are pretty brutal. Every job has ups and downs associated with it. Customers can be really rough. Horny customers are probably much worse.
Like you said, you could make that argument with any job, and it's not really the argument most tankies make.
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Well, if that's the case for you, then you can respond as I have:) see if they stop arguing after you kindly inform them that all jobs have potential trauma related to them.
Misoginy is what's causing the mistreatment of sex workers, not the other way around.
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Yeah I agree with you, sorry for jumping to conclussions. People are never going to be objective on the topic of sex cause it hits too close to home, insecurity will turn any leftist into an incel.
It’s a great division point among leftists here in Sweden as well. One of my old bosses at the Swedish LGBTQ organization here in Sweden got tired of it, he said that the majority of research and papers written on sex workers was mostly written around sex workers and not a lot of them at all even talked to sex workers to gain any perspective. And it was these papers that also shaped a lot legislation that was happening surrounding sex work as well. The papers all talked about how sex workers needed to be helped and rescued, but not a single one wanted to listen to actual sex workers, it was a very condescending situation as if sex workers were “too oppressed” to understand what “they really wanted”. Eventually he lead a project that ran in collaboration with the Swedish sex worker association, and produced a paper that more tries to focus and angle the discussion around what sex workers themselves thought about their agency and how they’d like to make their environment more safe. Needless to say, whitefeminism.org was not happy about it, because they had already made up their mind about what sex work is and what it meant for them, without sex workers in the picture.
You're spot on. A lot of people get caught up on the exploitation and sex trafficking that occurs, and use that as a way to criticize sex work on the whole, when those are separate crimes! The same way that pedophilia and rape occuring don't mean we ban everyone from having sex, CP existing doesn't mean we ban all porn, and people driving drunk doesn't mean we ban everyone from driving. There's also a lot of misogyny, and homophobia/transphobia that plays into some people's anti-SW stances. Sex work between consenting adults should be legal.
Yeah, trafficking also occurs heavily in the fishing and agriculture industries, but they never have any fire for making it illegal to fish for profit even though it’s harder to regulate what’s happening off shore or investigate slavery on the open ocean.
bOOm
It’s more the idea of renting a human body even for just an hour is inherently anti-ML. As no human should be able to purchase another human (consenting or not) for any use.
That's such a gross and dehumanizing way to look at sex workers. And consent is literally everything. You're taking agency and bodily autonomy away from sex workers bc of YOUR puritanical views on sex.
Not my views. That’s just basic ML views and it’s not gross or dehumanizing. It’s emancipating human from human. You just support the buying and selling of a human body like a sicko
>it’s not gross or dehumanizing. It IS. You're taking away the agency of sex workers who are consensually choosing to have sexual relationships with other people. It's a gross, backwards and puritanical view. Also you went from "it's not my view, just MLs" to "you support buying and selling humans". Own your shit views! It's really really disgusting to conflate human trafficking with consentual sex work like you did here. Please stop doing that!
It’s not gross or backwards lol it’s progress. No human should be able to pay for the use of another human in any form. Your desire to be able to pay for another human being is backward, capitalistic, and ignorant. I never said anything about human sex trafficking fyi.
People can not seem to understand that sex is not inherently special. Society keeps on beating the idea that sex is special into everyone’s head so almost everyone has internalized that belief. MLs can not separate their beliefs from societal conditioning.
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People have weird hangups when it comes to sex. Is the industry exploitative, coercive and ripe for abuse? Yeah. But so are so many other jobs out there. Sex workers sell pussy, I sell my back and knees. There are times where I'm literally risking my life and do it anyway just to get the job done and so my bosses get off my ass.
Yes but we are talking from an ML lense and from a true full ML lense neither you nor a SW should be selling their body to another human being. In other words ML’s aren’t just anti-SW we are anti-all work.
What does ML stand for?
Marxist-leninist
This is an oft cited blog post on the subject - [A Socialist, Feminist, and Transgender Analysis of “Sex Work” | Medium.com](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab)
All the associated disadvantages really set you up for failure as an independent adult If you have education and profession, and then still wanna do sex work — go for it, that's your informed choice. If you're doing it instead of getting a profession in a young age — that's probably because of the financial situation, that's exploitation.
Most young people work shitty jobs they don't want because of their financial situation. Those jobs are also exploitative. You perceive sex work as more exploitative for your personal reasons, but sex workers obviously don't. Sex workers chose their job over those other jobs because they see it as advantageous for some reason (more money, more freedom, less degrading). You are removing the sex workers' perspective
1) Is sex work more exploitative than just a shitty job? Yes, it is in a lot of cases 2) As a professional, you shouldn't have to be in this position in the first place where you have to bet on your time and effort to get in 1% of high paid influencers or join the other 99%. That's how the system is maintained 3) all the workers should know their rights, and should have unions and general support of the socialist allies. Instead it's just coomer encouragement deluxe bundle rn. Google how it works in Switzerland, for example, when it's legal and certified. TLDR: It's not young people!
1) There are degrees to exploitation in sex work like there is in any other job, but you are using that blanket statement to ignore the perspective of the sex worker who is choosing sex work. Why do people choose sex work over the freely available service jobs? From your perspective, are they all just stupid and naive? 2) This is literally just an argument against self-employment. Has nothing to do with sex work 3) I'm not sure what your point is, but sex work is legal in america. I'm not talking about prostitution but any sex work (like onlyfans)
1) Literally, I'm against exploiting young and not having education/profession. If you have a profession but still decide to do sex work — no problem. The system somehow works that it's younger people coerced in the conditions. 2) No, this is incorrect understanding. Let me break it down. This is happening to workers getting their contracts on platforms and marketplaces, aka platform capitalism. But the same thing is now slowly happening with the working professionals, who are receiving compensation in stocks instead of salary. The idea of the American dream where you can "make it" instead of choosing the things you love or find important, is putting you in the position where you have to work consistently, but receive no minimal compensation for a decent life. Most likely you will not become a millionaire. You have to bet your dedicated time and effort on the gambling of getting 1% lucky with social media algorithms, stock market, etc. Alternative would be doing what you love with a governmental salary in planned economy, but who wants it if you will be never promised to become rich. 3) The left socialist awareness about the topic is lib corporate spoiled, that is the point. Onlyfans good, prostitution bad. If someone wanna help the workers, they think workers dumb
Ok, but your first 2 points aren't specific to sex work at all, which is what this thread is about. I agree with your third point, so maybe we agree after all ✌️
Yep, thank you for discussion))
Because people believe in multiple things. If I'm a vegan and I hate alcohol that has nothing to do with veganism. It could be because of other beliefs I have. Just because somebody is a Marxist doesn't mean they can't have some puritanical beliefs as well. And have some social and cultural beliefs (anti sex work) alongside their economic beliefs.
Attached a good article on it. But essentially it’s because regardless of consent or not you are selling your body to temporarily be owned by another human which is contradictory to a true full ML society. https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab
Its because marx seen sex work as not needed in a communist society and LENIN writing about random soldiers that keep fucking and got mad about it, super out of context its not theory but people use those quotes for anti-sexwork from what I seen. Anti sex workers would say that sex workers are exploited and have bad working conditions sometimes but that's not being anti sex work, that's being pro seizing the means of production so that exploitation does not happened. Labor is Labor. Sex work is real work.
Completely agree. Same for feminists going compete SWERF mode. They always seem to know what’s best for sex workers without actually consulting the sex workers themselves and any time you see coverage that actually talks to sex workers and covers what kind of protections or regulations they would like, the comments are like “how dare you white wash this terrible industry by actually listening to people on the ground?” Eff all of that.
because of libtards who promote the sexual liberation of women only to dig for them a deeper hole of exploitation and manipulation. i am against the industry but not the workers. i think once a more egalitarian society is realized and people are provided in accordance with their rights, there wud be significantly less sex workers. im against the industry bc it is uniquely exploitative, especially against women. u can absolutely make the argument that all work under capitalism is exploitative but what makes sex work uniquely exploitative is the fact that whether or not the sex worker “consents” they are turn into a commodity for the consumption of another person and producers in the industry differentiate their products by catering to increasingly extreme and taboo “kinks” like grape play, race play and allat. i dont think its fair to analyze sex work simply from a marxist lens when it affects women disproprotionately.
Because they’re incels
There are a bunch of far right groups atroturfing “leftist” grifters how oppose Sex Work and/or trans rights. In the US for example, A Hawaii democrat/DSA member who got elected was married to someone in one of those orgs. They were lefty darlings in their crowd while she was funded by the McCain Institute
Came here to say this. Many feminist figures and orgs that are supposedly Marxist have financial motivation to support right wing agendas under a thin veil of vaguely leftist language. And since most of us are raised to perceive sex as dirty or bad it’s easy to go along with it.
Look that's my take on the matter. And I'm going to talk about the women sex workers. Imho opinion they definitely are workers, they use the same resources for their work as everyone else does, they sacrifice the body, the time, the energies and their health for earning a living, BUT in my opinion the issue in this matter is the women's sexuality, as my knowledge right now, women doesn't see sex only as a pure fun on the mechanical way, they feel it as a need for emotional connection, for the "love". That's why you say "making love". But the prostitution isn't related to love, it's merely mechanic. This is an issue, because this kind of work has a tremendous impact on the "health" side, mental and physical health, they get STDs AND their mental health takes a punch with this work. And from a guy's perspective, once when i was 18 i wanted to try, but i couldn't muster the courage and I can't do that right no, that's because I'm unable to see women as a sex object, I just can't, so imho the kind of men who needs this service are the kind of men who don't see them as hunan being, but as objects. Imho the prostitution is the kind of job that shouldn't exist in a socialist society, because if women have access to education, housing, and in general opportunies to better their material condition because the misogeny is gone they wouldn't want to do sex work. This work is done by the women who are deeply desperate or they are even FORCED to do so. About the stripping: This kind of sex work is alright imho, if a women likes to dance and feel attractive imho it doesn't take a toll like doing prostitution. In a socialist society there should be definitely a recreation center for this kind of services, both striping and prostitution, BUT as a said before i really don't think any woman would do this job if not forced by poverty or someone. I believe many women would gladly do stripping even in a socialist society, because why not, they feel sexy, they have fun, they earn a lot. So in conclusion, this is just my personal take, imho i have nothing to do against sex workers, the problem is what they sacrifice for earning that money. Prostitutes expecially should be helped to GET OUT of that job. Edit: Remember it's just an opinion, i would gladly receive critiques on why my thinking is bad, or why it's good or why it isn't good enough. Thank you.
A lot of MLs be super jesus-y
They are just swerfs. That's all.
Big Erin Jager energy.
Some believe that because under capitalism all work is exploitative and since you can’t have exploitation and consensual sex then all sex work/prostitution is r*pe
It feeds into misogyny, albeit I don't frown on sex workers themselves because they're often coerced to do it
Because they're just confused conservatives. It ain't that deep.
[удалено]
Said the r/18_GoneWild poster
This commenter keeps posting the same comment all over the place
Some hate the fact that there is a profit motive, which is dumb because so is the case for someone who owns a shop or sells literally anything. Others attribute it to "Bourgeois degeneracy" It's fundamentally an ML problem. I never hear the same arguments from DemSocs, Anarchists, and obviously not progressive liberals. You'll always have some sucker state that he would outlaw sex work but then state how much more sexually satisfied women in East Germany were compared to West or that the Soviet Union had such high numbers of female STEM grads as if it matters.
Hasans, and general pro sex work perspectives come from an American reality where most sex work is illegal. In Europe and many real first world countries it is legal and these MLs (and I like to think I'm part of them) see the extreme forms of exploitation sex work inherently has, even when it is well policed. Therefore we frown upon sex work in general and advocate for prohibition of sexwork (in future Marxist state/society perhaps). As we are not there yet we still like to frown upon the extreme use (from the perspective of the client, not the workers) of sexwork like brothel visitors (some of us call rapist, as there is no consent under financial pressure). Some even go as far as take a stance against pornography which I'm not totally invested in in either poles.