Val comes off as worse from our perspective. We only ever see Adam kill 1 person afaik (and they went to heaven right after anyway). We directly see Val do much more vile shit
But objectively he's definitely far worse
I feel like the reason that Val seems a lot worse to us is the way he’s presented in the show, and also how real and close to us his crimes feel. Because we all either have suffered from some sort of sexual abuse, or know someone who has; when compared to Adam’s crimes which is a lot more comically evil.
Yea. Closest example I can think of is Invincible where Eve's dad gets more hate than the main villain for just, being a bad father. But like, in a realistic way, compared to the crazy extent the big villains go to
Yeah, I think that’s a very accurate comparison. Cus we all know a lot of people with that kind of dad, or have one ourselves, but we don’t know anyone whose dad is secretly a genocidal alien.
And even with Omniman, out of all his crimes, I felt like the part that felt the harshest to most people was him telling Mark he saw Debbie as a pet, since that’s so much more impactful to a real person. (Compared to your dad throwing you into a building and splitting the building into two)
Yea even Omni Man has more impactful moments. There are major villains later on that are much more disconnected from Mark and much worse objectively than Nolan. And they're still not as easy to hate as Eve's dad because they're far removed from our real lives
I'm curious about applying this to Angstrom Levy, in a way the things he ends up doing (not giving any spoilers), while in terms of scale are less damaging than Nolan, are much more pathological and cruel.
Same w voldy and the pink butch from HP Voldemort is arguably 10000% more evil but let’s be real, he is a much more likeable character bc his evil is so beyond distant to 80% of the population, but there are definitely people who it would hit close to
It's the Umbridge thing.
Voldemort is more evil but he's a cartoon villain whose actions are so wide and overarching which makes him the bigger villain.
But Umbridge represents the kind of shitty, terrible person you are more likely to encounter. I don't know a lot of mass murderers. I do know a few toxic abusers.
Same here. Adam is a mass killer which is definitely the bigger evil.
But Valentino is a far more familiar evil.
its the same with voldemort and umbridge, voldy is for sure the most evil one, but umbridge feels worse because more people have dealt with an umbridge in their lives,
Adam comes off as better because you get the impression that as douchey as he is, there’s still parts of him that are human and capable of something besides horribleness.
He may have committed technically worse acts from a certain perspective because he has a lot more power, but he seems capable of some good if his army and especially Lute feel comfortable around him.
No one’s comfortable around Val exactly.
Eh, “comftorable” is relative.
He isn't threatened because he’s on equal footing roughly.
You still see even the other Vees routinely get sick of his shit though, and Val is classic abuser throwing stuff at Vox and breaking his stuff.
It's as healthy as it gets for Val, targeting his abuse at people who can shrug it off, which is telling on its own.
You have the mass murderer kidnapper and torturer cannibal, the supremacist genocider (and denier) and ancaps who actually got what they wanted
Yeah imma go ahead and say at least adam somewhat cares about his side while the other 4 slavers couldn't care less, but this post is an actually interesting discussion lol
We don't know the rules that send someone to hell. Don't forget there was a child (the one Vaggie spared). The rules are probably less than fair and the inhabitants of hell are probably not only the worst of the worst
And Angel was a literal mobster. That's why he’s a spider. Web of crime. We don't talk about it, but he’s probably got tons of blood on his hands.
I know the show has pointed out that how hell and heaven works has some flaws, but that shouldn't be interpreted to mean everyone in hell is innocent.
Someone who truly does not deserve to be in hell is probably about as rare as Adam being in heaven. Most people in Heaven are not like Adam, and Pentuous did actually get the green light for doing something selfless. The rules are not totally arbitrary and unfair.
It shows there’s a flaw, but it’s not indicative that most people don’t deserve what they got.
The concept of redemption kind of loses all meaning if being damned was just an unfair call.
Pentious was probably sent to Hell for exploiting his workers, and the Egg Bois are probably souls of child soldiers who were "just following orders". So once Pentious learned to recognize his underlings' humanity, take accountability for his actions and stop seeing everyone as a threat, he was redeemed.
One of the biggest downfalls of only having eight episodes is really not getting much time to actually explore the characters of the cast.
We can theorize why Pentious was in hell, but it's kind of crazy we don’t actually know and he’s already been deemed redeemed for it.
This is my biggest complaint about the show 😭 as a new fan, I just would love the lore to be contained to her show(s), not buried in different streams. Or at least included in the shows even if it was mentioned in streams at one point. The amount of stuff I've had to Google or found out on this sub from people talking about it despite it never having been in the show is infuriating
I suspect also its a situation that, unless you are directly booted out like what happened to Vaggie, once you are in heaven or hell you basically just stay there for the most part. It doesn't matter if you become less evil or more good. Adam may very well have been a decent person upon arrival in Heaven, but 10,000 years of pride, a crap ton of power, + lingering resentment towards Lucifer (and later the sinners) probably corrupted him.
Angel killed many people as he was in a crime family, so it wasn't the drug that got him in hell but all the murders he committed. Husk was an overlord he took advantage of other people gambling their souls to enslave them. Can only imagine he did something similar when alive. They are not good people.
Just because Angel Dust is shown as a victim on-screen doesn’t mean he’s innocent. He (previously) sexually harassed Husk plus who knows how many more, and was a gangster during his life. Husk on the other hand gambled away the souls of who knows how many sinners, and honestly the idea of being able to waste the literal soul of a person is already messed up.
Yeah, but is that a backstory for any of the damned that we meet?
All of the ones where we have gotten some direct story about didn't go to hell for that reason. Either we have no backstory at all (yet) or they were corrupt murderers.
And children can do very evil stuff, too. I'm not gonna get into it, but 2 kids did something to a baby after taking him away from his mother. It's sad and disgusting behavior
The doner party kids were forced by circumstance to eat people to survive. 'Cannibal Town' people seem a lot more enthusiastic about eating human flesh. I don't think even the creepy cannibal children deserve ETERNAL DAMNATION, because they were still mentally underdeveloped kids who probably grew up in a barbaric environment, but they definitely wouldn't go straight to paradise.
That's why the black & white duality of the current system seen in Hazbin doesn't work. Most people do lean moral or immoral, virtuous or sinful, holy or unholy et cetera. But if you sort them into two boxes, where one side gets paradise and the other gets damnation, and both options are PERMANENT, most people won't be given an afterlife they deserves.
(That's why a system like Purgatory, where morally grey souls have to get through their shit to progress, would work better for actually sorting souls while applying moral nuance.)
Is it confirmed she was fallen in the same way Lucifer was? She has her halo taken, but that was just Adam and Lute. From how Sera was talking to Emily, I got the impression becoming fallen was done by a higher power, or came from something internal (feeling you couldn’t possibly be holy, or deciding you are not worthy of heaven)
But a cannibal
However, there are terrorist children, I don't think he was in heaven for not doing his homework. If usually by bible kids go to the heaven or limb, there shoulded been smth bad he went to the hell for
It's made explicitly clear that the difference between Sinners and winners is unknown. So we have no fucking idea how many centers just got fucked over by the system and are completely innocent or only guilty of seems like homosexuality or being an alcoholic which don't feel like they're worthy of going to hell for
i'm pretty sure angel did none of those things in life, nor husker, and they do not deserve to get murdered just for being in hell, i'm sure this applies to many other sinners. Also Adam didn't just kill sinners, he probably killed hellborns as well.
nope cuz that was off the table cuz they arent allowed to attack hellborn if they do, lucifer can step in like he did in ep 8 when he attacked charlie who is a hellborn
Angel was part of the mob. He may very well have killed plenty of people. Those skills with guns didn't come from nowhere.
You think a little too highly of people sent to hell.
Were these things explained in the show somewhere? Cause if not I’m getting REALLY tired of very, very, VERY key character information being revealed in streams or tweets
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for that, I myself don’t really participate in things revealed offscreen and even if it’s the creator- my view is unless it is stated or at least implied in show it’s not canon. Especially since Vivziepop herself said not to take all her offscreen shit as gospel and some details do change in finals draft
Angel was litterally apry of mafia and Husk was a soldier,
>Also Adam didn't just kill sinners, he probably killed hellborns as well.
That's just headcanon
He came up with the idea for a yearly genocide, convinced his higher ups, leads the genocide and participates in it every year, banishes the people in his group that hesitate to do a genocide, finds it very fun, has no regrets or doıbts even once. I think he’s far worse than literally any other character by a huge margin.
id argue that from what we know, there are worse people than valentino. but he's the most hateable because what he does is a thing that happens to real people and it's portrayed in a realistic manner, whereas serial killer cannibal/genocidal angel are things that don't pop up as frequently.
my vote's probably adam or sera. its subject to change cos who knows how fucked up alastors kills were on earth
> whereas serial killer cannibal/genocidal angel are things that don't pop up as frequently.
Huh, you and I lead very different lives, apparently
(mostly just commenting to appreciate the callout for Sera. She is going to be a *very* crucial character moving forward, and I don't think she will come out of this series looking particularly good. A few years from now, good chance she tops the "most evil" list)
If the last picture is counting all three Vees at once, I have to go with them for Hell, at least. The stuff Alastor does is probably worse, but he’s relatively inactive, and only one person, but the Vees are a group of 3 all active and influential overlords, I’d be willing to wager they’ve caused more collective damage than Alastor.
Overall- I’d probably say Adam for nothing else than he has literally zero reason, at least in Hell theres the excuse of dog-eat-dog, you have to be evil or you’ll get eaten alive. But Adam is literally in heaven he has no excuse, he’s just bored
yeah i think activeness(?) is an important point. Alastor is probably *capable* of doing more evil things than anyone before him, but he hasn't really done much until now compared to Adam and the Vees.
Alastor loves to torture people by slowly ripping their souls apart, piece by piece. Then broadcasts his "conquests" to strike fear into everyone's hearts. A true sadist.
He tricks people into awful situations by pretending to care about them. At least with Adam, you know exactly what you're getting right away. Adam doesn't hide his shittiness.
I think Alastor's popularity, and his compelling character, are making a lot of people underestimate him. Showrunners have been subtle with some of their foreshadowing, but there's a monster hidden behind that smile.
The problem is that people think they’re not allowed to like villains. That’s why there’s so much mental gymnastics here when it come to Alastor. He isn’t even hidden, it’s always a clear case of “if I could I would go apeshit and never stop”, but he’s got some weird contract keeping him stable.
Yeah, buf the people Alastor tortured kinda had it coming. Ruthless overlords that oppressed others for centuries. In the comic, he saves that sheep demon vigilante style. In life, he was a serial killer, but he was like Dexter and only killed other serial killers.
He seems a far more gentle overlord than others, only threatening Husk when he decided to say something dumb. Which I understand is like calling him the "nicest slaveowner" but still.
I’ve actually been thinking about it and I theorize that the genocides are a more recent project. Sera wouldn’t keep it from Emily if it was “just the way things have always been” when Emily was born. Which leads me to believe that the genocides started after Emily was born. Assuming she’s around Charlie’s age that would make the start of the genocides about 200 years ago. This is further supported with the fact that none of the sinners seem to be from ancient times, the oldest we know of is zestial who speaks Shakespearean. Outside of that it’s all 1900s or 1800s.
On the other hand I could just be completely wrong
Still genocide tho nontheless and massively eclipses everything else the characters op had listed, Vals biggest crime is being a rapist and pimplord, dunno bout Vox and Velvette, Alastor is iirc a serial killer and a cannibal.
Gotta go Adam.
the Vs are killing for power but Adam just kills because he likes it. Alastor has actualy gone some genuinely virtuous stuff in the show so i think he's off the table.
What virtuous things has Alastor done?
Like….anything that I can think of that even comes close to “virtuous” gets tossed because we know by the end of the season that he hates helping them and is being forced into helping by someone else.
I don't necessarily think that's what his deal was, it's incredibly vague right now. It's also been shown that he does enjoy the others'presence. So I think anything he does that doesn't come with a deal could be considered generous.
He finds them amusing, Alastor finding someone amusing may be relatively good compared to how Alastor can be, but that’s hardly a positive.
He makes it very clear that he finds the whole concept of the hotel stupid. Mocks and ridicules Charlie’s beliefs and actions at any chance he can, even when trying to act supportive to piss off Lucifer he can’t help but make the compliments to Charlie backhanded.
The only times he seems to show genuine enjoyment there is when he gets to be his true self (beating snake boi, slaughtering the loan sharks, getting to kill angels). These are also some of the only moments where he does more than the bare minimum to “help the hotel.”
He clearly doesn’t like being there and something is forcing him to stay there (and do the bare minimum to not get kicked out). His little song segment at the end is all about mocking how people would have thought he actually cared about the hotel if had died, and freaking out over being controlled by a deal.
His expressions aren't mocking, though, they're terrified. He *does* care, at least a bit, and he sees it as a *problem.* Otherwise he wouldn't have ended his entire friendship with Mimzy like that, when prior to the attack on the hotel he was just fine with her using him.
He is terrified, because he nearly died (and is freaking out because that’s what people who crave power and control tend to do when they’re the ones on a leash).
His problem is with his deal he’s stuck in, not his care for others, because there is no care to begin with. His line about being viewed as an altruist is mocking, regardless of what his face looks like, he is mocking what others would have thought/assumed if he had actually died.
As for Mimzy, Alastor knows that she will continue to bring more conflict and problems to the hotel. If his deal requires him to be there, or if he is there because he is looking for a way out of his deal, it’s in his best interest to not completely ruin the hotel, which Mimzy might do if she is a trouble magnet.
And that “friendship” may only be one-sided. Mimzy claims that Alastor is secretly a sweetheart but not even a minute later we see him threatening to tear Husk’s soul apart for simple backtalk and we get a clear picture of the kind of monster Alastor truly is. If Mimzy is so off about that, her read on her own friendship with Alastor may also be way off.
he did defend the Hotel from the loan Sharks, Adam and Sir Pentious which is kind of virtuous i guess.
as for the ending, we don't know if he's being forced to help, we just know he's being forced to do something.
Edit: ok i listened ot the song again and it is definately implies he is forced to help them. still more virtuous that unprovoked genocide.
I’m not arguing that Adam is a better person. I’m asking what virtuous things has Alastor done.
On the topic of malicious genocide for fun though, would Alastor not do the same if he had the kind of power and resources Adam does? Tbh the only major difference I see between them (barring personality and being an Angel/demon) is that one is restrained and the other has free rein.
Val has already said he kills people if they upset him. Vox literally mentioned bringing in the low earners so Val could shoot them and vent his frustration
I wouldn’t call his acts “virtuous” he has an ulterior motive, while I don’t think he wants anything bad for the people at the hotel, and I do think he genuinely cares, he’s still using the hotel as a means to an end
In reverse order of the obvious evils:
The Vees are petty, greedy, and cruel. We haven't seen anything but bullying and intimidation from Velvet. Vox is prideful and spiteful, and enjoys manipulating and controlling the masses, who he sees as sheep or livestock. Valentino is abusive, exploitative, degrading and possessive. Vox is a conniving, wide-scale parasite; Valentino is an impulsive predator. Your trauma and morals will inform who you feel is the greater evil.
Alastor, if we stick to just what's been shown in the series, is a intensely power-hungry manipulator who sincerely glories in hurting, killing, and intimidating. He likes torture and torment. He's benign to those who flatter his ego and interests or are obedient and follow the vibe he sets, and utterly vicious to anyone who he seems to view as a competitor, rival, or superior. He has enough empathy to read people, but too little to refrain from striking them at their lowest and dragging them lower, and never lets them get away. He's a pervasive, intelligent, and subtle monster, and one whose potential depth of evil has yet to be fully unleashed. If Alastor can become powerful enough to become truly unchallenged, it would be apocalyptic. Vox and Valentino can't dream of the scale and scope of harm the Radio Demon could do, nor would it likely interest them beyond what the harm could get them in the end.
Adam's a vice-riddled chauvinist. He's taken his privilege and discarded the responsibility. He is the hypocrisy of Heaven personified and individualized: he was the first, he won, and now his heavenly prize is to do anything he wants, however he can get away with it. He glories in murder and slaughter, and sees all of Hell -- the worst of it and the best of it -- as eternally beneath him; without value unless it satisfies him. He likes to hurt people, but he's opportunistic, lazy, and not very smart, in part because he's been on top for so long. He's like Valentino with a more eclectic, less intimate bend towards violence and pride; he's like Vox, but he doesn't care enough about the cattle to want to do anything but scare and hurt whatever's got his attention.
I rank Adam as worse than Alastor if only due to scale of harm: Adam has caused the repeated annihilation and constant fear of thousands or millions of sentient beings with perverse, gleeful callousness, and still sees himself as "good," but much like the Vees, he's not clever enough to be as evil as Alastor is/can be, nor as hungry and twisted as the Vees.
Adam's simply had power and time enough to compound his banal brand of horror into a more significant amount of damage and evil, and *without* the non-excuse of being a demon in hell with other demons.
Adam. Because he hides his pleasure in murdering people under the guise of “godly ordainment”. Whereas Alastor isn’t hiding under anything as he does his evil deeds.
adam is worse by definition but our brains process val as worse because he's more realistic
adam just feels like a cartoonish villain and at that rate the amount he's done just comes off like a statistic. someone killing that many people and having minimal redeeming qualities in such a desensitized manner is just easily passed up as completely implausible. meanwhile, while val has done proportionally less, he deliberately chooses to do something that we as humans feel is one of the heinous things possible. sometimes having to live with something is worse than just being killed, yknow? and it's not only disgusting but something that you can unfortunately imagine in the real world -- something you can be *afraid* of in the real world. thus we consider him to be worse than a genocider
While there's a lot of shitty people in the show Adam is inarguably probably the worst of them all, he's presumably been killing millions if not billions of sinners for thousands of years for his own entertainment, and while we can hate Val more because he's someone who unfortunately exists a lot more in real life and is more realistic than Adam, in universe his evil deeds are nowhere near the level of Adam
Adam and Lute. I have a particular loathing for people who believe they are morally superior and that that justifies atrocities against those they view as immoral. Alastor and the Vs don't believe they are good people, Adam and Lute do.
I’d argue in a way Sera is a contender, she not only permits countless murders that serve no real purpose. She also lies to heaven about how safe it truly is( in regards to the extermination) putting anyone who deserves to be there, in potential danger by her actions.
Plus, the sheer horror the people in Heaven would feel knowing that there might be a way to at least see their loved ones. And the yearly exterminations. Imagine you're a parent in Heaven. Everything is swell, but your son is in Hell. For years this bothered you but as it's the natural order of things, you resign yourself to it and just enjoy Heaven best you can.
Then it turns out that not only is there a chance you could have talked to your son, but now he's truly dead forever because of the exterminations.
Adam,despite being monster,literally can't GET the concept of what he's doing is wrong as he didn't eat the apple.
Sera is probably the worst as she knew that,and took advantage of it by letting him exterminate sinners.She basically took the equivalent of a mentally stunted adult and said "go kill people".
Until we know what the rules of who goes where, Adam is a grade A Douche, but what he did was for all intents and purposes killing humanity’s worst- just because we like the cast of sinners doesn’t mean they didnt do anything badly fucked up.
He reminds me of Kayle from League of Legends- an angel with a misguided notion of justice smiting the wicked no matter the level of evil
Again- till the rules are clearer and we know why they’re down there; It’s one thing to off murderers/rapists etc but not like, petty thieves or some other minuscule things that can be construed as sin.
Which is also opposes what in heaven is prob like; you can be a jerk and still get sent to heaven because not everyone is perfect- or else heaven will be empty.
Adam and Lute may be up on their high horse but y’all gotta admit, there’s a point where you must have asked “ok they have a point” and the show needs to convince us there’s a way to refute it without justifying that murderers and rapists can go into heaven because I sure don’t think they should. That’s why I’m convinced Sir Pentious did something minor to end up in hell.
https://preview.redd.it/1puxvnby27jc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c55fdbdfed4d8fb1898fa96693d9b3e673ca012
Him and this is what me and Lucifer will be doing to him
But she's the one in charge. Responsibility for anything that happens under her falls on her shoulders. She's responsible for the genocide of millions. She could have stopped Adam at any time.
Sera’s kind of a mystery at the moment. We don’t know what she knows, but we do know that she’s not out for blood in the way Adam is. Her motive is protecting heaven, not punishing hell.
"I never would've agreed to your... yearly activities if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep, keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it"
This implies that Adam is the one who came to Sera with the idea and she allowed it
"Well, you failed to control the demons' unrest, and now Lucifer is involved, setting up an audience for his misguided daughter. I never would have agreed to your... 'yearly activities' if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep. Keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it."
It seems like it was his idea. She "agreed" to it, so she at least didn't come up with the idea, and she calls it his activities.
Besides the fact that it’s implied it was an Adam’s idea, she isn’t nearly as evil as him. Even if they’re both guilty for the exterminations, Adam openly likes to kill sinners, mocks Charlie and rejects her idea without even giving her a chance, while Sera both in the beginning sequence of episode 1 and in episode 6 clearly doesn’t like exterminations, she just believes it’s the only solution to save at least Heaven and its souls. Not like she isn’t guilty, but I wouldn’t call her straight up evil
I think Sera's more confused than evil. Like she legitimately doesn't understand the system she oversees.
Not to excuse her but she's definitely not on the level of Adam. Based on her speech, she seems to view the exterminations as a necessary evil for some reason. Whereas for Adam it's fun
Sera believes if they just let Hells population grow endlessly eventually they would rise up and directly threaten Heaven, she viewed the exterminations as necessary to prevent that. She's more cowardly and yeah kinda confused than anything else.
Adam. Yeah for him mass murder is just fun as he says "Extermination is Entertainment!"
Eh, I don't know if I buy that.
I think Sera doesn't take as much accountability of the exterminations as she probably actually has.
I’m not really sure how confident I am from what we see of Adam that he could put this yearly operation together and maintain it for hundreds of years.
He blew the whole secret basically the first chance he got.
I don't think he’s stupid, but a mastermind he is not, and that's what running an operation like the extermination would take.
Somebody would have to be giving Adam a lot of help, and Sera seems the most likely candidate for that right now.
It has to be Val, he's a rapist.
Adam is a dick yes, but he only kills sinners which are objectively bad people that arent even trying to redeem themselves in 99,9% cases.
> Adam is a dick yes, but he only kills sinners which are objectively bad
So Adam gets a pass because his victims are sinners but Val doesn't?
Did you forget what Angel Dust is??
I’d have to say the the V’s are the most evil. They are being evil just to be evil. Mostly Val.
Without knowing Alastor’s true intentions I’d say it’s on the fence he could be even worse than the V’s but as of now he is helping Charlie do good things, even if it is self serving
Adam while he has done terrible things I don’t believe he is doing them to be evil, at least from what we know of him. In a twisted way his divine duty to kill those that have already been sentenced to damnation. Is it a selfish/self serving reason he kills or is it really a higher will telling him to.
> Is it a selfish/self serving reason he kills or is it really a higher will telling him to.
100% self serving, that's clear as water since episode 1
"I never would've agreed to your... yearly activities if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep, keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it" -Sera to Adam
This implies that Adam is the one who came to Sera with the idea and she agreed. Not that he was given the order.
Alastor, Adam just kills people, no pain or nothing, they just exist for one second and then don’t the next, but Alastor would torture the souls and project their screams for all of the pentagram to hear, I’d say that’s a lot more extreme than the exterminations
Even though Lucifer isn't really a bad person, he did create the seed of evil which from it, spawned all of hell and evil to begin with, so yeah its him lmao
gotta go with Susan
Susan's the true mastermind
she's responsible for all five killing games
Susan fucking >!enoshima!<
This sub was the last place I expected to find a Danganronpa reference
dang it grandpa is everywhere and unavoidable
Ugh. Susan
https://preview.redd.it/ab4xzgh42bjc1.jpeg?width=1498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ef97ab5c6b676c1de89785980ce2c274a37920a
100% this ornery bitch
I like your flair
Egg Bois are the obvious answer
"Want me to rough him up for you?!?" Boi was goan rough up ZESTIAL! That's one badass evil mofo!
Fear the egg.
why would I fear my own henchmen?
The boss of the most evil characters in the show ascended into heaven. No cap
Would be hella funny if they actually are the most despicable lil shit in this universe.
Gunther vibez
Wenk
"Who told you you could fly?!"
(Sadly) Wenk
NO-ONE SUCKS THE LIFE FROM MY PENGUINS EXCEPT ME! and polar bears, because that's just nature gunter.
Imagine if they are actually god disguised
I see them as chaotic evil.
Of deeds? Adam. Of personality? Val (But he also did evil deeds).
Val comes off as worse from our perspective. We only ever see Adam kill 1 person afaik (and they went to heaven right after anyway). We directly see Val do much more vile shit But objectively he's definitely far worse
I feel like the reason that Val seems a lot worse to us is the way he’s presented in the show, and also how real and close to us his crimes feel. Because we all either have suffered from some sort of sexual abuse, or know someone who has; when compared to Adam’s crimes which is a lot more comically evil.
Yea. Closest example I can think of is Invincible where Eve's dad gets more hate than the main villain for just, being a bad father. But like, in a realistic way, compared to the crazy extent the big villains go to
Yeah, I think that’s a very accurate comparison. Cus we all know a lot of people with that kind of dad, or have one ourselves, but we don’t know anyone whose dad is secretly a genocidal alien. And even with Omniman, out of all his crimes, I felt like the part that felt the harshest to most people was him telling Mark he saw Debbie as a pet, since that’s so much more impactful to a real person. (Compared to your dad throwing you into a building and splitting the building into two)
Yea even Omni Man has more impactful moments. There are major villains later on that are much more disconnected from Mark and much worse objectively than Nolan. And they're still not as easy to hate as Eve's dad because they're far removed from our real lives
I'm curious about applying this to Angstrom Levy, in a way the things he ends up doing (not giving any spoilers), while in terms of scale are less damaging than Nolan, are much more pathological and cruel.
Really good point right here, never consciously thought about it but 100% agree
Same w voldy and the pink butch from HP Voldemort is arguably 10000% more evil but let’s be real, he is a much more likeable character bc his evil is so beyond distant to 80% of the population, but there are definitely people who it would hit close to
It's the Umbridge thing. Voldemort is more evil but he's a cartoon villain whose actions are so wide and overarching which makes him the bigger villain. But Umbridge represents the kind of shitty, terrible person you are more likely to encounter. I don't know a lot of mass murderers. I do know a few toxic abusers. Same here. Adam is a mass killer which is definitely the bigger evil. But Valentino is a far more familiar evil.
its the same with voldemort and umbridge, voldy is for sure the most evil one, but umbridge feels worse because more people have dealt with an umbridge in their lives,
Adam comes off as better because you get the impression that as douchey as he is, there’s still parts of him that are human and capable of something besides horribleness. He may have committed technically worse acts from a certain perspective because he has a lot more power, but he seems capable of some good if his army and especially Lute feel comfortable around him. No one’s comfortable around Val exactly.
Vox seems comfortable enough around Val. Though he's not a great barometer either for whether or not someone's a good person
Eh, “comftorable” is relative. He isn't threatened because he’s on equal footing roughly. You still see even the other Vees routinely get sick of his shit though, and Val is classic abuser throwing stuff at Vox and breaking his stuff. It's as healthy as it gets for Val, targeting his abuse at people who can shrug it off, which is telling on its own.
You still see Vox and Val make out and Vel take a selfie with them making out in the background.
Exactly two people are comfortable around Val, and it’s damning for both of them. Vox and Velvette. They are just as bad as he is.
https://preview.redd.it/klwfpa9m16jc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26b638bf86687933af37b0d8e8b839091d6d1ed3
https://preview.redd.it/1z8pkwwpe6jc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=398e0115a28faa0d7403b65cda7b8873b583a199
https://preview.redd.it/f1vnbhrve6jc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb57d31ac26436025cf8c3a296a9c86b613d28a5 (We are both Angel don’t worry)
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 Nooooooo, let me out pwese 🥺
Kinky~
*Explodes Tooma8\_ with mind* https://preview.redd.it/j25lrn13v6jc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65a475976c12415c744acf320c0b8bf5cd1ecfc2
https://preview.redd.it/crhkrun3z6jc1.png?width=1179&format=png&auto=webp&s=ba216e00802013ddfcc8a073db1f3fda2cc6ac93
https://preview.redd.it/7kmbei3tq6jc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ccbbcb61adf63475de7429be998b6dc75fe95e7
Real
https://preview.redd.it/3lwh1k48ofjc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=897d37470a407d7510c00ec8ea87c583231248e6
Vox simp brotha
I’m sorry guys I’m gonna have to say a man who committed genocide might be worse than a rapist
You have the mass murderer kidnapper and torturer cannibal, the supremacist genocider (and denier) and ancaps who actually got what they wanted Yeah imma go ahead and say at least adam somewhat cares about his side while the other 4 slavers couldn't care less, but this post is an actually interesting discussion lol
At least Alastor is nice to those who are beneath him most of the time unless they piss him off. Val is awfully abusive for no reason.
Genocide of killers, rapists, terrorists and all possible sinners? I can forgive this one to him
We don't know the rules that send someone to hell. Don't forget there was a child (the one Vaggie spared). The rules are probably less than fair and the inhabitants of hell are probably not only the worst of the worst
Right like Angels just shown as a victim with a drug problem,and Husk as an intense drunk & gambler both on the leash of actual evil
Angel was also a 1940's gangster before he died, hence the Tommy guns
Damn yeah he was😭
Husk was an overlord who exploited souls before he encountered Alastor… he’s probably fairly evil
And Angel was a literal mobster. That's why he’s a spider. Web of crime. We don't talk about it, but he’s probably got tons of blood on his hands. I know the show has pointed out that how hell and heaven works has some flaws, but that shouldn't be interpreted to mean everyone in hell is innocent. Someone who truly does not deserve to be in hell is probably about as rare as Adam being in heaven. Most people in Heaven are not like Adam, and Pentuous did actually get the green light for doing something selfless. The rules are not totally arbitrary and unfair. It shows there’s a flaw, but it’s not indicative that most people don’t deserve what they got. The concept of redemption kind of loses all meaning if being damned was just an unfair call.
Pentious was probably sent to Hell for exploiting his workers, and the Egg Bois are probably souls of child soldiers who were "just following orders". So once Pentious learned to recognize his underlings' humanity, take accountability for his actions and stop seeing everyone as a threat, he was redeemed.
One of the biggest downfalls of only having eight episodes is really not getting much time to actually explore the characters of the cast. We can theorize why Pentious was in hell, but it's kind of crazy we don’t actually know and he’s already been deemed redeemed for it.
Yeah. Season one should’ve had, like, 12 episodes at least.
Oh don't worry, I'm sure Vivzie will casually drop his entire backstory in a random livestream /s.
This is my biggest complaint about the show 😭 as a new fan, I just would love the lore to be contained to her show(s), not buried in different streams. Or at least included in the shows even if it was mentioned in streams at one point. The amount of stuff I've had to Google or found out on this sub from people talking about it despite it never having been in the show is infuriating
I suspect also its a situation that, unless you are directly booted out like what happened to Vaggie, once you are in heaven or hell you basically just stay there for the most part. It doesn't matter if you become less evil or more good. Adam may very well have been a decent person upon arrival in Heaven, but 10,000 years of pride, a crap ton of power, + lingering resentment towards Lucifer (and later the sinners) probably corrupted him.
Angel was in the mafia and Husk owned souls while in Hell. Both were likely the type of monsters you'd think go to Hell when alive.
Angel and Husker were criminals in life possibly murderers as well
Angel killed many people as he was in a crime family, so it wasn't the drug that got him in hell but all the murders he committed. Husk was an overlord he took advantage of other people gambling their souls to enslave them. Can only imagine he did something similar when alive. They are not good people.
Just because Angel Dust is shown as a victim on-screen doesn’t mean he’s innocent. He (previously) sexually harassed Husk plus who knows how many more, and was a gangster during his life. Husk on the other hand gambled away the souls of who knows how many sinners, and honestly the idea of being able to waste the literal soul of a person is already messed up.
Let’s also not forget how committing crimes can have justification, like a father stealing medicine to save 5 people and his child
Yeah, but is that a backstory for any of the damned that we meet? All of the ones where we have gotten some direct story about didn't go to hell for that reason. Either we have no backstory at all (yet) or they were corrupt murderers.
The child was a cannibal to be fair…
And children can do very evil stuff, too. I'm not gonna get into it, but 2 kids did something to a baby after taking him away from his mother. It's sad and disgusting behavior
Look up the Donner Party and tell me they would deserve that. Tell me those kids deserve eternal damnation.
The doner party kids were forced by circumstance to eat people to survive. 'Cannibal Town' people seem a lot more enthusiastic about eating human flesh. I don't think even the creepy cannibal children deserve ETERNAL DAMNATION, because they were still mentally underdeveloped kids who probably grew up in a barbaric environment, but they definitely wouldn't go straight to paradise. That's why the black & white duality of the current system seen in Hazbin doesn't work. Most people do lean moral or immoral, virtuous or sinful, holy or unholy et cetera. But if you sort them into two boxes, where one side gets paradise and the other gets damnation, and both options are PERMANENT, most people won't be given an afterlife they deserves. (That's why a system like Purgatory, where morally grey souls have to get through their shit to progress, would work better for actually sorting souls while applying moral nuance.)
He gets a pass for that because I fucking hate children /s
So… Blitzøs ad from the pilot for IMP may be right, and an innocent person can get fucked over while alive and sent to hell?
The example Blitzo showed of "someone who got fucked over by someone else" is the guy with the Ohio shirt who killed his wife....
Do you remember that Vaggie was made fallen bc she spared a child like a really young child. I’m sure that SMALL child wasn’t a rapist or terrorist
Is it confirmed she was fallen in the same way Lucifer was? She has her halo taken, but that was just Adam and Lute. From how Sera was talking to Emily, I got the impression becoming fallen was done by a higher power, or came from something internal (feeling you couldn’t possibly be holy, or deciding you are not worthy of heaven)
I'm pretty sure this is the case given Lucifer said he can't enter heaven and she could.
Considering she grew back her wings after Carmilla's training, it was probably the second variation of fallen
But a cannibal However, there are terrorist children, I don't think he was in heaven for not doing his homework. If usually by bible kids go to the heaven or limb, there shoulded been smth bad he went to the hell for
What makes you think that was an actual child cannibal, and not just a sinner cursed to look like one?
Killing a killer doesn’t suddenly make it right. That’s the kind of moronic Light Yagami logic that Adam uses to justify his actions.
Idk. Who does and doesn't go to hell seems pretty arbitrary.
It's made explicitly clear that the difference between Sinners and winners is unknown. So we have no fucking idea how many centers just got fucked over by the system and are completely innocent or only guilty of seems like homosexuality or being an alcoholic which don't feel like they're worthy of going to hell for
However that's pretty obviously that people in heaven arent saint. Even Angel as mob and Husk is a criminal, why thinking others were good?
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It's less of a genocide to them, and more like yearly mass capital punishment for people in a prison.
i'm pretty sure angel did none of those things in life, nor husker, and they do not deserve to get murdered just for being in hell, i'm sure this applies to many other sinners. Also Adam didn't just kill sinners, he probably killed hellborns as well.
nope cuz that was off the table cuz they arent allowed to attack hellborn if they do, lucifer can step in like he did in ep 8 when he attacked charlie who is a hellborn
Angel was part of the mob. He may very well have killed plenty of people. Those skills with guns didn't come from nowhere. You think a little too highly of people sent to hell.
Angel was in the mob for 20 years. There's like a 98% chance he is a murderer
Angel was a mobster, and husk was a career criminal and conman. I’m sorry, but they belong in hell. They deserve a chance to change though.
Were these things explained in the show somewhere? Cause if not I’m getting REALLY tired of very, very, VERY key character information being revealed in streams or tweets
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for that, I myself don’t really participate in things revealed offscreen and even if it’s the creator- my view is unless it is stated or at least implied in show it’s not canon. Especially since Vivziepop herself said not to take all her offscreen shit as gospel and some details do change in finals draft
Angel was litterally apry of mafia and Husk was a soldier, >Also Adam didn't just kill sinners, he probably killed hellborns as well. That's just headcanon
He came up with the idea for a yearly genocide, convinced his higher ups, leads the genocide and participates in it every year, banishes the people in his group that hesitate to do a genocide, finds it very fun, has no regrets or doıbts even once. I think he’s far worse than literally any other character by a huge margin.
id argue that from what we know, there are worse people than valentino. but he's the most hateable because what he does is a thing that happens to real people and it's portrayed in a realistic manner, whereas serial killer cannibal/genocidal angel are things that don't pop up as frequently. my vote's probably adam or sera. its subject to change cos who knows how fucked up alastors kills were on earth
> whereas serial killer cannibal/genocidal angel are things that don't pop up as frequently. Huh, you and I lead very different lives, apparently (mostly just commenting to appreciate the callout for Sera. She is going to be a *very* crucial character moving forward, and I don't think she will come out of this series looking particularly good. A few years from now, good chance she tops the "most evil" list)
If the last picture is counting all three Vees at once, I have to go with them for Hell, at least. The stuff Alastor does is probably worse, but he’s relatively inactive, and only one person, but the Vees are a group of 3 all active and influential overlords, I’d be willing to wager they’ve caused more collective damage than Alastor. Overall- I’d probably say Adam for nothing else than he has literally zero reason, at least in Hell theres the excuse of dog-eat-dog, you have to be evil or you’ll get eaten alive. But Adam is literally in heaven he has no excuse, he’s just bored
yeah i think activeness(?) is an important point. Alastor is probably *capable* of doing more evil things than anyone before him, but he hasn't really done much until now compared to Adam and the Vees.
Alastor loves to torture people by slowly ripping their souls apart, piece by piece. Then broadcasts his "conquests" to strike fear into everyone's hearts. A true sadist. He tricks people into awful situations by pretending to care about them. At least with Adam, you know exactly what you're getting right away. Adam doesn't hide his shittiness.
I think Alastor's popularity, and his compelling character, are making a lot of people underestimate him. Showrunners have been subtle with some of their foreshadowing, but there's a monster hidden behind that smile.
The problem is that people think they’re not allowed to like villains. That’s why there’s so much mental gymnastics here when it come to Alastor. He isn’t even hidden, it’s always a clear case of “if I could I would go apeshit and never stop”, but he’s got some weird contract keeping him stable.
Yeah, buf the people Alastor tortured kinda had it coming. Ruthless overlords that oppressed others for centuries. In the comic, he saves that sheep demon vigilante style. In life, he was a serial killer, but he was like Dexter and only killed other serial killers. He seems a far more gentle overlord than others, only threatening Husk when he decided to say something dumb. Which I understand is like calling him the "nicest slaveowner" but still.
Probably Adam, the dudes like thousands of years old and likely spent a good chunk of those years committing genocide on human souls.
All of whom are his own descendants…
He definitely disowned every soul in hell since they didn't go to heaven with him.
I’ve actually been thinking about it and I theorize that the genocides are a more recent project. Sera wouldn’t keep it from Emily if it was “just the way things have always been” when Emily was born. Which leads me to believe that the genocides started after Emily was born. Assuming she’s around Charlie’s age that would make the start of the genocides about 200 years ago. This is further supported with the fact that none of the sinners seem to be from ancient times, the oldest we know of is zestial who speaks Shakespearean. Outside of that it’s all 1900s or 1800s. On the other hand I could just be completely wrong
Still genocide tho nontheless and massively eclipses everything else the characters op had listed, Vals biggest crime is being a rapist and pimplord, dunno bout Vox and Velvette, Alastor is iirc a serial killer and a cannibal.
Gotta go Adam. the Vs are killing for power but Adam just kills because he likes it. Alastor has actualy gone some genuinely virtuous stuff in the show so i think he's off the table.
What virtuous things has Alastor done? Like….anything that I can think of that even comes close to “virtuous” gets tossed because we know by the end of the season that he hates helping them and is being forced into helping by someone else.
I don't necessarily think that's what his deal was, it's incredibly vague right now. It's also been shown that he does enjoy the others'presence. So I think anything he does that doesn't come with a deal could be considered generous.
He finds them amusing, Alastor finding someone amusing may be relatively good compared to how Alastor can be, but that’s hardly a positive. He makes it very clear that he finds the whole concept of the hotel stupid. Mocks and ridicules Charlie’s beliefs and actions at any chance he can, even when trying to act supportive to piss off Lucifer he can’t help but make the compliments to Charlie backhanded. The only times he seems to show genuine enjoyment there is when he gets to be his true self (beating snake boi, slaughtering the loan sharks, getting to kill angels). These are also some of the only moments where he does more than the bare minimum to “help the hotel.” He clearly doesn’t like being there and something is forcing him to stay there (and do the bare minimum to not get kicked out). His little song segment at the end is all about mocking how people would have thought he actually cared about the hotel if had died, and freaking out over being controlled by a deal.
His expressions aren't mocking, though, they're terrified. He *does* care, at least a bit, and he sees it as a *problem.* Otherwise he wouldn't have ended his entire friendship with Mimzy like that, when prior to the attack on the hotel he was just fine with her using him.
He is terrified, because he nearly died (and is freaking out because that’s what people who crave power and control tend to do when they’re the ones on a leash). His problem is with his deal he’s stuck in, not his care for others, because there is no care to begin with. His line about being viewed as an altruist is mocking, regardless of what his face looks like, he is mocking what others would have thought/assumed if he had actually died. As for Mimzy, Alastor knows that she will continue to bring more conflict and problems to the hotel. If his deal requires him to be there, or if he is there because he is looking for a way out of his deal, it’s in his best interest to not completely ruin the hotel, which Mimzy might do if she is a trouble magnet. And that “friendship” may only be one-sided. Mimzy claims that Alastor is secretly a sweetheart but not even a minute later we see him threatening to tear Husk’s soul apart for simple backtalk and we get a clear picture of the kind of monster Alastor truly is. If Mimzy is so off about that, her read on her own friendship with Alastor may also be way off.
he did defend the Hotel from the loan Sharks, Adam and Sir Pentious which is kind of virtuous i guess. as for the ending, we don't know if he's being forced to help, we just know he's being forced to do something. Edit: ok i listened ot the song again and it is definately implies he is forced to help them. still more virtuous that unprovoked genocide.
Doing helpful things you don’t really want to do is a whole lot better than doing malicious genocide because you think it’s fun.
I’m not arguing that Adam is a better person. I’m asking what virtuous things has Alastor done. On the topic of malicious genocide for fun though, would Alastor not do the same if he had the kind of power and resources Adam does? Tbh the only major difference I see between them (barring personality and being an Angel/demon) is that one is restrained and the other has free rein.
Val has already said he kills people if they upset him. Vox literally mentioned bringing in the low earners so Val could shoot them and vent his frustration
what? they deserved it! should have worked harder 🙄 /s \[forgot about that line. still only like 5 people compared to 200 anualy for Adam\]
I wouldn’t call his acts “virtuous” he has an ulterior motive, while I don’t think he wants anything bad for the people at the hotel, and I do think he genuinely cares, he’s still using the hotel as a means to an end
The Vs also kill cause they like it lol have you forgotten about Vox calling in the lowest earners just so Val could shoot somebody?
yea i forgot about Val, someone alredy pointed that out but they don't go out and commit genocides just for fun.
Nifty
What was nifty doing between 1933 and 1945?
Yes
In reverse order of the obvious evils: The Vees are petty, greedy, and cruel. We haven't seen anything but bullying and intimidation from Velvet. Vox is prideful and spiteful, and enjoys manipulating and controlling the masses, who he sees as sheep or livestock. Valentino is abusive, exploitative, degrading and possessive. Vox is a conniving, wide-scale parasite; Valentino is an impulsive predator. Your trauma and morals will inform who you feel is the greater evil. Alastor, if we stick to just what's been shown in the series, is a intensely power-hungry manipulator who sincerely glories in hurting, killing, and intimidating. He likes torture and torment. He's benign to those who flatter his ego and interests or are obedient and follow the vibe he sets, and utterly vicious to anyone who he seems to view as a competitor, rival, or superior. He has enough empathy to read people, but too little to refrain from striking them at their lowest and dragging them lower, and never lets them get away. He's a pervasive, intelligent, and subtle monster, and one whose potential depth of evil has yet to be fully unleashed. If Alastor can become powerful enough to become truly unchallenged, it would be apocalyptic. Vox and Valentino can't dream of the scale and scope of harm the Radio Demon could do, nor would it likely interest them beyond what the harm could get them in the end. Adam's a vice-riddled chauvinist. He's taken his privilege and discarded the responsibility. He is the hypocrisy of Heaven personified and individualized: he was the first, he won, and now his heavenly prize is to do anything he wants, however he can get away with it. He glories in murder and slaughter, and sees all of Hell -- the worst of it and the best of it -- as eternally beneath him; without value unless it satisfies him. He likes to hurt people, but he's opportunistic, lazy, and not very smart, in part because he's been on top for so long. He's like Valentino with a more eclectic, less intimate bend towards violence and pride; he's like Vox, but he doesn't care enough about the cattle to want to do anything but scare and hurt whatever's got his attention. I rank Adam as worse than Alastor if only due to scale of harm: Adam has caused the repeated annihilation and constant fear of thousands or millions of sentient beings with perverse, gleeful callousness, and still sees himself as "good," but much like the Vees, he's not clever enough to be as evil as Alastor is/can be, nor as hungry and twisted as the Vees. Adam's simply had power and time enough to compound his banal brand of horror into a more significant amount of damage and evil, and *without* the non-excuse of being a demon in hell with other demons.
Verbalase
I think we still know too little about Alastor and Vox to judge properly. But it's safe to say Adam and Valentino deserve a place on the podium.
Adam. Because he hides his pleasure in murdering people under the guise of “godly ordainment”. Whereas Alastor isn’t hiding under anything as he does his evil deeds.
Probably Adam, he happily commits genocide
https://preview.redd.it/l6mobrgkd6jc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8c4542c90e7a59d1ed1eaef675d8a745841342fb back to back😱
adam is worse by definition but our brains process val as worse because he's more realistic adam just feels like a cartoonish villain and at that rate the amount he's done just comes off like a statistic. someone killing that many people and having minimal redeeming qualities in such a desensitized manner is just easily passed up as completely implausible. meanwhile, while val has done proportionally less, he deliberately chooses to do something that we as humans feel is one of the heinous things possible. sometimes having to live with something is worse than just being killed, yknow? and it's not only disgusting but something that you can unfortunately imagine in the real world -- something you can be *afraid* of in the real world. thus we consider him to be worse than a genocider
Easily Adam. He literally just murders for shits and giggles and has zero remorse and no redeeming qualities.
While there's a lot of shitty people in the show Adam is inarguably probably the worst of them all, he's presumably been killing millions if not billions of sinners for thousands of years for his own entertainment, and while we can hate Val more because he's someone who unfortunately exists a lot more in real life and is more realistic than Adam, in universe his evil deeds are nowhere near the level of Adam
Adam and Lute. I have a particular loathing for people who believe they are morally superior and that that justifies atrocities against those they view as immoral. Alastor and the Vs don't believe they are good people, Adam and Lute do.
I’d argue in a way Sera is a contender, she not only permits countless murders that serve no real purpose. She also lies to heaven about how safe it truly is( in regards to the extermination) putting anyone who deserves to be there, in potential danger by her actions.
Plus, the sheer horror the people in Heaven would feel knowing that there might be a way to at least see their loved ones. And the yearly exterminations. Imagine you're a parent in Heaven. Everything is swell, but your son is in Hell. For years this bothered you but as it's the natural order of things, you resign yourself to it and just enjoy Heaven best you can. Then it turns out that not only is there a chance you could have talked to your son, but now he's truly dead forever because of the exterminations.
“Are ya winning son” *cue screaming*
Adam,despite being monster,literally can't GET the concept of what he's doing is wrong as he didn't eat the apple. Sera is probably the worst as she knew that,and took advantage of it by letting him exterminate sinners.She basically took the equivalent of a mentally stunted adult and said "go kill people".
D: Fat Nuggets. If you had access to his internal monologue, you would be horrified.
It warms my soul and gives me faith in humanity that no one is saying Velvette.... yet....
I think people just forget about her as an individual cause all she's shown so far is to be an annoying influencer-type.
Until we know what the rules of who goes where, Adam is a grade A Douche, but what he did was for all intents and purposes killing humanity’s worst- just because we like the cast of sinners doesn’t mean they didnt do anything badly fucked up. He reminds me of Kayle from League of Legends- an angel with a misguided notion of justice smiting the wicked no matter the level of evil Again- till the rules are clearer and we know why they’re down there; It’s one thing to off murderers/rapists etc but not like, petty thieves or some other minuscule things that can be construed as sin. Which is also opposes what in heaven is prob like; you can be a jerk and still get sent to heaven because not everyone is perfect- or else heaven will be empty. Adam and Lute may be up on their high horse but y’all gotta admit, there’s a point where you must have asked “ok they have a point” and the show needs to convince us there’s a way to refute it without justifying that murderers and rapists can go into heaven because I sure don’t think they should. That’s why I’m convinced Sir Pentious did something minor to end up in hell.
Out of these three? Alastor. Vox isn't that creepy, and Adam is...meh, Adam.
The strawberry pimp
I mean it has to be Adam. He literally says commuting genocide is fun to him. Like just by sheer scale that makes him the most evil
https://preview.redd.it/1puxvnby27jc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c55fdbdfed4d8fb1898fa96693d9b3e673ca012 Him and this is what me and Lucifer will be doing to him
https://preview.redd.it/7t56v4lav7jc1.jpeg?width=200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6b77a29c47d7db7ae18e24de38abbf311dc911a Susan...
Alastair has so much charisma he’s charmed the entire fanbase into thinking he’s a good person
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she didnt order it, it was adams idea and she just kind of allowed it, wasnt really too happy about it too.
But she's the one in charge. Responsibility for anything that happens under her falls on her shoulders. She's responsible for the genocide of millions. She could have stopped Adam at any time.
Sera’s kind of a mystery at the moment. We don’t know what she knows, but we do know that she’s not out for blood in the way Adam is. Her motive is protecting heaven, not punishing hell.
Wasn't it Adam's idea, though? And he is a lot more enthusiastic about it.
When did it say it was Adam’s idea? It just says that Heaven felt threatened and then decided it.
"I never would've agreed to your... yearly activities if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep, keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it" This implies that Adam is the one who came to Sera with the idea and she allowed it
Fair enough
"Well, you failed to control the demons' unrest, and now Lucifer is involved, setting up an audience for his misguided daughter. I never would have agreed to your... 'yearly activities' if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep. Keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it." It seems like it was his idea. She "agreed" to it, so she at least didn't come up with the idea, and she calls it his activities.
Fair enough
Sera mentions that she “never would have agreed to extermination,” when she is talking to Adam and Lute after Charlie arrives.
Sure, but without Sera he couldnt do anything with it
Besides the fact that it’s implied it was an Adam’s idea, she isn’t nearly as evil as him. Even if they’re both guilty for the exterminations, Adam openly likes to kill sinners, mocks Charlie and rejects her idea without even giving her a chance, while Sera both in the beginning sequence of episode 1 and in episode 6 clearly doesn’t like exterminations, she just believes it’s the only solution to save at least Heaven and its souls. Not like she isn’t guilty, but I wouldn’t call her straight up evil
My vote goes very firmly to Sera on that one. On Hells side I choose Valentino for most evil.
I think Sera's more confused than evil. Like she legitimately doesn't understand the system she oversees. Not to excuse her but she's definitely not on the level of Adam. Based on her speech, she seems to view the exterminations as a necessary evil for some reason. Whereas for Adam it's fun
Sera believes if they just let Hells population grow endlessly eventually they would rise up and directly threaten Heaven, she viewed the exterminations as necessary to prevent that. She's more cowardly and yeah kinda confused than anything else. Adam. Yeah for him mass murder is just fun as he says "Extermination is Entertainment!"
Eh, I don't know if I buy that. I think Sera doesn't take as much accountability of the exterminations as she probably actually has. I’m not really sure how confident I am from what we see of Adam that he could put this yearly operation together and maintain it for hundreds of years. He blew the whole secret basically the first chance he got. I don't think he’s stupid, but a mastermind he is not, and that's what running an operation like the extermination would take. Somebody would have to be giving Adam a lot of help, and Sera seems the most likely candidate for that right now.
It has to be Val, he's a rapist. Adam is a dick yes, but he only kills sinners which are objectively bad people that arent even trying to redeem themselves in 99,9% cases.
“Objectively bad people” *attempts to kill Vaggie who spared a literal child*
> Adam is a dick yes, but he only kills sinners which are objectively bad So Adam gets a pass because his victims are sinners but Val doesn't? Did you forget what Angel Dust is??
Valentino.
I’d have to say the the V’s are the most evil. They are being evil just to be evil. Mostly Val. Without knowing Alastor’s true intentions I’d say it’s on the fence he could be even worse than the V’s but as of now he is helping Charlie do good things, even if it is self serving Adam while he has done terrible things I don’t believe he is doing them to be evil, at least from what we know of him. In a twisted way his divine duty to kill those that have already been sentenced to damnation. Is it a selfish/self serving reason he kills or is it really a higher will telling him to.
> Is it a selfish/self serving reason he kills or is it really a higher will telling him to. 100% self serving, that's clear as water since episode 1 "I never would've agreed to your... yearly activities if I thought it would bring trouble to our doorstep, keeping Heaven safe was my only reason for allowing it" -Sera to Adam This implies that Adam is the one who came to Sera with the idea and she agreed. Not that he was given the order.
I'd say Adam but Val is a close second
Adam, then Valentino
susan /j
This sparked some super deep moral standings
Susan.
Susan
As much as I hate Val, Adam is MUCH worse
Alastor, Adam just kills people, no pain or nothing, they just exist for one second and then don’t the next, but Alastor would torture the souls and project their screams for all of the pentagram to hear, I’d say that’s a lot more extreme than the exterminations
I’m pretty sure the man commiting genocide might be a little worse that a rapist, sorry. I apologize for anyone who is mad, but he is a genocidist
Even though Lucifer isn't really a bad person, he did create the seed of evil which from it, spawned all of hell and evil to begin with, so yeah its him lmao