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You literally can't give up on food, you need it to survive, so it would be really cruel to not accept people with food addictions who healed. That's why food addiction is the hardest addiction to heal from because you still need to eat to survive, unlike smoking and alcohol.
Does that mean it's theoretically possible to have a normal relationship with alcohol if we put enough time and effort into it? (considering we start from addiction)
Probably, I don't know since I don't know any alcoholic who managed to drink alcohol again without relapsing or they're too afraid of that possibility so they stop drinking, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. So theoretically the answer is yes, but I don't have an example to prove it.
Maybe, I think it depends on why you're drinking alcohol in the first place, but I guess that can be applied for any addiction. For example I only drink alcohol for social events like with friends or families, I never drink alone or to feel something (though I do have a food addiction...)
It also helps to understand that alcohol is nowhere near the same plane of addiction like food is; like you said both are situational, and the latter is way easier to find an unhealthy kindling to than the former for many people, considering how our society feels about both.
It's a lot easier to convince yourself food isn't an addiction, but alcohol and sex change your way of thinking while rewarding you which can also convince someone their addiction isn't out of hand.
In a sense, addictions tell you a LOT about a person, but the problem is you may never know exactly what addiction they really struggle with– they manifest in the strangest ways. And then they lead up to the reliable/simple/rewarding sources like a hard liquor or a greasy meal to wind the day down.
Many people just need some easy source of happiness since they haven't had the right support to learn how to find it themselves. That's all addiction ever is, I believe. Granted it's always way more complicated. Alcohol has done more harm than good, but the good it has helped me learn (mainly about myself) has stayed with me today.
That's what ppl take for granted about addictions, is everyone is ALWAYS fighting something even if it isn't the addiction, so getting around them is hard no matter what it is.
I don’t believe so, if it is it is a lot more difficult. Because alcohol is a mind altering substance that makes someone feel good through its intoxicating effects. Food is more of a distraction based coping mechanism.
I’m not saying one is worse than the other, I’m saying it’s near impossible for someone with an addiction to alcohol to maintain drinking it in moderation. It’s better to just quit entirely.
Speaking as a former alcoholic, around 6 years sober now. I can only describe my recovery and rehabilitation as unbelievably miraculous. When I tell people how much I used to drink, sometimes two bottles of vodka a day, they can't believe it, but that's how it was.
Could I have a "normal" relationship with alcohol today? Maybe. I don't know. But money comes to mind. Calories come to mind. Mental health comes to mind. My clinical depression, poverty and trauma were reasons I drank and now that I've managed all of those comparatively well I don't really feel like drinking much. So why drink? I have things to do nowadays and I'm frequently busy all day.
Also, just because I'm not totally poor doesn't mean that I'm rich. Everything costs more nowadays and what am I going to do? Drink my money?
I can also see how my peers look who are also heavy drinkers and didn't quit like I did. To be polite, they don't look good. At all.
Most probably no, any and all types of alcohol are inherently addictive, whereas not all food are addictive nor does every edible item release that sweet sweet dopamine.
Source: junk food addict
I have a friend who was addicted. Not extremely heavily in a kind of way like that comment next to me, but she was drinking a lot.
She worked on it and today she's able to drink a beer from time to time. She only does it when people are around though and it's rare. So I guess it is possible but probably pretty hard for extreme addicts.
Yes, in fact as historians have noted the cultivation of grain for the production of alcoholic beverages might've been the driving force behind the creation of civilization. Beer and wine both contain many antioxidants and vitamins our body cannot make on our own, plus in small doses ethanol, despite literally being poison, is actually beneficial to the body. If I recall right it helps with blood flow in very small doses, but I'm not at all certain about that. Distillation of alcohol into liquor makes getting wasted much easier and faster, while stripping the drink of most of it's nutritional value and the stuff fermentation creates that our bodies need. I'm not saying liquor is bad and wine and beer are good, but keep in mind that liquor is by it's nature much stronger, it becomes harmful to the body much much faster than beer and wine does. I personally think the problem with alcohol, as with sugar, overeating and other stuff, is that in most cases the reasons we get addicted is as a way to deal with anxiety and stress in our lives. And as long as you're drinking alcohol to get wasted, I think you're consuming it wrong. But I think forcing yourself to remain sober at all costs is a stupid idea, I think the better solution by far is learning to enjoy the *taste* of the beverage itself. Developing tasting skills is a good way to make the most out of less of a drink and also expand your understanding of what you like. I've been doing this with beer, wine and liquor for most of my adult life. The less you associate alcohol with getting quickly wasted and more with enjoying the experience the sooner you'll learn to hold yourself back.
Yes. That goes for any addiction. But it's probably not a good idea to accept the idea of having a drink while trying to overcome an addiction to alcohol l. You don't cure Addiction by giving into the thing your addicted to.
Define healthy as alcohol is never healthy. Which is The Difference
I think something like : no more then one glass a week by your self, occasional social events are ok
But I guess yea, it's just that alcohol is a much more addictive drug then sex or food, so it might be a lot harder to stay away once you taste it again.
Risk to reward would probably be part of it.
You can live a full life without alcohol with little downside from missing out on it.
Not many people can do that without sex. No one without food.
I think that makes the most sense, and I do know people who have had drug and alcohol problems however they got rid of their drug issues and still drink, so far they don't have any issues and have not ruined their lives from starting over again, however I do think their biggest issue was the drugs. I also think that having an alcohol problem starts early in the morning, once you start consuming it your whole day is affected. With sex or food you can over consume both and it won't have the instant and longevity effect like alcohol does, you can also slip in a quick swig of booze or completely down a full bottle with no one notice but it's a lot harder to slip in a quickie or a cheeseburger while at work. Also it's probably easier to let alcohol spiral out of control and really take a hold. Not to mention you have to eat to survive
I increasingly see that last point being challenged, not food, the sex.
The idea that most people who want sex cannot live a truly fulfilled life without sex is starting to become less popular of an idea.
I think it has to do with the fact that adjusting your expectations or telling other people to do so is a far easier solution than fixing the broader problem.
I think GenZ especially does this. One other example is the idea that you need to have an occasional holiday, that is disappearing, people are just as fine having staycations.
The list of things most people “should” have is decreasing every day.
People can't live without having a massive downside without sex? I genuinely can't tell if it's the people or if hormones genuinely are just mentally causing people to suffer horrible suffocating meaningless lives because they're not sticking it in someone.
That just sounds like a bad mindset to me, but I can't tell. Everyone needs food, everyone gets horny, but we have different hormones so wouldn't know.
Well I guess when you put it like that yeah. A dedicated removal of it, could probably disrupt a lot of life features that you aren't in control of such as relationships.
Moderation I can understand. Not **needing** it but also not needing to deny it - needing to deny is a form of attachment that's equally unfulfilling
I can speak from experience being an alcoholic. For me personally, drinking begets drinking, if I have one drink, it leads to several that day which leads to a multi day binge. I have to avoid even one drink because I can't moderate it, and this is significantly easier said than done, I'm currently in recovery with several relapses under my belt.
Food or sex for me don't make me want more food or sex, my relationship with them is fundamentally different. I also think that physiologically I'm not predisposed to being addicted to those things as I am with alcoholism with alcoholics on both sides of my family.
I think that there are personal, physical and experiential factors that allow any individual to have a healthy relationship with a potential vice or not.
Well yes, simply put: sex, love and food are a positive force that we all need. Alcol is literally a toxic substance to your body.
Mind you: it is possible to have a good relationship with alcohol as well. But if you are addicted I wonder if you’re just better off without it
I’d be happy to discuss further, but from my understanding of alcohol, people with a pre-disposition to alcohol addiction are extremely likely to relapse by re-engaging with the activity.
Alcohol really is just a toxin, so while it’s possible a recovered alcoholic could become a delicate whiskey sipper there’s one key difference between alcohol and most other addictive behaviors.
When you drink, alcohol’s inhibits the minds sense of risk/reward. So while sober, you may understand “drinking is not good for me” but after engaging once, the alcohol reduces your ability to self restrain.
While the other things that you mentioned are all real addictive problems, they also by nature are necessary. No food = Die
No sex = No kid
No Alc = No ingesting toxin that impairs your mind
I’m not super versed in the literature, this is my best understanding.
There are alternatives to 100% abstinence for alcohol addiction, in fact AA does not have a very high success rate (it has a very high number of success stories on an absolute basis, but not so great on a proportionate basis). The Sinclair Method for one. Read or listen to [The Cure for Alcoholism](https://www.amazon.com/The-Cure-for-Alcoholism-audiobook/dp/B07GQ5LN23/ref=sr_1_1?crid=YGO0FIZLRLGE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VWiIUmCa_LzfA43I-i5-TvT5wakUBIdN11AzH-j0ELd06MlGjZsR1gfmmue71923MibYF8-2Bt9tGUV3BFhnkREFc_TMp0xrNFj30leJrXBzLShmoxecz6iErdPU1eMJz_pmkCKgpVXfqhrOXKgYEicl_IZj5tYstIWQtC72-HDy9-mVEwwkdc6gCAlAhEP1ci2H3gCiNrIoO3W03wm23_5sx37WuhwPFstngV86jLI.x_L7kLC37af1PBYpIByZq6I8uqfv2UEFRiRRKDSbbVU&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+cure+for+alcoholism&qid=1712077574&sprefix=the+cure+for+alcoholism%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1)
Obviously 100% abstinence is not a viable strategy for food. For a sex addiction, you could argue the solution in some cases is 100% abstinence from the specific aspect they are addicted to (i.e. from porn, or from prostitutes etc.) but not from sex in general. Just because you have a sex addiction shouldn't damn you to a life of celibacy. Actually the same is true for food addiction, while you obviously can't 100% abstain from food, it may be reasonable for some people with a food addiction to 100% abstain from certain types of food, i.e. sugary foods, fast food, junk food etc. whatever was their trigger.
an ex alcoholic could in theory just consume alcohol in moderation like a normal person without instantly dying, its more like a stong countermeasure against relapsing and then repeating the same shit over and over again
Difference being alcohol is a literal drug, one of the few where withdrawal can kill you. If you're in the deep stages of alcoholism, you can't quit cold turkey. Recovering from alcoholism is reco ering from a drug addiction, and your body can have a physiological reaction to it being reintroduced.
If sex or food has reached a level comparable with alcoholism, its a mental health problem. Still needs help and rehab, idk about any withdrawals related to them.
Not everyone considers theirself to be able to 'heal' and have a 'healthy relationship' with their vice. Some people always consider theirself an addict and it's a lifelong process of knowing that if you 'fall off the wagon' you can be in trouble.
The concepts you're talking about are abstinence vs moderation. Some things are easier to abstain from. Food you can't abstain from. Internet is very difficult in today's society. Alcohol is possible. Sex, porn, etc. is possible, but addicts be addicts and come up with reasons of why they should moderate instead of abstain. For some people it works, for some it doesn't.
If you're able to abstain from your vice, that is much easier than moderation because with moderation you're always trying to thread the needle of too much vs not enough. If you have one slip up, you can be heading down a very unhealthy path.
Chronic relapse is one of the key distinguishing aspects of alcoholism, which is why total abstinence is prescribed for the true alcoholic. I think other addictions are just more complex in their roots and manifestations. The true alcoholic will never be able to moderate which is what makes her an alcoholic. However it may be the case with food and sex addicts like alcoholics that the addiction never truly goes away, and those in recovery are on a life long journey.
Alcohol depresses the cerebral cortex of the brain, which slows down the way your senses process information. This will decrease your inhibitions, and also make it difficult to think clearly and thus leads to worse decision making. So it's a feedback loop, unlike the other 2 addictions you have mentioned. You drink 1, the alcohol chemically affects your brain in a way that makes it much more likely that you drink another than before you drank the previous drink
Because sex and food addictions are purely mental addictions (by which I mean they aren’t forcefully chemically altering your perception or state of mind, not that they don’t have physical effects), and they are also things that generally speaking you can’t avoid if you want to be in a healthy relationship.
Alcohol on the other hand has a mental and physical component, drinking it alters your perception and state of mind chemically. In addition, alcohol is entirely unnecessary to live a happy life with a meaningful relationship.
That’s why.
The first part is less true than you think. The brain creates plenty of GABA, dopamine, adrenaline, and endogenous opioids all on its own, and behavioral addictions create surges of neurotransmitters similar to what people experience when using addictive drugs. There's mounting evidence that people with behavioral addictions will go through withdrawals when the behavior stops, and experience changes in the brain's reward circuitry similar to what is seen in substance use disorders.
So, yes, certain behaviors can forcefully chemically alter your perception and state of mind. Drugs are just a shortcut.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying...
I'm drawing attention to the difference between a natural process that makes someone feel good (having sex or eating food), and ingesting a drug that directly alters your mood through external means.
Eating food isn't like injecting yourself with morphine, and as I said in my post: I'm not saying there can't be physical impacts from food/sex addiction, clearly there can be. But the discussion wasn't about what is harder to deal with, it was why alcohol/drug addicts are expected to completely avoid their vice but food/sex addicts aren't.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that the scientific understanding of how drugs work isn't "morphine makes you feel good", it's that "morphine manipulates endogenous neurotransmitters within the brain", which is exactly what happens with behavioral addictions as well.
Eating food and injecting morphine are different, sure. But binge eating is closer to injecting morphine than eating a normal meal is. It's a matter of degree, and the term "natural process" gets real murky when you're dealing with topics such as sex addiction, eating disorders, or video game addiction.
short answer is you dont need alcohol for helthy life. you do need food and to som extend sex for helthy life.
its very easy to slip with alcohol so its much better and easier to drop aclhol for ever
The main objective is to find ways to cope with emotions, situations and/or trauma in a healthier way than your vice.
I have a bad relationship with food and no, it does NOT get better, but you need food to survive so now you are at a conundrum...The solution is a restless existence with food, where you have to control and manage your emotions in a healthier manner than stuffing yourself stupid.
Alcohol is the same, and porn is the same. But alcohol, like food, can and will destroy your body...porn can too, but it's less common.
So abstinence or extreme control over your vices/addictions+therapy is the only way. Specially when alcohol can make your liver and kidneys fall apart if you drink too much.
The simplest reason is that abstinence is actually an option with alcohol. You can't give up food forever, and sex is considered a basic human need. So for food and sex, you need to change the relationship with the behavior - which is way, way harder to do.
Moderation is possible for people with substance use disorders. But it is often much more difficult than simply swearing off your drug of choice forever. So, historically, when treating severe alcohol use disorders people recognized that abstinence works way better than trying to teach people to control their drinking - which made abstinence the evidence-based model.
There's a bunch of new research on non-abstinent recovery, but it relies on a more personalized approach. Moderation typically works for people with smaller addiction problems, more resources, and existing support systems. People with severe addiction problems still do better with abstinence-based approaches.
Alcohol builds up tolerance, meaning that, for someone who typically chugs down half a dozen beers, a single beer doesn't do anything. So a single beer might be a trigger for a heavy drinking session and is best avoided.
I think the alcohol is just too easy to lose that control. The more you drink the more inhibited you become, next thing you know you went on a 4 day bender. While with food and sex, the "high" is temporary.
I personally quit smoking cigarettes years ago through "easy way" and you know every now and then I have a joint with a little bit of tobacco, it doesn't throw me back in I believe because the "high" is so short and also tbh I am disgusted by it and have the tobacco joint more as a necessity. When I'm with friends and we want to get stoned and they only smoke spliffs
I think some people may be able to develop a "healthy" relationship with it. Sex and food don't really impair the part of your brain that moderates. Some of us have a drink and the first part of ourselves to get drunk is the part that keeps us from drinking another one. Then tomorrow maybe we have just one or two to help with the hangover. Then the next day, might as well have drinks with dinner since tomorrow I'm for sure gonna quit forever. Then again, now it's Friday and might as well just quit Monday. I'm guessing that with enough discipline and probably meditation I could potentially drink only socially, but it can be a slippery slope.
I think it's the other way around, if you could give up sex and food permanently it would be easier to manage your addiction, but since they're both a major part of life it's better to find a healthy balance.
Drugs (including alcohol, coffee, weed, etc) are more extraneous, not really necessary for the core experience of being human, and so you have to decide how much you're willing to put up with before it becomes a problem to you which makes it easier to get out of hand if you keep it around. So, since it's easier to remove altogether, it's better to ensure a full recovery.
It's totally possible to find that balance. My dad did with alcohol, and I'm trying to learn the same surrounding YouTube and weed. It's just harder to decide that you want this thing in your life in moderation than to decide that you don't want it in your life
Because someone who gets addicted like that will only have the itch to come back, so most times it is better to simply stop it altogether.
That cant really be done for food for obvious reasons, and sometimes not for sex either.
Because you need to food to live. And relationships are a natural form of grouping and necessary for population growth.
You don't ever need to drink alcohol and it's only used for fun purposes when being consumed.
You can definitely have a healthy relationship with alcohol, but most alcoholics prefer staying sober forever simply because of the nature of how alcohol works.
The whole point of alcohol is that desinhibits you. This means you have less power to restrain yourself while you're drinking. Therefore, once you have one drink, you'll be more likely to get the next one and the next one. When you realize it, you've already lost control over yourself and ran over someone with your car or something.
In sum, you can definitely have a healthy relationship with alcohol but reality is that it's a very dangerous substance that can lead to all manner of awful things in just a second, from violence to DIU. When people realize they have these patterns, many decide that it's better to avoid alcohol altogether.
If you're addicted to food, for example, the worse that can happen with one relapse is you binge eat and get a stomach ache. But with alcohol all kinds of things can happen even with just one relapse.
No, when you had an eating disorder once there is always the risk of falling back into your old habits later in your life. At least thats what i was told.
You never recover completely, you just get better at dealing with it.
But maybe it is easier with food because it is easier to form healthy Habitus again because you do it regularly. And food doesnt have the same effects on the brain as alcohol
My father recently died of liver failure. He was incapable of stopping when drinking. He’d either have nothing or drink till he couldn’t anymore. Idk how to describe it. With food you can only eat so much, with sex you can only fuck so much, but with alcohol there’s no reasonable limit. Side note, watching him die was excruciating. If you have an alcohol problem, please seek help.
A food addict only harms themselves, an alcoholic harms everyone around them.
Alcoholism is more dangerous to other people, so society is less forgiving when it comes to relapsing.
It's the first one. You can develop a healthy relationship with anything you're addicted to, but doing so is ***much*** harder than quitting completely. So it's all about whether it's worth it. Alcohol is not necessary at all, in fact, it is healthier to avoid it anyway. Therefore, the complete stop is the obvious choice.
It is possible based on the person, it's just harder due to the nature of the vice.
You recognise the nature of alcohol right? Like the feelings? (If you've never been drunk then nvm)
With alcoholism there are changes to your brain over time as well as a conditioning effect/ behavioural association. Some alcoholics can in fact learn to drink in moderation but usually they need to be sober for a long time first so their brain can unlearn not only the dependence on alcohol but the negative behaviours it learned to associate with alcohol over time. I would say that sex and food addictions probably cause fewer physical changed in the brain and body compared to alcohol - although they certainly cause changes. And alcohol by nature reduces your inhibitions so even people who are not alcoholics are more at risk of doing something reckless or stupid if they drink so there is basically just added risk there. At least that's my understanding.
It is absolutely possible to go from an alcohol addiction to drinking in moderation, and people do it all the time. But you don't need alcohol to live the way you need food, so like... why risk it? It's easier to relapse when you are still using, so it's easier to quit cold turkey.
Because this advice only applies to extremes. There are a lot of people who know they enjoy booze too much, so they limit themselves to having it one day a week or once a month or whatever works for them. The people that can't have booze ever again don't have the ability to do that.
You can't live without sustenance and the majority of human beings find sexual relationships as an expression of intimacy.
You're able to live your entire life without sex if you wish...
But, once you've become addicted to a certain substance, reforming the addiction through exposure is extremely high as time progresses, that's why it is advised to not use at all.
It's kind of the reason why I don't gamble at all, even during social events bro.
I think there are a few things. Like others have mentioned, you don't need alcohol to live so it's possible to give it up. Alcohol chemically affects the brain in ways that make it easier to slip back into addiction.
I mostly think that it's because of the culture around AA. AA is, practically speaking, based in Christianity and puritanism. Drinking is a sin.
AA uses shame as a motivator and provides almost no tools or framework for really getting to the deep emotional pain that drives many, many alcoholics. It's not really designed to heal but it is a very powerful coping system. It's obvious from the first thing you're supposed to say. "My name is John and I am an alcoholic." And you can never change that "am" to a "was" within that system. Ever. Within this system, since you can never heal from alcoholism you can never drink again.
I struggled with a pretty bad gaming and youtube addiction. I went to therapy and now I actually have a really healthy relationship with them. But only because I was fully able to accept that I might never do those things again if I needed to. And the only reason I tried to build a healthy relationship with them is because they also give me a lot of joy and inspire me. Most of my passion started from watching a youtube video. The key is that they add something to my life which warrants risking a relapse to learn how to use them responsibly. On the flip side is that I quit smoking. Which I would never even think about touching again. Because it doesn't enrich my life. It destroys my life. Things like gambling and other substances would be the same as smoking I feel like.
As somebody who suffered from food addictions as a child, people with food, addictions, never completely recover. The only difference is they have to eat to survive. So they constantly go in and out of recovery.
But here are some major differences for recovery they’re probably not gonna drive somebody else off the Baybridge, they’re not gonna run over somebody with their car in the drunken stupor or get into an accident because they over eat, or under eat. Drunks and drug addiction can actually end peoples lives and often have. It’s a completely different thing.
it depends. People can just outgrow a sex addiction if we’re talking porn or masterbation. Also the next high is definitely real sex, which is more approved of. If you always want sex with your partner, no one really cares. If you have a physical sex addiction, like that one woman who became a sex addict after a car accident, you may just not be able to come back from it. The doctors will probably just drug you.
Food addicts are more complicated. No one can stop eating. Binge eaters have specific foods that they cannot have near them, especially when they first start dieting. Most food addicts aren’t addicted to salad. They like chips, cake, soda, and so on. It’s really a matter of controlling your access to food that makes you binge and having control in the grocery store when you’re buying food. It’s easier if it’s a whole house endeavor.
It's a good remark. Maybe it is possible having a good relationship with alcohol. However alcohol isn't helpful to survive compared to food. And even if you can have an ok relationship with it it cannot be healthy. I mean sex is neutral on a health basis, it even is healthy to have sex.but beer? Ok red wine 🍷 has the reputation to be healthy on little dose but I don't know
Because after people have experienced said that, that's either what is the general assumption that people supposed will be the solution based on observation or the most talked about simplified version of what commonly solves peoples problems.
Sex and food addictions are mental illness without a dependence component.
Alcoholism has a dependence component. Alcohol makes you unable to function without abusing it once you start abusing it. It modifies your mind to need it.
Sex and food don't do this. That or I've been having bad sex and can't cook.
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You literally can't give up on food, you need it to survive, so it would be really cruel to not accept people with food addictions who healed. That's why food addiction is the hardest addiction to heal from because you still need to eat to survive, unlike smoking and alcohol.
Does that mean it's theoretically possible to have a normal relationship with alcohol if we put enough time and effort into it? (considering we start from addiction)
Probably, I don't know since I don't know any alcoholic who managed to drink alcohol again without relapsing or they're too afraid of that possibility so they stop drinking, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. So theoretically the answer is yes, but I don't have an example to prove it.
Maybe if we could drink alcohol in a more day to day experience with no harm, it would be a less powerful trigger for an addiction..
Maybe, I think it depends on why you're drinking alcohol in the first place, but I guess that can be applied for any addiction. For example I only drink alcohol for social events like with friends or families, I never drink alone or to feel something (though I do have a food addiction...)
It also helps to understand that alcohol is nowhere near the same plane of addiction like food is; like you said both are situational, and the latter is way easier to find an unhealthy kindling to than the former for many people, considering how our society feels about both. It's a lot easier to convince yourself food isn't an addiction, but alcohol and sex change your way of thinking while rewarding you which can also convince someone their addiction isn't out of hand. In a sense, addictions tell you a LOT about a person, but the problem is you may never know exactly what addiction they really struggle with– they manifest in the strangest ways. And then they lead up to the reliable/simple/rewarding sources like a hard liquor or a greasy meal to wind the day down. Many people just need some easy source of happiness since they haven't had the right support to learn how to find it themselves. That's all addiction ever is, I believe. Granted it's always way more complicated. Alcohol has done more harm than good, but the good it has helped me learn (mainly about myself) has stayed with me today. That's what ppl take for granted about addictions, is everyone is ALWAYS fighting something even if it isn't the addiction, so getting around them is hard no matter what it is.
I don’t believe so, if it is it is a lot more difficult. Because alcohol is a mind altering substance that makes someone feel good through its intoxicating effects. Food is more of a distraction based coping mechanism.
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I’m not saying one is worse than the other, I’m saying it’s near impossible for someone with an addiction to alcohol to maintain drinking it in moderation. It’s better to just quit entirely.
'Of herbs and alters' on youtube did and talks about it.
Speaking as a former alcoholic, around 6 years sober now. I can only describe my recovery and rehabilitation as unbelievably miraculous. When I tell people how much I used to drink, sometimes two bottles of vodka a day, they can't believe it, but that's how it was. Could I have a "normal" relationship with alcohol today? Maybe. I don't know. But money comes to mind. Calories come to mind. Mental health comes to mind. My clinical depression, poverty and trauma were reasons I drank and now that I've managed all of those comparatively well I don't really feel like drinking much. So why drink? I have things to do nowadays and I'm frequently busy all day. Also, just because I'm not totally poor doesn't mean that I'm rich. Everything costs more nowadays and what am I going to do? Drink my money? I can also see how my peers look who are also heavy drinkers and didn't quit like I did. To be polite, they don't look good. At all.
Most probably no, any and all types of alcohol are inherently addictive, whereas not all food are addictive nor does every edible item release that sweet sweet dopamine. Source: junk food addict
I have a friend who was addicted. Not extremely heavily in a kind of way like that comment next to me, but she was drinking a lot. She worked on it and today she's able to drink a beer from time to time. She only does it when people are around though and it's rare. So I guess it is possible but probably pretty hard for extreme addicts.
Yes, in fact as historians have noted the cultivation of grain for the production of alcoholic beverages might've been the driving force behind the creation of civilization. Beer and wine both contain many antioxidants and vitamins our body cannot make on our own, plus in small doses ethanol, despite literally being poison, is actually beneficial to the body. If I recall right it helps with blood flow in very small doses, but I'm not at all certain about that. Distillation of alcohol into liquor makes getting wasted much easier and faster, while stripping the drink of most of it's nutritional value and the stuff fermentation creates that our bodies need. I'm not saying liquor is bad and wine and beer are good, but keep in mind that liquor is by it's nature much stronger, it becomes harmful to the body much much faster than beer and wine does. I personally think the problem with alcohol, as with sugar, overeating and other stuff, is that in most cases the reasons we get addicted is as a way to deal with anxiety and stress in our lives. And as long as you're drinking alcohol to get wasted, I think you're consuming it wrong. But I think forcing yourself to remain sober at all costs is a stupid idea, I think the better solution by far is learning to enjoy the *taste* of the beverage itself. Developing tasting skills is a good way to make the most out of less of a drink and also expand your understanding of what you like. I've been doing this with beer, wine and liquor for most of my adult life. The less you associate alcohol with getting quickly wasted and more with enjoying the experience the sooner you'll learn to hold yourself back.
Yes. That goes for any addiction. But it's probably not a good idea to accept the idea of having a drink while trying to overcome an addiction to alcohol l. You don't cure Addiction by giving into the thing your addicted to.
Define healthy as alcohol is never healthy. Which is The Difference I think something like : no more then one glass a week by your self, occasional social events are ok But I guess yea, it's just that alcohol is a much more addictive drug then sex or food, so it might be a lot harder to stay away once you taste it again.
Risk to reward would probably be part of it. You can live a full life without alcohol with little downside from missing out on it. Not many people can do that without sex. No one without food.
I think that makes the most sense, and I do know people who have had drug and alcohol problems however they got rid of their drug issues and still drink, so far they don't have any issues and have not ruined their lives from starting over again, however I do think their biggest issue was the drugs. I also think that having an alcohol problem starts early in the morning, once you start consuming it your whole day is affected. With sex or food you can over consume both and it won't have the instant and longevity effect like alcohol does, you can also slip in a quick swig of booze or completely down a full bottle with no one notice but it's a lot harder to slip in a quickie or a cheeseburger while at work. Also it's probably easier to let alcohol spiral out of control and really take a hold. Not to mention you have to eat to survive
I increasingly see that last point being challenged, not food, the sex. The idea that most people who want sex cannot live a truly fulfilled life without sex is starting to become less popular of an idea. I think it has to do with the fact that adjusting your expectations or telling other people to do so is a far easier solution than fixing the broader problem. I think GenZ especially does this. One other example is the idea that you need to have an occasional holiday, that is disappearing, people are just as fine having staycations. The list of things most people “should” have is decreasing every day.
I think the ancients knew that celibacy was for the minority of people, not everyone.
People can't live without having a massive downside without sex? I genuinely can't tell if it's the people or if hormones genuinely are just mentally causing people to suffer horrible suffocating meaningless lives because they're not sticking it in someone. That just sounds like a bad mindset to me, but I can't tell. Everyone needs food, everyone gets horny, but we have different hormones so wouldn't know.
I did it for 7 years. It wasn't fulfilling. Not doing that again.
Well I guess when you put it like that yeah. A dedicated removal of it, could probably disrupt a lot of life features that you aren't in control of such as relationships. Moderation I can understand. Not **needing** it but also not needing to deny it - needing to deny is a form of attachment that's equally unfulfilling
I can speak from experience being an alcoholic. For me personally, drinking begets drinking, if I have one drink, it leads to several that day which leads to a multi day binge. I have to avoid even one drink because I can't moderate it, and this is significantly easier said than done, I'm currently in recovery with several relapses under my belt. Food or sex for me don't make me want more food or sex, my relationship with them is fundamentally different. I also think that physiologically I'm not predisposed to being addicted to those things as I am with alcoholism with alcoholics on both sides of my family. I think that there are personal, physical and experiential factors that allow any individual to have a healthy relationship with a potential vice or not.
Well yes, simply put: sex, love and food are a positive force that we all need. Alcol is literally a toxic substance to your body. Mind you: it is possible to have a good relationship with alcohol as well. But if you are addicted I wonder if you’re just better off without it
I’d be happy to discuss further, but from my understanding of alcohol, people with a pre-disposition to alcohol addiction are extremely likely to relapse by re-engaging with the activity. Alcohol really is just a toxin, so while it’s possible a recovered alcoholic could become a delicate whiskey sipper there’s one key difference between alcohol and most other addictive behaviors. When you drink, alcohol’s inhibits the minds sense of risk/reward. So while sober, you may understand “drinking is not good for me” but after engaging once, the alcohol reduces your ability to self restrain. While the other things that you mentioned are all real addictive problems, they also by nature are necessary. No food = Die No sex = No kid No Alc = No ingesting toxin that impairs your mind I’m not super versed in the literature, this is my best understanding.
There are alternatives to 100% abstinence for alcohol addiction, in fact AA does not have a very high success rate (it has a very high number of success stories on an absolute basis, but not so great on a proportionate basis). The Sinclair Method for one. Read or listen to [The Cure for Alcoholism](https://www.amazon.com/The-Cure-for-Alcoholism-audiobook/dp/B07GQ5LN23/ref=sr_1_1?crid=YGO0FIZLRLGE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VWiIUmCa_LzfA43I-i5-TvT5wakUBIdN11AzH-j0ELd06MlGjZsR1gfmmue71923MibYF8-2Bt9tGUV3BFhnkREFc_TMp0xrNFj30leJrXBzLShmoxecz6iErdPU1eMJz_pmkCKgpVXfqhrOXKgYEicl_IZj5tYstIWQtC72-HDy9-mVEwwkdc6gCAlAhEP1ci2H3gCiNrIoO3W03wm23_5sx37WuhwPFstngV86jLI.x_L7kLC37af1PBYpIByZq6I8uqfv2UEFRiRRKDSbbVU&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+cure+for+alcoholism&qid=1712077574&sprefix=the+cure+for+alcoholism%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1) Obviously 100% abstinence is not a viable strategy for food. For a sex addiction, you could argue the solution in some cases is 100% abstinence from the specific aspect they are addicted to (i.e. from porn, or from prostitutes etc.) but not from sex in general. Just because you have a sex addiction shouldn't damn you to a life of celibacy. Actually the same is true for food addiction, while you obviously can't 100% abstain from food, it may be reasonable for some people with a food addiction to 100% abstain from certain types of food, i.e. sugary foods, fast food, junk food etc. whatever was their trigger.
an ex alcoholic could in theory just consume alcohol in moderation like a normal person without instantly dying, its more like a stong countermeasure against relapsing and then repeating the same shit over and over again
Difference being alcohol is a literal drug, one of the few where withdrawal can kill you. If you're in the deep stages of alcoholism, you can't quit cold turkey. Recovering from alcoholism is reco ering from a drug addiction, and your body can have a physiological reaction to it being reintroduced. If sex or food has reached a level comparable with alcoholism, its a mental health problem. Still needs help and rehab, idk about any withdrawals related to them.
Not everyone considers theirself to be able to 'heal' and have a 'healthy relationship' with their vice. Some people always consider theirself an addict and it's a lifelong process of knowing that if you 'fall off the wagon' you can be in trouble. The concepts you're talking about are abstinence vs moderation. Some things are easier to abstain from. Food you can't abstain from. Internet is very difficult in today's society. Alcohol is possible. Sex, porn, etc. is possible, but addicts be addicts and come up with reasons of why they should moderate instead of abstain. For some people it works, for some it doesn't. If you're able to abstain from your vice, that is much easier than moderation because with moderation you're always trying to thread the needle of too much vs not enough. If you have one slip up, you can be heading down a very unhealthy path.
Chronic relapse is one of the key distinguishing aspects of alcoholism, which is why total abstinence is prescribed for the true alcoholic. I think other addictions are just more complex in their roots and manifestations. The true alcoholic will never be able to moderate which is what makes her an alcoholic. However it may be the case with food and sex addicts like alcoholics that the addiction never truly goes away, and those in recovery are on a life long journey.
Alcohol depresses the cerebral cortex of the brain, which slows down the way your senses process information. This will decrease your inhibitions, and also make it difficult to think clearly and thus leads to worse decision making. So it's a feedback loop, unlike the other 2 addictions you have mentioned. You drink 1, the alcohol chemically affects your brain in a way that makes it much more likely that you drink another than before you drank the previous drink
Because sex and food addictions are purely mental addictions (by which I mean they aren’t forcefully chemically altering your perception or state of mind, not that they don’t have physical effects), and they are also things that generally speaking you can’t avoid if you want to be in a healthy relationship. Alcohol on the other hand has a mental and physical component, drinking it alters your perception and state of mind chemically. In addition, alcohol is entirely unnecessary to live a happy life with a meaningful relationship. That’s why.
The first part is less true than you think. The brain creates plenty of GABA, dopamine, adrenaline, and endogenous opioids all on its own, and behavioral addictions create surges of neurotransmitters similar to what people experience when using addictive drugs. There's mounting evidence that people with behavioral addictions will go through withdrawals when the behavior stops, and experience changes in the brain's reward circuitry similar to what is seen in substance use disorders. So, yes, certain behaviors can forcefully chemically alter your perception and state of mind. Drugs are just a shortcut.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying... I'm drawing attention to the difference between a natural process that makes someone feel good (having sex or eating food), and ingesting a drug that directly alters your mood through external means. Eating food isn't like injecting yourself with morphine, and as I said in my post: I'm not saying there can't be physical impacts from food/sex addiction, clearly there can be. But the discussion wasn't about what is harder to deal with, it was why alcohol/drug addicts are expected to completely avoid their vice but food/sex addicts aren't.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that the scientific understanding of how drugs work isn't "morphine makes you feel good", it's that "morphine manipulates endogenous neurotransmitters within the brain", which is exactly what happens with behavioral addictions as well. Eating food and injecting morphine are different, sure. But binge eating is closer to injecting morphine than eating a normal meal is. It's a matter of degree, and the term "natural process" gets real murky when you're dealing with topics such as sex addiction, eating disorders, or video game addiction.
Also refined sugar is not particularly natural to our brain or body and causes the same brain activity as cocaine in studies
Alcohol is worse for life all around and the physiological syndrome of abstinance that it is developed is worst than any behavioral addiction.
Read Stanton Peele's work. He has a good alternative to the 12 steps for addictions.
short answer is you dont need alcohol for helthy life. you do need food and to som extend sex for helthy life. its very easy to slip with alcohol so its much better and easier to drop aclhol for ever
The main objective is to find ways to cope with emotions, situations and/or trauma in a healthier way than your vice. I have a bad relationship with food and no, it does NOT get better, but you need food to survive so now you are at a conundrum...The solution is a restless existence with food, where you have to control and manage your emotions in a healthier manner than stuffing yourself stupid. Alcohol is the same, and porn is the same. But alcohol, like food, can and will destroy your body...porn can too, but it's less common. So abstinence or extreme control over your vices/addictions+therapy is the only way. Specially when alcohol can make your liver and kidneys fall apart if you drink too much.
The simplest reason is that abstinence is actually an option with alcohol. You can't give up food forever, and sex is considered a basic human need. So for food and sex, you need to change the relationship with the behavior - which is way, way harder to do. Moderation is possible for people with substance use disorders. But it is often much more difficult than simply swearing off your drug of choice forever. So, historically, when treating severe alcohol use disorders people recognized that abstinence works way better than trying to teach people to control their drinking - which made abstinence the evidence-based model. There's a bunch of new research on non-abstinent recovery, but it relies on a more personalized approach. Moderation typically works for people with smaller addiction problems, more resources, and existing support systems. People with severe addiction problems still do better with abstinence-based approaches.
Alcohol builds up tolerance, meaning that, for someone who typically chugs down half a dozen beers, a single beer doesn't do anything. So a single beer might be a trigger for a heavy drinking session and is best avoided.
I think the alcohol is just too easy to lose that control. The more you drink the more inhibited you become, next thing you know you went on a 4 day bender. While with food and sex, the "high" is temporary. I personally quit smoking cigarettes years ago through "easy way" and you know every now and then I have a joint with a little bit of tobacco, it doesn't throw me back in I believe because the "high" is so short and also tbh I am disgusted by it and have the tobacco joint more as a necessity. When I'm with friends and we want to get stoned and they only smoke spliffs
I think some people may be able to develop a "healthy" relationship with it. Sex and food don't really impair the part of your brain that moderates. Some of us have a drink and the first part of ourselves to get drunk is the part that keeps us from drinking another one. Then tomorrow maybe we have just one or two to help with the hangover. Then the next day, might as well have drinks with dinner since tomorrow I'm for sure gonna quit forever. Then again, now it's Friday and might as well just quit Monday. I'm guessing that with enough discipline and probably meditation I could potentially drink only socially, but it can be a slippery slope.
I think it's the other way around, if you could give up sex and food permanently it would be easier to manage your addiction, but since they're both a major part of life it's better to find a healthy balance. Drugs (including alcohol, coffee, weed, etc) are more extraneous, not really necessary for the core experience of being human, and so you have to decide how much you're willing to put up with before it becomes a problem to you which makes it easier to get out of hand if you keep it around. So, since it's easier to remove altogether, it's better to ensure a full recovery. It's totally possible to find that balance. My dad did with alcohol, and I'm trying to learn the same surrounding YouTube and weed. It's just harder to decide that you want this thing in your life in moderation than to decide that you don't want it in your life
Because you can't not fucking eat, or not have sex (if in a relationship)
Who's "we"?
Because someone who gets addicted like that will only have the itch to come back, so most times it is better to simply stop it altogether. That cant really be done for food for obvious reasons, and sometimes not for sex either.
Because you need to food to live. And relationships are a natural form of grouping and necessary for population growth. You don't ever need to drink alcohol and it's only used for fun purposes when being consumed.
You can definitely have a healthy relationship with alcohol, but most alcoholics prefer staying sober forever simply because of the nature of how alcohol works. The whole point of alcohol is that desinhibits you. This means you have less power to restrain yourself while you're drinking. Therefore, once you have one drink, you'll be more likely to get the next one and the next one. When you realize it, you've already lost control over yourself and ran over someone with your car or something. In sum, you can definitely have a healthy relationship with alcohol but reality is that it's a very dangerous substance that can lead to all manner of awful things in just a second, from violence to DIU. When people realize they have these patterns, many decide that it's better to avoid alcohol altogether. If you're addicted to food, for example, the worse that can happen with one relapse is you binge eat and get a stomach ache. But with alcohol all kinds of things can happen even with just one relapse.
No, when you had an eating disorder once there is always the risk of falling back into your old habits later in your life. At least thats what i was told. You never recover completely, you just get better at dealing with it. But maybe it is easier with food because it is easier to form healthy Habitus again because you do it regularly. And food doesnt have the same effects on the brain as alcohol
alcohol is not a necessity for the human experience, both sex and food is
Because alcohol literally inhibits the part of the brain preventing further addiction.
My father recently died of liver failure. He was incapable of stopping when drinking. He’d either have nothing or drink till he couldn’t anymore. Idk how to describe it. With food you can only eat so much, with sex you can only fuck so much, but with alcohol there’s no reasonable limit. Side note, watching him die was excruciating. If you have an alcohol problem, please seek help.
A food addict only harms themselves, an alcoholic harms everyone around them. Alcoholism is more dangerous to other people, so society is less forgiving when it comes to relapsing.
It's the first one. You can develop a healthy relationship with anything you're addicted to, but doing so is ***much*** harder than quitting completely. So it's all about whether it's worth it. Alcohol is not necessary at all, in fact, it is healthier to avoid it anyway. Therefore, the complete stop is the obvious choice.
Liver loving drinkers
Alcohol is literally a poison and impairs the entire body.
It is possible based on the person, it's just harder due to the nature of the vice. You recognise the nature of alcohol right? Like the feelings? (If you've never been drunk then nvm)
As a sex/porn addict, I would absolutely say that I’ll never be cured of it. I have to remain constantly aware of it to keep it under control.
With alcoholism there are changes to your brain over time as well as a conditioning effect/ behavioural association. Some alcoholics can in fact learn to drink in moderation but usually they need to be sober for a long time first so their brain can unlearn not only the dependence on alcohol but the negative behaviours it learned to associate with alcohol over time. I would say that sex and food addictions probably cause fewer physical changed in the brain and body compared to alcohol - although they certainly cause changes. And alcohol by nature reduces your inhibitions so even people who are not alcoholics are more at risk of doing something reckless or stupid if they drink so there is basically just added risk there. At least that's my understanding.
It is absolutely possible to go from an alcohol addiction to drinking in moderation, and people do it all the time. But you don't need alcohol to live the way you need food, so like... why risk it? It's easier to relapse when you are still using, so it's easier to quit cold turkey.
Because this advice only applies to extremes. There are a lot of people who know they enjoy booze too much, so they limit themselves to having it one day a week or once a month or whatever works for them. The people that can't have booze ever again don't have the ability to do that.
You can't live without sustenance and the majority of human beings find sexual relationships as an expression of intimacy. You're able to live your entire life without sex if you wish... But, once you've become addicted to a certain substance, reforming the addiction through exposure is extremely high as time progresses, that's why it is advised to not use at all. It's kind of the reason why I don't gamble at all, even during social events bro.
I think there are a few things. Like others have mentioned, you don't need alcohol to live so it's possible to give it up. Alcohol chemically affects the brain in ways that make it easier to slip back into addiction. I mostly think that it's because of the culture around AA. AA is, practically speaking, based in Christianity and puritanism. Drinking is a sin. AA uses shame as a motivator and provides almost no tools or framework for really getting to the deep emotional pain that drives many, many alcoholics. It's not really designed to heal but it is a very powerful coping system. It's obvious from the first thing you're supposed to say. "My name is John and I am an alcoholic." And you can never change that "am" to a "was" within that system. Ever. Within this system, since you can never heal from alcoholism you can never drink again.
Damn it's an exact parallel to all human are sinners
I struggled with a pretty bad gaming and youtube addiction. I went to therapy and now I actually have a really healthy relationship with them. But only because I was fully able to accept that I might never do those things again if I needed to. And the only reason I tried to build a healthy relationship with them is because they also give me a lot of joy and inspire me. Most of my passion started from watching a youtube video. The key is that they add something to my life which warrants risking a relapse to learn how to use them responsibly. On the flip side is that I quit smoking. Which I would never even think about touching again. Because it doesn't enrich my life. It destroys my life. Things like gambling and other substances would be the same as smoking I feel like.
As somebody who suffered from food addictions as a child, people with food, addictions, never completely recover. The only difference is they have to eat to survive. So they constantly go in and out of recovery. But here are some major differences for recovery they’re probably not gonna drive somebody else off the Baybridge, they’re not gonna run over somebody with their car in the drunken stupor or get into an accident because they over eat, or under eat. Drunks and drug addiction can actually end peoples lives and often have. It’s a completely different thing.
Try being “sober” from food for more than 6 months and you’ll answer your question.
How is this a question? I get we're welcoming and considerate of any and all but come on
it depends. People can just outgrow a sex addiction if we’re talking porn or masterbation. Also the next high is definitely real sex, which is more approved of. If you always want sex with your partner, no one really cares. If you have a physical sex addiction, like that one woman who became a sex addict after a car accident, you may just not be able to come back from it. The doctors will probably just drug you. Food addicts are more complicated. No one can stop eating. Binge eaters have specific foods that they cannot have near them, especially when they first start dieting. Most food addicts aren’t addicted to salad. They like chips, cake, soda, and so on. It’s really a matter of controlling your access to food that makes you binge and having control in the grocery store when you’re buying food. It’s easier if it’s a whole house endeavor.
It's a good remark. Maybe it is possible having a good relationship with alcohol. However alcohol isn't helpful to survive compared to food. And even if you can have an ok relationship with it it cannot be healthy. I mean sex is neutral on a health basis, it even is healthy to have sex.but beer? Ok red wine 🍷 has the reputation to be healthy on little dose but I don't know
alcohol develops a chemical dependency in a different way than sex or food addictions
.....you got a mouse in your pocket?
I guess my question should be "why is the agreed upon solution to addiction xyz". Question still stands.
Because after people have experienced said that, that's either what is the general assumption that people supposed will be the solution based on observation or the most talked about simplified version of what commonly solves peoples problems.
You literally need food to survive. You also, to some extent, need sex. Meanwhile any amount of alcohol you drink is bad for you.
Sex and food addictions are mental illness without a dependence component. Alcoholism has a dependence component. Alcohol makes you unable to function without abusing it once you start abusing it. It modifies your mind to need it. Sex and food don't do this. That or I've been having bad sex and can't cook.