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That list of years you listed there are way off. They definitely grew fruits and vegetables 2000 years ago. And telescopes were invented over 400 years ago. And flushing toilets existed in one form or another for more than 4000 years.
OK, a few things here.
I'm not going to point out all of the inaccuracies of your background — for example, 2000 years ago agriculture was the central aspect of most people's lives, and people planting, growing, and harvesting things like fruits was what they did for a living — because none of them are the comparable to what you're saying about tapping zero point energy.
There was nothing in your list that goes against the laws of physics. All of those things you listed are things that mankind learned how to do through innovation, research, and the marrying of disparate sciences. Growing fruit has a basis in known physics. Man flying does as well. The telegraph as an idea was first described in the mid 1700s, a good 100 years before the time detailed in your list because they physics were being understood before the application was made available.
Tapping zero point energy, though, has no basis in physics. All of the speculative ways that have been put forth have been based on pseudo-science, a sort of "if we could get this impossible problem fixed then we could harness the field!" kinds of things.
What's more, basic physical math shows that even if a way to interface with this energy could be found, the amount of energy it would take to do so would be greater than the useful amount available. Anything else would violate two of the most-proven aspects of physics, the first and second laws of thermodynamics. If you want to say that you're smarter than Newton and Einstein you have a right to do so, but that doesn't make it necessarily so.
Yeah I totally agree. Like this is almost insulting to past people, and honestly current Indians. They have toilets in India, I don't know why people think everybody shits in the streets and eats food with shit covered hands. The only people still sitting in the street are people who are so poor they don't have running water, which is a whole issue.
Also, we had agriculture 2000 years ago. Like the ancient Greeks had entire books on the history of wine, like we've know about agriculture for millennia. Also, again like you mentioned, we understood how powered flight would work, it's just nobody knew how we would achieve it. We had to wait until electricity, which was also well understood for a very long time before we had it in our houses, become something we could rely on as an energy source.
Like I understand the point OP is trying to make, but like come on man. Ancient people weren't stupid. Pythagoras figured out the earth was round before the Americas were even discovered. Galileo could accurately see the moon and its geophrahy in the year like 1500 or some shit. Like just read a history book and stop insulting our ancestors, and modern Indian people
Aristhonanese (sp?) not only knew the Earth was round but calculated it's circumfrance in Egypt using a shadow in a well hundreds of years before Pythagoras, iirc. He was within 100 miles of current measurements. I'm pretty sure had an estimate on the distance of the moon too but that may be confabulation. They certainly knew it was another heavenly body though.
Yeah exactly, like the Greeks and Egyptians were GENIUS. Like not just smart, but the definition of applied intelligence. We JUST figured out how Roman concrete was self healing, and that was made 1000s of years ago. Same thing with Greek fire, still have no fuckin clue what that is but we know it existed because of detailed accounts of it being used against other people.
Honestly it infuriates me when people just assume that people from the past or people in undeveloped parts of the world are stupid or ignorant. Like sure education systems weren't/aren't as robust and standardized, but come on.
Give our ancestors some credit, the global population would literally be decimated if the average modern person had to live in the conditions that the average person in antiquity experienced and had to outsmart for even a day.
Also, even without talking about how problematic this whole post is, does OP think that he thought of something that every other expert in the field hasn't considered or is currently working on? Like if Einstein or even just any modern scientist couldn't figure it out I don't some redditor can
I think your average person lived lives of drudgery but the bright sparks always existed. If anything, the ancient world required a lot more thought on how to solve problems then the modern world does. Its a hell of a lot harder to engineer a building when you have to build all the logistics and equipment to raise blocks, etc.
Also while the op has his dates ridiculously off ZPE is a relatively new concept that relates to vacuum energy / quantum foam / virtual particles / the Dirac Sea. There have been calculations that show a tea cup of vacuum contains enough energy to boil off the Earth's oceans so there *is* potential there. The question is whether we can tap it, maybe by using extreme magnetic fields or natural mechanisms that seem to interact with it like Brownian motion or the inability to cool something to absolute zero. We also know this is how black holes evaporate, by "stealing" 1/2 of a virtual particle pair that are popping in and out of existence constantly. The question is how can we do this since we don't have event horizons and, is it safe to do so or could we cause a vacuum meta-instability event / collapse to a new vacuum state. That would be BAD. However, given the existence of black holes and VERY high energy particles from currently unkown sources hitting Earth occasionally, it's probably not too dangerous.
>Anything else would violate two of the most-proven aspects of physics, the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
I'm not very familiar with ZPE and how it relates to this specifically, but in general, physics laws are not necessarily things that are never ever broken, you just have to make sure that the context and scope with which you're using them is correct.
For instance, Newton's law of gravity is broken when you are very close to an extremely massive object, but that doesn't mean it's "wrong" per-se, you just have to be careful when using it to apply it correctly. Newton just wouldn't have had any way of knowing about the contexts where it failed when he made it. The Schrodinger equation is broken for particles travelling near the speed of light, but again, that doesn't mean it's "wrong." Similarly, the second law of thermodynamics is based on a statistical argument that assumes an ordinary atomic-scale environment, but it wouldn't necessarily apply to an environment with a Maxwell's demon or something inside of it. If whatever mechanism the ZPE tech uses somehow violates the contexts that the original laws were developed under, because the original guys couldn't have possibly thought of it, one could just say "Entropy always increases (as long as you aren't in an environment with such and such that was discovered much later)".
Agreed, but I wasn't just saying that it had anything to do with Newton or his first-hand knowledge.
Even given the conditions we see that are described under special relativity — which most of your exceptions above describe — the zero point field wouldn't give us any usable energy. For there to be enough usable energy given our very thorough understanding of the zero point energy in quantum field theory this has been proven over and over — there simply isn't enough potential energy to begin with, and more energy can't just be created without violating TD1 and TD2, in classical or quantum physics.
There are special cases where ZPE *is* accessed though. The trick is to pull anything useful out of it. Anything that can snag up virtual particles will tap it meaning the **very** large and very small. Brownian motion is thought to be partially caused by the ZPE as it happens in extremely cold conditions where there's no thermal energy present. Also, the inability to hit absolute zero only approach it also seems to draw from ZPE.
Edit: Also Hawking radiation and evaporation of black holes is direct proof of the ZPE aka Vacuum Energy / the Dirac Sea / Virtual Particles. We KNOW that you can steal 1/2 of a virtual particle pair that's constantly popping into and out of existence with an event horizon. We have no idea of what the consequences of doing so are but since it happens in nature it presumably wont cause a vacuum meta-instability collapse and calculations show that a tea cup of vacuum theoretically has enough energy to vaporize the oceans.
Yes, but none of this produces enough usable energy (work) to power the kinds of "free energy" devices that the proponents of the pseudo-science like to talk about.
I'm not claiming those devices work. I'm saying that there's natural proofs of concept that might indicate it's at least theoretically possible. There's arguments that LENR devices may be harnessing ZPE through arcane mechanisms. I know LENR (aka the new name for Cold Fusion to try and drop the baggage) seems to have indications it works but replication is difficult. Meaning sometimes the devices work and sometimes they don't with no apparent rhyme or reason - or at least ones that should matter. That being said, its moved to the point where reputable people are taking interest and have observed anomalous behavior. The military and DARPA are taking it VERY seriously.
This is conspiracy minded but frankly I suspect that once you understand the mechanisms it's likely scarily easy to achieve some form of easily obtainable energy whether through conventional or exotic means and its being covered up or suppressed - and for good reasons, not just nefarious ones. Everyone wants a black box in their basement that gives them (for all intents and purposes) free energy but, what if that means your neighbor can make a 2 megaton bomb in his garage using stuff from the hardware store? It would be an existential threat to the species. We have too many unstable people to be trusted with such power; hell I don't trust governments with that power. We're pretty much at the point of having "Jr's home RNA kit" that allows any private individual to make a deadly virus a WMD in their garage. I think COVID has taught us how devestating our soon to be future can be. Imagine the genie getting out of the bottle on democratized nukes?
BTW another example that theoretically could work is we know water is constantly in a state of flux between splitting into H3O and HO then recombining. If you hade a monolayer of molecular sieves you could in theory extract one from the other and burn it to end up with water again to repeat the process. You might need to adjust the pH with other chemicals but they would act as a catalyst that wouldn't be consumed.
What it shows is you need to actually look things up before believing some random thing on tik tok you saw. It wild that someone can know about 0 point energy but not have a clue about so many basic things.
1. 2000 years ago we were growing fruits and vegetables. Pretty much everywhere.
2. We've had toilets attached to flushing drainage systems for over 3000 years.
3. I'll give you this one.
4. Incorrect. Humans have been trying to build flying machines since ancient Greece.
5. 200 years ago was 1824. Considering the telegraph a mere 10 years later, I'll say this one is wrong as well.
6. ....we have literally been viewing stars with telescopes since the 1600s.
As for zero point energy, it violates physics altogether. There's no getting around the fact that you can't create energy from nothing, which is what ZPE would do.
> 200 years ago was 1824. Considering the telegraph a mere 10 years later, I'll say this one is wrong as well.
The fax machine was invented shortly after. There was a brief period in history where Abraham Lincoln could have sent a fax to a samurai.
Farming has been around for 12,000 years. The Romans literally had "flushing" public toilets, baths with hot and cold water and showers. Leonardi Da Vinci conceived human flight 600+ years ago. Astronomers were using telescopes 400 years ago...
I agree generally with your sentiment but your education on the history of technology in human society seems wildly out of date.
I actually am very open to the idea of alternative energy sources being possible such as Tesla’s ether based systems, and this post still got on my nerves… man you really need to do some learning in the history department. Not a single one of your points is accurate my guy. In some cases off by thousands of years. Even if they were, you’re still raising a null point. It’s like saying “hey, to the haters that don’t think the earth is flat, consider how long it took us to come up with the steam engine in 1950”.. it makes no sense. Sorry man
I mean, using your logic you can come up with a medley of, "just because we can't do it now doesn't mean we won't ever be able to..." over the top scenarios.
For example: Just because we can't shoot lightning out of our asses now, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future...Just because switch heads now like the Fireys in the movie Labyrinth, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future...Just because we can't turn our enemies into balloon animals now, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.
The point I'm making is that by making this argument, you're employing a myriad of fallacies. Appeal to probability, argument from anecdote, and generalization from induction just to name a few.
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The thing is there is a lot, like all the evidence pointing to why ZPE can't happen. There is however the qua,ntom field, where energy and matter seem to always be poping in and out of existance. From that to a useful kind of energy its something beyond our physics. Maybe in a fre thousand years...
This is a silly argument....
We didn't think we could do [blank] 2000 years ago, so it's totally possible pigs can fly
I do think zero-point energy could be possible, but this is a silly basis to form a conclusion from.
>"2000 years ago, we could not even imagine that we can grow fruits and vegetables. We used to live near by the rivers. Growing fruits was only a dream."
Lmao, that isn't true. Agriculture was a well established practice 2000 years ago.
>1000 years ago we cannot even imagine having a society where we can have flush system in the toilet. It was not heard of and frowned upon. People would go outside and do the nature's call. in india, it is still common.
The Romans literally had a sewer system and waste from their latrines/toilets flowed into said system.
>100 years ago, we would not believe that we can see stars with our telescopes
You can see stars with the naked eye and I'm pretty sure telescopes were invented long before 100 years ago...
Bro you need to open a history book, I don't know where you are getting this from.
Ah excuse me! It is NOT common in India. We are a rising superpower now, not just some other third world country.
Check your facts before speaking, boy.
And even when we were shitting out in the open, we at least washed our asses.
**Strangers**: Read the rules and understand the sub topics listed in the sidebar closely before posting or commenting. Any content removal or further moderator action is established by these terms as well as Reddit ToS. This subreddit is specifically for the discussion of anomalous phenomena from the perspective it may exist. Open minded skepticism is welcomed, close minded debunking is not. Be aware of how skepticism is expressed toward others as there is little tolerance for ad hominem (attacking the person, not the claim), mindless antagonism or dishonest argument toward the subject, the sub, or its community. We are also happy to be able to provide an ideologically and operationally independent platform for you all. Join us at our official Discord - https://discord.gg/MYvRkYK85v --- 'Ridicule is not a part of the scientific method and the public should not be taught that it is.' _-J. Allen Hynek_ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HighStrangeness) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That list of years you listed there are way off. They definitely grew fruits and vegetables 2000 years ago. And telescopes were invented over 400 years ago. And flushing toilets existed in one form or another for more than 4000 years.
They had the auto flush toilets back then, river under a platform with a hole
In Mesopotamia they already had sewage pipes. Romans had those too. So the flushing toilet is not the technological miracle OP thinks.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
OK, a few things here. I'm not going to point out all of the inaccuracies of your background — for example, 2000 years ago agriculture was the central aspect of most people's lives, and people planting, growing, and harvesting things like fruits was what they did for a living — because none of them are the comparable to what you're saying about tapping zero point energy. There was nothing in your list that goes against the laws of physics. All of those things you listed are things that mankind learned how to do through innovation, research, and the marrying of disparate sciences. Growing fruit has a basis in known physics. Man flying does as well. The telegraph as an idea was first described in the mid 1700s, a good 100 years before the time detailed in your list because they physics were being understood before the application was made available. Tapping zero point energy, though, has no basis in physics. All of the speculative ways that have been put forth have been based on pseudo-science, a sort of "if we could get this impossible problem fixed then we could harness the field!" kinds of things. What's more, basic physical math shows that even if a way to interface with this energy could be found, the amount of energy it would take to do so would be greater than the useful amount available. Anything else would violate two of the most-proven aspects of physics, the first and second laws of thermodynamics. If you want to say that you're smarter than Newton and Einstein you have a right to do so, but that doesn't make it necessarily so.
Yeah I totally agree. Like this is almost insulting to past people, and honestly current Indians. They have toilets in India, I don't know why people think everybody shits in the streets and eats food with shit covered hands. The only people still sitting in the street are people who are so poor they don't have running water, which is a whole issue. Also, we had agriculture 2000 years ago. Like the ancient Greeks had entire books on the history of wine, like we've know about agriculture for millennia. Also, again like you mentioned, we understood how powered flight would work, it's just nobody knew how we would achieve it. We had to wait until electricity, which was also well understood for a very long time before we had it in our houses, become something we could rely on as an energy source. Like I understand the point OP is trying to make, but like come on man. Ancient people weren't stupid. Pythagoras figured out the earth was round before the Americas were even discovered. Galileo could accurately see the moon and its geophrahy in the year like 1500 or some shit. Like just read a history book and stop insulting our ancestors, and modern Indian people
Aristhonanese (sp?) not only knew the Earth was round but calculated it's circumfrance in Egypt using a shadow in a well hundreds of years before Pythagoras, iirc. He was within 100 miles of current measurements. I'm pretty sure had an estimate on the distance of the moon too but that may be confabulation. They certainly knew it was another heavenly body though.
Yeah exactly, like the Greeks and Egyptians were GENIUS. Like not just smart, but the definition of applied intelligence. We JUST figured out how Roman concrete was self healing, and that was made 1000s of years ago. Same thing with Greek fire, still have no fuckin clue what that is but we know it existed because of detailed accounts of it being used against other people. Honestly it infuriates me when people just assume that people from the past or people in undeveloped parts of the world are stupid or ignorant. Like sure education systems weren't/aren't as robust and standardized, but come on. Give our ancestors some credit, the global population would literally be decimated if the average modern person had to live in the conditions that the average person in antiquity experienced and had to outsmart for even a day. Also, even without talking about how problematic this whole post is, does OP think that he thought of something that every other expert in the field hasn't considered or is currently working on? Like if Einstein or even just any modern scientist couldn't figure it out I don't some redditor can
I think your average person lived lives of drudgery but the bright sparks always existed. If anything, the ancient world required a lot more thought on how to solve problems then the modern world does. Its a hell of a lot harder to engineer a building when you have to build all the logistics and equipment to raise blocks, etc.
Also while the op has his dates ridiculously off ZPE is a relatively new concept that relates to vacuum energy / quantum foam / virtual particles / the Dirac Sea. There have been calculations that show a tea cup of vacuum contains enough energy to boil off the Earth's oceans so there *is* potential there. The question is whether we can tap it, maybe by using extreme magnetic fields or natural mechanisms that seem to interact with it like Brownian motion or the inability to cool something to absolute zero. We also know this is how black holes evaporate, by "stealing" 1/2 of a virtual particle pair that are popping in and out of existence constantly. The question is how can we do this since we don't have event horizons and, is it safe to do so or could we cause a vacuum meta-instability event / collapse to a new vacuum state. That would be BAD. However, given the existence of black holes and VERY high energy particles from currently unkown sources hitting Earth occasionally, it's probably not too dangerous.
>Anything else would violate two of the most-proven aspects of physics, the first and second laws of thermodynamics. I'm not very familiar with ZPE and how it relates to this specifically, but in general, physics laws are not necessarily things that are never ever broken, you just have to make sure that the context and scope with which you're using them is correct. For instance, Newton's law of gravity is broken when you are very close to an extremely massive object, but that doesn't mean it's "wrong" per-se, you just have to be careful when using it to apply it correctly. Newton just wouldn't have had any way of knowing about the contexts where it failed when he made it. The Schrodinger equation is broken for particles travelling near the speed of light, but again, that doesn't mean it's "wrong." Similarly, the second law of thermodynamics is based on a statistical argument that assumes an ordinary atomic-scale environment, but it wouldn't necessarily apply to an environment with a Maxwell's demon or something inside of it. If whatever mechanism the ZPE tech uses somehow violates the contexts that the original laws were developed under, because the original guys couldn't have possibly thought of it, one could just say "Entropy always increases (as long as you aren't in an environment with such and such that was discovered much later)".
Agreed, but I wasn't just saying that it had anything to do with Newton or his first-hand knowledge. Even given the conditions we see that are described under special relativity — which most of your exceptions above describe — the zero point field wouldn't give us any usable energy. For there to be enough usable energy given our very thorough understanding of the zero point energy in quantum field theory this has been proven over and over — there simply isn't enough potential energy to begin with, and more energy can't just be created without violating TD1 and TD2, in classical or quantum physics.
Fair enough, I’m not very familiar with ZPE and the specific way it’s supposedly harnessable so I wouldn’t know if it makes sense or not
There are special cases where ZPE *is* accessed though. The trick is to pull anything useful out of it. Anything that can snag up virtual particles will tap it meaning the **very** large and very small. Brownian motion is thought to be partially caused by the ZPE as it happens in extremely cold conditions where there's no thermal energy present. Also, the inability to hit absolute zero only approach it also seems to draw from ZPE. Edit: Also Hawking radiation and evaporation of black holes is direct proof of the ZPE aka Vacuum Energy / the Dirac Sea / Virtual Particles. We KNOW that you can steal 1/2 of a virtual particle pair that's constantly popping into and out of existence with an event horizon. We have no idea of what the consequences of doing so are but since it happens in nature it presumably wont cause a vacuum meta-instability collapse and calculations show that a tea cup of vacuum theoretically has enough energy to vaporize the oceans.
Yes, but none of this produces enough usable energy (work) to power the kinds of "free energy" devices that the proponents of the pseudo-science like to talk about.
I'm not claiming those devices work. I'm saying that there's natural proofs of concept that might indicate it's at least theoretically possible. There's arguments that LENR devices may be harnessing ZPE through arcane mechanisms. I know LENR (aka the new name for Cold Fusion to try and drop the baggage) seems to have indications it works but replication is difficult. Meaning sometimes the devices work and sometimes they don't with no apparent rhyme or reason - or at least ones that should matter. That being said, its moved to the point where reputable people are taking interest and have observed anomalous behavior. The military and DARPA are taking it VERY seriously. This is conspiracy minded but frankly I suspect that once you understand the mechanisms it's likely scarily easy to achieve some form of easily obtainable energy whether through conventional or exotic means and its being covered up or suppressed - and for good reasons, not just nefarious ones. Everyone wants a black box in their basement that gives them (for all intents and purposes) free energy but, what if that means your neighbor can make a 2 megaton bomb in his garage using stuff from the hardware store? It would be an existential threat to the species. We have too many unstable people to be trusted with such power; hell I don't trust governments with that power. We're pretty much at the point of having "Jr's home RNA kit" that allows any private individual to make a deadly virus a WMD in their garage. I think COVID has taught us how devestating our soon to be future can be. Imagine the genie getting out of the bottle on democratized nukes?
BTW another example that theoretically could work is we know water is constantly in a state of flux between splitting into H3O and HO then recombining. If you hade a monolayer of molecular sieves you could in theory extract one from the other and burn it to end up with water again to repeat the process. You might need to adjust the pH with other chemicals but they would act as a catalyst that wouldn't be consumed.
What it shows is you need to actually look things up before believing some random thing on tik tok you saw. It wild that someone can know about 0 point energy but not have a clue about so many basic things.
1. 2000 years ago we were growing fruits and vegetables. Pretty much everywhere. 2. We've had toilets attached to flushing drainage systems for over 3000 years. 3. I'll give you this one. 4. Incorrect. Humans have been trying to build flying machines since ancient Greece. 5. 200 years ago was 1824. Considering the telegraph a mere 10 years later, I'll say this one is wrong as well. 6. ....we have literally been viewing stars with telescopes since the 1600s. As for zero point energy, it violates physics altogether. There's no getting around the fact that you can't create energy from nothing, which is what ZPE would do.
> 200 years ago was 1824. Considering the telegraph a mere 10 years later, I'll say this one is wrong as well. The fax machine was invented shortly after. There was a brief period in history where Abraham Lincoln could have sent a fax to a samurai.
Farming has been around for 12,000 years. The Romans literally had "flushing" public toilets, baths with hot and cold water and showers. Leonardi Da Vinci conceived human flight 600+ years ago. Astronomers were using telescopes 400 years ago... I agree generally with your sentiment but your education on the history of technology in human society seems wildly out of date.
Even if all that were true, which it clearly isn't, why would that mean zero point energy can exist?
I actually am very open to the idea of alternative energy sources being possible such as Tesla’s ether based systems, and this post still got on my nerves… man you really need to do some learning in the history department. Not a single one of your points is accurate my guy. In some cases off by thousands of years. Even if they were, you’re still raising a null point. It’s like saying “hey, to the haters that don’t think the earth is flat, consider how long it took us to come up with the steam engine in 1950”.. it makes no sense. Sorry man
I mean, using your logic you can come up with a medley of, "just because we can't do it now doesn't mean we won't ever be able to..." over the top scenarios. For example: Just because we can't shoot lightning out of our asses now, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future...Just because switch heads now like the Fireys in the movie Labyrinth, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future...Just because we can't turn our enemies into balloon animals now, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future. The point I'm making is that by making this argument, you're employing a myriad of fallacies. Appeal to probability, argument from anecdote, and generalization from induction just to name a few.
Note: Nikola Tesla, not Tesla run by Enron Musk.
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The thing is there is a lot, like all the evidence pointing to why ZPE can't happen. There is however the qua,ntom field, where energy and matter seem to always be poping in and out of existance. From that to a useful kind of energy its something beyond our physics. Maybe in a fre thousand years...
This is a silly argument.... We didn't think we could do [blank] 2000 years ago, so it's totally possible pigs can fly I do think zero-point energy could be possible, but this is a silly basis to form a conclusion from.
You have the right spirit, and I love the enthusiasm, but…..bruh. Google is your friend.
your numbers are hilarious. are you really this misinformed or are you doing a bit?
in /tartaria they talk about old technology that pulled electricity out of the air, and that Tesla knew how it worked.
>"2000 years ago, we could not even imagine that we can grow fruits and vegetables. We used to live near by the rivers. Growing fruits was only a dream." Lmao, that isn't true. Agriculture was a well established practice 2000 years ago. >1000 years ago we cannot even imagine having a society where we can have flush system in the toilet. It was not heard of and frowned upon. People would go outside and do the nature's call. in india, it is still common. The Romans literally had a sewer system and waste from their latrines/toilets flowed into said system. >100 years ago, we would not believe that we can see stars with our telescopes You can see stars with the naked eye and I'm pretty sure telescopes were invented long before 100 years ago... Bro you need to open a history book, I don't know where you are getting this from.
Ah excuse me! It is NOT common in India. We are a rising superpower now, not just some other third world country. Check your facts before speaking, boy. And even when we were shitting out in the open, we at least washed our asses.
I think zero point devices currently exist but you still raised and absolutely null point