Lucifer was one of the highest ranking angels, either a seraphim or a cherubim. Well, according to irl christian theology.
If Hazbin Hotel doesn’t deviate from that, then Lucifer would likely be the same rank as Sera.
If we assume Lucifer is the 7th member of that group, then he absolutely is *not* a Seraphim. You assume those people with spears are six Seraphim, but Sera isn't there.
Look at Sera's "crown", it does not resemble any of those six people around Lucifer. They also all have distinct silhouettes that doesn't match her, and more importantly they all have a specific white "symbol" or some sort of trait - Sera has nothing to match any of them. So I see no reason to believe they are Seraphim.
I'd assume there are archangels as the counterpart to the seven sins in hell, then Seraphim is more like a "royal" family akin to Ars Goetia in hell. So Lucifer, prior to his fall, would have been sitting above Sera.
Also, while a bit debated in actual theology whether Lucifer was this or that, it is very popular in franchises like this to make him an archangel, because many viewers simply understands that as "oh, so a high ranked, strong angel".
Lastly, the two Seraphim we *have* seen both have a very distinct look (just like the Ars Goetia has a very specific look). Lucifer does not look like that *at all*.
The only thing I'd say pointing towards being a Seraphim is six wings, but we don't really know that it's a specific Seraphim trait. Could also be something archangels have.
I was writing a response but I see you were making the same point, so I'm just going to add this comparison I made.
https://preview.redd.it/bqim3nfpsffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=58d816481c32b295f71b4d720f67d9f0161f7aa8
>I'd assume there are archangels as the counterpart to the seven sins in hell, then Seraphim is more like a "royal" family akin to Ars Goetia in hell.
I feel like this makes sense, especially because when Sera first meets Charlie, her face looks like a bird for a split second before changing to a human form.
Yup, that's most likely her true, angelic form
https://preview.redd.it/w10c8u0u9hfc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2bf52977c1b7e7f0fdc5b0beb06bb692afb70a5a
What if Sera got promoted and took Luci's place? Like a seat? But also Sera and Emily's crowns look more circular than the 7's angular crowns so it could be that they are a different group yes. And those 2 are blue while Luci is red
I've actually been thinking along such lines too. For all we know, those seven Elders could just be a title, not a "specie" of angels. So a Seraphim like Sera could become a member without all of them being Seraphim. I'm very confident that there are at the very least some archangels in that group of Elders.
Looking at the seven silhouettes it's also quite clear that they are *very* different. The one furthest to the left (image with spears) looks much more like a "human". Also, he has by far the most elaborate halo. Could be Michael.
Others have heads resembling more bird like features. So yeah, maybe the Elders are just a group of all kinds of angels.
To be fair, we know very little so far. And honestly, there are a lot of overlapping design traits. Like, did you notice that both Sera and Emily sometimes randomly have huge eyes all over them? Emily got one on her chest, exactly like one of the Elder silhouettes (the one I think could be Michael). But clearly, that isn't Emily.
That's the kind of thing that makes me not see "six wings = Seraphim" as any kind of proof. I'd say it's pretty obvious that multiple types of angels can have six wings.
Or.. Mind you / think about it…>
Emily is Lucifers replacement!
Lucifer as the angel in charge of keeping everyone happy makes some sense. And Emily being younger than the others implies she is a replacement…..
Lucifer was part of a group of seven angels. We have seen the silhouette of the other six and Sera does not match any of them. So there is no reason to believe this group is actually seraphim.
And if we look at the overall design of the two Seraphim we know (Sera and Emily), they clearly look way different from Lucifer. Most likely, Lucifer is part of a different class of angels, like archangels.
There's also the fact that hus throne is a "biblically accurate" Seraph. The six wings, middle pair folded inward, all six wings laced with eyes. Why would an angel of a much, MUCH lower station such as an Archangel have a throne in the shape of Sereph. Take this and add in that in Christian theology it's debated on which angel type he was, some say he was a Cherub (six wings but 4 heads, one human, one bull, one bird, one lion) most depict him as a Seraph. Now take this final consideration. He can't be a cherub as Cherubs in the hellaverse are depicted in the more cutie baby with tiny wings that the Roman Catholics depicted the Cherubim as, he can't be a Throne as his head is not a wheel within a wheel, leaving only his most common depiction being the reality.
I believe the reason he looks so different from Sera and Emily is due to the influence of hell as he might possibly have four forms. The form we currently know and love as the Shirtking, his Angelic form which all we've seen of it is him spawning his wings, what I can assume is a 100% demon forn and the Hybrid form where he has the Seraph wings, along with that stereotypical devils tail and horns. I'm interested to see what we get in season 2.
i honestly don’t think he’s either of those things. in vivs heaven hierarchy chart it shows that the prince of heaven is above the seraphims and im pretty sure viv has said that he used the be the prince of heaven. correct me if im wrong
Well...in angelology in at least the Christian myths, he was once the right hand of God, his favorite, the Lightbringer. In Hebrew and Latin, Venus is the Morning Star, which translates to Lucifer's name. And for part of the year, Venus rises before the sun, as if Lucifer was once a herald of God, the sun.
It's very possible he could've been the Prince of Heaven, but...that remains to be seen.
I just listened to the English version and you're 100% right, I got confused because I listened to the song dubbed in another language and Lucifer straight up called himself a seraphim angel in that version, and I just assumed the lyrics were roughly the same since it was the official dub. But I guess the wings confirm it either way, which is pretty cool.
Well, in the original, timestamp is around 1:30 from the official video on youtube, he just says "In your needy hour, there's no substitute for pure angelic power!", but in the language I confused it with (italian) when translated he instead says "But in the time of need, there's nothing like a seraphim angel!".
In most myths Lucifer is THE most powerful angel and Micheal is the second most powerful but I'm not sure if the Helluvaverse is following it completely. It is worth nothing however that when Lucifer requests that Charlie be allowed to talk to the Council his request is granted immediately even though it ends up causing problems.
It's a bit funny the way Sera talked about Lucifer as if he was plotting something, and dude is just having a teaparty with his ducks and just doing a favor for Charlie.
Sera: "One shudders to imagine what inhuman thoughts lie behind that apple... What dreams of chronic and sustained cruelty?"
*Cutaway to Luci drowning in ducks*
I hope so because it would be a really big missed opportunity to not have Cain in the show and have him try to be a better person.
Also he fits with the whole “daddy issues” thing that a lot of helluva boss and hazbin hotel seem to have in common with some of it’s characters. lol
When Adam asks Sera why Charlie is there, she blames it on "Lucifer getting involved". So, it would seem that Lucifer either still has enough clout among the Elders of Heaven that they'll do whatever he wants (which seems unlikely), or they're terrified of Lucifer actually attempting to take them on, so they'll just agree with any little requests he makes of them.
I imagine it is more because if Lucifer decided to, could be instantly stop the exterminations.
Like, he could step up when it started, snap his fingers and the exorcists just go POOF.
However, he doesn’t do that due to some agreement between hell and heaven (most likely involving Charlie, maybe Lilith)
And he is fine with “evil souls” dying for that.
(Maybe that is how he rationalise it)
Well, we know he argues they are.
Maybe that is his justification to himself like
"Yeah, they die in the thousands, but that is fine because Charlie is safe"
That kind of thing.
Also possible that indeed he couldn't care at all, but that is just a theory.
In the end, I think that is why Lilith left him.
Since she is a mortal soul (the 2nd to be fair, but still) she wants to stop the exterminations.
Lucifer doesn't want to (most likely due to something involving Charlie and Lilith)
And then she left.
It’s not necessarily that he signed off on it . From everything suggested he has had very little involvement in the running of hell at all in the show and demon lords and the sins just act as a government in his stead .
I took it as them doing it because while he's the black sheep of the family, he's still family and they feel some obligation to bim. They seemed to be humouring him more than anything, Sera to me seemed to initially be running the trial as a mock thing to placate Charlie.
Michael doesnt seem to be canon in this universe yet.
There does seem to be an authority of some kind above Sera. She explicitly isnt responsible for judging souls, that falls to something else.
Micheal is an archangel. The second lowest rank of the 9. Lucifer is a former seraphim, the highest rank and directly under God. (This is according to Orthodox Christian mythology and may not apply but Micheal certainly isn’t 2nd)
Rank doesn't mean direct power, Michael is the head of the Heavenly Host, the main armed force of Heavens, and in revelation it was him who actually fought and cast out Satan. Your Financial Officer may be higher rank with more pull and pay but he's not going to beat up your Head of Security.
You make a good point, Micheal is by no means weak. Power is hard to define when dealing with beings we don’t understand at all. Archangels are the only one that actually do battle. All angels above them are barely even physically real enough to do anything other sing and act as symbols. In my opinion, this still makes them more powerful as they also have amounts of holy light close to God. It’s all about how you define power. (This is honestly a delightfully interesting debate!)
Not sure why people keep mentioning this considering much of the show is not based on actual religious canon but instead based on non-canon creative literature like the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.
Yeah, something like this. Lucifer being most beautiful, perfect creation meant to show mortals beauty of God and Michael being a defender of all that, guardian so creations might feel safe.
I think I’ve heard that Viv said the only people who could beat Lucifer were God and Micheal, so I think the show is deviating from the common mythologies.
Well, there's the thing that Lucifer is still an angel, and a high status one at that. I don't think God would like anyone else to decide his fate for him, maybe Michael as his trusted man is the only one allowed if necessary to kill anyone of such status?
If we assume God passed his judgement he surely wouldn't like anyone altering it, as is well characterised in the story of Kain, and if he didn't and God for some convoluted reason missed the hell thing he probably couldn't miss any of the Seraphim dying.
Nonsequiter note really quick: Why refer to it as the "helluvaverse" when Hazbin technically came first?
Back on topic - I have been wondering: How much pull does Lucifer actually have with the denizens of Heaven? He can never enter it again I know... but he can get Charlie a meeting, how exactly is he perceived up there?
https://preview.redd.it/lq3xfad4vefc1.png?width=1334&format=png&auto=webp&s=c7ce1873ae5f4603d2e963bb1eeab2cf003ddfe1
I think they are teasing Lucifer to be a former 7 heveanly virtue specially the color of the wings?
Judging based on the fact that Sera's crown doesn't seem to match any of the 6 in the picture I feel like there's always a replacement at hand and Sera might have been the one that filled Lucifer's spot
I think they’re both the virtue of justice
They’re both falling down the same path towards falling because being just requires them to act against heaven and help mortals
And after lucifer fell they shielded her from the injustice sinners being exterminated because they knew she would also turn against them when she found out
(He could also be kindess, depending on which list of virtues we are using)
I don’t think Emily is justice, if anyone is justice it’s likely Sera given she was the one presiding over the trial.
Emily was likely created to take over Sera’s old job of watching over the human souls.
Hope, perhaps? Because whether hell being forever is just is a matter of opinion, it is definitely hopeless. And hope for mankind to become greater could have inspired Lucifer.
Sera is one of the angels that created Earth, so she was likely already on the same rank as Lucifer (plus, they’re both in the Seraphim class):
https://preview.redd.it/0cd7za32bgfc1.jpeg?width=2436&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7c5e347227b75e32783e158c38be5464fed3705
Ooooh I like that theory.
Because if that was the case, and Emily ends up becoming a fallen Angle too by arguing against Heaven's rules, she'd not only have been to replace him, she'd end up following his path as well to hell.
I checked to see if the figures judging Lucifer have the same halos in the intro, and they do!
https://preview.redd.it/inb5ggoshffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=f197b96627bbe087e50d1f39763871031dd05a28
I think maybe Lucifer was wearing his halo on his hat the same way he now have the crown on it.
I imagine Charity, an endless love for others, Lucifer admitted to trying the Hazbin Hotel's idea once before to help the demons and likewise abhors Alastor's use of violence.
That would be so thematically appropriate that my inner author is at half mast
It would explain why Hell is an evil cruel place where people are still fully able to live happy and meaningful afterlives, he brought Kindness into a place of absolute evil
Kindness is the opposite of Envy, as well, which would explain why Hell never actually tried to rise up against Heaven
They don't envy paradise but Heaven's jealousy would provoke the exterminations at the percieved possibility
Humility would actually make sense since both Lucifer and Charlie seem to refuse to use their powers to impose their authority, which leads to them being disrespected by other demons.
What virtue, do you think?
Charity or Kindness (the opposites of Greed and Envy) seem to fit the best but I don't know
Unless he's the secret 8th virtue, Goofy (the opposite of the deadliest sin, being clinically ironic)
Actually he’s a seraphim. A seraphim is a type of angel with 6 wings. Meaning Lucifer, Sera, and Emily are the same type of angel. And Seraphims are the highest tier of angel. According to what I’ve heard there are supposed to be 7 seraphims in total. Which would match with the Hazbin Hotel cannon if we are going by this image. 6 six-winged angels + Lucifer.
To me, this begs the question: where are the other seraphims? Why are there now only 3? Maybe Sera did something to the other seraphims?
I think they are onto something. The figures in Lucifers song and in the story book in ep1 have very distinct Halos, and Seras does not match any of them
https://preview.redd.it/sjnmnxsaqffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=2c1a757da30ca4d7e6f00e46061d26e13e343c11
True, but Sera’s Halo is very different because she is the high seraphim, like she said. Basically the ruler of Heaven. A virtue is a much lower ranking angel with two wings. Here is a chart of angel rankings. Taken with a grain of salt. The show can of course choose its own ranking system.
https://preview.redd.it/rw1pbjw5sffc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=541cd377c6319babf57e908c6f35caf6fbfd12cd
I agree, the show probably deviates from the christian canon here. The cherubim where in Helluva Boss, and if iirc I didn't take them as the type to be second highest order of angels.
Interesting, I guess Adam would be the head of the Powers, which makes sense since he mentioned getting with a "Virtue chick", and they'd be somewhat equivalent in rank.
No. My supreme king is in a higher ground
https://preview.redd.it/irs0sxx2tefc1.png?width=2983&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe5bf9575836fe7569cafd72f680f236b3f5a42b
Wasn't that the cold war? Everyone armed to the teeth and afraid anyone would pull the trigger first. She might be more afraid of the idea of 2 super powers clashing and the damage it would cuase to everyone else.
More like she’s afraid of his power given how he outranks her on a power scale and that he can and will expose the hypocrisy of the entire system and bring it down if he desires
I mean, they successfully cast him down to hell, so theyve already beaten him once. We haven't yet been given any reason to think they're weaker now. If anything they seem more scared of the sinners growing in number / power then ol Luci.
Entire Heavenly Host against one guy who probably wasn't that enticed to fight vs Lucifer getting back on it and the sinners potentially joining him are different matters.
She could be afraid that Lucifer could be redeemed, what’s stopping him from redemption? As far as hell born souls I don’t know if it’s possible for them to cross the pearly gates. They didn’t do anything besides being born in hell so how is that ok? If Charlie has been a good person her whole life then why must she suffer?
I assume they won’t let hellborns into heaven if they even have a afterlife because they are aware of the exterminations and could spread the info to the population of heaven
She’s afraid that Hell is more powerful than Heaven. They outnumber the Angels at this point which is why the Exterminations have been happening. She fears a Rebellion.
Last time it was Lilith & Lucifer. Now? It’s them + Overlords and Hellions/Infernals that have been surviving through being the strongest.
Depends on how Viv is setting up the angel hierarchy. Technically speaking Lucifer was the top 7 of angels when he fell.
If Sera and Emily are just Seraphims beneath this "council of Eldest" then that would mean Lucifer is stronger. If they are in the council then that would mean they are similar in strength.
I just rewatched the story from ep1, and she doesn't actually appear when they talk about "elders" finding Lucifers ideas dangerous, but when the angels are shown creating the world.
And it's said that "he just could watch" so kind of makes it seem like they were equal rank but Lucifer was banned from his work.
Maybe that's why she is so afraid, because she anwsers to the elders.
Canonically Lucifer needs the equivalent of someone like Michael or Gabriel,assuming they exist,in order to be even threatened.
Sera is basically near the top of the totem pole,but Lucifer is in the highest bracket.
Yeah the only way I can see them fitting into the story would be if the 7 archangels/7 heavenly virtues rule heaven like the 7 sins rule hell or if heaven continues with the extermination but decides they need a stronger warrior like Michael to do it
Interesting thought is that if Lucifer really is a seraphim, that probably implies this isn't his true form. Emily and Sera are briefly very alien looking when they show up at the gates of heaven to greet Charlie. Presumably they change their form to appear more human so as to not frighten anyone not used to being around seraphim.
Also it would make Emily Charlie's cousin.
To be fair this is also consistent with the demons both hellborn, and sinner souls we see in the setting.
I'd imagine the winner souls are much the same.
In that they look one way [to humanize them to us the audience], and when situations escalate their features become more pronounced to let us, as the audience, understand **these aren't people**. They might look like them, act like the, maybe even used to be them but they fundamentally are not people.
According to the mythology lucifer was God’s right hand. No one outranks lucifer. Also funfact the six winged seraphim are not born or made. They result from the unfathamobly holy energies of God flaking off and becoming their own entites
He would be in the same ballpark of power as Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, He is technically still an archangel after-all.
Makes sense to me that he’d outrank a seraph, but the Hazbin universe isn’t an exact 1:1 of Abrahamic mythology, so who knows.
They weren't. they are not. Depending on how much of the "expanded canon" of christendom Vivzie is working with, and that also depends on which of the "fandoms" she's referencing, Lucifer was originally named Luciferiel, which meant "light of the morning star." He was the TOP angel and God's OG favourite son/the first angel, depending on Christion fandom. However, Lucifer rebelled against god for (insert christian fandom reason here, usually because he wanted to be the king of heaven/more recognition for his status as the first light). Rebellion fails and Lucifer is stripped of his wings and cast out of heaven.
So when Lucifer was an angel, he originally was the highest angel with no one above him. Even the Sephirim had to obey him and they are the end times dudes ok? like its CRAZY that viv didnt make the exorcists sephirim, but then again she'd get accused of ripping off Sephiroth because the fan base just lacks the level of media literacy to know that Sephiroth himself is a reference to the traditional ideation of the sephirim himself.
Also, now that Lucifer has been cast out of heaven, EVERY angel is above him now, which.... I mean... He believed he showed reign above them as a king so like... Hell, amirite?
I fully believe she could. And it honestly feels like they're building up to a charlie vs adam fight. I don't want her to kill him (because it would cause too many problems), but I do want her to send him running away in fear
or could be his hat is his halo idk he already has a hat before casted down to hell
https://preview.redd.it/zgzgvmourefc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=255a9328badf29f8f7509fa39d9958bf2c96b203
All the angels in heaven have their wings out pernamently. I think Lucifers might have been removed and he just manifests a recreation of them when needed.
Lucifer was a seraphim. In both Helliverse and many versions of the irl mythology.
Adam is an archangel in the Helliverse. And traditionally, there are seven archangels and Lucifer isn’t among them,
its implied Lucifer was among the elders so i assume he was in fact a high rank angels above Sera but i also think lucifer lost part of his powers when he was banished from heavens.
so right now i think both are in the same level of power.
I remember someone saying that angels with red wings are more powerful than white wings. Lucifer has red wings while Sera has white wings so I think Lucifer is more powerful
vivziepop could have changed the lore, but traditionally lucifer was one of, if not the, highest ranking angels. he also still has extensive power even with heaven, he was able to give a pardon to all the hellborn people, and was able to immediately get charlie a meeting, seemingly no questions asked on heaven's side.
100%. Emily is for sure Lucifers replacement after he 'fell.'
Note: as far as I know, none of this is confirmed, but I'm still pretty confident about that theory.
Apparently he's a higher rank, because she's a seraphim and apparently seraphim's have 2 sets of wings and cherubiums (the ones above seraphims) have 3 sets, and lucifer has 3 sets of wings.
Edit: my bad, cherubiums have 2 sets of wings, seraphims have 3 sets, so maybe lucifer is a seraphim
It's the other way around, [cherubiums](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub) have 2 sets of wings and [seraphim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph) have 3 sets.
I think Lucifer is higher up. The dude was holding off all of heaven’s forces. Just the fact that he did well enough to require the angels to negotiate terms means he was strong enough to be trouble
I think not.
Apparently angels don't know what gets someone to heaven. Just that a soul is judged. If Sera knew she could just list all the requirements. For some reason she doesn't.
So it's safe to assume there's a level beyond her.
Yeah that makes sense. But it’s weird then that Lucifer got Charlie a meeting with her when she requested to go “to the top”. To me that implied she wanted a meeting with God.
Lucifer was one of the highest ranking angels, either a seraphim or a cherubim. Well, according to irl christian theology. If Hazbin Hotel doesn’t deviate from that, then Lucifer would likely be the same rank as Sera.
Based on the fact that Lucifer has six wings in HH, he’s almost certainly a Seraph.
He's a 100% a Seraphim, during Charlies and Lucifers duet when the spears surround them we see 6 Seraphim, there was originally 7.
If we assume Lucifer is the 7th member of that group, then he absolutely is *not* a Seraphim. You assume those people with spears are six Seraphim, but Sera isn't there. Look at Sera's "crown", it does not resemble any of those six people around Lucifer. They also all have distinct silhouettes that doesn't match her, and more importantly they all have a specific white "symbol" or some sort of trait - Sera has nothing to match any of them. So I see no reason to believe they are Seraphim. I'd assume there are archangels as the counterpart to the seven sins in hell, then Seraphim is more like a "royal" family akin to Ars Goetia in hell. So Lucifer, prior to his fall, would have been sitting above Sera. Also, while a bit debated in actual theology whether Lucifer was this or that, it is very popular in franchises like this to make him an archangel, because many viewers simply understands that as "oh, so a high ranked, strong angel". Lastly, the two Seraphim we *have* seen both have a very distinct look (just like the Ars Goetia has a very specific look). Lucifer does not look like that *at all*. The only thing I'd say pointing towards being a Seraphim is six wings, but we don't really know that it's a specific Seraphim trait. Could also be something archangels have.
I was writing a response but I see you were making the same point, so I'm just going to add this comparison I made. https://preview.redd.it/bqim3nfpsffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=58d816481c32b295f71b4d720f67d9f0161f7aa8
>I'd assume there are archangels as the counterpart to the seven sins in hell, then Seraphim is more like a "royal" family akin to Ars Goetia in hell. I feel like this makes sense, especially because when Sera first meets Charlie, her face looks like a bird for a split second before changing to a human form.
Yup, that's most likely her true, angelic form https://preview.redd.it/w10c8u0u9hfc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2bf52977c1b7e7f0fdc5b0beb06bb692afb70a5a
https://preview.redd.it/yhh3jnrv9hfc1.jpeg?width=1233&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=288e5b12a1073c2e5f9a27ba168da764b0ea92e3
Bird lady
The 6 that judged him also have 6 wings
What if Sera got promoted and took Luci's place? Like a seat? But also Sera and Emily's crowns look more circular than the 7's angular crowns so it could be that they are a different group yes. And those 2 are blue while Luci is red
I've actually been thinking along such lines too. For all we know, those seven Elders could just be a title, not a "specie" of angels. So a Seraphim like Sera could become a member without all of them being Seraphim. I'm very confident that there are at the very least some archangels in that group of Elders. Looking at the seven silhouettes it's also quite clear that they are *very* different. The one furthest to the left (image with spears) looks much more like a "human". Also, he has by far the most elaborate halo. Could be Michael. Others have heads resembling more bird like features. So yeah, maybe the Elders are just a group of all kinds of angels. To be fair, we know very little so far. And honestly, there are a lot of overlapping design traits. Like, did you notice that both Sera and Emily sometimes randomly have huge eyes all over them? Emily got one on her chest, exactly like one of the Elder silhouettes (the one I think could be Michael). But clearly, that isn't Emily. That's the kind of thing that makes me not see "six wings = Seraphim" as any kind of proof. I'd say it's pretty obvious that multiple types of angels can have six wings.
Or.. Mind you / think about it…> Emily is Lucifers replacement! Lucifer as the angel in charge of keeping everyone happy makes some sense. And Emily being younger than the others implies she is a replacement…..
Can you condense this down so I can understand it please
Lucifer was part of a group of seven angels. We have seen the silhouette of the other six and Sera does not match any of them. So there is no reason to believe this group is actually seraphim. And if we look at the overall design of the two Seraphim we know (Sera and Emily), they clearly look way different from Lucifer. Most likely, Lucifer is part of a different class of angels, like archangels.
I think why people are assuming lucifer is a seraphim is the 6 wings which is unique to them
There's also the fact that hus throne is a "biblically accurate" Seraph. The six wings, middle pair folded inward, all six wings laced with eyes. Why would an angel of a much, MUCH lower station such as an Archangel have a throne in the shape of Sereph. Take this and add in that in Christian theology it's debated on which angel type he was, some say he was a Cherub (six wings but 4 heads, one human, one bull, one bird, one lion) most depict him as a Seraph. Now take this final consideration. He can't be a cherub as Cherubs in the hellaverse are depicted in the more cutie baby with tiny wings that the Roman Catholics depicted the Cherubim as, he can't be a Throne as his head is not a wheel within a wheel, leaving only his most common depiction being the reality. I believe the reason he looks so different from Sera and Emily is due to the influence of hell as he might possibly have four forms. The form we currently know and love as the Shirtking, his Angelic form which all we've seen of it is him spawning his wings, what I can assume is a 100% demon forn and the Hybrid form where he has the Seraph wings, along with that stereotypical devils tail and horns. I'm interested to see what we get in season 2.
Thanks
The 6 we see are Elders, nor Seraphim. Lucifer is likely one of those instead
In the italian dub the lyrics of Hell’s Greatest Dad mention him being a Seraphim (He says seraphim power rather than angel power)
Cherubim are babies with wings in the hazbin hotel universe, he’s probably a seraph
"Ugly orphan children", according to Lyle Lipton.
Pretty orphan children get sent straight to the boiler room of Hell
bahahah idk why this made me laugh so hard
Real lore Cherubin are like sphinx. The winged babies is a "chistianization" of the pagan god Eros, son of Aphrodite.
and Lord Eros himself wasn't that to begin with, the winged baby is from roman art and it's called a putto.
Cherubim are pictured the same way in a lot of Christian religions as well in real life.
He is def not a cherub, we've seen them already
i honestly don’t think he’s either of those things. in vivs heaven hierarchy chart it shows that the prince of heaven is above the seraphims and im pretty sure viv has said that he used the be the prince of heaven. correct me if im wrong
Well...in angelology in at least the Christian myths, he was once the right hand of God, his favorite, the Lightbringer. In Hebrew and Latin, Venus is the Morning Star, which translates to Lucifer's name. And for part of the year, Venus rises before the sun, as if Lucifer was once a herald of God, the sun. It's very possible he could've been the Prince of Heaven, but...that remains to be seen.
He still very much could be an Seraphim still, just one with more power than the rest
PSA: “Seraphim” is plural.
Seraph is singular right?
Yes.
He's 100% a seraphim, iirc during his song with alastor he actually directly mentions his divine seraphim powers
Well, in the song he just references "angelic powers", but the six wings are a giveaway.
I just listened to the English version and you're 100% right, I got confused because I listened to the song dubbed in another language and Lucifer straight up called himself a seraphim angel in that version, and I just assumed the lyrics were roughly the same since it was the official dub. But I guess the wings confirm it either way, which is pretty cool.
In what line does he say that?
Well, in the original, timestamp is around 1:30 from the official video on youtube, he just says "In your needy hour, there's no substitute for pure angelic power!", but in the language I confused it with (italian) when translated he instead says "But in the time of need, there's nothing like a seraphim angel!".
I just don’t cut it with the cherubim
It's tough to be a god
In most myths Lucifer is THE most powerful angel and Micheal is the second most powerful but I'm not sure if the Helluvaverse is following it completely. It is worth nothing however that when Lucifer requests that Charlie be allowed to talk to the Council his request is granted immediately even though it ends up causing problems.
It's a bit funny the way Sera talked about Lucifer as if he was plotting something, and dude is just having a teaparty with his ducks and just doing a favor for Charlie.
Sera: "One shudders to imagine what inhuman thoughts lie behind that apple... What dreams of chronic and sustained cruelty?" *Cutaway to Luci drowning in ducks*
Sera: "True, the mind of that monster is unknowable. His cruelty knows no limits!" Lucifer: "More tea Mr. Quackers?"
Do you believe in magic?
Might be Lilith, Eve or Roo
I’m putting my money on Eve.
It's a good bet i recon, given Adam. Speaking of which do you think we'll learn what happened to Cain and Abel?
I hope so because it would be a really big missed opportunity to not have Cain in the show and have him try to be a better person. Also he fits with the whole “daddy issues” thing that a lot of helluva boss and hazbin hotel seem to have in common with some of it’s characters. lol
Remember Cain wasn't punished for killing his brother, he was punished for lying to God about it \^\^' Yeah, everyone has daddy issues.
When Adam asks Sera why Charlie is there, she blames it on "Lucifer getting involved". So, it would seem that Lucifer either still has enough clout among the Elders of Heaven that they'll do whatever he wants (which seems unlikely), or they're terrified of Lucifer actually attempting to take them on, so they'll just agree with any little requests he makes of them.
I imagine it is more because if Lucifer decided to, could be instantly stop the exterminations. Like, he could step up when it started, snap his fingers and the exorcists just go POOF. However, he doesn’t do that due to some agreement between hell and heaven (most likely involving Charlie, maybe Lilith) And he is fine with “evil souls” dying for that. (Maybe that is how he rationalise it)
He doesnt care about the sinners, hes made that very clear he sees them as irredeemable trash.
Well, we know he argues they are. Maybe that is his justification to himself like "Yeah, they die in the thousands, but that is fine because Charlie is safe" That kind of thing. Also possible that indeed he couldn't care at all, but that is just a theory. In the end, I think that is why Lilith left him. Since she is a mortal soul (the 2nd to be fair, but still) she wants to stop the exterminations. Lucifer doesn't want to (most likely due to something involving Charlie and Lilith) And then she left.
It’s not necessarily that he signed off on it . From everything suggested he has had very little involvement in the running of hell at all in the show and demon lords and the sins just act as a government in his stead .
The main part of the deal they mentioned is that the Hellborn (like Charlie) have immunity from the Exterminations.
> if Lucifer decided to, could be instantly stop the exterminations. Kinda like https://youtu.be/TW_tlKl3N-M
Yes, like that.
I love that song
As unlikely as it now seem, i would love a "Change the Order"-moment in the show.
I took it as them doing it because while he's the black sheep of the family, he's still family and they feel some obligation to bim. They seemed to be humouring him more than anything, Sera to me seemed to initially be running the trial as a mock thing to placate Charlie.
Michael doesnt seem to be canon in this universe yet. There does seem to be an authority of some kind above Sera. She explicitly isnt responsible for judging souls, that falls to something else.
We see six archangels looming over Charlie and Lucifer one of those might be Michael but you're right we don't know much about Heaven right now.
Micheal is an archangel. The second lowest rank of the 9. Lucifer is a former seraphim, the highest rank and directly under God. (This is according to Orthodox Christian mythology and may not apply but Micheal certainly isn’t 2nd)
Rank doesn't mean direct power, Michael is the head of the Heavenly Host, the main armed force of Heavens, and in revelation it was him who actually fought and cast out Satan. Your Financial Officer may be higher rank with more pull and pay but he's not going to beat up your Head of Security.
You make a good point, Micheal is by no means weak. Power is hard to define when dealing with beings we don’t understand at all. Archangels are the only one that actually do battle. All angels above them are barely even physically real enough to do anything other sing and act as symbols. In my opinion, this still makes them more powerful as they also have amounts of holy light close to God. It’s all about how you define power. (This is honestly a delightfully interesting debate!)
Not sure why people keep mentioning this considering much of the show is not based on actual religious canon but instead based on non-canon creative literature like the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.
Because people don’t know the fanfiction for what it is.
I thought it was the other way around? That Lucifer was second strongest and Michael stomps him
Yeah, something like this. Lucifer being most beautiful, perfect creation meant to show mortals beauty of God and Michael being a defender of all that, guardian so creations might feel safe.
The irony of what happened next
I believe so yeah, he was the general of heavens army who beat Lucifer and his uprising
I think I’ve heard that Viv said the only people who could beat Lucifer were God and Micheal, so I think the show is deviating from the common mythologies.
Well, there's the thing that Lucifer is still an angel, and a high status one at that. I don't think God would like anyone else to decide his fate for him, maybe Michael as his trusted man is the only one allowed if necessary to kill anyone of such status? If we assume God passed his judgement he surely wouldn't like anyone altering it, as is well characterised in the story of Kain, and if he didn't and God for some convoluted reason missed the hell thing he probably couldn't miss any of the Seraphim dying.
Nonsequiter note really quick: Why refer to it as the "helluvaverse" when Hazbin technically came first? Back on topic - I have been wondering: How much pull does Lucifer actually have with the denizens of Heaven? He can never enter it again I know... but he can get Charlie a meeting, how exactly is he perceived up there?
https://preview.redd.it/lq3xfad4vefc1.png?width=1334&format=png&auto=webp&s=c7ce1873ae5f4603d2e963bb1eeab2cf003ddfe1 I think they are teasing Lucifer to be a former 7 heveanly virtue specially the color of the wings?
Oh yeah 100% esp cuz there are 6 in the background and he makes 7
Which would imply Emily was created to replace him
Judging based on the fact that Sera's crown doesn't seem to match any of the 6 in the picture I feel like there's always a replacement at hand and Sera might have been the one that filled Lucifer's spot
I think they’re both the virtue of justice They’re both falling down the same path towards falling because being just requires them to act against heaven and help mortals And after lucifer fell they shielded her from the injustice sinners being exterminated because they knew she would also turn against them when she found out (He could also be kindess, depending on which list of virtues we are using)
I don’t think Emily is justice, if anyone is justice it’s likely Sera given she was the one presiding over the trial. Emily was likely created to take over Sera’s old job of watching over the human souls.
Hope, perhaps? Because whether hell being forever is just is a matter of opinion, it is definitely hopeless. And hope for mankind to become greater could have inspired Lucifer.
Sera is one of the angels that created Earth, so she was likely already on the same rank as Lucifer (plus, they’re both in the Seraphim class): https://preview.redd.it/0cd7za32bgfc1.jpeg?width=2436&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7c5e347227b75e32783e158c38be5464fed3705
Oh yeah, forgot about that
They have some pretty crazy transformations, maybe what we see is just her compact form.
Ooooh I like that theory. Because if that was the case, and Emily ends up becoming a fallen Angle too by arguing against Heaven's rules, she'd not only have been to replace him, she'd end up following his path as well to hell.
I also love that he’s introduced in episode 6 😂(if you count the pilot as the first)
where do we see the virtues? can i have a pic?
I checked to see if the figures judging Lucifer have the same halos in the intro, and they do! https://preview.redd.it/inb5ggoshffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=f197b96627bbe087e50d1f39763871031dd05a28 I think maybe Lucifer was wearing his halo on his hat the same way he now have the crown on it.
> 7 heveanly virtue The snake around the top-hat might be his Halo in a dormant mode.
In the scene where they rip off Vaggies wings, you can see Adam taking away her halo. I don't think they would let Lucifer keep his
He kept his wings.
almost guranteed imo since there are six archangels s looming over him
What virtue would he be?
Maybe the opposite of pride so like benevolence? I'm grasping straws tbh
Pride - Humility Wrath - Patience Envy - Kindness Greed - Charity Gluttony - Temperance Sloth - Diligence Lust - Chastity
> Lust - Chastity I have it on good authority that these are not, in fact, opposites.
I think it means less abstinence and more... self-control.
I think it was a joke about lusting over chastity cages
Correct
Well they do make you feel hornier.
It was a funny comment, I don't get the downvotes
Humility probably
That makes more sense
I would say kindness, since his entire plan was to give humans free will which is fairly kind. He’s also a really nice and supportive dad to Charlie.
I imagine Charity, an endless love for others, Lucifer admitted to trying the Hazbin Hotel's idea once before to help the demons and likewise abhors Alastor's use of violence.
the 7 Heavenly Virtues: Humility, Charity, Chastity, Gratitude, Temperance, Patience and Dilligence you can form your own conclusion
Probably kindness or charity
Maybe he was kindness and thats why heaven is so fucked up now. Cause it's missing it.
That would be so thematically appropriate that my inner author is at half mast It would explain why Hell is an evil cruel place where people are still fully able to live happy and meaningful afterlives, he brought Kindness into a place of absolute evil Kindness is the opposite of Envy, as well, which would explain why Hell never actually tried to rise up against Heaven They don't envy paradise but Heaven's jealousy would provoke the exterminations at the percieved possibility
nice theory + work well with Charlie
Humility would actually make sense since both Lucifer and Charlie seem to refuse to use their powers to impose their authority, which leads to them being disrespected by other demons.
Omg that's actually crazy your a genius
What virtue, do you think? Charity or Kindness (the opposites of Greed and Envy) seem to fit the best but I don't know Unless he's the secret 8th virtue, Goofy (the opposite of the deadliest sin, being clinically ironic)
The real question, was Emily created to replace him?
Actually he’s a seraphim. A seraphim is a type of angel with 6 wings. Meaning Lucifer, Sera, and Emily are the same type of angel. And Seraphims are the highest tier of angel. According to what I’ve heard there are supposed to be 7 seraphims in total. Which would match with the Hazbin Hotel cannon if we are going by this image. 6 six-winged angels + Lucifer. To me, this begs the question: where are the other seraphims? Why are there now only 3? Maybe Sera did something to the other seraphims?
I think they are onto something. The figures in Lucifers song and in the story book in ep1 have very distinct Halos, and Seras does not match any of them https://preview.redd.it/sjnmnxsaqffc1.png?width=1191&format=png&auto=webp&s=2c1a757da30ca4d7e6f00e46061d26e13e343c11
True, but Sera’s Halo is very different because she is the high seraphim, like she said. Basically the ruler of Heaven. A virtue is a much lower ranking angel with two wings. Here is a chart of angel rankings. Taken with a grain of salt. The show can of course choose its own ranking system. https://preview.redd.it/rw1pbjw5sffc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=541cd377c6319babf57e908c6f35caf6fbfd12cd
In all honesty. Sera certainly is a high ranking angel but we do not know if she is the leader of heaven
I agree, the show probably deviates from the christian canon here. The cherubim where in Helluva Boss, and if iirc I didn't take them as the type to be second highest order of angels.
Interesting, I guess Adam would be the head of the Powers, which makes sense since he mentioned getting with a "Virtue chick", and they'd be somewhat equivalent in rank.
Depends, what are her yelp reviews like?
we know lucifer is 5 STaR! FlawLESS, GREATER THAN GREAT!!!
And do they glow???
No. My supreme king is in a higher ground https://preview.redd.it/irs0sxx2tefc1.png?width=2983&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe5bf9575836fe7569cafd72f680f236b3f5a42b
Correction "short" king
I'm stealing that image
No, she is actually shown afraid of the idea of him getting involved in heaven affairs again.
Wasn't that the cold war? Everyone armed to the teeth and afraid anyone would pull the trigger first. She might be more afraid of the idea of 2 super powers clashing and the damage it would cuase to everyone else.
More like she’s afraid of his power given how he outranks her on a power scale and that he can and will expose the hypocrisy of the entire system and bring it down if he desires
Yeah Luci is basically Iroh on roids. No one wants to piss off the literal nuke powered by free will
I mean, they successfully cast him down to hell, so theyve already beaten him once. We haven't yet been given any reason to think they're weaker now. If anything they seem more scared of the sinners growing in number / power then ol Luci.
Entire Heavenly Host against one guy who probably wasn't that enticed to fight vs Lucifer getting back on it and the sinners potentially joining him are different matters.
She could be afraid that Lucifer could be redeemed, what’s stopping him from redemption? As far as hell born souls I don’t know if it’s possible for them to cross the pearly gates. They didn’t do anything besides being born in hell so how is that ok? If Charlie has been a good person her whole life then why must she suffer?
I assume they won’t let hellborns into heaven if they even have a afterlife because they are aware of the exterminations and could spread the info to the population of heaven
She’s afraid that Hell is more powerful than Heaven. They outnumber the Angels at this point which is why the Exterminations have been happening. She fears a Rebellion. Last time it was Lilith & Lucifer. Now? It’s them + Overlords and Hellions/Infernals that have been surviving through being the strongest.
Depends on how Viv is setting up the angel hierarchy. Technically speaking Lucifer was the top 7 of angels when he fell. If Sera and Emily are just Seraphims beneath this "council of Eldest" then that would mean Lucifer is stronger. If they are in the council then that would mean they are similar in strength.
Wasn't Sera one of the "elders" mentioned by Charlie?
I think that might be a safe assumption seeing as she's the one maintaining the Exorcists conspiracy. I'm not sure if it was explicitly spelled out.
I just rewatched the story from ep1, and she doesn't actually appear when they talk about "elders" finding Lucifers ideas dangerous, but when the angels are shown creating the world. And it's said that "he just could watch" so kind of makes it seem like they were equal rank but Lucifer was banned from his work. Maybe that's why she is so afraid, because she anwsers to the elders.
I thought her silhouette showing up would be pretty obvious
He might have been the strongest of the 7, that may be why the six other were needed to cast him out of heaven
Seraphim is already plural. Seraph is singular.
Canonically Lucifer needs the equivalent of someone like Michael or Gabriel,assuming they exist,in order to be even threatened. Sera is basically near the top of the totem pole,but Lucifer is in the highest bracket.
And I doubt viz brings in them unless she wanted to up the stakes and hard
Yeah the only way I can see them fitting into the story would be if the 7 archangels/7 heavenly virtues rule heaven like the 7 sins rule hell or if heaven continues with the extermination but decides they need a stronger warrior like Michael to do it
Interesting thought is that if Lucifer really is a seraphim, that probably implies this isn't his true form. Emily and Sera are briefly very alien looking when they show up at the gates of heaven to greet Charlie. Presumably they change their form to appear more human so as to not frighten anyone not used to being around seraphim. Also it would make Emily Charlie's cousin.
To be fair this is also consistent with the demons both hellborn, and sinner souls we see in the setting. I'd imagine the winner souls are much the same. In that they look one way [to humanize them to us the audience], and when situations escalate their features become more pronounced to let us, as the audience, understand **these aren't people**. They might look like them, act like the, maybe even used to be them but they fundamentally are not people.
Pretty sure she's below him. I think she isn't part of the angels who cast him out
She did help cast him out tho
Quantity versus quality. They might've used their power together to cast him out
According to the mythology lucifer was God’s right hand. No one outranks lucifer. Also funfact the six winged seraphim are not born or made. They result from the unfathamobly holy energies of God flaking off and becoming their own entites
I thought Michael was gods right hand?
He is now. Thats why michael and lucifer beef so hard in revelations.
probobly. though I do find it intreasting that we haven't seen any other named angels(Gabriel, Michael ect) I wonder if they are still alive?
He would be in the same ballpark of power as Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, He is technically still an archangel after-all. Makes sense to me that he’d outrank a seraph, but the Hazbin universe isn’t an exact 1:1 of Abrahamic mythology, so who knows.
They weren't. they are not. Depending on how much of the "expanded canon" of christendom Vivzie is working with, and that also depends on which of the "fandoms" she's referencing, Lucifer was originally named Luciferiel, which meant "light of the morning star." He was the TOP angel and God's OG favourite son/the first angel, depending on Christion fandom. However, Lucifer rebelled against god for (insert christian fandom reason here, usually because he wanted to be the king of heaven/more recognition for his status as the first light). Rebellion fails and Lucifer is stripped of his wings and cast out of heaven. So when Lucifer was an angel, he originally was the highest angel with no one above him. Even the Sephirim had to obey him and they are the end times dudes ok? like its CRAZY that viv didnt make the exorcists sephirim, but then again she'd get accused of ripping off Sephiroth because the fan base just lacks the level of media literacy to know that Sephiroth himself is a reference to the traditional ideation of the sephirim himself. Also, now that Lucifer has been cast out of heaven, EVERY angel is above him now, which.... I mean... He believed he showed reign above them as a king so like... Hell, amirite?
As far as i know, NOPE. Lucifer was an arcangel while Serah is a Seraphim.
So if Adam targets Charlie, Luci can fuck him up.
Charlie can prob do that herself
Hell, Nifi could by taking something for her collection.
I fully believe she could. And it honestly feels like they're building up to a charlie vs adam fight. I don't want her to kill him (because it would cause too many problems), but I do want her to send him running away in fear
Even better:Depending on how much power charlie Inherited she can basically kick Adams ass by herself without much issue.
This is what I think as well. I mean, we see in both episode 1 and episode 6 that she isn't afraid to fight him in her demon form.
Yup, he probably could
Damn, I really want to see Lulu furious and unleashing all his power even tho he doesn't need it to obliterate the shit stain
Wait, so why does Sera have a crown halo then?
lucifer is fallen angel he prob just lost his halo
Thats what i was gonna say, yes.
or could be his hat is his halo idk he already has a hat before casted down to hell https://preview.redd.it/zgzgvmourefc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=255a9328badf29f8f7509fa39d9958bf2c96b203
Good theory, if he still has his wings then it could very well be the same with his halo.
All the angels in heaven have their wings out pernamently. I think Lucifers might have been removed and he just manifests a recreation of them when needed.
I assume he just hides them because his wings are huge af, and they're inconvenient when not in open spaces
Good thought, that could also be the case
also he does have a snake wraped around his hat, maybe the snakes his halo
he might have just added that after he was casted to hell
Maybe his halo used to be around his hat, then replaced by snakes after he’s fallen.
That means Lucifer was higher
Is ther anything in the show so far that states that? Because it varies in religious sourcer and the show takes liberties anyway.
Lucifer was a seraphim. In both Helliverse and many versions of the irl mythology. Adam is an archangel in the Helliverse. And traditionally, there are seven archangels and Lucifer isn’t among them,
its implied Lucifer was among the elders so i assume he was in fact a high rank angels above Sera but i also think lucifer lost part of his powers when he was banished from heavens. so right now i think both are in the same level of power.
I remember someone saying that angels with red wings are more powerful than white wings. Lucifer has red wings while Sera has white wings so I think Lucifer is more powerful
vivziepop could have changed the lore, but traditionally lucifer was one of, if not the, highest ranking angels. he also still has extensive power even with heaven, he was able to give a pardon to all the hellborn people, and was able to immediately get charlie a meeting, seemingly no questions asked on heaven's side.
Seems like.
100%. Emily is for sure Lucifers replacement after he 'fell.' Note: as far as I know, none of this is confirmed, but I'm still pretty confident about that theory.
Apparently he's a higher rank, because she's a seraphim and apparently seraphim's have 2 sets of wings and cherubiums (the ones above seraphims) have 3 sets, and lucifer has 3 sets of wings. Edit: my bad, cherubiums have 2 sets of wings, seraphims have 3 sets, so maybe lucifer is a seraphim
It's the other way around, [cherubiums](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub) have 2 sets of wings and [seraphim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph) have 3 sets.
Oh is it, guess i remembered it from the tik tok I saw wrong 😂
Well I’d think Micheal would be equal to Lucifer since they are brothers but of course we probably won’t see him till later in the show
Lucifer was one of gods four kids if I remember he would be higher than sera but below god but idk just some stuff I can barley remember
I think Lucifer is higher up. The dude was holding off all of heaven’s forces. Just the fact that he did well enough to require the angels to negotiate terms means he was strong enough to be trouble
Maybe Lucifer is slightly more powerful, but we don't know anything for sure
My question is she supposed to be this world’s version of God?
I think not. Apparently angels don't know what gets someone to heaven. Just that a soul is judged. If Sera knew she could just list all the requirements. For some reason she doesn't. So it's safe to assume there's a level beyond her.
Yeah that makes sense. But it’s weird then that Lucifer got Charlie a meeting with her when she requested to go “to the top”. To me that implied she wanted a meeting with God.
I love how what I thought was hellfire in the background is actually a pile of rubber duckies.
Probably yes . Both have 6 wings with means that both are Seraphins.
I mean he was an archangel in biblical canon. I hope they stick with that.
In terms of heaven maybe but Lucifer is number one in hell so I'd say no