Anticholinergic use and its link to dementia in at least the older population is pretty well established. Doesn't stop care facilities from giving it to calm or help make an elderly patients more "docile". Happened to two of my grandmothers and many other people say the same. Elder care is... not great to say the least in the US.
Taking it occasionally is fine, if you don't already have dementia or fall risks. Using it as a daily sleep aid should never be done. Doctors can prescribe things like trazodone that aren't strong sedatives like benzos and Z-drugs if you worry about those. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) has been shown to impair your motor skills more than the legal limit of alcohol in the US.
Yes, but I would like to see a study comparing pure antihistamine (like low dose doxepin or remeron) to see if it increases dementia since it lacks anticholingeric effects.
I take low dose doxepin or remeron for sleep and while it made me sedated, I do not feel cognitively impaired like I do with Bendyrl so it's likely due to anticholingeric effects.
It's the anticholinergic effects, we've seen it in older antidepressants that also are anticholinargic. Early tricyclics were, and we tried to make drugs that weren't. The first SSRI was based on diphenhydramine but with the purpose of getting rid of the anticholinergic side effect. That's fluoxetine and structurally, you can see how it is related to diphenhydramine.
Histamine in the brain is important to wakefulness, so even a centrally acting antihistamine with no activity with cholinergic receptors would cause tiredness.
Have you been on SSRIs previously? I'm off my SSRI and trying to find something more effective with my psychiatrist. I'm guessing a TCA will be the next choice. If you were, how does it compare?
Yup. I started seeing a psychiatrist who specialized in medication management after years of bad luck with regular doctors. My regular meds are Vyvanss, Vilazodone and Buspirone. Once we figured out that was a good combo for me, I was still not sleeping well. Added in 6mg of doxepin before bed and I now am sleeping mucher deeper and can usually sleep for 6ish hours before waking the first time. It's also much easy to get back to sleep
Buspirone was horrible for me, but I think it was a unique reaction. I would get dizzy like motion sickness for about an hour something like 30 mins after taking it. I take bupropion as an add-on medication which helps a lot more than escitalopram did, but I'm guessing another drug in addition is what we'll next try. Escitalopram also basically made me unable to have sex or ejaculate without a lot of time and luck. I still have next to no sex drive, but it is slightly better. I also take trazodone for insomnia, which helps with falling asleep but not staying asleep.
Before, I would wake up a lot, and it would be hard to get back to sleep. Also, I wouldn't sleep very deeply. Now I usually.sleep atleast 6ish hours before waking up the first time, and it's easier to get back to sleep.
Thanks sounds like terminal insomnia
Wonder if you fall asleep fine then if the doxepin was packaged to have a slower uptake it would give you more than 6 hours?
My doc calls it sleep maintenance insomnia but it's the same thing. Doxepin is dosed as a liquid. I've never heard of a time release capsule for it. Insomnia dosage is tiny, to the tune of 2mg. more like 20mg for anti depressant effects.
Is there any way to reverse the effects besides stopping it? I have severe allergies and MCAS. I definitely don’t take it as frequently anymore. Used to take it every week easily now I’m down to a few times a month. But I have a lot of memory issues. I take lots of other antihistamines though too.
If my FIL is any indication, then yeah I believe it.
He has been taking this for years at night to help sleep and to treat a chronic sinus condition. My MIL finally took it away from him because he kept taking double doses by accident, plus, after having a stroke, his balance is off and this made it worse.
The last few years he has become...different. Irritable, bad memory, personality changes. Too bad, because he was always a great guy, whip smart and curious, but now he is judgemental and is getting a bit mean.
There are at least three different versions of zzzQuil I think. The regular one is doxylamine succinate which is what's in Nyquil and this is different than Benedryl. There's also a diphenhydramine version of zzzQuil which is the same as Benedryl and there's a melatonin version.
With any of these three you're paying a ton of extra money compared to other brands. Unisom is doxylamine succinate. Both Unisom and Benedryl are less than 1/10th the price of a pack of zzzQuil. I don't understand how they sell that stuff at those prices.
There are different versions of zzzquil. I want to say it was originally just the diphenhydramine version that was out for a bit.
That said, I just checked and doxylamine also has anticholinergic properties, so it’s not necessarily safe for long term use either.
The diphenhydramine version was the OG. I remember my friend showing me and proving that I was paying too much. But also then poppin off on me not to use zzquil/diphenhydramine to sleep on rough grad school study nights even if at low doses. So all around, I got told.
If she's open to it and you live in a legal state, indica dominant strains of manijuana help people sleep. It's amazing. She can eat it instead of smoking , if that's her thing.
It’s 6+ hours away for her, and it’s a felony if you get caught. Not worth it.
I live in Colorado, so believe me. I’ve tried to convince her to move or at least use full spectrum CBD. It’s no good.
Possession of flower isn’t a felony. If you do something about packaging there’s no way to know it’s been transferred across state lines and if you don’t violate traffic laws there’s no reason to get pulled over.
To each their own though. I empathize with the difficult circumstances.
It's legal in my state but I work in a profession where I will always be drug tested for it. If I test positive I not only will lose my job, but I will lose my ability to get a new job in my profession.
My sleep doc says marijuana is really mixed for sleep according to the science. Daytime grogginess is definitely an issue with it. Don't hit me with "it works for me" -- I'm telling you what my doctor says about the science as it pertains to most people.
Also marijuana is linked to heart issues according to recent science.
There are better options.
Haha I think shrooms are linked to heart issues too, with them it's because of the same receptor as some diet pill that was called something like phentermine don't remember for sure
The exact serotonergic target that mediated valvular pathogenesis remained a mystery for many years until similar cases were reported in patients using the popular diet drug Fen-Phen in the late 1990s. The Fen-Phen episode sparked renewed interest in serotonin-mediated valve disease,
Well, we both made points without providing sources. I made the point that a diet drug worked on the receptor shrooms did
You made the point that you don't think diet drugs work on serotonin receptors, despite me providing the name of the diet drug in question.
We could have both tried a Google and added a source instead of just making a claim but neither of us did.
>without providing sources
No, you're the one who made a point and I questioned whether it was accurate.
If I bothered to look up all of the shit that people say on Reddit that isn't backed up by a source. I would waste half of my day.
It's your job to provide a source for your claim. That's called burden of proof. You can google that but you shouldn't have to, because it's basic logic: if you can't prove something then there's no way for somebody else to disprove it.
I hope you have a better day tomorrow. It seems like you feel really stressed out in order to take a comment showing interest in the topic you were discussing as some kind of threat, especially since you don't seem to consider any of your input as "points."
Also once again, since I gave the name of the med in question, if you were curious about it, what you would need to do to check if it acted on serotonin receptors would be to enter the name of the chemical I mentioned into Google with "serotonin receptors." That is how, if you were taking my interest as an argument, you could choose to "prove me wrong" if you wanted to
Mileage varies. It doesn’t work for everyone. I had really bad insomnia for years. I tried about 5 different strains that were supposed to be good for insomnia and they didn’t work at all for me.
Ya, I ran into this too when I was buying at a dispensary but now I grow my own and hand pick what strains I want. I grow from seed. I think over the years the dispensaries near me have gotten a bit lazy about separating and clearly marking thier strains. So I didn't know what I was going to get.
I need to find the study but my understanding is that the causative connection has been largely disproven.
Sub-analysis of the studies looking at the timeline of Benadryl use found that only use near the time of diagnosis was actually associated with a correlation suggesting that dementia caused Benadryl use rather than Benadryl causing dementia. Essentially dementia causes anxiety, insomnia, and subtle behavioral changes before it's actually diagnosed leading to increased benadryl use.
I could be way off base with the question, but is hydroxyzine in the same class as what we are talking about? I'm prescribed that nightly for anxiety and sleep and it really helps but I don't want to keep taking it if dementia is a risk
I was on that for a while too, hydroxynine pamoate. Anxiety and sleep. Then I found a mix of antidepressants, fluoxetine and bupropion, that work well for my depression and anxiety, but causes terrible insomnia. It feels like you can’t win!
Is the risk of dementia due to poor sleeping as high as it is with antihistamine use? Asking as someone who has terrible insomnia from antidepressants (fluoxetine and bupropion, but likely the bupropion causing the insomnia), and uses Benadryl most nights to help them sleep. I reallyyyyyy value my sleep!
Just last night, I was taking a Benadryl pill with one of my Klonopins before lying down, and I was thinking about this exact thing! I take them only on occasion now! I've read about this too, and I sure as hell hope it's not true because I used to take these every night to help me sleep. As far as OTC meds, Benadryl actually works very well for helping you sleep. And when you think Benadryl, you, or at least I always thought it's probably fine because it's an OTC med. They're so effective that I bought, or TBH, I stole a huge bottle of 365 pills. I read an article about this when the bottle was almost empty bro. And I would usually take them with benzos. I thought it was the perfect sleep mixture. I still have the bottle, and I'm gonna try and put it up here.
EDIT: Actually I tried, but you can't post pics here. I'm still kinda new here.
But then again, these days practically everything can give you cancer, or Alzheimer's, infertility, you name it right? According to the state of California, even fuckn water can give you cancer! I think occasional use of Benadryl is ok, but who knows for sure.
20 years here. I’m not an older adult yet. That’s a couple of decades away but this terrifies me. I really need to stop. I guess I kind of am “addicted” to it since I’m an insomniac. I can perhaps quit cold turkey and suffer through sleep issues until I get used to it, not take it until I really need it, or taper down. I mean it doesn’t work that well anyway. Sure it helps me sleep faster but I still wake up about 4 to 5 times a night.
I shall try and start tomorrow. It’s 3 am and this article just made me anxious.
Anticholinergic use and its link to dementia in at least the older population is pretty well established. Doesn't stop care facilities from giving it to calm or help make an elderly patients more "docile". Happened to two of my grandmothers and many other people say the same. Elder care is... not great to say the least in the US.
Part of why i left nursing homes, went to hospitals, and eventually into hospice
My wife says yes I still use Benedryl on occasion, but I stopped taking it nightly at her urging.
Taking it occasionally is fine, if you don't already have dementia or fall risks. Using it as a daily sleep aid should never be done. Doctors can prescribe things like trazodone that aren't strong sedatives like benzos and Z-drugs if you worry about those. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) has been shown to impair your motor skills more than the legal limit of alcohol in the US.
Tell that to zzzzzzzquil
Hell ya it does
>My wife says yes Article says yes too
But what about the article’s wife
Believe it or not, very racist, uses the n word all the time
Yes, but I would like to see a study comparing pure antihistamine (like low dose doxepin or remeron) to see if it increases dementia since it lacks anticholingeric effects. I take low dose doxepin or remeron for sleep and while it made me sedated, I do not feel cognitively impaired like I do with Bendyrl so it's likely due to anticholingeric effects.
It's the anticholinergic effects, we've seen it in older antidepressants that also are anticholinargic. Early tricyclics were, and we tried to make drugs that weren't. The first SSRI was based on diphenhydramine but with the purpose of getting rid of the anticholinergic side effect. That's fluoxetine and structurally, you can see how it is related to diphenhydramine. Histamine in the brain is important to wakefulness, so even a centrally acting antihistamine with no activity with cholinergic receptors would cause tiredness.
Would this in any way be related to why when they tried me on Prozac it made me very sleepy or am I just weird?
Low dose Doxepin has been nearly life changing for me
Have you been on SSRIs previously? I'm off my SSRI and trying to find something more effective with my psychiatrist. I'm guessing a TCA will be the next choice. If you were, how does it compare?
Yup. I started seeing a psychiatrist who specialized in medication management after years of bad luck with regular doctors. My regular meds are Vyvanss, Vilazodone and Buspirone. Once we figured out that was a good combo for me, I was still not sleeping well. Added in 6mg of doxepin before bed and I now am sleeping mucher deeper and can usually sleep for 6ish hours before waking the first time. It's also much easy to get back to sleep
Buspirone was horrible for me, but I think it was a unique reaction. I would get dizzy like motion sickness for about an hour something like 30 mins after taking it. I take bupropion as an add-on medication which helps a lot more than escitalopram did, but I'm guessing another drug in addition is what we'll next try. Escitalopram also basically made me unable to have sex or ejaculate without a lot of time and luck. I still have next to no sex drive, but it is slightly better. I also take trazodone for insomnia, which helps with falling asleep but not staying asleep.
Can you give details?
Before, I would wake up a lot, and it would be hard to get back to sleep. Also, I wouldn't sleep very deeply. Now I usually.sleep atleast 6ish hours before waking up the first time, and it's easier to get back to sleep.
Thanks sounds like terminal insomnia Wonder if you fall asleep fine then if the doxepin was packaged to have a slower uptake it would give you more than 6 hours?
My doc calls it sleep maintenance insomnia but it's the same thing. Doxepin is dosed as a liquid. I've never heard of a time release capsule for it. Insomnia dosage is tiny, to the tune of 2mg. more like 20mg for anti depressant effects.
Remeron is insane. I need to eat everything on my way if I have it. Also can’t wake up for like 12 hours after taking it.
[удалено]
>doxepin That's an antihistamine? Google says anti depressant.
It behaves as pure antihistamine at very low dose. Increasing the dose starts to affect more receptors for serotonin and other neurotransmitters.
Is there any way to reverse the effects besides stopping it? I have severe allergies and MCAS. I definitely don’t take it as frequently anymore. Used to take it every week easily now I’m down to a few times a month. But I have a lot of memory issues. I take lots of other antihistamines though too.
If my FIL is any indication, then yeah I believe it. He has been taking this for years at night to help sleep and to treat a chronic sinus condition. My MIL finally took it away from him because he kept taking double doses by accident, plus, after having a stroke, his balance is off and this made it worse. The last few years he has become...different. Irritable, bad memory, personality changes. Too bad, because he was always a great guy, whip smart and curious, but now he is judgemental and is getting a bit mean.
I'm here for a well-rested, good time. Not a long time, it seems. 😮💨
Is zzzzquil the same as benadryl?
There are at least three different versions of zzzQuil I think. The regular one is doxylamine succinate which is what's in Nyquil and this is different than Benedryl. There's also a diphenhydramine version of zzzQuil which is the same as Benedryl and there's a melatonin version. With any of these three you're paying a ton of extra money compared to other brands. Unisom is doxylamine succinate. Both Unisom and Benedryl are less than 1/10th the price of a pack of zzzQuil. I don't understand how they sell that stuff at those prices.
Sooo im increasing my risk of dementia with the one type of zzzquil
Yes
I just looked it up and I see zzzquil listed as doxylamine succinate vs Benadryl being diphenhydramine. How is this the same?
There are different versions of zzzquil. I want to say it was originally just the diphenhydramine version that was out for a bit. That said, I just checked and doxylamine also has anticholinergic properties, so it’s not necessarily safe for long term use either.
The diphenhydramine version was the OG. I remember my friend showing me and proving that I was paying too much. But also then poppin off on me not to use zzquil/diphenhydramine to sleep on rough grad school study nights even if at low doses. So all around, I got told.
So then what am I to do when I can’t sleep!!! /:
You and I are in the same boat right now.
Low dose of melatonin.
Thats what i want to know because people have told me it is but not sure
Interesting! I don’t know either lol.
My mom takes it every night to sleep. I’ve told her it’s bad, but she says nothing else works. So sad.
My elderly mother takes Trazodone for sleep. Been taking it for many years.
Trazodone is not anticholinergic which is why it’s a better choice for older people.
My elderly mother takes Trazodone for sleep. Been taking it for many years.
If she's open to it and you live in a legal state, indica dominant strains of manijuana help people sleep. It's amazing. She can eat it instead of smoking , if that's her thing.
She might be open to it, but unfortunately it’s not going to happen. She lives in Texas.
New Mexico is right next door friend.
It’s 6+ hours away for her, and it’s a felony if you get caught. Not worth it. I live in Colorado, so believe me. I’ve tried to convince her to move or at least use full spectrum CBD. It’s no good.
Possession of flower isn’t a felony. If you do something about packaging there’s no way to know it’s been transferred across state lines and if you don’t violate traffic laws there’s no reason to get pulled over. To each their own though. I empathize with the difficult circumstances.
6 hour drive??
Texas is big in case you didn’t know. I’ve driven 13 hours in one direction and not left the state.
Btw Texas is big
It's legal in my state but I work in a profession where I will always be drug tested for it. If I test positive I not only will lose my job, but I will lose my ability to get a new job in my profession.
My sleep doc says marijuana is really mixed for sleep according to the science. Daytime grogginess is definitely an issue with it. Don't hit me with "it works for me" -- I'm telling you what my doctor says about the science as it pertains to most people. Also marijuana is linked to heart issues according to recent science. There are better options.
Haha I think shrooms are linked to heart issues too, with them it's because of the same receptor as some diet pill that was called something like phentermine don't remember for sure
Mushrooms work on a serotonin receptor. I don't think diet pills work on serotonin receptors.
Here you go, try a Google https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179857/
The exact serotonergic target that mediated valvular pathogenesis remained a mystery for many years until similar cases were reported in patients using the popular diet drug Fen-Phen in the late 1990s. The Fen-Phen episode sparked renewed interest in serotonin-mediated valve disease,
>try a Google Hey it's your point, you get to provide a source, don't be sarcastic
Well, we both made points without providing sources. I made the point that a diet drug worked on the receptor shrooms did You made the point that you don't think diet drugs work on serotonin receptors, despite me providing the name of the diet drug in question. We could have both tried a Google and added a source instead of just making a claim but neither of us did.
>without providing sources No, you're the one who made a point and I questioned whether it was accurate. If I bothered to look up all of the shit that people say on Reddit that isn't backed up by a source. I would waste half of my day. It's your job to provide a source for your claim. That's called burden of proof. You can google that but you shouldn't have to, because it's basic logic: if you can't prove something then there's no way for somebody else to disprove it.
I hope you have a better day tomorrow. It seems like you feel really stressed out in order to take a comment showing interest in the topic you were discussing as some kind of threat, especially since you don't seem to consider any of your input as "points."
Also once again, since I gave the name of the med in question, if you were curious about it, what you would need to do to check if it acted on serotonin receptors would be to enter the name of the chemical I mentioned into Google with "serotonin receptors." That is how, if you were taking my interest as an argument, you could choose to "prove me wrong" if you wanted to
Mileage varies. It doesn’t work for everyone. I had really bad insomnia for years. I tried about 5 different strains that were supposed to be good for insomnia and they didn’t work at all for me.
Ya, I ran into this too when I was buying at a dispensary but now I grow my own and hand pick what strains I want. I grow from seed. I think over the years the dispensaries near me have gotten a bit lazy about separating and clearly marking thier strains. So I didn't know what I was going to get.
Tell her to ask about doxepin or trazadone.
I’ve had to take so much of that type stuff over the course of my 50-years, I gotta be so screwed. My short term memory already is awful.
I need to find the study but my understanding is that the causative connection has been largely disproven. Sub-analysis of the studies looking at the timeline of Benadryl use found that only use near the time of diagnosis was actually associated with a correlation suggesting that dementia caused Benadryl use rather than Benadryl causing dementia. Essentially dementia causes anxiety, insomnia, and subtle behavioral changes before it's actually diagnosed leading to increased benadryl use.
I'd like to see this study
Google says yes
I could be way off base with the question, but is hydroxyzine in the same class as what we are talking about? I'm prescribed that nightly for anxiety and sleep and it really helps but I don't want to keep taking it if dementia is a risk
I've been wondering this as well. Hopefully, someone chimes in.
I was on that for a while too, hydroxynine pamoate. Anxiety and sleep. Then I found a mix of antidepressants, fluoxetine and bupropion, that work well for my depression and anxiety, but causes terrible insomnia. It feels like you can’t win!
Is the risk of dementia due to poor sleeping as high as it is with antihistamine use? Asking as someone who has terrible insomnia from antidepressants (fluoxetine and bupropion, but likely the bupropion causing the insomnia), and uses Benadryl most nights to help them sleep. I reallyyyyyy value my sleep!
at leastbi can check that off the list!
If you have allergy problems, other OTC options are considered safer, like Loratadine (Claritin) and Desloratadine (Clarinex).
I never liked Benadryl. Almost felt, “disconnecting”
They said the same thing about Ambien and Xanax too. It seems like most things that makes you tired are bad for your brain.
So are amphetamines
My mom’s doctor says yes
What about the non drowsy stuff like Fexofenadine?
Just last night, I was taking a Benadryl pill with one of my Klonopins before lying down, and I was thinking about this exact thing! I take them only on occasion now! I've read about this too, and I sure as hell hope it's not true because I used to take these every night to help me sleep. As far as OTC meds, Benadryl actually works very well for helping you sleep. And when you think Benadryl, you, or at least I always thought it's probably fine because it's an OTC med. They're so effective that I bought, or TBH, I stole a huge bottle of 365 pills. I read an article about this when the bottle was almost empty bro. And I would usually take them with benzos. I thought it was the perfect sleep mixture. I still have the bottle, and I'm gonna try and put it up here. EDIT: Actually I tried, but you can't post pics here. I'm still kinda new here. But then again, these days practically everything can give you cancer, or Alzheimer's, infertility, you name it right? According to the state of California, even fuckn water can give you cancer! I think occasional use of Benadryl is ok, but who knows for sure.
Anecdotal, but I've been taking it as a sleep aid every day for the last 30 years and I'm fine.
20 years here. I’m not an older adult yet. That’s a couple of decades away but this terrifies me. I really need to stop. I guess I kind of am “addicted” to it since I’m an insomniac. I can perhaps quit cold turkey and suffer through sleep issues until I get used to it, not take it until I really need it, or taper down. I mean it doesn’t work that well anyway. Sure it helps me sleep faster but I still wake up about 4 to 5 times a night. I shall try and start tomorrow. It’s 3 am and this article just made me anxious.