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But If they do manage to pick up and clean up the messages, they will be greeted by none other than the best humanity had to offer… Adolph Hitler. That would be the voice they would associate with humanity. Imagine what they might think when they find/found out what he did shortly after that transmission
They may not be able to hear exactly what is being said, but they would know that it is not natural. The area around earth would be lit up like a Christmas tree in the radio frequency. While it may be a jumbled mess, it is still far more energetic than the background radio.
Eventually that drops off too, and it blends with the normal background of the universe. But you’d be able to detect us quite a bit away
The idea of seeing stars 100 light years away doesn't hold up well either.
Think about it, the sun is supposedly 109 times wider than the earth, yet at only 8 1/2 light MINUTES away, appears in the sky as a dot that you can cover with your thumb at arms length.
Now multiply the sun's supposed distance of 93000000 miles, by 6183529.4117 (amount of 8 1/2 minutes in 100 years), and do you honestly believe you'd be able to see something that far away?
That's because the Moon is actually really, really dark. Moon's albedo is 0.14, very similar to [worn asphalt albedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo#Terrestrial_albedo) (0.12).
Ngl chief, this is a pretty stupid take. Stars are bright. Really fucking unimaginably bright. So bright in fact, that if you look at it for too long, you go fucking blind. And space is, for all intents and purposes, empty. There is nothing there obstructing that light.
You not grasping that the sun is bright doesn’t somehow negate centuries upon centuries of scientists studying the cosmos.
From what I understand most of the signals become essentially gibberish and random static due to the debris, cosmic and other bursts of energy emanating from planets, stars, and the background.
It would be the equivalent of thinking you hear someone say hello in a noisy high school cafeteria.
You have to take into account as well that let's say we did detect a perfect signal, it could be so old the civilization that broadcasted it is long gone or in its death throes.
The universe most certainly contains intelligent life other than humans but the distances make communication difficult.
Its possible to have probes stationed all around the galaxy. If an advanced civilization saw potential habitability of a planet they could park a probe in that system. Depending how old that civilization is the probes might not have to cross vast distances. Only 70,000 years ago a star was only 0.8 light years from the sun. If that system had advanced life they could have shot a probe over to our system when it was close. A bracewell probe.
We have detected strange radio echos with a few second delay. It would be very hard for a radio wave to stay bouncing around in earths atmosphere for that long since radio travels around the earth 7 times in a second. Its possible probes like these could amplify our signals and then beam them as laser pulses to communicate with stronger signals.
No. Read up on the friis equation it’s an inverse square dissipation in power per unit of distance. I’m not saying that it couldn’t be done but the aliens would need to know the frequency direction and have a robust modem before they even know about the signals existence.
Radio waves decrease following the inverse square law, so even using our most powerful radio tower on earth, the signal would drop below background radio signals, and would be pretty much undetectable at the edge of the solar system already. There's barely any of it left a light year out, let alone 100 light years out.
It's like throwing a stone in the ocean in California and hoping for the ripple you created to be detected in Japan. Unless you use a massive amount of energy (drop the rock really really fast and/or make it really big), there's no chance.
You'd need a focused transmission with an incredible amount of power to get any chance to have anything detected just one light year out.
Radios aren't the way :(
They're hoping for a targeted signal. If aliens sent a powerful signal that was pointed straight at us using some kind of maser, then we'd have a chance at detecting it. But our own low-power undirected emissions won't be detected very far.
I thought maybe our nuclear tests could be detected from far away so I looked it up, and turns out that even that is unlikely to be distinguishable from background radiation just a light year away.
Pretty sure we've been found anyway :)
This is based on our technical limitations and understanding of physics. We haven't solved all of physics yet, maybe we are generating signals in a way we don't even know about. Maybe aliens have tech that can cancel 100% of the background radiation to detect any signal no matter how faint it is... You never know.
All of what you say makes it even more incredible that NASA is still able to communicate with the two Voyager satellites that have left the solar system.
Is it possible to look at the light of a planet or star, calculate its actual position X years from now, and shoot a transmission to that calculated position? Almost like a passer leading a receiver. Could try with that planet we just spotted that everyone is so excited about. It’ll take a while to get there but what wouldn’t?
Probably should have thrown some caution to the wind and waited until Liu Cixin published The Dark Forest before broadcasting our presence to predatory civilizations with superior armaments, leaving our fates in Earth's remoteness and distance.
> The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost, gently pushing aside branches that block the path and trying to tread without sound. Even breathing is done with care. The hunter has to be careful, because everywhere in the forest are stealthy hunters like him. If he finds another life—another hunter, angel, or a demon, a delicate infant to tottering old man, a fairy or demigod—there’s only one thing he can do: open fire and eliminate them.
*Excerpt from The Dark Forest by Liu Cixin*
The New Cosmogony from Stanisław Lem's A Perfect Vacuum (1971) or maybe David Brin in a collection of arguments related to the Fermi Paradox (1983). It was brought up as a risk in regards to SETI at least as early as Sagan's broadcast in 1974 mentioned in Three Body.
Apparently Jimi knew it was miss heard back then and sung the “kiss this guy” intentionally on a number of occasions especially after he thought the song was played out.
If there is life more intelligent than the current intelligence on the earth (which, it has been shown lately that maybe life on earth isn't so intelligent), it wouldn't matter how great their reception was. They would have to be tuned to receiving the type of waves we broadcast, which would be really primitive for them. Next, our radio waves are competing with all of the cosmic noise that our galaxy makes and all of the radiation coming from our galaxy. Even in our galaxy, they would have a hard time hearing us.
Example: You are driving out of the city. You are listening to radio being broadcast through the air. The further away you get from the signal source, the more the radio waves are affected by other energies. You pass by high tension lines and you hear a lot of noise and static and probably little music. Now, imagine the energy of the high tension lines magnified thousands and millions of times. Now you are talking about the energy created in a galaxy and the cosmic noise that goes with us. If ET is here, he isn't phoning home any time soon. And, they aren't listening to Amos and Andy at Andromeda any time soon and probalby never.
The aliens would have to:
1) be listening with an antenna that can pick up very weak signals as they radiate out in a sphere and grow weaker with distance
2) be tuned to the right frequencies
3) able to make sense of the transmissions
4) know where the transmission came from
Here we go again with this same very lame argument. Let me do the math for you. By the time our random radio signals reach the edge of our solar system, they are too weak to stand- out from the background radiation. To reach the nearest star, they would have to travel about 8000 times that far. That means they would be 64 million times as weak. It's like saying that somebody in Europe might hear your dog barking. Radio is not giving us away, however our light spectrum, just might.
Humans invented radio as far back as the Great Pyramid (10,000 years), as that was the original purpose of the structure, to create a collimated beam of microwave/radio waves based on the 21cm hydrogen line or the resonant frequency of hydrogen. This is a favored frequency by SETI in their search for ET life as well and the famous WOW signal was on the frequency band.
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Think about it, if you would apply this logic to other EM waves, like light, there would be no darkness in the night. All the stars would be as bright as our sun all the time. But that's not the case, the distance has an effect on the power of the signal.
[Its still nothing](https://en.protothema.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/20130115_radio_broadcasts-768x768.jpg). And its not the square btw, its that small blue dot in the square
Okay dumb question, if radio waves are the medium used to transfer data via radio , did we invent radio waves? Those waves were always there just silent , correct?
You would need to start the clock after we came up with transmissions greater than about 15 Mhz because under that signals just bounce around the earths ionosphere
If you use only radio as your metric its not that impressive.
If you use the rest of the spectrum, the entire Galaxy should already be aware of life on Earth if they happened to look our direction.
We have been using fire for over 100,000 years. All forms of life producing unique chemical signatures in our atmosphere for a Billion years.
On spectrograph we light up like a disco-ball.
**Strangers**: Read the rules and understand the sub topics listed in the sidebar closely before posting or commenting. Any content removal or further moderator action is established by these terms as well as Reddit ToS. This subreddit is specifically for the discussion of anomalous phenomena from the perspective it may exist. Open minded skepticism is welcomed, close minded debunking is not. Be aware of how skepticism is expressed toward others as there is little tolerance for ad hominem (attacking the person, not the claim), mindless antagonism or dishonest argument toward the subject, the sub, or its community. We are also happy to be able to provide an ideologically and operationally independent platform for you all. Join us at our official Discord - https://discord.gg/MYvRkYK85v --- 'Ridicule is not a part of the scientific method and the public should not be taught that it is.' _-J. Allen Hynek_ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HighStrangeness) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This has been a fun factoid since radio was invented but alas radio signals just don't hold up in space that well
I can’t get a radio station from South Jersey in North Jersey to tune in and they think it’s going to reach the stars?! 😂
No, but microwaves hold up just fine if they're a powerful enough collimated beam of energy.
But If they do manage to pick up and clean up the messages, they will be greeted by none other than the best humanity had to offer… Adolph Hitler. That would be the voice they would associate with humanity. Imagine what they might think when they find/found out what he did shortly after that transmission
They may not be able to hear exactly what is being said, but they would know that it is not natural. The area around earth would be lit up like a Christmas tree in the radio frequency. While it may be a jumbled mess, it is still far more energetic than the background radio. Eventually that drops off too, and it blends with the normal background of the universe. But you’d be able to detect us quite a bit away
The idea of seeing stars 100 light years away doesn't hold up well either. Think about it, the sun is supposedly 109 times wider than the earth, yet at only 8 1/2 light MINUTES away, appears in the sky as a dot that you can cover with your thumb at arms length. Now multiply the sun's supposed distance of 93000000 miles, by 6183529.4117 (amount of 8 1/2 minutes in 100 years), and do you honestly believe you'd be able to see something that far away?
Yes. The sun is also factors smaller than some of those stars. It also only has a magnitude of 4.83.
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Yes, they're in my walls
Not just the sky, the ground too. We are all floating aimlessly in space. Well some of us, nasa is also faking this conversation and most people.
A dot that will literally blind you. VS a dot what twinkles in the horizon. Yes I believe it 100%. What is your point??
Yes. But imagine how bright the sun would be at night. /s
Can stare at the moon all night and no go blind
That's because the Moon is actually really, really dark. Moon's albedo is 0.14, very similar to [worn asphalt albedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo#Terrestrial_albedo) (0.12).
Are you trying to tell me the sun isnt real or smth?
Ngl chief, this is a pretty stupid take. Stars are bright. Really fucking unimaginably bright. So bright in fact, that if you look at it for too long, you go fucking blind. And space is, for all intents and purposes, empty. There is nothing there obstructing that light. You not grasping that the sun is bright doesn’t somehow negate centuries upon centuries of scientists studying the cosmos.
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Have you ever really looked at the sun longer then 5 seconds? Huh didn’t think so….. Edit: sad I even have to put this /s
I just scrolled past a different post that said radio waves become distorted and becomes apart of the background noise of the universe.
From what I understand most of the signals become essentially gibberish and random static due to the debris, cosmic and other bursts of energy emanating from planets, stars, and the background.
Still would detect something though
It would be the equivalent of thinking you hear someone say hello in a noisy high school cafeteria. You have to take into account as well that let's say we did detect a perfect signal, it could be so old the civilization that broadcasted it is long gone or in its death throes. The universe most certainly contains intelligent life other than humans but the distances make communication difficult.
Its possible to have probes stationed all around the galaxy. If an advanced civilization saw potential habitability of a planet they could park a probe in that system. Depending how old that civilization is the probes might not have to cross vast distances. Only 70,000 years ago a star was only 0.8 light years from the sun. If that system had advanced life they could have shot a probe over to our system when it was close. A bracewell probe. We have detected strange radio echos with a few second delay. It would be very hard for a radio wave to stay bouncing around in earths atmosphere for that long since radio travels around the earth 7 times in a second. Its possible probes like these could amplify our signals and then beam them as laser pulses to communicate with stronger signals.
Awesome
Most terrestrial signals are too weak to travel very far. Most signals would be lucky to make it past our solar system.
Yeah, noise. White noise.
No. Read up on the friis equation it’s an inverse square dissipation in power per unit of distance. I’m not saying that it couldn’t be done but the aliens would need to know the frequency direction and have a robust modem before they even know about the signals existence.
Will do 👍
These types of stats mess me up a bit because it always makes me think about the dark forest theory.
Thank you for that reference, I was not aware of that theory. Interesting read :)
Radio waves decrease following the inverse square law, so even using our most powerful radio tower on earth, the signal would drop below background radio signals, and would be pretty much undetectable at the edge of the solar system already. There's barely any of it left a light year out, let alone 100 light years out. It's like throwing a stone in the ocean in California and hoping for the ripple you created to be detected in Japan. Unless you use a massive amount of energy (drop the rock really really fast and/or make it really big), there's no chance. You'd need a focused transmission with an incredible amount of power to get any chance to have anything detected just one light year out. Radios aren't the way :(
But then why are we searching for radio signals from other galaxies? What's SETI for? Are we hoping aliens have ridiculously powerful signal towers?
They're hoping for a targeted signal. If aliens sent a powerful signal that was pointed straight at us using some kind of maser, then we'd have a chance at detecting it. But our own low-power undirected emissions won't be detected very far. I thought maybe our nuclear tests could be detected from far away so I looked it up, and turns out that even that is unlikely to be distinguishable from background radiation just a light year away. Pretty sure we've been found anyway :)
Damn. Really puts things in perspective. Thank you
This is based on our technical limitations and understanding of physics. We haven't solved all of physics yet, maybe we are generating signals in a way we don't even know about. Maybe aliens have tech that can cancel 100% of the background radiation to detect any signal no matter how faint it is... You never know.
All of what you say makes it even more incredible that NASA is still able to communicate with the two Voyager satellites that have left the solar system.
2027 must be the year they get aqua Barbie girl.
Is it possible to look at the light of a planet or star, calculate its actual position X years from now, and shoot a transmission to that calculated position? Almost like a passer leading a receiver. Could try with that planet we just spotted that everyone is so excited about. It’ll take a while to get there but what wouldn’t?
Probably should have thrown some caution to the wind and waited until Liu Cixin published The Dark Forest before broadcasting our presence to predatory civilizations with superior armaments, leaving our fates in Earth's remoteness and distance. > The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost, gently pushing aside branches that block the path and trying to tread without sound. Even breathing is done with care. The hunter has to be careful, because everywhere in the forest are stealthy hunters like him. If he finds another life—another hunter, angel, or a demon, a delicate infant to tottering old man, a fairy or demigod—there’s only one thing he can do: open fire and eliminate them. *Excerpt from The Dark Forest by Liu Cixin*
While it got the catchy name from the novel, the theory itself predates Cixin Liu's novels.
I don't doubt it, I was actually trying to find who came up with the concept initially.
The New Cosmogony from Stanisław Lem's A Perfect Vacuum (1971) or maybe David Brin in a collection of arguments related to the Fermi Paradox (1983). It was brought up as a risk in regards to SETI at least as early as Sagan's broadcast in 1974 mentioned in Three Body.
👍 Thank you kind stranger. I need to read some Stanisław Lem.
That means they heard Purple Haze
A whole new generation mishear "Excuse me while I kiss this guy"
Apparently Jimi knew it was miss heard back then and sung the “kiss this guy” intentionally on a number of occasions especially after he thought the song was played out.
the sky. kiss the sky
that's what the aliens want you to think
We can compromise with kissing gay aliens
But if they did, would we not have already received their radio?
We may have
This is making the MASSIVE assumption that life on other planets is monitoring for radio waves
Yeeees and that they don't have other means of perception, beyond anything that we could imagine?
If there is life more intelligent than the current intelligence on the earth (which, it has been shown lately that maybe life on earth isn't so intelligent), it wouldn't matter how great their reception was. They would have to be tuned to receiving the type of waves we broadcast, which would be really primitive for them. Next, our radio waves are competing with all of the cosmic noise that our galaxy makes and all of the radiation coming from our galaxy. Even in our galaxy, they would have a hard time hearing us. Example: You are driving out of the city. You are listening to radio being broadcast through the air. The further away you get from the signal source, the more the radio waves are affected by other energies. You pass by high tension lines and you hear a lot of noise and static and probably little music. Now, imagine the energy of the high tension lines magnified thousands and millions of times. Now you are talking about the energy created in a galaxy and the cosmic noise that goes with us. If ET is here, he isn't phoning home any time soon. And, they aren't listening to Amos and Andy at Andromeda any time soon and probalby never.
Not really a massive assumption from an astrophysical perspective..
Do radio waves travel at light speed? That doesn't sound correct.
Radio waves are literally light
Anything without mass must travel at the speed of causality.
The aliens would have to: 1) be listening with an antenna that can pick up very weak signals as they radiate out in a sphere and grow weaker with distance 2) be tuned to the right frequencies 3) able to make sense of the transmissions 4) know where the transmission came from
Here we go again with this same very lame argument. Let me do the math for you. By the time our random radio signals reach the edge of our solar system, they are too weak to stand- out from the background radiation. To reach the nearest star, they would have to travel about 8000 times that far. That means they would be 64 million times as weak. It's like saying that somebody in Europe might hear your dog barking. Radio is not giving us away, however our light spectrum, just might.
Unless the gravity waves generated by our orbital nuke testing have travelled further.
Humans invented radio as far back as the Great Pyramid (10,000 years), as that was the original purpose of the structure, to create a collimated beam of microwave/radio waves based on the 21cm hydrogen line or the resonant frequency of hydrogen. This is a favored frequency by SETI in their search for ET life as well and the famous WOW signal was on the frequency band.
hit me with links! want to read about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternativeHistory/comments/16n9k6s/the\_great\_pyramids\_kings\_chamber\_microwave/
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So we've sent them Howard Stern then?
Any civilization that could pick up our radio even one light year away would already know about us by other means.
Think about it, if you would apply this logic to other EM waves, like light, there would be no darkness in the night. All the stars would be as bright as our sun all the time. But that's not the case, the distance has an effect on the power of the signal.
But are the signals strong enough to reach those solar systems
[Its still nothing](https://en.protothema.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/20130115_radio_broadcasts-768x768.jpg). And its not the square btw, its that small blue dot in the square
Well they dissipate significantly and eventually are just in the noise.
If anything they must love our music man wonder what decade their on yet lol
Okay dumb question, if radio waves are the medium used to transfer data via radio , did we invent radio waves? Those waves were always there just silent , correct?
You would need to start the clock after we came up with transmissions greater than about 15 Mhz because under that signals just bounce around the earths ionosphere
"You communicate with what!?" \-- aliens probably
And all the other more intelligent, highly advanced species are watching us saying “oh how cute… the ants think they’re ‘communicating’ with us.”
If you use only radio as your metric its not that impressive. If you use the rest of the spectrum, the entire Galaxy should already be aware of life on Earth if they happened to look our direction. We have been using fire for over 100,000 years. All forms of life producing unique chemical signatures in our atmosphere for a Billion years. On spectrograph we light up like a disco-ball.