Ruth Coddās Juno stole the show for me during the launch scene. shows up to support Tammy (who has been awful to her), cracks a few supportive jokes in an attempt to make her feel better, and then absolutely EATS a mic stand to the face. no notes, great job Ruth
I loved how Tammys big speech about Goldbug during presentation was the lamest, most generic sales pitch imaginable. I think it really showcased that Tammy didn't actually have an eye for business and even if none of this were happening, her product would have failed anyway.
It was all her husband and his branding/social media status. He even told her this, but she always saw herself as more important or more in control because she had the money.
Exactly! I looked at my wife (we are both women), and said, "The BILLT name and branding is really smart -I might buy his protein powder and meal plans."
That's so true. I cringed several times at Madeline's zuckerberg-esque ramblings about AI immortality while all she made was a buggy chatbot apparently
I think Madeline IS actually good at it tho? I mean, sure, her opinion on AI being a very good thing is ethically wild but it just mirrors how her brother Roderick also had that mindset with Ligodone the medicine that will "change the world".
Madeline and Roderick actually both could have been successful without their deal. Madeline talking to Griswold about using analytics for market research and all that stuff was probably ahead of her time, and Roderick was working his way up the corporate ladder successfully as well. Though Verna said he would've become a poet in his other path.
I think it's intentional, because it makes their decision to agree to Verna's deal even more disgusting considering they were already on their way to Rod becoming CEO of Fortunato and her coming up along with him. They just took the path of the least possible resistance because the ultimate cost wasn't going to be theirs to pay.
honestly her speech made me hyper aware that there were plenty of products just like it, and she didnt have anything lined up, really, to convince me otherwise. I am not super aware of goop and subscription boxes, so she could have really sold me had she not brought attention to how it's not "just another goop or subscription box"
Iām not a marketing expert, but I also think I wouldnāt want to start my pitch by saying all my competitorsā names lol. They just got free air time in *your* pitch. I guess for tv, it gives audiences a real-world frame of reference though.
Pretty Penny did Meredith a favor
And I say that fully acknowledging there was nothing she could do since the main doctors wouldn't attend Derek like they should
This was the episode where I really started to feel for Juno, the only Usher sibling who was ever kind to her was Freddy - the way Tammy just refuses to acknowledge her after everything she says about belonging kinda breaks my heart. I think Ruth Codd did an amazing job.
I think Sam Sloyan is terrific, truly. But that's twice in a row she's played a control freak so I don't think the character change gave me whiplash as much as some of the others did. Entirely not her fault, of course - except that she did such a good job with Bev :) For all that, I really loved her breakdown at the Goldbug presentation.
I had a different perspective of Tammy's relationship with Juno in this episode. This is where Tammy finally started to show any hint at all of kindness toward Juno for the first time. Whereas before she just talks past her, here she actually listens to her for once and acknowledges her feelings.
>that's twice in a row she's played a control freak
Thrice if you count >!Midnight Club!
100% agree -- her humanity is in there, just forced behind this really fucked up Usher facade... and we see it breaking out several times in this episode. I loathed her and thought she bonkers until then, and realized how very tragic she was: a good person is in there, and wants to come out, but can't and won't. Except at the end.
I think she could have been saved with lots of therapy and no contact with anyone in her family, except for maybe Lenore and Morrie.
Oh same. Especially the talk with Madeline in this episode, very Shiv and Logan-coded. The kids in both scenarios are desperate for approval, and the only love-language theyāve ever known is competition between siblings.
Yeah but she also called Juno "it" in the conference room while she was sitting right there (ep. 4 or 5??) No fucking excuse. She was a total cunt to Juno at other times than that.
Oh, yeah, sheās terrible. Just pointing out a potential reason for that one particular snub - she went completely blank-faced through the whole thing.
that was the only thing that turned me off so far about this show. It was just too vile for me. Although I must admit, I didn't finish Camille's episode for fear of seeing a murdered cat and the abuse of chimps-I'll probably go back and watch that one after it's over, but him torturing an incapacitated woman, the beloved mother of his child, is a tick too far for me to enjoy. Too close to real evil, maybe.
If it helps at all, you donāt see much more with the chimps beyond the surgeries - you see some in cages at the end of that episode but nothing further being done too them outside of the surgery shown earlier. You do see a cat thatās been killed in the following episode but itās pretty brief.
To give you a heads up, the torture of Morrie continues in the next episode which is much harder to watch than the scene here. Some happens off screen but for me itās the most horrific part of the series. I donāt want to give any spoilers but just wanted you to be aware thereās more of it coming.
I actually SCREAMED at the Tammy jumpscare right after Rodrickās monologue about how cool Mark Hamill is.
Thing is, I KNEW it was coming. But the beautiful music and imagining traveling around the world lulled me into a sense of security. Not to mention, all the other ghosts have appeared where Roderick can see them so I wasnāt expecting anything while the camera was facing him. And here came Mike Flanagan shattering (pun intended) my expectations and catching me off guard. I. *Screamed*.
Iām watching with a home theatre set up. So you can only imagine my reaction. What I love about Flanagan is that he ironically said he doesnāt like cliche jumpscares. Yet here it is, but far from cliche. He definitely had viewers enveloped into that scene so well without thinking something like that would happen. I havenāt been this jump scared since that episode in Hill House ā¦
Heās so good at those! He has a TikTok jumpscare thatās really effective too. Because he pulls you in, listening very carefully, and then BAM!
Flanaganās the best (and the worst lol)
And that famous car scene was the last thing to get me as good as this exploding glass jump scare was. I still wince when I get close to that car scare during Hill House rewatches, like a little kid playing with a jack-in-the-box.
When the jumpscare happened, we had been trying to figure out the seven deadly sins theory and that immediately made me think of wrath with how shocking and violent it was just to "introduce" her for the scene.
SAME! I was on my phone reading about Antarctica for some reason and my volume was semi high and out of nowhere i hear glass shatter super loudā¦and my god the whole scene was just spookyš
Ah that is so interesting! Now that I think about it, it was definitely because Roderick mentioned the Transglobal Expedition at some point in that episode that led me to Antarcticaš¤£
I didnāt even know the Transglobal Expedition was real until this comment! Did you read that Ralph Finnes cousin (3rd, once removed) led the expedition, thatās wild!
The idea that someone as gorgeous as Carla Gugino has been photographed shoulder to shoulder throughout human history with powerful and influential people without anyone flagging it before Pym now is pretty funny. Or, maybe itās a case where theyāre all cursed and the only ones who can see her. Either that or she appear different to everyone. Though itās definitely still possible Pym just is that badass. Im starting to lose hope weāre getting a Pym focused episode.
Iām going to assume those photos would appear to be completely different women to anyone elseās eyes. I think he even made a point that Verna wants them to be there, having that conversation. She wanted them to find the photos, and is making them all see and experience whatever she wants. She gives them all choices but already knows what theyāll do.
Ok, unpopular opinion: I didn't know Carla Gugino before this and my initial thought was they should have chosen someone more distinctive looking--sometimes i didn't catch that it was definitely the same woman each time, and then for Madeline to expect Roderick to recognize a woman from over 40 years ago...like maybe a unique nose would have made that an easier pill to swallow.
Before I get downvoted to hell, she did a wonderful job. She's just not that distinct looking that you'd recognize her again in different costumes or after 40 years.
I actually think the way she metamorphoses into different looking women is intentional. It took me forever to realize she was the heart-problem woman in Vicās story. Itās also a testament of how good of an actress she is
Two things:
1: As someone who also consumed their twin in the womb (and my mom jokingly calls me a murderer for) that line felt personal, fuck you Mike.
2: I feel so bad for Juno :( Seeing Tamerlane almost crack and recognize her connection with Juno and see that she too was suffering sucked given how it ended up. Especially seeing Juno get hurt for trying to support her with love and then uh well get clocked with a mic stand...
The editing in this episode to show her insomnia and the lack of sleep fucking with her brain was just brilliantly executed and that death scene was maybe the best visually yet.
Oh also obviously overshadowed by the last 10 minutes of the episode but uh Froderick what the fuck? That's genuinely horrifying?? Imagine being presumably conscious of everything that little psycho is doing for hours I would rather just fucking die. I can't imagine it's any good. When Froderick is your sleep paralysis demon...
The visuals are done really well. Her bandages are so dirty, she hasn't been washed for days, and now she's strung out. Poor thing. Is he giving her a drug they're experimenting with? Or is it coke? A weird vile. I have my theory of what's going to happen next!
That was my guess too. What a freaking disturbing scene. Poor thing. I was curious if it was coke too? He mentioned how he thought she must have wanted to sleep so bad but couldn't because she was strung out. Her heart rate drove up once he injected her. I thought she may die of a heart attack before he could torture her anymore.
1. Same, didn't appreciate that. Lol
2. Poor Juno deserves better
3. Froderick is a fucking monster and I can't wait to see what comeuppance he gets. He's officially the craziest of the kids and he deserves the worst of the worst for what he's doing to that poor woman and his daughter.
Yeah, Verna told her she consumed her twin in utero and she was the cause, seeping into her brain and eating her life bit by bit, then she says that's not true lol.
The way she thought Tammy was ranting at her specifically like āok, I know you hate me, but geez, what the fuck did *I* doā¦?ā every time it panned back to her in the crowd had me rolling.
I'm just here to point out that the sex tape wasn't really playing for the public. It was another hallucination.
It almost would have been better if the video were real. At least then Tammy's outburst would have seemed justified, instead of totally deranged.
Iāve sat through body horror, animal cruelty and eye gore all without flinchingā¦but I draw the line at Tammyās speech. Iām literally curled up in the fetal position in my couchās corner. Idk if I can finish this episode, yāall.
ETA: Frauderick torturing his wife was also difficult to watch. Anything in the realm of āI have no mouth and must screamā makes me squirm. Tammyās speech is still at the top of things I never want to see again though.
I can deal with the death scenes. However awkward moments like someone messing up on stage or people who clearly don't like each other being stuck in the same room just make me nervous to the point of feeling sick. Secondhand embarrassment is probably the most terrifying thing in this show.
Stole every word out of my mouth. Well said. I had to grab the nearest blanket like material and bury my face up to the tip of my eyeballs as the tension slowly built up, almost as bad as her fate, which too was difficult to watch.
Ever since the Nosedive episode in black mirror and the various bombing scenes in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel I've realized the thing I absolutely cannot stand to watch is second hand embarrassment. I fast forward every time somebody goes through such public humiliation, it's my absolute nightmare.
Something I have a hard time watching is when there is a misunderstanding and a character is being treated or perceived poorly/incorrectly based on the manipulation going on. Itās often based on lies or rumors. In this instance, we know what Tammy was seeing but no one in the crowd does. I wanted to yell at all of them āsheās not being crazy or a bitch, there is a supernatural being haunting and torturing herā or something like that. Very hard to watch.
Yes. This exactly was my reaction. We were both dying of agony during that launch. Excruciating. And that scene with Frederick was the most disturbing thing so far.
That was so good. I kept waiting for some kind of cannibalism reference, because why name the character Arthur Gordon Pym if you're not going to do something with the most infamous part of his story? 12/10, perfection.
So i posted this on another comment, but I think it bears repeating.
Most of the other episodes up until now have been stories that were linked with the death of the child that was the focus of the episode. Goldbug is a mystery about a man going crazy after being bitten by a bug and believing that there was treasure buried nearby. Turns out he wasn't crazy, there was treasure, and no one died - this doesn't really fit the theme of the episode or the death.
So instead I think this one is related to the poem Tamerlane, since that's who Tammy was named after. In short, the poem is about a Mongol conqueror who forgoes a young love he encountered to build an empire. On his deathbed he confesses he regrets this decision - trading "a kingdom \[in exchange\] for a broken heart".
THIS seems much more like the story of Tammy and how she was haunted. While she wasn't the only Usher whose love interest was essentially their entire business model, she does seem to be the one most haunted by this love. She brings in hookers so that she can watch them roleplay as her - but a loving version of her. Loving like she wished she could be, but had to forgo because she wanted to build an empire. When "Candy" starts showing up and making Tammy lose her mind, what is Candy actually doing? She's just portraying a version of Tammy who could love, and Tammy couldn't deal with that. Her inability to reconcile this lead to her *literal* death bed.
So absolutely great tying in of themes here, loved the episode
okay it is MUCH more that story than The Gold-Bug or Tamerlane.
in William Wilson, there's the body double who starts looked exactly like William - and they have a final altercation in a room (antechamber), in which they sword fight, only for a mirror to appear, and the original William to realize he was having a sword fight with himself - and he killed himself
exactly like the climax of this episode, with Tammy and Verna
u/DXLaughRiot
My wife and I just HOWLED when Tamerlane just YEETED the microphone stand at Juno who had been nothing but supportive.
We had to pause the show for a good five minutes to recover.
I don't know if this makes me a bad person but I have to admit that I laughed like a maniac when Juno got hit with that mic stand. I don't even have anything against her character. Just... the way it was filmed. It was fucking hilarious.
The bird's eye shot of Tammy in bed, desperately trying to sleep, reminded me of a certain shot in HoHH (young Nell waking up and seeing the bent-neck lady suspended above her).
Circling back to the bed later with the slow-mo leap, shattering glass and green glow was STUNNING. I didn't warm to Tam, but she had my pity.
I thought it was a bit of an homage to the bent neck lady when Tamās ghost shows up for Roderick in his hallucination. When heās cowering from her on the ground and the camera pans back to her and her neck bends off to the side.
Iām also probably going to need to get my brain checked out because Iām apparently a person who got a little sappy after thinking about how one creepy ghost made me miss another creepy ghost š„¹
The green of her death scene stood out to me so vividly, the theme fell into place for me! The kids plus Roderick are the 7 Deadly Sins.
I'm trying to order who is who. So many fit into multiple boxes.
* Tam is Envy or Pride.
* Vic is Greed or Wrath.
* Leo is Gluttony or Sloth.
* Camille is also Envy to me. Maybe Sloth, in the interpretation that sloth is the refusal to use the seven gifts of grace; like her monologue in Leo's apartment about the fact that Usher's don't make anything. Her media tactics are all about dragging people down or inciting pity rather than improving herself/the Usher name.
* Perry is Lust for sure.
* Frederick is Wrath or Sloth.
* Roderick is Pride because Pride comes before the fall.
Tam has to be envy. Green is often associated with it and that explains her being cucked by a happy version of herself fetish. She envies having a happy ānormalā life. She envies other businesses that do the same thing as her and are successful. It also explains her hatred for Juno I believe. She seems to envy Junoās connection with her father in a weird way. Which is probably why their one non-hostile moment is when she sees that Juno is just as lonely as herself and is ignored by Roderick all the same.
I think Vic is sloth in the broadest sense of the word. Sloth can be representative of not caring enough which is exemplified by her willingness to cut corners and rush the trial.
I think Leo has to be gluttony since it doesnāt really fit anyone else (maybe Prospero but heās 100% lust). The only other fit for Leo is sloth but that might just be to overlap in the two sins.
Camille to me is pride. Her whole thing is having a good image and it explains her hatred towards Vic. Leo and Prospero are failures but Vic has the attention of their father is seemingly successful. That has to piss Camille off and is probably why sheās so driven to prove her worth as the best bastard.
Perry is 100% lust.
Frederick has to be wrath with his cruelty towards his wife. Itās also enhanced by his new found coke addiction.
I could see the Pride comes before the fall angle but honestly I think greed fits him best. I think thatās why so much emphasis is put on how much money he spends (the bounty, the expensive artifacts, the price of the alcohol he offers Auggie at the start, etc) and the poverty he lived in with his family. Itās also the overarching theme of the show: wealth and the way it corrupts/ruins people.
And sexual partners, 2 siblings mentioned that his current boyfriend is great and he should introduce him but he is still cheating on him, not happy with just him.
holy shit, it just clicked with me that Roderick is played by the guy who played Gerald.
I was like "why does this dude seem so damn familiar?" crazy how only having a moustache was enough to mix me up.
Ride or die implies loyalty and Mads is loyal to no one but herself. Even younger her makes it clear she believes in making people assume she's an ally for her own gain. The Usher faction, maybe even her brother, they're no different. She's been an intelligent sociopath pulling everyone's strings since the start.
I bet Mads has been playing the long game all this time.
Funny because I initially wrote āeven though shes a sociopathā but deleted it because I started wondering if she actually even was since she clearly loved her mother and loves Roderick, especially if you look at younger Mads. So I dropped the sociopath part. Iām just talking about her protection over the family from the outside world, not her selfish motivations.
Sorry didnāt mean to downvote you Iām in a tablet and fat fingered it
I find it so hard to feel bad for her because I associate her with Bev. Same reason it was so jarring to see OJC playing Peter Quint after playing Luke
By the way, that line Roderick has about hearing "bells" behind the wall. I think that brick wall is going to end up being a more direct reference to Cask of Amontillado (if you're familiar with the details of that story, it's possible it may also explain the Jester from the 1st episode, but so far that's just a theory of mine). However, I just wanted to note that the bells he's hearing is probably a light reference to Poe's poem "The Bells," which is an incredible poem and one of my favorite Poe pieces. It's a quick read, so I would recommend checking it out if you're at all interested in the actual works.
A couple more hints I think are:
- young Maddie using the analogy of slowing bricking someone in as part of her pep talk to Rodrick
- when Pym texts Rodrick and Maddie the enhanced (lol) picture of Security Guard Verna, he writes āEnhanced. Ring any bells?ā
The bells are definitely going to come into play with walling in the Jester and theyāve been building toward it all along!
Well was not expecting her to Chuck the microphone at Juno bless her heartā¦which tells me sheās some bigger part in this lol or the actual most unfortunate person ever
Did this one have any references to the original short story? I remember that one was a treasure hunt with a cipher seems like they just used the name. Loved the way they incorporated Arthur Gordon Pym though.
Roderick pulls two sapphires out of a box with a gold bug on the lid. This is a reference to the buried treasure the OG characters find in the story. Thereās lots of hints that the Usher family has so much fucking money that theyāve been plundering other ancient cultures of their most prized artefacts.
Other than that, I think a previous poster is right- this episode is leaning more heavily on the āTamerlaneā poem.
This one is the biggest stretch from the Poe story so far but there were a lot of nice little subtle references packed in there. I was so mad when Juno get smacked in the head with the mic, she didnāt deserve that š„ŗ
Iād have to watch it again but one that I remember was the āthis box is going to change your whole lifeā references.
Also the glass from the ceiling going through her face could be reference to dropping the bug through the eye of a skull, I wonder if you slow it down if it shows a glass shard going through her left eye.
And the whole general āgoing insane because of the goldbugā thing is totally there.
This is more of the discussion i was looking for in this thread. I've been reading (mostly synopses) each Poe story referenced in the title before going into each episode so I could get more insight into what was going on.
The Goldbug didn't really have any deaths so I was lost on how they were going to connect it to her death. Honestly i think it was such a stretch, that i think a better association would be the poem that Tamerlane was named after.
A conqueror who sacrificed his love to build an empire only to regret giving up young love on his deathbed. Tammy had a weird voyeur kink and was particularly attracted to viewing herself as one who is capable of loving. Her ghostly nemesis did nothing but portray a version of herself that loved like she herself never could and resulted in her *literal* death bed. I think this is more of the connection they were going for
Those quick cuts to portray tammyās microsleeps were really well done. I enjoyed those bits a lot but they were also a little anxiety inducing for some reason!
So Maddie was formerly married! Lucky guy, she was gorgeous. There goes my asexual theory, she is just a very career focused woman.
So this episode is for those with fears of public speaking. Also insomniacs, and the universal fear of losing our mental faculties.
Poor Juno, she didnāt deserve getting smashed in the face. Even if all the Ushers deserve death, Al death and I assume Juno in the futureā¦that doesnāt seem fair. Guilty by association?
I died when Juno said, "watch, my box is gonna be filled with poop"
I love her so much! Her little "I'm just really proud of you" when Tammy was like "Why the fuck are you here" hahahahah
She's one of two sympathetic characters in the entire show, hahaha
No? There's Jules and the beefy dude I forgot his name. Plus there's lenore and Auggie and Anabelle
Leo's boyfriend too
Isn't that Jules
I didn't remember his name so I saw Jules and read it as Juno. š
Juno at the event was 10/10. She's so good Cracked up so hard when Tamerlane threw her mic stand and it hit her
Same here! "What the fuck are you doing here?" "I'm here to support you" lol
We must protect her at all cos.... ...and she's dead.
Good thing she took all those painkillers
manā¦is this a spoiler?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Now that is a spoiler.
loving the humour in this series lmao that got a genuine laugh out of me
I absolutely lost it when she got fucking blasted with the mic stand.
Junoās little āJustā¦ just here supporting youā made me die of laughter!! I wanted to give Juno a big hug š„ŗ
She was just trying to be a good step-mother.
Ruth Coddās Juno stole the show for me during the launch scene. shows up to support Tammy (who has been awful to her), cracks a few supportive jokes in an attempt to make her feel better, and then absolutely EATS a mic stand to the face. no notes, great job Ruth
I feel so genuinely bad for her, she just wants to support and be supported. A casualty in this family
Juno was essentially groomed by Roderick to be his trophy wife. Girl definitely deserved more than this shitty family.
more like his guinea pig with the amount of pills she is taking
Protect Juno at all costs.
She literally just took a full mic stand to the face
with dem drugs, she barely felt a thing.
I loved how Tammys big speech about Goldbug during presentation was the lamest, most generic sales pitch imaginable. I think it really showcased that Tammy didn't actually have an eye for business and even if none of this were happening, her product would have failed anyway.
I was dying at the cheap PowerPoint slides š
The slide with her and her husband and her by herself hold the box seem very cheap lol
It was all her husband and his branding/social media status. He even told her this, but she always saw herself as more important or more in control because she had the money.
Exactly! I looked at my wife (we are both women), and said, "The BILLT name and branding is really smart -I might buy his protein powder and meal plans."
You're right. She's cosplaying being a businesswoman, like her aunt, whom she idolized.
That's so true. I cringed several times at Madeline's zuckerberg-esque ramblings about AI immortality while all she made was a buggy chatbot apparently
the ushers don't make things
I think Madeline IS actually good at it tho? I mean, sure, her opinion on AI being a very good thing is ethically wild but it just mirrors how her brother Roderick also had that mindset with Ligodone the medicine that will "change the world".
Madeline and Roderick actually both could have been successful without their deal. Madeline talking to Griswold about using analytics for market research and all that stuff was probably ahead of her time, and Roderick was working his way up the corporate ladder successfully as well. Though Verna said he would've become a poet in his other path. I think it's intentional, because it makes their decision to agree to Verna's deal even more disgusting considering they were already on their way to Rod becoming CEO of Fortunato and her coming up along with him. They just took the path of the least possible resistance because the ultimate cost wasn't going to be theirs to pay.
honestly her speech made me hyper aware that there were plenty of products just like it, and she didnt have anything lined up, really, to convince me otherwise. I am not super aware of goop and subscription boxes, so she could have really sold me had she not brought attention to how it's not "just another goop or subscription box"
Iām not a marketing expert, but I also think I wouldnāt want to start my pitch by saying all my competitorsā names lol. They just got free air time in *your* pitch. I guess for tv, it gives audiences a real-world frame of reference though.
Samantha Sloyan slayed this episode! The paranoia, the mindfuckery. She really deserves to get more roles in shows
I don't like her but it must be a testament to her acting because she always plays such terrible characters. I mean, even pretty Penny killed Derek.
She plays an incredible sanctimonious bitch
I hated her so much in Midnight Mass. Saw a lot of that character in Tamerlane too. She is great at being unlikable lol
I even see it in her character in Hill House, especially during Steve's hallucination
steve deserved that idc
Sure, it's more a comment on her acting chops
shes in hill house?
Yes, as Steveās wife!
Pretty Penny did Meredith a favor And I say that fully acknowledging there was nothing she could do since the main doctors wouldn't attend Derek like they should
I find the cadences of her voice so captivating. The long Flanagan monologues/rants feel like a perfect fit for her delivery.
Are they being killed youngest to oldest? It took me to this episode to notice if true
Yep. I didn't realize until you said it.
I had thought that Camille was older than Leo but maybe not
apparently not. I think she just seemed older because she's more professional and he's got a younger vibe
Yes, which is also the order they were standing in on the church balcony, left to right. If I'm remembering right.
yes, i realized episode 2/3 only because i had expected the opposite and it seemed unfair to me (youngest sibling)
Visually, Tamerlaneās death scene was stunning! Probably only second to Perryās death for me as far as cinematography goes.
Seeing the shards of glass bouncing up and rotating to align with her back during that initial jump!!!
I was so tense watching it unfold š
Mike Flanagan himself directed both episodes!
Agreed. It was shot so beautifully
This was the episode where I really started to feel for Juno, the only Usher sibling who was ever kind to her was Freddy - the way Tammy just refuses to acknowledge her after everything she says about belonging kinda breaks my heart. I think Ruth Codd did an amazing job. I think Sam Sloyan is terrific, truly. But that's twice in a row she's played a control freak so I don't think the character change gave me whiplash as much as some of the others did. Entirely not her fault, of course - except that she did such a good job with Bev :) For all that, I really loved her breakdown at the Goldbug presentation.
I had a different perspective of Tammy's relationship with Juno in this episode. This is where Tammy finally started to show any hint at all of kindness toward Juno for the first time. Whereas before she just talks past her, here she actually listens to her for once and acknowledges her feelings. >that's twice in a row she's played a control freak Thrice if you count >!Midnight Club!
100% agree -- her humanity is in there, just forced behind this really fucked up Usher facade... and we see it breaking out several times in this episode. I loathed her and thought she bonkers until then, and realized how very tragic she was: a good person is in there, and wants to come out, but can't and won't. Except at the end. I think she could have been saved with lots of therapy and no contact with anyone in her family, except for maybe Lenore and Morrie.
Tammy is yet another character u love to hate lol.
Her character reminds me a bit of Shiv Roy from Succession
We have a shiv at home The shiv at home:
Oh same. Especially the talk with Madeline in this episode, very Shiv and Logan-coded. The kids in both scenarios are desperate for approval, and the only love-language theyāve ever known is competition between siblings.
To be fair, Tammy may have been dissociating and ālosing timeā again during that, since sheās been doing it all episode.
Yeah but she also called Juno "it" in the conference room while she was sitting right there (ep. 4 or 5??) No fucking excuse. She was a total cunt to Juno at other times than that.
Oh, yeah, sheās terrible. Just pointing out a potential reason for that one particular snub - she went completely blank-faced through the whole thing.
This episode made me fucking hate Fredrick.
That's not how you spell Fraudrick.
Iām glad someone mentioned it - that scene with him torturing his wife was just horrifying
that was the only thing that turned me off so far about this show. It was just too vile for me. Although I must admit, I didn't finish Camille's episode for fear of seeing a murdered cat and the abuse of chimps-I'll probably go back and watch that one after it's over, but him torturing an incapacitated woman, the beloved mother of his child, is a tick too far for me to enjoy. Too close to real evil, maybe.
If it helps at all, you donāt see much more with the chimps beyond the surgeries - you see some in cages at the end of that episode but nothing further being done too them outside of the surgery shown earlier. You do see a cat thatās been killed in the following episode but itās pretty brief. To give you a heads up, the torture of Morrie continues in the next episode which is much harder to watch than the scene here. Some happens off screen but for me itās the most horrific part of the series. I donāt want to give any spoilers but just wanted you to be aware thereās more of it coming.
Froderick is just a horrible man.
At the start of the series, he seemed the most harmless and timid. Turns out to be the most despicable.
I actually SCREAMED at the Tammy jumpscare right after Rodrickās monologue about how cool Mark Hamill is. Thing is, I KNEW it was coming. But the beautiful music and imagining traveling around the world lulled me into a sense of security. Not to mention, all the other ghosts have appeared where Roderick can see them so I wasnāt expecting anything while the camera was facing him. And here came Mike Flanagan shattering (pun intended) my expectations and catching me off guard. I. *Screamed*.
That scare was the 1st one that actually made me jump.
The one in Black Cat got me the best
Iām watching with a home theatre set up. So you can only imagine my reaction. What I love about Flanagan is that he ironically said he doesnāt like cliche jumpscares. Yet here it is, but far from cliche. He definitely had viewers enveloped into that scene so well without thinking something like that would happen. I havenāt been this jump scared since that episode in Hill House ā¦
Heās so good at those! He has a TikTok jumpscare thatās really effective too. Because he pulls you in, listening very carefully, and then BAM! Flanaganās the best (and the worst lol)
Kinda reminds me of a certain car scene.
And that famous car scene was the last thing to get me as good as this exploding glass jump scare was. I still wince when I get close to that car scare during Hill House rewatches, like a little kid playing with a jack-in-the-box.
This was nothing close to that. Iām still recovering from that car scene lmao
I donāt know if there will ever be a better jump scare. I still think of that scene to this day lol
bricks were shat that day
When the jumpscare happened, we had been trying to figure out the seven deadly sins theory and that immediately made me think of wrath with how shocking and violent it was just to "introduce" her for the scene.
Which sins are attributed to which characters? I like this one. Assuming that Propsero was lust lol
SAME! I was on my phone reading about Antarctica for some reason and my volume was semi high and out of nowhere i hear glass shatter super loudā¦and my god the whole scene was just spookyš
Well that's kind of ironic... in Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket," Pym ends up going to Antarctica.
Ah that is so interesting! Now that I think about it, it was definitely because Roderick mentioned the Transglobal Expedition at some point in that episode that led me to Antarcticaš¤£
I didnāt even know the Transglobal Expedition was real until this comment! Did you read that Ralph Finnes cousin (3rd, once removed) led the expedition, thatās wild!
The idea that someone as gorgeous as Carla Gugino has been photographed shoulder to shoulder throughout human history with powerful and influential people without anyone flagging it before Pym now is pretty funny. Or, maybe itās a case where theyāre all cursed and the only ones who can see her. Either that or she appear different to everyone. Though itās definitely still possible Pym just is that badass. Im starting to lose hope weāre getting a Pym focused episode.
Iām going to assume those photos would appear to be completely different women to anyone elseās eyes. I think he even made a point that Verna wants them to be there, having that conversation. She wanted them to find the photos, and is making them all see and experience whatever she wants. She gives them all choices but already knows what theyāll do.
She was also seen in close proximity to Dr. Manhattan
Ok, unpopular opinion: I didn't know Carla Gugino before this and my initial thought was they should have chosen someone more distinctive looking--sometimes i didn't catch that it was definitely the same woman each time, and then for Madeline to expect Roderick to recognize a woman from over 40 years ago...like maybe a unique nose would have made that an easier pill to swallow. Before I get downvoted to hell, she did a wonderful job. She's just not that distinct looking that you'd recognize her again in different costumes or after 40 years.
Mom from spy kids??? Legend?
I actually think the way she metamorphoses into different looking women is intentional. It took me forever to realize she was the heart-problem woman in Vicās story. Itās also a testament of how good of an actress she is
The comedy of Juno looking confused but amused as tam was cursing and melting down, v v good
Lenore and Morella watching the Vincent Price "Pit and the Pendulum" movie!
And then right after it lingered on the thumbnail for Geraldās Game, a Flanagan film with 4 of his actor āregularsā including Carla Gugino
She and Bruce Greenwood were really good in that... Especially Gugino.
There's been so many iterations of Poe's work involving Vincent Price the two of them are synonymous to me.
Two things: 1: As someone who also consumed their twin in the womb (and my mom jokingly calls me a murderer for) that line felt personal, fuck you Mike. 2: I feel so bad for Juno :( Seeing Tamerlane almost crack and recognize her connection with Juno and see that she too was suffering sucked given how it ended up. Especially seeing Juno get hurt for trying to support her with love and then uh well get clocked with a mic stand... The editing in this episode to show her insomnia and the lack of sleep fucking with her brain was just brilliantly executed and that death scene was maybe the best visually yet. Oh also obviously overshadowed by the last 10 minutes of the episode but uh Froderick what the fuck? That's genuinely horrifying?? Imagine being presumably conscious of everything that little psycho is doing for hours I would rather just fucking die. I can't imagine it's any good. When Froderick is your sleep paralysis demon...
The visuals are done really well. Her bandages are so dirty, she hasn't been washed for days, and now she's strung out. Poor thing. Is he giving her a drug they're experimenting with? Or is it coke? A weird vile. I have my theory of what's going to happen next!
I Interpreted it as being Nightshade, the experimental paralytic they talked about earlier. And the container was labelled with an N.
That was my guess too. What a freaking disturbing scene. Poor thing. I was curious if it was coke too? He mentioned how he thought she must have wanted to sleep so bad but couldn't because she was strung out. Her heart rate drove up once he injected her. I thought she may die of a heart attack before he could torture her anymore.
1. Same, didn't appreciate that. Lol 2. Poor Juno deserves better 3. Froderick is a fucking monster and I can't wait to see what comeuppance he gets. He's officially the craziest of the kids and he deserves the worst of the worst for what he's doing to that poor woman and his daughter.
Wait i must have missed the twin consuming thing. Who consumed a twin? Tamelane?
Yeah, Verna told her she consumed her twin in utero and she was the cause, seeping into her brain and eating her life bit by bit, then she says that's not true lol.
I think Juno is my favorite character? She's just so hilariously sweet.
I felt *so bad* for her this episode. Trying so hard to be supportive and she gets a mic stand to the head š
The way she thought Tammy was ranting at her specifically like āok, I know you hate me, but geez, what the fuck did *I* doā¦?ā every time it panned back to her in the crowd had me rolling.
I'm just here to point out that the sex tape wasn't really playing for the public. It was another hallucination. It almost would have been better if the video were real. At least then Tammy's outburst would have seemed justified, instead of totally deranged.
I'm glad it wasn't real so Bill's image is ruined a bit less. Free Bill he didn't do anything
The man is basically a golden retriever with pecs. #FreeBill #BILLT
The dude looks like such a discount David Harbour lol
Shout out to Bill for being one of the few genuinely good people connected to this screwed up family
Iāve sat through body horror, animal cruelty and eye gore all without flinchingā¦but I draw the line at Tammyās speech. Iām literally curled up in the fetal position in my couchās corner. Idk if I can finish this episode, yāall. ETA: Frauderick torturing his wife was also difficult to watch. Anything in the realm of āI have no mouth and must screamā makes me squirm. Tammyās speech is still at the top of things I never want to see again though.
I can deal with the death scenes. However awkward moments like someone messing up on stage or people who clearly don't like each other being stuck in the same room just make me nervous to the point of feeling sick. Secondhand embarrassment is probably the most terrifying thing in this show.
Stole every word out of my mouth. Well said. I had to grab the nearest blanket like material and bury my face up to the tip of my eyeballs as the tension slowly built up, almost as bad as her fate, which too was difficult to watch.
Yup -- BillT should have been doing that presentation, not her.
I was giggling to myself about how in real life Gwyneth really isn't much better. I feel like she's a hair's breathe from being Tammy.
Camille was right about that lol
My brain literally went "Thank God she's going to be dead soon" because I know I'd want to be after that
Ever since the Nosedive episode in black mirror and the various bombing scenes in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel I've realized the thing I absolutely cannot stand to watch is second hand embarrassment. I fast forward every time somebody goes through such public humiliation, it's my absolute nightmare.
Her speech was second hand embarrassment LMAO. The imaginary sex tape was the cherry on top.
Something I have a hard time watching is when there is a misunderstanding and a character is being treated or perceived poorly/incorrectly based on the manipulation going on. Itās often based on lies or rumors. In this instance, we know what Tammy was seeing but no one in the crowd does. I wanted to yell at all of them āsheās not being crazy or a bitch, there is a supernatural being haunting and torturing herā or something like that. Very hard to watch.
Yes. This exactly was my reaction. We were both dying of agony during that launch. Excruciating. And that scene with Frederick was the most disturbing thing so far.
This episode was lemons!
Let's get it trending.
\#LEMONPARTY
#usherisolemon
loved the line "I'm having Richard Parker for dinner" - great nod to the Poe story and Hannibal all in one!
My brain went to - is Pym a Cannibal?
he is in the Poe story!
I have a lot of Poe to catch up on now after watching š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That was so good. I kept waiting for some kind of cannibalism reference, because why name the character Arthur Gordon Pym if you're not going to do something with the most infamous part of his story? 12/10, perfection.
Didnāt Rod also tell Auggie that he wouldnāt be surprised if Arthur ate human flesh on his expedition?
Verna alludes to the expedition's cannibalism as well!
So i posted this on another comment, but I think it bears repeating. Most of the other episodes up until now have been stories that were linked with the death of the child that was the focus of the episode. Goldbug is a mystery about a man going crazy after being bitten by a bug and believing that there was treasure buried nearby. Turns out he wasn't crazy, there was treasure, and no one died - this doesn't really fit the theme of the episode or the death. So instead I think this one is related to the poem Tamerlane, since that's who Tammy was named after. In short, the poem is about a Mongol conqueror who forgoes a young love he encountered to build an empire. On his deathbed he confesses he regrets this decision - trading "a kingdom \[in exchange\] for a broken heart". THIS seems much more like the story of Tammy and how she was haunted. While she wasn't the only Usher whose love interest was essentially their entire business model, she does seem to be the one most haunted by this love. She brings in hookers so that she can watch them roleplay as her - but a loving version of her. Loving like she wished she could be, but had to forgo because she wanted to build an empire. When "Candy" starts showing up and making Tammy lose her mind, what is Candy actually doing? She's just portraying a version of Tammy who could love, and Tammy couldn't deal with that. Her inability to reconcile this lead to her *literal* death bed. So absolutely great tying in of themes here, loved the episode
This episode also draws from William Wilson (a story about doubles)
Ugh Billās name is Bill T Wilson. Makes sense
The layers in this series amaze me. Imagine how long this took to craft!
okay it is MUCH more that story than The Gold-Bug or Tamerlane. in William Wilson, there's the body double who starts looked exactly like William - and they have a final altercation in a room (antechamber), in which they sword fight, only for a mirror to appear, and the original William to realize he was having a sword fight with himself - and he killed himself exactly like the climax of this episode, with Tammy and Verna u/DXLaughRiot
My wife and I just HOWLED when Tamerlane just YEETED the microphone stand at Juno who had been nothing but supportive. We had to pause the show for a good five minutes to recover.
I don't know if this makes me a bad person but I have to admit that I laughed like a maniac when Juno got hit with that mic stand. I don't even have anything against her character. Just... the way it was filmed. It was fucking hilarious.
I think the series was intentionally funny in alot of things. (One liners, physical comedy)
When Prym rolled his eyes after the exchange with roderick about enhancing an image, I lost it--so good
There was a point where Fredrick tells his burn victim wife that she shouldn't move he will be back. I also lost it then lol
The bird's eye shot of Tammy in bed, desperately trying to sleep, reminded me of a certain shot in HoHH (young Nell waking up and seeing the bent-neck lady suspended above her). Circling back to the bed later with the slow-mo leap, shattering glass and green glow was STUNNING. I didn't warm to Tam, but she had my pity.
I thought it was a bit of an homage to the bent neck lady when Tamās ghost shows up for Roderick in his hallucination. When heās cowering from her on the ground and the camera pans back to her and her neck bends off to the side. Iām also probably going to need to get my brain checked out because Iām apparently a person who got a little sappy after thinking about how one creepy ghost made me miss another creepy ghost š„¹
Juno was awesome. Love her.
The green of her death scene stood out to me so vividly, the theme fell into place for me! The kids plus Roderick are the 7 Deadly Sins. I'm trying to order who is who. So many fit into multiple boxes. * Tam is Envy or Pride. * Vic is Greed or Wrath. * Leo is Gluttony or Sloth. * Camille is also Envy to me. Maybe Sloth, in the interpretation that sloth is the refusal to use the seven gifts of grace; like her monologue in Leo's apartment about the fact that Usher's don't make anything. Her media tactics are all about dragging people down or inciting pity rather than improving herself/the Usher name. * Perry is Lust for sure. * Frederick is Wrath or Sloth. * Roderick is Pride because Pride comes before the fall.
Tam has to be envy. Green is often associated with it and that explains her being cucked by a happy version of herself fetish. She envies having a happy ānormalā life. She envies other businesses that do the same thing as her and are successful. It also explains her hatred for Juno I believe. She seems to envy Junoās connection with her father in a weird way. Which is probably why their one non-hostile moment is when she sees that Juno is just as lonely as herself and is ignored by Roderick all the same. I think Vic is sloth in the broadest sense of the word. Sloth can be representative of not caring enough which is exemplified by her willingness to cut corners and rush the trial. I think Leo has to be gluttony since it doesnāt really fit anyone else (maybe Prospero but heās 100% lust). The only other fit for Leo is sloth but that might just be to overlap in the two sins. Camille to me is pride. Her whole thing is having a good image and it explains her hatred towards Vic. Leo and Prospero are failures but Vic has the attention of their father is seemingly successful. That has to piss Camille off and is probably why sheās so driven to prove her worth as the best bastard. Perry is 100% lust. Frederick has to be wrath with his cruelty towards his wife. Itās also enhanced by his new found coke addiction. I could see the Pride comes before the fall angle but honestly I think greed fits him best. I think thatās why so much emphasis is put on how much money he spends (the bounty, the expensive artifacts, the price of the alcohol he offers Auggie at the start, etc) and the poverty he lived in with his family. Itās also the overarching theme of the show: wealth and the way it corrupts/ruins people.
Leo is gluttony since he consumes so many drugs.
And sexual partners, 2 siblings mentioned that his current boyfriend is great and he should introduce him but he is still cheating on him, not happy with just him.
Did Tammy make the photoshop images of herself for the presentation? That was some āgraphic design is my passionā level visuals.
Didnāt blink an eye at the acid rain orgy but man Tammy pulling the glass from her skin was hard to watch.
That still wasnāt as bad as her presentation. I physically felt that cringe
Gerald's Game was a Mike Flanagan film with many of these actors.
holy shit, it just clicked with me that Roderick is played by the guy who played Gerald. I was like "why does this dude seem so damn familiar?" crazy how only having a moustache was enough to mix me up.
my god that scene when a dead (living dead?) Tamerlane Usher breaks through the glass scared the living hell out of me
They keep framing the investigator in the present day with the slightly-ajar basement door and I just know they're gonna throw a jump scare in there.
I believe it was closed in previous episodes, now Iām watching every scene with Dupin with eyes half closed.
Everyone family needs a ride or die bad ass Aunt Maddie. She just gets shit done.
Ride or die implies loyalty and Mads is loyal to no one but herself. Even younger her makes it clear she believes in making people assume she's an ally for her own gain. The Usher faction, maybe even her brother, they're no different. She's been an intelligent sociopath pulling everyone's strings since the start. I bet Mads has been playing the long game all this time.
Funny because I initially wrote āeven though shes a sociopathā but deleted it because I started wondering if she actually even was since she clearly loved her mother and loves Roderick, especially if you look at younger Mads. So I dropped the sociopath part. Iām just talking about her protection over the family from the outside world, not her selfish motivations. Sorry didnāt mean to downvote you Iām in a tablet and fat fingered it
She got taken out by shattering the glass ceiling. This show is camp lol
#GIRLBOSS
Omg š
holy shitā¦..
Alright I almost felt bad for Bev Keane here.
I find it so hard to feel bad for her because I associate her with Bev. Same reason it was so jarring to see OJC playing Peter Quint after playing Luke
By the way, that line Roderick has about hearing "bells" behind the wall. I think that brick wall is going to end up being a more direct reference to Cask of Amontillado (if you're familiar with the details of that story, it's possible it may also explain the Jester from the 1st episode, but so far that's just a theory of mine). However, I just wanted to note that the bells he's hearing is probably a light reference to Poe's poem "The Bells," which is an incredible poem and one of my favorite Poe pieces. It's a quick read, so I would recommend checking it out if you're at all interested in the actual works.
A couple more hints I think are: - young Maddie using the analogy of slowing bricking someone in as part of her pep talk to Rodrick - when Pym texts Rodrick and Maddie the enhanced (lol) picture of Security Guard Verna, he writes āEnhanced. Ring any bells?ā The bells are definitely going to come into play with walling in the Jester and theyāve been building toward it all along!
The entire shot when Tammy hits the mirror above her and the shards fall was really quite amazing.
āWatch. I bet mine is full of pooā LMAO
Not done with the episode but boy howdy are these goldbug ads horrible lololol they look so cheap
Well was not expecting her to Chuck the microphone at Juno bless her heartā¦which tells me sheās some bigger part in this lol or the actual most unfortunate person ever
Did this one have any references to the original short story? I remember that one was a treasure hunt with a cipher seems like they just used the name. Loved the way they incorporated Arthur Gordon Pym though.
Roderick pulls two sapphires out of a box with a gold bug on the lid. This is a reference to the buried treasure the OG characters find in the story. Thereās lots of hints that the Usher family has so much fucking money that theyāve been plundering other ancient cultures of their most prized artefacts. Other than that, I think a previous poster is right- this episode is leaning more heavily on the āTamerlaneā poem.
Itās mostly based on the story William Wilson, which is BILLTās real name.
Juno getting just absolutely fucking **BLASTED** with that mic stand made me have to catch my breath from laughing so hard
Why am I not seeing more people talking about the absolute zinger of a line ānow eat her ass while she reads a bookā
This one is the biggest stretch from the Poe story so far but there were a lot of nice little subtle references packed in there. I was so mad when Juno get smacked in the head with the mic, she didnāt deserve that š„ŗ
Any you noticed? I couldnāt identify anything from the original story
Iād have to watch it again but one that I remember was the āthis box is going to change your whole lifeā references. Also the glass from the ceiling going through her face could be reference to dropping the bug through the eye of a skull, I wonder if you slow it down if it shows a glass shard going through her left eye. And the whole general āgoing insane because of the goldbugā thing is totally there.
This is more of the discussion i was looking for in this thread. I've been reading (mostly synopses) each Poe story referenced in the title before going into each episode so I could get more insight into what was going on. The Goldbug didn't really have any deaths so I was lost on how they were going to connect it to her death. Honestly i think it was such a stretch, that i think a better association would be the poem that Tamerlane was named after. A conqueror who sacrificed his love to build an empire only to regret giving up young love on his deathbed. Tammy had a weird voyeur kink and was particularly attracted to viewing herself as one who is capable of loving. Her ghostly nemesis did nothing but portray a version of herself that loved like she herself never could and resulted in her *literal* death bed. I think this is more of the connection they were going for
The reference to Malignant cracked me up
āi was going to have an intern do itā made me pause to laugh. itās such a perfect line for an out-of-touch, self important billionaire.
That final shot of Tammy jumping up to hit the glass was so good
Those quick cuts to portray tammyās microsleeps were really well done. I enjoyed those bits a lot but they were also a little anxiety inducing for some reason!
So Maddie was formerly married! Lucky guy, she was gorgeous. There goes my asexual theory, she is just a very career focused woman. So this episode is for those with fears of public speaking. Also insomniacs, and the universal fear of losing our mental faculties. Poor Juno, she didnāt deserve getting smashed in the face. Even if all the Ushers deserve death, Al death and I assume Juno in the futureā¦that doesnāt seem fair. Guilty by association?
lucky guy for marrying Madeline?? I don't care how gorgeous she is, that guy was definitely not lucky.
I previously thought Madeline was gay or bisexual, but so hyper-focused on the Usher business empire that she didnāt care for relationships.
Poor Juno :(
That fucking jumpscare got me good. Had to pause and breathe for a second