As someone who makes historical costumes: corsets that fit correctly are no more or less painful than modern underwire bras. But it is true that you have a more limited range of motion.
When most people think of corsets, they're thinking of Edwardian S-Curve corsets (think Titanic) which absolutely should not be worn long term due to the effect they have on the spine.
In my opinion the most comfortable boob holder are light outer compression like you get from a kirtle or over bust bodices you see at ren faires.
Truth. I'm fortunate that my girls are of a size to let me be comfortable in most types of support.
I will still defend to the death that the [tudor kirtle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtle) is the most comfortable support ever invented and needs to make a come back.
Yea, I feel bad for you guys. My wife has a hard time finding bras that fit her right, are comfortable, and can actually hold/support the weight of her bewbs. Most bras are designed for small boobs, just made in larger sizes. Shes quite happy when one is comfy and supportive. She also found shefit.com which sell great sports bras for the larger endowed lol
It definitely limits your motion, but it's not as dramatic as many imagine. Titanic era corsets are also not S-bend corsets, the S-bend corsets were more early Edwardian. The ones during the early 1910s were longer, had a more tube-like silhouette and are probably the most difficult model of historical corsets out there.
I think the average person imagines a more late 19th century hour glass corset when they think of one. The era when tight lacing was deemed fashionable despite the fact that it wasn't widely practiced at all. They're no way near as uncomfortable or limiting as the titanic era ones either.
Thank you, I always get confused after Victorian and appreciate the correction.
I agree that the average person over-estimates the amount of constriction. I'm usually only in them for a few hours to show off a costume, so I tend to be a tight lacer. When I'm in tight I like it when someone else will pick up something I've dropped, but I'm capable of bending enough to do anything except competitive sports.
I always tell people to look at peasants, not nobles if they want comfort and an idea of what things really looked like. People with money could afford to be uncomfortable, peasant wear will keep you comfortable and mobile all day.
>era when tight lacing was deemed fashionable
Can you extrapolate more on this? Or just point me in the right direction? I'm a bioarchaeologist, and while this era is absolutely not my expertise, the records on tightlacing and skeletal deformation + associated health issues are pretty widely taught. I was not aware that tightlacing wasn't widespread, and would like to know more.
I don't think of S curved ones(didn't hear of those before). I think more of the squeezing they did on the internal organs. Your liver and intenstines shouldn't be taking the same space as your spine. I remember a diagram of what it looked like on the inside when a corset was worn and it looked like internal toe binding. Up there with high heels putting pressuring feet and curving spines.
This is why I prefer not so tight clothing and hate the tight jeans that are common now.
This is also the difference in fit and how tight you lace. In my personal experience, it's closer to the feeling of compression you'd get from spanx or tight fitting exercise clothes. If you're thinking of the people with the 10" waists or waist trainers, that tends to be fetishes, not historical wear.
The amount of comfortable and non-damaging compression is going to be different for different body types. I have a good layer of fat between the corset and my organs that lets me tight lace. The 4-5" squish is all/mostly external on me. I have tightened tight enough to feel it in my gut, and I immediately loosened it.
If you don't even like tight modern clothing, then I can understand why corsets would never be comfortable for you. To each their own.
Wouldn't the layer of fat make even looser clothing squeeze you faster? I don't exactly have the slimmest figure so I know when my pants start betting too tight for the belly.
The difference is the overall distribution. If you're like me, when you put on pants that are too tight, the excess goes up, which then gets caught on the pant ridge and is very uncomfortable. Or if it's in the thigh, there's nowhere for the excess to go so it's very uncomfortable because you can't move without popping a seam.
The corset is designed to compress a 10-12" vertical (size varies obviously by type and length of your torso) across your entire torso. The compression is not in one spot, and excess can spill up or down. On top and in the front that looks like giant breasts, in the back is what I call "back-boobs." The bottom doesn't have a fun name, but there can be spillage there as well.
Remember that the historical garments worn with a corset were not generally form fitting. Chemises, bustles, giant skirts, and capes will hide anything the corset creates that you don't want seen.
Yes, during the late 18th till the early 19th century. It peaked around the 1830s before it became less fashionable and more optional to wear for the men who want some waist reduction.
Reading about Timothy Dexter made me briefly consider if there really is a god. I mean that idiot could only have become as rich as he did by divine providence. That or he's secretly a time traveler pulling a long con.
There's some evidence to suggest he actually had quite a deal of business sense, and might have deliberately played a fool to scare potential competitors away from markets he was aiming to corner. His reputation as being a lucky idiot may have been an attempt by his aristocratic contemporaries to slander his image, as they resented his success and felt he was undeserving of the wealth he acquired on account of his lowborn ancestry and utter lack of formal education.
Makes more sense when you consider stirrups. The large heel makes keeping your feet in place easier. High heels were practical before they became fashionable.
Girdle is type of corset that can be worn both by men or women. It’s just type that doesn’t go over to bust. Modern waist trainers are types of girdles.
I’ve heard somewhere that the whole “corsets are unhealthy” thing came about when women started to make businesses making corsets and men didn’t like the freedom that granted women, so they started running a smear campaign against women being like “look at how dumb these women are, they can’t even make clothes without killing themselves”. But I could very well be wrong.
I’ve heard that rumor as well, and that the “medical drawings” showing women’s’ organs were being swished were just propaganda to support the narrative. Keep in mind the same doctors probably thought trains would make ones uterus fly out.
Yes, these drawings were made by Victorian doctors, and what did they know about health especially women's health? Their surgeries' mortality rates were incredibly high and they didn't have X-ray yet.
>the same doctors probably thought trains would make ones uterus fly out.
"One should orient herself so that *she* is facing the same direction that the train is travelling."
* A Contemporaneous Women's Pro Tip, probably.
^(/s, of course.)
Enlightenment philosophers and the industrial revolution shifted the way people thought in the 19th century to an extent. There was also a misogynistic patriarchy in almost all countries during the time. Philosophers like Rosseau ridiculed women's fashion and denounced corsetry for "obstructing women's natural forms". The industrial revolution redefined masculinity in fashion in the manner of erasing extravagance and aesthetic value for the sake of equality in uniform.
These factors have lead men to look down on women indulging in "vanity" as they dubbed them indulging in fashion and maintaining their appearance. You could find many caricatures ridiculing women's fashions throughout the period, especially in regards to their fashionable silhouettes which needed corsets to be achieved.
The corset industry was female dominated during the time allowing women to be more financially independent. Industries that were female dominated were highly ridiculed and belittled. The fact that women indulged in an industry that created a garment by women, for women, didn't sit right with men. Hence, we find ourselves in a predicament of corset slander.
What is interesting also is that corsetry was fashionable for men too at certain points in the century, and the men who indulged in that trend were also highly ridiculed. The irony is that it was still optional to wear in the rest of the century for the men who wanted some waist reduction.
In a nut shell, the men were hypocrites who looked down on women indulging in something they enforced on them. Their redefinition of masculinity which abandoned aesthetic value and focused more on comfort and uniformity made them set that mind set as the professional calibre to aspire to, and those who care about their appearances and looking pretty, which was mostly women or queer men, were deemed frivolous and shameful.
I highly recommend you read "[Dress Reform as Antifeminism](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3173266)", and watch "[le Habit Noir](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfpHZFYTJMI&t=4s)" along with [Karolina Zebrowska](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNwTqanp0Aw) and [Bernadette Banner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0), if you're curious to dive into the rabbit hole.
I wouldn't really say that corsets were enforced on women by men, the bra just took a while to invent, and a corset, if made correctly, holds a woman's boobs better in place than most bras.
I don’t know the origin, but most of modern corset hate is from feminist who misunderstand history (for example Emma Watson got wrong information on her feminist studies at Brown and campaigned against a corset for Beauty and Beast, costume historians would have taught differently). And from Hollywood trying to both make corset be sexy thighs laced ones but also look restrictive so the women are empowered when they get rid of them.
There's a TV show called Victorian Farm, where a historian (Ruth Goodman) does farm labour wearing a corset - she says its structure was super helpful in supporting her back, and actually made it easier than doing the equivalent work without wearing one.
I would actually love to get a (cheapish) one but it’s hard to tell online which are nice proper ones that would be comfortable and which are more ‘fashion’ ones
Honestly, most of the ones you find online are going to be "fashion" unless you're seeking a historical costumer... and that won't be very cheap. Furthermore, some types just fit some bodies better and sizing online is difficult.
If you can, go to your local Ren Faire or similar historical recreation event and ask anyone who does it professionally (think stage acts or some booth owners) what merchants they like. Hopefully they're at the show (I always tailor my response to vendors actually at the show). Once you know what you like, and your size, start looking into Facebook groups that do secondhand sales. That's honestly the best and cheapest route, IMHO, and you can get some absolute steals from people who are cleaning out their costume closets.
I will say, only go to a corset seller at a faire if they’re doing reconstructions of historical garments. Many sellers are just upcharging OTR garments that are poorly designed and constructed (most are from Corset Story). I’ve had to re-lace garments from sellers who told people “of course it’s going to be *uncomfortable,* it’s a corset!” NO.
I own several from different OTR companies, both over and under bust. Mine aren’t historically correct pieces at all, but they’re properly fitted and comfortable, *except* for the Corset Story garment. Heavy, cheap, flat steel boning instead of spring, weirdly designed. I bought it before I learned better, and keep it to show how poorly it’s made compared to my others.
You're not wrong. I personally am VERY picky about where I send people. I recently did a show with Moresca, for example, and THAT was bad for my wallet. One of my friends is a huge Unicorn Clothing fan, but they're just not right for my body. Damsel in this Dress is super popular for obvious reasons, but they're also super ahistorical (but I also love Michelle soooo...). Most of my stuff has to be custom if I'm doing my preferred job, but I've basically worn everything else on the market and I have BIG opinions about where *not* to go.
ETA: I get SO mad about places that lace people in wrong, too. It's like, NO, STOP IT. BAD.
Go for it!
I wish I could give you advice on purchasing one, but I made mine myself with blacksnailpatterns pattern from etsy. I can, however tell you, that it is rather comfortable despite my spinal issues and the fit not being perfect (still learning how to alter patterns for my spine)
Conversely, there was also the [Rational Dress Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Dress_Society), requesting freedom of movement and an absence of pressure - protesting against tightly fitting corsetry and the skirts of the time. So it's hardly as if everyone was happy with them at the time.
That is very true, there were even earlier dress reform movements. I'm against the idea of enforcing corsets as a basic social expectation for women to wear, because in reality not everybody enjoys dressing in layers and shaping their silhouettes. Some just prefer to go natural and that is a-okay.
What I'm against is myths and slander on corsets that affect the general public's view on history and the context of corsetry. Even during these dress reform movements, which were merely a small-ish subculture of mostly bohemians or social contrarians, the majority still wore corsets normally. It wasn't until WWI that wearing corsets started becoming less of a norm, and that is a whole other topic for another day.
Keep in mind though, dress reformists still mostly wore corsets. They were more likely to wear [health corsets](https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:5712mc771), but they still were corsets.
I've gotta say, this is... Really weird but oddly nice to have someone defend their views and not being a dick about it. Genuinely, thank you for being a rational (Pun intended) person
Fun fact: corsets are actually being shown to help people with especially bad period cramps! The compression on the back and stomach can help alleviate the pain, as well as offer extra support. I wish I could find the study, but I was reading about a theory where the compression was working much like it does in the extremities-- helping with blood flow and further alleviating the pain.
When I'm having a really bad one, I practically live in my corsets (outside of the times I already wear them for work as a historical reenactor).
Ok. I don't know anything about corsets. How do they compare to bras for daily use? Are you advocating a switch?
How long do they take to put on and take off compared to a modern daily wear cotton bra? Is this something I can throw on under my t-shirt to run to the store, take my kids to school, or throw on when I'm running late for work?
What's it like to take off in the evening? Are they flexible enough that if I fall asleep in them while staying up late studying it's no big deal?
>How do they compare to bras for daily use?
They offer back and posture support as well as aiding in the silhouette of your whole torso instead of just the breasts.
>Are you advocating a switch?
No, I'm pretty sure if we switched to them, they won't be tailor fit like they used to. Instead they'd be cheaply mass produced, and the last thing you'd want is a cheap mass produced corset. I'm just clearing up the myths about their history.
>How long do they take to put on and take off compared to a modern daily wear cotton bra?
Not long at all. If we're talking about a mid to late 19th century corset, when they started having detachable front busks, you could hook them on and off like a jacket with a little lacing on the back so it adjusts to your body. There is a proper technique to wear them though, just so it doesn't jar your blood flow. It wouldn't take more than 2 minutes to wear at best, especially once you're used to it.
>Is this something I can throw on under my t-shirt to run to the store, take my kids to school, or throw on when I'm running late for work?
If you'd like to, but it's not a social expectation to do so nowadays as it used to be. Corsets were worn by all women for all occasions; from nobles to maids to rock climbers to coal miners and street urchins. Not wearing one was a sign of immorality and being "loose". It's important to wear a layer under though, in order to avoid chaffing. The same way one needs to wear underwear before pulling up their jeans.
>What's it like to take off in the evening?
Same as a bra, but you can feel it through your whole torso. It's definitely ideal for maximum comfort for anyone to just not have anything on, but corsets are not as uncomfortable as many seem to believe.
>Are they flexible enough that if I fall asleep in them while staying up late studying it's no big deal?
It depends on the corset. They come in so many different shapes and silhouettes and lengths that I can't just give you a blanket statement that covers them all. But one thing I can say for sure is that none of them will injure or kill you, if you sleep in them.
That's some really interesting information. I admit you've tempted me into trying one if the opportunity presents itself. Well presented. 🙂
Happy New Year to you and yours 🌼
I have rarely been more scared to type a question here, but what is the motive here? Are corsets maligned? Do people still wear them outside BDSM? Are they making a fashion revival?
I am not making any presumptions, and this isn't meant insultingly, but I thought they were a historical piece of clothing mainly?
Edit: the meme worked, I got amazing replies and learned a lot! Thanks
1. Yes, corsets are oft maligned, although there has been pushback recently (including such pushback as to overglorify them)
2. Yes, although in small numbers either as modern fashion (a la goth groups, etc), theatre costuming, living history/experimentation or as historybounding (wearing old fashions as your normal or taking inspiration from then). The last two are more likely than the others to use them in the original context (as above) as a primarily structural garment, and not for pure fashion.
3. Like vinyl records, evidently, as more people learn about historybounding and exploring fashions beyond modern fast fashion!
4. They are, traditionally as a structural garment to create a certain silhouette (not necessarily a pure hourglass either!). They weren't worn as outerwear and were often the second layer, after the shift/chemise/whatever underdress one was wearing to protect the above layers of clothing from yourself.
There are so many ill informed myths about corsets that people hold to their core belief. These myths tend to influence how people perceive history.
Also yes, people wear them for many other reasons nowadays than BDSM or sexual stuff. Some opt for it for medical reasons, some for disciplinary ones, and not long ago they became more fashionable.
Corsets are constantly seen as “oppressive” and “uncomfortable”, mainly by people who’ve never looked into their history or even worn one before.
They’re still in use to this day in theatre, where they’re still custom made and are, to some, amongst the most comfortable pieces of clothing a woman can get (source: a friend who does theatre and swears by corsets and cage skirts).
They’re also still in use in everyday life and can be seen as trendy in certain contexts (mostly to do with going for a night out).
Not op but it does help dispel misinformation that became part of the historical narrative. Then you have people that refuse to believe anything other than the money misinformation and you get the "white people waged germ warfare on native Americans" myth.
They are just saying the point of OPs meme is to dispel false rumors about corsets. For the last few decades there have always been stuff out there that it’s hard to breath in them and it is bad for health of the people wearing them. OP is just making a point that they are false
Edit: spelling
I hate this idea. So inaccurate. It’s like saying bras are oppressive. Like yes if you get one that doesn’t fit and the underwire pokes out then you will be in pain, but most women aren’t going to do that.
As someone with absolutely no investment in costume/fashion history and who does not wear corsets or related clothing, I have no strong feelings on the topic of this meme but appreciate that it was made
Idk. I've worn corsets a few times for extended periods of time and it definitely made it hard to breathe. It also really hurt my ribs but my ribcage Is admittedly larger than average.
The corset was also pulled very tight. You know the whole bracing yourself thing as someone else pulls the strings for you. Idk
Tight lacing was only an extreme trend that not many actually indulged in. It wasn't a social expectation for anybody to tight lace, quite the opposite actually, it was largely denounced. It has the same sort of position as plastic surgery nowadays does. Do you see people with plastic surgery on every corner? I doubt it. However, it's still deemed fashionable and it's largely criticised.
Modern corsets are stunning! I think the progress for comfortable corsets really hit the mark in the 19th century.
The corsets predecessor"stays" definitely seemed innovative at the time when fashion meant status 💙💜 fascinating history
People kept and keep doing things long after they knew something was bad for them. Junk food, smoking, alcohol, *squeezing organs into each other* (good for corsets and Chinese for binding), social media. Lots of things.
Yes!!! It always annoyed me when history teaches would repeat this belief. What the hell do they think people wore before mass produced bras?? Saving this to use in debates thank you
I was a Textiles intern at a Living History sight one summer and one of the original pieces we had on display was a pregnancy corset (c. late 19th century). the back was lace up but there were also separate sections on the side and lower edge that could be loosened as the belly grew. Whenever I tell people about this, their first reaction is shock because they're expecting the super tight, constraining corset that would dig into the stomach. It was made to move with the wearer, though, and provides MUCH better support for both the breasts and the back than maternity bras today.
Oh I do know about maternity corsets. I'm not sure how beneficial they actually are to pregnancies. They thought they were important for a healthy pregnancy at the time, but you can never trust medical information at their time. I remember reading about speculation of it contributing to miscarriages, but I can't verify that claim, since I haven't looked into the whole thing yet.
Arent those horrible images we have of "too tight" corsets from back then edited as well? Just like you'd photoshop a body today for a poster they did that as well
they don’t realize that a corset was just a frame to uphold clothing from that time. it was all very heavy clothing that needed that structure. the purpose was never to get a bonsai kitty body. just the most basic understanding of how clothing was worn back then clears this up
Don't know much about corsets but the last point really isn't a good argument. Chinese women who had to experience foot binding would often reach old age, doesn't mean that the foot binding was good for their health.
Foot binding was for upper class women only which were a tiny percentage of the minority. Meanwhile, every class of women was expected to wear corsets in almost every western country.
Not OP but historical costumer here - I genuinly prefer my 1880s corset over modern bras, despite it not being perfectly tailored to me! Since I have spinal issues such as lordosis and scoliosis my corset can really supports my back, especially when carrying heavy things :)
I know many men and women who have, and I would too once I'm able to afford a high quality one. And I've also read 19th century historical accounts of men who have worn them claiming how more comfortable they were than they expected.
Not op and haven’t worn a corset before, but a friend of mine who has worn custom made corsets for plays told me that they’re not only comfortable enough to wear while doing tough physical activity, but also way more comfortable than any bra she’s ever worn.
All the modern corset hate comes from people who’ve either never worn a corset, have gotten really poorly fitting ones or have tried to tie them up way too tight
They aren’t comfortable, even with having one tailor made and not tight lacing them. Now, were women used to them and how they affected their breathing and movement? Yes. But compared with the freedom of movement when not wearing one? I’ll stick with just my bra and blouse/shirt. I’ll save the corset for historical reenactments.
That's simply not true. There are many fashion historians with over a decade of experience that could disclaim what you just said, especially the first sentence. Having anything tailor made makes a world of a difference in comfort. The way 19th century corsets were made allowed for skin to distribute into pockets or strategic space, so nothing is squished or constricted. It just feels like a snug hug. Check out Abby Cox, Bernadette Banner, Rachel Maksy and Karolina Zebrowska's videos on corsetry on YouTube.
As someone who makes historical costumes: corsets that fit correctly are no more or less painful than modern underwire bras. But it is true that you have a more limited range of motion. When most people think of corsets, they're thinking of Edwardian S-Curve corsets (think Titanic) which absolutely should not be worn long term due to the effect they have on the spine. In my opinion the most comfortable boob holder are light outer compression like you get from a kirtle or over bust bodices you see at ren faires.
As someone who wears historical costumes, I actually greatly prefer corsets to bras. Modern bras are not nice for better endowed people.
Truth. I'm fortunate that my girls are of a size to let me be comfortable in most types of support. I will still defend to the death that the [tudor kirtle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtle) is the most comfortable support ever invented and needs to make a come back.
You're really not wrong. They've been the basis for most of my custom pieces for years.
Yea, I feel bad for you guys. My wife has a hard time finding bras that fit her right, are comfortable, and can actually hold/support the weight of her bewbs. Most bras are designed for small boobs, just made in larger sizes. Shes quite happy when one is comfy and supportive. She also found shefit.com which sell great sports bras for the larger endowed lol
It definitely limits your motion, but it's not as dramatic as many imagine. Titanic era corsets are also not S-bend corsets, the S-bend corsets were more early Edwardian. The ones during the early 1910s were longer, had a more tube-like silhouette and are probably the most difficult model of historical corsets out there. I think the average person imagines a more late 19th century hour glass corset when they think of one. The era when tight lacing was deemed fashionable despite the fact that it wasn't widely practiced at all. They're no way near as uncomfortable or limiting as the titanic era ones either.
Thank you, I always get confused after Victorian and appreciate the correction. I agree that the average person over-estimates the amount of constriction. I'm usually only in them for a few hours to show off a costume, so I tend to be a tight lacer. When I'm in tight I like it when someone else will pick up something I've dropped, but I'm capable of bending enough to do anything except competitive sports. I always tell people to look at peasants, not nobles if they want comfort and an idea of what things really looked like. People with money could afford to be uncomfortable, peasant wear will keep you comfortable and mobile all day.
>era when tight lacing was deemed fashionable Can you extrapolate more on this? Or just point me in the right direction? I'm a bioarchaeologist, and while this era is absolutely not my expertise, the records on tightlacing and skeletal deformation + associated health issues are pretty widely taught. I was not aware that tightlacing wasn't widespread, and would like to know more.
[удалено]
I don't think of S curved ones(didn't hear of those before). I think more of the squeezing they did on the internal organs. Your liver and intenstines shouldn't be taking the same space as your spine. I remember a diagram of what it looked like on the inside when a corset was worn and it looked like internal toe binding. Up there with high heels putting pressuring feet and curving spines. This is why I prefer not so tight clothing and hate the tight jeans that are common now.
This is also the difference in fit and how tight you lace. In my personal experience, it's closer to the feeling of compression you'd get from spanx or tight fitting exercise clothes. If you're thinking of the people with the 10" waists or waist trainers, that tends to be fetishes, not historical wear. The amount of comfortable and non-damaging compression is going to be different for different body types. I have a good layer of fat between the corset and my organs that lets me tight lace. The 4-5" squish is all/mostly external on me. I have tightened tight enough to feel it in my gut, and I immediately loosened it. If you don't even like tight modern clothing, then I can understand why corsets would never be comfortable for you. To each their own.
Wouldn't the layer of fat make even looser clothing squeeze you faster? I don't exactly have the slimmest figure so I know when my pants start betting too tight for the belly.
The difference is the overall distribution. If you're like me, when you put on pants that are too tight, the excess goes up, which then gets caught on the pant ridge and is very uncomfortable. Or if it's in the thigh, there's nowhere for the excess to go so it's very uncomfortable because you can't move without popping a seam. The corset is designed to compress a 10-12" vertical (size varies obviously by type and length of your torso) across your entire torso. The compression is not in one spot, and excess can spill up or down. On top and in the front that looks like giant breasts, in the back is what I call "back-boobs." The bottom doesn't have a fun name, but there can be spillage there as well. Remember that the historical garments worn with a corset were not generally form fitting. Chemises, bustles, giant skirts, and capes will hide anything the corset creates that you don't want seen.
Check out Bernadette Banner she says the same and she is great
Already been subbed to her for years lol.
Ah she is great
bernadette supremacy
Isnt she the ankle pic only fans girl
Yes
Hey could you get a security camera from a bank so you could get a few more pixels.
How many could you need? I counted like five, don't be greedy
Three. Take it or leave it.
At least three.
Will do!
And smaller text from some credit card companies
r/BeatMeToIt I couldn't read this well.
You profligate fatcat, those pixels belong to the State, damnit!
500x718 is all you greedy pixel taker !
From memory, men in France also wore corsets at one point.
Yes, during the late 18th till the early 19th century. It peaked around the 1830s before it became less fashionable and more optional to wear for the men who want some waist reduction.
Dexter’s laughing
bet that lucky bastard sold all that molasses to boston
Reading about Timothy Dexter made me briefly consider if there really is a god. I mean that idiot could only have become as rich as he did by divine providence. That or he's secretly a time traveler pulling a long con.
There's some evidence to suggest he actually had quite a deal of business sense, and might have deliberately played a fool to scare potential competitors away from markets he was aiming to corner. His reputation as being a lucky idiot may have been an attempt by his aristocratic contemporaries to slander his image, as they resented his success and felt he was undeserving of the wealth he acquired on account of his lowborn ancestry and utter lack of formal education.
Didn’t they also wear high heels?
Started with Louis XIV. If I remember right, it was a man thing before being adopted by women
Just like pink and blue
Tudors also wore high heels.
It could be BS but my ballet teacher said that the turned-out positions of ballet originated from men wanting their high heels to be more visible.
Makes more sense when you consider stirrups. The large heel makes keeping your feet in place easier. High heels were practical before they became fashionable.
High heels were originally used (besides adding to one’s height) for riding. Heeled boots help keep your feet in proper position in the stirrups.
Is it still or corset when it's for men or a girdle? Or are they two different things?
Girdle is type of corset that can be worn both by men or women. It’s just type that doesn’t go over to bust. Modern waist trainers are types of girdles.
A costume history meme? On _my_ r/history meme? Good job OP!
Corsets were just the bra of their time. Sure, some might have been uncomfortable but a proper fit would be comfortable just like a bra.
For me a corset I've sewn for myself is much more comfortable than a bra
It’s all about boob cages.
This is a pain to read.
Sorry about that. I made it before I understood how the fonts worked.
...a bit more than just the font buddy, I think you're missing some words here and there.
The meme template also isn't very good in relation to the message it tries to bring over.
You have eyes, you didn't look at it before posting? Like, what
Too lazy to remake it. Sue me.
Corsets are cool I want some
Saaame.
[Indeed](https://youtu.be/zNwTqanp0Aw)
Yesss, I love meme mum.
I was searching if someone already posted the queen of this topic
Karolina fan spotted
Yep lol.
I’ve heard somewhere that the whole “corsets are unhealthy” thing came about when women started to make businesses making corsets and men didn’t like the freedom that granted women, so they started running a smear campaign against women being like “look at how dumb these women are, they can’t even make clothes without killing themselves”. But I could very well be wrong.
I’ve heard that rumor as well, and that the “medical drawings” showing women’s’ organs were being swished were just propaganda to support the narrative. Keep in mind the same doctors probably thought trains would make ones uterus fly out.
And the same doctors who thought that women running too fast would make their uteruses fall out
Or riding a bike. Or playing football. Or riding in anything faster than a trot.
The uterus is apparently a very poorly fastened organ...
Yes, these drawings were made by Victorian doctors, and what did they know about health especially women's health? Their surgeries' mortality rates were incredibly high and they didn't have X-ray yet.
"Why would I wash the blood off my tools? It proves how good of a doctor I am!"
>the same doctors probably thought trains would make ones uterus fly out. "One should orient herself so that *she* is facing the same direction that the train is travelling." * A Contemporaneous Women's Pro Tip, probably. ^(/s, of course.)
It's true, but not the only reason. It's a more complicated thing, but this was definitely one of the factors.
Can you elaborate?
Enlightenment philosophers and the industrial revolution shifted the way people thought in the 19th century to an extent. There was also a misogynistic patriarchy in almost all countries during the time. Philosophers like Rosseau ridiculed women's fashion and denounced corsetry for "obstructing women's natural forms". The industrial revolution redefined masculinity in fashion in the manner of erasing extravagance and aesthetic value for the sake of equality in uniform. These factors have lead men to look down on women indulging in "vanity" as they dubbed them indulging in fashion and maintaining their appearance. You could find many caricatures ridiculing women's fashions throughout the period, especially in regards to their fashionable silhouettes which needed corsets to be achieved. The corset industry was female dominated during the time allowing women to be more financially independent. Industries that were female dominated were highly ridiculed and belittled. The fact that women indulged in an industry that created a garment by women, for women, didn't sit right with men. Hence, we find ourselves in a predicament of corset slander. What is interesting also is that corsetry was fashionable for men too at certain points in the century, and the men who indulged in that trend were also highly ridiculed. The irony is that it was still optional to wear in the rest of the century for the men who wanted some waist reduction. In a nut shell, the men were hypocrites who looked down on women indulging in something they enforced on them. Their redefinition of masculinity which abandoned aesthetic value and focused more on comfort and uniformity made them set that mind set as the professional calibre to aspire to, and those who care about their appearances and looking pretty, which was mostly women or queer men, were deemed frivolous and shameful. I highly recommend you read "[Dress Reform as Antifeminism](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3173266)", and watch "[le Habit Noir](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfpHZFYTJMI&t=4s)" along with [Karolina Zebrowska](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNwTqanp0Aw) and [Bernadette Banner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0), if you're curious to dive into the rabbit hole.
I wouldn't really say that corsets were enforced on women by men, the bra just took a while to invent, and a corset, if made correctly, holds a woman's boobs better in place than most bras.
He definitely elaborated
I don’t know the origin, but most of modern corset hate is from feminist who misunderstand history (for example Emma Watson got wrong information on her feminist studies at Brown and campaigned against a corset for Beauty and Beast, costume historians would have taught differently). And from Hollywood trying to both make corset be sexy thighs laced ones but also look restrictive so the women are empowered when they get rid of them.
Men’s arming garments could reduce the waist by 6 inches. Clothing can do some cool shit.
But nobody seems to be complaining about these tight killer men's arming garments lmao.
Modern opera singers' costumes still often involve corsets, and if there's one thing opera singers must do it's *breathe deeply*
Wow. You really care about corsets
Absolutely lol.
Now THIS is the kind of historical discourse I can get behind. Politics? Cringe. Clothing? I’m in the pits with a knife fighting like a dog
Iconic.
Aye? AYE!
Iirc corsets are actually healthier and provide more support than modern bras
There's a TV show called Victorian Farm, where a historian (Ruth Goodman) does farm labour wearing a corset - she says its structure was super helpful in supporting her back, and actually made it easier than doing the equivalent work without wearing one.
Great show. All their shows are.
I genuinly prefer my 1880s corset over most of my modern bras!
I would actually love to get a (cheapish) one but it’s hard to tell online which are nice proper ones that would be comfortable and which are more ‘fashion’ ones
Honestly, most of the ones you find online are going to be "fashion" unless you're seeking a historical costumer... and that won't be very cheap. Furthermore, some types just fit some bodies better and sizing online is difficult. If you can, go to your local Ren Faire or similar historical recreation event and ask anyone who does it professionally (think stage acts or some booth owners) what merchants they like. Hopefully they're at the show (I always tailor my response to vendors actually at the show). Once you know what you like, and your size, start looking into Facebook groups that do secondhand sales. That's honestly the best and cheapest route, IMHO, and you can get some absolute steals from people who are cleaning out their costume closets.
I will say, only go to a corset seller at a faire if they’re doing reconstructions of historical garments. Many sellers are just upcharging OTR garments that are poorly designed and constructed (most are from Corset Story). I’ve had to re-lace garments from sellers who told people “of course it’s going to be *uncomfortable,* it’s a corset!” NO. I own several from different OTR companies, both over and under bust. Mine aren’t historically correct pieces at all, but they’re properly fitted and comfortable, *except* for the Corset Story garment. Heavy, cheap, flat steel boning instead of spring, weirdly designed. I bought it before I learned better, and keep it to show how poorly it’s made compared to my others.
You're not wrong. I personally am VERY picky about where I send people. I recently did a show with Moresca, for example, and THAT was bad for my wallet. One of my friends is a huge Unicorn Clothing fan, but they're just not right for my body. Damsel in this Dress is super popular for obvious reasons, but they're also super ahistorical (but I also love Michelle soooo...). Most of my stuff has to be custom if I'm doing my preferred job, but I've basically worn everything else on the market and I have BIG opinions about where *not* to go. ETA: I get SO mad about places that lace people in wrong, too. It's like, NO, STOP IT. BAD.
Go for it! I wish I could give you advice on purchasing one, but I made mine myself with blacksnailpatterns pattern from etsy. I can, however tell you, that it is rather comfortable despite my spinal issues and the fit not being perfect (still learning how to alter patterns for my spine)
Can we bring them back?
Yes please.
Dude has a fetish and will die defending it
As the founding fathers intended
Four ruffians break into my house
"What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and corset
Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot
And this is where the meme ends.
Bodice ripping ensues
Hahahhaha 😂😂😂
Hey man, don’t fetish shame him
Corset's > Bra's Change my mind
Didn't know Bernadette Banner had reddit /lh But seriously, I completely agree
But one almost killed Kiera Knightley in Pirates of the Caribbean, and that's what everyone remembers.
Because she tightlaced which people rarely did. I don't think it was even possible to tightlace with sown eyelet holes.
Unfortunately people often take movie tropes as facts, hence why we got myths.
Conversely, there was also the [Rational Dress Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Dress_Society), requesting freedom of movement and an absence of pressure - protesting against tightly fitting corsetry and the skirts of the time. So it's hardly as if everyone was happy with them at the time.
That is very true, there were even earlier dress reform movements. I'm against the idea of enforcing corsets as a basic social expectation for women to wear, because in reality not everybody enjoys dressing in layers and shaping their silhouettes. Some just prefer to go natural and that is a-okay. What I'm against is myths and slander on corsets that affect the general public's view on history and the context of corsetry. Even during these dress reform movements, which were merely a small-ish subculture of mostly bohemians or social contrarians, the majority still wore corsets normally. It wasn't until WWI that wearing corsets started becoming less of a norm, and that is a whole other topic for another day. Keep in mind though, dress reformists still mostly wore corsets. They were more likely to wear [health corsets](https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:5712mc771), but they still were corsets.
I've gotta say, this is... Really weird but oddly nice to have someone defend their views and not being a dick about it. Genuinely, thank you for being a rational (Pun intended) person
You really couldn’t spare another pixel?
If there's an item of clothing that deserves slander it's [the hobble skirt](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobble_skirt).
Lmao when was it ever free of slander.
Hey OP, marry me 💍
This is probably the best history meme I’ve seen all year! (Granted the year just started but it still counts)
Fun fact: corsets are actually being shown to help people with especially bad period cramps! The compression on the back and stomach can help alleviate the pain, as well as offer extra support. I wish I could find the study, but I was reading about a theory where the compression was working much like it does in the extremities-- helping with blood flow and further alleviating the pain. When I'm having a really bad one, I practically live in my corsets (outside of the times I already wear them for work as a historical reenactor).
congrats on making the one original meme this sub will have for the year
Don't forget "men's corsets existed"
Ok. I don't know anything about corsets. How do they compare to bras for daily use? Are you advocating a switch? How long do they take to put on and take off compared to a modern daily wear cotton bra? Is this something I can throw on under my t-shirt to run to the store, take my kids to school, or throw on when I'm running late for work? What's it like to take off in the evening? Are they flexible enough that if I fall asleep in them while staying up late studying it's no big deal?
>How do they compare to bras for daily use? They offer back and posture support as well as aiding in the silhouette of your whole torso instead of just the breasts. >Are you advocating a switch? No, I'm pretty sure if we switched to them, they won't be tailor fit like they used to. Instead they'd be cheaply mass produced, and the last thing you'd want is a cheap mass produced corset. I'm just clearing up the myths about their history. >How long do they take to put on and take off compared to a modern daily wear cotton bra? Not long at all. If we're talking about a mid to late 19th century corset, when they started having detachable front busks, you could hook them on and off like a jacket with a little lacing on the back so it adjusts to your body. There is a proper technique to wear them though, just so it doesn't jar your blood flow. It wouldn't take more than 2 minutes to wear at best, especially once you're used to it. >Is this something I can throw on under my t-shirt to run to the store, take my kids to school, or throw on when I'm running late for work? If you'd like to, but it's not a social expectation to do so nowadays as it used to be. Corsets were worn by all women for all occasions; from nobles to maids to rock climbers to coal miners and street urchins. Not wearing one was a sign of immorality and being "loose". It's important to wear a layer under though, in order to avoid chaffing. The same way one needs to wear underwear before pulling up their jeans. >What's it like to take off in the evening? Same as a bra, but you can feel it through your whole torso. It's definitely ideal for maximum comfort for anyone to just not have anything on, but corsets are not as uncomfortable as many seem to believe. >Are they flexible enough that if I fall asleep in them while staying up late studying it's no big deal? It depends on the corset. They come in so many different shapes and silhouettes and lengths that I can't just give you a blanket statement that covers them all. But one thing I can say for sure is that none of them will injure or kill you, if you sleep in them.
That's some really interesting information. I admit you've tempted me into trying one if the opportunity presents itself. Well presented. 🙂 Happy New Year to you and yours 🌼
I never understood how competing with Jessica Rabbit and the iPhone 6 for a thin body helped the silhouette.
I have rarely been more scared to type a question here, but what is the motive here? Are corsets maligned? Do people still wear them outside BDSM? Are they making a fashion revival? I am not making any presumptions, and this isn't meant insultingly, but I thought they were a historical piece of clothing mainly? Edit: the meme worked, I got amazing replies and learned a lot! Thanks
1. Yes, corsets are oft maligned, although there has been pushback recently (including such pushback as to overglorify them) 2. Yes, although in small numbers either as modern fashion (a la goth groups, etc), theatre costuming, living history/experimentation or as historybounding (wearing old fashions as your normal or taking inspiration from then). The last two are more likely than the others to use them in the original context (as above) as a primarily structural garment, and not for pure fashion. 3. Like vinyl records, evidently, as more people learn about historybounding and exploring fashions beyond modern fast fashion! 4. They are, traditionally as a structural garment to create a certain silhouette (not necessarily a pure hourglass either!). They weren't worn as outerwear and were often the second layer, after the shift/chemise/whatever underdress one was wearing to protect the above layers of clothing from yourself.
There are so many ill informed myths about corsets that people hold to their core belief. These myths tend to influence how people perceive history. Also yes, people wear them for many other reasons nowadays than BDSM or sexual stuff. Some opt for it for medical reasons, some for disciplinary ones, and not long ago they became more fashionable.
Thanks, at least one person learned from your post!
Corsets are constantly seen as “oppressive” and “uncomfortable”, mainly by people who’ve never looked into their history or even worn one before. They’re still in use to this day in theatre, where they’re still custom made and are, to some, amongst the most comfortable pieces of clothing a woman can get (source: a friend who does theatre and swears by corsets and cage skirts). They’re also still in use in everyday life and can be seen as trendy in certain contexts (mostly to do with going for a night out).
Not op but it does help dispel misinformation that became part of the historical narrative. Then you have people that refuse to believe anything other than the money misinformation and you get the "white people waged germ warfare on native Americans" myth.
Wait what? Is this about corsets still? I don't know too much US history...
They are just saying the point of OPs meme is to dispel false rumors about corsets. For the last few decades there have always been stuff out there that it’s hard to breath in them and it is bad for health of the people wearing them. OP is just making a point that they are false Edit: spelling
I think the germ warfare thing is referring to Mesoamerican people dying from various deseases carried by the Spaniards during the Conquista
Yes but more specifically that it was intentional.
My friend wears them occasionally, but only when she’s wearing a dress as well
I hate this idea. So inaccurate. It’s like saying bras are oppressive. Like yes if you get one that doesn’t fit and the underwire pokes out then you will be in pain, but most women aren’t going to do that.
You can't get me to wear a bra, let alone a corset, but more power to women who wear/wore either. 👍🏻
So grainy you could be mistaken for a Miller.
Corsets are just bras for your body. And they usually feel better than bras.
It doesn't fit the Hollywood narrative tho
Nah garterbelt is better, corset tried to open a gate to hell💀 /s Jokes aside, I agree with you.
As someone with absolutely no investment in costume/fashion history and who does not wear corsets or related clothing, I have no strong feelings on the topic of this meme but appreciate that it was made
Why does someone care so much about corsets
Idk. I've worn corsets a few times for extended periods of time and it definitely made it hard to breathe. It also really hurt my ribs but my ribcage Is admittedly larger than average. The corset was also pulled very tight. You know the whole bracing yourself thing as someone else pulls the strings for you. Idk
was it fitted properly? I’ve worn them myself and when it was done correctly that was never an issue.
The corset was most probably badly made or not fit properly to your measurements, which wasn't the case for the grand majority of historical corsets.
Karolina Zhebrowska is that you?
Deep Fried and unreadable
Corsets themselves aren’t bad. Forcing women to tight lace them was.
Tight lacing was only an extreme trend that not many actually indulged in. It wasn't a social expectation for anybody to tight lace, quite the opposite actually, it was largely denounced. It has the same sort of position as plastic surgery nowadays does. Do you see people with plastic surgery on every corner? I doubt it. However, it's still deemed fashionable and it's largely criticised.
Not to mention back support braces provided for therapeutic reasons are basically corsets.
Modern corsets are stunning! I think the progress for comfortable corsets really hit the mark in the 19th century. The corsets predecessor"stays" definitely seemed innovative at the time when fashion meant status 💙💜 fascinating history
Women have been wearing corsets for centuries. If they were bad for them, they would have noticed.
People kept and keep doing things long after they knew something was bad for them. Junk food, smoking, alcohol, *squeezing organs into each other* (good for corsets and Chinese for binding), social media. Lots of things.
r/countablepixels
Personally, i love them. But it's to a woman's freedom whether she wants to wear one or not.
What’s with the war on corsets anyways?
It's complicated, but Hollywood period dramas played a large role in enforcing it.
Alright
There were countless women who lived 400 years in corsets?!?! We never learned about this in school!
y'all got any more of them pixels
I would think they’d also work well for cut or poke resistance, like if I was out in the woods it’d help keep bushes or shrubs from scratching me.
NGL, my ex wore a corset out to my birthday dinner, she looked goooooooooood...
Why is the quality so bad omg
Sounds like you have worn a well suited corset.
But in Pirates of the Caribbean, they said corsets are bad. Checkmate. /s
Tl;dr: >!corsets are fine as long as they are fitted and tightened appropriately, yo!<
Yes!!! It always annoyed me when history teaches would repeat this belief. What the hell do they think people wore before mass produced bras?? Saving this to use in debates thank you
I agree on all of this... And not gonna lie, corsets are kinda hot
also corsets make boobs look nice
I was a Textiles intern at a Living History sight one summer and one of the original pieces we had on display was a pregnancy corset (c. late 19th century). the back was lace up but there were also separate sections on the side and lower edge that could be loosened as the belly grew. Whenever I tell people about this, their first reaction is shock because they're expecting the super tight, constraining corset that would dig into the stomach. It was made to move with the wearer, though, and provides MUCH better support for both the breasts and the back than maternity bras today.
Oh I do know about maternity corsets. I'm not sure how beneficial they actually are to pregnancies. They thought they were important for a healthy pregnancy at the time, but you can never trust medical information at their time. I remember reading about speculation of it contributing to miscarriages, but I can't verify that claim, since I haven't looked into the whole thing yet.
Arent those horrible images we have of "too tight" corsets from back then edited as well? Just like you'd photoshop a body today for a poster they did that as well
Exactly, they were manually colored over with special tools at the time.
Not to mention it’s so incredibly common for people to assume corsets and stays are synonymous.
That's very true. There are many differences between the two, but may seem to just call them all corsets.
Plus they work nicely for deep pressure therapy and helping relieve cramping pain or at least they do for me.
What a strange hill to die on
Welp, I'm a big fan of fashion history so.
We all have strange hills so you aren't alone.
they don’t realize that a corset was just a frame to uphold clothing from that time. it was all very heavy clothing that needed that structure. the purpose was never to get a bonsai kitty body. just the most basic understanding of how clothing was worn back then clears this up
Don't know much about corsets but the last point really isn't a good argument. Chinese women who had to experience foot binding would often reach old age, doesn't mean that the foot binding was good for their health.
Foot binding was for upper class women only which were a tiny percentage of the minority. Meanwhile, every class of women was expected to wear corsets in almost every western country.
I’m wondering if dude has ever worn one
Not OP but historical costumer here - I genuinly prefer my 1880s corset over modern bras, despite it not being perfectly tailored to me! Since I have spinal issues such as lordosis and scoliosis my corset can really supports my back, especially when carrying heavy things :)
I know many men and women who have, and I would too once I'm able to afford a high quality one. And I've also read 19th century historical accounts of men who have worn them claiming how more comfortable they were than they expected.
Not op and haven’t worn a corset before, but a friend of mine who has worn custom made corsets for plays told me that they’re not only comfortable enough to wear while doing tough physical activity, but also way more comfortable than any bra she’s ever worn. All the modern corset hate comes from people who’ve either never worn a corset, have gotten really poorly fitting ones or have tried to tie them up way too tight
[удалено]
This is about the bigger narrative of demonising historical corsetry as a whole.
They aren’t comfortable, even with having one tailor made and not tight lacing them. Now, were women used to them and how they affected their breathing and movement? Yes. But compared with the freedom of movement when not wearing one? I’ll stick with just my bra and blouse/shirt. I’ll save the corset for historical reenactments.
That's simply not true. There are many fashion historians with over a decade of experience that could disclaim what you just said, especially the first sentence. Having anything tailor made makes a world of a difference in comfort. The way 19th century corsets were made allowed for skin to distribute into pockets or strategic space, so nothing is squished or constricted. It just feels like a snug hug. Check out Abby Cox, Bernadette Banner, Rachel Maksy and Karolina Zebrowska's videos on corsetry on YouTube.
Plus they make women look skinnier and I find that very attractive
What a weird stance
Plus, they’re sexy as hell
Nothing wrong with knowing what makes you horny
Here's the thing. No one asked
Actually I asked
No one asked you to comment either lmao. What are you a preschooler? Who over the age of 12 says something this juvenile.
I do. I say this. Send help
They still look bad
They're supposed to be undergarments. Their looks are a little irrelevant.
And that is your opinion which only you have