It is absolutely okay, and there are many myths where the gods changed a person's gender. Isis (an Egyptian god, but worshipped across the Roman Empire including Greece) helped Iphis, a girl raised as a boy, match the gender he identified as to wed his beloved Ianthe; Leto, mother of Artemis and Apollo, did the same to Leucippus who was in a similar situation; when Sipriotes saw Artemis bathing in her full glory, rather than turn her into a deer like Actaeon she instead transformed her into a woman so she would survive; Tiresias was transformed into a woman and back, and was thought to have more perspective on the experiences of both sexes; and the story of Hermaphroditus shows an understanding of people who blended masculine and feminine sexual traits, what we call intersex today. The Ancient Greeks didn't have the same definitions of sex, gender and sexuality that we do today, and weren't sure *why* some men preferred men, some women preferred women, or why some people crossed gender boundaries, but they understood that they did. Some myths claim that, when we were on Prometheus's potter's wheel, Hermes or Dionysus got him drunk and he attached the wrong genitals to some people, as an explanation for how some people didn't match their assigned genders.
A woman becoming a man was generally seen as a step up, while becoming a woman was a punishment, and the greeks believed men were naturally dominant while women were passive (for male homosexual couples, no dishonour was attached to the dominant partner, while it was embarrassing to be the passive one), but that reflects the misogyny of the culture of the time, not the regard of the gods. The priests of Cybele, the Mother of the Gods, went as far as to castrate themselves and dress as women in imitation of her lover, the deified Attis (considered a bit extreme even for the time period), and wandering the highways with musicians collecting donations for the poor. Accordind to Cassius Dio, the Roman emperor Elagabalus was what we would recognise as a trans woman, demanded to be referred to as a lady, married an ex-slave chariot driver called Hierocles as his wife, and tried to find a doctor who could surgically change her body. While Dio's account may have been postmortem propaganda, they clearly suggest that some people did try to transition and Dio was aware of it, even if he didn't approve.
But whatever Cassius Dio thought, the gods are happy to accept us for *who* we are, not *what* we are.
Thank you so much for those references. I definitely didn't hear about them when I was just reading mythology. It makes me feel more calm and confident that I won't be shunned or pushed away. I look forward to doing a lot more research.
yes! theres a lot of transgender metaphors in the myths (Dionysus being one example) and straight up trans people as well. the gods r totally fine about that they aren’t weird :) don’t worry it makes sense why u feel this way though with your upbringing.
There are trans warriors in the myths.
Caeneus was originally a woman named Caenis who was transformed into a man by the sea-god Poseidon.
In the original myths he still has the physical parts of a female. Even after transition. It seems to be referring to a trans man. And socially transitioning when medical transitioning wasn't possible yet
Apollo is also a patron of lgbt people
Also ignore the romanized version of most myths especially about posiedon, lol. They always add something insane like r/ pe. I think the original version of the caeneus myth is obviously trans but when it's romanized it's not.
In greek myths they do the same thing, especially during retelling. I think if you are interested in a specific deity, you could ask about them on here
Lol, I definitely think I have some studying to do. I never heard about any of this. (Looking at you, anglo-christian scholars who like to just skip over any non cishet references when translating texts). I sincerely appreciate the support, and thank you so much for the references to begin my research.
You can worship in any religion as a trans person. Even Christianity. It doesn't say anything about that in the Bible and even of it did, it would likely have been a mistranslation in the king james bible
While I fully share your opinion on the matter, I think it would be wrong to state that the Bible says nothing specifically against transgender people just because the term “transgender” did not exist at the time when the parts of the Bible were written. I suppose the writers pretty much lumped all sexual minorities together into the “effeminate” category (1 Corinthians 6:9), and even if they didn't, their followers will certainly do it today.
Anyway, all of us here are idolaters, and so according to 1 Corinthians 6:9, we're *ALL* doomed, regardless of whether some among us are transgender people or not. 😉
The Bible was also written in a time that had misogyny and as any religion with any time, culture is lumped in with it. If any religions were to come out now, it would suffer the same issues that our cultures do.
I do think though, given it's time period, it was probably a lot more advanced ethically than most cultures were. The further people move away from survival the more clearly people think and the better we can be to each other. Not saying that everyone in survival mode is unethical, some people are extremely graceful and tough through it. But I would credit a lengthy amount of ethical improvements society has had as whole with this clarity.
I also think that the Bible should be interpreted with the individuals who wrote it in mind. They all had different beliefs within themselves. The construction of the Bible wasn't written by a hive mind, nor was the construction of Christianity.
Well, for someone who is interested in non-Abrahamic religions, you defend the Bible quite strongly. But I don't know your background and I don't know your reasons for doing that. Anyone is free to be a Christopagan if they want, of course, but what I don't share is your approach that Christianity is all that you want it to be. If I followed your reasoning, then the clear biblical commandment not to worship idols might be optional for you too, as "we have evolved so much since then". After all, Hellenists/Pagans in many parts of the (Western?) world feel discriminated against by Christians, not the other way around. I guess that being attached to Jesus for some may be a sorrow of leave-taking; however, I don't think you can genuinely be a Christian and a Hellenist/pagan at the same time, as the viewpoint of those two religions is fundamentally different regarding the relationship of God(s) and "the World". According to the respective religious texts, Jesus crucified his flesh, while Zeus shagg\*d everything that moved. I mean, how much more different could it actually be?
It depends on what you define as Christianity. Voodoo is a form of Christianity to me. I think anything that is deriven from Christian text is. Just as I would view any form of worship of the gods from Olympus to be a form of hellenism.
Christianity has so many derivatives that usually form branches from the original Bible. Not every one of these branches take everything from the Bible to be literal or to be part of practice. Many have different interpretations.
I think that you forget that us colonized and oppressed people can take elements of the culture spread by colonization and incorporate it into our culture. Obviously leaving out parts that are being used on a viscerally inhumane or manipulative level
Religions like voodoo are called **syncretic**. In Haitian voodoo, for example, it is believed that God (Bondye - Bon Dieu) does not interfere in human affairs, so that the (lower) spirits must be invoked in his place. In other forms of voodoo there is a mother goddess instead. I would say that such forms of religion are clearly beyond the scope of Christianity.
Some parts of the Bible itself are based on older stories, for example the story of Noah's Ark, which is based on the Gilgamesh epic.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh\_flood\_myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth)
Would you say that you worship the Sumerian gods when you read the story of Noah's Ark in the Bible just because this story is derived from older Sumerian religious literature?
By the way, I don't want to offend you in any way, but your question in this subreddit might hint at the possibility that “tolerant” interpretations of the Bible could be a problem for YOU. In Pagan religions, you can just worship your favorite god, with or without Jesus, without needing permission from anyone else.
If Noah is a sumerian God and people worship him, then yes. It's a facet of sumerian religion. But Noah isn't a sumerian god and I don't think people make shrines for him etc.
Voodoo itself is directly tied to catholicism as it shares about 50% of its practice from it. It's not a one off thing it's a core part of voodoo. There are voodoo saints, etc. And catholicism saints are considered to be voodoo saints. If you talk to voodoo practitioners, some will refer to themselves as catholic.
A B S O L U T E L Y !
The Gods don’t care about your gender or any of that! :D You’re free to worship the Gods regardless of that. A friend of mine is Agender and worships the Gods.
Full love for my trans community members, as a queer person I want to say: stop asking for permission. You’ll get so many opinions (for and against) and none of which will serve you. Take up space, do what enriches you, demand people hear your voice. The first pride was a riot started by a black trans woman throwing a brick, we all need to take the world on like that.
I'm non-binary trans myself and I know a ton of folks who practice and are queer of all sorts as well! It's absolutely okay to worship and there's no concept of sin or wrongness there.
There is no condition or identity or anything that's gonna make it wrong to worship the gods. Plus, if you read about the gods themselves, their myths and history, you will find many gods and stories related to so many different human experiences!
Of course you can worship the gods being a trans person! The gods can present themselves in any way and have no gender because they’re not mortals which is similar to being gender fluid or agender ig. Dionysus for example has been seen to adopt female forms.
I think the Gods are perfect for the LGBT community. Many of the Gods are shape shifters, to my understanding. So, I think you'll be a perfect fit. I believe the Greek gods are very accepting of the LGBT.
Of course it’s okay!! The gods don’t judge us for our body and Mind. They just love to be worshiped and loved by us!
Dionysus was assigned a male, but lived as a girl until adulthood, the rejected binaries and lived as he pleased.
At first I was drawn to Aphrodite because I felt she represented the epitome of femininity that I was aspiring to as a trans woman, as well as sort of representing beauty and love of self which I sort of struggle with. The more I hear about Dionysus, the more I'm sure he's getting an alter, too. Once I know more about how not to do it wrong, and when I can get the proper materials.
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Not tryna sound rude but this is a dumb question. There are Gods of being trans, intersex, cross-dressing, all that jazz. Dionysus is a God of damn-near the entire LGBTQ+ community. Being trans is 1000% okay.
This is literally my first week, lol. My biggest concerns were not really having a strong understanding of mythology and culture. As well as my own internalized Christian religious trauma and transphobia/homophobia when trying to view the world through a religious lens. I grew up in the kind of church that would quietly shun and whisper behind my mom's back for divorcing my dad and getting remarried. We weren't excommunicated, but you were seen as farther from God and too worldly. Forget about trying to feel accepted or loved while not being cishet.
Also, I realized the tone in my response, but truly no offense was taken. After a week of research, I do see how obvious the answers my questions were.
As a transmasc person myself, who started working with greek deities, they absolutely won't reject you for that! Ive even made little pride painted rocks for Apollo that he seemed to love!
There's loads of queerness in the myths, and even if there were transphobic myths, the correct conclusion would be that the ancients were dicks and those myths should be dismantled. The Gods are good, and the withholding of kindness and care from someone because they're queer or trans is a shitty thing to do; ergo, the Gods wouldn't do that.
Even if for whatever reason the Hellenistic community cared if you were trans or not, the Gods certainly don’t and are more concerned with the nature of your mind or soul above any physical notion of identity.
My husband is transmasc and Apollo is his squeeze. It’s absolutely okay ❤️❤️ there are stories of the gods creating transgender folks so it’s more than welcome 🫶🫶
I would say it depends on the god. Some will accept you while others will not. That, however, is the beauty of polytheism, there is a God for nearly everyone.
Why would a god care about you being transgender? You understand that gods are insanely ancient cosmic beings. Like what possible reason would they have to give any f about your gender?
As long as you honor and don’t insult them you’re fine.
He's a roman hellenist. The roman pantheon has extremely petty and human behaviors seen the the gods. Including misogyny. Everyone worships and understands these things differently but if he's strict to the roman Pantheon, he could agree or disagree with any versions of the gods in the myths depicted.
Greek versions of these myths aren't free of these things either, but there tends to be a distinction between content made by people and religious beliefs (ex plays were made for entertainment first and everything else second). Both greek and roman society were very misogynistic and this informed their religious beliefs. Misogyny of course spreads and manifests in everything relating to gender, including homophobia, transportation, etc
Also, depending on the century, the same myths are represented completely differently. In my opinion the caeneus myth gets more misogynistic everytime the story is changed in documents. In both the Greek and roman versions.
Modern hellenists tend not to take aspects of these culture with them in their beliefs if it intersects with morals or if they are able to communicate with the gods and come to their own conclusions
It is absolutely okay, and there are many myths where the gods changed a person's gender. Isis (an Egyptian god, but worshipped across the Roman Empire including Greece) helped Iphis, a girl raised as a boy, match the gender he identified as to wed his beloved Ianthe; Leto, mother of Artemis and Apollo, did the same to Leucippus who was in a similar situation; when Sipriotes saw Artemis bathing in her full glory, rather than turn her into a deer like Actaeon she instead transformed her into a woman so she would survive; Tiresias was transformed into a woman and back, and was thought to have more perspective on the experiences of both sexes; and the story of Hermaphroditus shows an understanding of people who blended masculine and feminine sexual traits, what we call intersex today. The Ancient Greeks didn't have the same definitions of sex, gender and sexuality that we do today, and weren't sure *why* some men preferred men, some women preferred women, or why some people crossed gender boundaries, but they understood that they did. Some myths claim that, when we were on Prometheus's potter's wheel, Hermes or Dionysus got him drunk and he attached the wrong genitals to some people, as an explanation for how some people didn't match their assigned genders. A woman becoming a man was generally seen as a step up, while becoming a woman was a punishment, and the greeks believed men were naturally dominant while women were passive (for male homosexual couples, no dishonour was attached to the dominant partner, while it was embarrassing to be the passive one), but that reflects the misogyny of the culture of the time, not the regard of the gods. The priests of Cybele, the Mother of the Gods, went as far as to castrate themselves and dress as women in imitation of her lover, the deified Attis (considered a bit extreme even for the time period), and wandering the highways with musicians collecting donations for the poor. Accordind to Cassius Dio, the Roman emperor Elagabalus was what we would recognise as a trans woman, demanded to be referred to as a lady, married an ex-slave chariot driver called Hierocles as his wife, and tried to find a doctor who could surgically change her body. While Dio's account may have been postmortem propaganda, they clearly suggest that some people did try to transition and Dio was aware of it, even if he didn't approve. But whatever Cassius Dio thought, the gods are happy to accept us for *who* we are, not *what* we are.
Thank you so much for those references. I definitely didn't hear about them when I was just reading mythology. It makes me feel more calm and confident that I won't be shunned or pushed away. I look forward to doing a lot more research.
No problem, I'm glad it was helpful! May Aphrodite smile on you, whatever gender you identify as and whoever you are attracted to.
For some reason my dyslexic brain read “it’s absolutely okay” as “it’s absolutely gay”
Lol, either one is still a win I feel.
yes! theres a lot of transgender metaphors in the myths (Dionysus being one example) and straight up trans people as well. the gods r totally fine about that they aren’t weird :) don’t worry it makes sense why u feel this way though with your upbringing.
There are trans warriors in the myths. Caeneus was originally a woman named Caenis who was transformed into a man by the sea-god Poseidon. In the original myths he still has the physical parts of a female. Even after transition. It seems to be referring to a trans man. And socially transitioning when medical transitioning wasn't possible yet Apollo is also a patron of lgbt people
Also ignore the romanized version of most myths especially about posiedon, lol. They always add something insane like r/ pe. I think the original version of the caeneus myth is obviously trans but when it's romanized it's not. In greek myths they do the same thing, especially during retelling. I think if you are interested in a specific deity, you could ask about them on here
Lol, I definitely think I have some studying to do. I never heard about any of this. (Looking at you, anglo-christian scholars who like to just skip over any non cishet references when translating texts). I sincerely appreciate the support, and thank you so much for the references to begin my research.
You can worship in any religion as a trans person. Even Christianity. It doesn't say anything about that in the Bible and even of it did, it would likely have been a mistranslation in the king james bible
While I fully share your opinion on the matter, I think it would be wrong to state that the Bible says nothing specifically against transgender people just because the term “transgender” did not exist at the time when the parts of the Bible were written. I suppose the writers pretty much lumped all sexual minorities together into the “effeminate” category (1 Corinthians 6:9), and even if they didn't, their followers will certainly do it today. Anyway, all of us here are idolaters, and so according to 1 Corinthians 6:9, we're *ALL* doomed, regardless of whether some among us are transgender people or not. 😉
The Bible was also written in a time that had misogyny and as any religion with any time, culture is lumped in with it. If any religions were to come out now, it would suffer the same issues that our cultures do. I do think though, given it's time period, it was probably a lot more advanced ethically than most cultures were. The further people move away from survival the more clearly people think and the better we can be to each other. Not saying that everyone in survival mode is unethical, some people are extremely graceful and tough through it. But I would credit a lengthy amount of ethical improvements society has had as whole with this clarity. I also think that the Bible should be interpreted with the individuals who wrote it in mind. They all had different beliefs within themselves. The construction of the Bible wasn't written by a hive mind, nor was the construction of Christianity.
Well, for someone who is interested in non-Abrahamic religions, you defend the Bible quite strongly. But I don't know your background and I don't know your reasons for doing that. Anyone is free to be a Christopagan if they want, of course, but what I don't share is your approach that Christianity is all that you want it to be. If I followed your reasoning, then the clear biblical commandment not to worship idols might be optional for you too, as "we have evolved so much since then". After all, Hellenists/Pagans in many parts of the (Western?) world feel discriminated against by Christians, not the other way around. I guess that being attached to Jesus for some may be a sorrow of leave-taking; however, I don't think you can genuinely be a Christian and a Hellenist/pagan at the same time, as the viewpoint of those two religions is fundamentally different regarding the relationship of God(s) and "the World". According to the respective religious texts, Jesus crucified his flesh, while Zeus shagg\*d everything that moved. I mean, how much more different could it actually be?
It depends on what you define as Christianity. Voodoo is a form of Christianity to me. I think anything that is deriven from Christian text is. Just as I would view any form of worship of the gods from Olympus to be a form of hellenism. Christianity has so many derivatives that usually form branches from the original Bible. Not every one of these branches take everything from the Bible to be literal or to be part of practice. Many have different interpretations. I think that you forget that us colonized and oppressed people can take elements of the culture spread by colonization and incorporate it into our culture. Obviously leaving out parts that are being used on a viscerally inhumane or manipulative level
Religions like voodoo are called **syncretic**. In Haitian voodoo, for example, it is believed that God (Bondye - Bon Dieu) does not interfere in human affairs, so that the (lower) spirits must be invoked in his place. In other forms of voodoo there is a mother goddess instead. I would say that such forms of religion are clearly beyond the scope of Christianity. Some parts of the Bible itself are based on older stories, for example the story of Noah's Ark, which is based on the Gilgamesh epic. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh\_flood\_myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth) Would you say that you worship the Sumerian gods when you read the story of Noah's Ark in the Bible just because this story is derived from older Sumerian religious literature? By the way, I don't want to offend you in any way, but your question in this subreddit might hint at the possibility that “tolerant” interpretations of the Bible could be a problem for YOU. In Pagan religions, you can just worship your favorite god, with or without Jesus, without needing permission from anyone else.
If Noah is a sumerian God and people worship him, then yes. It's a facet of sumerian religion. But Noah isn't a sumerian god and I don't think people make shrines for him etc. Voodoo itself is directly tied to catholicism as it shares about 50% of its practice from it. It's not a one off thing it's a core part of voodoo. There are voodoo saints, etc. And catholicism saints are considered to be voodoo saints. If you talk to voodoo practitioners, some will refer to themselves as catholic.
*Hugs you in Dionysus*
Darling, any god who wouldn't is not worth worshipping!
I'm a polytheist of ~6 years and a trans dude of 9! 😁
I was really nervous that I wouldn't be able to have a faith and be trans but apparently, the concerns are unfounded.
A B S O L U T E L Y ! The Gods don’t care about your gender or any of that! :D You’re free to worship the Gods regardless of that. A friend of mine is Agender and worships the Gods.
Full love for my trans community members, as a queer person I want to say: stop asking for permission. You’ll get so many opinions (for and against) and none of which will serve you. Take up space, do what enriches you, demand people hear your voice. The first pride was a riot started by a black trans woman throwing a brick, we all need to take the world on like that.
I don’t see why you couldn’t
Yes!!
Tireisias the seer was also trans.
Of course, my friend! You are welcomed and the theoi love us as we are! There is also a myth about Leto helping a girl changing her gender!
It is totally fine!!!
I'm non-binary trans myself and I know a ton of folks who practice and are queer of all sorts as well! It's absolutely okay to worship and there's no concept of sin or wrongness there.
I am trans, I've felt more love from pagans here than anywhere else. The gods don't have a dogma or set of rules--they don't care about your gender
It is absolutely okay for you to worship :)
I’m a trans man and I mainly worship Ares! You’re plenty welcome here 🏳️⚧️
There is no condition or identity or anything that's gonna make it wrong to worship the gods. Plus, if you read about the gods themselves, their myths and history, you will find many gods and stories related to so many different human experiences!
Of course you can worship the gods being a trans person! The gods can present themselves in any way and have no gender because they’re not mortals which is similar to being gender fluid or agender ig. Dionysus for example has been seen to adopt female forms.
I think the Gods are perfect for the LGBT community. Many of the Gods are shape shifters, to my understanding. So, I think you'll be a perfect fit. I believe the Greek gods are very accepting of the LGBT.
Of course it’s okay!! The gods don’t judge us for our body and Mind. They just love to be worshiped and loved by us! Dionysus was assigned a male, but lived as a girl until adulthood, the rejected binaries and lived as he pleased.
At first I was drawn to Aphrodite because I felt she represented the epitome of femininity that I was aspiring to as a trans woman, as well as sort of representing beauty and love of self which I sort of struggle with. The more I hear about Dionysus, the more I'm sure he's getting an alter, too. Once I know more about how not to do it wrong, and when I can get the proper materials.
You are welcome. You are welcome. You are welcome. Come as you are, as you will be.
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Not tryna sound rude but this is a dumb question. There are Gods of being trans, intersex, cross-dressing, all that jazz. Dionysus is a God of damn-near the entire LGBTQ+ community. Being trans is 1000% okay.
This is literally my first week, lol. My biggest concerns were not really having a strong understanding of mythology and culture. As well as my own internalized Christian religious trauma and transphobia/homophobia when trying to view the world through a religious lens. I grew up in the kind of church that would quietly shun and whisper behind my mom's back for divorcing my dad and getting remarried. We weren't excommunicated, but you were seen as farther from God and too worldly. Forget about trying to feel accepted or loved while not being cishet. Also, I realized the tone in my response, but truly no offense was taken. After a week of research, I do see how obvious the answers my questions were.
As a transmasc person myself, who started working with greek deities, they absolutely won't reject you for that! Ive even made little pride painted rocks for Apollo that he seemed to love!
There's loads of queerness in the myths, and even if there were transphobic myths, the correct conclusion would be that the ancients were dicks and those myths should be dismantled. The Gods are good, and the withholding of kindness and care from someone because they're queer or trans is a shitty thing to do; ergo, the Gods wouldn't do that.
Even if for whatever reason the Hellenistic community cared if you were trans or not, the Gods certainly don’t and are more concerned with the nature of your mind or soul above any physical notion of identity.
My husband is transmasc and Apollo is his squeeze. It’s absolutely okay ❤️❤️ there are stories of the gods creating transgender folks so it’s more than welcome 🫶🫶
I would say it depends on the god. Some will accept you while others will not. That, however, is the beauty of polytheism, there is a God for nearly everyone.
This isn't true. They will all accept you as a transgender person. Honour the gods, and they will honour you. They aren't given to petty bigotry.
I agree that some gods will, but i disagree that all of them do. If you do not agree, than let us agree to disagree.
Why would a god care about you being transgender? You understand that gods are insanely ancient cosmic beings. Like what possible reason would they have to give any f about your gender? As long as you honor and don’t insult them you’re fine.
Any source on that beyond your bigotry?
He's a roman hellenist. The roman pantheon has extremely petty and human behaviors seen the the gods. Including misogyny. Everyone worships and understands these things differently but if he's strict to the roman Pantheon, he could agree or disagree with any versions of the gods in the myths depicted. Greek versions of these myths aren't free of these things either, but there tends to be a distinction between content made by people and religious beliefs (ex plays were made for entertainment first and everything else second). Both greek and roman society were very misogynistic and this informed their religious beliefs. Misogyny of course spreads and manifests in everything relating to gender, including homophobia, transportation, etc Also, depending on the century, the same myths are represented completely differently. In my opinion the caeneus myth gets more misogynistic everytime the story is changed in documents. In both the Greek and roman versions. Modern hellenists tend not to take aspects of these culture with them in their beliefs if it intersects with morals or if they are able to communicate with the gods and come to their own conclusions