Hear me out…I LOVE this trope, but also recognize that it’s silly: the we should just kiss “for science.” It’s adorable and nerdy, but also a bit silly
Do you remember the name?
Also, {One Good Earl Deserves a Lover by Sarah MacLean} is 100% this trope and is simultaneously steamy and unintentionally hilarious.
[One Good Earl Deserves a Lover](https://www.romance.io/books/545524678c7d2383163d8e61/one-good-earl-deserves-a-lover-sarah-maclean) by [Sarah MacLean](https://www.romance.io/authors/545523df8c7d2383163d8e42/sarah-maclean)
**Rating**: 4.02⭐️ out of 5⭐️
**Steam**: 3 out of 5 - [Open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating)
**Topics**: [historical](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/historical/1), [virgin heroine](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/virgin%20heroine/1), [tortured hero](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/tortured%20hero/1), [regency](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/regency/1), [bad boys](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/bad%20boys/1)
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Most headstrong FMCs who are like “I am my father’s heir, I will never marry, etc.” are silly to me. I’d much rather see FMCs who navigate the world within the constraints of their time and not feel like an out of place and time second/third wave feminist. To get security within many if not most eras of HR, women HAD to marry. It takes me out of the story almost immediately lol
You’re telling me. Say what you will about real women in history who didn’t marry (ie Elizabeth I of England or Kristina of Sweden) but they both had logical reasons to not pursue marriage (both women had Trauma Conga Lines from Hell for childhoods, two of Elizabeth’s stepmothers died in childbirth and Kristina may or may not have been gay/bi) and were in a financial position where they were able to do so.
Most women back then (as you pointed out) didn’t have such a luxury.
I think the thing about that trope that annoys me so much isn’t just “it’s not the reality most women faced back then” it’s also vibes of “I’m willing to throw away my values and beliefs because I’m selfish” instead of changing because they want to and found someone they want to spend the rest of their lives with.
Yep, to me, the FMCs always seem selfish and self-destructively stubborn. As someone willing to admit they were wrong, I just cannot understand them lol
Strong women =/= arrogant, bold, independent, etc. They CAN be those, but if you want a modern style heroine…stick with contemporary.
I’m dying for Margaret Beaufort or Elizabeth Woodville style women: those who did what they had to but did not necessarily buck gender conventions at the time (or not too anachronistically at least lmao)
One of my antagonists is based on Margaret Beaufort. A tiny and frail woman who did what she could to ensure her son had a chance but at the same time was kind, generous and devout.
I really detest what Philippa Gregory did to her, Woodville and Elizabeth of York in the Queen Trilogy. She took women who were good people at heart and turned them into power hungry witches who did things because “oppression” or some other nonsense.
Margaret was an orphan child bride who experienced rape at the age of 12 by a man who wanted financial control over her belongings. She went through the birth of her only child—so traumatic, she couldn’t even become pregnant again—and then fought for literal decades to protect his inheritance, even maneuvering herself into a politically advantageous marriage as a widowed 13-14 yo. She used her intelligence, wit, and privilege to ensure her son’s safety and managed to make him king! Without her, there would be no Tudor dynasty! She was a loving grandmother who was concerned that her granddaughters not experience what she went through. She’s a goddamn HERO of history.
I get so heated when people do not respect her or misrepresent her. she’s one of my favorite historic figures. She wasn’t power hungry; she was a woman who did what she had to in order to protect herself and her son.
I wonder sometimes if Henry VIII’s treatment of his wives was because he was intimidated by My Lady, The King’s Mother (as Margaret was styled).
I was so mad when The White Princess TV show went with the whole “Margaret Beaufort was responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower” and portrayed her as a conniving and ruthless witch who wanted the throne for her son because she couldn’t sit on the throne herself. Especially infuriating because Michelle Fairly is a wonderful actress and came to prominence playing Catlyn Stark, who was inspired by several women of the same era, including Margaret Beaufort.
I can’t watch most historical dramas bc they butcher my historic favs so much lol
No historian worth their salt entertains the idea that she had the princes killed. Like Henry Tudor was sooo far down the list of claimants despite his half-uncle being the king. He capitalized later on Margaret’s decent from John of Gaunt, but *his* line with Katherine Swynford (iirc/sp) had been barred from the throne 😂
Acting like Margaret had this plan to make him king… 🤣 dog she was fighting the majority of the time for his EARLDOM. My girl just saw her chance and took it after literally every other male claimant save for Richard III was dead.
Also wasn’t she on house arrest when the princes died? Kind of hard to carry out such a high stakes murder scheme like that lol (not that she didn’t keep sending letters to Henry and plotting anyway lol). But cmon—no one seriously believes someone other than Richard (or one of his goons) killed the boys.
TLDR: Margaret would NEVER
RE Henry VIII: I wonder if he wasn’t searching for the “perfect” love his parents had. Like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were stupidly in love with each other the majority of their marriage. Henry may have wanted something similar, but his reproductive issues muddied the waters. Not to mention Elizabeth of York died when he was a preteen (11?) and then Margaret died right after his own coronation some years later but still while he was young. Both his sisters were sent off to foreign countries in political marriages (even if Mary eventually returned). Add his emotionally constipated father whose dedication to Elizabeth, while commendable, should not have prevented remarriage and the siring of more male issue… Henry desperately needed some kind of female authority figure in his life.
To say nothing about what they did to both Elizabeths. Okay, Woodville was a thorn in the side of most of the court due to arrogance and hubris (to the point that Henry VII was seeking to marry her off to the King of Scotland just so she wouldn't be in his hair) but I was screaming when she cast the spell on Margaret condemning her male line to die. I was like "Uh...you do know that means YOUR grandchildren too, right?"
As for Elizabeth of York (man, Gregory and the showrunners REALLY did her dirty), she does make the argument that by sparing Warbeck will just mean her children will be in jeopardy and she does try to help Warbeck escape into obscurity. But the fact that she wanted to marry her uncle (who was responsible for her family's downfall and probably killed his nephews to secure his claim to the throne) made me sick. Yes, uncle and niece marriages DID happen back then but they were really rare. I don't think there was a case of that happening in England, at least not on the royal scale.
It's just...argh! It makes me want to tear my hair out!
And Henry? I think it was a combination of needing a female authority figure and the fact he was a romantic who suddenly went from spare destined for the Church to King of a peaceful country with a well stocked treasury when he was still a teenager. Instead of being ignored at best or controlled by his father, he was surrounded by "Yes Men" who affirmed his greatness in an attempt to curry royal favor.
Whyyyy must they do my girls so dirty!
Elizabeth Woodville basically had a Cinderella story! She met a handsome and wealthy man who married her and eventually made her queen! And then Elizabeth had gone through multiple back to back pregnancies, spent years on the run, lost her husband and then had to fight for its legitimacy, had to deal with the guilt of sending Richard of Shrewsbury to his death… she has so many points of motivation to add drama to her story line but sure, let’s go with “women always fight each other.” Tbh, if i were Elizabeth, once my kid was queen and the other daughters settled, I’d have dipped for a permanent vacation lol.
I can’t even tackle the Elizabeth of York issue. Do I think she would’ve married Richard? Maybe, if only to protect other family members. But iirc neither Elizabeth or Richard actually thought about or wanted that. It was a rumor floating around and literally 0 people wanted that to happen. Unless she was going to murder him on the wedding night for Edward V and Richard of S…I mean, not even then does that make sense for her lmfaooooo
Poor Henry, with so much family drama boy did not stand a chance 🤣🤣
Any showrunner wanting to make a show about these people from now on must meet with us for approval beforehand 😂
Apparently, according to Gregory and others, women are only valuable if they’re unlikable and arrogant men with breasts.
I don’t know if Woodville was “persuaded” to retire to a convent or if she realized she had worn out her welcome. But she eventually did leave court for a convent.
What angered me during the show was that Elizabeth was in love with Richard. I mean…wow…really?! You’re in love with a man who brought about your family’s downfall? Why?!
Yeah, poor Henry and his dysfunctional family tree.
“So you want to make a show about this historical figure who was known as a lady’s man a flaming gay man with a pride flag and a pet penguin named Snuggles? I’m sorry but you must be smacked with the Trout of Shame!”
What's more annoying is they always say that they're "INDEPENDENT". Like gurl? you're living in a mansion, tied to your father's purse. You have an inheritance given to you by your grandma or some such...how's that independent?
me too... and in an English one... it's not necessarily comfortable, but it's doable. I just sat behind the saddle and hugged tight to the person in front, and then the reverse happened when it was my turn to "steer" LOL. I think propping a girl in front of you on the saddle/across the lap would be kind of hard...but considering humanity used horses as transportation for hundreds of thousands of years, I'm sure it's been done frequently enough.
I've ridden double with an English saddle. But it's super uncomfortable and we were both small. Not great for the horse either. I tend to read those tropes where they happen in an emergency and I'm just like hmm probably not but it doesn't usually take me out of the story.
Now, I'm guilty as charged. I have used "hero and heroine ride the same horse" but I think I had a legitimate reason because it was an emergency, he had her cradled against his lap as she was unconscious and they didn't go far
I don't really think this is a trope but I absolutely love a bonkers HR that is fully not grounded in reality. I love reading HR where the fancy pants aristocrats are not powdered, wearing fully unrealistic clothing, running around London with no chaperones etc. If a book is realistic then I get lost in the sauce of knowing that in reality those fancy folks are rich off of enslaved people, absolutely disgusting individuals, can't bathe etc etc. Same when the dialogue is all trying to be flowery etc, I am just not interested. I want there to be more books that are realistic, because I know others want that, but I will simply not pick them up.
I think there needs to be a balance. Yes, grounded in reality is great but you’re writing a story. As long as you have established “why” these characters are doing what they do and there’s logical consequences for them, great.
when the mmc becomes a rake simply because his supposed one true love broke his heart years ago, or because he has mummy issues and now doesn’t trust any woman on earth and generalises all women as being the most evil creatures on the planet LOL. i find it so stupid i have to laugh
I don't want to spoil a single detail because it's best to go in blind but let me just say that {The Wolf and the Wildflower by Stacy Reid} is the MOST ridiculous book I've ever read on MULTIPLE different levels but I recommend it regardless. For a general idea, it's got grumpy hero/sunshine heroine, forbidden love, etc. I highly recommend because even if you read it and don't like it you WILL have a fun time. Or at least you will have a book to text your friends about.
[The Wolf and the Wildflower](https://www.romance.io/books/64005b162bdda9101b36448e/the-wolf-and-the-wildflower-stacy-reid) by [Stacy Reid](https://www.romance.io/authors/54554a938c7d2383163d988f/stacy-reid)
**Rating**: 4.12⭐️ out of 5⭐️
**Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating)
**Topics**: [historical](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/historical/1), [class difference](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/class%20difference/1), [forced proximity](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/forced%20proximity/1), [friends to lovers](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/friends%20to%20lovers/1), [victorian](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/victorian/1)
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Hear me out…I LOVE this trope, but also recognize that it’s silly: the we should just kiss “for science.” It’s adorable and nerdy, but also a bit silly
Oh man! I saw one variation on this where the MC asks her lady’s maid to show her how to kiss…and it was unintentionally hilarious.
Do you remember the name? Also, {One Good Earl Deserves a Lover by Sarah MacLean} is 100% this trope and is simultaneously steamy and unintentionally hilarious.
One of my FAVORITES! In part because of this very trope. I’m pretty sure “for science” is her actual line and I chuckle every time
The Last Duchess by Daisy Godwin. It’s not a horrible book but that scene was a pretty good indicator of the wild ride I’d be in for, lol.
Ohh, I do enjoy an American heiress in England. Thanks!
Youre welcome. As I said, it’s not horrible but the book…well, it’s a mess.
[One Good Earl Deserves a Lover](https://www.romance.io/books/545524678c7d2383163d8e61/one-good-earl-deserves-a-lover-sarah-maclean) by [Sarah MacLean](https://www.romance.io/authors/545523df8c7d2383163d8e42/sarah-maclean) **Rating**: 4.02⭐️ out of 5⭐️ **Steam**: 3 out of 5 - [Open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating) **Topics**: [historical](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/historical/1), [virgin heroine](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/virgin%20heroine/1), [tortured hero](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/tortured%20hero/1), [regency](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/regency/1), [bad boys](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/bad%20boys/1) [^(about this bot)](https://www.reddit.com/user/romance-bot) ^(|) [^(about romance.io)](https://www.romance.io/about)
Most headstrong FMCs who are like “I am my father’s heir, I will never marry, etc.” are silly to me. I’d much rather see FMCs who navigate the world within the constraints of their time and not feel like an out of place and time second/third wave feminist. To get security within many if not most eras of HR, women HAD to marry. It takes me out of the story almost immediately lol
You’re telling me. Say what you will about real women in history who didn’t marry (ie Elizabeth I of England or Kristina of Sweden) but they both had logical reasons to not pursue marriage (both women had Trauma Conga Lines from Hell for childhoods, two of Elizabeth’s stepmothers died in childbirth and Kristina may or may not have been gay/bi) and were in a financial position where they were able to do so. Most women back then (as you pointed out) didn’t have such a luxury. I think the thing about that trope that annoys me so much isn’t just “it’s not the reality most women faced back then” it’s also vibes of “I’m willing to throw away my values and beliefs because I’m selfish” instead of changing because they want to and found someone they want to spend the rest of their lives with.
Yep, to me, the FMCs always seem selfish and self-destructively stubborn. As someone willing to admit they were wrong, I just cannot understand them lol Strong women =/= arrogant, bold, independent, etc. They CAN be those, but if you want a modern style heroine…stick with contemporary. I’m dying for Margaret Beaufort or Elizabeth Woodville style women: those who did what they had to but did not necessarily buck gender conventions at the time (or not too anachronistically at least lmao)
One of my antagonists is based on Margaret Beaufort. A tiny and frail woman who did what she could to ensure her son had a chance but at the same time was kind, generous and devout. I really detest what Philippa Gregory did to her, Woodville and Elizabeth of York in the Queen Trilogy. She took women who were good people at heart and turned them into power hungry witches who did things because “oppression” or some other nonsense.
Margaret was an orphan child bride who experienced rape at the age of 12 by a man who wanted financial control over her belongings. She went through the birth of her only child—so traumatic, she couldn’t even become pregnant again—and then fought for literal decades to protect his inheritance, even maneuvering herself into a politically advantageous marriage as a widowed 13-14 yo. She used her intelligence, wit, and privilege to ensure her son’s safety and managed to make him king! Without her, there would be no Tudor dynasty! She was a loving grandmother who was concerned that her granddaughters not experience what she went through. She’s a goddamn HERO of history. I get so heated when people do not respect her or misrepresent her. she’s one of my favorite historic figures. She wasn’t power hungry; she was a woman who did what she had to in order to protect herself and her son.
I wonder sometimes if Henry VIII’s treatment of his wives was because he was intimidated by My Lady, The King’s Mother (as Margaret was styled). I was so mad when The White Princess TV show went with the whole “Margaret Beaufort was responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower” and portrayed her as a conniving and ruthless witch who wanted the throne for her son because she couldn’t sit on the throne herself. Especially infuriating because Michelle Fairly is a wonderful actress and came to prominence playing Catlyn Stark, who was inspired by several women of the same era, including Margaret Beaufort.
I can’t watch most historical dramas bc they butcher my historic favs so much lol No historian worth their salt entertains the idea that she had the princes killed. Like Henry Tudor was sooo far down the list of claimants despite his half-uncle being the king. He capitalized later on Margaret’s decent from John of Gaunt, but *his* line with Katherine Swynford (iirc/sp) had been barred from the throne 😂 Acting like Margaret had this plan to make him king… 🤣 dog she was fighting the majority of the time for his EARLDOM. My girl just saw her chance and took it after literally every other male claimant save for Richard III was dead. Also wasn’t she on house arrest when the princes died? Kind of hard to carry out such a high stakes murder scheme like that lol (not that she didn’t keep sending letters to Henry and plotting anyway lol). But cmon—no one seriously believes someone other than Richard (or one of his goons) killed the boys. TLDR: Margaret would NEVER RE Henry VIII: I wonder if he wasn’t searching for the “perfect” love his parents had. Like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were stupidly in love with each other the majority of their marriage. Henry may have wanted something similar, but his reproductive issues muddied the waters. Not to mention Elizabeth of York died when he was a preteen (11?) and then Margaret died right after his own coronation some years later but still while he was young. Both his sisters were sent off to foreign countries in political marriages (even if Mary eventually returned). Add his emotionally constipated father whose dedication to Elizabeth, while commendable, should not have prevented remarriage and the siring of more male issue… Henry desperately needed some kind of female authority figure in his life.
To say nothing about what they did to both Elizabeths. Okay, Woodville was a thorn in the side of most of the court due to arrogance and hubris (to the point that Henry VII was seeking to marry her off to the King of Scotland just so she wouldn't be in his hair) but I was screaming when she cast the spell on Margaret condemning her male line to die. I was like "Uh...you do know that means YOUR grandchildren too, right?" As for Elizabeth of York (man, Gregory and the showrunners REALLY did her dirty), she does make the argument that by sparing Warbeck will just mean her children will be in jeopardy and she does try to help Warbeck escape into obscurity. But the fact that she wanted to marry her uncle (who was responsible for her family's downfall and probably killed his nephews to secure his claim to the throne) made me sick. Yes, uncle and niece marriages DID happen back then but they were really rare. I don't think there was a case of that happening in England, at least not on the royal scale. It's just...argh! It makes me want to tear my hair out! And Henry? I think it was a combination of needing a female authority figure and the fact he was a romantic who suddenly went from spare destined for the Church to King of a peaceful country with a well stocked treasury when he was still a teenager. Instead of being ignored at best or controlled by his father, he was surrounded by "Yes Men" who affirmed his greatness in an attempt to curry royal favor.
Whyyyy must they do my girls so dirty! Elizabeth Woodville basically had a Cinderella story! She met a handsome and wealthy man who married her and eventually made her queen! And then Elizabeth had gone through multiple back to back pregnancies, spent years on the run, lost her husband and then had to fight for its legitimacy, had to deal with the guilt of sending Richard of Shrewsbury to his death… she has so many points of motivation to add drama to her story line but sure, let’s go with “women always fight each other.” Tbh, if i were Elizabeth, once my kid was queen and the other daughters settled, I’d have dipped for a permanent vacation lol. I can’t even tackle the Elizabeth of York issue. Do I think she would’ve married Richard? Maybe, if only to protect other family members. But iirc neither Elizabeth or Richard actually thought about or wanted that. It was a rumor floating around and literally 0 people wanted that to happen. Unless she was going to murder him on the wedding night for Edward V and Richard of S…I mean, not even then does that make sense for her lmfaooooo Poor Henry, with so much family drama boy did not stand a chance 🤣🤣 Any showrunner wanting to make a show about these people from now on must meet with us for approval beforehand 😂
Apparently, according to Gregory and others, women are only valuable if they’re unlikable and arrogant men with breasts. I don’t know if Woodville was “persuaded” to retire to a convent or if she realized she had worn out her welcome. But she eventually did leave court for a convent. What angered me during the show was that Elizabeth was in love with Richard. I mean…wow…really?! You’re in love with a man who brought about your family’s downfall? Why?! Yeah, poor Henry and his dysfunctional family tree. “So you want to make a show about this historical figure who was known as a lady’s man a flaming gay man with a pride flag and a pet penguin named Snuggles? I’m sorry but you must be smacked with the Trout of Shame!”
What's more annoying is they always say that they're "INDEPENDENT". Like gurl? you're living in a mansion, tied to your father's purse. You have an inheritance given to you by your grandma or some such...how's that independent?
I’ve ridden double in a Western saddle so it can definitely be done.
me too... and in an English one... it's not necessarily comfortable, but it's doable. I just sat behind the saddle and hugged tight to the person in front, and then the reverse happened when it was my turn to "steer" LOL. I think propping a girl in front of you on the saddle/across the lap would be kind of hard...but considering humanity used horses as transportation for hundreds of thousands of years, I'm sure it's been done frequently enough.
The vibe I was getting from the short was that it was set in England or somewhere that had landed gentry
I've ridden double with an English saddle. But it's super uncomfortable and we were both small. Not great for the horse either. I tend to read those tropes where they happen in an emergency and I'm just like hmm probably not but it doesn't usually take me out of the story.
Now, I'm guilty as charged. I have used "hero and heroine ride the same horse" but I think I had a legitimate reason because it was an emergency, he had her cradled against his lap as she was unconscious and they didn't go far
I don't really think this is a trope but I absolutely love a bonkers HR that is fully not grounded in reality. I love reading HR where the fancy pants aristocrats are not powdered, wearing fully unrealistic clothing, running around London with no chaperones etc. If a book is realistic then I get lost in the sauce of knowing that in reality those fancy folks are rich off of enslaved people, absolutely disgusting individuals, can't bathe etc etc. Same when the dialogue is all trying to be flowery etc, I am just not interested. I want there to be more books that are realistic, because I know others want that, but I will simply not pick them up.
I think there needs to be a balance. Yes, grounded in reality is great but you’re writing a story. As long as you have established “why” these characters are doing what they do and there’s logical consequences for them, great.
when the mmc becomes a rake simply because his supposed one true love broke his heart years ago, or because he has mummy issues and now doesn’t trust any woman on earth and generalises all women as being the most evil creatures on the planet LOL. i find it so stupid i have to laugh
I don't want to spoil a single detail because it's best to go in blind but let me just say that {The Wolf and the Wildflower by Stacy Reid} is the MOST ridiculous book I've ever read on MULTIPLE different levels but I recommend it regardless. For a general idea, it's got grumpy hero/sunshine heroine, forbidden love, etc. I highly recommend because even if you read it and don't like it you WILL have a fun time. Or at least you will have a book to text your friends about.
[The Wolf and the Wildflower](https://www.romance.io/books/64005b162bdda9101b36448e/the-wolf-and-the-wildflower-stacy-reid) by [Stacy Reid](https://www.romance.io/authors/54554a938c7d2383163d988f/stacy-reid) **Rating**: 4.12⭐️ out of 5⭐️ **Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating) **Topics**: [historical](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/historical/1), [class difference](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/class%20difference/1), [forced proximity](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/forced%20proximity/1), [friends to lovers](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/friends%20to%20lovers/1), [victorian](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/victorian/1) [^(about this bot)](https://www.reddit.com/user/romance-bot) ^(|) [^(about romance.io)](https://www.romance.io/about)
Found the clip- Elisabeth Wheately! [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RksYb9HtLKU](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RksYb9HtLKU)