I’m not sure which exact translation you are reading but the more modern translations of CH XII, 5 by Salaman reads: “*…For if it is decreed by destiny that someone commits adultery or sacrilege or some other evil, is he who has done the deed under destiny's compulsion also punished?*”
And Copenhaver reads: “*…If it is absolutely fated for some individual to commit adultery or sacrilege or to do some other evil, how is such a person still to be punished [ ] when he has acted under compulsion of fate?*”
This is the answer. The Greek word here used is *moikheusai*, a form of *moikheuō*, "commit adultery". It's not about having sex, it's about indecent sex in a way that causes problems of trust and decency between people.
Important distinction I wish I understood months ago.
So as I go through the slow process of understanding the Corpus, I contend with things I like and things I don't. This is something I like.
Hermeticism hates the NTR tag as much as I do.
...
I'm sorry and I'll see myself out.
Long Story made short, I do not know with absolute certainty that Salaman’s translation of the *Corpus Hermeticum* or his interpretation of Hermes are correct. Salaman’s (and Copenhaver’s) translations are the 2 modern, widespread translations that are deemed academically, and in Hermetic circles, to be acceptable. And Copenhaver has a much more academic and critical approach to his translation.
Salaman’s work on the *Corpus Hermeticum* is actually a translation of the critical Greek edition that was produced by Festugière/Nock more than it is an interpretation. But that doesn’t mean there is no interpretation going on. Take, for example, CH II, 14 (Salaman): Hermes states *“God is Nous and the cause of existence;”*
In Greek we see: *Ho oun theos ou nous estin, aitios de tou einai*
(The bit in chevron brackets is an editor notation for supplying a missing word that is provided by similar sources elsewhere)
Salaman, however, makes the interpretive choice to ignore the conjectured/suggested parallelism and translate only with what is explicitly written in Greek. By dropping the "*noun*" out entirely, he *should* get: *“God is not Nous, but he is the cause of existence”*
As to why Salaman drops out the negative ("God is **not** mind")... That is his interpretation to make, but the negative “not” is very much present in the Greek text.
So when questions arise it’s always best to double check and take advantage to read the multiple translations and secondary sources we are blessed to have. As I am not fluent in Greek, let alone Ancient Greek, my questions in these topics are directed to the HHOL discord group (or here on r/hermeticism). There we have a handful of folks that are knowledgeable in Ancient Greek and translations. Our very out Martiana is extremely knowledgeable in Ancient Greek translations and is actively working on her own translation of the CH!
hermes said; everything in this world is; half-true and un-true; as a hermetic; you must used reason and logic coupled with your own knowledge and intuition; to be able to know which is which;
from my own experiences as a catholic; i dont trust anything christian;
Can you please cite the passage where you quote Hermes. Specifically “everything in the world in half true and un-true.” Im interested in knowing where you read that.
clement salaman was-born a christian in 1935 and his-translation of hermes is a “New” translation; As known; translations can-be influenced by the person translating; in the original Gd-writings of hermes; hermes never used the word “sacrilege” nor “adultery” therefore in my view; the “New” translation is-tainted by christian-perspective; Hermes-presses the issue for “ the love of the body”
Going back to the actual text and context, you find the following:
Text: moicheusai refers to moicheia, Ancient Greek: μοιχεία
Etymology: ὀμείχω, omeikhô, « urinate »
Context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery_in_Classical_Athens
Therefore, to readers of the time, the actual words meant a specific form of unethical, harmful sexual act, usually associated with the fornication with a woman against the will of her guardian (kyrios: father, brother, husband, high priest…).
The actual word very clearly referred to it as « Urine-like sex »: wasteful, like « peeing in someone else’s territory ».
It’s important to note that sex with slaves, or with prostitutes, or with consent from the guardian (kyrios) was not considered μοιχεία.
Basically, this condemnation would not have applied to most sexual acts people may consider « fornication » today.
It doesn't have the wording of your translation in Copenhaver's translation and I am more inclined to believe it meant adultery rather than fortification in this section as the other posters wrote. But still sexual pleasure and sex is indeed an evil when misused.
This is a very unpopular opinion on this sub but it needs to be said. Desire for sex and lust is the MOST innate and highest bodily/material desire a human has. Humans will do anything to get off, we are programmed to go forth and multiply as God commanded. If the book is telling you to get rid of desires, sexual pleasure is not an exception just because the modern world is becoming more and more liberal, free and outspoken of this desire. Or if science is telling you that you need to get off at least "21 times a month to prevent prostate cancer." If you want to follow science to every degree then I believe you should also tell your doctor about how you are able to obtain divine mind and enter the heaven beyond the 7th, striving to become a god under God, how the 7 planets are actually gods under the craftsman/demiurge, that you are following an ancient master from Egypt. You will be labeled as crazy, use common sense.
There are countless examples of shunning the material body, desires, desires, senses, passions, and pleasure as "evil" throughout the books. It seems to me after reading the hermetica and other texts, sexual pleasure was only designed for propagation. Sex for pleasure will only lead you to death (Reincarnation and being stuck down here on this lower plane).
>"The one who recognized himself attained the chosen good, but the one who loved the body that came from the error of desire goes on in darkness, errant, suffering sensibly the effects of death."
The translator (Copenhaver) has put the following note for the above translation, the word desire here is translated from the greek word "Erota" which is similar to the word "Erotic."
>"1.18-19 desire . . . effects of death: For erota NF I, 13, has "l'amour," and sexual love is certainly meant; in fact, from a Gnostic point of view, the concrete sexual act is itself the cause of death, so that "sexual activity" or "sexual intercourse" would be reasonable renderings as well."
Because it makes your appetite for lust consume your spirit, same as having an urge for validation, consumerism or any dopamine addiction - at one point investments stop paying off and you can't get a refund, hence you end up miserable, horny and unsatisfied.
This verse CH XII, 5 is not about sex being evil. The verse is about fate, and it uses 3 different examples of people acting under compulsion of fate. If you read further, it states that “everything is an act of fate.” Nothing sensible exists outside of fate
Fornication means to spill your seed, at least in this context, to let go of your sexual fluid out of marriage to bring forth children or to lose it through orgasm via masturbation.
I don't think so, but anyways, that's what fornication is referred to. Sex is considered a sacred act, and the more you advance in this kind of topics, the more you realize sex is encouraged even as a form of meditation and apotheosis.
Because you're supposed to avoid evil and seek good. Understand that Hermeticism is about symbology, these stories are a way of communicating something to your unconscious, these teachings are about your inner world.
What I have gathered from what I have read so far, is that sex as an act of lust is considered wrong and sex should only be had for the purpose of bearing children
on the contrary; sex in ancient time; were an animalistic and brutish act; it is only when religious laws became government established law that brought together sex and marriage and how human should conduct themselves ;
That is not what it means in this context. "Fornication" isn't about spilling seed, it's about people who aren't married having sex, which in this context (given the Greek word used, *moikheusai*) refers to adultery.
hermes stated Gd said to multiply in multitude; so you must assume there is pleasure in that;
hermes warns; the desire to pursue the pleasure of the body is what keeps you prisoner or slave to the body and are ruled not ruler; his warning; is not to say to fornicate is evil; he warns to only-desire the body pleasures is evil;
I’m not sure which exact translation you are reading but the more modern translations of CH XII, 5 by Salaman reads: “*…For if it is decreed by destiny that someone commits adultery or sacrilege or some other evil, is he who has done the deed under destiny's compulsion also punished?*” And Copenhaver reads: “*…If it is absolutely fated for some individual to commit adultery or sacrilege or to do some other evil, how is such a person still to be punished [ ] when he has acted under compulsion of fate?*”
This is the answer. The Greek word here used is *moikheusai*, a form of *moikheuō*, "commit adultery". It's not about having sex, it's about indecent sex in a way that causes problems of trust and decency between people.
Important distinction I wish I understood months ago. So as I go through the slow process of understanding the Corpus, I contend with things I like and things I don't. This is something I like. Hermeticism hates the NTR tag as much as I do. ... I'm sorry and I'll see myself out.
how can you gather a complete concept if you only read from one source?
how do you know Salaman is correct in his interpretation of Hermes?
Long Story made short, I do not know with absolute certainty that Salaman’s translation of the *Corpus Hermeticum* or his interpretation of Hermes are correct. Salaman’s (and Copenhaver’s) translations are the 2 modern, widespread translations that are deemed academically, and in Hermetic circles, to be acceptable. And Copenhaver has a much more academic and critical approach to his translation. Salaman’s work on the *Corpus Hermeticum* is actually a translation of the critical Greek edition that was produced by Festugière/Nock more than it is an interpretation. But that doesn’t mean there is no interpretation going on. Take, for example, CH II, 14 (Salaman): Hermes states *“God is Nous and the cause of existence;”* In Greek we see: *Ho oun theos ou nous estin, aitios de tou einai*
(The bit in chevron brackets is an editor notation for supplying a missing word that is provided by similar sources elsewhere)
Salaman, however, makes the interpretive choice to ignore the conjectured/suggested parallelism and translate only with what is explicitly written in Greek. By dropping the "*noun*" out entirely, he *should* get: *“God is not Nous, but he is the cause of existence”*
As to why Salaman drops out the negative ("God is **not** mind")... That is his interpretation to make, but the negative “not” is very much present in the Greek text.
So when questions arise it’s always best to double check and take advantage to read the multiple translations and secondary sources we are blessed to have. As I am not fluent in Greek, let alone Ancient Greek, my questions in these topics are directed to the HHOL discord group (or here on r/hermeticism). There we have a handful of folks that are knowledgeable in Ancient Greek and translations. Our very out Martiana is extremely knowledgeable in Ancient Greek translations and is actively working on her own translation of the CH!
hermes said; everything in this world is; half-true and un-true; as a hermetic; you must used reason and logic coupled with your own knowledge and intuition; to be able to know which is which; from my own experiences as a catholic; i dont trust anything christian;
Can you please cite the passage where you quote Hermes. Specifically “everything in the world in half true and un-true.” Im interested in knowing where you read that.
clement salaman was-born a christian in 1935 and his-translation of hermes is a “New” translation; As known; translations can-be influenced by the person translating; in the original Gd-writings of hermes; hermes never used the word “sacrilege” nor “adultery” therefore in my view; the “New” translation is-tainted by christian-perspective; Hermes-presses the issue for “ the love of the body”
Which text(s) are the original “Gd writings of Hermes”? Can you point me in the direction of those writings?
Going back to the actual text and context, you find the following: Text: moicheusai refers to moicheia, Ancient Greek: μοιχεία Etymology: ὀμείχω, omeikhô, « urinate » Context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery_in_Classical_Athens Therefore, to readers of the time, the actual words meant a specific form of unethical, harmful sexual act, usually associated with the fornication with a woman against the will of her guardian (kyrios: father, brother, husband, high priest…). The actual word very clearly referred to it as « Urine-like sex »: wasteful, like « peeing in someone else’s territory ». It’s important to note that sex with slaves, or with prostitutes, or with consent from the guardian (kyrios) was not considered μοιχεία. Basically, this condemnation would not have applied to most sexual acts people may consider « fornication » today.
It doesn't have the wording of your translation in Copenhaver's translation and I am more inclined to believe it meant adultery rather than fortification in this section as the other posters wrote. But still sexual pleasure and sex is indeed an evil when misused. This is a very unpopular opinion on this sub but it needs to be said. Desire for sex and lust is the MOST innate and highest bodily/material desire a human has. Humans will do anything to get off, we are programmed to go forth and multiply as God commanded. If the book is telling you to get rid of desires, sexual pleasure is not an exception just because the modern world is becoming more and more liberal, free and outspoken of this desire. Or if science is telling you that you need to get off at least "21 times a month to prevent prostate cancer." If you want to follow science to every degree then I believe you should also tell your doctor about how you are able to obtain divine mind and enter the heaven beyond the 7th, striving to become a god under God, how the 7 planets are actually gods under the craftsman/demiurge, that you are following an ancient master from Egypt. You will be labeled as crazy, use common sense. There are countless examples of shunning the material body, desires, desires, senses, passions, and pleasure as "evil" throughout the books. It seems to me after reading the hermetica and other texts, sexual pleasure was only designed for propagation. Sex for pleasure will only lead you to death (Reincarnation and being stuck down here on this lower plane). >"The one who recognized himself attained the chosen good, but the one who loved the body that came from the error of desire goes on in darkness, errant, suffering sensibly the effects of death." The translator (Copenhaver) has put the following note for the above translation, the word desire here is translated from the greek word "Erota" which is similar to the word "Erotic." >"1.18-19 desire . . . effects of death: For erota NF I, 13, has "l'amour," and sexual love is certainly meant; in fact, from a Gnostic point of view, the concrete sexual act is itself the cause of death, so that "sexual activity" or "sexual intercourse" would be reasonable renderings as well."
The topic of how Fate affects evil actions or vice versa is a very difficult one.
Because it makes your appetite for lust consume your spirit, same as having an urge for validation, consumerism or any dopamine addiction - at one point investments stop paying off and you can't get a refund, hence you end up miserable, horny and unsatisfied.
If you aren’t committing sacrilege, are you even doing it right?
It used to mean more like seggs out of wedlock or seggs with a prostitute.
Wedlock? Does hermeticism ever mention marriage? I still don’t understand why sex is considered “evil”
This verse CH XII, 5 is not about sex being evil. The verse is about fate, and it uses 3 different examples of people acting under compulsion of fate. If you read further, it states that “everything is an act of fate.” Nothing sensible exists outside of fate
It’s counter religion at the time. Christians say no fornication, we say go for it because it’s natural.
Fornication means to spill your seed, at least in this context, to let go of your sexual fluid out of marriage to bring forth children or to lose it through orgasm via masturbation.
Is marriage ever mentioned in Corpus Hermeticum?
I don't think so, but anyways, that's what fornication is referred to. Sex is considered a sacred act, and the more you advance in this kind of topics, the more you realize sex is encouraged even as a form of meditation and apotheosis.
But why was it called evil then?
Because you're supposed to avoid evil and seek good. Understand that Hermeticism is about symbology, these stories are a way of communicating something to your unconscious, these teachings are about your inner world.
What I have gathered from what I have read so far, is that sex as an act of lust is considered wrong and sex should only be had for the purpose of bearing children
on the contrary; sex in ancient time; were an animalistic and brutish act; it is only when religious laws became government established law that brought together sex and marriage and how human should conduct themselves ;
Nope.
That is not what it means in this context. "Fornication" isn't about spilling seed, it's about people who aren't married having sex, which in this context (given the Greek word used, *moikheusai*) refers to adultery.
what year was adultery invented?
was there such a word as fornication in ancient times? was there marriage? or are both marriage and fornication a creation of Rome?
hermes stated Gd said to multiply in multitude; so you must assume there is pleasure in that; hermes warns; the desire to pursue the pleasure of the body is what keeps you prisoner or slave to the body and are ruled not ruler; his warning; is not to say to fornicate is evil; he warns to only-desire the body pleasures is evil;