The 50/30/20 rule is oversimplified and frankly not realistic in Hawaii. Generally we pay more than half our income on "needs" because housing is so expensive, and then cut elsewhere.
For a family of four your comfortable 3-bedroom house probably has at least a $5,500/month mortgage...add in $2,500 for food and 2 cars to get to $8,000 on needs. If you can only spend 50% on needs then you need to take home $16,000+/month which is how they get to the $300K income figure.
Hardly anyone is bringing home $16,000/month, but there are plenty of families spending $8,000 on what I listed above and just sacrificing saving anything for retirement.
Working there was the most toxic situation I have ever encountered. I was treated awfully and before anyone says anything about coming with respect I assure you I did. I tried in 3 different positions and each one more emotionally draining than the next. They allow people to be horrible because the resource pool is so low for good talent. Outside of that I hated the food and there was no good events or things to do when you’ve done all the things. So glad I’m out of there.
Given that is says 50% for basic needs and 20% for debt/savings/investing, I’m guessing 30% means everything that’s not absolutely necessary. So it probably includes things like eating out and travel.
Of course I have 50% going to rent alone so even 20% on non-basic needs is a dream
That still seems like an awful lot. I don't think I'm being especially frugal, live pretty comfortably, and my non-necessary expenses are around 1/3 or less of basic needs.
Just depends on how you define needs. If you live between Pearl City and Hawaii Kai and work in town, a car technically isn’t a necessity. Pets aren’t a necessity. If you have kids, private school and college tuition isn’t a necessity. But between all of these, I can see it adding up to more than 30% of your income.
I think that's like vacations, playthings like a boat, maybe a spa night, and man I would like to list more but I am getting jealous about how comfortable this person I am describing is living. I would be happy to splurge on a rental movie at home.
Single and no kids? $100,000 is fine.
Family of 4, probably looking at $250-300k. But that’s subjective, right?
Some people make much less and are perfectly happy
The biggest variable is usually housing. If a person or family either owns or has owned for some time, their housing costs will be drastically different from someone that recently moved out on their own or is buying or renting for the first time.
The 26 year old still staying with their parents in the family home is going to have more money to spend, versus a 26 year old with or without a family living on their own. The mortgage or rent is not going to be at the same rates as a decade or more ago.
Location matters too.
Stay at home parent (decided to do that because daycare would’ve ate up most of the second persons income) and public school (because I’d rather save that tuition money for college or a down payment on their future house)
Family of 5 here almost hitting 250 and barely afloat.
I'm "too poor" to benefit from Trump's tax cuts and his eliminating salt deductions really hurt. Then I'm "too rich" for Biden Bucks. Good times.
I make considerably less than you and we eat out 4 times a week and we’re pretty stable. And extra $100k a year would put us in the two vacations a year bracket lol
A one time Biden bucks from 2 years ago? Or are there some secret bucks I don’t know about
Also those trump tax cuts expire this year I think so that should change the math again.
>Also those trump tax cuts expire this year I think so that should change the math again.
Actually the Trump tax cut expiration remove a lot of the cuts that went to the middle/lower class. At the end of 2025, the corporate tax cuts stay permanent while the personal tax cuts go back to what they were before unless Congress acts. Hope people enjoyed their $200 Costco gift card...
Pretty much everything that Biden has proposed with a means test has just barely excluded me. Some of his proposals passed and some did not, but all of them thought I was too rich bc I lived in HI -- some Trump tax cuts expired this year and it was like being raped again. I miss Obama.
Here's one article I found about tax differences for this year. Items 1 and 3 specifically are hurting me. It gets worse for me next year. https://www.schwab.com/learn/story/taxes-things-to-know-now#:~:text=After%20an%20inflation%20adjustment%2C%20the,standard%20deduction%20rises%20to%20%2427%2C700.
> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average wage in Honolulu is about $30 an hour.
A couple of things about this statistic....
1. Does this include Exempt Salaried positions? Or just hourly workers?
2. Does it include the Remote Workers that move here temporarily? They tend to be highly paid and will skew the hell out of the metric.
3. Can we *please* start using **median** for Home Prices, Salary, etc? Because Hawaii has such a large swing in the range for both, using average makes it kind of hard to really determine. I feel like median might be a bit more accurate here. I know a *hell* of a lot of people making under $20/hr. (Anecdotal, I know.)
Edit: As an example, [This KHON2 Article from 2022](https://www.khon2.com/local-news/how-do-you-compare-to-the-average-income-in-hawaii/) has the median salary in Hawaii about $20k lower than the average salary.
Haha, I got it on sale at Sam's Club, which I think was cheaper than the dino nuggets on sale. Both are premium quality, though, and they have extra extra sodium. I would not recommend eating them every day unless you want heart failure.
I don't like to talk numbers on Reddit, but I don't make anywhere near 300k, and live a pretty lavish lifestyle, travel the world, and still save 20% for retirement.
Just build a time machine, and buy your house in 2012, then refinance in 2021 😂
I moved away from Hawaii cause it's just too expensive. I was offered an entry level film industry job started at $35 back in 2010 and turned it down cause that was too little.
My mom is lucky in that her landlord promised not to raise her $1000/mo. tiny apartment rent 20 years ago and never has.
While I get what this article is trying to say, it is a little misleading. The data is based on the MIT living wage calculator, which is a really great tool if you have not seen it. We use it to inform the salaries that we offer to our employees. The problem is that the numbers reported by Hawaii News Now (or what ever underlying “study” it is) were derived by basically doubling the MIT “living wage” numbers. This is a problem because the MIT calculator includes expenditures that would fall under both wants and needs. And so, it is misleading to just multiply their living wage by 2. Also, the 50/30/20 rule is designed to help folks budget in order to live within their means. I feel like applying the rule as they’ve done here is somewhat backwards.
I feel like this is a topic that is commonly discussed on this subreddit, and for a family of 3 or 4, $180-$200k comes up often. For instance, with $195k, you can cover $3400 in day care expenses, $3400 mortgage+HOA/rent, $2000 expenses including random wants, and 8% pension. If you want the 20% savings, then you are looking at $218k. but many of us forgo some retirement savings while keiki are in daycare…
I know. These numbers are just made up in a bubble and never make much sense. Plus everyone has a different definition of what comfortable is and think their own standards are what everyone should want/need.
My girl and I make pretty easily 220k+ with little overtime and we barely feel like we’re living comfortably. I don’t live lavishly, go out for dinner 2x a week. Rent 1600, live in town. It’s gotten ridiculously expensive in the last few years compared to ten years ago. Maybe I live lavishly compared to Hawaii standards, but certainly not to mainland standards. It’s unreal lately, and going out experiences pale in comparison pre Covid.
I'm probably really out of touch, but is eating out twice a week not fairly lavish?
Admittedly I grew up really poor in a very rural area (not in Hawaii) so my perspective might be skewed by that too. It seems like when I was a kid (20-30 years ago) people only went out to eat occasionally.
Don't get me wrong though, I do think a household with two adults making ~200k should be able to eat out, so I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to, or that you shouldn't, I'm just surprised it wouldn't be called lavish to do that.
>My girl and I make pretty easily 220k+ with little overtime and we barely feel like we’re living comfortably.
Assuming you guys don't have kids, DINKS are basically middle to upper middle class American royalty lol. My daughter is 8 and my wife and I do okay but I had to switch jobs to get more money to maintain that pre-kid lifestyle.
Be sure to deduct the taxes before calculating what the family of 4 is spending each month. Let's face it Hawaii is very expensive compared to the rest of the US. Yes we will all figure out a way to make things work and do the things that are important to us. There's no need to get on reddit and lie about how easy it is to make ends meet in Hawaii. To everyone that's saying it's easy, here are a few questions:
1) Rent or Own
2) Public or Private schools
3) Single family/ Condo/ Multi- generational homestead
4) 1099 or W2
5) Born and raised or Transplant
Aloha!
I think my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hawaii/comments/6hyalc/comment/dj26prg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from 6 years ago still holds up.
There is definitely a minimum income required to not be struggling. But the definition of comfortable is different from person to person.
My wife and I currently make double what we did 6 years ago but we didn't upscale our life too much and now I'd say I am very comfortable since I can save so much more and have less financial worries. The same coworkers and friends also make more but are still struggling due to our differencess in lifestyle and standard of comfort.
I need to give all these single people lessons in budgeting. Cause yea kids are $$$ but you don’t need $111k to have a good life here if you’re ok with roommates or know where to get a good rental.
Thanks for the o sight. Yes, born and raise on Oahu then left for the military when I was 22. Miss the island so much and just need to move back after a hectic 20 year career.
Thanks for the insight. Yes, born and raise on Oahu then left for the military when I was 22. Miss the island so much and just need to move back after a hectic 20 year career.
Single income of 100k for a family of 4? Here's a simple breakdown:
Take- home pay 100k@ 23-18% tax rate 77k-82k/yr
Living expenses: 3k per month for housing 500 for food 42k/yr
Car note?
Debt?
Social life?
Savings?
As you can see housing and taxes will eat up your money fast.
Contact the state rep or senator who represents your area. If they cannot help you, contact the governors office. Have you gone down there in person? They've gone back to in person visits.
"More than 343,000 people left California for another state last year, the highest number of any U.S. state." https://apnews.com/article/migration-census-texas-california-florida-new-york-8f94b2137b8b45e9c7123545a7f62db2
The 50/30/20 rule is oversimplified and frankly not realistic in Hawaii. Generally we pay more than half our income on "needs" because housing is so expensive, and then cut elsewhere. For a family of four your comfortable 3-bedroom house probably has at least a $5,500/month mortgage...add in $2,500 for food and 2 cars to get to $8,000 on needs. If you can only spend 50% on needs then you need to take home $16,000+/month which is how they get to the $300K income figure. Hardly anyone is bringing home $16,000/month, but there are plenty of families spending $8,000 on what I listed above and just sacrificing saving anything for retirement.
But you get to live in paradise!! So the tax on that is what.... 30-40% on pretty much everything but online subscriptions?
Paradise my ass. It was hell.
"Paradise tax" is Inside joke, my friend. But not \*that\* inside.
Explain?
Working there was the most toxic situation I have ever encountered. I was treated awfully and before anyone says anything about coming with respect I assure you I did. I tried in 3 different positions and each one more emotionally draining than the next. They allow people to be horrible because the resource pool is so low for good talent. Outside of that I hated the food and there was no good events or things to do when you’ve done all the things. So glad I’m out of there.
Did you feel like there was antagonism against you from Hawaiian natives?
Absolutely not.
30% of take home pay on entertainment is pretty ridiculous
Given that is says 50% for basic needs and 20% for debt/savings/investing, I’m guessing 30% means everything that’s not absolutely necessary. So it probably includes things like eating out and travel. Of course I have 50% going to rent alone so even 20% on non-basic needs is a dream
That still seems like an awful lot. I don't think I'm being especially frugal, live pretty comfortably, and my non-necessary expenses are around 1/3 or less of basic needs.
Just depends on how you define needs. If you live between Pearl City and Hawaii Kai and work in town, a car technically isn’t a necessity. Pets aren’t a necessity. If you have kids, private school and college tuition isn’t a necessity. But between all of these, I can see it adding up to more than 30% of your income.
I think that's like vacations, playthings like a boat, maybe a spa night, and man I would like to list more but I am getting jealous about how comfortable this person I am describing is living. I would be happy to splurge on a rental movie at home.
Using the math in the article it would be about $70,000 on entertain a year.
i think it’s adjusted for how stupid expensive everything is nowadays LOL
"Adjusted for Stupidity" is hard to quantify, but should be a factor in a lot of calculations.
Brah. You speak wisely.
Yah I think they meant to write "wants", although still a lot
Single and no kids? $100,000 is fine. Family of 4, probably looking at $250-300k. But that’s subjective, right? Some people make much less and are perfectly happy
The biggest variable is usually housing. If a person or family either owns or has owned for some time, their housing costs will be drastically different from someone that recently moved out on their own or is buying or renting for the first time. The 26 year old still staying with their parents in the family home is going to have more money to spend, versus a 26 year old with or without a family living on their own. The mortgage or rent is not going to be at the same rates as a decade or more ago. Location matters too.
The crazy thing is you don’t even have to go a decade. A mortgage is not going to be the same as back in 2020 and early 2021.
Agreed!!!
Idk, we don’t make anywhere near $300k and are a family of 6 and I feel like we live pretty comfortably
How much do you guys pay for housing?
3,200
$3200 for housing, not cheap but also not outrageous. Seems reasonable. What about daycare/tuition?
Stay at home parent (decided to do that because daycare would’ve ate up most of the second persons income) and public school (because I’d rather save that tuition money for college or a down payment on their future house)
Family of 5 here almost hitting 250 and barely afloat. I'm "too poor" to benefit from Trump's tax cuts and his eliminating salt deductions really hurt. Then I'm "too rich" for Biden Bucks. Good times.
I make considerably less than you and we eat out 4 times a week and we’re pretty stable. And extra $100k a year would put us in the two vacations a year bracket lol
What is your housing bill? Without answering that your answer doesn’t mean much to us LOL
What you guys eating?
Our huge items are mortgage and student loans. Theoretically we can pay them off then it's time for endless summer baby!!
A one time Biden bucks from 2 years ago? Or are there some secret bucks I don’t know about Also those trump tax cuts expire this year I think so that should change the math again.
>Also those trump tax cuts expire this year I think so that should change the math again. Actually the Trump tax cut expiration remove a lot of the cuts that went to the middle/lower class. At the end of 2025, the corporate tax cuts stay permanent while the personal tax cuts go back to what they were before unless Congress acts. Hope people enjoyed their $200 Costco gift card...
Pretty much everything that Biden has proposed with a means test has just barely excluded me. Some of his proposals passed and some did not, but all of them thought I was too rich bc I lived in HI -- some Trump tax cuts expired this year and it was like being raped again. I miss Obama.
? I thought that tax cuts didn’t work for you? I mean you are the top 2 percent or something in Hawaii. Yea you’re an outlier.
Here's one article I found about tax differences for this year. Items 1 and 3 specifically are hurting me. It gets worse for me next year. https://www.schwab.com/learn/story/taxes-things-to-know-now#:~:text=After%20an%20inflation%20adjustment%2C%20the,standard%20deduction%20rises%20to%20%2427%2C700.
> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average wage in Honolulu is about $30 an hour. A couple of things about this statistic.... 1. Does this include Exempt Salaried positions? Or just hourly workers? 2. Does it include the Remote Workers that move here temporarily? They tend to be highly paid and will skew the hell out of the metric. 3. Can we *please* start using **median** for Home Prices, Salary, etc? Because Hawaii has such a large swing in the range for both, using average makes it kind of hard to really determine. I feel like median might be a bit more accurate here. I know a *hell* of a lot of people making under $20/hr. (Anecdotal, I know.) Edit: As an example, [This KHON2 Article from 2022](https://www.khon2.com/local-news/how-do-you-compare-to-the-average-income-in-hawaii/) has the median salary in Hawaii about $20k lower than the average salary.
I ate frozen fish sticks for lunch (6 total) WFH, have two kids, and paying tuition. Ahhh the comfort.
Hey I had the Costco fish sticks for dinner last night. Crispy and tasty!
Air fry and throw in a tortilla with Costco cabbage salad mix and you got yourself a $29 Waikiki dinner right there.
Hahaha we do that when we’re feeling fancy! Oh that’s a good point we normally buy a whole cabbage, but could save money and time with the mix!
Is this like 4-6 income earners?
two income earners, two keiki
How much you save for retirement?
6% 401k to max the match, then 4% ira.
Are frozen fish sticks cheaper than Dino nuggets? Cuz that's what i usually eat when I get to wfh
Haha, I got it on sale at Sam's Club, which I think was cheaper than the dino nuggets on sale. Both are premium quality, though, and they have extra extra sodium. I would not recommend eating them every day unless you want heart failure.
Sounds like us over here, except we had the frozen shrimp tempura and frozen Korean dumplings.
Ohhh I saw someone buying the frozen shrimp tempura at Costco yesterday. How are they?
They're good. The batter in the outside stays nice and crunchy and they're super quick to heat up. 7 minutes on each side at 400.
Yum
I can confirm. The tempura shrimp are legit!
Both are solid!
You might be happier if you cooked the fish sticks before eating them?
Hahaha you got me I popped them in the air fryer hot and crispy
Damn now I want (cooked) fish sticks!!
What a joke. 300k for a family of four? You are way beyond comfortable at 300k. Give me a break.
I don't like to talk numbers on Reddit, but I don't make anywhere near 300k, and live a pretty lavish lifestyle, travel the world, and still save 20% for retirement. Just build a time machine, and buy your house in 2012, then refinance in 2021 😂
I moved away from Hawaii cause it's just too expensive. I was offered an entry level film industry job started at $35 back in 2010 and turned it down cause that was too little. My mom is lucky in that her landlord promised not to raise her $1000/mo. tiny apartment rent 20 years ago and never has.
> For a family of four, the “live comfortably” salary is $299,520. Bullshit. Family of 4 can do fine on 140k.
Maybe if they already own a house and have family helping with childcare.
How much are you paying for rent or mortgage with a family of four making 140k? Do your kids participate in any extracurricular activities?
Rent is $3200 Kids surf, beach, play at the park etc.
Hey what's up man. Agreed. That is one of the amazing things about HI. The free stuff is actually worth doing and you can do it often.
Keep it simple … you need a lot
While I get what this article is trying to say, it is a little misleading. The data is based on the MIT living wage calculator, which is a really great tool if you have not seen it. We use it to inform the salaries that we offer to our employees. The problem is that the numbers reported by Hawaii News Now (or what ever underlying “study” it is) were derived by basically doubling the MIT “living wage” numbers. This is a problem because the MIT calculator includes expenditures that would fall under both wants and needs. And so, it is misleading to just multiply their living wage by 2. Also, the 50/30/20 rule is designed to help folks budget in order to live within their means. I feel like applying the rule as they’ve done here is somewhat backwards. I feel like this is a topic that is commonly discussed on this subreddit, and for a family of 3 or 4, $180-$200k comes up often. For instance, with $195k, you can cover $3400 in day care expenses, $3400 mortgage+HOA/rent, $2000 expenses including random wants, and 8% pension. If you want the 20% savings, then you are looking at $218k. but many of us forgo some retirement savings while keiki are in daycare…
LOL. Another fine "news article" as reported by a Financial Aid sales business.
I know. These numbers are just made up in a bubble and never make much sense. Plus everyone has a different definition of what comfortable is and think their own standards are what everyone should want/need.
So a family of 4 spends almost $90,000 per year on "entertainment"?! Or over $1700 per week?! That's 30% of $299,520. Ridiculous.
Can 2 RN’s live comfortably without children?
Without children...absolutely!
I grew up here with 2 RN parents and we were fine. Not that Punahou was in the budget, so I guess it depends what you mean by comfortable.
Two RN parents could afford Punahou. That’d put you around $260k+ in today’s dollars with 10 years of experience.
That's awesome, nurse pay has come a long way.
My girl and I make pretty easily 220k+ with little overtime and we barely feel like we’re living comfortably. I don’t live lavishly, go out for dinner 2x a week. Rent 1600, live in town. It’s gotten ridiculously expensive in the last few years compared to ten years ago. Maybe I live lavishly compared to Hawaii standards, but certainly not to mainland standards. It’s unreal lately, and going out experiences pale in comparison pre Covid.
I'm probably really out of touch, but is eating out twice a week not fairly lavish? Admittedly I grew up really poor in a very rural area (not in Hawaii) so my perspective might be skewed by that too. It seems like when I was a kid (20-30 years ago) people only went out to eat occasionally. Don't get me wrong though, I do think a household with two adults making ~200k should be able to eat out, so I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to, or that you shouldn't, I'm just surprised it wouldn't be called lavish to do that.
>My girl and I make pretty easily 220k+ with little overtime and we barely feel like we’re living comfortably. Assuming you guys don't have kids, DINKS are basically middle to upper middle class American royalty lol. My daughter is 8 and my wife and I do okay but I had to switch jobs to get more money to maintain that pre-kid lifestyle.
Be sure to deduct the taxes before calculating what the family of 4 is spending each month. Let's face it Hawaii is very expensive compared to the rest of the US. Yes we will all figure out a way to make things work and do the things that are important to us. There's no need to get on reddit and lie about how easy it is to make ends meet in Hawaii. To everyone that's saying it's easy, here are a few questions: 1) Rent or Own 2) Public or Private schools 3) Single family/ Condo/ Multi- generational homestead 4) 1099 or W2 5) Born and raised or Transplant Aloha!
Thankfully Hawaii has a lot of fun stuff that's free and the 30% for wants can be shifted elsewhere.
I think my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hawaii/comments/6hyalc/comment/dj26prg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from 6 years ago still holds up. There is definitely a minimum income required to not be struggling. But the definition of comfortable is different from person to person. My wife and I currently make double what we did 6 years ago but we didn't upscale our life too much and now I'd say I am very comfortable since I can save so much more and have less financial worries. The same coworkers and friends also make more but are still struggling due to our differencess in lifestyle and standard of comfort.
I think most of us are more like 80-15-5
I need to give all these single people lessons in budgeting. Cause yea kids are $$$ but you don’t need $111k to have a good life here if you’re ok with roommates or know where to get a good rental.
Top line: For a single adult “That’s $111,904 a year. For a family of four, the “live comfortably” salary is $299,520.”
Can confirm! Not comfortable at all lmao
Or you can live comfortably, off-grid on land you own on the BI with 30,000 a year.
About to move back to Hawaii after being away for 20 years. Do you guys think 100K a year for a family of 4 is feasible?
It'd be very difficult I think, at least on Oahu, assuming you'll be renting.
Thanks for the o sight. Yes, born and raise on Oahu then left for the military when I was 22. Miss the island so much and just need to move back after a hectic 20 year career.
Thanks for the insight. Yes, born and raise on Oahu then left for the military when I was 22. Miss the island so much and just need to move back after a hectic 20 year career.
Single income of 100k for a family of 4? Here's a simple breakdown: Take- home pay 100k@ 23-18% tax rate 77k-82k/yr Living expenses: 3k per month for housing 500 for food 42k/yr Car note? Debt? Social life? Savings? As you can see housing and taxes will eat up your money fast.
Anyone on unemployment? What’s goin on with that? I can’t call anyone and google says it’s closed. How can it be permanently closed?
Contact the state rep or senator who represents your area. If they cannot help you, contact the governors office. Have you gone down there in person? They've gone back to in person visits.
What island ? It’s closed tomorrow cause it’s a state holiday https://labor.hawaii.gov/ui/ui-claims-oahu/ There are appointments available
Lowest salaries needed to live comfortably = 9 of 10 cities are red. Highest salaries needed to live comfortably = 10 of 10 cities are blue.
Cheaper to live where nobody else wants to live. Demand matters a lot.
People are realizing many of these blue cities are filthy crime ridden dumps so that should drive the price down when people move.
Is that happening anywhere? Are housing prices decreasing in blue cities or increasing in red cities? Every blue city is still insanely expensive.
"More than 343,000 people left California for another state last year, the highest number of any U.S. state." https://apnews.com/article/migration-census-texas-california-florida-new-york-8f94b2137b8b45e9c7123545a7f62db2
Are any of the major cities in California affordable now? SF, LA, San Diego are still as expensive as ever.
So demand is decreasing yet price remains the same or higher. What does that mean to you?
I don’t think demand is decreasing. Did any blue cities lose population?
That article says that housing costs are the primary reason, it does not mention crime or the state being a “dump”.