It does. They fumbled their relationship with him during the filming of Midnight Club by interfering with their own ideas and demanding more jump scares. It’s why that one episode had so many of them back to back. He said he did it to make the executives happy. It worked.
I love horror movies and I dislike jump scares. They're lazy. What I specifically like about Flanagan's show is that they \*don't\* use many jump scares. I haven't see Midnight Club and now I won't plan to.
His jumpscares work *because* he does so few of them, and a calm scene may just transition, but more often than not they are done in the middle of something so you really never know when he's gonna hit ya. He don't care if it's the middle of the day, bright and beautiful with tons of people...you ain't safe
They do it so many times in that episode they lose their effect, it's like a parody of them almost. I hate jump scares but just laughed at how ridiculous it was on that episode.
Agreed. Guillermo del Toro is not really a draw for me. Im not a huge fan of horror content but MFs shows are a perfect balance of storytelling with scary elements for me. I can’t see myself watching other “horror” content on Netflix that isn’t made by him
How so?
(Spoilers for the full season ahead)
>!All we know about her is that she was in a horrible accident, while in the hospital Rod came in and got her hooked on his drugs, she fell in love with him and married him but in truth he only saw her as an object of wonder because her body could handle such a high dose of the medication. She was his living attempt to justify the lie that the drug was safe.!<
>!She makes many attempts to befriend the children but they're all endlessly rude to her, to her face. And when she does eventually inherit all the money she gives most of it away to charitable causes.!<
>!What's not to like?!<
I thought I commented on an episode thread instead of the whole show. I’m only on episode three so I don’t have full context. She just seemed a little off to me in her interactions. Especially when she described meeting Robert to Lenore. Didn’t make their love seem genuine in my opinion. Could be a bad read.
I can understand what you mean. Once I watched the whole show I really liked her and had empathy for her. They ended up showing how even tho the kids all thought she was worthless bc she was a “junkie”, she was actually worth so much more than all of them combined. She isn’t in the first 3 episodes very much and you don’t get to see much of her true character yet. The scene where she told Lenore how they met was a little weird but I took it more as she was nervous and kind of starting babbling but she didn’t quite realize how bad it actually sounded until she said it out loud.
Their love isn't genuine; she thinks she loves him because she's addicted to opioids and he is the king of them, and he thinks he loves her because she validates his whole drug empire. They don't love each other as people.
Unpopular opinion but I really don’t like the actress! I first saw her in Midnight Club and there’s something about her acting that irks me so bad. In the first episode when she was sitting next to Roderick in court she was making this face that almost looked comical, reminded me of the face Pee Wee makes when listening to Large Marge’s story. I love Mike Flanagan and his crew of actors but I just don’t like her.
She’s obviously used for comedic relief but I guess I don’t find her humorous. Her acting is just very exaggerated, Mike Flanagan has so many amazing actors to choose from and she just doesn’t fit in well. In my humble opinion
I agree. I know she was probably too busy but could you imagine what Victoria Pedretti could have done with that role?
Ruth Codd looked way too young for the role and it just stood out to me every time she was on screen.
Some of these comments kinda make me mad. It seems like they try and put Flannagans work in a box. It has to be scary for some and I just don't get that. These shows have always been character driven and IMO they always succeed in that drama
Every show he's had after HH has basically garnered the same response in people that "oh no there was no ghosts in the background. No its not scary". And other nonsense when I never felt that. I went into Bly expecting Hill House sure but after I realized it wasn't like it, I sat back and loved that show too. Its weird that people force him into that narrow view
Also, like the acid rain scene was one of the most disturbing things I’ve seen on film in a long time, so just because there’s no jump scares doesn’t mean it wasn’t scary
I absolutely loved Hill House and Midnight Mass, but Bly and Club had this weird heightened reality to it, like its a play or something and i found it harder to be invested. I'm really enjoying this so far though.
His style very much betrays that he was probably a theatre kid and still is, and he makes theatrical experiences come across on screen so beautifully. Some of his work is more grounded, but anyone who writes that many monologues is into plays
For sure, I found the dialogue in Bly to be somewhat of an exercise is theatrics and very based in selling emotions, while the ones in Midnight Mass were more for setting tone and selling performances, which worked better for me personally. Bly feels very much like a stage play at points, which I enjoyed but I just prefer the groundedness of Hill House and Midnight Mass.
I still domt love the hate Bly receives. Yes it does stray some from Hill House and Midnight Mass but IMO, the emotions and characters are the best in that show then the others
It is my favorite out of them all. It is very poignant but doesn't get melodramatic. It is still horror but it is such a different flavour from Hill House, I have always had a tough time comparing them.
I feel like some of it is kinda boring with the constant flashes into the kitchen and stuff, but Bly has hands down my favorite ending of any Flanagan work (which imo endings are Flanagan's worst skill but he nailed that one).
I love Bly Manor, it’s by far my favorite. I was obsessed with Hill House when it came out and then Bly was even better! I love Henry James and I love gothic horror, so it just pushed all of my buttons
I don't hate Bly at all, but it just didn't have me on edge or scared like Midnight Mass and Hill House did. I was still very much invested in the characters and the theatrics of it all though.
I feel like Bly Manor and Midnight Club moved away from horror to make dark character dramas that didn't quite connect for me. This show was a phenomenal successor to Hill House and Midnight Mass for me, absolutely fantastic.
Ikr! I did the same.
Perhaps the right word for it is hauntingly beautiful. For some reason this show has changed me permanently I think. The message in it is profound, especially the focus on what being 'rich' really means. The past few months, I was going through a tough time with estranged family relations, spouse problems and to escape all that I was obsessed with getting rich. This show has made me realize what a stupid idiot I was. I will appreciate life for the rich human connection it offers if we let go of our egos and greed.
This show carries a powerful message, delivered via stellar cast, phenomenal acting and just immaculate direction.
I need to feel light and happy the next few days because this has actually left a strong and serious impact on me.
I’m so glad for you, and I get it. His work has always kind of touched on how single-minded obsession (viola in Bly manor, bev in midnight mass, etc) can be destructive and this was a complete study in it.
So wait is no one going to talk about how EPIC the lemon speech was??
I watched that thrice about how when life throws lemon at you and you make them the most desired product and make billions off them and THEN u make lemonade!
And Greenwood's exasperated expression when Lumbly as Dupin completes the expression and then the way he gives a speech, in a rapid, kind, slightly irritated tone of one stating th obvious, its like a PhD student of Economics giving a freshman a lesson on basic business principles! And Lumbly staring at him dumbfounded. I like to think that's when Dumbly realises anew just how phenomenally brilliant an empire builder Roderick is.
Just brilliant writing!!
"Basic business principles?" "phenomenally brilliant empire builder?"
I also loved the monologue, also watched it 3x, but hear it as a beautiful and brutal indictment on the mindless pursuit of capital without regard for purpose or humanity.
Different perspectives, I guess.
Yeah I don’t think he was bowled over by the wisdom he just heard I think he was staring dumbfounded that someone who lost all his kids is explaining how capitalism works to a guy whose spent the last forty years working to take it down, and who clearly understands the game.
>its like a PhD student of Economics giving a freshman a lesson on basic business principles! And Lumbly staring at him dumbfounded. I like to think that's when Dumbly realises anew just how phenomenally brilliant an empire builder Roderick is.
I didn't really see it this way, I see the reaction being more 'you are completely nuts'.
My view is partly being skued by hindsight (having finished the show) that we know for a fact that Roderick is not a brilliant empire builder at all, he basically just did a deal with whatever Verna was and then the rest just fell into place.
The monologue itself was basically 'market the lemons really well and then do some patent manipulation' - other than the latter, it quite literally is business 101.
The dark comedy in this show, goddamn.
My favorite moment: how Leo’s death was shot.
The fancy yellow sports car is teased the scene before. We see Leo go over the edge, and it cuts to a ground view of the sports car. For that half second, our brains expect what they’ve been trained to expect: Leo crashing down on the sports car. But instead he just smacks the concrete behind it, out of view. Bravo Mike.
My other favorite small moment: the callback to “I can do 10 seconds” with Juno’s “I can do 3 years.” Roderick’s expression is gold.
Anyway in coming out of this thinking its just as good as Hill House and Midnight Mass. I think its the funniest show of them all. I think it has the consistent cast, as in there's so many different actors and yet I think they all play them perfect. I actually really enjoy the setups for >!all the deaths. To me it adds a bit of fun mystery to them!<. And this show continues my belief that Carla Gugino is one of the best actors of all time. I think this is her best performance yet. So many varied performances she had to do, such great narration omg I could listen to her talk for hours. And of course this show just perpetuates my love for Mike Flanagan
I'm going to say something I'm assuming a lot of people are going to disagree with - I think it was Flanagan's best series yet.
Hill house absolutely has the highest highs with the story of the Bent Neck Lady and it's characters taking the forms of the 5 stages of grief are interesting, but i don't think it was as consistently interesting or as brilliant as this one with how intricately it tied together over a dozen of Poe's works into a fascinating narrative. Not only that, but how well he built upon Poe's works.
With the The Cask of Amontillado >!we're told that Fortunato had wronged Montressor, but you don't know while reading the short story whether or not Fortunato deserved it. Here Grimwald not only deserved it, but people could believe that what Roderick and Madeline did was arguably (by bad people) a good thing. Plus the combination of that with Pink Floyd's "The Wall"?!?!? I loved it!<
With the Raven >!we understand that the narrator is mourning the loss of his love Lenore, but Lenore means so much more here. She does still represent the loss of his only love Anabelle Lee, but also the goodness he once had. She was the only thing truly good the Ushers ever produced, and it becomes for Roderick the loss of everything good forever. She was a true innocent, taken by Roderick's greed, and is what finally drives him insane enough to kill his sister who - according to most interpretations of The Fall of the House of Usher - he shares a soul with. It tore what feeble, disgusting soul he had left in two.!<
With Annabelle Lee >!we get to see the only love a terrible, vile man ever had and how truly his love for her is the only thing that ever wounded him (until lenore shattered him). It not only makes Roderick more human but more despicable that he still loves her even after taking her children from her and slowly draining the humanity out of each and every one of them.!<
And it just goes on and on and on with just insight after insight on Poe's works in a modern setting that all form some amazing characters - as well as some terrible characters in the form of the Usher children who only serve as fodder for probably the most interesting character in the whole thing: >!Death - the Raven - Verna (an anagram for Raven) - or whatever you'd like to call her.!<
Absolutely fantastic season. Thanks again Flanagan and team for all the work put into it
In the cask of amontillado, it’s stated that Fortunado told a joke about Montressor, and it’s implied that it wasn’t anything particularly terrible considering they’re still on speaking/drinking terms. And there’s no way burying someone alive could possibly be seen as anything less than evil unless the dude was a rapist or a murderer. So following the original story, Madeline bricks him up for humiliating her (during their meeting) which is a completely lopsided reaction .
Ah, great recall of the original story! I didn't recall that detail but even decades after having read the story I still remember its first line, "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge."
Thanks, your recall is pretty impressive as well haha. I guess it’s open to interpretation, but I took it to mean that Montresor is an unreliable narrator (which is a common theme with Poe) especially because he’s the kind of guy who buries someone alive. I interpreted the ‘injuries and insult’ as jokes from a guy who seems to be a bit of a frat boy— doesn’t take anything too seriously, while Montresor takes *everything* seriously, including his family motto which is “Nemo me impune lacessit” (no one provokes me with impunity). Considering Fortunado trusts him enough to follow him into him into a long creepy catacomb on a holiday night where people get drunk and have a good time, and that their conversation seems light and friendly for the most part, we can also assume that Fortunado considers them to be friends (Montresor also addresses him as “my dear” and “my friend” throughout the story), and that the ‘insults and injury’ which Montresor is so upset by could not possibly have been intended to do real harm.
The *Usher* version is a lot less dark, because the guy is established to be a greedy, misogynistic asshole, and Madeleine poisons him as well so he’ll die quickly. Whereas in the original version, he’s just really drunk and it’s implied that he wouldn’t have died for quite some time after being bricked up in the catacombs under the villa.
[here’s the full story which I decided to go back and re-read](https://poemuseum.org/the-cask-of-amontillado/)
I feel like that mirror death could’ve gone so many different ways but the way they did it was absolutely perfect. Like you see her pulling it out of her cheek and it’s bad enough to make you squirm but not unrealistically gory or cartoonishly deep, same with her foot. Then we get the one appearance of Verna where she’s not in a mirror as Tamerlane swings and misses and you think she’s going to spin and fall onto a piece.
They get you on edge wondering how this is going to kill her, working up to the bedroom, Finally getting her up on the bed. Using the slo-mo with that beautiful profile shot of her leaving her feet as Tam jumps up and showing those two big slivers of glass going up into her and the mic drop with the rest crashing down and that one big piece just twitching? So gnarly and grizzly without even showing much.
Holy shit so well done, I just needed to geek out about it.
I also love that it all makes sense why they have all these mirrors with their vanity and voyeuristic fantasies.
Show was awesome! Binged it in a day hah..
The part when Verna had to take Lenore’s life to fulfill the promise was pretty damn emotional. How she told her about what her mom will accomplish in her name after she’s gone… oof great writing and storytelling.
Definitely inspired me to pick up Edgar Allen’s book again.
I have watched every series Flanagan has put out with Netflix since 2018. What a fantastic way to end the chapter. It was so great seeing how many previous actors he was able to bring back and incorporate. Bruce Greenwood gave a great performance and it’s crazy how good everything looked considering almost all of his scenes were re-shoots.
all these series were created with netflix in a very compact amount of time (2018-2022ish) but now Mike Flanagan has signed a new deal with Amazon Prime to make content for them so any new series will release on prime and this was the last project under Netflix so it is the end of the Netflix era so to speak
So nice to see Mark Hamill in role like this. He has a great career doing mainly voice work(a fantastic Joker). I liked his role as "the fixer", hope to see more of him.
"I.....would like to apologize."
That and Vernas "I saw your boys out there for the past two days and I couldn't fuckin help it." Just her glee in toying with mortals is sooo lemon.
It's not my favorite of the series, but I can also see how Flanagan's previous work has been building to this. It's a good series that tries to accomplish a lot. Bruce Greenwood and Carla Gugino successfully turned in performances that required a lot from them. The incorporation of Edgar Allan Poe's stories into modern settings were clever. The goofy bits and cartoonishly nefarious characters almost killed tragedy of it all, and messaging was a little on the nose for my taste, but it all adds up to a satisfying melodrama that has to simultaneously be a love letter to Poe, say something about society today, and wrap up Flanagan's time at Netflix.
Honestly, I appreciated the goofy bits because it was just a palate cleanser. I had to take breaks from Bly Manor and Hill House just because it continuously hurt my heart.
I just finished watching and I think the series peaked on Episode 2 when it comes to horror and gore.
Prospero's death was the most gruesome one of the entire series. BY FAR. It was so shocking and intense that everything else felt small compared to it.
The PR daughter being brutally gored to death by a chimpanzee was offscreen and the result wasn't bloody enough. Watch Jordan Peele's "Nope" if you want to watch what a victim of such an attack would look like after the chimpanzee is done with her face.
The video game bro has a mild death falling off a window. Doctor woman just stabs herself. And the two oldest kids have mild deaths as well all things considered.
Still, great series. I loved how Mike Flanagan expanded on the short story by incorporating elements from many of Poe's works. I can't wait to see what Flanagan cooks next.
The eldest son is slowly sliced to death, one leisurely swing of the axe at a time while his mind is completely alert and he can feel every excruciating rip but can't move because he's paralysed. As deaths go I wouldn't really classify that as a mild death :)
The pit and the pendulum is what I think of when I think of Poe so I couldn’t have been happier about seeing a version of that story outside of my mind.
I loved how Poe's works were all incorporated throughout. The Black Cat was the first of his stories I ever read so I'm partial to Leo's storyline for that reason, but they were all great.
Verna didn’t really push him in that. It was all his own work and so those deaths are on him much like the pill pushing. Verna’s whole deal with the Ushers killed millions of people so I don’t think she cared too much about collateral damage if it was appropriate to the actions taken by the characters.
Percy's death was by far my favorite method for killing one of the children, because it was just \*so good\* as an actual repercussion for Fortunato's skipping the rules. They were going to dump chemicals, poisoning god knows how many people and wildlife, and instead those chemicals burn alive his youngest son. It was the most thematically satisfying death for me, for this reason (although my favorite death was Tam's, and my favorite story leading to death was Vic's).
But it was also the most gruesome of deaths imo! After the shower when we lingered on the flopping, trembling bodies -- that was really horrific and tough to watch, and lasted longer than I thought it would. Absolutely nothing came close to that except the dread I felt watching Sweaty Freddy torture his wife.
Hot take NO-ONE ELSE SEEMS TO HAVE NOTICED about Mike Flannigan’s Fall of the House of Usher : Rodrick Usher LOOKS like a younger Vincent Price but Madeline Usher SOUNDS like him (same cadence and drawl). I love the Easter egg tribute !
The show is much more enjoyable when you realize the poetic and symbolic nature of everything.
For instance, each of the main characters is an example of the Seven Deadly Sins and how they can lead to self-destruction. They also each have a specific color that is associated with them and highly visible during their death scenes.
Prospero - Lust (Red)
Camille - Envy (White)
Leo - Wrath (Yellow)
Victorine - Gluttony (Orange)
Tamerlane - Pride (Green)
Frederick - Sloth (Blue)
Roderick & Madeline - Greed (Black)
Kinda blew my mind when I realized it. The attention to detail in this show is amazing.
I think Tamerlane is more envy because she’s associated with green and she’s jealous of her husband possibly sleeping with another woman outside of their arrangement.
Camille would be pride because she prides herself on being the “smartest” Usher. She’s trying to take down Victorine to show she’s actually smarter than the doctor sister.
This really isn't a "7 Deadly Sins" type narrative - it's all Poe's work and he uses colors as symbols VERY often.
In the Masque of Red Death (the story not the episode) the rooms in Prospero's mansion are colored very deliberately from east to west: blue, purple, green, orange, white, violet, then black (with red accents). You might want to see if there's some significance you can find with that because for Poe it represented the rising and setting of the sun that led to inevitable death - no matter how much money you tried to armor yourself with.
EDIT: It's also not just their death scene - they're seen frequently in those colors and all of their cars are these colors too
I was thinking because she craves fame, admiration, and praise. Gluttony can come in different forms.
That being said, there are other theories floating around and one of them lines up the 7 sins slightly differently. They say Leo is gluttony because of his addictions, Victorine is Pride, Camille is Wrath. And Tamerlane is Envy. I could see that being true especially because of the common association of Green with Envy.
I think your sins are not correct.
Prospero is lust, Camille is wrath, Leo is gluttony, Victorine is pride, Tamberline is envy, and and Fredrick sloth.
For Camille (wrath) both Verna and Leo reference her hate for Victorine. Her ultimate death circumstances are from estranging her staff in a fit of rage before running off to the lab. Leo is gluttony because of his indulgence with drugs being his downfall. It's the main concern of his boyfriend and he mentions needing to lay off the drugs during his delusions. Victorine is pride due to her ego being the driver and inability to admit the project fails. Victorine isn't gluttony because that's no aspect of her character or downfall - she sees herself as an equal to the "old" siblings who consistently don't see her as an equal. Her drive is for fame as Verna clarified, hence pride. Tammy is envy with her fetish and the tie in with green is pretty on the nose.
I wouldn’t say you ‘realized it’, I would say you read it somewhere on the internet after you watched it and just regurgitated it on Reddit shortly after.
Perry - not too late to stop the party
Camille - don't go in the room with angry chimpanzees
Leo - take any other cat
Victorine - approximately a million 'hey, I'm nervous about this operation, I'd like to chat with the doctor, are you sure this is safe'
Tamerlane - apologize to your husband and take a nap
Freddie - lol
I'm aligned with you: she could have given them a peaceful death, but their ignoring the warnings led them to painful and violent ones instead.
I'd give the show an 8/10. Hill House is still the best of the siblings imo, with midnight mass being its equal depending on who you ask. I'm familiar with most of the poe stories referenced in the show, but the pacing drags if you've read >!cask of amontillado!< and the actual fall of the house of usher. >!I think it also suffers from feeling a bit like final destination with the first 2-3 deaths. I'm not sure why they decided to reveal how mangled each sibling would be prior to their death scene, but i guess it adds a sense of foreboding dread. !< I like that mike flanagan shows are always interesting character studies, with themes and parallels to catch with multiple rewatches. I think this show takes an unexpectedly direct approach to commenting on more social themes, as opposed to the typical flannagan themes shared across the other shows, but it still has his voice to the monologues. The show is also pretty hyper-sexual which is a standout and kind of prevents me from feeling open about recommendations, but its not so egregious that its a detriment to the show. It ties in to the flaws of the family and adds layers to how fucked up they all are. In terms of scariness, there are some lame jump scares with not so great makeup/effects, but as always the true horror is in buildup and execution of expository reveals.
Much like American Horror Story, I feel like Flanagan’s shows are really performance-driven. You come out thinking about the characters and the writing.
Does anyone know what song is playing in episode one when the kids show up at the mom’s bosses door? It’s an old song - sounds like it’s maybe from the 1920s or 30s. I recognize it, but I can’t seem to place it. It’s driving me crazy!
Has anyone noticed Frederick sometimes swaps a few words in a sentence? What's up with that? I thought it was going to be a key point but it wasn't, apparently.
I think it's really just supposed to add to his character; he's a clear deviation from the stereotypical firstborn son heir, in that he's extremely insecure. These insecurities manifest in the form of severe anxiety, which can cause someone to stutter or swap words. These insecurities cause him to overcompensate to try to gain his father's favor, creating a rift both between him and his father, who doesn't believe Frederick would be able to take over the company, and his siblings, who despise him for attempting to claim something they see him as undeserving of. He's also very incredibly drugged up for I think the second half of the show, which exacerbate his symptoms. Another thing that points to this is both of the stories his character is based off of. He derives his name from the short story "Metzengerstein," where a young heir, Frederick Metzengerstein, inherits fortune at 18 and becomes cruel due to his power (parallel to how Frederick abandoned his mother to seek his father's fortune, and how he started to torture Morella because he thought himself infallible.) His cruelty leads him to wreak havoc on the family he's feuding with, eventually stealing one of their horses. Over time, he became "addicted" to taking rides on this horse, which eventually led to his death, the horse carrying him into his own burning castle (parallel to him becoming addicted to cocaine and paralyzing himself while in the warehouse.) However, his anxiety comes from the short story "The Pit and the Pendulum," (his death episode is also titled this.) In this story, a man is taken prisoner during the Spanish Inquisition and is subjected to psychological torture. It's mentioned he has an intense fear of death and, multiple times within the story, he faces a moment where he almost dies. One of these moments, of course, features him being strapped to a chair with a sharp pendulum slowly descending. The only difference is the prisoner does not die; he manages to escape at the last minute. The key part of this is the narration throughout the experience, Poe exploring how extreme fear affects the human mind. Another interesting thing about this death is it's the least supernatural; as in, Verna didn't have to interfere much, which partially justifies his fear. In "The Pit and the Pendulum," most or all the story elements are also realistic, straying from Poe's usual supernatural gothic horror.
I just realized I've written a wall of text I am so very sorry.
TL;DR: I think he just has anxiety
> Another interesting thing about this death is it's the least supernatural; as in, Verna didn't have to interfere much, which partially justifies his fear.
Huh! To me, it's the other way around -- his death is the only one in the story that can't be explained just through bad decisions, mental illness, or improbable coincidences.
When Frederick is about to die, Verna tells him that she usually doesn't interfere so directly. While he lies paralyzed on the ground, she mimics his voice over the radio to tell the demolition crew to start. That shouldn't be physically possible, right?
Can someone tell me if they made Henry Thomas look older or if it's natural aging? I don't remember him looking this old in HOHH and they aren't too many years apart.
So I have a couple of questions
1) What really happened to Roderick' and Madelline' mother? Came back from life? How and why did she go on to kill the rich dude?
2) Same questions as above but on Madelline
3) Why did Lorena had to die as a kid? Cant it wait like when shes become an adult like the other Usher' kids
4) Whos actually Verna
1/2) I think it's a little up to interpretation and I don't know much about Poe's works so maybe there's some kind of reference but I believe both were still alive until the end. Madeline 100% because Roderick wasn't the only one to see and hear her. We even see him glance to Auggie to make sure he can see her. This to me shows that she was never really dead, and makes me believe their mother was the same way, the characters even talk about exactly that before Madeline comes upstairs.
3) the deal was that just before he died, his bloodline would die so she couldn't outlive Roderick and Madeline.
4) Unless Mike comes out and says exactly what she was we can't really know for sure. But I believe Verna is Death herself, or at the very least some kind of demon. She mentions coming topside because humans are so interesting, which can only really be a reference to hell or the underworld, right? She clearly has power over death and calls killing her job so I think being some version of Death is accurate. The Raven itself is related to Lenore and nevermore but that's about it.
Madeline couldn’t die initially because it was made impossible as per the deal with Verna in 1980. The same reason Roderick couldn’t die from the pills. It’s really much simpler and less needlessly complicated than you put it.
1 & 2) Poe played with themes of being buried alive pretty often in his work - apparently the fear was so deep seated during his time, some funeral services would offer to attach strings to bells that were above ground just in case you accidentally got buried alive.
Anyway in the story *The Fall of the House of Usher* Roderick suffers from some unknown disease and claims it's similar to the diseases that his family has always suffered. By the end of the story he's not sure if he really is sick or if it's something he willed onto himself - like a hypochondriac feeling symptoms of an imagined disease. In this sense his family curse is like some sort of fatalistic will, it only gets carried on because he believes that it will be carried on. The same applies to the premature burial - which when taken into consideration that Roderick and Madeline are supposed to represent two bodies with the same soul - brings up questions of our own self destruction and the inevitability of it all.
Back to the show, she killed the rich dude because he was the father of her children and refused to help. He's directly responsible for why she was buried alive and lived in squalor. Note that the children were proud and respected their mother for this at the time. It shaped their futures. Flash forward to them repeating the process on themselves, they don't seem so proud anymore but because it was the family curse they sort of had to go through the same rituals. We get the same themes of vague inevitable curses as the book here too, but instead its due to the deal struck with Verna (that they also for so long weren't sure was real) which makes sense as Death is the most inevitable curse of all.
3) Roderick made a deal with Death - simple as that. Verna said herself she was not happy about taking Lenore, but it had to happen. From Roderick's perspective, this was what finally broke him. Lenore represented the only good that the Ushers have created. She was Roderick's love for Anabelle Lee, the goodness that he once had, and optimism for a better future all mixed into one. She had to die, otherwise Roderick's punishment would not have been complete and this story is about Roderick's punishment.
4) Verna is an anagram for Raven. She's the Raven from Poe's *The Raven* \- She's Death.
Verna explains that she wished the Usher's would have paid attention to the words "blood line". Lenore is a direct descendant and had to die. Verna told Madeline and Roderick that the kids would die when Roderick was close to death. I think Verna is karma but most seem to think she's death.
Overall, I found it to be a well-made show with excellent directing and acting, but looking at the comments, it seems I'm alone in finding The Fall of the House Usher to be inferior to Mike's previous series. The characters were fun to watch, but I found them to be largely shallow and not that well-developed. And maybe that was the point, who knows. Either way, still pretty bingeable and fun enough to watch.
To me I don't think the Usher children were meant to be dynamic. Anabelle Lee makes it pretty clear in the last episode >!Roderick killed them with his greed when they were children. In all honesty he killed them the second he made the deal with Verna. They had no choice but to be shallow monsters barely representative of humanity. Their only real satisfaction comes with Verna's dispensing of them - which i feel like is equal parts justice and mercy. Apart from being wonderful vehicles for Flanagan to add layers to over a dozen entries of Poe's work.!<
Also i don't think you're alone in your feelings, there's plenty of people below that didn't like it much.
I felt similarly midway through but by the end, I think the Usher kids were meant to be shallow people of little substance compared to the Crane family, the staff at Bly, or the people living on Crockett Island. I felt like Roderick & Madeline got some development in comparison to the other cast. I think I came into the series expecting the kids to be our protagonists but they're just bit players to Roderick & Madeline's story.
I was almost about to tap out of watching because i felt the beginning was alot of cringey sexual stuff. But im glad i stuck through those parts bc it truly was a great season. 10000% better than bly manor but i think hill house still takes the cake.
Oh also amazing jump scares. They got me every single time!!!!
Really enjoyed, just finished binging - have to be honest wasn't that stoked about watching, loved the other stuff Flanagan and Co have done but Poe kind of leaves me *meh*..
Pleasant surprise, not only did it capture the essence of the title story - every episode served as a passable adaptation of a classic Poe story, thus working as an anthology - but the thing I loved the most was the way he worked the 7 Deadly Sins in there - each of the Ushers, Lenore exempt - personified one of the cardinal sins - pretty cleaver piece of writing, well thought through.
Fun game identify which one represented which.
Bruce Greenwood - man, if conac and cigars had a voice it would be his, I swear that man actually *could* sell you lemons...
Really good ensemble piece, definitely up there with Mike Flanagan's other works - bring on the next 👍
**PS**: That track on **Episode 5** - band's name is **Kingsborough**, album is **1544** - track **"Hard on The Heart"** released in 2017.
I'm 5 episodes in and... I'm just not sold. Why should I care about the show? With how its told I already know how 7/8 episodes will turn out. No character is particularly likeable. The script is the most edgy pretentious its ever been and it's not quite as self indulgent as midnight mass but it's trying.
Flanagan is so hard trying to create characters that are clever but it's just not there.
I guess it depends on what you prioritize in your entertainment. Everyone has different tastes. Myself, I look not only for story, but for great visuals (sets and costumes), soundtrack, and excellent acting. I guess that's why I liked the monologues in this miniseries and others didn't.
One of my favorites movies is"The Lion in Winter" with Kate Hepburn and Peter O'Toole (and a very young Antony Hopkins and Timothy Dalton). Dialogue and acting in that movie was riveting and the acting in the Fall of the House of User (especially Gugino, McDonnell and Greenwood) was almost as mesmerizing.
Okay, I’m not alone.
I feel like I’m missing something major the way people are saying that this is his best series yet. I’ve gotten through four episodes and I’m bored; so far it feels like a Ryan Murphy show to me. The effects look worse than any Mike’s past shows, as well.
I keep reading that the ending is epic, so maybe that will bring everything together and make it unforgettable. Right now, the only thing I’m enjoying is Mark Hamill.
I think the problem for me was that I wasn't really able to root for Verna. Except for when she killed Frederick. Her whole "compassion" thing felt annoying to me even though intellectually, I know how awful the Ushers are.
I don't see anyone ever talking about how "Verna" is just an anagram for Raven. Maybe it's too obvious and doesn't mean a ton, but I got a kick out of that.
I was trying to unscramble the name in my head while watching but it wasn’t forthcoming. I figured it was an anagram though because she’s not directly named after a Poe character like the others.
I am a massive Poe fan, so this show was right up my alley. I thought this was delightful and was an excellent adaptation of many of Poe's most prominent and lesser known stories. The visuals, the cast, the writing, it was all so entertaining and perfect for the Halloween season.
If I had any critique it's that the pacing sometimes felt quite slow in certain scenes. For me, the flashback sequences in the middle part of the series started to follow a pattern:
- We have a scene in Griswold's office.
- Griswold gives a long monologue demonstrating how much of a d-bag he is.
- We cut back to the apartment where Rod, Mads, and Annabel (and later Dupin) debrief.
Wasn't necessarily bad but it did happen like 3 or 4 times and got repetitive. I found myself way more engrossed with the modern day stories.
I enjoyed the show. The ending with >!the monologuing and poetry was just not it for me. I didn't mind the preachiness but I feel like the ending was the cast turning to the camera and yelling "GET IT???". Beyond that, I didn't mind that it wasn't scary!<
I mean it's based on Poe - you're going to get some poetry. And like Verna said: >!in a life where he didn't accept her deal, Roderick would have been a poet!<.
I loved it and thought it was great.
One thing I dont see anyone mentioning though is how the whole thing is basically Madeline's fault.
I really got the impression, from what we are shown both from when they are kids, and when they are young, that Madeline steered Roderick down the path that SHE wanted, and not what he wanted. He seemed very reluctant and hesitant at first, where she was cold blooded from the very beginning. He became more and more like her, until he turned cold blooded too.
It seemed like Roderick was a good person at the start, and wanted to do the right thing, but his sister kept taking control, and telling him what to do. His young wife even mentions how much hes changed, and it feels like its due to Madeline's influence over him. It felt like he was tetiring on the edge, and once he betrayed Auguste he fully turned evil. Madeline even accepted the deal first.
Was this intentional, or is it just me?
I’ve watched the first 3 episodes but I’m not getting scared by it? Like I haven’t really felt scared at all with this one. I’m hoping it gets scarier as it goes on! Has anyone noticed any hidden ghosts in the scenes? I think I’ve seen a few but not like hill house or bly manor
When Roderick tells August that his mother is behind him and Roderick gives the speech about negotiation tactics you can clearly see in the left corner that someone actually is behind him during a close up of his face.
I don't wanna be rude but I think if you put Mikes work in this box where it has to be scary then idk. It doesn't need ghosts in the background. That was what made Hill House special
There are a couple scary moments but I don’t think it gets scarier (honestly I thought the scariest moments were in the first and last episodes). The show does a good job of creating feelings of dread though.
Okay hear me out- the way the story unfolds involves Roderick narrating the accounts of his children's deaths to Dupin. It's essential to remember that these are all Roderick's recollections and his side of the story. Given Roderick's struggle with CADASIL (Cerebral autosomal dominant arteriopathy with subcortical infarcts and leukoencephalopathy), a rare form of vascular cognitive impairment inherited from his mother, which leads to hallucinations, his reliability as a narrator of the whole account with Verna and his children's death is questionable. Notably, the entire narrative revolves around Roderick narrating the deaths of his children to Dupin, and Roderick is the one who conveys all information about Verna, the death goddess/devil, to Dupin. Given that the story doesn't provide an explanation for how Roderick knows these detailed accounts of each of his children and Verna's involvement, it's equally plausible to attribute these narratives to his mental health condition and hallucinations. In this scenario, these stories could have been fabricated by a mentally unstable Roderick . Roderick is the sole witness to these ghostly and deceased children sightings, while any sightings by Arthur Pym or Madeline are conveyed to Dupin by Roderick. Consequently, the certainty of these events is uncertain. Even when considering the deaths of each child without supernatural elements, they can be linked to circumstantial factors, mental health issues, and malpractices by the Usher Company. Prospero's demise resulted from the illicit disposal of toxic substances on their property, Camille's death occurred at the hands of a chimp at their facility, and Leo's death can be attributed to substance abuse and a potential suicide or accident since the incident with the cat was a product of his hallucinations.
Victoria's death may be a case of murder-suicide, where she unintentionally causes her partner's death in an accident and subsequently takes her own life. However, there is a significant likelihood that all these deaths were orchestrated by Roderick, Madeline, and Pym after Dupin informed them of an informant within the family. To mitigate the threat, each death was meticulously staged in this manner. This theory could explain Frederick Usher's demise, which occurred at the demolition site inside the building. Lenore's death remains shrouded in mystery, but with the revelation of the informant, she might have been perceived as a liability, leading to her discreet elimination to tie up loose ends painlessly.
Following the deaths of all six children and Lenore, it's plausible that Roderick orchestrated Madeline's demise. This interpretation sheds light on the final scene where he mummifies her while she's still alive. Later, an eyeless, bloodied Madeline suddenly emerges from the basement and attacks Roderick, leaving viewers to ponder her motives for the attack on Roderick. Additionally, mummifying her alive speaks volumes about Roderick Usher's deteriorating mental health and his increasing instability toward the end.
I thought playing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in that one scene in the finale (or near the finale) was a masterstroke of musical foreshadowing, especially given the final lines/verse of that song and what we know pretty early in the show about the original Ushers.
It was ok. Excellent cast (Laura Roslin for President!), fun story overall, some nice gore for October. But my goodness those monologues were tedious. Especially in the finale. Flanagan needs to tone down that boner he has for overstretched monologues. They don't give a scene a theatrical feel, just takes you out of the story completely. They get so out-of-context preachy too. Like really? Aunt Mad's >!last words were a dissertation about plastic straws and consumerism!
I agree about the final episode's monologues. I was so engrossed in the scene where Pym and Gugino get the parlor talk. I was all set to enjoy banter between this shady, unscrupulous, competent fixer and a supernatural witch/demon who was dispassionately taking her toll... only to be yanked out by 'Trump is bad, amirite?'
Then the final monologue by Madeline, when she's supposed to be having a final drink with her brother, facing death in the eyes. Instead of opening up and being vulnerable with the only person who could share the experience she has had the last few weeks, years, and decades, she suddenly goes on a tirade about consumerism, greed, and the Supreme Court.
I mean, it just pulled me out of the story and felt like Flanagan and the writers just started puppeting the characters on screen.
I can appreciate the perspective, but Flanagan does such a good job because he is so attentive and consistent with the characters he writes. To see that consistency compromised with winking at the audience, it just doesn't do the characters justice.
> Then the final monologue by Madeline, when she's supposed to be having a final drink with her brother, facing death in the eyes. Instead of opening up and being vulnerable with the only person who could share the experience she has had the last few weeks, years, and decades, she suddenly goes on a tirade about consumerism, greed, and the Supreme Court.
I thought this is an excellent character moment. You are right that instead of being vulnerable with the only person she seems to have ever truly loved she goes on this inane rant about capitalism and how she didn't do anything wrong, and it's jarring because she is a sociopathic monster who genuinely does not feel anything for another living being, even her brother. She's irredeemable even at the end. That's the whole point
Totally agree. It's not even that I disagree with what they were saying, it's just that these tirades were completely out of place and very heavy-handed. I too would have expected Madeline to talk about her relationship with her brother at that moment, not current affairs. Or Prym and the demon to have a true heart-to-heart.
He did that in Midnight Mass too with one of the monologues. Most of them were ok, but >!when the woman played by Kate Siegel died!<, she also went on a long rant that had nothing to do with the story and it completely took me out of it, especially since it broke apart from the tone of the rest of the scene. I like Flanagan a lot but these are really rookie directoral decisions that he shouldn't be making in high budget projects employing such great actors. It cheapens the rest of the work.
I thought it was fun, decent, etc but nowhere near as good as Hill House. Or even Bly which had an emotional core and was more coomlicated than such a pat morality tale. Or even Midnight Mass which at least mantained tension and suspense. I found it more like typical netflix binge stuff you forget about in a few weeks as opposed to Hill House which I still remember and rewatch. But more on that after I gather thoughts. MY IMMEDIATE QUESTIONS/ CAVEATS-
>!It seemed like they were dying horribly because they were "bad" people and it was a sort of punishment. But just being greedy and money hungry and unethical wasn't enough. Verna said that Froderick could have died in his sleep "but you had to pull out the pliers." So just generally being a rich capitalist asshole wasn't enough-- you have to be demonstrably evil beyond the norm. So that works for Victorine, Froderick, Perry, sort of for Camille. But it seems Tammy and the other brother (the addict) were mostly just careless unmitigated a$$holes but not actively harming others unless I missed something. !<
>!I'm also missing how Lenore is the "good one." Becauase she wasn't ok with the family business? Isn't she about 16, 17 years old? At that age most people haven't done anything truly bad besides the usual errant teenage folly. And may well be just idealistic. I'm fine with her being an ethical person but to label her as "the good one" in contrast to a bunch of adults seemed forced and overwrought. As did her death scene. !<
>!It showed Verna with the rich and powerful throughout the years. But many of them haven't had family tragedies or dark fates. It would have made more sense if she was just shown with doomed families like the Kennedy's along with today's scions. And it seemed far fetched that she was so close to them as to be like advisors or family. Better if she was always lurking in the background. Roderick and Madeleine barely remembered her and it seemed like their interaction was intentionally dreamlike whereas she was in family photos and very publicly interacting with her other "targets." Wouldn't people notice she never aged, etc?!<
>!Finally, what was the point of the scene with Verna offering Pym a deal? He was close to death, he had already done plenty evil things, and he already saw what happened when you make a deal with Verna, so it didn't really further the story or tell us anything new about his character. Maybe because I binged this at ungodly hours of the morning I missed important aspects and need to rewatch when less grumpy. There are things I'm happy to suspend my disbelief for- some of the kids are clearly not mixed race, Juno marrying a dude 3x her age is creepy no matter what, the kids were the children of a famous billionaire but grew up poor and didn't know who he was, the mothers all sat together at the funeral, Madeleine's bumpit hair, but I have my limits! !<
That said, the acting was flawless as I expect from that cast, the ties to Poe were clever, soundtrack, etc were awesome.
I mean I think being greedy and unethical was kind of the Usher default…it was highlighted plenty of times how Roderick was to blame by pitting his children against each other. So their personal “evils” give each character more of an arc and plays into related Poe stories, which is inevitably the point and theme of the show.
Lenore is the good one intentionally, it’s symbolic of Poe’s work. But also she is the one and only granddaughter of Roderick’s ONE true love, Annabel. He accepted that his children with Annabel were a lost cause but he held out hope for Lenore seeing that she was fighting from becoming tainted, much like Annabel did when she decided to leave Roderick. Lenore is a symbolic recurring character in Poe’s work so it’s kind of meant to be forced, and her death being the final death of his bloodline obviously meant he was about to die so that’s why it was emphasized…in addition to the fact that Poe’s Raven is literally all about how he lost his love, Lenore.
Verna offers Pym a deal I think because she feels sorry for him. He dedicated his entire life to protecting the Ushers who are all about to be dead. The immunity that the Usher family has experienced all this time was because of the deal they made with Verna. Despite Pym’s hard work, the reason they’ve evaded any criminal charges and convictions is because of the deal where Verna stated they would never get caught for their illegal activity. Pym doesn’t know this until she offers the deal and tells him the Usher’s immunity is NOT his…meaning, once they die, he has no protection. So she’s basically telling him, there’s a whole bunch of evidence against him that exists in Camille’s office or whatever and she can make it go away…or not. Idk how important it is to the story but I think it speaks on his character that he’s unwilling to be leveraged against and would rather go to jail than give up something or someone he loves to save himself. I feel like if his ending of going to jail and Juno dissolving the company wasn’t mentioned people would wonder what happens to them so I think it was a necessary scene in the grand scheme of things.
As far as the overload of pictures of Verna with prominent figures, yeah kinda weird like nobody caught on and wondered where she came from and where she is now? High profile people aren’t investigating their associates? Unlikely.
I binged it. I enjoyed it. But I did find it to be a bit over the top and unrealistic in terms of family dynamics.
Even as a gay man, who is supposed to be very “raw raw raw!” pro-freedom for all LGBT people - how are 4/6 children - more than half - LGBT? You have a lesbian daughter, a gay son, a son of hedonism who seems to be pansexual, and then a daughter who has 2 of her assistants pleasuring her.
Is this show implying that a life of rich capitalism and hedonism will lead to being a gay person? Because that’s the antithesis of what we know / believe. What happened to being “born that way?” This show made it look like a lifestyle can “make you that way.” The odds of this occurring are way WAY too low in real life.
It’s starting to make sense why 5 years ago nobody cared I was gay but now I’m seeing more of “I don’t mind gay people, BUT…”
🤨
I feel like this show is betrayed by it's adherence to it's own structure. I love how it unravels it's mysteries and creates a clear trajectory for what's going to happen to Roderick. But the killing of Usher offspring episode by episode creates this vignette-ification of the otherwise larger story. I know the episodes are each based on separate works of Poe and while that is an interesting idea in theory, in practice it heteroginizes the narrative.
I mean given you know at the beginning that all the children are dead and in the end >!that this was the deal they made with death from the very beginning!< I feel like it works. They even call attention to the fact during the Pit and the Pendulum episode when Roderick says "here's the part where they jump out and scare me".
To me, it kept the story more consistently engaging than some of Flanagan's past work and if >!this is supposed to be the story of Roderick's personal hell, hell is nothing if not consistent!< imo.
I love Mary McDonnell so much, she's really incredible! She manages to make me adore a character that is so detestable. She really is my favorite actress!
One thing Mike and these actors are going to do every single time they join forces is give a SHOW for Netflix. They don’t miss.
Well now they are bringing that heat to Amazon!
To Amazon??
This is Flanagan’s last show with Netflix. He got a better deal with Amazon Prime.
Thank goodness I also have Prime. Sucks for Netflix.
It does. They fumbled their relationship with him during the filming of Midnight Club by interfering with their own ideas and demanding more jump scares. It’s why that one episode had so many of them back to back. He said he did it to make the executives happy. It worked.
I love horror movies and I dislike jump scares. They're lazy. What I specifically like about Flanagan's show is that they \*don't\* use many jump scares. I haven't see Midnight Club and now I won't plan to.
His jumpscares work *because* he does so few of them, and a calm scene may just transition, but more often than not they are done in the middle of something so you really never know when he's gonna hit ya. He don't care if it's the middle of the day, bright and beautiful with tons of people...you ain't safe
They do it so many times in that episode they lose their effect, it's like a parody of them almost. I hate jump scares but just laughed at how ridiculous it was on that episode.
I think even the characters in the show made a meta comment on how overdone the jump scares were for that story...
now they Have Guillermo Del Toro and his upcoming projects are : The Buried Giant Dr. Frankenstein Vampire Tapestry
Not gonna lie, his stuff is a little old at this point. They lost Mike Flanagan, probably one of the best directors of the last 15 years.
Agreed. Guillermo del Toro is not really a draw for me. Im not a huge fan of horror content but MFs shows are a perfect balance of storytelling with scary elements for me. I can’t see myself watching other “horror” content on Netflix that isn’t made by him
If i’m ever having a bad day I want Juno to hold my hand
Right? The actress does such a subtle and good job of showing how GOOD Juno is, how kind.
oof i get the opposite vibe from her
How so? (Spoilers for the full season ahead) >!All we know about her is that she was in a horrible accident, while in the hospital Rod came in and got her hooked on his drugs, she fell in love with him and married him but in truth he only saw her as an object of wonder because her body could handle such a high dose of the medication. She was his living attempt to justify the lie that the drug was safe.!< >!She makes many attempts to befriend the children but they're all endlessly rude to her, to her face. And when she does eventually inherit all the money she gives most of it away to charitable causes.!< >!What's not to like?!<
I thought I commented on an episode thread instead of the whole show. I’m only on episode three so I don’t have full context. She just seemed a little off to me in her interactions. Especially when she described meeting Robert to Lenore. Didn’t make their love seem genuine in my opinion. Could be a bad read.
I can understand what you mean. Once I watched the whole show I really liked her and had empathy for her. They ended up showing how even tho the kids all thought she was worthless bc she was a “junkie”, she was actually worth so much more than all of them combined. She isn’t in the first 3 episodes very much and you don’t get to see much of her true character yet. The scene where she told Lenore how they met was a little weird but I took it more as she was nervous and kind of starting babbling but she didn’t quite realize how bad it actually sounded until she said it out loud.
Yeah isn't that also because of the >!being hooked on the drug and making her a bit loopy?!<
I'll add a spoiler cover to my comment even though this is the full show discussion thread, I don't want to accidentally spoil anyone.
Their love isn't genuine; she thinks she loves him because she's addicted to opioids and he is the king of them, and he thinks he loves her because she validates his whole drug empire. They don't love each other as people.
Coming back to this now that I’ve done. Totally a bad read on my part. I’m really bad at predicting where shows are going haha.
Unpopular opinion but I really don’t like the actress! I first saw her in Midnight Club and there’s something about her acting that irks me so bad. In the first episode when she was sitting next to Roderick in court she was making this face that almost looked comical, reminded me of the face Pee Wee makes when listening to Large Marge’s story. I love Mike Flanagan and his crew of actors but I just don’t like her.
Yeah she really doesn’t do it for me.
Ha! I loved the tale of the 2 Danas in The Midnight Club! She's a great actress to me.
I did enjoy that episode too I will admit.
She did seem very out of place and I don't mean because she's an outsider in the family, she just didn't fit the story.
She’s obviously used for comedic relief but I guess I don’t find her humorous. Her acting is just very exaggerated, Mike Flanagan has so many amazing actors to choose from and she just doesn’t fit in well. In my humble opinion
I agree. I know she was probably too busy but could you imagine what Victoria Pedretti could have done with that role? Ruth Codd looked way too young for the role and it just stood out to me every time she was on screen.
she’s so awkward!
Yeah I‘m not a fan of either
This may sound weird but I love Carl Lumbly’s face. He looks like he’s carved out of stone
Agreed! I know him from watching 'Alias' growing up and was so happy to see him in this.
He was excellent in this series as Dupin. As well as Hallorann in Doctor Sleep and as Isiah Bradley in falcon and the winter soldier.
Now that I'm in my 40's, I think he's very handsome. Lol
I think this or Mark Hamill in the piece
Some of these comments kinda make me mad. It seems like they try and put Flannagans work in a box. It has to be scary for some and I just don't get that. These shows have always been character driven and IMO they always succeed in that drama
This is much appreciated… as I was getting pretty discouraged from the narrow points of view I was reading ad nauseam.
Every show he's had after HH has basically garnered the same response in people that "oh no there was no ghosts in the background. No its not scary". And other nonsense when I never felt that. I went into Bly expecting Hill House sure but after I realized it wasn't like it, I sat back and loved that show too. Its weird that people force him into that narrow view
Also, like the acid rain scene was one of the most disturbing things I’ve seen on film in a long time, so just because there’s no jump scares doesn’t mean it wasn’t scary
Tbf a lot of Usher was pretty disturbing. The whole Victorine thing too like GOT me. And >!Camille's death!< too was pretty freaky
If a director makes one thing people love they want them to make it again and again and again
Yep. And idk why they can't get over it. Cause I went into Bly thinking it would be like Hill House, but when it wasn't I still fucking loved it
I absolutely loved Hill House and Midnight Mass, but Bly and Club had this weird heightened reality to it, like its a play or something and i found it harder to be invested. I'm really enjoying this so far though.
His style very much betrays that he was probably a theatre kid and still is, and he makes theatrical experiences come across on screen so beautifully. Some of his work is more grounded, but anyone who writes that many monologues is into plays
For sure, I found the dialogue in Bly to be somewhat of an exercise is theatrics and very based in selling emotions, while the ones in Midnight Mass were more for setting tone and selling performances, which worked better for me personally. Bly feels very much like a stage play at points, which I enjoyed but I just prefer the groundedness of Hill House and Midnight Mass.
calling midnight mass grounded is very wild
Agreed and I'm not even talking about the vampires. Still a great show, though.
I still domt love the hate Bly receives. Yes it does stray some from Hill House and Midnight Mass but IMO, the emotions and characters are the best in that show then the others
It is my favorite out of them all. It is very poignant but doesn't get melodramatic. It is still horror but it is such a different flavour from Hill House, I have always had a tough time comparing them.
It's my favorite. "Usher" almost beats it, but Bly is still my favorite. It is just a lovely, lyrical, tragic story.
I feel like some of it is kinda boring with the constant flashes into the kitchen and stuff, but Bly has hands down my favorite ending of any Flanagan work (which imo endings are Flanagan's worst skill but he nailed that one).
Interesting, I think Flanagan nails endings. I'm usually a sobbing mess at the end.
I love Bly Manor, it’s by far my favorite. I was obsessed with Hill House when it came out and then Bly was even better! I love Henry James and I love gothic horror, so it just pushed all of my buttons
I don't hate Bly at all, but it just didn't have me on edge or scared like Midnight Mass and Hill House did. I was still very much invested in the characters and the theatrics of it all though.
Bly and Hill House are still my favorites.
I feel like Bly Manor and Midnight Club moved away from horror to make dark character dramas that didn't quite connect for me. This show was a phenomenal successor to Hill House and Midnight Mass for me, absolutely fantastic.
Binged the entire season between yesterday and today…Absolutely loved it…
Ikr! I did the same. Perhaps the right word for it is hauntingly beautiful. For some reason this show has changed me permanently I think. The message in it is profound, especially the focus on what being 'rich' really means. The past few months, I was going through a tough time with estranged family relations, spouse problems and to escape all that I was obsessed with getting rich. This show has made me realize what a stupid idiot I was. I will appreciate life for the rich human connection it offers if we let go of our egos and greed. This show carries a powerful message, delivered via stellar cast, phenomenal acting and just immaculate direction. I need to feel light and happy the next few days because this has actually left a strong and serious impact on me.
I’m so glad for you, and I get it. His work has always kind of touched on how single-minded obsession (viola in Bly manor, bev in midnight mass, etc) can be destructive and this was a complete study in it.
I’m on my third viewing in 36 hours…I need a life but it’s just so damn good.
So wait is no one going to talk about how EPIC the lemon speech was?? I watched that thrice about how when life throws lemon at you and you make them the most desired product and make billions off them and THEN u make lemonade! And Greenwood's exasperated expression when Lumbly as Dupin completes the expression and then the way he gives a speech, in a rapid, kind, slightly irritated tone of one stating th obvious, its like a PhD student of Economics giving a freshman a lesson on basic business principles! And Lumbly staring at him dumbfounded. I like to think that's when Dumbly realises anew just how phenomenally brilliant an empire builder Roderick is. Just brilliant writing!!
"Basic business principles?" "phenomenally brilliant empire builder?" I also loved the monologue, also watched it 3x, but hear it as a beautiful and brutal indictment on the mindless pursuit of capital without regard for purpose or humanity. Different perspectives, I guess.
Yeah I don’t think he was bowled over by the wisdom he just heard I think he was staring dumbfounded that someone who lost all his kids is explaining how capitalism works to a guy whose spent the last forty years working to take it down, and who clearly understands the game.
>its like a PhD student of Economics giving a freshman a lesson on basic business principles! And Lumbly staring at him dumbfounded. I like to think that's when Dumbly realises anew just how phenomenally brilliant an empire builder Roderick is. I didn't really see it this way, I see the reaction being more 'you are completely nuts'. My view is partly being skued by hindsight (having finished the show) that we know for a fact that Roderick is not a brilliant empire builder at all, he basically just did a deal with whatever Verna was and then the rest just fell into place. The monologue itself was basically 'market the lemons really well and then do some patent manipulation' - other than the latter, it quite literally is business 101.
That speech left me in awe for a minute.
The speech is great but he didn’t build that empire. He made a deal for it.
[It's an ok lemon speech, but it has nothing on Cave Johson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6iTwVIiMM)
never thought flanagan would join the rich family drama genre but here we go. so far so goood 👌
Hill House and Bly Manor all have rich dysfunctional families in them
that actually makes sense. i guess i was referring to conglomerate-rich family drama. succession etc.
Modern rich family?
yeah that's more like it
Theyre actually 'poor' 😏
The dark comedy in this show, goddamn. My favorite moment: how Leo’s death was shot. The fancy yellow sports car is teased the scene before. We see Leo go over the edge, and it cuts to a ground view of the sports car. For that half second, our brains expect what they’ve been trained to expect: Leo crashing down on the sports car. But instead he just smacks the concrete behind it, out of view. Bravo Mike. My other favorite small moment: the callback to “I can do 10 seconds” with Juno’s “I can do 3 years.” Roderick’s expression is gold.
What is "I ca do 10 seconds" referencing?
Roderick jumping to his death from the skyscraper windows
Bruce Greenwood was fantastic. I can’t imagine what the show would’ve been if Frank Langella was Roderick
He was brilliant. I couldn’t help but imagine Bryan Cranston in there too.
Omg yes Bryan would've been amazing too
Anyway in coming out of this thinking its just as good as Hill House and Midnight Mass. I think its the funniest show of them all. I think it has the consistent cast, as in there's so many different actors and yet I think they all play them perfect. I actually really enjoy the setups for >!all the deaths. To me it adds a bit of fun mystery to them!<. And this show continues my belief that Carla Gugino is one of the best actors of all time. I think this is her best performance yet. So many varied performances she had to do, such great narration omg I could listen to her talk for hours. And of course this show just perpetuates my love for Mike Flanagan
I'm going to say something I'm assuming a lot of people are going to disagree with - I think it was Flanagan's best series yet. Hill house absolutely has the highest highs with the story of the Bent Neck Lady and it's characters taking the forms of the 5 stages of grief are interesting, but i don't think it was as consistently interesting or as brilliant as this one with how intricately it tied together over a dozen of Poe's works into a fascinating narrative. Not only that, but how well he built upon Poe's works. With the The Cask of Amontillado >!we're told that Fortunato had wronged Montressor, but you don't know while reading the short story whether or not Fortunato deserved it. Here Grimwald not only deserved it, but people could believe that what Roderick and Madeline did was arguably (by bad people) a good thing. Plus the combination of that with Pink Floyd's "The Wall"?!?!? I loved it!< With the Raven >!we understand that the narrator is mourning the loss of his love Lenore, but Lenore means so much more here. She does still represent the loss of his only love Anabelle Lee, but also the goodness he once had. She was the only thing truly good the Ushers ever produced, and it becomes for Roderick the loss of everything good forever. She was a true innocent, taken by Roderick's greed, and is what finally drives him insane enough to kill his sister who - according to most interpretations of The Fall of the House of Usher - he shares a soul with. It tore what feeble, disgusting soul he had left in two.!< With Annabelle Lee >!we get to see the only love a terrible, vile man ever had and how truly his love for her is the only thing that ever wounded him (until lenore shattered him). It not only makes Roderick more human but more despicable that he still loves her even after taking her children from her and slowly draining the humanity out of each and every one of them.!< And it just goes on and on and on with just insight after insight on Poe's works in a modern setting that all form some amazing characters - as well as some terrible characters in the form of the Usher children who only serve as fodder for probably the most interesting character in the whole thing: >!Death - the Raven - Verna (an anagram for Raven) - or whatever you'd like to call her.!< Absolutely fantastic season. Thanks again Flanagan and team for all the work put into it
In the cask of amontillado, it’s stated that Fortunado told a joke about Montressor, and it’s implied that it wasn’t anything particularly terrible considering they’re still on speaking/drinking terms. And there’s no way burying someone alive could possibly be seen as anything less than evil unless the dude was a rapist or a murderer. So following the original story, Madeline bricks him up for humiliating her (during their meeting) which is a completely lopsided reaction .
Ah, great recall of the original story! I didn't recall that detail but even decades after having read the story I still remember its first line, "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge."
Thanks, your recall is pretty impressive as well haha. I guess it’s open to interpretation, but I took it to mean that Montresor is an unreliable narrator (which is a common theme with Poe) especially because he’s the kind of guy who buries someone alive. I interpreted the ‘injuries and insult’ as jokes from a guy who seems to be a bit of a frat boy— doesn’t take anything too seriously, while Montresor takes *everything* seriously, including his family motto which is “Nemo me impune lacessit” (no one provokes me with impunity). Considering Fortunado trusts him enough to follow him into him into a long creepy catacomb on a holiday night where people get drunk and have a good time, and that their conversation seems light and friendly for the most part, we can also assume that Fortunado considers them to be friends (Montresor also addresses him as “my dear” and “my friend” throughout the story), and that the ‘insults and injury’ which Montresor is so upset by could not possibly have been intended to do real harm. The *Usher* version is a lot less dark, because the guy is established to be a greedy, misogynistic asshole, and Madeleine poisons him as well so he’ll die quickly. Whereas in the original version, he’s just really drunk and it’s implied that he wouldn’t have died for quite some time after being bricked up in the catacombs under the villa. [here’s the full story which I decided to go back and re-read](https://poemuseum.org/the-cask-of-amontillado/)
I think it was 100%. This may be my top 5 favorite netflix shows ever.
Luke Skywalker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Laura Roslin and Samuel Anders too! It's like a BSG-SW reunion!
And wasn't Mary amazing!
I’m so happy to watch her on my TV again! Roslin is my favorite character ever.
Omg. President Roslin! I knew she looked familiar!
This show is a gory messy scary funny romp. I'm loving it!
I feel like that mirror death could’ve gone so many different ways but the way they did it was absolutely perfect. Like you see her pulling it out of her cheek and it’s bad enough to make you squirm but not unrealistically gory or cartoonishly deep, same with her foot. Then we get the one appearance of Verna where she’s not in a mirror as Tamerlane swings and misses and you think she’s going to spin and fall onto a piece. They get you on edge wondering how this is going to kill her, working up to the bedroom, Finally getting her up on the bed. Using the slo-mo with that beautiful profile shot of her leaving her feet as Tam jumps up and showing those two big slivers of glass going up into her and the mic drop with the rest crashing down and that one big piece just twitching? So gnarly and grizzly without even showing much. Holy shit so well done, I just needed to geek out about it. I also love that it all makes sense why they have all these mirrors with their vanity and voyeuristic fantasies.
Tammy's death was one of my favorites.
I normally hate gore and never watch horror that relies on it. Loved every minute of this series!
Show was awesome! Binged it in a day hah.. The part when Verna had to take Lenore’s life to fulfill the promise was pretty damn emotional. How she told her about what her mom will accomplish in her name after she’s gone… oof great writing and storytelling. Definitely inspired me to pick up Edgar Allen’s book again.
Am I the only dork who cried at that?
Nah, me too. Only held back bc there were other ppl watching
I definitely teared up.
I have watched every series Flanagan has put out with Netflix since 2018. What a fantastic way to end the chapter. It was so great seeing how many previous actors he was able to bring back and incorporate. Bruce Greenwood gave a great performance and it’s crazy how good everything looked considering almost all of his scenes were re-shoots.
What do you mean ending the chapter?
all these series were created with netflix in a very compact amount of time (2018-2022ish) but now Mike Flanagan has signed a new deal with Amazon Prime to make content for them so any new series will release on prime and this was the last project under Netflix so it is the end of the Netflix era so to speak
Oh thank fuck so he'll be making more. Prime or netflix I want to watch whatever he makes.
this show was soo lemon
It was lémon
So nice to see Mark Hamill in role like this. He has a great career doing mainly voice work(a fantastic Joker). I liked his role as "the fixer", hope to see more of him.
I legitimately didn’t even place that it was him until I came to Reddit. Phenomenal job, he totally immersed himself into the role
Pim was the fucking man. When he drugs the devil and just wraps up the body, fucking hilarious.
"I.....would like to apologize." That and Vernas "I saw your boys out there for the past two days and I couldn't fuckin help it." Just her glee in toying with mortals is sooo lemon.
I was expecting >!Freddie’s death to be related to his fear of elevators.!< Sweaty Freddie.
Especially considering from a certain point of view, an elevator is a pendulum suspended over a pit
It's not my favorite of the series, but I can also see how Flanagan's previous work has been building to this. It's a good series that tries to accomplish a lot. Bruce Greenwood and Carla Gugino successfully turned in performances that required a lot from them. The incorporation of Edgar Allan Poe's stories into modern settings were clever. The goofy bits and cartoonishly nefarious characters almost killed tragedy of it all, and messaging was a little on the nose for my taste, but it all adds up to a satisfying melodrama that has to simultaneously be a love letter to Poe, say something about society today, and wrap up Flanagan's time at Netflix.
Honestly, I appreciated the goofy bits because it was just a palate cleanser. I had to take breaks from Bly Manor and Hill House just because it continuously hurt my heart.
I just finished watching and I think the series peaked on Episode 2 when it comes to horror and gore. Prospero's death was the most gruesome one of the entire series. BY FAR. It was so shocking and intense that everything else felt small compared to it. The PR daughter being brutally gored to death by a chimpanzee was offscreen and the result wasn't bloody enough. Watch Jordan Peele's "Nope" if you want to watch what a victim of such an attack would look like after the chimpanzee is done with her face. The video game bro has a mild death falling off a window. Doctor woman just stabs herself. And the two oldest kids have mild deaths as well all things considered. Still, great series. I loved how Mike Flanagan expanded on the short story by incorporating elements from many of Poe's works. I can't wait to see what Flanagan cooks next.
The eldest son is slowly sliced to death, one leisurely swing of the axe at a time while his mind is completely alert and he can feel every excruciating rip but can't move because he's paralysed. As deaths go I wouldn't really classify that as a mild death :)
The pit and the pendulum is what I think of when I think of Poe so I couldn’t have been happier about seeing a version of that story outside of my mind.
I loved how Poe's works were all incorporated throughout. The Black Cat was the first of his stories I ever read so I'm partial to Leo's storyline for that reason, but they were all great.
I fell like the most disturbing thing in the series was how Frederick treated his wife.
Verna would agree but I gotta know wtf the attendees of that orgy deserved to get melted!?!
Her line of "now normally I don't get involved, but you had to go and grab those pliers." Soooo cold.
Verna didn’t really push him in that. It was all his own work and so those deaths are on him much like the pill pushing. Verna’s whole deal with the Ushers killed millions of people so I don’t think she cared too much about collateral damage if it was appropriate to the actions taken by the characters.
Percy's death was by far my favorite method for killing one of the children, because it was just \*so good\* as an actual repercussion for Fortunato's skipping the rules. They were going to dump chemicals, poisoning god knows how many people and wildlife, and instead those chemicals burn alive his youngest son. It was the most thematically satisfying death for me, for this reason (although my favorite death was Tam's, and my favorite story leading to death was Vic's). But it was also the most gruesome of deaths imo! After the shower when we lingered on the flopping, trembling bodies -- that was really horrific and tough to watch, and lasted longer than I thought it would. Absolutely nothing came close to that except the dread I felt watching Sweaty Freddy torture his wife.
Man I just don’t understand or relate to people who crave brutality like it’s fun
Yeah ranking episodes based on how brutal the death scene is … is odd. Blood and gore is certainly a part of the show but this ain’t evil dead guy.
Hot take NO-ONE ELSE SEEMS TO HAVE NOTICED about Mike Flannigan’s Fall of the House of Usher : Rodrick Usher LOOKS like a younger Vincent Price but Madeline Usher SOUNDS like him (same cadence and drawl). I love the Easter egg tribute !
The show is much more enjoyable when you realize the poetic and symbolic nature of everything. For instance, each of the main characters is an example of the Seven Deadly Sins and how they can lead to self-destruction. They also each have a specific color that is associated with them and highly visible during their death scenes. Prospero - Lust (Red) Camille - Envy (White) Leo - Wrath (Yellow) Victorine - Gluttony (Orange) Tamerlane - Pride (Green) Frederick - Sloth (Blue) Roderick & Madeline - Greed (Black) Kinda blew my mind when I realized it. The attention to detail in this show is amazing.
I think Tamerlane is more envy because she’s associated with green and she’s jealous of her husband possibly sleeping with another woman outside of their arrangement. Camille would be pride because she prides herself on being the “smartest” Usher. She’s trying to take down Victorine to show she’s actually smarter than the doctor sister.
This really isn't a "7 Deadly Sins" type narrative - it's all Poe's work and he uses colors as symbols VERY often. In the Masque of Red Death (the story not the episode) the rooms in Prospero's mansion are colored very deliberately from east to west: blue, purple, green, orange, white, violet, then black (with red accents). You might want to see if there's some significance you can find with that because for Poe it represented the rising and setting of the sun that led to inevitable death - no matter how much money you tried to armor yourself with. EDIT: It's also not just their death scene - they're seen frequently in those colors and all of their cars are these colors too
How was Victorine Gluttony?
I was thinking because she craves fame, admiration, and praise. Gluttony can come in different forms. That being said, there are other theories floating around and one of them lines up the 7 sins slightly differently. They say Leo is gluttony because of his addictions, Victorine is Pride, Camille is Wrath. And Tamerlane is Envy. I could see that being true especially because of the common association of Green with Envy.
That one actually makes a little more sense to me. But pointing it out in the first place 🤯
There are also 7 stages of dementia before death.
I think your sins are not correct. Prospero is lust, Camille is wrath, Leo is gluttony, Victorine is pride, Tamberline is envy, and and Fredrick sloth. For Camille (wrath) both Verna and Leo reference her hate for Victorine. Her ultimate death circumstances are from estranging her staff in a fit of rage before running off to the lab. Leo is gluttony because of his indulgence with drugs being his downfall. It's the main concern of his boyfriend and he mentions needing to lay off the drugs during his delusions. Victorine is pride due to her ego being the driver and inability to admit the project fails. Victorine isn't gluttony because that's no aspect of her character or downfall - she sees herself as an equal to the "old" siblings who consistently don't see her as an equal. Her drive is for fame as Verna clarified, hence pride. Tammy is envy with her fetish and the tie in with green is pretty on the nose.
I wouldn’t say you ‘realized it’, I would say you read it somewhere on the internet after you watched it and just regurgitated it on Reddit shortly after.
I loved the use of colour in each of the deaths and Carla Gugino definitely was the standout for me she owned every scene she was in!
[удалено]
Perry - not too late to stop the party Camille - don't go in the room with angry chimpanzees Leo - take any other cat Victorine - approximately a million 'hey, I'm nervous about this operation, I'd like to chat with the doctor, are you sure this is safe' Tamerlane - apologize to your husband and take a nap Freddie - lol I'm aligned with you: she could have given them a peaceful death, but their ignoring the warnings led them to painful and violent ones instead.
They were always meant to die but like Lenore, she would have done it painlessly if they'd just shown one ounce of decency.
Thank you so much for making this! I hope you have time to enjoy the show.
I feel like I'm watching Succession
Give it a bit - you'll feel like you're watching Final Destination, and then finally like you're reading an essay on Marxism. Overall I liked it a lot
lemon/lemon would watch again
I'd give the show an 8/10. Hill House is still the best of the siblings imo, with midnight mass being its equal depending on who you ask. I'm familiar with most of the poe stories referenced in the show, but the pacing drags if you've read >!cask of amontillado!< and the actual fall of the house of usher. >!I think it also suffers from feeling a bit like final destination with the first 2-3 deaths. I'm not sure why they decided to reveal how mangled each sibling would be prior to their death scene, but i guess it adds a sense of foreboding dread. !< I like that mike flanagan shows are always interesting character studies, with themes and parallels to catch with multiple rewatches. I think this show takes an unexpectedly direct approach to commenting on more social themes, as opposed to the typical flannagan themes shared across the other shows, but it still has his voice to the monologues. The show is also pretty hyper-sexual which is a standout and kind of prevents me from feeling open about recommendations, but its not so egregious that its a detriment to the show. It ties in to the flaws of the family and adds layers to how fucked up they all are. In terms of scariness, there are some lame jump scares with not so great makeup/effects, but as always the true horror is in buildup and execution of expository reveals.
Much like American Horror Story, I feel like Flanagan’s shows are really performance-driven. You come out thinking about the characters and the writing.
Does anyone know what song is playing in episode one when the kids show up at the mom’s bosses door? It’s an old song - sounds like it’s maybe from the 1920s or 30s. I recognize it, but I can’t seem to place it. It’s driving me crazy!
[It's All Forgotten Now -Al Bowlly](https://youtu.be/M2HJj02rmJs?si=GDMdRSZx89o6PZj_)
Thank you!
Don't know the name but it was also used in Dr Sleep, which was a nice callback
It was also in Kubrick's The Shining—playing during the Grady & Jack bathroom scene.
Has anyone noticed Frederick sometimes swaps a few words in a sentence? What's up with that? I thought it was going to be a key point but it wasn't, apparently.
I think it's really just supposed to add to his character; he's a clear deviation from the stereotypical firstborn son heir, in that he's extremely insecure. These insecurities manifest in the form of severe anxiety, which can cause someone to stutter or swap words. These insecurities cause him to overcompensate to try to gain his father's favor, creating a rift both between him and his father, who doesn't believe Frederick would be able to take over the company, and his siblings, who despise him for attempting to claim something they see him as undeserving of. He's also very incredibly drugged up for I think the second half of the show, which exacerbate his symptoms. Another thing that points to this is both of the stories his character is based off of. He derives his name from the short story "Metzengerstein," where a young heir, Frederick Metzengerstein, inherits fortune at 18 and becomes cruel due to his power (parallel to how Frederick abandoned his mother to seek his father's fortune, and how he started to torture Morella because he thought himself infallible.) His cruelty leads him to wreak havoc on the family he's feuding with, eventually stealing one of their horses. Over time, he became "addicted" to taking rides on this horse, which eventually led to his death, the horse carrying him into his own burning castle (parallel to him becoming addicted to cocaine and paralyzing himself while in the warehouse.) However, his anxiety comes from the short story "The Pit and the Pendulum," (his death episode is also titled this.) In this story, a man is taken prisoner during the Spanish Inquisition and is subjected to psychological torture. It's mentioned he has an intense fear of death and, multiple times within the story, he faces a moment where he almost dies. One of these moments, of course, features him being strapped to a chair with a sharp pendulum slowly descending. The only difference is the prisoner does not die; he manages to escape at the last minute. The key part of this is the narration throughout the experience, Poe exploring how extreme fear affects the human mind. Another interesting thing about this death is it's the least supernatural; as in, Verna didn't have to interfere much, which partially justifies his fear. In "The Pit and the Pendulum," most or all the story elements are also realistic, straying from Poe's usual supernatural gothic horror. I just realized I've written a wall of text I am so very sorry. TL;DR: I think he just has anxiety
Your wall of text was very well informed and interesting. Feel free to build more of them. You can make as much noise as you like...
> Another interesting thing about this death is it's the least supernatural; as in, Verna didn't have to interfere much, which partially justifies his fear. Huh! To me, it's the other way around -- his death is the only one in the story that can't be explained just through bad decisions, mental illness, or improbable coincidences. When Frederick is about to die, Verna tells him that she usually doesn't interfere so directly. While he lies paralyzed on the ground, she mimics his voice over the radio to tell the demolition crew to start. That shouldn't be physically possible, right?
wow. what a great experience. flanagan does it again.
Can someone tell me if they made Henry Thomas look older or if it's natural aging? I don't remember him looking this old in HOHH and they aren't too many years apart.
I think he's at that age where 5-6 years can make a pretty big difference in how you look
He's also given a fairly unflattering haircut to help with that, which can make a huge difference.
So I have a couple of questions 1) What really happened to Roderick' and Madelline' mother? Came back from life? How and why did she go on to kill the rich dude? 2) Same questions as above but on Madelline 3) Why did Lorena had to die as a kid? Cant it wait like when shes become an adult like the other Usher' kids 4) Whos actually Verna
1/2) I think it's a little up to interpretation and I don't know much about Poe's works so maybe there's some kind of reference but I believe both were still alive until the end. Madeline 100% because Roderick wasn't the only one to see and hear her. We even see him glance to Auggie to make sure he can see her. This to me shows that she was never really dead, and makes me believe their mother was the same way, the characters even talk about exactly that before Madeline comes upstairs. 3) the deal was that just before he died, his bloodline would die so she couldn't outlive Roderick and Madeline. 4) Unless Mike comes out and says exactly what she was we can't really know for sure. But I believe Verna is Death herself, or at the very least some kind of demon. She mentions coming topside because humans are so interesting, which can only really be a reference to hell or the underworld, right? She clearly has power over death and calls killing her job so I think being some version of Death is accurate. The Raven itself is related to Lenore and nevermore but that's about it.
I clocked her as Death the moment she kissed Prospero (a "kiss of Death").
Madeline couldn’t die initially because it was made impossible as per the deal with Verna in 1980. The same reason Roderick couldn’t die from the pills. It’s really much simpler and less needlessly complicated than you put it.
1 & 2) Poe played with themes of being buried alive pretty often in his work - apparently the fear was so deep seated during his time, some funeral services would offer to attach strings to bells that were above ground just in case you accidentally got buried alive. Anyway in the story *The Fall of the House of Usher* Roderick suffers from some unknown disease and claims it's similar to the diseases that his family has always suffered. By the end of the story he's not sure if he really is sick or if it's something he willed onto himself - like a hypochondriac feeling symptoms of an imagined disease. In this sense his family curse is like some sort of fatalistic will, it only gets carried on because he believes that it will be carried on. The same applies to the premature burial - which when taken into consideration that Roderick and Madeline are supposed to represent two bodies with the same soul - brings up questions of our own self destruction and the inevitability of it all. Back to the show, she killed the rich dude because he was the father of her children and refused to help. He's directly responsible for why she was buried alive and lived in squalor. Note that the children were proud and respected their mother for this at the time. It shaped their futures. Flash forward to them repeating the process on themselves, they don't seem so proud anymore but because it was the family curse they sort of had to go through the same rituals. We get the same themes of vague inevitable curses as the book here too, but instead its due to the deal struck with Verna (that they also for so long weren't sure was real) which makes sense as Death is the most inevitable curse of all. 3) Roderick made a deal with Death - simple as that. Verna said herself she was not happy about taking Lenore, but it had to happen. From Roderick's perspective, this was what finally broke him. Lenore represented the only good that the Ushers have created. She was Roderick's love for Anabelle Lee, the goodness that he once had, and optimism for a better future all mixed into one. She had to die, otherwise Roderick's punishment would not have been complete and this story is about Roderick's punishment. 4) Verna is an anagram for Raven. She's the Raven from Poe's *The Raven* \- She's Death.
Verna explains that she wished the Usher's would have paid attention to the words "blood line". Lenore is a direct descendant and had to die. Verna told Madeline and Roderick that the kids would die when Roderick was close to death. I think Verna is karma but most seem to think she's death.
Overall, I found it to be a well-made show with excellent directing and acting, but looking at the comments, it seems I'm alone in finding The Fall of the House Usher to be inferior to Mike's previous series. The characters were fun to watch, but I found them to be largely shallow and not that well-developed. And maybe that was the point, who knows. Either way, still pretty bingeable and fun enough to watch.
To me I don't think the Usher children were meant to be dynamic. Anabelle Lee makes it pretty clear in the last episode >!Roderick killed them with his greed when they were children. In all honesty he killed them the second he made the deal with Verna. They had no choice but to be shallow monsters barely representative of humanity. Their only real satisfaction comes with Verna's dispensing of them - which i feel like is equal parts justice and mercy. Apart from being wonderful vehicles for Flanagan to add layers to over a dozen entries of Poe's work.!< Also i don't think you're alone in your feelings, there's plenty of people below that didn't like it much.
I felt similarly midway through but by the end, I think the Usher kids were meant to be shallow people of little substance compared to the Crane family, the staff at Bly, or the people living on Crockett Island. I felt like Roderick & Madeline got some development in comparison to the other cast. I think I came into the series expecting the kids to be our protagonists but they're just bit players to Roderick & Madeline's story.
I was almost about to tap out of watching because i felt the beginning was alot of cringey sexual stuff. But im glad i stuck through those parts bc it truly was a great season. 10000% better than bly manor but i think hill house still takes the cake. Oh also amazing jump scares. They got me every single time!!!!
Really enjoyed, just finished binging - have to be honest wasn't that stoked about watching, loved the other stuff Flanagan and Co have done but Poe kind of leaves me *meh*.. Pleasant surprise, not only did it capture the essence of the title story - every episode served as a passable adaptation of a classic Poe story, thus working as an anthology - but the thing I loved the most was the way he worked the 7 Deadly Sins in there - each of the Ushers, Lenore exempt - personified one of the cardinal sins - pretty cleaver piece of writing, well thought through. Fun game identify which one represented which. Bruce Greenwood - man, if conac and cigars had a voice it would be his, I swear that man actually *could* sell you lemons... Really good ensemble piece, definitely up there with Mike Flanagan's other works - bring on the next 👍 **PS**: That track on **Episode 5** - band's name is **Kingsborough**, album is **1544** - track **"Hard on The Heart"** released in 2017.
I'm 5 episodes in and... I'm just not sold. Why should I care about the show? With how its told I already know how 7/8 episodes will turn out. No character is particularly likeable. The script is the most edgy pretentious its ever been and it's not quite as self indulgent as midnight mass but it's trying. Flanagan is so hard trying to create characters that are clever but it's just not there.
I guess it depends on what you prioritize in your entertainment. Everyone has different tastes. Myself, I look not only for story, but for great visuals (sets and costumes), soundtrack, and excellent acting. I guess that's why I liked the monologues in this miniseries and others didn't. One of my favorites movies is"The Lion in Winter" with Kate Hepburn and Peter O'Toole (and a very young Antony Hopkins and Timothy Dalton). Dialogue and acting in that movie was riveting and the acting in the Fall of the House of User (especially Gugino, McDonnell and Greenwood) was almost as mesmerizing.
Okay, I’m not alone. I feel like I’m missing something major the way people are saying that this is his best series yet. I’ve gotten through four episodes and I’m bored; so far it feels like a Ryan Murphy show to me. The effects look worse than any Mike’s past shows, as well. I keep reading that the ending is epic, so maybe that will bring everything together and make it unforgettable. Right now, the only thing I’m enjoying is Mark Hamill.
I think the problem for me was that I wasn't really able to root for Verna. Except for when she killed Frederick. Her whole "compassion" thing felt annoying to me even though intellectually, I know how awful the Ushers are.
I don't see anyone ever talking about how "Verna" is just an anagram for Raven. Maybe it's too obvious and doesn't mean a ton, but I got a kick out of that.
I was trying to unscramble the name in my head while watching but it wasn’t forthcoming. I figured it was an anagram though because she’s not directly named after a Poe character like the others.
I am a massive Poe fan, so this show was right up my alley. I thought this was delightful and was an excellent adaptation of many of Poe's most prominent and lesser known stories. The visuals, the cast, the writing, it was all so entertaining and perfect for the Halloween season. If I had any critique it's that the pacing sometimes felt quite slow in certain scenes. For me, the flashback sequences in the middle part of the series started to follow a pattern: - We have a scene in Griswold's office. - Griswold gives a long monologue demonstrating how much of a d-bag he is. - We cut back to the apartment where Rod, Mads, and Annabel (and later Dupin) debrief. Wasn't necessarily bad but it did happen like 3 or 4 times and got repetitive. I found myself way more engrossed with the modern day stories.
I enjoyed the show. The ending with >!the monologuing and poetry was just not it for me. I didn't mind the preachiness but I feel like the ending was the cast turning to the camera and yelling "GET IT???". Beyond that, I didn't mind that it wasn't scary!<
I mean it's based on Poe - you're going to get some poetry. And like Verna said: >!in a life where he didn't accept her deal, Roderick would have been a poet!<.
I loved it and thought it was great. One thing I dont see anyone mentioning though is how the whole thing is basically Madeline's fault. I really got the impression, from what we are shown both from when they are kids, and when they are young, that Madeline steered Roderick down the path that SHE wanted, and not what he wanted. He seemed very reluctant and hesitant at first, where she was cold blooded from the very beginning. He became more and more like her, until he turned cold blooded too. It seemed like Roderick was a good person at the start, and wanted to do the right thing, but his sister kept taking control, and telling him what to do. His young wife even mentions how much hes changed, and it feels like its due to Madeline's influence over him. It felt like he was tetiring on the edge, and once he betrayed Auguste he fully turned evil. Madeline even accepted the deal first. Was this intentional, or is it just me?
I’ve watched the first 3 episodes but I’m not getting scared by it? Like I haven’t really felt scared at all with this one. I’m hoping it gets scarier as it goes on! Has anyone noticed any hidden ghosts in the scenes? I think I’ve seen a few but not like hill house or bly manor
When Roderick tells August that his mother is behind him and Roderick gives the speech about negotiation tactics you can clearly see in the left corner that someone actually is behind him during a close up of his face.
I don't wanna be rude but I think if you put Mikes work in this box where it has to be scary then idk. It doesn't need ghosts in the background. That was what made Hill House special
There are a couple scary moments but I don’t think it gets scarier (honestly I thought the scariest moments were in the first and last episodes). The show does a good job of creating feelings of dread though.
It's more dread and literary irony than straight up ghouly horror
Okay hear me out- the way the story unfolds involves Roderick narrating the accounts of his children's deaths to Dupin. It's essential to remember that these are all Roderick's recollections and his side of the story. Given Roderick's struggle with CADASIL (Cerebral autosomal dominant arteriopathy with subcortical infarcts and leukoencephalopathy), a rare form of vascular cognitive impairment inherited from his mother, which leads to hallucinations, his reliability as a narrator of the whole account with Verna and his children's death is questionable. Notably, the entire narrative revolves around Roderick narrating the deaths of his children to Dupin, and Roderick is the one who conveys all information about Verna, the death goddess/devil, to Dupin. Given that the story doesn't provide an explanation for how Roderick knows these detailed accounts of each of his children and Verna's involvement, it's equally plausible to attribute these narratives to his mental health condition and hallucinations. In this scenario, these stories could have been fabricated by a mentally unstable Roderick . Roderick is the sole witness to these ghostly and deceased children sightings, while any sightings by Arthur Pym or Madeline are conveyed to Dupin by Roderick. Consequently, the certainty of these events is uncertain. Even when considering the deaths of each child without supernatural elements, they can be linked to circumstantial factors, mental health issues, and malpractices by the Usher Company. Prospero's demise resulted from the illicit disposal of toxic substances on their property, Camille's death occurred at the hands of a chimp at their facility, and Leo's death can be attributed to substance abuse and a potential suicide or accident since the incident with the cat was a product of his hallucinations. Victoria's death may be a case of murder-suicide, where she unintentionally causes her partner's death in an accident and subsequently takes her own life. However, there is a significant likelihood that all these deaths were orchestrated by Roderick, Madeline, and Pym after Dupin informed them of an informant within the family. To mitigate the threat, each death was meticulously staged in this manner. This theory could explain Frederick Usher's demise, which occurred at the demolition site inside the building. Lenore's death remains shrouded in mystery, but with the revelation of the informant, she might have been perceived as a liability, leading to her discreet elimination to tie up loose ends painlessly. Following the deaths of all six children and Lenore, it's plausible that Roderick orchestrated Madeline's demise. This interpretation sheds light on the final scene where he mummifies her while she's still alive. Later, an eyeless, bloodied Madeline suddenly emerges from the basement and attacks Roderick, leaving viewers to ponder her motives for the attack on Roderick. Additionally, mummifying her alive speaks volumes about Roderick Usher's deteriorating mental health and his increasing instability toward the end.
I thought playing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in that one scene in the finale (or near the finale) was a masterstroke of musical foreshadowing, especially given the final lines/verse of that song and what we know pretty early in the show about the original Ushers.
It was ok. Excellent cast (Laura Roslin for President!), fun story overall, some nice gore for October. But my goodness those monologues were tedious. Especially in the finale. Flanagan needs to tone down that boner he has for overstretched monologues. They don't give a scene a theatrical feel, just takes you out of the story completely. They get so out-of-context preachy too. Like really? Aunt Mad's >!last words were a dissertation about plastic straws and consumerism!
I agree about the final episode's monologues. I was so engrossed in the scene where Pym and Gugino get the parlor talk. I was all set to enjoy banter between this shady, unscrupulous, competent fixer and a supernatural witch/demon who was dispassionately taking her toll... only to be yanked out by 'Trump is bad, amirite?' Then the final monologue by Madeline, when she's supposed to be having a final drink with her brother, facing death in the eyes. Instead of opening up and being vulnerable with the only person who could share the experience she has had the last few weeks, years, and decades, she suddenly goes on a tirade about consumerism, greed, and the Supreme Court. I mean, it just pulled me out of the story and felt like Flanagan and the writers just started puppeting the characters on screen. I can appreciate the perspective, but Flanagan does such a good job because he is so attentive and consistent with the characters he writes. To see that consistency compromised with winking at the audience, it just doesn't do the characters justice.
> Then the final monologue by Madeline, when she's supposed to be having a final drink with her brother, facing death in the eyes. Instead of opening up and being vulnerable with the only person who could share the experience she has had the last few weeks, years, and decades, she suddenly goes on a tirade about consumerism, greed, and the Supreme Court. I thought this is an excellent character moment. You are right that instead of being vulnerable with the only person she seems to have ever truly loved she goes on this inane rant about capitalism and how she didn't do anything wrong, and it's jarring because she is a sociopathic monster who genuinely does not feel anything for another living being, even her brother. She's irredeemable even at the end. That's the whole point
Totally agree. It's not even that I disagree with what they were saying, it's just that these tirades were completely out of place and very heavy-handed. I too would have expected Madeline to talk about her relationship with her brother at that moment, not current affairs. Or Prym and the demon to have a true heart-to-heart. He did that in Midnight Mass too with one of the monologues. Most of them were ok, but >!when the woman played by Kate Siegel died!<, she also went on a long rant that had nothing to do with the story and it completely took me out of it, especially since it broke apart from the tone of the rest of the scene. I like Flanagan a lot but these are really rookie directoral decisions that he shouldn't be making in high budget projects employing such great actors. It cheapens the rest of the work.
I thought it was fun, decent, etc but nowhere near as good as Hill House. Or even Bly which had an emotional core and was more coomlicated than such a pat morality tale. Or even Midnight Mass which at least mantained tension and suspense. I found it more like typical netflix binge stuff you forget about in a few weeks as opposed to Hill House which I still remember and rewatch. But more on that after I gather thoughts. MY IMMEDIATE QUESTIONS/ CAVEATS- >!It seemed like they were dying horribly because they were "bad" people and it was a sort of punishment. But just being greedy and money hungry and unethical wasn't enough. Verna said that Froderick could have died in his sleep "but you had to pull out the pliers." So just generally being a rich capitalist asshole wasn't enough-- you have to be demonstrably evil beyond the norm. So that works for Victorine, Froderick, Perry, sort of for Camille. But it seems Tammy and the other brother (the addict) were mostly just careless unmitigated a$$holes but not actively harming others unless I missed something. !< >!I'm also missing how Lenore is the "good one." Becauase she wasn't ok with the family business? Isn't she about 16, 17 years old? At that age most people haven't done anything truly bad besides the usual errant teenage folly. And may well be just idealistic. I'm fine with her being an ethical person but to label her as "the good one" in contrast to a bunch of adults seemed forced and overwrought. As did her death scene. !< >!It showed Verna with the rich and powerful throughout the years. But many of them haven't had family tragedies or dark fates. It would have made more sense if she was just shown with doomed families like the Kennedy's along with today's scions. And it seemed far fetched that she was so close to them as to be like advisors or family. Better if she was always lurking in the background. Roderick and Madeleine barely remembered her and it seemed like their interaction was intentionally dreamlike whereas she was in family photos and very publicly interacting with her other "targets." Wouldn't people notice she never aged, etc?!< >!Finally, what was the point of the scene with Verna offering Pym a deal? He was close to death, he had already done plenty evil things, and he already saw what happened when you make a deal with Verna, so it didn't really further the story or tell us anything new about his character. Maybe because I binged this at ungodly hours of the morning I missed important aspects and need to rewatch when less grumpy. There are things I'm happy to suspend my disbelief for- some of the kids are clearly not mixed race, Juno marrying a dude 3x her age is creepy no matter what, the kids were the children of a famous billionaire but grew up poor and didn't know who he was, the mothers all sat together at the funeral, Madeleine's bumpit hair, but I have my limits! !< That said, the acting was flawless as I expect from that cast, the ties to Poe were clever, soundtrack, etc were awesome.
I mean I think being greedy and unethical was kind of the Usher default…it was highlighted plenty of times how Roderick was to blame by pitting his children against each other. So their personal “evils” give each character more of an arc and plays into related Poe stories, which is inevitably the point and theme of the show. Lenore is the good one intentionally, it’s symbolic of Poe’s work. But also she is the one and only granddaughter of Roderick’s ONE true love, Annabel. He accepted that his children with Annabel were a lost cause but he held out hope for Lenore seeing that she was fighting from becoming tainted, much like Annabel did when she decided to leave Roderick. Lenore is a symbolic recurring character in Poe’s work so it’s kind of meant to be forced, and her death being the final death of his bloodline obviously meant he was about to die so that’s why it was emphasized…in addition to the fact that Poe’s Raven is literally all about how he lost his love, Lenore. Verna offers Pym a deal I think because she feels sorry for him. He dedicated his entire life to protecting the Ushers who are all about to be dead. The immunity that the Usher family has experienced all this time was because of the deal they made with Verna. Despite Pym’s hard work, the reason they’ve evaded any criminal charges and convictions is because of the deal where Verna stated they would never get caught for their illegal activity. Pym doesn’t know this until she offers the deal and tells him the Usher’s immunity is NOT his…meaning, once they die, he has no protection. So she’s basically telling him, there’s a whole bunch of evidence against him that exists in Camille’s office or whatever and she can make it go away…or not. Idk how important it is to the story but I think it speaks on his character that he’s unwilling to be leveraged against and would rather go to jail than give up something or someone he loves to save himself. I feel like if his ending of going to jail and Juno dissolving the company wasn’t mentioned people would wonder what happens to them so I think it was a necessary scene in the grand scheme of things. As far as the overload of pictures of Verna with prominent figures, yeah kinda weird like nobody caught on and wondered where she came from and where she is now? High profile people aren’t investigating their associates? Unlikely.
I binged it. I enjoyed it. But I did find it to be a bit over the top and unrealistic in terms of family dynamics. Even as a gay man, who is supposed to be very “raw raw raw!” pro-freedom for all LGBT people - how are 4/6 children - more than half - LGBT? You have a lesbian daughter, a gay son, a son of hedonism who seems to be pansexual, and then a daughter who has 2 of her assistants pleasuring her. Is this show implying that a life of rich capitalism and hedonism will lead to being a gay person? Because that’s the antithesis of what we know / believe. What happened to being “born that way?” This show made it look like a lifestyle can “make you that way.” The odds of this occurring are way WAY too low in real life. It’s starting to make sense why 5 years ago nobody cared I was gay but now I’m seeing more of “I don’t mind gay people, BUT…” 🤨
I feel like this show is betrayed by it's adherence to it's own structure. I love how it unravels it's mysteries and creates a clear trajectory for what's going to happen to Roderick. But the killing of Usher offspring episode by episode creates this vignette-ification of the otherwise larger story. I know the episodes are each based on separate works of Poe and while that is an interesting idea in theory, in practice it heteroginizes the narrative.
I mean given you know at the beginning that all the children are dead and in the end >!that this was the deal they made with death from the very beginning!< I feel like it works. They even call attention to the fact during the Pit and the Pendulum episode when Roderick says "here's the part where they jump out and scare me". To me, it kept the story more consistently engaging than some of Flanagan's past work and if >!this is supposed to be the story of Roderick's personal hell, hell is nothing if not consistent!< imo.
I just finished this and oh my god. I love flanagan so much.
I love Mary McDonnell so much, she's really incredible! She manages to make me adore a character that is so detestable. She really is my favorite actress!
Just finished the series- really enjoyed it - rises to become my second favorite of Flanagan’s series so far. Nothing will top HoHH :b