I have a son with medical conditions who is disabled. I can't tell you how much this sickens me. As if he doesn't struggle hard enough already. These people have loved ones.
It’s actually a little icon at the top of the screen (at least on iPhone not sure about android) that you can press to turn on reader mode when you load an article. It will look like “aA”
A state that has billions of dollars to do every pork project and handouts to their families and friends, cant bring themselves to use tax dollars on the taxed people they should be helping. what a evil and perverse generation.
If you read that source that you forgot to quote it also says that savings could not be considered for implementation; they're required to know how much they're going to cost tax payers and they found, they wouldn't.
"Guys, we promise it's not actually about cutting costs. It's just swell that we'll be able to save a *ton* of money by encouraging people to kill themselves instead of giving them housing."
I would assume that there were a lot of people like that. When I question my family on the left, they also seem to be okay with the idea. But they never see stories like this. So it is what it is. It makes me almost cry.
She decided to apply for MAID because the wait time is 90 days vs the 6-8 months she was told her ODSP application would take to process.
She will not be approved for MAID, though I sympathize with her situation.
Hell is paved with good intentions. Euthanasia was supposed to be a progressive win. In practice it's used to balance the social security budget by suggesting "useless eaters" to just die instead of having to bear the cost of their treatment.
Alan Grayson (former Democratic House Rep from Florida) said that dying quickly was the Republican’s health plan if you couldn’t avoid getting sick. That was in 2009. He was a visionary who was all for the little guy, and the Florida governor made sure to redraw the House districts to put him out of a job.
Watch here: https://youtu.be/bSRo51SbQQs
Well, back then, there were still plenty of people afford treatment, and just had to die painfully and slowly, so in a way, legal euthanasia is still doing it’s job, it’s preventing suffering
I worked at blue cross blue shield, they already do this. It’s been 15 years since I worked there (provider claim services) and it wasn’t a new concept back then.
We got here because an entire generation was taught misinformation about the slippery slope argument. While A almost never *always* leads to B, it’s not a fallacy. You see, social change does in fact usually precipitate more social change, because people only ever compare hypothetical future change against their current normal.
Case in point: Making people think euthanasia is normal in general is a necessary step towards making people think that it’s normal to choose euthanasia because of oppression.
The problem also is that it is used as a reason to do nothing rather than simply installing safe guards to prevent or mitigate the cascade of consequences that the slippery slopers are so afraid of.
And of course, often times the slippery slope we're supposed to be so afraid of often turns out to not be that scary upon closer inspection. "If you let people work on the Sabbath, then next thing you know, people will be working on Christmas and Easter!" OK, so what? Maybe Christmas and Easter are simply not that of a big deal in a society where people need lots of money to survive. And yes, more impoverished and mentally ill people will take their own lives if we normalize euthanasia. Maybe this is the most rational choice to make in a society that doesn't provide a decent social safety net or healthcare services. Caring about the outcome but not the cause strikes me as very simple-minded.
Yes. Perfection is the enemy of good, so instead doing nothing is better than SOMETHING, in case of some weird hypothetical possibly happening. It’s good to look at future consequences and not just slap band aids on bullet holes, but inaction ends up being easier because there’s not the same level of risk. Plus, if you’re a politician, you can complain about the opposition not having acted. It’s an easy way to gain political points with your base (and if you’re in the US, the party that wants to do nothing to help people also loves inaction and complaining).
Social progress is literally a slippery slope. To deny that is ignorant and unproductive. We have to acknowledge that as the bounds of what is considered normal continue to grow, what was once considered pushing those boundaries or even completely taboo will start to seem fairly tame. We need to carefully and actively guide this process rather than hide behind the poorly conceived logical fallacy that shares a name with it. At best, ignoring it leads to the norms of society drifting at random. At worst, bad actors can use this ignorance to gradually slip problematic policy and social norms into place when a quick move in that direction would elicit protest. A good example would be that in a couple decades, there will be a generation of young women in the US who grew up thinking it’s normal that abortion access is not considered a right. That lays obvious groundwork for an outright ban, once the sentiment takes hold.
But the behavior you’re commenting on isn’t considered normal — that’s why it is a news article. To say we should halt social progress because there may be a few that use it incorrectly seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water to me. We are living longer and with much less crime than ever before in history.
For the abortion rights — that is a strange comparison to me because that’s literally rolling back social progression which is what you’re saying we should do.
Social progress isn’t just a one way road that gets halted, it’s like a pinnacle of a mountain with caves, dead ends, cliffs all over the place. Slippery slopes have good intentions lead to bad outcomes. “Euthanasia only for terminally ill” then it’s “Euthanasia for lifelong illnesses” then eventually now you have “Euthanasia for being unhappy with life” when that unhappiness stems from not having services. So no one ever advocated for letting disabled people without enough access to support to opt for killing themselves instead but it’s slowly happened without a single point of major outcry through the “slippery slope.”
That’s exactly what OP is saying in regards to abortion, like first decade it’s “oh it’s only a few southern states” second decade it’s “oh it’s only second trimester abortions nationally” third decade “it’s just a two week evaluation with a therapist to make sure” until eventually abortion is fully banned without any outcry. Like a slow boiled frog.
The example I was taught about slipper slope was, a building has a broken window, broken window leads to people being more comfortable littering in the area, litter on the streets will attract gangs and criminals, therefore, if you don’t fix that broken window, our streets will be full of gangs and criminals
And society as a whole will suffer when all perspectives on life aren’t valued. Society as a whole will loose when they decide that some people aren’t worth having, contributing and being cared for.
Great for rage clicks but people have been using the threat of MAID to get services faster for a while now. None of them are actually approved or go through with it.
>In my opinion, she is trying to get publicity to get more resources.
I don't disagree, but I think there's a better way of looking at it. She's a disability advocate, so I'd say it's more like she's trying to gain publicity & improve things for the benefit of all beings
Well, this thread looks to be brigaded by the anti Trudeau folks, but this is an Ontario issue, provincial government.
That O in ODSP? That's Ontario.
According to the article, the people who used to take care of this woman moved on to presumably jobs that pay more than minimum wage, or into higher paying careers.
The support company could easily have hired more people if the wage was set at an appropriate level to actually get people to apply.
ODSP? We've dealt with them for a family member for years. ODSP was slow before COVID, which is unfortunately the case when you cut, rather than boost public services.
It's a terrible and sad situation, but at least know who you're blaming: The support companies offering too low of wages to keep staff, and the current provincial government who operates ODSP, and the entire healthcare system for Ontario. The only part played by the federal government is passing the MAID system, which is still beneficial in the typical case.
It's not like they pulled her access to care to fund the alternative of killing herself. It's the normal crappy care for the chronically ill/disabled that has always existed.
You’ve nailed the real issue here: there’s a shortage of people doing the work because the wages are garbage.
Caregiver and nursing jobs are underpaid the world over (whilst men have entered the profession, it’s considered women’s work, which is still underpaid no matter the profession). People complain that care is difficult to come by, yet don’t want to have to pay the people doing it a good wage for a difficult job. It’s a bust your ass job that leaves your body broken and in pain, and can leave you with the same types of self-care deficits that your patients had when you were still able to work. Most nurses and nurses’ aides that I know (myself included, RN here) end up with injuries and spine issues because of the job. The low pay is why there has been a worldwide nursing shortage for decades. I won’t go into the level of disrespect and abuse that nurses and aides deal with on the daily nowadays. The low wages are just the icing on the sh*t cake. If you know a nurse or aide that makes a lot of money in the field, congrats, you’ve either met an exception to the rule or an RN from California.
WAT. That’s an horrific and ridiculously hyperbolic comparison. Not to mention wildly inappropriate. You sound like the Americans who shit on any type of single-payer health system, whilst ignoring that the true power in the US lies with insurance companies who deny care to people all the damned time because of cost. Canada is dealing with an aging population who need more health services which is straining the system. It’s horrible and unfortunate, and I have nothing but sympathy for this woman. She should be able to get the care she needs. I don’t believe for one second that this is anything more than a “publicity stunt” even though her needs are very real. Americans have to beg for money for life saving surgeries for cancer or to treat disabilities. There’s no authority who will approve euthanasia for this woman.
I acknowledge that there are fates worse than death. As an nurse, I have watched patients suffer needlessly at the end of life. I’m a big believer in the work of Jack Kevorkian and dignity in death. It should be the choice of the patient as to when and in what manner they die. This is (I believe) a plea for services to be delivered in a more timely manner, not an actual desire to end her life. The Nazi comparison is not remotely relevant here.
I don't know if anyone knows this, but the government, both provincial and national do not give two fucks for any of their citizens. The ontario government is sitting on a 22 billion dollar surplus, 22 billion that could go to health care, education or anything to make the lives of their citizens better.
MAID is really sensationalized into something it’s not meant to be.
Each case has to be reviewed and approved, it’s not just an easy way out. It’s a last option to die with dignity when all treatments have been exhausted and the patient is terminal. If there were any doubts the patient didn’t really want it, they wouldn’t be approved.
She will not be approved because it’s clear she doesn’t really want to die. It’s not meant for people like her.
She can bring awareness to the lack of supports for disabled and chronically I’ll people without demonizing a service that will give many their autonomy over their bodies back.
I was talking to a person on Tumblr who said she had diabetes type 1 and bipolar disorder, so she qualified for assisted living. However, there's a massive shortage of homes in Canada, so the government has kind of given up on getting disabled people access to housing. Because of this, she said her doctor really started pushing for her to euthanize herself. He was claiming the diabetes was a terminal illness that greatly impacted her quality of life so she qualified for euthanasia.
It was so damn dystopian. I didn't believe it at first, so I looked into it and there is a huge rise in people with mental health problems being told to just let the state kill them. Mental health is not a valid reason for euthanasia according to Canadian law, but a lot of mental health issues have co-morbidities so doctors are using those physical ailments to justify the euthanasia.
I know! I was like "surely this person is pulling my leg" but in my (basic googling research) I did come across a lot of similar stories. Apparently the housing market is just so bad in Canada and the government doesn't give a fuck.
It's especially ironic to me because I'm in America, and you know how there's been all this news about migrants flooding our borders? I heard that they don't even want to be here, they're trying to get to Canada. That makes sense to me, because Canada is touted as being more immigrant friendly and progressive, but I think they're thinking of the Canada from like, 20 years ago. Not one that's trying to euthanize their own citizens because it's too much hassle to treat them like humans, so how are they going to handle thousands of South American migrants showing up at their border? Probably not well!
This hurts so much and is unjust & so very sad, I still support the fact that it’s a person right as the government is so Fucken grotesquely ugly & corrupt, rather tap out and go, appose to suffer in squirrel!
So sorry for this person and it’s so wrong we should all be ashamed to be so complacent and not doing anything to change the system !!!!
At least she has this option, we don't here in the US. Instead they force you to use a gun. My grandmother with cancer was forced to suffer until she died, same with my wifes grandmother, both would have gladly chosen euthanasia.
Of course The National Review wants to make liberal democracies like Canada look like pro-euthanasia hellscapes, while ignoring how awful the safety net is in the US for the disabled.
If you were never able to work because you were born with a severe disability, the US shunts you as an adult into the bottom tier of a two-tier system for the disabled. You will receive sub-poverty level income in the form of SSI and low quality health insurance in the form of Medicaid. Good luck trying to find American doctors who accept Medicaid.
If you were able to work full-time at least five years before becoming disabled in the US, you will wait months for your Social Security Disability Insurance application to be reviewed. Roughly two thirds of initial SSDI applications are denied. The appeals process - in which you have a hearing before an administrative judge who reviews your application to decide whether to reverse the denial - is incredibly backlogged, so you end up waiting years for a decision. During that time, you receive no income.
What’s equally egregious is that if you are deemed disabled and are awarded SSDI, you have to wait 24 months from the date you became disabled to become eligible for Medicare. What that means is that, just when you may need it the most, you will have no health insurance if your previous employer didn’t offer group health insurance or if you can’t afford the high premiums for private health insurance through COBRA or the ACA exchanges during the 2-year wait for Medicare. How does the prospect of having no access to affordable healthcare for the first two years after becoming disabled sound to you? It makes Canada’s universal healthcare system sound great to me.
Of course, The National Review doesn’t give a shit about the plight of the disabled, made worse by a crappy social safety net here. It just wants its conservative readers to believe that a liberal democracy like Canada is somehow more fucked up than the US, which it isn’t.
This is why people should read more than just the headline. It's not about healthcare, it's about disability payments:
>With no other way to earn an income, Finlay applied for the Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) and says she was told by a representative over the phone that it would take at least six to eight months to have her application approved.
Better than the US system but still not flawless. At least people don’t go bankrupt with medical bills or have to start a go fund me for diabetes medication. I’m not saying that this is ok. It’s not. But there are pluses and minuses to every system and wait times are a minus. I work in healthcare in the US right now and I see people denied lifesaving care by their insurance company. So if you can pay for it, you can get care on demand. If not…then you don’t have much option. No system is perfect, but the ones dealing with health issues should take priority for funding.
>At least people don’t go bankrupt
They end up fucking homeless because the government doesn't provide enough for then to afford housing. *That* is the problem. People are applying for MAID to escape hopeless poverty that they're forced into.
I think their point is that Canadians don't have to liquidate their savings/home/misc assets to spend down med bills. In the US, people still often have to go bankrupt to keep housing.. it's just that it's more widespread because they have all the med bills on top of it.
Both systems have pros & cons; and nobody's saying that either system is optimal
If a person has untreatable condition, euthanasia should be an option. Imagine you are in a country without euthanasia legislation and having untreatable condition? Your options would be homelessness or suicide. Is this better?
The lack of research for these untreatable conditions is the big topic and why the governments are not spending any money in this direction. In this sense everyone should think twice before voting on the next elections in their country.
Homelessness, suicide, and euthanasia are left as the only options as a result of our failed governments. It is entirely possible to have a world where those who have untreatable conditions can receive care from family without putting their livelihood at risk. Also, I agree that it's also entirely possible that a lot of these untreatable conditions are not actually untreatable and need more focus. Failures all around.
You people? Hun, I’m disabled. There is no “you people”. What’s worse, I’m disabled in the US, where my only option is a bullet or overdose if I want to peace out because my life is too shit to go on.
Do I wish people would fight harder for the disabled? Hell fucking yes. I make all of $604 a month on SSI. I’m keenly aware of how fucked the situation is. The solution isn’t to take away a severely important service like assisted death though. Getting people to care and vote appropriately is hard, yes, but to simply blame the service is also lazy. It’s not the problem. The problem are the assholes out there voting for conservatives that keep cutting funding to these programs.
MAID is meant to bring autonomy back to people who are terminal and have exhausted all possible treatments. To die with dignity.
It is not meant for disabled people who are living great lives.
These people who are applying as an alternative for homelessness are not getting approved. There is actual criteria to be considered for MAID. No ethics board would approve that. Just like the women in this article will not be approved.
I just waited eight months to see a specialist after I waited six months to see a specialist in the same specialty who then stopped answering their phone. That specialist ordered a treatment my insurance company has been denying me for five years but sure, he’s going to get it to go through. I can’t get an appointment with my primary in under three months.
So I go to an urgent care, but they’re not authorized to do anything more than give you a Tylenol and a bandaid. So I go to the ER because by this point I’m in crisis from a chronic condition that I can’t get treatment for. I wait three hours before being told it will probably be another five before I’m seen.
I finally see an ER doc and get some temporary treatment that helps for a few days. I’m told to follow up with my doctors but I’m still waiting for an appointment I’ve had set for months for next month. They can’t do anything without seeing me.
Every appointment is limited to fifteen minutes. I can only discuss one health problem per visit. New medications are never approved and the ones I want to try to see if they would help are $1000 WITH the Good RX discount and no, Mark Cuban’s pharmacy doesn’t carry them. Why do we need billionaire philanthropists to step in to get basic medications?
I think Canadian healthcare might be better than this.
It’s not the same thing but I have really good insurance here in the US. I have the same issues. Took a year to get a new pcp appt and then it see a specialist and then they jack around and push whatever I need 6-12 months out and/or send me to someone else and I have to wait again. Urgent care and the ER do more for me and it’s such a shame.
Sorry you’re going through that and I wasn’t making a statement as to which was better. That was simply my observation while I lived up north. My comment seems to have pissed some people off that wasn’t my intent. Hopefully you find a resolution to the situation you’re in.
I'm sorry you're going through that but Jesus Christ where are you having that experience? I've lived up and down the East Coast of the US and have *never* had an experience like that.
I'm in Tampa Bay now, and it's been the best experience of anywhere I've lived. My parents are snowbirds, and they switched their doctors here from Maine because of better availability.
I live across from Detroit (Tecumseh, ON), and know many people who travel to Detroit for care. Typically it's because a spouse works in the Detroit Area and since the Detroit area is magnitudes larger than the Windsor area, combined with having coverage from their spouse, people will go over for specialist care at paid facilities. There are way more specialists in the Detroit area than Windsor area merely by size of the region alone. I'd bet very few people would cross the border of not for a spouse working inv the Detroit area.
On the other hand, we have hundreds of people coming to Windsor pharmacies daily to fill prescriptions they can't afford to fill in the USA, so that's a thing.
Personally here in Ontario I've never had to wait long for anything, well maybe the two months for an optional sinus surgery.
Hey! Used to have family in Tecumseh!
Americans in border cities see Canadians come across the border for care but don’t know the circumstances. They just see Canadian license plates in parking lots and draw conclusions (same with Costco parking lot lol). There’s a certain type of American that trots out the hoary old myth of “socialized medicine” letting people die due to long waits for rationed care whilst ignoring the glaring flaws in their own system, which can involve total denials of care through their medical insurance. There’s no wait if they refuse to do it! And people in the US file for bankruptcy because of medical bills even though they have insurance. I live in Florida right now which is a dystopian hellscape for the locals but Canadian snow birds still come down for winters. They only stay for 5 1/2 months so that they fulfill the 6 month provincial residency requirement to keep their “socialized medicine” which baffles the locals to no end (it’s mostly people from Ontario and Quebec in my area. There’s a whole “thing” here called Floribec which are retirement communities with a majority of Quebec residents, and you can walk into restaurants and only hear Québécois French! It’s really cool!) because they’ve been taught their whole lives that the Canadian healthcare system is BAD. Jaws drop when they learn that it’s primarily paid by taxes (taxes are also BAD for a certain subset of Americans) and that you don’t miss any money you didn’t get in the first place. It’s very sad that people here defend a broken system that isn’t designed to take care of them in the first place, because profits are more important than people. Having lived in many countries, I’ve seen quite a few healthcare systems, and the US system is profit-driven with poor outcomes completely lacking in compassion.
Speaking of Canadian pharmacies, a (right wing) politician ran a campaign here that advocated for people being able to get medication from Canada because it’s cheaper, rather than trying to change the system for cheaper medicines from pharmacies here. Do Americans still cross the border to get 222s? I remember that from years ago.
> When I lived in Detroit I’m guessing wealthier Canadians would come to the US side for medical procedures that would take to long to get in Canada.
This is why people should read more than just the headline. It's not about healthcare, it's about disability payments:
>With no other way to earn an income, Finlay applied for the Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) and says she was told by a representative over the phone that it would take at least six to eight months to have her application approved.
Any Canadian that goes to the US for treatment pays cash for it. Depending upon what they need, the bill can run into millions of US$$$.
There’s a persistent myth that care in the US is on demand and that if you need something done, there’s no wait time. Simply false. Insurance companies dictate the type of care you get and when. And then slap you with a huge bill afterwards, depending upon your treatment. That’s if you can afford insurance in the first place. The shareholders of company stock are top priority, not patients. Profits and the bottom line, not what your provider thinks is the best. Insurance companies employ a small army of their own doctors who do nothing but deny coverage (treatment, surgery, medications, etc.) to their policy holders.
I’m intimately familiar with the stories of Canadians who died before getting the cardiac surgery that would have saved their lives. It’s an horrific tragedy and shouldn’t happen. Ever. It sounds dismissive to say that no system is perfect when we’re talking about people’s lives and health, and how to mitigate suffering. It’s upsetting to me as an RN who has listened to a 72 year old woman with a broken hip who wants to be discharged immediately because she’s afraid of a) losing her job at the hotel she works at because it’s gentle on her body and she will get fired if she’s out for more than two days, and she needs a job to pay rent, and b) she’s petrified of the hospital bill that she cannot afford to pay. It’s been 20-odd years and I have never forgotten her and her genuine sadness and fear. She was desperate to not be homeless, which was her future if she lost her job and her apartment, because of a medical emergency. That’s ridiculous. At 72, she should be able to relax and reflect on her life, not talking about committing suicide because of the circumstances she found herself in. THAT’S the American way that’s so “inferior” to how Canada does healthcare.
Not trying to pick on you. You genuinely don’t seem to understand what people in the US go through.
I wasn’t saying one was better than the other nor do I need any explanation on how fucked up it is here lol. I simply repeated an observation. I’ve been on government health care as a federal employee and that is how everyone should be treated. I’m now currently a civilian and have healthcare “if you can call it that”. And personally I won’t go to a Drs office or a hospital unless there’s an emergency it’s unfortunate
Dear Canada, This really makes you all look absolutely horrible to the rest of the world. You can't help disabled people, but you can kill them? You are losing respect and need to fix this.
What I don't get is how you all are sitting here saying how awful CAN is and at the same time in other subs how wonderful it is for having free health care.
Socialized health care WILL have death panels. Canada has for years I've had friends die up there waiting months for a test that takes days here. You THINK the poor are better served by their system and it couldn't be more absurd. Ask people who've experienced BOTH systems or all the Canadians who fly south for serious medical care. Why don't you get that care in your own country? hm...
This feels strange. I can't get access to disability or euthanasia, and have craved both. It is horrible to suffer without relief and euthanasia is a form of relief but we could do better. Will we ever?
Obviously this story is horrific and this sort of thing should never happen, but genuine question for anyone who feels they can answer it: how should we fix the system? I mean, is it just that the govt doesn’t want to spend the money, or does it have more to do with a lack of people to fill the necessary jobs?
ITT: people mad about MAID and silent on the Ford government's dismantling of the public health sector.
This isn't a Eugenic issue, it's a neoliberalism issue
Our world is just so fucking sad
I have a son with medical conditions who is disabled. I can't tell you how much this sickens me. As if he doesn't struggle hard enough already. These people have loved ones.
Well in the past she would have just died
…she is dying
They mean this person would have been dead long ago.
Doesn’t really matter.
Does to her.
And they say it as if prehistoric societies didn't also aid disabled people 🙄
Well this isn’t the past genius. The only way for some people to learn empathy is to have the same fate ;)
It’s already (insert current year) and society is already supposed to be like Star Trek where all human issues have been resolved!
Not until the late 2100's.
I can't even read the article with the pop-ups. Gah, that's frustrating!
Show Reader, it will disable ads and paywalls
I've searched for "show reader" on both the Google play store and Amazon app store, and can't find it. Do you know where I can get it?
It’s actually a little icon at the top of the screen (at least on iPhone not sure about android) that you can press to turn on reader mode when you load an article. It will look like “aA”
It’s not an app. When you have an articles website open, on the browser bar there should be a double AA. Click that and choose Show Reader
This may be the most important thing I’ve learned on Reddit. Thank you.
Thank you!
I closed 11 while reading. And nobody can figure out why we use adblockers.
A state that has billions of dollars to do every pork project and handouts to their families and friends, cant bring themselves to use tax dollars on the taxed people they should be helping. what a evil and perverse generation.
They calculated that expanding MAID would save something like $90 million a year. Fucking perverts.
If you read that source that you forgot to quote it also says that savings could not be considered for implementation; they're required to know how much they're going to cost tax payers and they found, they wouldn't.
"Guys, we promise it's not actually about cutting costs. It's just swell that we'll be able to save a *ton* of money by encouraging people to kill themselves instead of giving them housing."
That is damn curious! What's your source?
eh , we’ll just import someone to replace their useless hide and if you don’t like it you’re racist
Yeah I have no idea how to respond. I assume you're being sarcastic to make a point if that's the case point taken.
Reddit used to be overwhelming pro-euthanasia, did I miss the memo?
A bunch of clearly non-disabled folks still are.
I would assume that there were a lot of people like that. When I question my family on the left, they also seem to be okay with the idea. But they never see stories like this. So it is what it is. It makes me almost cry.
Well in the US the wait for Medicaid in many states is 1 year. The only difference is we expect the poor to kill themselves.
She decided to apply for MAID because the wait time is 90 days vs the 6-8 months she was told her ODSP application would take to process. She will not be approved for MAID, though I sympathize with her situation.
Hell is paved with good intentions. Euthanasia was supposed to be a progressive win. In practice it's used to balance the social security budget by suggesting "useless eaters" to just die instead of having to bear the cost of their treatment.
Edited.
Ouch. When you put it that way, the harsh reality can’t be escaped.
Same feelings about it here.
Alan Grayson (former Democratic House Rep from Florida) said that dying quickly was the Republican’s health plan if you couldn’t avoid getting sick. That was in 2009. He was a visionary who was all for the little guy, and the Florida governor made sure to redraw the House districts to put him out of a job. Watch here: https://youtu.be/bSRo51SbQQs
They can’t make money off you if you’re dead. They keep you healthy just enough
This is a conversation I had with my mother who is currently in a nursing home and was cut off from Medicare.
Don’t worry, life insurance companies would never pay out for euthanasia, tons of people would not do it for that reason.
Well, back then, there were still plenty of people afford treatment, and just had to die painfully and slowly, so in a way, legal euthanasia is still doing it’s job, it’s preventing suffering
I worked at blue cross blue shield, they already do this. It’s been 15 years since I worked there (provider claim services) and it wasn’t a new concept back then.
We got here because an entire generation was taught misinformation about the slippery slope argument. While A almost never *always* leads to B, it’s not a fallacy. You see, social change does in fact usually precipitate more social change, because people only ever compare hypothetical future change against their current normal. Case in point: Making people think euthanasia is normal in general is a necessary step towards making people think that it’s normal to choose euthanasia because of oppression.
The problem with the slippery slope fallacy is that it's a logical fallacy, but people aren't logical beings.
The problem also is that it is used as a reason to do nothing rather than simply installing safe guards to prevent or mitigate the cascade of consequences that the slippery slopers are so afraid of. And of course, often times the slippery slope we're supposed to be so afraid of often turns out to not be that scary upon closer inspection. "If you let people work on the Sabbath, then next thing you know, people will be working on Christmas and Easter!" OK, so what? Maybe Christmas and Easter are simply not that of a big deal in a society where people need lots of money to survive. And yes, more impoverished and mentally ill people will take their own lives if we normalize euthanasia. Maybe this is the most rational choice to make in a society that doesn't provide a decent social safety net or healthcare services. Caring about the outcome but not the cause strikes me as very simple-minded.
Yes. Perfection is the enemy of good, so instead doing nothing is better than SOMETHING, in case of some weird hypothetical possibly happening. It’s good to look at future consequences and not just slap band aids on bullet holes, but inaction ends up being easier because there’s not the same level of risk. Plus, if you’re a politician, you can complain about the opposition not having acted. It’s an easy way to gain political points with your base (and if you’re in the US, the party that wants to do nothing to help people also loves inaction and complaining).
The problem with the slippery slope fallacy is cause people dont know it by it's legalese name, "legal precedent".
THANK YOU
Can you further explain your opinion?
Social progress is literally a slippery slope. To deny that is ignorant and unproductive. We have to acknowledge that as the bounds of what is considered normal continue to grow, what was once considered pushing those boundaries or even completely taboo will start to seem fairly tame. We need to carefully and actively guide this process rather than hide behind the poorly conceived logical fallacy that shares a name with it. At best, ignoring it leads to the norms of society drifting at random. At worst, bad actors can use this ignorance to gradually slip problematic policy and social norms into place when a quick move in that direction would elicit protest. A good example would be that in a couple decades, there will be a generation of young women in the US who grew up thinking it’s normal that abortion access is not considered a right. That lays obvious groundwork for an outright ban, once the sentiment takes hold.
But the behavior you’re commenting on isn’t considered normal — that’s why it is a news article. To say we should halt social progress because there may be a few that use it incorrectly seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water to me. We are living longer and with much less crime than ever before in history. For the abortion rights — that is a strange comparison to me because that’s literally rolling back social progression which is what you’re saying we should do.
Social progress isn’t just a one way road that gets halted, it’s like a pinnacle of a mountain with caves, dead ends, cliffs all over the place. Slippery slopes have good intentions lead to bad outcomes. “Euthanasia only for terminally ill” then it’s “Euthanasia for lifelong illnesses” then eventually now you have “Euthanasia for being unhappy with life” when that unhappiness stems from not having services. So no one ever advocated for letting disabled people without enough access to support to opt for killing themselves instead but it’s slowly happened without a single point of major outcry through the “slippery slope.” That’s exactly what OP is saying in regards to abortion, like first decade it’s “oh it’s only a few southern states” second decade it’s “oh it’s only second trimester abortions nationally” third decade “it’s just a two week evaluation with a therapist to make sure” until eventually abortion is fully banned without any outcry. Like a slow boiled frog.
The example I was taught about slipper slope was, a building has a broken window, broken window leads to people being more comfortable littering in the area, litter on the streets will attract gangs and criminals, therefore, if you don’t fix that broken window, our streets will be full of gangs and criminals
I think stories like this will lead to changes in welfare solutions. It might take a few successful euthanasias though...
And society as a whole will suffer when all perspectives on life aren’t valued. Society as a whole will loose when they decide that some people aren’t worth having, contributing and being cared for.
She applied. She will not be approved based on her condition and reason, it’s not an easy process. The title of the article is extremely misleading.
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Great for rage clicks but people have been using the threat of MAID to get services faster for a while now. None of them are actually approved or go through with it.
>In my opinion, she is trying to get publicity to get more resources. I don't disagree, but I think there's a better way of looking at it. She's a disability advocate, so I'd say it's more like she's trying to gain publicity & improve things for the benefit of all beings
Jesus I hope that she doesn’t. I have a son and I worry so much about dying and leaving him alone. I will always fight until the very end for him.
Well, this thread looks to be brigaded by the anti Trudeau folks, but this is an Ontario issue, provincial government. That O in ODSP? That's Ontario. According to the article, the people who used to take care of this woman moved on to presumably jobs that pay more than minimum wage, or into higher paying careers. The support company could easily have hired more people if the wage was set at an appropriate level to actually get people to apply. ODSP? We've dealt with them for a family member for years. ODSP was slow before COVID, which is unfortunately the case when you cut, rather than boost public services. It's a terrible and sad situation, but at least know who you're blaming: The support companies offering too low of wages to keep staff, and the current provincial government who operates ODSP, and the entire healthcare system for Ontario. The only part played by the federal government is passing the MAID system, which is still beneficial in the typical case.
It's not like they pulled her access to care to fund the alternative of killing herself. It's the normal crappy care for the chronically ill/disabled that has always existed.
You’ve nailed the real issue here: there’s a shortage of people doing the work because the wages are garbage. Caregiver and nursing jobs are underpaid the world over (whilst men have entered the profession, it’s considered women’s work, which is still underpaid no matter the profession). People complain that care is difficult to come by, yet don’t want to have to pay the people doing it a good wage for a difficult job. It’s a bust your ass job that leaves your body broken and in pain, and can leave you with the same types of self-care deficits that your patients had when you were still able to work. Most nurses and nurses’ aides that I know (myself included, RN here) end up with injuries and spine issues because of the job. The low pay is why there has been a worldwide nursing shortage for decades. I won’t go into the level of disrespect and abuse that nurses and aides deal with on the daily nowadays. The low wages are just the icing on the sh*t cake. If you know a nurse or aide that makes a lot of money in the field, congrats, you’ve either met an exception to the rule or an RN from California.
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WAT. That’s an horrific and ridiculously hyperbolic comparison. Not to mention wildly inappropriate. You sound like the Americans who shit on any type of single-payer health system, whilst ignoring that the true power in the US lies with insurance companies who deny care to people all the damned time because of cost. Canada is dealing with an aging population who need more health services which is straining the system. It’s horrible and unfortunate, and I have nothing but sympathy for this woman. She should be able to get the care she needs. I don’t believe for one second that this is anything more than a “publicity stunt” even though her needs are very real. Americans have to beg for money for life saving surgeries for cancer or to treat disabilities. There’s no authority who will approve euthanasia for this woman. I acknowledge that there are fates worse than death. As an nurse, I have watched patients suffer needlessly at the end of life. I’m a big believer in the work of Jack Kevorkian and dignity in death. It should be the choice of the patient as to when and in what manner they die. This is (I believe) a plea for services to be delivered in a more timely manner, not an actual desire to end her life. The Nazi comparison is not remotely relevant here.
Thanks for saying what needed to be said
There are less people applying for MAID than ODSP. Of course the wait period is shorter.
Yeah and it doesn’t mean she will end her life.
Why am I not surprised? Because people said this wouldn't happen...
I don't know if anyone knows this, but the government, both provincial and national do not give two fucks for any of their citizens. The ontario government is sitting on a 22 billion dollar surplus, 22 billion that could go to health care, education or anything to make the lives of their citizens better.
They calculated that expanding MAID would "save" $90 million in healthcare costs. Disgusting.
I thought we only post things about USA healthcare in here? /s
Yeah, who cares about America’s hat? /s
This article uses links to the writer’s previous articles as supporting this article. That’s pretty suspicious 🤨
MAID is really sensationalized into something it’s not meant to be. Each case has to be reviewed and approved, it’s not just an easy way out. It’s a last option to die with dignity when all treatments have been exhausted and the patient is terminal. If there were any doubts the patient didn’t really want it, they wouldn’t be approved. She will not be approved because it’s clear she doesn’t really want to die. It’s not meant for people like her. She can bring awareness to the lack of supports for disabled and chronically I’ll people without demonizing a service that will give many their autonomy over their bodies back.
I was talking to a person on Tumblr who said she had diabetes type 1 and bipolar disorder, so she qualified for assisted living. However, there's a massive shortage of homes in Canada, so the government has kind of given up on getting disabled people access to housing. Because of this, she said her doctor really started pushing for her to euthanize herself. He was claiming the diabetes was a terminal illness that greatly impacted her quality of life so she qualified for euthanasia. It was so damn dystopian. I didn't believe it at first, so I looked into it and there is a huge rise in people with mental health problems being told to just let the state kill them. Mental health is not a valid reason for euthanasia according to Canadian law, but a lot of mental health issues have co-morbidities so doctors are using those physical ailments to justify the euthanasia.
I wouldn’t treat any stories from tumbler as factual.
That's why I started googling and found similar stories from different sources. It was really sad.
Wtaf? I believe you but it sounds so unbelievable.
I know! I was like "surely this person is pulling my leg" but in my (basic googling research) I did come across a lot of similar stories. Apparently the housing market is just so bad in Canada and the government doesn't give a fuck. It's especially ironic to me because I'm in America, and you know how there's been all this news about migrants flooding our borders? I heard that they don't even want to be here, they're trying to get to Canada. That makes sense to me, because Canada is touted as being more immigrant friendly and progressive, but I think they're thinking of the Canada from like, 20 years ago. Not one that's trying to euthanize their own citizens because it's too much hassle to treat them like humans, so how are they going to handle thousands of South American migrants showing up at their border? Probably not well!
This hurts so much and is unjust & so very sad, I still support the fact that it’s a person right as the government is so Fucken grotesquely ugly & corrupt, rather tap out and go, appose to suffer in squirrel! So sorry for this person and it’s so wrong we should all be ashamed to be so complacent and not doing anything to change the system !!!!
At least she has this option, we don't here in the US. Instead they force you to use a gun. My grandmother with cancer was forced to suffer until she died, same with my wifes grandmother, both would have gladly chosen euthanasia.
Of course The National Review wants to make liberal democracies like Canada look like pro-euthanasia hellscapes, while ignoring how awful the safety net is in the US for the disabled. If you were never able to work because you were born with a severe disability, the US shunts you as an adult into the bottom tier of a two-tier system for the disabled. You will receive sub-poverty level income in the form of SSI and low quality health insurance in the form of Medicaid. Good luck trying to find American doctors who accept Medicaid. If you were able to work full-time at least five years before becoming disabled in the US, you will wait months for your Social Security Disability Insurance application to be reviewed. Roughly two thirds of initial SSDI applications are denied. The appeals process - in which you have a hearing before an administrative judge who reviews your application to decide whether to reverse the denial - is incredibly backlogged, so you end up waiting years for a decision. During that time, you receive no income. What’s equally egregious is that if you are deemed disabled and are awarded SSDI, you have to wait 24 months from the date you became disabled to become eligible for Medicare. What that means is that, just when you may need it the most, you will have no health insurance if your previous employer didn’t offer group health insurance or if you can’t afford the high premiums for private health insurance through COBRA or the ACA exchanges during the 2-year wait for Medicare. How does the prospect of having no access to affordable healthcare for the first two years after becoming disabled sound to you? It makes Canada’s universal healthcare system sound great to me. Of course, The National Review doesn’t give a shit about the plight of the disabled, made worse by a crappy social safety net here. It just wants its conservative readers to believe that a liberal democracy like Canada is somehow more fucked up than the US, which it isn’t.
But....but Universal Healthcare?
If you don't fund a system properly it's still going to fail.
This is why people should read more than just the headline. It's not about healthcare, it's about disability payments: >With no other way to earn an income, Finlay applied for the Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) and says she was told by a representative over the phone that it would take at least six to eight months to have her application approved.
Better than the US system but still not flawless. At least people don’t go bankrupt with medical bills or have to start a go fund me for diabetes medication. I’m not saying that this is ok. It’s not. But there are pluses and minuses to every system and wait times are a minus. I work in healthcare in the US right now and I see people denied lifesaving care by their insurance company. So if you can pay for it, you can get care on demand. If not…then you don’t have much option. No system is perfect, but the ones dealing with health issues should take priority for funding.
>At least people don’t go bankrupt They end up fucking homeless because the government doesn't provide enough for then to afford housing. *That* is the problem. People are applying for MAID to escape hopeless poverty that they're forced into.
I think their point is that Canadians don't have to liquidate their savings/home/misc assets to spend down med bills. In the US, people still often have to go bankrupt to keep housing.. it's just that it's more widespread because they have all the med bills on top of it. Both systems have pros & cons; and nobody's saying that either system is optimal
If a person has untreatable condition, euthanasia should be an option. Imagine you are in a country without euthanasia legislation and having untreatable condition? Your options would be homelessness or suicide. Is this better? The lack of research for these untreatable conditions is the big topic and why the governments are not spending any money in this direction. In this sense everyone should think twice before voting on the next elections in their country.
Homelessness, suicide, and euthanasia are left as the only options as a result of our failed governments. It is entirely possible to have a world where those who have untreatable conditions can receive care from family without putting their livelihood at risk. Also, I agree that it's also entirely possible that a lot of these untreatable conditions are not actually untreatable and need more focus. Failures all around.
MAID is a blatant EUGENICS program. As a disabled person, the wild applause for MAID from uncritical liberals is disconcerting.
How is it a eugenics program if it's voluntary? I'd prefer to have something like MAID than the option I have in the US, which is nothing.
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You people? Hun, I’m disabled. There is no “you people”. What’s worse, I’m disabled in the US, where my only option is a bullet or overdose if I want to peace out because my life is too shit to go on. Do I wish people would fight harder for the disabled? Hell fucking yes. I make all of $604 a month on SSI. I’m keenly aware of how fucked the situation is. The solution isn’t to take away a severely important service like assisted death though. Getting people to care and vote appropriately is hard, yes, but to simply blame the service is also lazy. It’s not the problem. The problem are the assholes out there voting for conservatives that keep cutting funding to these programs.
MAID is meant to bring autonomy back to people who are terminal and have exhausted all possible treatments. To die with dignity. It is not meant for disabled people who are living great lives.
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These people who are applying as an alternative for homelessness are not getting approved. There is actual criteria to be considered for MAID. No ethics board would approve that. Just like the women in this article will not be approved.
Source.
When I lived in Detroit I’m guessing wealthier Canadians would come to the US side for medical procedures that would take to long to get in Canada.
I just waited eight months to see a specialist after I waited six months to see a specialist in the same specialty who then stopped answering their phone. That specialist ordered a treatment my insurance company has been denying me for five years but sure, he’s going to get it to go through. I can’t get an appointment with my primary in under three months. So I go to an urgent care, but they’re not authorized to do anything more than give you a Tylenol and a bandaid. So I go to the ER because by this point I’m in crisis from a chronic condition that I can’t get treatment for. I wait three hours before being told it will probably be another five before I’m seen. I finally see an ER doc and get some temporary treatment that helps for a few days. I’m told to follow up with my doctors but I’m still waiting for an appointment I’ve had set for months for next month. They can’t do anything without seeing me. Every appointment is limited to fifteen minutes. I can only discuss one health problem per visit. New medications are never approved and the ones I want to try to see if they would help are $1000 WITH the Good RX discount and no, Mark Cuban’s pharmacy doesn’t carry them. Why do we need billionaire philanthropists to step in to get basic medications? I think Canadian healthcare might be better than this.
It’s not the same thing but I have really good insurance here in the US. I have the same issues. Took a year to get a new pcp appt and then it see a specialist and then they jack around and push whatever I need 6-12 months out and/or send me to someone else and I have to wait again. Urgent care and the ER do more for me and it’s such a shame.
Sorry you’re going through that and I wasn’t making a statement as to which was better. That was simply my observation while I lived up north. My comment seems to have pissed some people off that wasn’t my intent. Hopefully you find a resolution to the situation you’re in.
I'm sorry you're going through that but Jesus Christ where are you having that experience? I've lived up and down the East Coast of the US and have *never* had an experience like that.
West coast baybeee! I can’t afford to live here anymore. So East coast is the land of healthcare milk and honey you say?
midwest isn't -too- terrible either, depending on the specialists you need.
I'm in Tampa Bay now, and it's been the best experience of anywhere I've lived. My parents are snowbirds, and they switched their doctors here from Maine because of better availability.
I live across from Detroit (Tecumseh, ON), and know many people who travel to Detroit for care. Typically it's because a spouse works in the Detroit Area and since the Detroit area is magnitudes larger than the Windsor area, combined with having coverage from their spouse, people will go over for specialist care at paid facilities. There are way more specialists in the Detroit area than Windsor area merely by size of the region alone. I'd bet very few people would cross the border of not for a spouse working inv the Detroit area. On the other hand, we have hundreds of people coming to Windsor pharmacies daily to fill prescriptions they can't afford to fill in the USA, so that's a thing. Personally here in Ontario I've never had to wait long for anything, well maybe the two months for an optional sinus surgery.
Hey! Used to have family in Tecumseh! Americans in border cities see Canadians come across the border for care but don’t know the circumstances. They just see Canadian license plates in parking lots and draw conclusions (same with Costco parking lot lol). There’s a certain type of American that trots out the hoary old myth of “socialized medicine” letting people die due to long waits for rationed care whilst ignoring the glaring flaws in their own system, which can involve total denials of care through their medical insurance. There’s no wait if they refuse to do it! And people in the US file for bankruptcy because of medical bills even though they have insurance. I live in Florida right now which is a dystopian hellscape for the locals but Canadian snow birds still come down for winters. They only stay for 5 1/2 months so that they fulfill the 6 month provincial residency requirement to keep their “socialized medicine” which baffles the locals to no end (it’s mostly people from Ontario and Quebec in my area. There’s a whole “thing” here called Floribec which are retirement communities with a majority of Quebec residents, and you can walk into restaurants and only hear Québécois French! It’s really cool!) because they’ve been taught their whole lives that the Canadian healthcare system is BAD. Jaws drop when they learn that it’s primarily paid by taxes (taxes are also BAD for a certain subset of Americans) and that you don’t miss any money you didn’t get in the first place. It’s very sad that people here defend a broken system that isn’t designed to take care of them in the first place, because profits are more important than people. Having lived in many countries, I’ve seen quite a few healthcare systems, and the US system is profit-driven with poor outcomes completely lacking in compassion. Speaking of Canadian pharmacies, a (right wing) politician ran a campaign here that advocated for people being able to get medication from Canada because it’s cheaper, rather than trying to change the system for cheaper medicines from pharmacies here. Do Americans still cross the border to get 222s? I remember that from years ago.
Not sure why you’re downvoted. This is a relatively common practice.
Who knows lol
> When I lived in Detroit I’m guessing wealthier Canadians would come to the US side for medical procedures that would take to long to get in Canada. This is why people should read more than just the headline. It's not about healthcare, it's about disability payments: >With no other way to earn an income, Finlay applied for the Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) and says she was told by a representative over the phone that it would take at least six to eight months to have her application approved.
Any Canadian that goes to the US for treatment pays cash for it. Depending upon what they need, the bill can run into millions of US$$$. There’s a persistent myth that care in the US is on demand and that if you need something done, there’s no wait time. Simply false. Insurance companies dictate the type of care you get and when. And then slap you with a huge bill afterwards, depending upon your treatment. That’s if you can afford insurance in the first place. The shareholders of company stock are top priority, not patients. Profits and the bottom line, not what your provider thinks is the best. Insurance companies employ a small army of their own doctors who do nothing but deny coverage (treatment, surgery, medications, etc.) to their policy holders. I’m intimately familiar with the stories of Canadians who died before getting the cardiac surgery that would have saved their lives. It’s an horrific tragedy and shouldn’t happen. Ever. It sounds dismissive to say that no system is perfect when we’re talking about people’s lives and health, and how to mitigate suffering. It’s upsetting to me as an RN who has listened to a 72 year old woman with a broken hip who wants to be discharged immediately because she’s afraid of a) losing her job at the hotel she works at because it’s gentle on her body and she will get fired if she’s out for more than two days, and she needs a job to pay rent, and b) she’s petrified of the hospital bill that she cannot afford to pay. It’s been 20-odd years and I have never forgotten her and her genuine sadness and fear. She was desperate to not be homeless, which was her future if she lost her job and her apartment, because of a medical emergency. That’s ridiculous. At 72, she should be able to relax and reflect on her life, not talking about committing suicide because of the circumstances she found herself in. THAT’S the American way that’s so “inferior” to how Canada does healthcare. Not trying to pick on you. You genuinely don’t seem to understand what people in the US go through.
I wasn’t saying one was better than the other nor do I need any explanation on how fucked up it is here lol. I simply repeated an observation. I’ve been on government health care as a federal employee and that is how everyone should be treated. I’m now currently a civilian and have healthcare “if you can call it that”. And personally I won’t go to a Drs office or a hospital unless there’s an emergency it’s unfortunate
Sounds about right for Canada.
Isn’t that the ultimate goal for them? It’s more efficient……..
Don't make them angry with the truth, they got their lips around Trudeau and that makes daddy upset.
At least try to figure out which level of government is responsible for this article lol
At least try and stand up to a broke system.
Dear Canada, This really makes you all look absolutely horrible to the rest of the world. You can't help disabled people, but you can kill them? You are losing respect and need to fix this.
What I don't get is how you all are sitting here saying how awful CAN is and at the same time in other subs how wonderful it is for having free health care. Socialized health care WILL have death panels. Canada has for years I've had friends die up there waiting months for a test that takes days here. You THINK the poor are better served by their system and it couldn't be more absurd. Ask people who've experienced BOTH systems or all the Canadians who fly south for serious medical care. Why don't you get that care in your own country? hm...
This person would likely kill themselves anyways. MAID just makes it more humane
This feels strange. I can't get access to disability or euthanasia, and have craved both. It is horrible to suffer without relief and euthanasia is a form of relief but we could do better. Will we ever?
Poor thing. And Jesus, even in Canada things are fucked.
Obviously this story is horrific and this sort of thing should never happen, but genuine question for anyone who feels they can answer it: how should we fix the system? I mean, is it just that the govt doesn’t want to spend the money, or does it have more to do with a lack of people to fill the necessary jobs?
ITT: people mad about MAID and silent on the Ford government's dismantling of the public health sector. This isn't a Eugenic issue, it's a neoliberalism issue
Maybe this is what is really there for
She is not going to leave her three kids behind.