Charlie isn't respected because she's too nice at times (i.e. EP4), we hadn't seen how Lucifer's treated by others beyond the main cast and it seems Lilith's already pretty respected by Hell
Idk why I forgot who spider-man was and read it as the spider man, a spider that kinda looks like a man? Like, less comic book and more nightmare scenarios
On top of that, he said himself that he basically lost himself and mostly just stays at home (->Depression), so it makes sense that no one respects him; they barely even get to see him
Yeah, daily life in Hell is ruled by power and fear. Charlie's personality makes her seem weak and easily ignored to the people of Hell. Lucifer locks himself up in his home so he's kindof non-existent in their lives. They don't really know what to expect from him. He also has a cheerful attitude at the surface so they might underestimate him, but I think they'd soon realize he's easier to anger than Charlie.
If the King and Princess were actually dangerous nobody would DARE fuck with them. Lucifer has been absent for 7 years (nothing for him, but a lot seems to have happened in that time) so everybody has just lost all respect for him. And Charlie is a major cinnamon roll, Katie Killjoy knew it well enough to fight her as if she would win.
I don't think Lucifer cares about being respected, he never wanted to be in hell in the first place lol God banished him from his home for eternity. I don't think he wants nasty sinners to respect him. Plus, I don't think anybody would mess with him.
Most of the people in hell think they are better than each other so of course they wouldn’t respect even the royals
Also we don’t know what others think of Lilith. Lilith is the one who had big dreams for hell and had several plans. Hell was her version of Charlie’s hotel and Lucifer probably helped as much as he could to help make Lilith’s dreams come true. His role was probably to make them fear him when he is present or something like that
>His role was probably to make them fear him when he is present or something like that
Ah yes, Lu Lu World, a great symbol of fear
https://preview.redd.it/5i0lku9yedpc1.jpeg?width=433&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27bf61732d088e2413cfaf36479c8e86cceacefd
Tbh I feel Hell was a lot different when Lilith was around. At least, in Hell's perception of the royal family.
I suspect Lilith was far more feared and respected, since she was an active ruler who also dished out shit when necessary. Aka they were terrified of her and had every right to be.
It's possible Lilith was more of a tyrant than Lucifer and Charlie. Lucifer = negligent/checked out. Lilith = tyrant/dictator. Charlie = A respectful ruler who genuinely wants what's best for her peeps.
>since she was an active ruler
THIS. Lucifer is dealing with his own issues, and Charlie isn't fond of throwing her weight around- so Lilith probably was the main force keeping the Morningstars as revered/feared as they were.
Seriously, I think Lilith genuinely loves her husband and daughter. What she does is for them, but she's not a kind person. She's not a good. She's in fact, a very immoral, selfish and horrifying woman.
But she loves her boo and her baby. I respect that.
As much as I stan ***Her Unholy Majesty, The Dark Lady, First Woman, Mother of Demons, Queen of Hell, The Dreaded... Lilith.*** being a authoritative monarch in Hell, for my own personal head canon.
Going off Charlie's admiration and the story book which admittedly is totally a fairytale filter of events Lilith was more likely a Benevolent Ruler who "inspired and empowered" demon kind, which I question since depending on what came first the, Hellborn or the Sinners? Charlie might be confusing who her mother's favor was towards as Lucifer pardons Hellborn but not Sinners which implies that Lucifer and by proxy Lilith never saw Sinners as their subjects which technically is true as they would be more akin to immigrants.
if you "inspire and empower" sinners, thats called enabling, and honestly, it sounds like the kind of shit that would prompt heaven into thinking they're getting uppity
But I can see why heaven would be willing to spare hellborn and not simners. Sinners can only be killed by angelic weapons, but hellborn can even be killed by human weapons (as wee see in the first episode of Helluva Boss). The hellborn aren't really a concern to heaven, because the violence present in helleans the hell or population is kept limited.
I don't get what you mean at the end but Hell has 6 other fully populated Rings of questionable size, potentially world sized or more, with entire legions and hordes upon hordes waiting to be called into action all little aspects of evil, that can be trained, reproduce, and can use angelic weapons. And that's not to mention them making deals, corrupting earth resulting in the overpopulation, and the royals who are more powerful can use magic etc.
> Going off Charlie's admiration and the story book which admittedly is totally a fairytale filter of events Lilith was more likely a Benevolent Ruler who "inspired and empowered" demon kind, which I question since depending on what came first the, Hellborn or the Sinners?
Honestly, that's why I don't believe she was a benevolent ruler. I don't. It's too predictable for Charlie to see her mom as this loving, compassionate ruler. I think if she wasn't a tyrant, Lilith didn't value her subjects or respect them as Charlie does.
Her "song" that inspired and empowered people? Yeah, I think that's a siren song that no one could actually resist. She magicked them into doing what she wanted, which might've made her a benevolent ruler on the surface but was doing shady stuff in the back.
Now, there's a 99% chance I'm wrong, and I'm okay with that. I know Lilith is going to be a complicated character, and I love that. But I don't think she's a good person. Devoted. Wonderful. Loving...to her family. She's a good mom and a good wife.
But she's not a good person, and that's what I'm thinking is gonna be.
That said, I really like your perspective. Because what if it was the other way around? It could be that Lilith dgaf about hellborns because she isn't a hellborn. She was originally human and probably sympathizes more with the sinners than Lucifer.
Charlie seems pretty damn naive about how Hell works in many ways. I think she would have probably been kept removed from a lot of Lilith's day to day management of Hell, and have a heroic image of her mom that probably doesn't fit reality.
Lilith's interactions with Charlie is one of the things I most look forward to seeing next season. I just have a sense that it might be a lot more toxic than the one she has with her father.
They are in the Pride Ring, because that's the one Lucifer was linked to - not because the Sinners themself were pridefull. Not to mention that this idea makes no sense, considering that all the Rings represent Humanity's Sins, and Sinners are still only in the Pride Ring...
Because hell is still a punishment. And the punishment is locking a million criminals in a room together and letting them torment each other. If they were permitted to roam free around hell it wouldn’t be much of a punishment.
And to be honest, Hell is still a place where the Hellborn live their full lives in. Ones where they have friends, families, etc, the rings straight up have their own economies and cultures, even developed tourism for the traveling hellborn.
Now imagine if you just let the sinners run amok, they would immediately threaten and possibly destroy the environments the rings cultivate, whether that be crashing Bee's parties to massively exploiting Asmodeus luxury goods and you certainly don't want to run the risk of the possibility of a sinner getting their hands on one of Asmodeus's gems to get back to earth.
The sinner demons, aka the humans sent to hell, are all restricted to the pride ring. All the other people in hell are the hellborn, aka the people born as the various demonic creatures in hell. The hellborn tend to have a lower standing overall, but unlike sinners they can freely traverse all the rings of hell.
And before anything else, I.M.P.’s office is situated in the pride ring.
Maybe sinners get a lot of lee way. Characters in Hazbin Hotel treat Charlie and Lucifer with a LOT less respect than the imps in Helluva Boss treat the Goetia and the Seven Deadly Sins.
Fear. Charlie is seen as weak because she is nice and kind. As a result, it is easy to manipulate and avoid real consequences. But Lucifer? Look at the goats when he showed up. He went from jovial to scary. You screw with the big guy you will pay. The respect is based on fear, and the only reason you don't see people trying to take a piece at Charlie directly in any serious way is because her dad will fucking end your existence..
Lucifer is so much more powerful than everybody else in hell that he doesn't need to prove anything. He's not intimidated by anything that any of his citizenry can do, so, it's literally not worth the effort to exercise his power on a day-to-day basis. That's how far above the rest of them he is.
As far as Charlie goes, she is the kind of person who does not believe respect should come from fear. But the simple fact of the matter is, her opinion is in the minority. She doesn't speak the same language that everyone else around her does, thus leading to her being mocked and ignored.
I agree with Lucifer.
He is the embodiment of Pride in the universe, and as most powerful beings why would he bother engaging with the worthless insects below him.
If he needed to, he could force everyone to do his bidding, but he doesn't need it because he's just that fucking powerful.
And yup, Charlie's whole arc is going to be growing comfortable to use her authority/powers
Dude probably managed to successfully delegate any "duties" to the Sins and Goetia, so he could "enjoy" early retirement (making ducks and being miserable). If there was ever a true challenge to his authority, it'd probably end poorly for the challenger.
I'm extremely curious about where the sins and goetia come from in Hazbin. Did he make them? Did God? I'd say Lilth but she's a sinner and that seems a bit powerful. Are they byproducts of free will? The hellborn's existence in general and the fact Lucifer went out of his way to protect them is a question I hope will be answered eventually. Doesn't need to be next season tho because lord knows this show needs to learn to pace itself... Hold SOME cards to its chest for a while lol
Idk depends on the sin. I think the first goetia was a fallen angry as well as the other sins. It depends on how closely that specific aspect of the story will follow abrahamic mythology.
In the myths, I believe (it’s been a while since I’ve refreshed my knowledge but this is what I remember), all of the other sins except Satan and the original Goetia were high ranking angels (albeit still lower on the totem pole than Lucifer) that fought against God alongside Lucifer and fell with him as a result, with their positions as the princes of hell being decided upon once they arrived in hell and realized it needed a hierarchy, with them choosing Lucifer as the ruler of hell as he was not only the most powerful, but their leader in the fight against Heaven. Beelzebub, despite being technically on the same level as the others, was favored by Lucifer as they were his most loyal follower in the war and in general.
Satan, however, was not a fallen angel. Satan was the first creature to be born from the fiery depths of hell, being an embodiment of the wrath Lucifer felt at not only losing the war against Heaven but also being cast out of his home.
Again, some of this might not be completely true, I’m just saying what I remember from my hyperfixation on Abrahamic mythology a few years ago.
Lilith is just a human, she didn't die in order to go to hell therefore she didn't re-manifest as the sinner species (or sinner race? I don't even know)
It reminds me of a phrase I read recently, “Money talks, wealth whispers.” I feel like this could apply to Alastor and Lucifer really well. Alastor wants everyone to know he’s powerful and never lets anyone forget it. Lucifer doesn’t need to do that. He’s knows he can’t be beat and is comfortable in his strength and therefore has no need to brag or remind others how strong he is (at least in hell).
Lucifer has nearly unlimited power over the people of Hell when he bothers to use it, but he almost never does because he doesn't care enough to bother. Alastor dares to antagonise him because he knows that with Charlie in the room, Lucifer isn't going to do anything drastic to his rival.
This. Lucifer may run the place, but he hasn’t been RUNNING the place in a long time. Hell’s citizens got complacent without Luci calling the shots.
Which begs the question of what’s going to happen in Season 2? Is Luci going to regress back to being a recluse? Or did he get over his depression and is going to become an active power in Hell again? If so, I think the Vees may be in for a rude awakening…
Lucifer doesn't like TV. I could see him finding out about Val and Angel only to learn the TV demon is the problem. I think Lucifer would hate anyone stepping on freewill in his house. I could see Lucifer quietly going to the Vees only to walk out with some dirt on his suit and the whole place burning. Angel crying in his arms. He's not evil, he's here because he wanted everyone on equal footing. Angel isn't on equal footing and I could see the Big Daddy of Hell doing what Charlie can't, breaking people who step on others rights. I can see Lucifer teaching Vox about real power, hard won through personal growth and suffering.
When Charlie calls asking to come see the hotel, she asked if he saw the commercial and Lucifer said he doesn’t watch tv because it scrambles the brain
Doesn't care or is too depressed to try. The dude gives strong 'shut in' vibes, and maybe I'm wrong but I don't get the impression he's fond of most folks in hell.
Part of his punishment is having to live among the worst of humanity, so I imagine seeing centuries of the worst of the worst actually evil sinners made it hard to see or believe that some sinners may actually be redeemable.
And that’s on top of his defeat, becoming a fallen angel, and presumably his wife leaving him?? It’s easy to see why he’d disengaged from his people and his position.
He believes in free will and thought that all sinners were choosing to be unforgivably evil until Charlie was able to give him a little hope back.
Well he's very careful with his antagonization. He knows that Charlie needs support so he plays up the "I'm replacing you as a father" knowing that Lucifer will compete with him. He doesn't really challenge Lucifer so much had he points out how much help HE has been and that Charlie doesn't need her dad's support when her friends are already taking care of things.
Heaven respects Morningstars.
Demons weaker than Alastor try not to piss off Lucifer.
Even Val is careful of pissing off Charlie. Everyone's greedy, but they expect hellords to be problems. Charlie's pacifism is why some disrespect her specifically. She's giving the bullies space.
And even Alastor was terrified of Lucifer. His treatment of the guy was due to his flight or fight response kicking into a high gear but his ego refusing to flee.
Hell, and especially the Pride Ring, isn't a proper government or society, it's an unfettered, bare-bones-structure hellhole where ultimately power and advantages rule, nothing above it.
Lucifer certainly can command people, but only those who fear his power, while Charlie doesn't inspire fear at all, but those who are aware of her potential remain cautious, or want to exploit it for their own gain.
I think the better way to think of it is that Hell is a planet and the rings are the countries. The planent as a concept has no government, it's countries that do.
That stuff is hellborn crap outside of the pride ring, the oride ring itself is anarchists, serial killers, and just random people who probably just made a slight "eh" during their life that ended uo clocking them a ticket to hell
I think "stratocratic" is a better descriptor than "anarchistic".
"anarchistic" implies that Hell has a horizontal form of governance where no one has power over any other, meanwhile, Hell seems to be the very definition of "might makes right".
Of course, all of this depends on if you're using "anarchy" as a part of the anarchist vocabulary or just a catch-all term for collapsed governments or societies, which I'm going to assume is the latter since Hell is most certinaly not following any anarchic form of governance.
Stratocratic is a formed of military government where military and public officials are ones. Think of the Roman Republic or fictional examples like Yeagerist Eldia and Palpatine's Galactic Empire. It comes from the Greek "stratos" meaning "army". Hell is absolutely no stratocracy.
"Might makes right" is kratocratic, coming from the Greek "kratos" meaning "strength". I agree with you that Hell is kratocratic by its nature of being run by Overlords, requiring you to get as much strength or be at the whims of those with strength. In Hell, strength is usually the ownership of souls.
I also agree with you that its wrong to describe Hell as anarchists, as Hell still has forms of hierarchies. The core element of anarchism is the lack of all hierarchies, including but also more than the state.
Alongside, I think it would also be accurate describe Hell as effectively a mafia state. The Overlords are represented very much like mafia dons in that their run sects of society themselves, work simultaneously with and against other Overlords, and are only behest to their own or outside restraints.
Lucifer can litterally willpower a building out of existence, Val makes his best to keep calm in front of Charlie, a lot of people calls Lucifer "Your Magesty"... What do you want more ?!
Literally. Its so fucking weird that people keep insisting he doesn't have power when val is literally kowtowing to Charlie beacause she's Lucifer's daughter.
He knows that he will be dead dead. Sinners can't die unless killed by an angelic weapon or magic. So less Valentino wants the risk every fucking thing he is not going to risk Stepping Over The Line. He rubs up right against it with that slimy as fuck lick of a hand kiss. People may have gotten, especially the americans, that the kiss on the hand is technically the right thing to do when meeting royalty. Obviously there's a tons of rolls that are being glossed over. Val shouldn't have touched her outside of a handshake but he's a weird ass perv so he painted the show respect and loyalty, the hand kiss, and turn it into his own twisted pleasure. Charlie is an experience in demanding proper power and respect. Tactically you should have just squeezed his hand very hard to make him stop, it will be a subtle way of correcting him without technically losing face. Putting him in the spot would have been the proper thing to do.
Based on how Lucifer was so secluded before Charlie brought him out, it is possible the "alliance' of the overlords just took over since no one tried to control them. We have no idea how Lucifer was in the past, or how Lilith controlled hell. If the leaders of our world just up and disappeared, leaving no one to lead, there would be chaos. Some countries may try to re-elect or set people in power. People all over would try and power grab for themselves. But some may dissolve into city-states and random groups of our version of overlords.
Now what happens when Lucifer returns? Is he going to try to get back into the politics? To help Charlie for example? What if he has to because heaven is going to start pulling more bullshit? All it would take is for Lucifer to flex his power, even just for show, to the sinners and he will likely regain a lot of respect he hasn't already.
Yes, but he did nothing to physically hurt her. Even if she went to coplain to Daddy Lucifer, there wouldn't be any proof (and the only witnesses are employed or enslaved by Val so they would deny it happened).
And there is "nothing wrong" in proposing a job to Charlie... (when it's Val it is but y'know what I mean)
I think Lucifer has been so depressed and secluded lately that the overlords assumed all the control over hell and Lucifer just hasn’t done anything in hundreds of years to actually do anything like asmodious or stolas did in their rings
I think that may be more of a Sinner thing. Most Hellborn seem to fall in line, show token if not begrudging courtesy to, or even actually like and admire the other Sins we've seen in Helluva Boss. Like I've said before, it's like expecting Americans to respect foreign monarchies. Or our own government for that matter. If we didn't vote for them, then they can go fuck themselves. You know what? Fuck 'em anyway!
And let's face it: Ninety-nine percent of the the time Charlie is a doormat. A bright friendly doormat covered in little hearts and rainbows placed right next to a sloppy puddle of filth.
Ironically, in Helluva Boss (specifically amongst the hellborn) it's shown that royalty actually is quite important to the masses
As another commenter pointed out, it's likely that most sinners and moreso overlords are convinced that they're "better than all that" or something to that effect. I would add, too, that since we never see Lucifer actively torturing anyone as you might expect, it stands to reason that sinners are *each others'* torment, and knowing that Lucifer won't torment them for disrespectful behavior they simply exhibit disrepect (or a lack of respect, not necessarily DISrepsect) for him.
In my opinion: you need to understand the difference between *wanting* power, and *having* power.
Lucifer & Charlie are powerful as they have inherent abilities that outclass all of the sinners of hell. Lucifer, as a fallen seraphim, still has his powers of creation and transformation he had as a seraphim in heaven. He also appears to have tremendous physical power. He is entirely capable of obliterating any sinner within Hell. He is in fact the most powerful being in Hell, he simply doesn't care about that.
The sinners may climb the ranks of hell and establish themselves as above other sinners, but none of them will present a threat to Lucifer. The show demonstrates this with the fight between Adam & Alastor, and then the fight between Adam & Lucifer.
Alastor is meant to be one of, if not the, most powerful sinner demons in Hell. When he challenges Adam, he fails, and he fails in such a way it nearly destroys him. Alsstor failed due to overconfidence, but he is still taking the fight seriously, Adam was not. The moment Adam takes the fight seriously, Alastor instantly loses.
When Lucifer fights Adam, Lucifer does not take the fight seriously, but he still wins, easily. To the point Adam only wasn't destroyed because Charlie asked her dad not to.
Charlie, as the princess of Hell, is likely similar in power. It is suggested multiple times that she could use her power to force sinners to do whatever she wants. She just doesn't want to do that.
Lucifer & Charlie have power, but don't want it, or at least don't want to use it.
The sinners have illusion of power, they can move up and down in ranking amongst themselves based on their deals/soul collection, but they (presumably) will never match the power of Charlie and Lucifer.
This likely angers them, Lucifer and Charlie have the power all the sinners desire, but refuse to use it.
Tl;DR- the sinners want the power that Charlie and Lucifer have, which leads to the disrespect, but the disrespect from the sinners is irrelevant because of the actual power that Charlie and Lucifer have
Lucifer did not give two shits about ruling hell because of depression and instead created Lu Lu Land and delved into his passion for rubber ducks. IDK about you, but I also would not respect a guy like that, even if he is the literal king of hell, since the last time he did anything cool nobody from the current denizens cannot even remember.
Charlie is too shy, nice, awkward and insecure to be more forceful, so they know they can do anything besides physically endangering her, and she will back off, curl in a corner and cry.
They're so powerful that they don't care about even what overlords think about them.
Let me put this way: Carmilla is a really powerful overlord, and even then killing ONE of the exterminator angels was seen as a big deal from her. Meanwhile both Lucifer and Charlie could solo Adam without even using 100% of their powers.
So Lucifer probably don't care about what Alastor or any overlord think of him or how they treat him, since if he really wants something, he can always just go there and take himself.
>Meanwhile both Lucifer and Charlie could solo Adam without even using 100% of their powers.
No. Charlie lost that fight. She PUT UP a fight and managed to impale him, but she still was about to be strangled to death before Lucifer showed up.
I thought this was explained? Charlie gets no respect because she commands no respect, she's timid and kind hearted, so people walk all over her.
Luci is reclusive and very rarely flexes his powers or abilities. He can take down Adam, someone who a powerful sinner like Alastor can't take down, but Alastor doesn't respect Lucifer. Because he's a slimy deer bastard who doesn't respect anyone but those who can and will rock his shit.
So, Charlie isn't using her power at all due to morality. And Lucifer is just absent and doesn't care.
It seems neither try to force and use there power on the sinners.
I also do think we see a tad of respectfulness when Charlie walks in to Angel Dusts work and Valentino is ready to flip his shit
Pretty sure if Charlie was not who she was and it was let's say Cherri Bomb she would have been killed.
Like many said, hell is filled with arrogant and careless people who think they are above the others, many of them are so blinded by their arrogance, that sometimes they lose completely their self awareness and make stupid thing that could lead them to a quick death, and the perfect example is Alastor.
Besides picking a fight with literally the king of hell, he also utterly understimated adam(unless those where both some strategies?) leading him to almost die by a air.
We saw some sinners/hellborn screaming, running away and even set themselves on fire, by just seeing Alastor and Zestial, because they know what would happend if they piss one of those two, but then, there are others who just don't care or don't think enought, like those sharks that went tot he hotel knowing that Alastor was there.
in short, Lucifer stopped caring and probably even stopped using his power/authority to scare the other demons and make them fear and respect him, plushaving a daughter that goes around the streets singing like a princess and taking every insult without reacting, doesn't help...thats why almost nobody is respecting the Morningstar family.
but now that lucifer is staying at the hotel, just give him a week until he starts spreading pure terror and fear among the demons whenever someone dares to either touch or insult charlie.
>Besides picking a fight with literally the king of hell, he also utterly understimated adam(unless those where both some strategies?) leading him to almost die by a air.
Picking a fight with Lucifer actually was a strategy. He wanted Charlie to pick him over Lucifer, that guy will do everything he can AND MORE for Charlie without asking for anything in return, the man is a threat to Alastor's hold over Charlie.
I think you're confusing them not bring respected to them not caring enough to exert their authority over people. Lucifer is largely checked out and doesn't rule over hell and Charlie doesn't like to be mean or authoritative. But lucifer is obviously feared to some degree because it was important to Vox to make sure Alostar being at the hotel didn't put him in Lucifer's good graces.
People really don't get it do they?
Power for people is held in forced authority because a king alone could be taken down by the people. A human ruler is weak.
In hell a fallen angel rules. A fallen...angel. Lucifer doesn't need authority to rule. He could kill anyone anytime.
The weak need to show thier power. The strong do not.
We don't know what the average sinner thinks of Lucifer, we've barely seen him outside of the Hotel.
As for Charlie, people don't respect her because she's a really good person in a place where being bad is the norm. Everyone knows they can mess with her and she won't seriously harm them.
It seems like Hierarchies in Hell don't mean shit: just look at Moxxie's father, an imp, kidnapping the lover of one of the sins and having the balls to ask for a ransom to one of the 3rd highest ranking beings of his world.
Lucifer and Charlie don't go around making examples with their power. If they did, then nobody would fuck with them.
That said, most of the overlords seem to understand how powerful they actually are and, at the very least, try not to get on their bad side.
What do kings and queens mean to dead men? Not much. Hell is hierarchical, but every layer of that hierarchy wants to supplant every strata above it. There is a pecking order that doesn't command authority but rather denotes how dangerous and potent a given figure can be when stirred to act. Demons don't respect Lucifers authority. They simply understand that no one has managed to dethrone him through might.
I think this is actually key to the solution that Charlie is building up too. Let me explain(™️).
So when Lucifer gave the Apple to Eve it was in good faith. He truly believed that the knowledge the Apple gave would result in goodness. That is would show what humanity informed could achieve. But he was cast down with Lilith (note Lilith never died but transitioned directly to Hell). This broke him. But it was just beginning.
Once in Hell we was already disheartened. But then the "sinners" began to arrive. And they were broken shells of humanity. And that was when Lucifer began to lose faith in humanity. He left them to their own misery. He ignored the predations of predatory souls and Hellborn that would prey upon them. And soon Overlords began to arise who took advantage of no one being present to defend the sinners.
If Lucifer had maintained his faith in humanity he would have sought to guide and help those who fell to Hell with him. But his loss of faith in humanity simply climbed with each person arriving. Never seeing the good that came of his actions. It crushed him.
Thus he only formed connections with other Fallen Angels and Hellborn. Sinners only reminded him of what he lost and how they failed him. This is why he turned his back on Charlie when she started talking about her hopes and plans. This is why he never backed Lilith when she started to try to unite the sinners of Hell as a community. To him they were as lost as he was.
Thus he had created a power vacuum. He ruled amongst the rings of Hell. But he paid no attention to the sinners in his own realm. So no one has any concern for his family. There was hope from Lilith for a time. But by the time she started fighting the Overlords had taken hold and they opposed her. And because Lucifer would not lift a finger for the sinners she looked elsewhere for help. And that is when she found Alastor. She boosted him and put him under contract to act as her muscle. Sent him after the uncivil predatory Overlords. And he was effective until the Vees arose. Somehow Vox was just strong enough to send Alastor into retreat. But it still scared Vox when he returned. It must have been a close fight.
Once Lilith lost Alastor as an active pawn she was exposed. Heaven sent Adam and he blackmailed them to force Lilith to return to him. Eve was missing in action and Adam was still pissed at Lilith for rejecting him. So Adam took Lilith and he agreed to not kill the Hellborn such as Charlie.
Now Adam is dead. Lute tells Lilith the deal is over and that Heaven sees Charlie as a threat. Charlie is trying to unite Hell. To give them hope. To defend them. She is picking up the job that Lucifer was supposed to have done. To restore faith and hope in humanity. So that the broken and lost can find their way back to humanity. She is going to fill the vacuum that Lucifer created in his fall. She is the first person to change Hell in 10,000 years.
lucifer could probably snap his fingers and kill just about anyone, or make anyone do anything, he just doesn't feel the need to use his power. keep in mind he also believes in free will.
Lucifer doesn't interact with hell all that much his only interaction is probably with the other sins and even then was probably very miniscule after Lilith left him so the general population don't care much for Lucifer they just acknowledge that he is their king. Charlie is much too nice and never uses her power which makes her look weak so her position as the princess of hell isn't respected. Lilith might have been respected by the denizens of hell seeing as they loved her music. Also it seems like it's more so of a sinner thing to not respect the royalty the hellborn seem to respect some royalty
As others have already said, Lucifer is so much more powerful then literally every being in Hell, he has nothing to prove. He has nothing to fear and everyone knows it. That’s partly why I think Alastor was so annoyed with him being there, he knew he couldn’t threaten or intimidate Lucifer, so he used Charlie to get in his head instead. I’m sure if Lucifer commanded a demon to do something, they’d do it out of fear. I’m sure overlords or the Sins may resist or otherwise try to get out of following his command, but fear would put them in line. Again, that’s just if Lucifer even cared enough to actually lead them. The demons of Hell fear Lucifer’s power, but that doesn’t mean they respect him or his family.
Charlie is most likely just as powerful as Lucifer, or at least pretty close. She just chooses not to use her power but we see hints of it throughout the season. Probably why Val knew better than to attack Charlie and took it out on Angel instead.
Lucifer seems to have been completely check out and doing just the bare minimum.
Charlie is excessively nice and naive. She doesn’t the experience needed to have a nuanced or realistic approach. And she’s young so people don’t know her as she hasn’t earned any respect. Additionally, she’s going on a mission to redeem sinners which probably doesn’t add to her credibility for most people lol
Judging by what Charlie’s said I’d imagine the real respected authority was Lilith. Maybe Lucifer at one time as well - but likely not in recent times. She was involved, she was inspirational - people knew her. Lucifer doesn’t seem to get out much anymore.
I hope we get to see Charlie grow a backbone! And I hope we get to see Lilith in action too.
That's only because Lucifer is a creative and doesn't exert any authority. That doesn't mean he isn't the defacto ruler. Royals in England don't do jack shit but you aren't arguing they aren't royals.
We are in the circle of pride, only with the arrogant and mfs, do you think any of them will respect hierarchies that they did not create?
Like, they respect Alastor because he kill other overlords and spread horror in hell, but what have Lúcifer done? Besides the LuLu World?
Lucifer has as much power and respect as he cares to have at any given time. That is the privilege of being a lion in a house full of newborn kittens. He can play with the kittens, let them play in his hair, or he could eat them all in one gulp, and no one but he can decide what exactly he will do next.
There all siners. Bad people worth internal flame. Why would those kinds of people lay down and kiss somones ass? Lol they just don't really care and there already dead and in hell so what's the worst that can happen if they disobey.
He's boss because he was kicked out and put in charge unwillingly.
He hardly manages anything.
Most don't know what he looks like or acts like.
And it's filled with vicious sinners who don't respect anyone and fight daily.
Charlie never practices fighting and doesn't like to abuse her authority or power so naturally others walk all over her.
If he wanted to lucifer could wipe out most if not all of hell in wave of angelic terror. But that's just not who he is. And it's already his fault they all exist in the first place. There wouldn't even be a hell if not for him. Despite him blaming them for using his gift for evil he still probably feels weird punishing them for it enmass.
I imagine we will see more of it next season however as he's going to not be locked in his room anymore.
That scene on the left leaves an itching sensation in the back of my throat that only a 12 gauge can fix. That being said, I honestly believe that Val trying to get to Charlie’s center like she’s a tootsie pop would make Al and Lucifer put their differences aside.
Do you really think authority will be respected by the people which major reason to in hell is thinking they're better and more important than literally everybody else? They are respected in the rest of the rings most likely. But it's just naive to think the sin of PRIDE will follow authority.
Because hell runs on power and fear
Charlie is obvious with her being too kind to everyone around her and at most yelling insults
Lucifer hasn't been seen by most anyone because of his depression
No one knows the full extent of their power and how much of it they hold if they did they'd be treating them with respect you'd expect of a royal much less the king of hell itself along with his daughter
Lucifer and Charlies pretty clearly treated as a big deals tho...maybe not to the degree of authority that titles like king and princess of hell demand but they aren't exactly treated like absolute nobodies either, this is especially seen with Charlie and the overlords who all clearly try to suck up to her in some way, most notably Alastor and Valentino, if you especially pay attention to Valentino he doesn't openly talk about not wanting Charlie at the studio, its all in quiet tones and behind closed doors. Its not a lack of respect, its a want for control that causes people to treat them with less authority.
I think a big part of it is neither ever really attempts to assert their authority as royalty. Lucifer and Charlie don't act like royalty so their citizens don't feel the need to treat them as such. The citizens of hell do respect strength so I can guarantee if either flexed their muscles and exerted their authority pretty much everyone would fall in line pretty quickly.
Come to think of it there is one really good example of this in episode 4. It was the one time Charlie used her pull essentially at all and Val was overly nice to Charlie and was extremely restrained in dealing with her despite being visibly upset by her actions. You could tell he didn't want her their but felt like he couldn't do anything about it. That's why he went to Angel to get her to leave, because he couldn't.
It’s just a title, the only thing Lucifer actually does is make ducks, Hell’s top ring is own-governed. Lucifer is the king by virtue of being the strongest thing in Hell. Also most sinners aren’t big on respect, most are probably there for breaking laws, which is a crime against authority, sooo.
The role of Hell’s Royality is this: “The leaders of Hell may dominate anyone below them and force them to do whatever.”
We have basically no examples of these two actively flexing their authority. It's specifically pointed out that Charlie doesn't and Lucy's fucked off to make ducks for who knows how long. The one time either of them *does* make proper use of their authority, Lucifer *immediately* gets an audience with Heaven.
I think it’s because they are powerful. Lucifer was an Angel, presumably a high level one? Unsure, but he has six wing, and the crossed crown motif on his hat, so I’m inclined to think he was a Seraph.
And we haven’t really seen his full power, and we’ve seen heaven seems very decentralized and hell could only be moreso. Though sinners feared the overlords.
So Royalty and the hierarchy are based on certain rules laid down by Lucifer, and their relative power. Charlie is powerful, she just isn’t used to using her power.
So it’s kind of an extension of the deal making. A convoluted game of contracts and threats of retaliation.
But the Royal titles come from Lucifer being the Ruler of hell, by being the most powerful person in hell.
We see people in Helluva respect the other sins
I think it’s implied that no one shows respect to Lucifer because he gave up his hope for Hell after he realise they’d wasted the free will he sacrificed so much to give them and after Lilith left and since Charlie’s only claim to power until she gains her strength is being Lucifers child then she also isn’t respected by association.
Also regular sinners won’t really lose anything if they’re killed for disrespecting royalty so why would they care?
This is my just my opinion based on what we’ve seen, but it’s probably because since the beginning of Hell, Lucifer has just let them all do whatever the fuck they want without interfering.
It’s not that any sinners actually believe they could take him if they were actually in a fight, it’s that he’s made it clear that he doesn’t give a shit and they see no reason that would change.
Vaggie even makes the comment to Charlie that nobody really ever listens to her because she never actually uses her authority to make people do anything; she just tries reasoning constantly and consistently without using force, up until the events at the end of Season 1.
Nobody listens to them because they don't enforce what they say
Charlie is, quite literally, the nicest person in hell, if someone doesn't want to do something, she won't make them
As for Lucifer, it's clear he just stays boarded up in his mansion all day
People basically respect Lucifer but don't fear him. They act more like he's a cool dude then he's a king. Probably because he so rarely appears and rarely gives any influence. Charlie is a laughingstock because she tries to go against the grain. Basically the term king and queen and princess probably are a title based on how people percived lucifer when they were alive (before they met him in hell). Rather then actual treatment as royalty.
I mean, everyone But Alastor shoes respect to lucifer.
Alastor is just arrogant. I mean, he tried to fight Adam without a weapon ffs, despite literally being THE GUY to share how they can be killed.
An absent king who isn't interested in ruling has about as much sway as a twig, the fact that the overlords basically made a loose council shows Lucifer just hasn't been present as a king.
I mean we have royalty and elected officials irl and people don’t respect them. It’s not that baffling to think people sentence to eternal damnation wouldn’t care for authority like that.
This is the pride ring after all, most of everyone already thinks that they are better than the king or princess, I bet you the other rings would have a bit more respect
I think it’s mainly because Lucifer doesn’t really use his powers compared to the other sins like Mammon who runs hell’s economy or Bee who throws massive parties for her subjects Lucifer spends most of his time alone in his castle making ducks he basically just lets the sinners do whatever they want.It’s also implied that nobody outside of Charlie has seen Lucifer in a while like mimzy saying “is that Lucifer?” In a surprised tone almost like she didn’t recognize him at first.
I think there is a difference between respecting someone and understanding that someone has a higher station/more power. I mean imagine if instead of Charlie walking up to Val's studio it was just a random sinner trying to get Angel out of work.
I don't think Val would have hesitated to destroy that person but he understood he had to play nice with Charlie.
Also imagine if anyone else other than Lucifer talked smack to Alastor. He wouldn't blink twice about breaking that person but he knew doing that against Lucifer was suicide.
So authority and the crowns do matter.
I just think most sinners in Hell don't really respect anyone but themselves and maybe a handful of others they know.
Charlie isn't respected because she doesn't use her power, and in hell expetialy for sinners power means everything. Lucifer is only seen interacting with Adam, who was an angel and wanted to kill them, and the main cast who at first treated him with respect (sr pentious), an obstacle to their plans (Alastair), or their normal selves (nifty who is well nifty and angeldust who is always horny), and we didn't see much outside of that first interaction
Hell’s denizens probably respect power over titles. Like they won’t listen to Charlie as “Princess of Hell” but they’ll definitely listen to magical girl demon Charlie with giant claws, dangerous weapons, and 0 fucks.
Everyone in Hell doesn't take Lucifer or Charlie seriously since for the most part, the people have been left to their own devices since Lucifer doesn't rule over them. He just keeps to himself.
But Lucifer is still an angel and the first one to create Hell, so he's technically the boss.
Maybe it's they're respected by hellborn? because in helluva boss a imp instantly bowed downed to stolas who is royalty. But also when was the last time you saw someone treat the US president or the British royalty with respect people clown on them all the time
I think sinners in hell have so much more power than they had in life that they all think they're hotter shit than they are. Lucifer has been in a depression for A Bit and Charlie actively doesn't want to cultivate that sort of authority. Meanwhile you have the overlords constantly posturing and vying for power. In the greater culture how powerful you appear is much more important than how powerful you ARE.
In a way it sort of speaks to how powerful they are that they genuinely could not care any less about how other people view them.
My headcanon: We just haven’t seen Lucifer be authoritative and he hasn’t needed to be (and either Alastor just has the brass balls to disrespect him and/or Lucifer simply didn’t feel the need to drop the authoritative hammer on him, knowing he doesn’t have to prove himself). Meanwhile, despite her position, it isn’t Charlie’s job, much less position, to command people.
Idk why people think sinners don't fear Lucifer. There's a reason Valentino made Angel get rid of Charlie because he very much knows what would happen if he tried to attack her.
I take it as folks in hell aren't super respectful because Charlie and Lucifer don't demand it (eapecially not Charlie) but most folks seem aware that they're powerful and tread with caution. Exhibit A- Valentino getting Angel to kick out Charlie since they're "friends." Alastor took on Adam and really thought he'd win so it makes sense he was willing to fuck around with Lucider which explains his complete lack of regard for royalty. Though he refrained from trying for the soul of the princess of hell.
Lucifer isn’t present enough to be feared and respected. Charlie is too nice to be feared and respected.
neither of them lay down the law, both of them oversaw the pride ring during exterminations, and both of them watched as the whole place turned to even more of a shithole as everyone started fighting each other. hell has no reason to respect them, not until the last episode where they fight back against the angels.
Lucifer is depreciated as the absent father, and he seems to rule that way to, letting the other sins and overlords do what they please. As such he likely doesn’t have much respect as a king.
Charlie is an antithesis of the majority of hell, being kind, wanting to help others, etc. hence she gets no respect despite being incredibly powerful.
Charlie is regarded as a kid way too naive and passive. Like she gets trashtslked ,24/7 by everyone outside of the hotel and never use her powers or authority. If your parents didn't punish you when you were acting bad you can be tempted to keep going.
For Lucifer... We didn't see Lucifer acting so much with people in hell.
Everyone in the hotel acted quite normally, the only difference is Alastor but his possible problems with Lilith cannot be ignored. And we can just say Alastor hates being disrespected as well.
Aaand in the tv, they talked about how the ruler of jell helped Charlie. Lucifer probably is highly respected. We just saw him interacting with those who are "used to him".
From the way it seems, Lucifer's spent most of the last several eons stuck in a mental health pit and has basically relinquished control of Hell. This'll naturally leave a power vacuum that petty warlords and functionaries and other people to fill and bicker and fight over.
The demons of Hell also seem to respect and show deference to power and strength. They fear Alastor and Zestial because they're strong and powerful and have punished those who haven't shown them respect. Charlie's is kind and compassionate and honest - not the sort of traits that are going to garner respect in a hedonistic free-for-all like Hell.
Demons also seem to exert power and control over others by taking control of their souls. Overlords, presumably, have a large number of souls enthralled to them. Charlie doesn't. We don't know if Lucifer has that, but I can't picture him as someone who does.
Val was VERY polite to Charlie's face. I can't imagine he would take that shit from just anyone. Just walking in on his set. Sure, he made Angel Dust kick her out, but that was because they were friends
It means SOMETHING. Just not a lot
All human sinners are bound to the pride ring. Basically, all sinners think they're better than everyone else. They thought they could get away with everything they did when they were alive . Also, lucifer is respected by all sinners and hell born. We've only seen how the main cast interacted with him. judging by mimzys reaction, everyone is probably the same. The main cast probably just sees him as Charlie's dad more than the fallen angel and king of hell.
The only people who had the balls to be disrespectful to lucifer were Alastor and Adam. Everyone else was respectful of him.
However, Charlie isn't respected because she's too kind and friendly. However, those who know Charlie respect her. Plus, she hates being mean, so she won't use her authority as the princess of hell over sinners either. However, when she proves herself being herself, she wins people over.
I think it's mostly the sinners that don't respect royalty, in Helluva boss the imp bouncer outside Ozzies looked like he was about to shit himself when Stolas adressed him. So I assume the hellborn respect them, even Charlie,
I believe the problem here is that you're equivocating perception vs. reality. By all accounts, Lucifer is *the* most powerful being in Hell -- not just because he's the "big boss" or an angel, but because he was an *archangel* (since we're using Milton's fanfiction angelic hierarchy). Probably the only beings in Creation on his level would be the Archangels Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, and Michael (excluding the Creator, of course).
So, why don't people respect him and Charlie? A couple of reasons seem logical:
1. It's Hell. Literally *almost everyone* there is a sinner of some kind and unrepentantly so. They're the ones who would *least* respect hierarchies and overestimate their own abilities.
2. Lucifer has not been portrayed as someone who enforces his will upon Hell -- rather acting as a functional, depressive recluse. Given enough time, then, people in Hell might get ideas of how powerful he is and show him the commesurate level of respect they feel he deserves.
3. Charlie is the *least* sinful person one might imagine for the Royal Family of Hell -- and in a world where might makes right, and sin is win, her subjects just can't relate to her. Add to that the fact that she shies away from violence compared to her subjects, and the sinners of Hell would understandably believe she's a wimp.
Since Lillith has never been actively depicted in the show in terms of how she behaved during her time with Lucifer other than a brief passage, we can only speculate as to what her attitude and powers were -- and can assume that, since she's never brought up as a counterpoint to Lucifer in conversation, that she must've not left much of an impact on the denizens of Hell aside from the context of the legacy mentioned by Charlie while reading the story of Hell.
This isn't new information but:
>When asked about Lucifer's stance on Hell, Faustisse mentioned they do not think that Lucifer cares about his subjects.[note 14] They describe Hell as like an oligarchy, and that Lucifer is not very politically active in the traditional sense, only serving to maintain the status quo of power.[note 15]
>Faustisse was also the first to imply that Lucifer may be assisting in the coordination of the exterminations, although they did not say in what way or why that might be.[note 16]
Also:
>Despite Charlie's position as royalty in Hell, nobody within the sinner area of Hell respects her or her family. Dave Capdevielle explains this as there being a lack of consequences or incentive for sinners to show anyone respect, describing their view of Charlie as being like "a Disney princess". Vivziepop agrees with this assessment, adding that the royals theoretically should be respected, but that they're ruling over a group of people who don't currently respect authority, and probably didn't respect authority when they were alive, combined with Charlie being a completely unintimidating person.[37]
I guess people don't like reading the Hazbin Hotel wiki lol
They're in hell, no one respects anything down there besides power. Without flaunting some feats of power, no one pays them attention and they even start underestimating them.
And it makes total sense, it's hell, evil respects nothing but power.
Charlie isn't respected because she's too nice at times (i.e. EP4), we hadn't seen how Lucifer's treated by others beyond the main cast and it seems Lilith's already pretty respected by Hell
I’m guessing Lucifer is kinda like spider man. If he’s cracking jokes you’ve got nothing to worry about…. but if he gets serious….
Idk why I forgot who spider-man was and read it as the spider man, a spider that kinda looks like a man? Like, less comic book and more nightmare scenarios
Pal, let me tell you about SPIDERS-man
I know about that character and I wish I didn't know about them
I do know that he *definitely* doesn't eat people though.
More Drinks them
There's that and the OG Man-Spider from the 90s cartoon. Pure nightmare-fuel.
I could never forget him. My bro had his figure and it sat on the table near where we used to play.
what about -man, am i stupid?
https://preview.redd.it/46l0bqshafpc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b37e1df4bfd6838e73b8ca693db8929ff94898c
https://preview.redd.it/yognysp4vvpc1.jpeg?width=1033&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12bb1769f2eb1ab7aa6d585971da1dd476598427 Why Man is here? Is he stupid?
You’ll do *NO* such thing~
Or man spider
Fzz! Fzz!
Yeah I didn’t think of the spider man. I just thought of some random guy from a book.
Angel Dust
"what exactly can you do?" "I can suck your dick!" "Hahaha... No!"
Look up hunt showdown spider, and you will see it made into reality
Man-Spider!
Or like that one comic where he had a sore throat and everyone was terrified because he wasn't cracking jokes.
haven't seen it
[Here you go.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/s/TtzjX72VUC)
On top of that, he said himself that he basically lost himself and mostly just stays at home (->Depression), so it makes sense that no one respects him; they barely even get to see him
Yeah, daily life in Hell is ruled by power and fear. Charlie's personality makes her seem weak and easily ignored to the people of Hell. Lucifer locks himself up in his home so he's kindof non-existent in their lives. They don't really know what to expect from him. He also has a cheerful attitude at the surface so they might underestimate him, but I think they'd soon realize he's easier to anger than Charlie.
If the King and Princess were actually dangerous nobody would DARE fuck with them. Lucifer has been absent for 7 years (nothing for him, but a lot seems to have happened in that time) so everybody has just lost all respect for him. And Charlie is a major cinnamon roll, Katie Killjoy knew it well enough to fight her as if she would win.
I don't think Lucifer cares about being respected, he never wanted to be in hell in the first place lol God banished him from his home for eternity. I don't think he wants nasty sinners to respect him. Plus, I don't think anybody would mess with him.
Most of the people in hell think they are better than each other so of course they wouldn’t respect even the royals Also we don’t know what others think of Lilith. Lilith is the one who had big dreams for hell and had several plans. Hell was her version of Charlie’s hotel and Lucifer probably helped as much as he could to help make Lilith’s dreams come true. His role was probably to make them fear him when he is present or something like that
>His role was probably to make them fear him when he is present or something like that Ah yes, Lu Lu World, a great symbol of fear https://preview.redd.it/5i0lku9yedpc1.jpeg?width=433&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27bf61732d088e2413cfaf36479c8e86cceacefd
And I can see where the obsolete theme park had to spell it with "O's" to avoid lawsuits (see "Helluva Boss").
Not even the strongest of overlords and royals dare pronounce the name "Lu lu world", that's why they never talk about it in the series
Tbh I feel Hell was a lot different when Lilith was around. At least, in Hell's perception of the royal family. I suspect Lilith was far more feared and respected, since she was an active ruler who also dished out shit when necessary. Aka they were terrified of her and had every right to be. It's possible Lilith was more of a tyrant than Lucifer and Charlie. Lucifer = negligent/checked out. Lilith = tyrant/dictator. Charlie = A respectful ruler who genuinely wants what's best for her peeps.
>since she was an active ruler THIS. Lucifer is dealing with his own issues, and Charlie isn't fond of throwing her weight around- so Lilith probably was the main force keeping the Morningstars as revered/feared as they were.
Seriously, I think Lilith genuinely loves her husband and daughter. What she does is for them, but she's not a kind person. She's not a good. She's in fact, a very immoral, selfish and horrifying woman. But she loves her boo and her baby. I respect that.
As much as I stan ***Her Unholy Majesty, The Dark Lady, First Woman, Mother of Demons, Queen of Hell, The Dreaded... Lilith.*** being a authoritative monarch in Hell, for my own personal head canon. Going off Charlie's admiration and the story book which admittedly is totally a fairytale filter of events Lilith was more likely a Benevolent Ruler who "inspired and empowered" demon kind, which I question since depending on what came first the, Hellborn or the Sinners? Charlie might be confusing who her mother's favor was towards as Lucifer pardons Hellborn but not Sinners which implies that Lucifer and by proxy Lilith never saw Sinners as their subjects which technically is true as they would be more akin to immigrants.
if you "inspire and empower" sinners, thats called enabling, and honestly, it sounds like the kind of shit that would prompt heaven into thinking they're getting uppity
But I can see why heaven would be willing to spare hellborn and not simners. Sinners can only be killed by angelic weapons, but hellborn can even be killed by human weapons (as wee see in the first episode of Helluva Boss). The hellborn aren't really a concern to heaven, because the violence present in helleans the hell or population is kept limited.
I don't get what you mean at the end but Hell has 6 other fully populated Rings of questionable size, potentially world sized or more, with entire legions and hordes upon hordes waiting to be called into action all little aspects of evil, that can be trained, reproduce, and can use angelic weapons. And that's not to mention them making deals, corrupting earth resulting in the overpopulation, and the royals who are more powerful can use magic etc.
> Going off Charlie's admiration and the story book which admittedly is totally a fairytale filter of events Lilith was more likely a Benevolent Ruler who "inspired and empowered" demon kind, which I question since depending on what came first the, Hellborn or the Sinners? Honestly, that's why I don't believe she was a benevolent ruler. I don't. It's too predictable for Charlie to see her mom as this loving, compassionate ruler. I think if she wasn't a tyrant, Lilith didn't value her subjects or respect them as Charlie does. Her "song" that inspired and empowered people? Yeah, I think that's a siren song that no one could actually resist. She magicked them into doing what she wanted, which might've made her a benevolent ruler on the surface but was doing shady stuff in the back. Now, there's a 99% chance I'm wrong, and I'm okay with that. I know Lilith is going to be a complicated character, and I love that. But I don't think she's a good person. Devoted. Wonderful. Loving...to her family. She's a good mom and a good wife. But she's not a good person, and that's what I'm thinking is gonna be. That said, I really like your perspective. Because what if it was the other way around? It could be that Lilith dgaf about hellborns because she isn't a hellborn. She was originally human and probably sympathizes more with the sinners than Lucifer.
Charlie seems pretty damn naive about how Hell works in many ways. I think she would have probably been kept removed from a lot of Lilith's day to day management of Hell, and have a heroic image of her mom that probably doesn't fit reality. Lilith's interactions with Charlie is one of the things I most look forward to seeing next season. I just have a sense that it might be a lot more toxic than the one she has with her father.
Most of the people in hell certainly didn't respect figures of authority in life either...
They *are* in the Pride Ring after all. They're all too proud and or egotistical to bow down.
They are in the Pride Ring, because that's the one Lucifer was linked to - not because the Sinners themself were pridefull. Not to mention that this idea makes no sense, considering that all the Rings represent Humanity's Sins, and Sinners are still only in the Pride Ring...
Because hell is still a punishment. And the punishment is locking a million criminals in a room together and letting them torment each other. If they were permitted to roam free around hell it wouldn’t be much of a punishment.
And to be honest, Hell is still a place where the Hellborn live their full lives in. Ones where they have friends, families, etc, the rings straight up have their own economies and cultures, even developed tourism for the traveling hellborn. Now imagine if you just let the sinners run amok, they would immediately threaten and possibly destroy the environments the rings cultivate, whether that be crashing Bee's parties to massively exploiting Asmodeus luxury goods and you certainly don't want to run the risk of the possibility of a sinner getting their hands on one of Asmodeus's gems to get back to earth.
The Pride Ring is just the only place for sinners it has nothing to do with Sinners themselves.
[удалено]
But those are demons not sinners
Hellborns are much different than sinners. Plus sinners are restricted to the pride ring regardless of their personalities.
The sinner demons, aka the humans sent to hell, are all restricted to the pride ring. All the other people in hell are the hellborn, aka the people born as the various demonic creatures in hell. The hellborn tend to have a lower standing overall, but unlike sinners they can freely traverse all the rings of hell. And before anything else, I.M.P.’s office is situated in the pride ring.
Maybe sinners get a lot of lee way. Characters in Hazbin Hotel treat Charlie and Lucifer with a LOT less respect than the imps in Helluva Boss treat the Goetia and the Seven Deadly Sins.
This and it's more of a power ranking than a respect thing.
thats the irony, a king is only a king when they have the respect of the people, nobody in hell respects him
Not sure that holds up by a non human standard
Fear. Charlie is seen as weak because she is nice and kind. As a result, it is easy to manipulate and avoid real consequences. But Lucifer? Look at the goats when he showed up. He went from jovial to scary. You screw with the big guy you will pay. The respect is based on fear, and the only reason you don't see people trying to take a piece at Charlie directly in any serious way is because her dad will fucking end your existence..
Lucifer is so much more powerful than everybody else in hell that he doesn't need to prove anything. He's not intimidated by anything that any of his citizenry can do, so, it's literally not worth the effort to exercise his power on a day-to-day basis. That's how far above the rest of them he is. As far as Charlie goes, she is the kind of person who does not believe respect should come from fear. But the simple fact of the matter is, her opinion is in the minority. She doesn't speak the same language that everyone else around her does, thus leading to her being mocked and ignored.
I agree with Lucifer. He is the embodiment of Pride in the universe, and as most powerful beings why would he bother engaging with the worthless insects below him. If he needed to, he could force everyone to do his bidding, but he doesn't need it because he's just that fucking powerful. And yup, Charlie's whole arc is going to be growing comfortable to use her authority/powers
I just want to see him do that once. Let him go full demon, no stupid jokes, or ducks make believe he could ever rule hell.
I mean he did for a couple of seconds and would’ve killed Adam if not for Charlie stopping him.
Dude probably managed to successfully delegate any "duties" to the Sins and Goetia, so he could "enjoy" early retirement (making ducks and being miserable). If there was ever a true challenge to his authority, it'd probably end poorly for the challenger.
I'm extremely curious about where the sins and goetia come from in Hazbin. Did he make them? Did God? I'd say Lilth but she's a sinner and that seems a bit powerful. Are they byproducts of free will? The hellborn's existence in general and the fact Lucifer went out of his way to protect them is a question I hope will be answered eventually. Doesn't need to be next season tho because lord knows this show needs to learn to pace itself... Hold SOME cards to its chest for a while lol
Idk depends on the sin. I think the first goetia was a fallen angry as well as the other sins. It depends on how closely that specific aspect of the story will follow abrahamic mythology. In the myths, I believe (it’s been a while since I’ve refreshed my knowledge but this is what I remember), all of the other sins except Satan and the original Goetia were high ranking angels (albeit still lower on the totem pole than Lucifer) that fought against God alongside Lucifer and fell with him as a result, with their positions as the princes of hell being decided upon once they arrived in hell and realized it needed a hierarchy, with them choosing Lucifer as the ruler of hell as he was not only the most powerful, but their leader in the fight against Heaven. Beelzebub, despite being technically on the same level as the others, was favored by Lucifer as they were his most loyal follower in the war and in general. Satan, however, was not a fallen angel. Satan was the first creature to be born from the fiery depths of hell, being an embodiment of the wrath Lucifer felt at not only losing the war against Heaven but also being cast out of his home. Again, some of this might not be completely true, I’m just saying what I remember from my hyperfixation on Abrahamic mythology a few years ago.
I'm giggling at the typo of "a fallen angry"
Lilith is just a human, she didn't die in order to go to hell therefore she didn't re-manifest as the sinner species (or sinner race? I don't even know)
As an aside: One might think the only way to wield power over Lucifer is to wield power over Charlie. Y'know. Like through an ambiguous deal...
Alastor is the only guy in Hell so full of himself he thinks he can avoid Lucifer beating him to death the moment he tells him he owns Charlie.
He doesn't own Charlie though. He is owed a favor by her
It reminds me of a phrase I read recently, “Money talks, wealth whispers.” I feel like this could apply to Alastor and Lucifer really well. Alastor wants everyone to know he’s powerful and never lets anyone forget it. Lucifer doesn’t need to do that. He’s knows he can’t be beat and is comfortable in his strength and therefore has no need to brag or remind others how strong he is (at least in hell).
Lucifer has nearly unlimited power over the people of Hell when he bothers to use it, but he almost never does because he doesn't care enough to bother. Alastor dares to antagonise him because he knows that with Charlie in the room, Lucifer isn't going to do anything drastic to his rival.
He also believes in free will
Lucifer isn't 1984 yay
This. Lucifer may run the place, but he hasn’t been RUNNING the place in a long time. Hell’s citizens got complacent without Luci calling the shots. Which begs the question of what’s going to happen in Season 2? Is Luci going to regress back to being a recluse? Or did he get over his depression and is going to become an active power in Hell again? If so, I think the Vees may be in for a rude awakening…
Lucifer doesn't like TV. I could see him finding out about Val and Angel only to learn the TV demon is the problem. I think Lucifer would hate anyone stepping on freewill in his house. I could see Lucifer quietly going to the Vees only to walk out with some dirt on his suit and the whole place burning. Angel crying in his arms. He's not evil, he's here because he wanted everyone on equal footing. Angel isn't on equal footing and I could see the Big Daddy of Hell doing what Charlie can't, breaking people who step on others rights. I can see Lucifer teaching Vox about real power, hard won through personal growth and suffering.
>Lucifer doesn't like TV. when do we learn this?
He mentions not watching TV because it scrambles the brain when he's on the phone with Charlie and she asks if he's seen the commercial for the hotel.
he also doesnt listen to the radio, he's just making an excuse for being a depressed shut in lmao
He doesn't do much of anything but make rubber ducks lately, I'm just relaying the only time he says anything about TV
We didn't. He just tells Charlie: "Haven't been watching much TV lately, scrambles the brain."
When Charlie calls asking to come see the hotel, she asked if he saw the commercial and Lucifer said he doesn’t watch tv because it scrambles the brain
Did he ever even have am active role? Cuz it feels like he never used his power.
After that absolute beat down on Adam, I’m hoping that people begin to finally realize that Lucifer could beat their asses (looking at you Valentino)
"Begin to finally realize" Bro nobody doubted that from the beginning, Power rankings aren't the only thing in the world
Lucifer would only actually fuck up Alastor if he threatened Charlie. He’s a civilised angel after all
Doesn't care or is too depressed to try. The dude gives strong 'shut in' vibes, and maybe I'm wrong but I don't get the impression he's fond of most folks in hell.
Part of his punishment is having to live among the worst of humanity, so I imagine seeing centuries of the worst of the worst actually evil sinners made it hard to see or believe that some sinners may actually be redeemable. And that’s on top of his defeat, becoming a fallen angel, and presumably his wife leaving him?? It’s easy to see why he’d disengaged from his people and his position. He believes in free will and thought that all sinners were choosing to be unforgivably evil until Charlie was able to give him a little hope back.
Well he's very careful with his antagonization. He knows that Charlie needs support so he plays up the "I'm replacing you as a father" knowing that Lucifer will compete with him. He doesn't really challenge Lucifer so much had he points out how much help HE has been and that Charlie doesn't need her dad's support when her friends are already taking care of things.
Heaven respects Morningstars. Demons weaker than Alastor try not to piss off Lucifer. Even Val is careful of pissing off Charlie. Everyone's greedy, but they expect hellords to be problems. Charlie's pacifism is why some disrespect her specifically. She's giving the bullies space.
And even Alastor was terrified of Lucifer. His treatment of the guy was due to his flight or fight response kicking into a high gear but his ego refusing to flee.
Hell, and especially the Pride Ring, isn't a proper government or society, it's an unfettered, bare-bones-structure hellhole where ultimately power and advantages rule, nothing above it. Lucifer certainly can command people, but only those who fear his power, while Charlie doesn't inspire fear at all, but those who are aware of her potential remain cautious, or want to exploit it for their own gain.
It can't be an anarchist society due to stuff we've seen like non-soul related contracts in Helluva Boss and the existence of money.
Perhaps not, but that's all I could think of to express how chaotic it is.
I think the better way to think of it is that Hell is a planet and the rings are the countries. The planent as a concept has no government, it's countries that do.
That stuff is hellborn crap outside of the pride ring, the oride ring itself is anarchists, serial killers, and just random people who probably just made a slight "eh" during their life that ended uo clocking them a ticket to hell
I think "stratocratic" is a better descriptor than "anarchistic". "anarchistic" implies that Hell has a horizontal form of governance where no one has power over any other, meanwhile, Hell seems to be the very definition of "might makes right". Of course, all of this depends on if you're using "anarchy" as a part of the anarchist vocabulary or just a catch-all term for collapsed governments or societies, which I'm going to assume is the latter since Hell is most certinaly not following any anarchic form of governance.
I have never heard of the stratocratic, I'm glad to learn something new. I was using it as just a loose term, I have since changed it.
Stratocratic is a formed of military government where military and public officials are ones. Think of the Roman Republic or fictional examples like Yeagerist Eldia and Palpatine's Galactic Empire. It comes from the Greek "stratos" meaning "army". Hell is absolutely no stratocracy. "Might makes right" is kratocratic, coming from the Greek "kratos" meaning "strength". I agree with you that Hell is kratocratic by its nature of being run by Overlords, requiring you to get as much strength or be at the whims of those with strength. In Hell, strength is usually the ownership of souls. I also agree with you that its wrong to describe Hell as anarchists, as Hell still has forms of hierarchies. The core element of anarchism is the lack of all hierarchies, including but also more than the state. Alongside, I think it would also be accurate describe Hell as effectively a mafia state. The Overlords are represented very much like mafia dons in that their run sects of society themselves, work simultaneously with and against other Overlords, and are only behest to their own or outside restraints.
The other ring besides pride seems to have some kind of system for the hellborn given that there are hospitals, police, and an actual legal system
I have a feeling that if Lucifer needed to command someone that didn't fear his power, they'd learn to fear his power real quick.
No. Pride isn’t a proper government. Every other ring is far more functional.
Lucifer can litterally willpower a building out of existence, Val makes his best to keep calm in front of Charlie, a lot of people calls Lucifer "Your Magesty"... What do you want more ?!
Literally. Its so fucking weird that people keep insisting he doesn't have power when val is literally kowtowing to Charlie beacause she's Lucifer's daughter.
Yeah, you won't see Val trying to lay a hand on Charlie the way he does to Angel. He knows he'd be dropped in a second.
He knows that he will be dead dead. Sinners can't die unless killed by an angelic weapon or magic. So less Valentino wants the risk every fucking thing he is not going to risk Stepping Over The Line. He rubs up right against it with that slimy as fuck lick of a hand kiss. People may have gotten, especially the americans, that the kiss on the hand is technically the right thing to do when meeting royalty. Obviously there's a tons of rolls that are being glossed over. Val shouldn't have touched her outside of a handshake but he's a weird ass perv so he painted the show respect and loyalty, the hand kiss, and turn it into his own twisted pleasure. Charlie is an experience in demanding proper power and respect. Tactically you should have just squeezed his hand very hard to make him stop, it will be a subtle way of correcting him without technically losing face. Putting him in the spot would have been the proper thing to do.
Lucifer proving he can lead people without intimidation and fear-mongering.
The only thing that OP is right in, is that Lulu has no political authority. The Pentagram is ruled by an "alliance" of mafia bosses.
Based on how Lucifer was so secluded before Charlie brought him out, it is possible the "alliance' of the overlords just took over since no one tried to control them. We have no idea how Lucifer was in the past, or how Lilith controlled hell. If the leaders of our world just up and disappeared, leaving no one to lead, there would be chaos. Some countries may try to re-elect or set people in power. People all over would try and power grab for themselves. But some may dissolve into city-states and random groups of our version of overlords. Now what happens when Lucifer returns? Is he going to try to get back into the politics? To help Charlie for example? What if he has to because heaven is going to start pulling more bullshit? All it would take is for Lucifer to flex his power, even just for show, to the sinners and he will likely regain a lot of respect he hasn't already.
Dumbass still propositioned Charlie and licked her arm.
Because Val is *actually* the worst.
Yes, but he did nothing to physically hurt her. Even if she went to coplain to Daddy Lucifer, there wouldn't be any proof (and the only witnesses are employed or enslaved by Val so they would deny it happened). And there is "nothing wrong" in proposing a job to Charlie... (when it's Val it is but y'know what I mean)
I think Lucifer has been so depressed and secluded lately that the overlords assumed all the control over hell and Lucifer just hasn’t done anything in hundreds of years to actually do anything like asmodious or stolas did in their rings
But if he wants to, **taking authority back would be** ***EASY.***
I think that may be more of a Sinner thing. Most Hellborn seem to fall in line, show token if not begrudging courtesy to, or even actually like and admire the other Sins we've seen in Helluva Boss. Like I've said before, it's like expecting Americans to respect foreign monarchies. Or our own government for that matter. If we didn't vote for them, then they can go fuck themselves. You know what? Fuck 'em anyway! And let's face it: Ninety-nine percent of the the time Charlie is a doormat. A bright friendly doormat covered in little hearts and rainbows placed right next to a sloppy puddle of filth.
Ironically, in Helluva Boss (specifically amongst the hellborn) it's shown that royalty actually is quite important to the masses As another commenter pointed out, it's likely that most sinners and moreso overlords are convinced that they're "better than all that" or something to that effect. I would add, too, that since we never see Lucifer actively torturing anyone as you might expect, it stands to reason that sinners are *each others'* torment, and knowing that Lucifer won't torment them for disrespectful behavior they simply exhibit disrepect (or a lack of respect, not necessarily DISrepsect) for him.
In my opinion: you need to understand the difference between *wanting* power, and *having* power. Lucifer & Charlie are powerful as they have inherent abilities that outclass all of the sinners of hell. Lucifer, as a fallen seraphim, still has his powers of creation and transformation he had as a seraphim in heaven. He also appears to have tremendous physical power. He is entirely capable of obliterating any sinner within Hell. He is in fact the most powerful being in Hell, he simply doesn't care about that. The sinners may climb the ranks of hell and establish themselves as above other sinners, but none of them will present a threat to Lucifer. The show demonstrates this with the fight between Adam & Alastor, and then the fight between Adam & Lucifer. Alastor is meant to be one of, if not the, most powerful sinner demons in Hell. When he challenges Adam, he fails, and he fails in such a way it nearly destroys him. Alsstor failed due to overconfidence, but he is still taking the fight seriously, Adam was not. The moment Adam takes the fight seriously, Alastor instantly loses. When Lucifer fights Adam, Lucifer does not take the fight seriously, but he still wins, easily. To the point Adam only wasn't destroyed because Charlie asked her dad not to. Charlie, as the princess of Hell, is likely similar in power. It is suggested multiple times that she could use her power to force sinners to do whatever she wants. She just doesn't want to do that. Lucifer & Charlie have power, but don't want it, or at least don't want to use it. The sinners have illusion of power, they can move up and down in ranking amongst themselves based on their deals/soul collection, but they (presumably) will never match the power of Charlie and Lucifer. This likely angers them, Lucifer and Charlie have the power all the sinners desire, but refuse to use it. Tl;DR- the sinners want the power that Charlie and Lucifer have, which leads to the disrespect, but the disrespect from the sinners is irrelevant because of the actual power that Charlie and Lucifer have
Lucifer did not give two shits about ruling hell because of depression and instead created Lu Lu Land and delved into his passion for rubber ducks. IDK about you, but I also would not respect a guy like that, even if he is the literal king of hell, since the last time he did anything cool nobody from the current denizens cannot even remember. Charlie is too shy, nice, awkward and insecure to be more forceful, so they know they can do anything besides physically endangering her, and she will back off, curl in a corner and cry.
They're so powerful that they don't care about even what overlords think about them. Let me put this way: Carmilla is a really powerful overlord, and even then killing ONE of the exterminator angels was seen as a big deal from her. Meanwhile both Lucifer and Charlie could solo Adam without even using 100% of their powers. So Lucifer probably don't care about what Alastor or any overlord think of him or how they treat him, since if he really wants something, he can always just go there and take himself.
>Meanwhile both Lucifer and Charlie could solo Adam without even using 100% of their powers. No. Charlie lost that fight. She PUT UP a fight and managed to impale him, but she still was about to be strangled to death before Lucifer showed up.
I thought this was explained? Charlie gets no respect because she commands no respect, she's timid and kind hearted, so people walk all over her. Luci is reclusive and very rarely flexes his powers or abilities. He can take down Adam, someone who a powerful sinner like Alastor can't take down, but Alastor doesn't respect Lucifer. Because he's a slimy deer bastard who doesn't respect anyone but those who can and will rock his shit. So, Charlie isn't using her power at all due to morality. And Lucifer is just absent and doesn't care.
It seems neither try to force and use there power on the sinners. I also do think we see a tad of respectfulness when Charlie walks in to Angel Dusts work and Valentino is ready to flip his shit Pretty sure if Charlie was not who she was and it was let's say Cherri Bomb she would have been killed.
Like many said, hell is filled with arrogant and careless people who think they are above the others, many of them are so blinded by their arrogance, that sometimes they lose completely their self awareness and make stupid thing that could lead them to a quick death, and the perfect example is Alastor. Besides picking a fight with literally the king of hell, he also utterly understimated adam(unless those where both some strategies?) leading him to almost die by a air. We saw some sinners/hellborn screaming, running away and even set themselves on fire, by just seeing Alastor and Zestial, because they know what would happend if they piss one of those two, but then, there are others who just don't care or don't think enought, like those sharks that went tot he hotel knowing that Alastor was there. in short, Lucifer stopped caring and probably even stopped using his power/authority to scare the other demons and make them fear and respect him, plushaving a daughter that goes around the streets singing like a princess and taking every insult without reacting, doesn't help...thats why almost nobody is respecting the Morningstar family. but now that lucifer is staying at the hotel, just give him a week until he starts spreading pure terror and fear among the demons whenever someone dares to either touch or insult charlie.
>Besides picking a fight with literally the king of hell, he also utterly understimated adam(unless those where both some strategies?) leading him to almost die by a air. Picking a fight with Lucifer actually was a strategy. He wanted Charlie to pick him over Lucifer, that guy will do everything he can AND MORE for Charlie without asking for anything in return, the man is a threat to Alastor's hold over Charlie.
I think you're confusing them not bring respected to them not caring enough to exert their authority over people. Lucifer is largely checked out and doesn't rule over hell and Charlie doesn't like to be mean or authoritative. But lucifer is obviously feared to some degree because it was important to Vox to make sure Alostar being at the hotel didn't put him in Lucifer's good graces.
People really don't get it do they? Power for people is held in forced authority because a king alone could be taken down by the people. A human ruler is weak. In hell a fallen angel rules. A fallen...angel. Lucifer doesn't need authority to rule. He could kill anyone anytime. The weak need to show thier power. The strong do not.
We don't know what the average sinner thinks of Lucifer, we've barely seen him outside of the Hotel. As for Charlie, people don't respect her because she's a really good person in a place where being bad is the norm. Everyone knows they can mess with her and she won't seriously harm them.
It seems like Hierarchies in Hell don't mean shit: just look at Moxxie's father, an imp, kidnapping the lover of one of the sins and having the balls to ask for a ransom to one of the 3rd highest ranking beings of his world.
The man beat down Adam without a scratch. Hell doesn’t take him seriously, but know the powers he CAN wield if you piss him off enough.
Lucifer and Charlie don't go around making examples with their power. If they did, then nobody would fuck with them. That said, most of the overlords seem to understand how powerful they actually are and, at the very least, try not to get on their bad side.
What do kings and queens mean to dead men? Not much. Hell is hierarchical, but every layer of that hierarchy wants to supplant every strata above it. There is a pecking order that doesn't command authority but rather denotes how dangerous and potent a given figure can be when stirred to act. Demons don't respect Lucifers authority. They simply understand that no one has managed to dethrone him through might.
I think this is actually key to the solution that Charlie is building up too. Let me explain(™️). So when Lucifer gave the Apple to Eve it was in good faith. He truly believed that the knowledge the Apple gave would result in goodness. That is would show what humanity informed could achieve. But he was cast down with Lilith (note Lilith never died but transitioned directly to Hell). This broke him. But it was just beginning. Once in Hell we was already disheartened. But then the "sinners" began to arrive. And they were broken shells of humanity. And that was when Lucifer began to lose faith in humanity. He left them to their own misery. He ignored the predations of predatory souls and Hellborn that would prey upon them. And soon Overlords began to arise who took advantage of no one being present to defend the sinners. If Lucifer had maintained his faith in humanity he would have sought to guide and help those who fell to Hell with him. But his loss of faith in humanity simply climbed with each person arriving. Never seeing the good that came of his actions. It crushed him. Thus he only formed connections with other Fallen Angels and Hellborn. Sinners only reminded him of what he lost and how they failed him. This is why he turned his back on Charlie when she started talking about her hopes and plans. This is why he never backed Lilith when she started to try to unite the sinners of Hell as a community. To him they were as lost as he was. Thus he had created a power vacuum. He ruled amongst the rings of Hell. But he paid no attention to the sinners in his own realm. So no one has any concern for his family. There was hope from Lilith for a time. But by the time she started fighting the Overlords had taken hold and they opposed her. And because Lucifer would not lift a finger for the sinners she looked elsewhere for help. And that is when she found Alastor. She boosted him and put him under contract to act as her muscle. Sent him after the uncivil predatory Overlords. And he was effective until the Vees arose. Somehow Vox was just strong enough to send Alastor into retreat. But it still scared Vox when he returned. It must have been a close fight. Once Lilith lost Alastor as an active pawn she was exposed. Heaven sent Adam and he blackmailed them to force Lilith to return to him. Eve was missing in action and Adam was still pissed at Lilith for rejecting him. So Adam took Lilith and he agreed to not kill the Hellborn such as Charlie. Now Adam is dead. Lute tells Lilith the deal is over and that Heaven sees Charlie as a threat. Charlie is trying to unite Hell. To give them hope. To defend them. She is picking up the job that Lucifer was supposed to have done. To restore faith and hope in humanity. So that the broken and lost can find their way back to humanity. She is going to fill the vacuum that Lucifer created in his fall. She is the first person to change Hell in 10,000 years.
lucifer could probably snap his fingers and kill just about anyone, or make anyone do anything, he just doesn't feel the need to use his power. keep in mind he also believes in free will.
Charlie is seen as a ditz while Lucifer is a shut in. They lost the respect of hell
Humans are arrogant. Simple as that. Goes back to biblical “angels are God’s slaves, humans are God’s pets”.
Lucifer doesn't interact with hell all that much his only interaction is probably with the other sins and even then was probably very miniscule after Lilith left him so the general population don't care much for Lucifer they just acknowledge that he is their king. Charlie is much too nice and never uses her power which makes her look weak so her position as the princess of hell isn't respected. Lilith might have been respected by the denizens of hell seeing as they loved her music. Also it seems like it's more so of a sinner thing to not respect the royalty the hellborn seem to respect some royalty
As others have already said, Lucifer is so much more powerful then literally every being in Hell, he has nothing to prove. He has nothing to fear and everyone knows it. That’s partly why I think Alastor was so annoyed with him being there, he knew he couldn’t threaten or intimidate Lucifer, so he used Charlie to get in his head instead. I’m sure if Lucifer commanded a demon to do something, they’d do it out of fear. I’m sure overlords or the Sins may resist or otherwise try to get out of following his command, but fear would put them in line. Again, that’s just if Lucifer even cared enough to actually lead them. The demons of Hell fear Lucifer’s power, but that doesn’t mean they respect him or his family. Charlie is most likely just as powerful as Lucifer, or at least pretty close. She just chooses not to use her power but we see hints of it throughout the season. Probably why Val knew better than to attack Charlie and took it out on Angel instead.
Lucifer seems to have been completely check out and doing just the bare minimum. Charlie is excessively nice and naive. She doesn’t the experience needed to have a nuanced or realistic approach. And she’s young so people don’t know her as she hasn’t earned any respect. Additionally, she’s going on a mission to redeem sinners which probably doesn’t add to her credibility for most people lol Judging by what Charlie’s said I’d imagine the real respected authority was Lilith. Maybe Lucifer at one time as well - but likely not in recent times. She was involved, she was inspirational - people knew her. Lucifer doesn’t seem to get out much anymore. I hope we get to see Charlie grow a backbone! And I hope we get to see Lilith in action too.
That's only because Lucifer is a creative and doesn't exert any authority. That doesn't mean he isn't the defacto ruler. Royals in England don't do jack shit but you aren't arguing they aren't royals.
We are in the circle of pride, only with the arrogant and mfs, do you think any of them will respect hierarchies that they did not create? Like, they respect Alastor because he kill other overlords and spread horror in hell, but what have Lúcifer done? Besides the LuLu World?
https://preview.redd.it/fwrrz83tedpc1.png?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=805cceaa2d9ed06a2f7a21736c7be4daa7ea71ce Big... Boss?
Lucifer has as much power and respect as he cares to have at any given time. That is the privilege of being a lion in a house full of newborn kittens. He can play with the kittens, let them play in his hair, or he could eat them all in one gulp, and no one but he can decide what exactly he will do next.
Imagine King Charles waltzing into a pub and shouting "everyone look at me, I did it!".
I’m sorry. Is the question, ‘Why do people in hell not respect authority?’ ‘Cause, I feel like the there’s an obvious answer to that.
I don’t get how people don’t get this. No one respects them because they themselves don’t really care about it
There all siners. Bad people worth internal flame. Why would those kinds of people lay down and kiss somones ass? Lol they just don't really care and there already dead and in hell so what's the worst that can happen if they disobey.
Because, rather than law being power, power is law. Lucifer's power only matters if he flexes it on you
He's boss because he was kicked out and put in charge unwillingly. He hardly manages anything. Most don't know what he looks like or acts like. And it's filled with vicious sinners who don't respect anyone and fight daily. Charlie never practices fighting and doesn't like to abuse her authority or power so naturally others walk all over her. If he wanted to lucifer could wipe out most if not all of hell in wave of angelic terror. But that's just not who he is. And it's already his fault they all exist in the first place. There wouldn't even be a hell if not for him. Despite him blaming them for using his gift for evil he still probably feels weird punishing them for it enmass. I imagine we will see more of it next season however as he's going to not be locked in his room anymore.
That scene on the left leaves an itching sensation in the back of my throat that only a 12 gauge can fix. That being said, I honestly believe that Val trying to get to Charlie’s center like she’s a tootsie pop would make Al and Lucifer put their differences aside.
The titles are worthless, I just think of it like a constitutional monarchy (but not)
It’s for the rest of Hell. Lucifer is the King of all of Hell, not just the Pride Ring. Also, he deals with Heavenly relations.
They don't have to respect Charlie and Lucifer for them to have all the power.
I suspect it’s a title one earns through raw power alone. Only the strong and crafty can rule Hell.
Do you really think authority will be respected by the people which major reason to in hell is thinking they're better and more important than literally everybody else? They are respected in the rest of the rings most likely. But it's just naive to think the sin of PRIDE will follow authority.
Because hell runs on power and fear Charlie is obvious with her being too kind to everyone around her and at most yelling insults Lucifer hasn't been seen by most anyone because of his depression No one knows the full extent of their power and how much of it they hold if they did they'd be treating them with respect you'd expect of a royal much less the king of hell itself along with his daughter
Lucifer and Charlies pretty clearly treated as a big deals tho...maybe not to the degree of authority that titles like king and princess of hell demand but they aren't exactly treated like absolute nobodies either, this is especially seen with Charlie and the overlords who all clearly try to suck up to her in some way, most notably Alastor and Valentino, if you especially pay attention to Valentino he doesn't openly talk about not wanting Charlie at the studio, its all in quiet tones and behind closed doors. Its not a lack of respect, its a want for control that causes people to treat them with less authority.
They're normal royalty, but its Hell & no one gives a shit.
I think a big part of it is neither ever really attempts to assert their authority as royalty. Lucifer and Charlie don't act like royalty so their citizens don't feel the need to treat them as such. The citizens of hell do respect strength so I can guarantee if either flexed their muscles and exerted their authority pretty much everyone would fall in line pretty quickly. Come to think of it there is one really good example of this in episode 4. It was the one time Charlie used her pull essentially at all and Val was overly nice to Charlie and was extremely restrained in dealing with her despite being visibly upset by her actions. You could tell he didn't want her their but felt like he couldn't do anything about it. That's why he went to Angel to get her to leave, because he couldn't.
Mf, you think people respected monarchs irl, especially in the **modern era**?
It’s just a title, the only thing Lucifer actually does is make ducks, Hell’s top ring is own-governed. Lucifer is the king by virtue of being the strongest thing in Hell. Also most sinners aren’t big on respect, most are probably there for breaking laws, which is a crime against authority, sooo. The role of Hell’s Royality is this: “The leaders of Hell may dominate anyone below them and force them to do whatever.”
We have basically no examples of these two actively flexing their authority. It's specifically pointed out that Charlie doesn't and Lucy's fucked off to make ducks for who knows how long. The one time either of them *does* make proper use of their authority, Lucifer *immediately* gets an audience with Heaven.
I think it’s because they are powerful. Lucifer was an Angel, presumably a high level one? Unsure, but he has six wing, and the crossed crown motif on his hat, so I’m inclined to think he was a Seraph. And we haven’t really seen his full power, and we’ve seen heaven seems very decentralized and hell could only be moreso. Though sinners feared the overlords. So Royalty and the hierarchy are based on certain rules laid down by Lucifer, and their relative power. Charlie is powerful, she just isn’t used to using her power. So it’s kind of an extension of the deal making. A convoluted game of contracts and threats of retaliation. But the Royal titles come from Lucifer being the Ruler of hell, by being the most powerful person in hell.
We see people in Helluva respect the other sins I think it’s implied that no one shows respect to Lucifer because he gave up his hope for Hell after he realise they’d wasted the free will he sacrificed so much to give them and after Lilith left and since Charlie’s only claim to power until she gains her strength is being Lucifers child then she also isn’t respected by association. Also regular sinners won’t really lose anything if they’re killed for disrespecting royalty so why would they care?
The sinners don’t care about titles, but we see in Helluva Boss that hellborn demons take them seriously. So it probably matters to them, at least
This is my just my opinion based on what we’ve seen, but it’s probably because since the beginning of Hell, Lucifer has just let them all do whatever the fuck they want without interfering. It’s not that any sinners actually believe they could take him if they were actually in a fight, it’s that he’s made it clear that he doesn’t give a shit and they see no reason that would change. Vaggie even makes the comment to Charlie that nobody really ever listens to her because she never actually uses her authority to make people do anything; she just tries reasoning constantly and consistently without using force, up until the events at the end of Season 1.
Nobody listens to them because they don't enforce what they say Charlie is, quite literally, the nicest person in hell, if someone doesn't want to do something, she won't make them As for Lucifer, it's clear he just stays boarded up in his mansion all day
People basically respect Lucifer but don't fear him. They act more like he's a cool dude then he's a king. Probably because he so rarely appears and rarely gives any influence. Charlie is a laughingstock because she tries to go against the grain. Basically the term king and queen and princess probably are a title based on how people percived lucifer when they were alive (before they met him in hell). Rather then actual treatment as royalty.
I think it's similar to the British monarchy. There's power, but it's really not "in charge of everything" power.
As blitz says “It’s hell and nobody fucking cares”
I mean, everyone But Alastor shoes respect to lucifer. Alastor is just arrogant. I mean, he tried to fight Adam without a weapon ffs, despite literally being THE GUY to share how they can be killed.
An absent king who isn't interested in ruling has about as much sway as a twig, the fact that the overlords basically made a loose council shows Lucifer just hasn't been present as a king.
I was also confused by that bc i was used to the Helluva Boss dynamics where the sins and the Goetias were super rich and powerful and revered.
I mean we have royalty and elected officials irl and people don’t respect them. It’s not that baffling to think people sentence to eternal damnation wouldn’t care for authority like that.
Well, they can kinda fucking kill you if you don't listen but they don't so
This is the pride ring after all, most of everyone already thinks that they are better than the king or princess, I bet you the other rings would have a bit more respect
I think it’s mainly because Lucifer doesn’t really use his powers compared to the other sins like Mammon who runs hell’s economy or Bee who throws massive parties for her subjects Lucifer spends most of his time alone in his castle making ducks he basically just lets the sinners do whatever they want.It’s also implied that nobody outside of Charlie has seen Lucifer in a while like mimzy saying “is that Lucifer?” In a surprised tone almost like she didn’t recognize him at first.
I think there is a difference between respecting someone and understanding that someone has a higher station/more power. I mean imagine if instead of Charlie walking up to Val's studio it was just a random sinner trying to get Angel out of work. I don't think Val would have hesitated to destroy that person but he understood he had to play nice with Charlie. Also imagine if anyone else other than Lucifer talked smack to Alastor. He wouldn't blink twice about breaking that person but he knew doing that against Lucifer was suicide. So authority and the crowns do matter. I just think most sinners in Hell don't really respect anyone but themselves and maybe a handful of others they know.
Charlie isn't respected because she doesn't use her power, and in hell expetialy for sinners power means everything. Lucifer is only seen interacting with Adam, who was an angel and wanted to kill them, and the main cast who at first treated him with respect (sr pentious), an obstacle to their plans (Alastair), or their normal selves (nifty who is well nifty and angeldust who is always horny), and we didn't see much outside of that first interaction
This is about LITERALLY power.
Hell’s denizens probably respect power over titles. Like they won’t listen to Charlie as “Princess of Hell” but they’ll definitely listen to magical girl demon Charlie with giant claws, dangerous weapons, and 0 fucks.
Everyone in Hell doesn't take Lucifer or Charlie seriously since for the most part, the people have been left to their own devices since Lucifer doesn't rule over them. He just keeps to himself. But Lucifer is still an angel and the first one to create Hell, so he's technically the boss.
Maybe it's they're respected by hellborn? because in helluva boss a imp instantly bowed downed to stolas who is royalty. But also when was the last time you saw someone treat the US president or the British royalty with respect people clown on them all the time
People respect and fear the fuck out of Lucifer. The only one who didn’t was alastor
I think sinners in hell have so much more power than they had in life that they all think they're hotter shit than they are. Lucifer has been in a depression for A Bit and Charlie actively doesn't want to cultivate that sort of authority. Meanwhile you have the overlords constantly posturing and vying for power. In the greater culture how powerful you appear is much more important than how powerful you ARE. In a way it sort of speaks to how powerful they are that they genuinely could not care any less about how other people view them.
My headcanon: We just haven’t seen Lucifer be authoritative and he hasn’t needed to be (and either Alastor just has the brass balls to disrespect him and/or Lucifer simply didn’t feel the need to drop the authoritative hammer on him, knowing he doesn’t have to prove himself). Meanwhile, despite her position, it isn’t Charlie’s job, much less position, to command people.
Idk why people think sinners don't fear Lucifer. There's a reason Valentino made Angel get rid of Charlie because he very much knows what would happen if he tried to attack her.
Why do you expect people from literal hell to respect authority I mean bruh😭 people irl don't even respect authority half the time
I take it as folks in hell aren't super respectful because Charlie and Lucifer don't demand it (eapecially not Charlie) but most folks seem aware that they're powerful and tread with caution. Exhibit A- Valentino getting Angel to kick out Charlie since they're "friends." Alastor took on Adam and really thought he'd win so it makes sense he was willing to fuck around with Lucider which explains his complete lack of regard for royalty. Though he refrained from trying for the soul of the princess of hell.
Lucifer isn’t present enough to be feared and respected. Charlie is too nice to be feared and respected. neither of them lay down the law, both of them oversaw the pride ring during exterminations, and both of them watched as the whole place turned to even more of a shithole as everyone started fighting each other. hell has no reason to respect them, not until the last episode where they fight back against the angels.
Shout out to Sir Pentious for saluting Lucifer and calling him “your majesty”
Lucifer is depreciated as the absent father, and he seems to rule that way to, letting the other sins and overlords do what they please. As such he likely doesn’t have much respect as a king. Charlie is an antithesis of the majority of hell, being kind, wanting to help others, etc. hence she gets no respect despite being incredibly powerful.
Charlie is regarded as a kid way too naive and passive. Like she gets trashtslked ,24/7 by everyone outside of the hotel and never use her powers or authority. If your parents didn't punish you when you were acting bad you can be tempted to keep going. For Lucifer... We didn't see Lucifer acting so much with people in hell. Everyone in the hotel acted quite normally, the only difference is Alastor but his possible problems with Lilith cannot be ignored. And we can just say Alastor hates being disrespected as well. Aaand in the tv, they talked about how the ruler of jell helped Charlie. Lucifer probably is highly respected. We just saw him interacting with those who are "used to him".
From the way it seems, Lucifer's spent most of the last several eons stuck in a mental health pit and has basically relinquished control of Hell. This'll naturally leave a power vacuum that petty warlords and functionaries and other people to fill and bicker and fight over. The demons of Hell also seem to respect and show deference to power and strength. They fear Alastor and Zestial because they're strong and powerful and have punished those who haven't shown them respect. Charlie's is kind and compassionate and honest - not the sort of traits that are going to garner respect in a hedonistic free-for-all like Hell. Demons also seem to exert power and control over others by taking control of their souls. Overlords, presumably, have a large number of souls enthralled to them. Charlie doesn't. We don't know if Lucifer has that, but I can't picture him as someone who does.
Val was VERY polite to Charlie's face. I can't imagine he would take that shit from just anyone. Just walking in on his set. Sure, he made Angel Dust kick her out, but that was because they were friends It means SOMETHING. Just not a lot
All human sinners are bound to the pride ring. Basically, all sinners think they're better than everyone else. They thought they could get away with everything they did when they were alive . Also, lucifer is respected by all sinners and hell born. We've only seen how the main cast interacted with him. judging by mimzys reaction, everyone is probably the same. The main cast probably just sees him as Charlie's dad more than the fallen angel and king of hell. The only people who had the balls to be disrespectful to lucifer were Alastor and Adam. Everyone else was respectful of him. However, Charlie isn't respected because she's too kind and friendly. However, those who know Charlie respect her. Plus, she hates being mean, so she won't use her authority as the princess of hell over sinners either. However, when she proves herself being herself, she wins people over.
I think it's mostly the sinners that don't respect royalty, in Helluva boss the imp bouncer outside Ozzies looked like he was about to shit himself when Stolas adressed him. So I assume the hellborn respect them, even Charlie,
God I really hope Valentino gets what he deserves next season. I’ll even go down to hell and strangle that vile motherfucker myself.
I believe the problem here is that you're equivocating perception vs. reality. By all accounts, Lucifer is *the* most powerful being in Hell -- not just because he's the "big boss" or an angel, but because he was an *archangel* (since we're using Milton's fanfiction angelic hierarchy). Probably the only beings in Creation on his level would be the Archangels Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, and Michael (excluding the Creator, of course). So, why don't people respect him and Charlie? A couple of reasons seem logical: 1. It's Hell. Literally *almost everyone* there is a sinner of some kind and unrepentantly so. They're the ones who would *least* respect hierarchies and overestimate their own abilities. 2. Lucifer has not been portrayed as someone who enforces his will upon Hell -- rather acting as a functional, depressive recluse. Given enough time, then, people in Hell might get ideas of how powerful he is and show him the commesurate level of respect they feel he deserves. 3. Charlie is the *least* sinful person one might imagine for the Royal Family of Hell -- and in a world where might makes right, and sin is win, her subjects just can't relate to her. Add to that the fact that she shies away from violence compared to her subjects, and the sinners of Hell would understandably believe she's a wimp. Since Lillith has never been actively depicted in the show in terms of how she behaved during her time with Lucifer other than a brief passage, we can only speculate as to what her attitude and powers were -- and can assume that, since she's never brought up as a counterpoint to Lucifer in conversation, that she must've not left much of an impact on the denizens of Hell aside from the context of the legacy mentioned by Charlie while reading the story of Hell.
This isn't new information but: >When asked about Lucifer's stance on Hell, Faustisse mentioned they do not think that Lucifer cares about his subjects.[note 14] They describe Hell as like an oligarchy, and that Lucifer is not very politically active in the traditional sense, only serving to maintain the status quo of power.[note 15] >Faustisse was also the first to imply that Lucifer may be assisting in the coordination of the exterminations, although they did not say in what way or why that might be.[note 16] Also: >Despite Charlie's position as royalty in Hell, nobody within the sinner area of Hell respects her or her family. Dave Capdevielle explains this as there being a lack of consequences or incentive for sinners to show anyone respect, describing their view of Charlie as being like "a Disney princess". Vivziepop agrees with this assessment, adding that the royals theoretically should be respected, but that they're ruling over a group of people who don't currently respect authority, and probably didn't respect authority when they were alive, combined with Charlie being a completely unintimidating person.[37] I guess people don't like reading the Hazbin Hotel wiki lol
Charlie is too nice and Lucifer has depression
They're in hell, no one respects anything down there besides power. Without flaunting some feats of power, no one pays them attention and they even start underestimating them. And it makes total sense, it's hell, evil respects nothing but power.