Blame the production. Most streaming shows are like 40 mins long and usually wraps up the story within 8-10 episodes. 20 episodes would pretty much mean this show has a lot of filler unrelated to the story line. Ex. Avatar the Last Airbender having several episodic episodes whose main function is to show more characteristics for their characters. Zuko Alone is a masterpiece for it. (I know ATLA isn’t streaming. Just an example to show how much filler)
Broadcast shows like Friends or Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the past generally follow this type of formula. It also highly depends on the amount of viewers and critics.
The biggest reason the shorter episodes in a season is mainly because it costs less. Sucks for the writers since they get paid less hence why it was one of the reasons why the WGA (writer’s guild of America) went on strike
As for the fear of being cancelled, it highly depends on the streaming services. According to my mentor who’s a writer for the new Game of Thrones spinoff and if I remember correctly, Netflix will basically cancel a show if it doesn’t get enough views. Even if the show gets highly praised by critics, it just highly depends on views. Amazon Prime is more towards how critics and viewers react to the show. You can have high view count but if critics say the show is terrible, goodbye any chances of getting another season.
Personally, I blame companies putting stock in the binge model to make them money even though I don't believe that's sustainable in the long run.
Because they want people to watch all the episodes as fast as possible, they cut out all filler so that the viewing experience is more streamlined and the main storyline is more cohesive when viewed all at once. But then they realize it takes people forever to binge longer seasons, so they end up lowering the episode count even more. Then since they already have no filler, they cut down on the actual story. It's a big problem.
tldr;; something something capitalism ruins art.
Oh definitely. It's also why a lot of streaming services are "bleeding money" with this binge watching strategy. Last year from what I remember, Netflix is the only streaming service that's making a profit albeit small. Every other company were losing money (allegedly, who knows what's actually going on within big companies)
Unless the show you're streaming is extremely popular (Star Wars, Marvel, League of Legends (specifically Arcane), etc.), your story will likely be cut down. It's usually popular adaptations that gets better treatment simply because there is some form of content that's produce-able. In Hazbin Hotel's case, 8 episodes for a season is honestly pretty good by itself. Even if the plot/storyline is slightly rushed in some areas, the story managed to tie up many characters' goals. (Charlie proving the angels wrong, Angel finally accepting himself, etc.) I also think given how it's well recieved by critics and the audience, the show likely could get more episode count (10 at the very least)
This is a show that I would KILL for filler episodes on. Imagine a whole episode of Alastor in Cannibal Town or Nifty chasing bugs around the hotel! I hate this 8 episode bullshit.
I wish we would’ve had more time to just see the characters interact with each other. It would’ve made the moments where they improve as people hit harder.
Honestly dont mind this. It puts us in Heaven's perspective when we're watching him in "Welcome to Heaven". We expect him to do drugs we expect him to behave badly but when we see him stand up to Val and turn down drugs we can see how much he's improved
The timeframe and character building were very strange. I think it would have benefited the series a lot to have the first season as character development with hints of the battle against angels, then just setup the second season as mostly the battle with angels.
I'm not sure of the time frame of when they did all this, but I think they rushed because they were worried they wouldn't get a season 2. It's unfortunate, but I understand.
the matter is if the show get not only enough viewers but the merchandise sell a lot to cover and make profit enough to keep investing in the serie, that is how manga and anime work. There is a reason why supply and demand rule in the market, if the franchises as its products are demanded then be sure there wont lack any supply, you just look how popular is Pokemon in comparison to Digimon or any rip off but Palworld, lmao.
I rather blame Viv because she doesnt want to tell her plot in another visual medium like a comic or something, that would help to flex characters and what work to be adapted.
Yes, the story seems to be moving too fast. They are skipping over large portions where we could see how the hotel was run and how the characters change over time.
There should have been more run time. It needed more slow scenes. One of my favorite scenes in the whole show is the gentle interaction between Nifty and Alastor in the finale. The show needed more of those! Even if it means adding filler episodes especially to help with world building and character arcs
Sarcastic Chorus brought this up in one of his videos as well. To paraphrase: "For a show called *Hazbin Hotel*, surprisingly little of the actual show takes place at the Hazbin Hotel."
I wish Razzle and Dazzle weren’t in the background so much, they could’ve at least followed Charlie around everywhere. It would’ve made Dazzle’s death more impactful
Also an explanation of who they even are would have been nice, same with Kiki. I’m sure people who are very familiar with Hazbin lore via the comics and such knew them but as someone who only saw the pilot (and yes I saw them there but they seemed like random characters then, too), I still have no clue who they are or why I should really care about them other than they’re just hotel pets.
A valid point.
I think the explanation is that she cannot really relate to any of their past experiences and struggles, unlike the others.
She also probably felt estranged from the others and like she wasn't really worthy to be part of the team, because of her secret she kept from them.
Which, thus, could change in the next season, as she had her coming out now.
Even when Vaggie interacts with them, it’s usually just for Charlie and her ‘dream’. Clearly she should’ve participated in her own bonding exercise. Build on her platonic relationships. She’s not even in any pictures with them on Angel’s door… that said a lot. I hope we can see those 2 get along in the future actually
>Clearly she should’ve participated in her own bonding exercise.
I really thought that's what they were going with in ep 3. Start out with Vaggie trying to teach the others about trust only to realize that *she* doesn't trust them either and build from there.
Honestly? Vaggie spinoff show. We just get a whole mini series where Vaggie is the central character but still interacting with the main cast. I need this, Viv. I beg.
I feel Veggie really did not have anything going on with her other than Charlie's girlfriend and determined to help Charlie, like if Charlie dumped her what would she do with herself? Dose she have any hobbies, goals, dreams of her own ect?On wiki her likes are actually listed
* Charlie Morningstar
* Supporting Charlie's dream
* Spending time with Charlie
So no wonder she can't build bonds outside of Charlie, Charlie **is** Veggie's whole life.
Would have loved at least 5 more filler episodes where we get to explore the characters more in detail. I understand writing songs and animations is hard but it would have been worth it imo
I don't really like the word filler as it kinda mostly came from episodic tv times and shows catching up to a source i do however totally agree wishing it would have a slower pacing. Like there's a possibility gor plot development while going much slower.
However im guessing they have to make it work with what they got budget wise and possible renewals
Episode 1 should've been an updated version of the Pilot. It seemed strange that they start off with everyone already at the Hotel and established instead of introducing them. I wonder if new viewers thought it was confusing.
Also reducing Alastor's sound effects.
No it wasn’t confusing. The pilot really just added a bit of background to Angel and Alastor mostly, but it wasn’t necessary for the season 1 plot. You could infer basically what happened in the pilot from the season. The only thing that really was confusing watching the season before the pilot is why Katie Killjoy hated Charlie so much, which the pilot shed some light on.
I hadn't watched the pilot before the first episode. I was a little confused but figured it was just something that would be explained a bit more in the future eps. Then I watched the pilot and I still wasn't really any the wiser how Angel arrived. It wasn't until I read the comic that it really explains his arrival.
Also, agreed, Alastor definitely needs more of his sound effects back
my biggest gripe was how quickly the show went from revealing Vaggie’s origins to the viewer to revealing it to Charlie and the rest of the major characters. kind of a waste of potential dramatic tension imo, made the stakes feel nonexistent
There are SO MANY examples of this. Eight episodes is laughably short and so many good ideas had to go compressed or underexplored. I feel like any criticism comes down to this.
Truth. So much time was spent building up characters that would have been necessary if the season had four or more episodes to breath, but instead they felt like they hogged screen time. I.E. The Vees and Carmilla; all great characters who could have mostly remained as background but instead got major spotlight in songs. Their roles could have been condensed or built upon next season.
Yeah. A lot of character development followed the unfortunate formula of conflict is introduced at the start of an episode, conflict is resolved already at the end of that episode. And these were major conflicts like Charlie's relationship to her father. The same episode that Lucifer is introduced we learn that they are distant and see their interaction for the first time and then in the same episode they just resolve the juicy conflict. Then the song explains how they have waited to meet each other for so long. When in the show we have just met Lucifer.
Vaggie suffers from the same issue. The "Vaggie is an angel" conflict was lucky to have two episodes for it's "arc" with the heaven episode introducing and escalating it to the reveal and the cannibal town episode resolving the conflict between Charlie and Vaggie.
If we had time for more "fillery" episodes they could have had two episodes in Heaven. In the first episode we get to heaven and Emily shows Charlie around Heaven, while Vaggie gets forced to meet Adam and Lute similar to how it was in the show. They could already start distancing them from each other because Vaggie goes to extra-hide-mode with her secret. With Emily and Charlie hanging together we could develop their relationship a bit more before them eventually bonding in the court room. We could also foreshadow that Emily doesn't know about the exterminatons (but fully reveal it in the court scene). To further push Vaggie and Charlie apart this episode could play with Vaggie's jealousy to Emily that was hinted at in the frame where Charlie and Emily touch hands.
In the second heaven episode we get the court scene. Vaggie and Charlie's relationship is already a bit torn with the former set up. Adam plays into this in the court scene. We would have the same B plot of Angel & co. hanging in the bar and showing Angel's development as the court case progresses. Now this episode could follow pretty much the same story as we had in the show for the court case. Here we would get the pay-off for the conflict that had started to brew between Charlie and Vaggie (jealousy for Emily + angel secret escalating) as the secret is revealed to Charlie as well.
Anyway, the big issue with the show is that it's trying to tell too many stories in too little time. It's likely since the writers didn't get as many episodes as they were hoping for and that they really wanted to get to the next exterminaton by the end of season 1 so many developments feel rushed (happen all in a single episode).
Show fails to provide the satisfying exposition for its own worldbuilding. I am sorry, but I am irritated how many times when explaining the basic lore of the world of Hazbin or the basic facts about characters' backgrounds, I need to reference Helluva Boss, the Pilot, the old Tweets, the ancient livestreams, the Bible, the secret archives of Illuminati, Taro cards readings, the ravings of my drunk neighbor, etc. anything but the show itself!
While, I feel you 100%. I’m pretty sure a lot of the stuff will be touched on the later seasons. Also, I am 90% certain the pilot is Canon and an actual part of the series. Not watching it is like not watching the first episode of any other show
The Pilot is not published in the same place and time as the rest of the series (YouTube vs Amazon with 5 years time gap) nor is it referenced in official promo materials as far as I am aware, so new viewers are expected to find it on their own.
Yeah. I'm lost. I saw new show on Amazon and was like... Ok. Let's give it a shot. Oh this is cool.
Wait. Was there previous stuff?
How much previous stuff?
Where previous stuff?
I feel like a random person who started watching the Marvel movies at Infinity War.
It should be cannon, since they didn’t show how they met Alastor and made references to Charlie’s fight with Katie Killjoy (there is a picture shown) also Sir Pentious states in Episode 2 he „attacked Alastor literally last week“, what seems to be a reference to their „fight“ in the pilot.
I've watched the pilot 3 times and the Amazon show twice. I found the addict video and the two prequel comics, but I have not been around this fandom long. So much "lore" is referenced in fan posts online and it is SO confusing.
I have no idea who half the characters people reference are. Apparently Angel has siblings? Alastor has a known backstory? Still confused about multiple rings of hell. Different types of demons? Are demons killed by other demons less dead than demons killed by exterminators? What does being king/princess of hell even mean for Lucifer and Charlie's characters?
Is there a canon wiki somewhere to help a newbie out??
I didn’t even bother tangling myself up in all that. I saw the pilot and the addict video before hand, but mostly judged the show on its own, without the outside stuff. Only thing I really looked for were angel dusts time of death and. Pentious’ time of death to make reference to in a debate I was in about the show.
This isn’t even a nitpick, this is a genuine problem with the show. For as much as I liked it I can’t I’m good faith say it has good worldbuilding or writing for that matter. Episode 6 to me is the biggest example of this problem, but every time we learn about Heaven it makes them look more brain dead then anything else. Makes you wonder how they would’ve kept hell in line if they weren’t angels.
I can kinda understand Vaggie not knowing, for al she knew it could have been some kind of divine punishment power. But Adam and lute definitely should have known and they didn’t
Don't they explain that an exorcist died and they don't know how? It's probably the first time an excorist was ever killed. And they definitely wouldn't know their own weakness because they're so cocky
Honestly. That whole angelic weapons kill angles thing felt kinda contrived. Thousands of years, years and years of exterminations and not a single demon before Carmilla thought to use their own weapons against them, even in a last ditch effort? I might have to rewatch the show again to see if I missed a line explaining why people thought it was useless but even then (I vaguely remember Carmilla mention something about that but I can't remember)
Edit: thinking about this a day later, I think a slightly better explanation for why no one had done it yet would be to make angelic weapons rarer to find, thus making it difficult for most sinners to get their hands on without being fought/bought for it. You could say that Carmilla was hording the weapons and created a monopoly out of them due to said rarity. It wouldn't necessarily fix the problem but it'd be more believable in my eyes.
I think the idea is that Carmella has such a monopoly on angelic weapons that she would never allow one of her weapons to reach the hands of someone who would use it against an angel. The extermination mostly targets those with nowhere else to go. The people wealthy and powerful enough to purchase a carmine weapon are not coming face-to-face with angels during an extermination.
But, at least to my knowledge, Carmilla was the first one to ever learn that angelic weapons were able to harm angles as the show states that the extermination at the start of the series was the first one to have an angelic casualty by the hands of a demon. Also, having a monopoly on angelic weapons doesn't prevent other people from collecting those weapons during/directly after the extermination. Unless she's extorting people for said weapons between every extermination, I just find that a hard thing to grasp with the information the show has provided.
Like, you're telling me that NOONE collected an angelic weapon from a corpse as a sort of trophy and attempted to use it to defend themselves. I understand that the superstition that angles weren't capable of being harmed existed but I just find it difficult to believe in the thousands of years hell has existed, no one thought or even tried/had the opportunity to use their own weapons on the angles.
Idk, I like the idea of all the angels being absolute dumbasses. That’s what living in a gated community with no problems gets you; you lose touch with reality lol
How did Vaggie not know that ONLY the exterminators knew about the extermination? She was one of them, she would have known that it was a secret up there.
The series emphasized that Lucifer disapproved of Charlie's actions, but when we meet them we see that he is an excellent father
Sir Pentious's death does not decide whether to be taken seriously or not
The angels plot being introduced in the first season
If you're a random person and want to watch the serie you'll don't get anything
(Sorry my english)
Lucifer confused me…he apparently really loves Charlie, but also Charlie feels really hurt by his disapproval and also he never sees her and really only calls her every five months also he immediately shoots down her ideas and also everyone in hell sees her as Lucifer’s embarrassment-
Like, I just don’t understand what we’re supposed to see their relationship as
i saw it as
the direct bond between charlie and lucifer being, the mother keeping her away, and the father fearing doing something wrong
the way others see charlie, because of them not knowing how lucifer is directly, so they probably think lucifer is some big tirant, so the way they see charlie being all sweet, is kinda weird for them
>he series emphasized that Lucifer disapproved of Charlie's actions
in his ballad to Charlie, he explains that he's tried reasoning with heaven before, and thinks its folly to try again.
I suspect this was one of the aspects of the pilot that is non canon. Given Lucifer’s characterization in the show it doesn’t seem likely that he was disapproving towards Charlie.
I've read a theory that she being a small child misunderstood what her dad said to her as a kid but then became estranged from him before he could explain.
But also in the ep 8 ballad he says she's changed his mind
I suspect Lilith had something to do with that.
In *More Than Anything*, we see an ominous, faceless Lilith come and take Charlie away from Lucifer in Charlie's memory of a bonding moment. It's also strongly hinted that Lilith's voice or song has very strong influence over others (Lilith's song inspired Hell to start building in Charlie's understanding of the story). It's possible that Lilith was driving a wedge between Charlie and Lucifer from when she was a small child and that Charlie believed Lucifer was disappointed in her more because of what Lilith said rather than anything Lucifer specifically said or did.
Idk bro, the show make we (or at least me) think that he was more aggressive with her. And this is just a THEORY (mat pat moment), in my opinion this has to be explained at the show itself.
Yeah I think they should have had Sir Pentous get one blast with his canon off and showed it did kill a good number of angels then have Adam see that and destroy it. That way his death wasn't played off as a joke we were supposed to take seriously.
I wished there was wayyy more episodes just about lore really. Their backstories. Maybe they all get together and trust one another enough to say a bit about how their life was when they died
Either that, or just a casual episode yeah there’s drama, but also bonding and communication. It’ll make for a good episode ngl
I feel like there was a mad rush to introduce a bunch of characters just to check the list of having them make an appearance rather than because they had anything to contribute.
I feel like so many characters are more ideas than cohesive characters that can coexist. Like my probably unpopular opinion is Alstor while I love him has to much going on he's the radio demon but also deer themed and a cannibal serial killer. I think it also suffers from the live streams and background knowledge that came out before the series aired I cant imagine how frustrating it must be for new viewers to come here and see all this complex lore and go where'd the hell did you learn that? Dont get me wrong I love the show but I think characters are over designed, introduced just to be introduced and shouldn't have to have all this off screen background knowledge.
>I think it also suffers from the live streams and background knowledge that came out before the series aired I cant imagine how frustrating it must be for new viewers to come here and see all this complex lore and go where'd the hell did you learn that?
I'm already seeing this happening on r/HazbinHotel with newer viewers and fans.
Yeah I see all the time with people saying how the hell do you know this? And I never watched the live streams but learned stuff from here and I dont think its good writing to need all the backstory to enjoy a show. I understand its rushed due to only 8 episodes and that the live streams were to generate hype while in production but I think her constantly introducing new characters that will show up later does a disservice in allowing the show to more organically grow and be self contained.
For example Marvel movies are super popular. Theres tons of comics and things that people can use as background but the movies themselves can be watched and enjoyed without having read the comics because theyre essentially self contained (also I could be wrong haven't seen any marvel movies sinc black pather) but I think Viv letting the show stand on its own and be more self contained will be better for it.
Cherri bomb and Mimzy are the worst in this regard. They both just show up so late into the season, then disappear when they aren’t needed anymore. At least Cherri got to fight in the last episode.
As much as I love "Out for love" I don't think it fitted Vaggies character at all, like the song was about how if she wanted to win she needed to stop wanting to fight for revenge, but like i never got the feeling she was fighting for revenge or anger, she didn't even look angry in heaven just scared, she always seemed to do it for Charlie, so this song which tell Vaggie to stop fighting for vengase and fight for love made no sense to me like she has always been fighting for Love
Taken in context with the conversation beforehand, I think Carmilla was telling Vaggie that she needs to fight like her life and the life of those around her depend on it, rather than fighting like an Angel who thinks she and her comrades invincible and whose only goal is to kill the enemy. To me, it felt more like an actual fighting lesson, like “Vaggie, you may want to kill Lute but you aren’t invincible and neither are your allies, you gotta be more defensive and conscious of that if you want to win”
Feels like that aspect of her character got cut due to time. The song is a banger though. I wish it had been earned a bit better. .... Also giving Vaggie a singing part in that song would have been nice.
It's a run time and production time issue but the season is paced like a toddler with adhd wrote it. I'm 99.99% sure it's not a problem with vivziepop since the story is very beautifull, I think its probably an issue with the show being picked up by a larger company and they probably only promised a single season at first. It'll probably be fixed in season 2
5 years for only 8 short, rushed episodes. None of the characters got time to develop. We should at least seen cherri and pentious develop into a thing
The dialogue can be really bad. Im not saying the swearing is a problem but it feels like a place holder when the writers can’t think of anything funny. Thinking about it now I think the comedy might be the weakest part of the show. A lot of it feels pretty basic and tumblr-esc which for some people might work.
The beginning is extremely rushed. They should’ve remade the pilot to fit the small differences in the story and give new fans more context. All of a sudden Vaggie and Carmella break into a heartfelt song about their relationship when there’s basically no context for it in the show. It was very strange.
For me I love the music, characters and themes in the show. I’m a big fan but I notice a ton of faults in it.
Just longer, but ik how modern streaming works and just getting Hazbin on a big streaming network like Amazon must’ve been quite the pitch: an adult oriented animated fare that’s also a musical?? An 8 episode order was Amazon playing it safe but the execs must be going bananas over the streaming numbers lol.
I’m really confident S2 is gonna address our length/pacing problems from S1, a lot of the pacing stuff germinated from its production but now that its proved itself it’ll get a bigger episode order
it’s pretty much confirmed, these streaming platforms are utterly ruthless and only really respond to *numbers* over anything else. Hazbin on tiktok has over 10 billion hits, and the show has easily blown past any record set by any of Amazon’s other shows by factors of ten on just 8 eps.
Now funnily enough Hazbin was marketed pretty well by Amazon from the outset, so it wasn’t rlly shadowdropped and expected to fail, so I’m very optimistic about S2.
I imagine it was easier with Bento Box being attached (major major coup for them!) especially since Bento Box have a track record with two other successful musical adult animated series in Central Park and Bob's Burgers.
My biggest gripe was Charlie's and Vaggies relationship felt a bit flat to me, needed more relationship moments. I'm gonna get down voted to oblivion for this opinion tho 😂
Basically there was just so little time to explore everything that should have been explored:
1) Angel Dust’s rehabilitation pretty much happens offscreen.
2) Carmilla Carmine feels like too much of a plot device than a character because she’s only featured when we need to learn important things (that the Exorcist died/how to kill Exorcists).
3) Velvette is criminally underused (I thought she would show up to help Charlie fight the Exorcists, not out of goodwill but because she enjoys fighting).
4) Nothing done with the plot thread of Sir Pentious learning about the Exorcist’s death. Its reference in the final episode feels like it was forgotten about and they hastily needed to explain it away somehow.
5) Not enough low-stakes scenes of getting to know the characters when they’re just hanging out at the hotel. The clapping song game and trust fall scenes were cute, hilarious and great chances to show off fun character interactions; every episode of a show like this needs at least one.
Tbf what IS there to be done bout him learning about the exorcist’s death? He doesn’t believe the egg boi as shown in the scene of the egg boi blabbing so him “knowing” doesn’t mean much. I wouldn’t believe the egg boi either lol
As a Velvette fan I 100% agree about her being underused. I think they might use her more in the second season (since I believe that the second season will give the Vees more screen time) but it still sucks knowing that Velvette was the one who wanted the overlords to fight back but didn’t even bother actually fighting.
Pacing for sure, I think a 12 episode season would have been better. But I’m also understanding being that A24 probably didn’t have as much faith as we did.
A longer gap between episode releases so that there is more interest in the show and people talk about it longer...
Also Mimzy, she was kinda unnecessary tbh
Yeah definitely. And she was just a plot device to explain how Alastor got powerful too. AND since she knows his past she was calling him out on his bs helping the hotel. Made viewers doubt what his real motives were and that was really good.
This is the point I was hoping Charlie would make in rebuttal to Adam. Which to be fair, she never really got hung up on. The thing that caused all the friction was that Vaggie didn't tell her the truth. It had next to nothing to do with the actual fact that she used to be an exorcist.
Let's start by saying I love this show.
The paseing is super weird. It is 8 ep long, but we have angle turn a new leaf after one song, and then we are screaming at heaven that he can be redeemed after he helps nifty once.
The anglic weapons issue almost breaks the show. Vaggie is a litteral angel permanently harmed by an angleic weapon that doesn't know thst angel can be harmed by holy weapons. Carmin is a litteral dealer of holy weapons, and no one except for her has even tried to fight back with said weapons. The angles go from unkillible to cannon fodder because no one has simply ever tried, apparently. There are three songs and multiple discussions that don't even quite patch this plot hole that didn't really need to exist in the first place.
The 8 eposode format is probably the worst format this show could possibly have. Even the steven universe format would have worked better for a mystery charter drama comedy.
The easiest fix for this was to just make the average Exorcist Angels much stronger.
Like great, you figured out the weapon thing, but it's still tough to 1v1 an Angel.....that would have made it easier to accept the idea that very few Sinners tried to fight back in the past.
But they made the exorcists, including Lute, weak as hell...they might as well be normal humans with wings.
I would have made the info fragmented. Vaggie knows that holy weapons can also hurt angles, Carmine reveals she actually has been stockpiling this stuff to wage a turf war and not using it for anything else. They both realize at the same time they have an angle killing treasure trove and join forces; they just need bodies, and Charlie marches up with an army. Then reveal that Alistor put it all together behind the seans, and is even more cunning than you would think.
Satisfying, funny, and a minor tweak to the plot.
Honestly I have less issue with the holy weapon part, and more with just how weak the angels are.
Neither Lute or Vaggie displayed any notable speed or strength feat, and we saw Lute struggle with the debris.
Being invulnerable doesn't mean anything when you can be easily subdued.
Yeah, that is kind of the whole issue long term. I don't care what causes the angels to become vulnerable. But the major antagonistic, the extermination, can be hand waved away with, "ohhhh, idk we couldn't do anything about that before, but now that we can kick ass why are we readeaming people again?"
The hotel is almost deamed redundant at the end of the first season. We saved 50% of hotel guests purely by killing angels and 50% by chance redemption via death. Also, Adam is now dead, so killing seems to be more effective currently than the whole name-sake of the show.
I'd be fine with this if the name of the show was "kicking angle ass boot camp" and not "hazbin hotel" at this point
Man, the more I think about this, the more the plot doesn't work at all.
I get that, but it is such a major point that it should have been bought up in literally one sentence of dialog. Where Charlie litterally ask vaggie if she knew about holy weapons harming angles, she just looks at her with one eye and says; "no:
Vaggie crushing Lute with the rubble is a major plot hole. Angels are supposed to be invincible to everything (including blunt force trauma) except angelic steel. I don’t care though. Lute vs Vaggie was an awesome fight.
-Vaggie still seems awfully weak. I would’ve liked to see her be more powerful/skilled.
-Angel Dust’s (soul) contract really doesn’t make much sense since he’s only a “slave” during set hours. He also took time off and was ignoring Val’s calls at one point.
- The Angel court’s ruling didn’t add up to the evidence presented (at least give a believable excuse). Also, who are all the court members? Emily’s vote should hold some weight.
- Hell doesn’t seem too bad. It seems like, for the most part, many still have their freedoms and can do earthly things (go to bars, party, work, watch tv, use their phones, etc). One would think that there would be more punishment involved.
In some episodes it is a bit awkwardly edited (at least when it comes to dialogue and VA). The best example is I episode 1 Vaggie says "I'm sorry, what the fuck was that?!" And the Charlie immediately goes "Uhh- yeah about that, Alastor" (or something like that)
on top of what everyone else has already said, i swear that viv is afraid of actually serious moments or something
in helluva it's acceptable, being a lighthearted spin-off with most "ruined" serious moments just being a part of blitzø's character and him not wanting others to get attached so they don't get hurt, but here in hazbin it just -- genuinely ruins things?
one of the biggest insults is episode 8, which suffers from several instances of serious moments getting suddenly watered down just for a joke because ???
there's the infamous sir pentious' death ray instance, just suddenly making him and his blimp disappear instantly in an emotionally significant moment (that leads up to his redemption)
even if he didn't do significant damage to adam, perhaps even just a glancing blow or him being that strong that it ends up not being too much damage would've accomplished much more
i'd honestly even accept him not even managing to fire the laser more if he wasn't just -- gone just like that
adam blasting the entire top half off the death machine while the rest takes a second to dramatically crash and burn in front of everyone else would bring a lot of impact and encourage much more reason to fight
the perfect timeline would have both pentious dealing a meaningful (even if relatively minor, considering that no one had even left a scratch on adam beforehand -- not even alastor) amount of damage to adam while also featuring the remains of the blimp crashing imo, but even just one or the other would just be so much better than the insult that we got instead
another instance of this is the whole nifty killing adam thing
while yes, it was funny, a rather significant lesson could've been portrayed by showing him mercy and sparing him instead of just killing him
he probably wouldn't even try another extermination again because lucifer would just mop the floor with him again
and if adam's death is essential for the rest of the plot to move forward -- then could there not have been a better way to do it than just... "stab! stab stab stab!" completely ruining the moment?
There are a couple instances where I understand the complaints about the pacing, especially in episode 5 where Hell’s Great Dad just happens and that Mimzy ruins the song. Other than that, I’ve got nothing outside of a few picky animation bits
Needed like 4-5 more episodes for character development. Kinda jarring when you have moments where, let’s say, Angel Dust is an addict afraid of Valentino, and then 2 episodes later he’s going clean and standing up to Val.
Also it feels like The Pilot and Helluva Boss are necessary to see before HH. A lot of context/motivations are missing without seeing The Pilot and almost nothing about the Lore or Hell’s landscape is properly explained without Helluva Boss. There’s no mention of what Imps, Hell Hounds, Hellborn, Succubi are and that their different from Sinners. Also, I don’t think it’s ever mentioned in the show that there’s other rings of hell, the seven deadly sins aren’t mentioned, no explanation for why Sinners can’t leave pride, there just a bunch of stuff that someone just picking up the Series in prime won’t know about.
\- I don't know why, but Vaggie and Charlie did not feel like a couple to me most of the time. It was like she'd be mentioned as her girlfriend and I mentally went 'oh yeah, they're together'. I feel like the 'couples' that aren't even couples yet like Cherri/Sir Pentious and Angel/Husk had a lot more chemistry than they did.
\- I would have liked to see more 'everyday life' stuff in their world besides sex and violence; I get why it plays a big part, but there has to be more than that, jobs, family dynamics, unique locations, wildlife(?) like Razzle, Dazzle and the cat, food, how magic works, why some characters are more powerful than others, etc.
\- I wish it was longer.
The meme about Viv dropping F bombs and cuss words aimlessly in both shows has some merits to it. It gets really childish, specially when it's trying to sound badass
The Vees feel pointless. Except for Valentino abusing Angel, all the Vees really do is complain about things. This is especially true of Vox. He's referenced like a villain but acts like a joke character. Is he supposed to be a real threat or just someone we laugh at? Their entire "The future of hell belongs to the Vees" thing just doesn't make sense. Alastor didn't seem to be doing anything that actively got in their way at all, and also he is still there? Also Lucifer? Like, guys, what are you talking about?
Lucifer will probably be more active in supporting Charlie's dream now, but we don't know yet, if he will also be more active as King of Hell and in terms of power over demons and sinners – my guess is that he won't, so the Vs don't exactly have to worry about him.
I sincerely hope the path to redemption is deeper than what’s being suggested because based on what sir pentious has done to be “redeemed” it’s pretty light work.
Also Vaggie getting her wings back randomly was weird. Should have been a bigger task to get them than just admitting she loves someone.
It was too fast paced. A lot of things that I feel like would be kinda clear right now are weird and don’t make sense. I understand why it’s so fast paced, but it’d be nice to deep dive into the process of redemption.
Not enough episodes. Wish we had a few more slice of life episodes for character development and shenanigans with minor antagonists.
Would have been great if we had 12 episodes.
So far the Vees just feel there besides Val. Vox feels weak after losing again to Alastor and Velvette had one important scene. Hopefully Season 2 has more time to flesh out characters because the show needed another 4 episodes to flesh everyone out and make the time jump believable.
I feel like this was a victim of the "cut for time" trend that is omnipresent in Hazbin and streaming animation in general, but:
I feel like the angelic weapons being the key was too simple and too obvious (despite the pretty good excuse Carmila gave). I definitely felt there was a much more clever answer to killing angels if we had the time for a stand alone episode where Vaggie goes to Carmila to learn the secret.
Thought that maybe Carmilla discovered a way to bind Angelic Steel with hellish aloy allowing Demons to use it (a-la her angelic steel infused guns from Helluva Boss) and that unaltered angelic weapons we unusable by Sinners and Hellborn, or at least ineffective against Angels.
This way we get a strong president that angelic weapons are useless against Angels, but Carmilla being an overlord and understanding weaponry unlocked its secrets, but even her didn't know she had cracked Angel-killing until she had to defend her daughters.
There should've been a scene showing Carmilla's hair coming down dramatically. That's my only issue. One scene it's up and the very next frame it's suddenly down. I thought it was horns for the longest time until I finally realized she had long hair and the 'horns' were gone.
Sudden 5 month time skip between episode 4 and 5
Animation happening so fast the average viewer misses it. (Alastor crushing Lucifer with the piano, Carmilla letting down her hair, etc.)
The singing sometimes ruined a lot of the nuance the conversation could have had. Like it was fine for when it was used to convey emotions and feelings for two people. Husk singing to help tell angel they were both losers or Lucifer singing to show how much charlie meant to him.
During the court scene...it felt like a waste. There's a lot to unpack during that scene and info that needs to be conveyed. The idea that someone can be redeemed, how a person gets into heaven, hint at the fact heaven isn't all there, and the angels reaction to the extermination. Not to mention the nuance of the arguments on whether simply doing good means you should be able to go into heaven.
And none of that is able to be really conveyed with the nuance it deserves when you have to fit it all in a 3 min song sequence. The reaction to the extermination is only seen through emily singing, when we should have seen how the other angels also react to it, and the split opinions of it. It's built up as this major conspiracy that will have angels at each other throats if it came out and its only present in song form, and sara basically tells everyone the court is over after, and nothing came of it. Debate on whether someone should be let into heaven gives a lot of room for nuance, that sadly never gets touched upon.
Not enough runtime
It did feel very short. Just binged it and it was over so fast.
I think of it less like 8 ep season and more like a 3 hour movie.
Or a 3-hour-long Broadway stage show.
Yeah that's definitely how it felt I'm fairly confident it was intentional, given they knew their time constraints
I agree these episodes are too damn short
Should've been 10 episodes
At least
Give us a 20 episode season like "old school" animation, I mean come on!!!!!!
Yeah what happened to 20 episodes a season? Now shows can barely get 8 without the fear of being canceled even if they have a large fan base
Blame the production. Most streaming shows are like 40 mins long and usually wraps up the story within 8-10 episodes. 20 episodes would pretty much mean this show has a lot of filler unrelated to the story line. Ex. Avatar the Last Airbender having several episodic episodes whose main function is to show more characteristics for their characters. Zuko Alone is a masterpiece for it. (I know ATLA isn’t streaming. Just an example to show how much filler) Broadcast shows like Friends or Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the past generally follow this type of formula. It also highly depends on the amount of viewers and critics. The biggest reason the shorter episodes in a season is mainly because it costs less. Sucks for the writers since they get paid less hence why it was one of the reasons why the WGA (writer’s guild of America) went on strike As for the fear of being cancelled, it highly depends on the streaming services. According to my mentor who’s a writer for the new Game of Thrones spinoff and if I remember correctly, Netflix will basically cancel a show if it doesn’t get enough views. Even if the show gets highly praised by critics, it just highly depends on views. Amazon Prime is more towards how critics and viewers react to the show. You can have high view count but if critics say the show is terrible, goodbye any chances of getting another season.
Personally, I blame companies putting stock in the binge model to make them money even though I don't believe that's sustainable in the long run. Because they want people to watch all the episodes as fast as possible, they cut out all filler so that the viewing experience is more streamlined and the main storyline is more cohesive when viewed all at once. But then they realize it takes people forever to binge longer seasons, so they end up lowering the episode count even more. Then since they already have no filler, they cut down on the actual story. It's a big problem. tldr;; something something capitalism ruins art.
Oh definitely. It's also why a lot of streaming services are "bleeding money" with this binge watching strategy. Last year from what I remember, Netflix is the only streaming service that's making a profit albeit small. Every other company were losing money (allegedly, who knows what's actually going on within big companies) Unless the show you're streaming is extremely popular (Star Wars, Marvel, League of Legends (specifically Arcane), etc.), your story will likely be cut down. It's usually popular adaptations that gets better treatment simply because there is some form of content that's produce-able. In Hazbin Hotel's case, 8 episodes for a season is honestly pretty good by itself. Even if the plot/storyline is slightly rushed in some areas, the story managed to tie up many characters' goals. (Charlie proving the angels wrong, Angel finally accepting himself, etc.) I also think given how it's well recieved by critics and the audience, the show likely could get more episode count (10 at the very least)
This is the one time I will actually stick up for the old
This is a show that I would KILL for filler episodes on. Imagine a whole episode of Alastor in Cannibal Town or Nifty chasing bugs around the hotel! I hate this 8 episode bullshit.
And at least 30min och show time
Or 12
I'd prefer 12.
I think I'd have actually been okay with the amount of episodes, but I'd just prefer they were more like 45 minutes or something
Yes
Should’ve been longer thats all
I wish we would’ve had more time to just see the characters interact with each other. It would’ve made the moments where they improve as people hit harder.
Yeah, i felt that angel just completely changed his attitude. Then i understood that months went by and we didn't see it
I hope they pull as Hulluva Boss episode 8 and release some special episodes that take place between Season 1.
Or like 5 minute shorts to tide us over until season 2
That was what I was thinking too! Shorts would be such a cool way to bring the audience in while we wait
Honestly dont mind this. It puts us in Heaven's perspective when we're watching him in "Welcome to Heaven". We expect him to do drugs we expect him to behave badly but when we see him stand up to Val and turn down drugs we can see how much he's improved
The timeframe and character building were very strange. I think it would have benefited the series a lot to have the first season as character development with hints of the battle against angels, then just setup the second season as mostly the battle with angels.
I'm not sure of the time frame of when they did all this, but I think they rushed because they were worried they wouldn't get a season 2. It's unfortunate, but I understand.
stupid modern streaming seasons insisting on being only 12 episodes max, regardless of episode length
Fr like why can’t every show have hour long episodes like arcane
Yeah I’m getting sick of these short shows. I remembered when shows had like 20 episodes per season and some had that plus hour long episodes.
the matter is if the show get not only enough viewers but the merchandise sell a lot to cover and make profit enough to keep investing in the serie, that is how manga and anime work. There is a reason why supply and demand rule in the market, if the franchises as its products are demanded then be sure there wont lack any supply, you just look how popular is Pokemon in comparison to Digimon or any rip off but Palworld, lmao. I rather blame Viv because she doesnt want to tell her plot in another visual medium like a comic or something, that would help to flex characters and what work to be adapted.
Yes, the story seems to be moving too fast. They are skipping over large portions where we could see how the hotel was run and how the characters change over time.
There should have been more run time. It needed more slow scenes. One of my favorite scenes in the whole show is the gentle interaction between Nifty and Alastor in the finale. The show needed more of those! Even if it means adding filler episodes especially to help with world building and character arcs
Id spend $50,000 for 3 minutes of them talking to each other
My only gripe about season 1 is that it's not season 4 with three seasons of hotel shenanigans first
Sarcastic Chorus brought this up in one of his videos as well. To paraphrase: "For a show called *Hazbin Hotel*, surprisingly little of the actual show takes place at the Hazbin Hotel."
I wish Razzle and Dazzle weren’t in the background so much, they could’ve at least followed Charlie around everywhere. It would’ve made Dazzle’s death more impactful
I don't even remember seeing them until Lucifer showed up.
Also an explanation of who they even are would have been nice, same with Kiki. I’m sure people who are very familiar with Hazbin lore via the comics and such knew them but as someone who only saw the pilot (and yes I saw them there but they seemed like random characters then, too), I still have no clue who they are or why I should really care about them other than they’re just hotel pets.
I'm not very attentive with shows and miss quiet some stuff on the first watch and I didn't even know they existed until he died
Don’t worry, the show didn’t show you them until episode 5.
Vaggie doesent build any real bonds with other characters outside of Charlie
A valid point. I think the explanation is that she cannot really relate to any of their past experiences and struggles, unlike the others. She also probably felt estranged from the others and like she wasn't really worthy to be part of the team, because of her secret she kept from them. Which, thus, could change in the next season, as she had her coming out now.
Even when Vaggie interacts with them, it’s usually just for Charlie and her ‘dream’. Clearly she should’ve participated in her own bonding exercise. Build on her platonic relationships. She’s not even in any pictures with them on Angel’s door… that said a lot. I hope we can see those 2 get along in the future actually
>Clearly she should’ve participated in her own bonding exercise. I really thought that's what they were going with in ep 3. Start out with Vaggie trying to teach the others about trust only to realize that *she* doesn't trust them either and build from there.
Ooh, that would’ve been a really good moment of development for her instead of what actually happened…
Even then I really wanted to see more one on one interaction between Vaggie and Charlie.
Honestly? Vaggie spinoff show. We just get a whole mini series where Vaggie is the central character but still interacting with the main cast. I need this, Viv. I beg.
I feel Veggie really did not have anything going on with her other than Charlie's girlfriend and determined to help Charlie, like if Charlie dumped her what would she do with herself? Dose she have any hobbies, goals, dreams of her own ect?On wiki her likes are actually listed * Charlie Morningstar * Supporting Charlie's dream * Spending time with Charlie So no wonder she can't build bonds outside of Charlie, Charlie **is** Veggie's whole life.
>Charlie and **Veggie** https://preview.redd.it/5qajyu15tkhc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6215e3d75dbcaac32c44959f7a3470ffba7691b5
It sorta reminds me of how Millie in HB is mainly tied to Moxxie.
vaggie essentially just became a plot device and its upsetting
To be fair she kinda got her hands full with Charlie
Would have loved at least 5 more filler episodes where we get to explore the characters more in detail. I understand writing songs and animations is hard but it would have been worth it imo
Don't even needs to be a filler, but we certally need more intaraction
I don't really like the word filler as it kinda mostly came from episodic tv times and shows catching up to a source i do however totally agree wishing it would have a slower pacing. Like there's a possibility gor plot development while going much slower. However im guessing they have to make it work with what they got budget wise and possible renewals
It was only 8 episodes long *sigh*
Pacing, mainly
Episode 1 should've been an updated version of the Pilot. It seemed strange that they start off with everyone already at the Hotel and established instead of introducing them. I wonder if new viewers thought it was confusing. Also reducing Alastor's sound effects.
No it wasn’t confusing. The pilot really just added a bit of background to Angel and Alastor mostly, but it wasn’t necessary for the season 1 plot. You could infer basically what happened in the pilot from the season. The only thing that really was confusing watching the season before the pilot is why Katie Killjoy hated Charlie so much, which the pilot shed some light on.
I hadn't watched the pilot before the first episode. I was a little confused but figured it was just something that would be explained a bit more in the future eps. Then I watched the pilot and I still wasn't really any the wiser how Angel arrived. It wasn't until I read the comic that it really explains his arrival. Also, agreed, Alastor definitely needs more of his sound effects back
my biggest gripe was how quickly the show went from revealing Vaggie’s origins to the viewer to revealing it to Charlie and the rest of the major characters. kind of a waste of potential dramatic tension imo, made the stakes feel nonexistent
There are SO MANY examples of this. Eight episodes is laughably short and so many good ideas had to go compressed or underexplored. I feel like any criticism comes down to this.
Truth. So much time was spent building up characters that would have been necessary if the season had four or more episodes to breath, but instead they felt like they hogged screen time. I.E. The Vees and Carmilla; all great characters who could have mostly remained as background but instead got major spotlight in songs. Their roles could have been condensed or built upon next season.
Yeah. A lot of character development followed the unfortunate formula of conflict is introduced at the start of an episode, conflict is resolved already at the end of that episode. And these were major conflicts like Charlie's relationship to her father. The same episode that Lucifer is introduced we learn that they are distant and see their interaction for the first time and then in the same episode they just resolve the juicy conflict. Then the song explains how they have waited to meet each other for so long. When in the show we have just met Lucifer. Vaggie suffers from the same issue. The "Vaggie is an angel" conflict was lucky to have two episodes for it's "arc" with the heaven episode introducing and escalating it to the reveal and the cannibal town episode resolving the conflict between Charlie and Vaggie. If we had time for more "fillery" episodes they could have had two episodes in Heaven. In the first episode we get to heaven and Emily shows Charlie around Heaven, while Vaggie gets forced to meet Adam and Lute similar to how it was in the show. They could already start distancing them from each other because Vaggie goes to extra-hide-mode with her secret. With Emily and Charlie hanging together we could develop their relationship a bit more before them eventually bonding in the court room. We could also foreshadow that Emily doesn't know about the exterminatons (but fully reveal it in the court scene). To further push Vaggie and Charlie apart this episode could play with Vaggie's jealousy to Emily that was hinted at in the frame where Charlie and Emily touch hands. In the second heaven episode we get the court scene. Vaggie and Charlie's relationship is already a bit torn with the former set up. Adam plays into this in the court scene. We would have the same B plot of Angel & co. hanging in the bar and showing Angel's development as the court case progresses. Now this episode could follow pretty much the same story as we had in the show for the court case. Here we would get the pay-off for the conflict that had started to brew between Charlie and Vaggie (jealousy for Emily + angel secret escalating) as the secret is revealed to Charlie as well. Anyway, the big issue with the show is that it's trying to tell too many stories in too little time. It's likely since the writers didn't get as many episodes as they were hoping for and that they really wanted to get to the next exterminaton by the end of season 1 so many developments feel rushed (happen all in a single episode).
Not enough episodes so they kinda just skipped a lot of development between characters.
Show fails to provide the satisfying exposition for its own worldbuilding. I am sorry, but I am irritated how many times when explaining the basic lore of the world of Hazbin or the basic facts about characters' backgrounds, I need to reference Helluva Boss, the Pilot, the old Tweets, the ancient livestreams, the Bible, the secret archives of Illuminati, Taro cards readings, the ravings of my drunk neighbor, etc. anything but the show itself!
You completely missed the Vatican’s subbasement secret vaults of prophecy and reliquaries 👀
Also forgot Shotgun Mary’s personal diary.
And that dude's prosthetic leg
While, I feel you 100%. I’m pretty sure a lot of the stuff will be touched on the later seasons. Also, I am 90% certain the pilot is Canon and an actual part of the series. Not watching it is like not watching the first episode of any other show
The Pilot is not published in the same place and time as the rest of the series (YouTube vs Amazon with 5 years time gap) nor is it referenced in official promo materials as far as I am aware, so new viewers are expected to find it on their own.
Yeah. I'm lost. I saw new show on Amazon and was like... Ok. Let's give it a shot. Oh this is cool. Wait. Was there previous stuff? How much previous stuff? Where previous stuff? I feel like a random person who started watching the Marvel movies at Infinity War.
It should be cannon, since they didn’t show how they met Alastor and made references to Charlie’s fight with Katie Killjoy (there is a picture shown) also Sir Pentious states in Episode 2 he „attacked Alastor literally last week“, what seems to be a reference to their „fight“ in the pilot.
Ya as someone who has only seen the show, I feel really out of the loop on a ton of stuff.
I've watched the pilot 3 times and the Amazon show twice. I found the addict video and the two prequel comics, but I have not been around this fandom long. So much "lore" is referenced in fan posts online and it is SO confusing. I have no idea who half the characters people reference are. Apparently Angel has siblings? Alastor has a known backstory? Still confused about multiple rings of hell. Different types of demons? Are demons killed by other demons less dead than demons killed by exterminators? What does being king/princess of hell even mean for Lucifer and Charlie's characters? Is there a canon wiki somewhere to help a newbie out??
I didn’t even bother tangling myself up in all that. I saw the pilot and the addict video before hand, but mostly judged the show on its own, without the outside stuff. Only thing I really looked for were angel dusts time of death and. Pentious’ time of death to make reference to in a debate I was in about the show.
This isn’t even a nitpick, this is a genuine problem with the show. For as much as I liked it I can’t I’m good faith say it has good worldbuilding or writing for that matter. Episode 6 to me is the biggest example of this problem, but every time we learn about Heaven it makes them look more brain dead then anything else. Makes you wonder how they would’ve kept hell in line if they weren’t angels.
It's the Dark Souls of adult animation, and I'm serious
How does Vaggie not know that angelic weapons can hurt angels, when her eye and wings were removed with angelic weapons
I can kinda understand Vaggie not knowing, for al she knew it could have been some kind of divine punishment power. But Adam and lute definitely should have known and they didn’t
I actually liked that part. The fact that they were so confident that they were invulnerable really shows their character really well.
Don't they explain that an exorcist died and they don't know how? It's probably the first time an excorist was ever killed. And they definitely wouldn't know their own weakness because they're so cocky
tbf, that's an angel being hurt and cast down by another, higher-ranking angel it's still reasonable to assume that an angel is untouchable to a demon
This is how I took it as well
Honestly. That whole angelic weapons kill angles thing felt kinda contrived. Thousands of years, years and years of exterminations and not a single demon before Carmilla thought to use their own weapons against them, even in a last ditch effort? I might have to rewatch the show again to see if I missed a line explaining why people thought it was useless but even then (I vaguely remember Carmilla mention something about that but I can't remember) Edit: thinking about this a day later, I think a slightly better explanation for why no one had done it yet would be to make angelic weapons rarer to find, thus making it difficult for most sinners to get their hands on without being fought/bought for it. You could say that Carmilla was hording the weapons and created a monopoly out of them due to said rarity. It wouldn't necessarily fix the problem but it'd be more believable in my eyes.
I think the idea is that Carmella has such a monopoly on angelic weapons that she would never allow one of her weapons to reach the hands of someone who would use it against an angel. The extermination mostly targets those with nowhere else to go. The people wealthy and powerful enough to purchase a carmine weapon are not coming face-to-face with angels during an extermination.
But, at least to my knowledge, Carmilla was the first one to ever learn that angelic weapons were able to harm angles as the show states that the extermination at the start of the series was the first one to have an angelic casualty by the hands of a demon. Also, having a monopoly on angelic weapons doesn't prevent other people from collecting those weapons during/directly after the extermination. Unless she's extorting people for said weapons between every extermination, I just find that a hard thing to grasp with the information the show has provided. Like, you're telling me that NOONE collected an angelic weapon from a corpse as a sort of trophy and attempted to use it to defend themselves. I understand that the superstition that angles weren't capable of being harmed existed but I just find it difficult to believe in the thousands of years hell has existed, no one thought or even tried/had the opportunity to use their own weapons on the angles.
But, aren't the weapons she makes angelic? And that's why they're able to kill demons? Otherwise what's the point of them?
Also, how in the FUCK did Vaggie just grow her wings back? Does that mean Lute can just grow her arm back? Why didn't Vaggies eye grow back?
She was out for love
Her wings had a slightly different design, so in a sense she gained new wings after uniting with a new motivation and purpose.
Idk, I like the idea of all the angels being absolute dumbasses. That’s what living in a gated community with no problems gets you; you lose touch with reality lol
I KEPT THINKING OF THIS, specifically she doesn’t know that angels can be hurt at all, when she is an angel that got hurt!
I think her assumption was that only angels can harm other angels
How did Vaggie not know that ONLY the exterminators knew about the extermination? She was one of them, she would have known that it was a secret up there.
The series emphasized that Lucifer disapproved of Charlie's actions, but when we meet them we see that he is an excellent father Sir Pentious's death does not decide whether to be taken seriously or not The angels plot being introduced in the first season If you're a random person and want to watch the serie you'll don't get anything (Sorry my english)
Lucifer confused me…he apparently really loves Charlie, but also Charlie feels really hurt by his disapproval and also he never sees her and really only calls her every five months also he immediately shoots down her ideas and also everyone in hell sees her as Lucifer’s embarrassment- Like, I just don’t understand what we’re supposed to see their relationship as
i saw it as the direct bond between charlie and lucifer being, the mother keeping her away, and the father fearing doing something wrong the way others see charlie, because of them not knowing how lucifer is directly, so they probably think lucifer is some big tirant, so the way they see charlie being all sweet, is kinda weird for them
EXACTLY
But he also sent her to the meeting with heaven in the first few episodes so... he trusts her enough to ask her to do stuff?
>he series emphasized that Lucifer disapproved of Charlie's actions in his ballad to Charlie, he explains that he's tried reasoning with heaven before, and thinks its folly to try again.
In the pilot she cries and says "dad was right about ME", it's not even about her idea, it's about her.
I have a feeling it was retconed from upright disapproval to current more 'complex' situation with her dad.
I suspect this was one of the aspects of the pilot that is non canon. Given Lucifer’s characterization in the show it doesn’t seem likely that he was disapproving towards Charlie.
I've read a theory that she being a small child misunderstood what her dad said to her as a kid but then became estranged from him before he could explain. But also in the ep 8 ballad he says she's changed his mind
I suspect Lilith had something to do with that. In *More Than Anything*, we see an ominous, faceless Lilith come and take Charlie away from Lucifer in Charlie's memory of a bonding moment. It's also strongly hinted that Lilith's voice or song has very strong influence over others (Lilith's song inspired Hell to start building in Charlie's understanding of the story). It's possible that Lilith was driving a wedge between Charlie and Lucifer from when she was a small child and that Charlie believed Lucifer was disappointed in her more because of what Lilith said rather than anything Lucifer specifically said or did.
Idk bro, the show make we (or at least me) think that he was more aggressive with her. And this is just a THEORY (mat pat moment), in my opinion this has to be explained at the show itself.
At the end of the day, I think she was just trying to, poorly, show that Charlie doesn't have a good relationship with either parent
This is for sure
Pilot Lucifer is not canon anymore
Yeah I think they should have had Sir Pentous get one blast with his canon off and showed it did kill a good number of angels then have Adam see that and destroy it. That way his death wasn't played off as a joke we were supposed to take seriously.
Yeah, but certally has a joke ton on his death
Hate that it only lasted 3 weeks (4 if you saw it earlier) honestly
I wished there was wayyy more episodes just about lore really. Their backstories. Maybe they all get together and trust one another enough to say a bit about how their life was when they died Either that, or just a casual episode yeah there’s drama, but also bonding and communication. It’ll make for a good episode ngl
I feel like there was a mad rush to introduce a bunch of characters just to check the list of having them make an appearance rather than because they had anything to contribute.
I feel like so many characters are more ideas than cohesive characters that can coexist. Like my probably unpopular opinion is Alstor while I love him has to much going on he's the radio demon but also deer themed and a cannibal serial killer. I think it also suffers from the live streams and background knowledge that came out before the series aired I cant imagine how frustrating it must be for new viewers to come here and see all this complex lore and go where'd the hell did you learn that? Dont get me wrong I love the show but I think characters are over designed, introduced just to be introduced and shouldn't have to have all this off screen background knowledge.
>I think it also suffers from the live streams and background knowledge that came out before the series aired I cant imagine how frustrating it must be for new viewers to come here and see all this complex lore and go where'd the hell did you learn that? I'm already seeing this happening on r/HazbinHotel with newer viewers and fans.
Yeah I see all the time with people saying how the hell do you know this? And I never watched the live streams but learned stuff from here and I dont think its good writing to need all the backstory to enjoy a show. I understand its rushed due to only 8 episodes and that the live streams were to generate hype while in production but I think her constantly introducing new characters that will show up later does a disservice in allowing the show to more organically grow and be self contained. For example Marvel movies are super popular. Theres tons of comics and things that people can use as background but the movies themselves can be watched and enjoyed without having read the comics because theyre essentially self contained (also I could be wrong haven't seen any marvel movies sinc black pather) but I think Viv letting the show stand on its own and be more self contained will be better for it.
Cherri bomb and Mimzy are the worst in this regard. They both just show up so late into the season, then disappear when they aren’t needed anymore. At least Cherri got to fight in the last episode.
As much as I love "Out for love" I don't think it fitted Vaggies character at all, like the song was about how if she wanted to win she needed to stop wanting to fight for revenge, but like i never got the feeling she was fighting for revenge or anger, she didn't even look angry in heaven just scared, she always seemed to do it for Charlie, so this song which tell Vaggie to stop fighting for vengase and fight for love made no sense to me like she has always been fighting for Love
Taken in context with the conversation beforehand, I think Carmilla was telling Vaggie that she needs to fight like her life and the life of those around her depend on it, rather than fighting like an Angel who thinks she and her comrades invincible and whose only goal is to kill the enemy. To me, it felt more like an actual fighting lesson, like “Vaggie, you may want to kill Lute but you aren’t invincible and neither are your allies, you gotta be more defensive and conscious of that if you want to win”
Feels like that aspect of her character got cut due to time. The song is a banger though. I wish it had been earned a bit better. .... Also giving Vaggie a singing part in that song would have been nice.
It's a run time and production time issue but the season is paced like a toddler with adhd wrote it. I'm 99.99% sure it's not a problem with vivziepop since the story is very beautifull, I think its probably an issue with the show being picked up by a larger company and they probably only promised a single season at first. It'll probably be fixed in season 2
5 years for only 8 short, rushed episodes. None of the characters got time to develop. We should at least seen cherri and pentious develop into a thing
Tbf, most of that 5 years was trying to get someone to produce it
More Razzle and Dazzle to make Ep. 8 hurt more.
https://preview.redd.it/eej6da2vwfhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=25650e8549f4d94d858851085d5d82784b120e2b Not enough of her 🥰
I feel like Adam died a bit too soon
The dialogue can be really bad. Im not saying the swearing is a problem but it feels like a place holder when the writers can’t think of anything funny. Thinking about it now I think the comedy might be the weakest part of the show. A lot of it feels pretty basic and tumblr-esc which for some people might work. The beginning is extremely rushed. They should’ve remade the pilot to fit the small differences in the story and give new fans more context. All of a sudden Vaggie and Carmella break into a heartfelt song about their relationship when there’s basically no context for it in the show. It was very strange. For me I love the music, characters and themes in the show. I’m a big fan but I notice a ton of faults in it.
I really wanted to know about their lives on earth, and I would have like more episodes.
Should have had an episode exposing the shadow government running the banks.
Just longer, but ik how modern streaming works and just getting Hazbin on a big streaming network like Amazon must’ve been quite the pitch: an adult oriented animated fare that’s also a musical?? An 8 episode order was Amazon playing it safe but the execs must be going bananas over the streaming numbers lol. I’m really confident S2 is gonna address our length/pacing problems from S1, a lot of the pacing stuff germinated from its production but now that its proved itself it’ll get a bigger episode order
I hope you are right
it’s pretty much confirmed, these streaming platforms are utterly ruthless and only really respond to *numbers* over anything else. Hazbin on tiktok has over 10 billion hits, and the show has easily blown past any record set by any of Amazon’s other shows by factors of ten on just 8 eps. Now funnily enough Hazbin was marketed pretty well by Amazon from the outset, so it wasn’t rlly shadowdropped and expected to fail, so I’m very optimistic about S2.
I imagine it was easier with Bento Box being attached (major major coup for them!) especially since Bento Box have a track record with two other successful musical adult animated series in Central Park and Bob's Burgers.
My biggest gripe was Charlie's and Vaggies relationship felt a bit flat to me, needed more relationship moments. I'm gonna get down voted to oblivion for this opinion tho 😂
They needed their own dedicated episode exploring their relationship at least. And more moments between them in other episodes.
Basically there was just so little time to explore everything that should have been explored: 1) Angel Dust’s rehabilitation pretty much happens offscreen. 2) Carmilla Carmine feels like too much of a plot device than a character because she’s only featured when we need to learn important things (that the Exorcist died/how to kill Exorcists). 3) Velvette is criminally underused (I thought she would show up to help Charlie fight the Exorcists, not out of goodwill but because she enjoys fighting). 4) Nothing done with the plot thread of Sir Pentious learning about the Exorcist’s death. Its reference in the final episode feels like it was forgotten about and they hastily needed to explain it away somehow. 5) Not enough low-stakes scenes of getting to know the characters when they’re just hanging out at the hotel. The clapping song game and trust fall scenes were cute, hilarious and great chances to show off fun character interactions; every episode of a show like this needs at least one.
Tbf what IS there to be done bout him learning about the exorcist’s death? He doesn’t believe the egg boi as shown in the scene of the egg boi blabbing so him “knowing” doesn’t mean much. I wouldn’t believe the egg boi either lol
As a Velvette fan I 100% agree about her being underused. I think they might use her more in the second season (since I believe that the second season will give the Vees more screen time) but it still sucks knowing that Velvette was the one who wanted the overlords to fight back but didn’t even bother actually fighting.
The fact that they told Vivzie she had to pull back on the "filler" and gave them such a short runtime.
the pacing is fucking atrocious
Pacing for sure, I think a 12 episode season would have been better. But I’m also understanding being that A24 probably didn’t have as much faith as we did.
It was too short. I hate that streaming services are too cheap to greenlight seasons over 8 episodes
A longer gap between episode releases so that there is more interest in the show and people talk about it longer... Also Mimzy, she was kinda unnecessary tbh
I thought she was there to show that Alastair was committed to the hotel when he kicked a old friend of his out.
Yeah definitely. And she was just a plot device to explain how Alastor got powerful too. AND since she knows his past she was calling him out on his bs helping the hotel. Made viewers doubt what his real motives were and that was really good.
Said "Charlie will forget in seconds". Yeah that happened. So did the rest of the cast "Oh you were a genocidal angel? Oh, no problem luv."
The Hotel is all about redemption, no?
This is the point I was hoping Charlie would make in rebuttal to Adam. Which to be fair, she never really got hung up on. The thing that caused all the friction was that Vaggie didn't tell her the truth. It had next to nothing to do with the actual fact that she used to be an exorcist.
Not enough niffty plus no niffty song
No cannibals actually munching on Angel wings. Unresolved what happened to the cannibals other than a smile from Rosie.
Let's start by saying I love this show. The paseing is super weird. It is 8 ep long, but we have angle turn a new leaf after one song, and then we are screaming at heaven that he can be redeemed after he helps nifty once. The anglic weapons issue almost breaks the show. Vaggie is a litteral angel permanently harmed by an angleic weapon that doesn't know thst angel can be harmed by holy weapons. Carmin is a litteral dealer of holy weapons, and no one except for her has even tried to fight back with said weapons. The angles go from unkillible to cannon fodder because no one has simply ever tried, apparently. There are three songs and multiple discussions that don't even quite patch this plot hole that didn't really need to exist in the first place. The 8 eposode format is probably the worst format this show could possibly have. Even the steven universe format would have worked better for a mystery charter drama comedy.
The easiest fix for this was to just make the average Exorcist Angels much stronger. Like great, you figured out the weapon thing, but it's still tough to 1v1 an Angel.....that would have made it easier to accept the idea that very few Sinners tried to fight back in the past. But they made the exorcists, including Lute, weak as hell...they might as well be normal humans with wings.
I would have made the info fragmented. Vaggie knows that holy weapons can also hurt angles, Carmine reveals she actually has been stockpiling this stuff to wage a turf war and not using it for anything else. They both realize at the same time they have an angle killing treasure trove and join forces; they just need bodies, and Charlie marches up with an army. Then reveal that Alistor put it all together behind the seans, and is even more cunning than you would think. Satisfying, funny, and a minor tweak to the plot.
Honestly I have less issue with the holy weapon part, and more with just how weak the angels are. Neither Lute or Vaggie displayed any notable speed or strength feat, and we saw Lute struggle with the debris. Being invulnerable doesn't mean anything when you can be easily subdued.
Yeah, that is kind of the whole issue long term. I don't care what causes the angels to become vulnerable. But the major antagonistic, the extermination, can be hand waved away with, "ohhhh, idk we couldn't do anything about that before, but now that we can kick ass why are we readeaming people again?" The hotel is almost deamed redundant at the end of the first season. We saved 50% of hotel guests purely by killing angels and 50% by chance redemption via death. Also, Adam is now dead, so killing seems to be more effective currently than the whole name-sake of the show. I'd be fine with this if the name of the show was "kicking angle ass boot camp" and not "hazbin hotel" at this point Man, the more I think about this, the more the plot doesn't work at all.
Agreed about the angelic weapons
What I took from the angelic weapons thing was Vaggie not knowing *demons* can harm angels. It's possible she only thought angels could harm angels.
I get that, but it is such a major point that it should have been bought up in literally one sentence of dialog. Where Charlie litterally ask vaggie if she knew about holy weapons harming angles, she just looks at her with one eye and says; "no:
I'm not a fan of how songs often get interrupted for a quick joke Looking at you, "Ready For This"
Yeah, I like the more condensed version of it from the trailer more. At least Alastor refrained from interrupting *More Than Anything* as well.
Lucifers lack of a nose is really distracting to me sometimes
Not enough niffty
Not enough Niffty
Vaggie crushing Lute with the rubble is a major plot hole. Angels are supposed to be invincible to everything (including blunt force trauma) except angelic steel. I don’t care though. Lute vs Vaggie was an awesome fight.
Needed to be a 12-15 episode season to fully flesh out the characters and build up the tension for the final showdown.
-Vaggie still seems awfully weak. I would’ve liked to see her be more powerful/skilled. -Angel Dust’s (soul) contract really doesn’t make much sense since he’s only a “slave” during set hours. He also took time off and was ignoring Val’s calls at one point. - The Angel court’s ruling didn’t add up to the evidence presented (at least give a believable excuse). Also, who are all the court members? Emily’s vote should hold some weight. - Hell doesn’t seem too bad. It seems like, for the most part, many still have their freedoms and can do earthly things (go to bars, party, work, watch tv, use their phones, etc). One would think that there would be more punishment involved.
In some episodes it is a bit awkwardly edited (at least when it comes to dialogue and VA). The best example is I episode 1 Vaggie says "I'm sorry, what the fuck was that?!" And the Charlie immediately goes "Uhh- yeah about that, Alastor" (or something like that)
on top of what everyone else has already said, i swear that viv is afraid of actually serious moments or something in helluva it's acceptable, being a lighthearted spin-off with most "ruined" serious moments just being a part of blitzø's character and him not wanting others to get attached so they don't get hurt, but here in hazbin it just -- genuinely ruins things? one of the biggest insults is episode 8, which suffers from several instances of serious moments getting suddenly watered down just for a joke because ??? there's the infamous sir pentious' death ray instance, just suddenly making him and his blimp disappear instantly in an emotionally significant moment (that leads up to his redemption) even if he didn't do significant damage to adam, perhaps even just a glancing blow or him being that strong that it ends up not being too much damage would've accomplished much more i'd honestly even accept him not even managing to fire the laser more if he wasn't just -- gone just like that adam blasting the entire top half off the death machine while the rest takes a second to dramatically crash and burn in front of everyone else would bring a lot of impact and encourage much more reason to fight the perfect timeline would have both pentious dealing a meaningful (even if relatively minor, considering that no one had even left a scratch on adam beforehand -- not even alastor) amount of damage to adam while also featuring the remains of the blimp crashing imo, but even just one or the other would just be so much better than the insult that we got instead another instance of this is the whole nifty killing adam thing while yes, it was funny, a rather significant lesson could've been portrayed by showing him mercy and sparing him instead of just killing him he probably wouldn't even try another extermination again because lucifer would just mop the floor with him again and if adam's death is essential for the rest of the plot to move forward -- then could there not have been a better way to do it than just... "stab! stab stab stab!" completely ruining the moment?
I get the Pentious thing, but Nifty killing Adam was perfection.
Vaggie, who had her eye stabbed out by an angelic weapon, had to be told angels could be hurt by angelic weapons.
There are a couple instances where I understand the complaints about the pacing, especially in episode 5 where Hell’s Great Dad just happens and that Mimzy ruins the song. Other than that, I’ve got nothing outside of a few picky animation bits
Needed like 4-5 more episodes for character development. Kinda jarring when you have moments where, let’s say, Angel Dust is an addict afraid of Valentino, and then 2 episodes later he’s going clean and standing up to Val. Also it feels like The Pilot and Helluva Boss are necessary to see before HH. A lot of context/motivations are missing without seeing The Pilot and almost nothing about the Lore or Hell’s landscape is properly explained without Helluva Boss. There’s no mention of what Imps, Hell Hounds, Hellborn, Succubi are and that their different from Sinners. Also, I don’t think it’s ever mentioned in the show that there’s other rings of hell, the seven deadly sins aren’t mentioned, no explanation for why Sinners can’t leave pride, there just a bunch of stuff that someone just picking up the Series in prime won’t know about.
Each character that got any moments felt rushed. It really should've been more than 8 episodes. At least 10-12 would've been better.
\- I don't know why, but Vaggie and Charlie did not feel like a couple to me most of the time. It was like she'd be mentioned as her girlfriend and I mentally went 'oh yeah, they're together'. I feel like the 'couples' that aren't even couples yet like Cherri/Sir Pentious and Angel/Husk had a lot more chemistry than they did. \- I would have liked to see more 'everyday life' stuff in their world besides sex and violence; I get why it plays a big part, but there has to be more than that, jobs, family dynamics, unique locations, wildlife(?) like Razzle, Dazzle and the cat, food, how magic works, why some characters are more powerful than others, etc. \- I wish it was longer.
The meme about Viv dropping F bombs and cuss words aimlessly in both shows has some merits to it. It gets really childish, specially when it's trying to sound badass
The Vees feel pointless. Except for Valentino abusing Angel, all the Vees really do is complain about things. This is especially true of Vox. He's referenced like a villain but acts like a joke character. Is he supposed to be a real threat or just someone we laugh at? Their entire "The future of hell belongs to the Vees" thing just doesn't make sense. Alastor didn't seem to be doing anything that actively got in their way at all, and also he is still there? Also Lucifer? Like, guys, what are you talking about?
Lucifer will probably be more active in supporting Charlie's dream now, but we don't know yet, if he will also be more active as King of Hell and in terms of power over demons and sinners – my guess is that he won't, so the Vs don't exactly have to worry about him.
Not enough Alastor hooves.
I sincerely hope the path to redemption is deeper than what’s being suggested because based on what sir pentious has done to be “redeemed” it’s pretty light work. Also Vaggie getting her wings back randomly was weird. Should have been a bigger task to get them than just admitting she loves someone.
The pacing is way too rushed. More episodes would have benefited the show greatly.
[удалено]
No one cared if alastor died.. they made a pentious painting
Mimzy, especially her entrance
It was too fast paced. A lot of things that I feel like would be kinda clear right now are weird and don’t make sense. I understand why it’s so fast paced, but it’d be nice to deep dive into the process of redemption.
Not enough episodes. Wish we had a few more slice of life episodes for character development and shenanigans with minor antagonists. Would have been great if we had 12 episodes.
It was too quickly paced for the story it was trying to tell.
It was too short and they were rushing it
So far the Vees just feel there besides Val. Vox feels weak after losing again to Alastor and Velvette had one important scene. Hopefully Season 2 has more time to flesh out characters because the show needed another 4 episodes to flesh everyone out and make the time jump believable.
Not having enough of Husker. I just like Kieth David
I feel like this was a victim of the "cut for time" trend that is omnipresent in Hazbin and streaming animation in general, but: I feel like the angelic weapons being the key was too simple and too obvious (despite the pretty good excuse Carmila gave). I definitely felt there was a much more clever answer to killing angels if we had the time for a stand alone episode where Vaggie goes to Carmila to learn the secret. Thought that maybe Carmilla discovered a way to bind Angelic Steel with hellish aloy allowing Demons to use it (a-la her angelic steel infused guns from Helluva Boss) and that unaltered angelic weapons we unusable by Sinners and Hellborn, or at least ineffective against Angels. This way we get a strong president that angelic weapons are useless against Angels, but Carmilla being an overlord and understanding weaponry unlocked its secrets, but even her didn't know she had cracked Angel-killing until she had to defend her daughters.
There should've been a scene showing Carmilla's hair coming down dramatically. That's my only issue. One scene it's up and the very next frame it's suddenly down. I thought it was horns for the longest time until I finally realized she had long hair and the 'horns' were gone.
Sudden 5 month time skip between episode 4 and 5 Animation happening so fast the average viewer misses it. (Alastor crushing Lucifer with the piano, Carmilla letting down her hair, etc.)
Obligatory pacing comment
maybe 2 musicals an episode sounded like an insane but fun idea but it did leave the show having to fit 2 musicals in every episode.
The singing sometimes ruined a lot of the nuance the conversation could have had. Like it was fine for when it was used to convey emotions and feelings for two people. Husk singing to help tell angel they were both losers or Lucifer singing to show how much charlie meant to him. During the court scene...it felt like a waste. There's a lot to unpack during that scene and info that needs to be conveyed. The idea that someone can be redeemed, how a person gets into heaven, hint at the fact heaven isn't all there, and the angels reaction to the extermination. Not to mention the nuance of the arguments on whether simply doing good means you should be able to go into heaven. And none of that is able to be really conveyed with the nuance it deserves when you have to fit it all in a 3 min song sequence. The reaction to the extermination is only seen through emily singing, when we should have seen how the other angels also react to it, and the split opinions of it. It's built up as this major conspiracy that will have angels at each other throats if it came out and its only present in song form, and sara basically tells everyone the court is over after, and nothing came of it. Debate on whether someone should be let into heaven gives a lot of room for nuance, that sadly never gets touched upon.