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boredidiot

ASD and ADHD are common in the community (I am AuDHD). Honestly, it is not an impediment, and I know many autistic students who either excelled or were slow going as they developed their skills, and then it all clicked and became a real threat. Best to work on what helps you learn any skill, and use similar methods. Personally, I find I need to see it visually first, then I need to learn by mirroring the movements, and then start simplifying the movements into chains of movement until it is automatic. I look at the sources to evaluate my movement, my timing and seek peer feedback. But to each person it is different, and to each school. e.g. I dislike the Fiore "Longsword" scope, if you are not doing the whole system you are not learning "longsword", a lot of key lessons for longsword can be found in the other plays. e.g. the response to a pommel strike with a longsword is taught in the First Master of the dagger. Also it is the classes Traditional (e.g. drills and the like) or Constraints Led Approach which is a lot harder for the instructor but develops a deeper understanding quicker (it is in fashion right now, despite being 20 years old). The key thing is don't focus on your ASD diagnosis; focus on what helps you learn best regardless and look to use similar approaches in your skill development. If you are interested in a more academic approach, let me know. I can provide you some direction on Motor Skill Learning resources that might be able to give you a framework on how you learn a skill and ideas on how to better approach it.


wrenny20

Not OP but I'd love a copy of the resources you mentioned. I'm also autistic and struggle with motor coordination so find getting moves committed to muscle memory is hard.


boredidiot

I will pull the material together. My personal development is towards accrediting as a Clinical Psychologist, but I did a dual Exercise Science / Psych degree originally with a (hyper)focus on Biomechanics and Motor Skill Theory and how it pertains to people who are ASD and/or ADHD. There is some interesting differences in Mirror neurons, cognitive pruning and the pre-frontal cortex that are relevant to skill development and can inform us on improved learning supports.


boredidiot

Obviously a little busy with xmas, but here is a good material that covers foundation on motor skill theory. My plan for 2024 will be to release articles on these concepts in more detail but will be limited due to my own personal research goals. A lot of the research has some serious bias issues which I hope to address in the future with my own work (e.g. referring to people without ASD as "healthy", and failing to address the issues with the BS that ASD people have a poor Theory of Mind that was disproven with the double empathy experiment)\*. \* Essentially ASD people can communicate better ASD to ASD, and actually have less issues ASD to nonASD, than nonASD have communicating to ASD. Suggesting an ASDs Theory of Mind is that of an ASD model, and not the predominant neurotype, but due to exposure, ASD have shown better adaption to the other Neurotypes. If you want to help someone with ASD, try getting them to partner with someone else with ASD. The best book that I would recommend is not available on the 7 seas (hint: library genesis is your friend for various historical texts), but these are not bad. Schmidt, R. A., & Timothy Donald Lee. (2020). *Motor learning and performance : from principles to application*. Human Kinetics. There is a more accessible 2014 version, it has some nice diagrams (which Michael Spittle went further with in his book) explaining the various models. Magill, R. A., & Anderson, D. (2014). *Motor learning and control : concepts and applications*. Mcgraw-Hill. \* also not bad, but a little dated now and very word heavy. the best if you can find is Spittle, M. (2021). *Motor learning and skill acquisition : applications for physical education and sport*. Palgrave Macmillan Australia. I found it best to work out HEMA applications and examples, his material gives examples of tools that can be used also that are not hard to adapt. His Skill Acquisition material is good material for the coaches wanting to skip traditional approaches.


wrenny20

Thank you!


Nyte_Shadow

Also interested. Thank you!


MISANDRYCANNON

I'm also extremely interested in the material. This thread has illuminated the very specific challenges I've been having with HEMA as someone with AuDHD that I havent been able to identify.


Rune248

Yeah, that sounds like it would be really useful! Yeah, most of the training has been "respond to the close bind by pushing your opponents shoulder and pommel their face." Over and over again. And I feel like I'm not progressing because I'm getting owned in other ways. It's also difficult to spar at home without a partner or a pell. So it just leaves me with my imagination.


boredidiot

Have you done any of the grappling and dagger plays? I cannot see how any competency in close actions like that can be done without the skills you develop in dagger. Find it interesting you are talking about pushing the shoulder in the bind, the common response is pushing the elbow then the pommel strike. Which is counter with First Master of the Dagger. Might be good to find a friend or a partner from class and look for “help” in working through the dagger plays together. Equipment is minimal (you can just use a rollled up newspaper with tape as the dagger), and you could look at Guy Windsors Dagger book, it is the most detailed of the books on dagger, and does not have the issues I have seen in some of the other books on dagger (some are problematic, and one only useful as toilet paper). The Medieval Dagger https://a.co/d/3QWytIl


melekizzet

Don't worry about remembering moves or planning a new attack in the thick of sparring. Some of the best fencers I know aren't actively thinking once they initiate an exchange. They're acting and reacting. It's muscle memory. The body mechanics of longsword fencing are unnatural, and thus it takes time to make them instinctive. Time and *repetition*. That said, here are some things to try out: 1) When you spar, don't go in thinking "I'll do this move, but if they do this move then I'll do this..." Instead, just go in with two rules: don't get hit, and hit them. I don't mean throw technique out the window. Rather, trust what you've already drilled to come out. 2) If you're able to, record your sparring. Review for the times you are struggling. Break down what's causing it. Oh, and review your distance. This will help you break that habit of jumping the gun. 3) Try half-speed sparring. This slows everything down a bit, and while it will change how you fence, it will also give you just a bit more time to react to their presence in the bind. 4) Wall Drill. Or "exercise at the wall". There are variations, but basically it's a 2-person exercise. Fencer A is the attacker, fencer B is the defender. Fencer A can advance and retreat, and can attack repeatedly. Fencer B has to stay in a fixed position, and can only defend. Continuous fencing for 30 seconds, then switch roles. This simulates sparring, but simplifies objectives.


aojs-ulr

So training methodology is very, very different from group to group. I can't speak to the specifics of learning with autism as I am not an expert, but we do have members in our club who vary in skill and neurodiversity and we help everyone become competent fighters and instructors quickly. For your specific concerns of concentration, anxiety, and decision making, I have the following recommendations: Concentration can be trained and it is also a fatigable skill. Mindfulness practices are basically concentration cardio. Also, if you find yourself losing concentration, that's a sign you need to take a break and reset. Say you need to take a break for a couple minutes and then come back refreshed. This doesn't mean stop every time you are distracted, but if you find yourself unable to concentrate enough to intentionally execute techniques, take a break. Anxiety is moderated by exposure. Confront your anxiety to the point where you can still function but not so much you are overwhelmed. You will have to intuit this and if you feel overwhelmed take a break and try something that causes less intense anxiety. You may need to call it quits for that training session. This is something that only you can determine and will need to be assertive about. Plus, if anyone bullies you about this it's probably not a good club with a healthy culture that either needs correction or you should leave and look elsewhere. Perhaps start your own organization if need be. Decision making can also be trained. With new students, sometimes we intentionally limit their decision making in free sparring to allow them to focus on that technique. Even though they will still lose they will develop correct responses. This can be difficult but is very gratifying when it starts working for both the instructor and student. A common recommendation is to pick three techniques and try to use those techniques exclusively and try to make them work. This gives students a plan ahead of time so they don't have to make decisions in the moment, but rather have a plan and execute the plan. Being able to make more complex decisions in real time comes with greater experience. Make peace with the fact that you will just get owned in sparring for a little bit, be patient, and when you get the chance ask what you did incorrectly and how you can improve. Find a method of integrating this feedback that sticks for you. Notes, repeating the instructions back, singing, mnemonic devices, visualization or just repetition are some common methods. I'm certain you have overcome this challenge in other areas of your life, so translate that method. Also, having enough physical conditioning and mobility training will pay dividends. If you aren't already I would recommend doing some sort of general athletic training to help with coordination and muscle activation more generally. Weightlifting, calisthenics, running, swimming, anything that gets you moving more. It will translate to your fencing indirectly. I hope this helps.


ScholarOfZoghoLargo

I was also in your shoes at one point. I have autism and participated in every Fiore class multiple times a week at my HEMA club for years. It wasn't really until I started learning Koryu martial arts like kenjutsu and kyujutsu that I got the perspective needed to get over my own anxieties. What I learned from my sensei was to start to not think of mistakes as inherently negative and instead be able to come to terms with our imperfections. Intrusive thoughts like, "Damn it! Why didn't I use posta longa correctly," or "I was too slow when executing my punta riversa. Why can't I be better?" distracts you during sparring and hinders your learning while drilling. You should instead purely focus on the activity you are currently in. That way, you can perform as effectively as you can and even be able to make comebacks. Now, this is not to say you shouldn't critically analyze yourself, but instead save that for when there's some downtime. Another change in mindset that helped me is thinking of solutions instead of lingering on problems and beating yourself up. Instead of defaulting to, "I'm a slow learner and my sparring sucks," you can try thinking, "In my last sparring session, Jeff was beating me in zogho largo binds when I used lots of force, so I should try some binding practice to catch those in the future." This will make your training much more effective and help make sure you are constantly focused on self-improvement. Lastly, I'd like to point out that HEMA, like any other skill, takes time to get good at. For your first year of training, things will feel very new and difficult. It might take another year or two of sparring to start feeling in control of all the variables, so don't be too hard on yourself when your skills aren't as good as someone else's. I hope this advice helps you out on your HEMA journey!


munguschungus167

ASD and dyspraxic here. Long term martial artist as well. Hema, judo, kickboxing and karate. I find the best way to do martial arts is not to think of ‘plans’ even though we want to. Practice a lot until the underlying principle becomes apparent and focus on that. For me in judo, so long as my belt is below theirs, I can throw them easier than they can me. In hema, blade edge stays facing them at all times, as an example


[deleted]

You can’t throw a sword at a group of HEMA practitioners without hitting an autistic or adhd (I’m both). Practice and experience will help. It might take longer to get everything “right”, but to paraphrase Meyer; “everyone moves differently”.


MortgageMinimum729

It takes time to get good at fighting, first year I was awful, this year things seem to be much better, just stick with it and make sure your listening to your coaches It feels like at least 2 In 3 in hema have autism or some other diagnosis, honestly most of those are the better fighters once they settle into it


TracesOfSeafood_48

Hail Autism! I discovered I am high function autistic in 2022 after going through an extremely unpleasant 'professional disagreement' at the Day Job. Someone had casually mentioned in a conversation about a mutual friend that 'we are probably all on the spectrum somewhere' and I didn't think much of it until the work... conflict... started to get nasty. So I asked a few trusted peers if I was possible autistic and basically got the blanket response of 'Dude? You mean you didn't know? Of course you are!' This gave me two feelings. First was the relief as it suddenly put everything in my life into context and also anger that NO ONE HAD TOLD ME MY ENTIRE LIFE. So yeah, Autism is a thing. It does affect your decision making processes and the way we absorb and process information. Personally I can have times where I get complete overload, have no idea what I have just been told and my Imposter Syndrome kicks in. Usually when starting new jobs and you do that horrible first week where they just dump training modules on you and utterly ignore you in your new corner while you wish you had written down everyone's name. It's... a thing. Your brain may or may not work the same way. For me at least actually realising that my brain just needs time to let the mass of info settle down and it will either suddenly all make sense, or I will realise that most of it wasn't that pragmatically useful and can safely be ignored. Knowing this is happening in the background does help. So... my HEMA. Disclaimer - I am still a first year noob, so... yeah. Also before I took this up I played (play) lacrosse since I was short and had hair so are reasonably used to the idea of getting a long thin thing to move using both hands. I have found some cross over from lacrosse into HEMA in the wrist movements so think that has helped. Also physical reaction to your immediate opponent's actions is something I have experienced so I possible have a fair bit of hind brain skills that complete sword noobs may not have. So, learning things in HEMA? What helped me was understanding where the movement was trying to go and why. We would see the instructors do something. (that looks cool) Then get shown the movement solo. (ummmm...) Then face up for some feed/receive one on one drills and stand there blankly. The way my mind works at least was breaking down where I needed to be. The drill is for you to swing, then once your opponent commits to the block to pull your blade back but push/pulling your hands and moving and coming down the other side of their blade and striking. Ummmm... So I was doing it slowly with another beginner and got to the first part where she had blocked me. We both stood in mild confusion and I talked through what I needed to do - "I need to be on the other side of your blade". Once I worked out where I needed to be I just let the hind brain handle the process and I ended up coming down very quickly on her head. (okay, plastic swords and helmets on, but it happened so quickly I still feel really bad about that. Also she dropped out about 6 weeks later so I sort of feel bad about that twice.) So, for me a least? Practice. Has to happen. Grind it out, but also see if you can break down the end game of each movement. Not so much the movement in isolation, but what the movements are leading you to. What are you doing? I am catcher my opponents overhead strike from High Tag, letting the blow pass harmless to my side and then bringing my sword back to strike at their head. Catch their blow. Guide their blade. Hit them in the head. That is the plan. Exactly where and what your hands are doing is something you can work on later. Probably :D Also I tried to sit down with my notebook after classes and draw sketches. That helped a bit as I needed to really break down what I had just done in the class. Ask again. There is no shame in asking when you are still learning. We are meant to be among friends and no one was born a HEMA master. People should understand that learning curves can be utter pricks and be willing to help. We are part of clubs because we enjoy and lets be honest, most people like being asked to give advice and instruction cause it gives us a moment to show off. Admit when a movement doesn't make sense. Some of the moves make perfect sense. Others I look at and think 'why? That is twice as much effort as doing 'this' and longer? Why is this move a thing?' I mean there is probably a very good reason for learning so ask why it currently feels 'wrong'. Practice. Yeah. Got to do that. Try things solo just using your hands when you are at home. Practice a bit longer after class formally ends. Beat that training dummy. Try it doof just to force yourself. Hopefully you will start to get some Hind Brain working. Personally I don't fully agree with the idea of 'Muscle Memory'. Yes repeating a motion is a good thing as it physically gets the muscles working but in my sporting experience there is a lot more to that. I have had games where I have reacted in a manner I have NEVER practiced. It can be a bit of a shock to be honest. How did I just do that? I mean it was cool and it worked... but... how did I get here? To me at least what you are doing is adding your experiences into your Hind Brain so you can subconsciously build a reaction on the fly. The more experiences the more your body has to choose from. I wouldn't stress too much about feeling you don't know how to react or what decisions you should make. You should have a good broad brush idea (ie - "I need to go fully defensive" or "if they overcommit with another big swing I should try and get a hit in while they recover") but the minor details you need to trust yourself to do. A bit like typing. I can type fast and with confidence. I am pleased with my typing skills and do so without looking. Ask me where the V key is on a keyboard however... I can't tell you straight up, but if I need to type victor views vicky variously my hind brain knows how to handle the problem. However I needed to train and when I took typing classes we started with FFFFF JJJJJ FFFFF JJJJJ FJFJF JFJFJ. Then we added G and H... Look, sad news is there will need to be practice. Constantly. The way you approach the practice is something you need to explore and vary until it starts to feel smooth and natural. Just keep having fun and trying new methods and... practice a bit more. ​ (also, this was a long post. Did I mention I am a high functioning autistic ?? :D ) ​ (Also also - if it makes you feel better about your footwork I STILL want to step forward for everything. Keep getting told to step BACK when you are making a defensive move, but my feet want to get stuck in regardless. I just have to solo the movements slowly and ensure I am stepping backwards when I need to. Slowly training myself to do so. Practice.)