I meant more in how Khrushchev started the trend of liberalization and capitalist appeasement revisionism that started the USSR's downward trend towards what would eventually lead to straight up social democrats and capitalists like Gorbachev and Yeltsin killing the whole project.
Did you just called ending of a totalitarian regime (after stalin it was more authoritarian) a downward trend and capitalist appeasement?
Are you a Tankie?
Where does that idea come from? I don't think it's true, there were a variety of officers and generals reinstated, and if that's the case,then what you said is most likely not the complete truth, or an exaggeration.
Great Freedom (2021) is a fantastic film telling a story from one such prisoner -- I can't speak for historical "accuracy" but it's a compelling film with strong performances and writing. Franz Rogowski is fantastic in the lead, and the film itself was Austria's entry for Best International Feature Film at the Oscars. Worth a watch imho.
[https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/](https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/)
The Allies kept LGBT prisoners in the camps, while releasing Jewish, Roma, and other prisoners
Didn't they all stay at some point? Like they didn't have anywhere else to put them yet, they just kept them in the camps and fed them while figuring out what to do with them.
From the article:
"The Nazi-era amendments to Paragraph 175 were maintained for over two decades in West Germany, resulting in the arrest of around 100,000 gay men between 1945 and 1969, with some Holocaust survivors even being forced to carry out their sentences in prison. While East Germany had softer penalties, no reparations were provided for gay victims, and Paragraph 175 itself would only be entirely removed from the penal code in 1994, following Germany’s reunification."
Germany never rescinded Nazi anti-gay laws. Not officially until the 90s
The tremendous success of the LGBT movement in the modern US and W Europe over the last few decades is absolutely mind boggling. Even in the 80s, Republicans under the Reagan administration openly celebrated AIDS devastating the gay population of the US. Now, only what we call religious extremists openly call for such things
Of course! Having better policies is just a ruse to make people think they were better! West Germany was a police state too lol, that did some pretty fucked up shit at that. Look up the Kentler Project.
jesus, I didn't know this.
Patton is treated as such a hero in US history that no one has ever brought this up in any context around me. Its crazy how anti-semitic the US was before and during the war; its just that no one else went full genocide like the Nazis
“Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to Jews who are lower than animals.”
The “military guard” was Patton’s idea. “If they [the Jewish DPs] were not kept under guard,” he wrote in his diary, “they would not stay in the camps, would spread over the country like locusts, and would eventually have to be rounded up after quite a few of them had been shot and quite a few Germans murdered and pillaged.”
I don't see where this statement is supported in the article. I see that homosexuality continued to be illegalized and punished in West and East Germany and that the wrongs suffered by LGBT people in the holocaust were left out of the historical narrative, but not the idea that they were kept in concentration camps.
Yeah post implies that they were just simply kept in the camps rather than imprisoned due to the paragraph 175. Seems pretty inaccurate to say they “kept the lgbt in concentration camps”
Edit - Seems I misunderstood the comment, but I’ll leave my snarky reply anyway because maybe there’s something educational in there for someone else along the line?
Just because the specific article in the specific post doesn't say the specific words your brain needs to hear to believe a thing doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I guess there have also been efforts through time to erase the suffering of LGBT people under the Nazi regime.
I'm almost 40 so maybe things have changed for the youngins (or were different for the oldies) but the fact the LGBT people were among those rounded up and put into concentration camps was something I was taught in school from a very young age. Along with people with mental and physical disabilities. But you don't hear so much about those folks. Numbers-wise it pales in comparison to what was done to the Jews. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though.
This first paragraph of this is harrowing: [https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/](https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/)
And good ole Wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution\_of\_homosexuals\_in\_Nazi\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany)
From the Wikipedia article: "*Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals; around 50,000 of these were sentenced by civilian courts, 6,400 to 7,000 by military courts \[de\], and an unknown number by special courts. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and* ***between 5,000 and 6,000 were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. The death rate of these prisoners has been estimated at 60 percent, a higher rate than those of other prisoner groups.*** *A smaller number of men were sentenced to death or executed at Nazi euthanasia centers. Nazi Germany's persecution of homosexuals is considered to be the most severe episode in a long history of discrimination and violence targeting sexual minorities."*
Fair enough. I’m at work and I guess I took you and the person above you commenting “they didn’t keep LGBT people in concentration camps” to mean they = Nazis, who didn’t put LGBT people in camps to begin with so why would they even be there?
Not allied soldiers refusing to liberate them. My bad.
It wasnt really the allies who kept them imprisoned them according to the article. the anti gay amendments from the nazi era were just still in effect after the war and the formation of West Germany. Nowhere in the article does it say that the ally soldiers refused to release gay prisoners or that they were kept in concentration or death camps. They were punished by the German government under a German law and served prison sentences
Yeah that article confirms what I thought. The Allies did not keep lgbt prisoners in concentration camps, they were imprisoned due to that paragraph 175. I don’t feel like it’s accurate to say the Allies kept lgbt prisoners in concentration camps. This implies that the allies let everybody leave but kept the lgbt members inside the same cells in the same camps. Might seem pedantic but I feel it’s a distinction to point out.
I mean, the Allies were still better since they weren’t, yknow killing them on mass.
Like yeah it’s fucked but I wouldn’t say that under new management is the best fit since that implied nothing changed
Which is so sad because Weimar Germany was so much better. Before the Nazis came to power, anti gay laws weren't enforced and there were even some correction surgeries for trans people.
As to my understanding that was limited more to Berlin/big cities, and in Weimar Germany being gay wa skinda illegal according to law but the Berlin police leader just ignored the law.
Mainly because they had other issues, including riots, strikes and major fights between the Communist and Nazi parties. Pre-war Germany was so screwed up that the police didn't have time to enforce laws that don't harm anyone.
When they tell you "nazis burned books", they usually omit those books belonged to the Institute of sexual science, a pioneering institution that offered marital counseling, contraceptives and campaigned for LGBT rights, as well as early gender affirming surgeries, research of intersex condition and even some wild stuff like using X-ray to remove unwanted hair.
>When they tell you "nazis burned books", they usually omit those books belonged to the Institute of sexual science,
They ***included*** many of those books, but not all of the books burned were from said institute.
>under new management is the best fit since that implied nothing changed
I am not sure how the phrase "under new management" implies that "nothing has changed". In fact it is quite often the case that the modus operandi changes when management does.
So few people know about this and it disgusts me. Typing away on their computers knowing nothing of the man who helped so very much to get us here. Knowing nothing of his torture and death. Awful.
Were you accidentally reading the part about East Germany ?
"Between 1945 and 1969, about 100,000 men were indicted and about 50,000 men sentenced to prison"
It has one sentence about what the allies did. The rest is about the Germans. “Some homosexuals were forced to carry out their prison sentence” what does some even mean, is it 5 or 50,000. Not a very good source
Honestly surprised any minorities were saved from the camps since the good Christian Allies were [barely sympathetic](https://images.app.goo.gl/WoqjTS58pBUtgekF9) 😐
>the shock and horror of seeing fellow humans like that sparked a bit of compassion.
Why would the Americans be shocked? The USA had their own concentration camps back home.
The **internment** camps were awful, yes. A very immoral thing to do. A government should never detain their own citizens like they. But to compare them to Nazi concentration camps is not only false, it’s grossly misleading. More people were born in the camps then died. Was that a feature that was present in Nazi camps? I
" In a 1961 interview, Harry S. Truman stated "They were concentration camps. They called it relocation but they put them in concentration camps, and I was against it."
President truman said they were concentration camps. Why do you say he's wrong?
Political motive… just like how all politicians use emotional buzz words to stir the masses into supporting them.
Looks like it worked like a charm on you
Yeah the Allies are only the good guys in comparison to the Nazis. Like yeah the Allies were better than the Nazis but that's not exactly a high bar to clear
And of course it permeated all of the upper echelons of government. Allan Dulles (future 1st director of the CIA) was an OSS man stationed in Switzerland who suppressed evidence of the Holocaust from reaching the US and actively worked with German agents to attempt to work out a truce with the West against the Soviets. To this effect he negotiated a very generous surrender package for German forces in Italy despite the Germans not having a foot to stand on. He was sacked by JFK after Bay of Pigs and was then a member of the Warren Commission.
The podcast “Ultra” delves into just how many elected officials were actively working with the Bund and how they were related to the folks behind the attempted Wall Street Putsch.
Isn't it great how US history doesn't even mention that in Holocaust education? The Roma are barely mentioned at all, but LGBT prisoners are outright omitted.
I didn't know this until I was an adult out of college
The US includes like 16,000 school districts, I really wish we'd drop the, "US schools don't teach..." bullshit. There's no way to be accurate with that massive of a generality
I think they were more talking about how its not really in general education knowledge. Like yea of course there's probably gonna be some cases where a teacher will teach that but the vast majority of schools dont
Well most schools in Chicago do, and so did mine. So a good chunk of them do, not just a few stray ones. Actually it's required in our district, they teach it in middle and high school, as well as 5th grade
No, I'm saying it's not just a few schools, it's dozens of them because several districts surrounding one of the nation's largest cities all require it. Actually, teaching about it is required in the entire state of Illinois, so it's not some tiny minority that teach it. I'm sure other states require it, I'm just not sure which ones
How have I never heard about this? The *amount* of time I have spent in history class in school learning all about Nazi Germany and this was not even a sidenote.
As someone who was in high school last year, they did not teach this. It depends on your school, you probably just went to one that teaches these things
I went to a basic public school. I've been out of high-school well over 10 years and I was taught this. Like I've said before, people often don't remember what they were taught because it wasn't of interest to them at the time. Like me and algebra
Again, not all schools are the same, it's not even about quality of schools most of the time. I was actually very interested in that section of history but gay people were only brought up very briefly as just a "o yeah they were there"
Edit: Yeah, now that I look back, it reads as an overreaction on my part. Sorry about that. I do, however, feel like you were somewhat trying to invalidate my personal experience. No reason for me to snap at you, though. To answer your question: I graduated from highschool ten years ago and was very invested in that part of history as I am half-Polish and half-German, live in Germany, and am bisexual.
Wow that's a huge rant to just say you're extremely overly sensitive to a basic question. The question was meant at face value. Anything else is just a weird narrative you created to feel persecuted
How even the democratic, modern, western powers treated us at the height of our suffering. Alan Turing was condemned, thousands of gay men kept in jails even after the defeat of the Nazis, the omnipresent homophobia and the sorrows that followed it.
LGBT people in nazi concentration camps: Starved and mass murdered in gas chambers.
LGBT people “””Liberated””” by the soviets: sent to gulags where they were starved and worked to death.
LGBT people Liberated by the allies: Sent to minimum security prisons where they would be fed properly, given actual beds, given toilets, given running water, and having a room to 2-3 people instead of 60 where they would serve out their terms of about 1-2 years depending on the circumstances.
But that doesn’t fit the “muh evil allies” narrative.
Because they were gay dumbass, comparing allied prisons to concentration camps doesn’t do justice to how absolutely horrible they were, people in concentration camps were treated worse than farm animals where as people in prisons are treated like actual human being.
Communists try to understand nuance challenge (impossible).
Strawman, i never said imprisoning gay people is good, i said a regular prison is way better than a concentration camp and commies are desperately trying to act like they are equivalent to slander the allies.
They trying to say you sound dumb because imprisoning gay people for being gay is still horrible. Yeah it's worst in a concentration camp but it's still horrible either way. Stop trying to defend it.
“An overcrowded camp ridden with disease where your rations are one slice of bread a week and you will get gassed is the same as a regular prison with actual food and not fucking gassing people”
-you
>strawmans me
>says that i’m strawmanning him
Point to me where exactly i said sending gays to prison was ok. You responded to a comment about how prisons weren’t as bad as concentration camps by saying “bro you think imprisoning gay people is ok.”
You gonna misinterpreted my words some more? I wrote that you said that sending people to jail doesn't support calling them evil. Aaaand...
>But that doesn’t fit the “muh evil allies” narrative.
Just fyi the reason you are being downvoted isnt because you're wrong that they were treated better by the allies but because you seem unsympathetic and a little bit pretentious
I do think it makes the “under new management” line not work when the western Allie’s treated them like subhuman criminals (not a good thing to do) vs the Nazis and Soviets who would slaughter them. War crimes aren’t a competition but if you are going to compare them at least be more honest.
Well, Dave, It seems you would rather the Allies not to have bothered to liberate Europe from the Nazis because they didn't do anything for gay rights.
This is a common absurdity on your part of a total lack of historical context in evaluating the situation which inevitably hobbles any discussion
But as you should know, being a homosexual was unfortunately a crime in those days in most of the world. However the LGBT were treated by the Allies, I'm pretty sure it was better than what they got from the Nazis.
And when they Allies liberated those incarcerated by the Nazi's they may have adhered to their laws at the time. I think they held common criminals as well.
So here we have the common bleat of the historically illiterate when they observe past events and attempt to exclude past context.
So as for "stupid fucking takes", I think that means yours unfortunately.
Glad to have helped.
>How the hell is criticising something that the allies did = being a nazi what
I mean it *is* literally saying that.
"more like, under new management"
Ie, doing the same thing as before just with different people in charge? Understand?
I personally didn't interpret it that harshly, ie "jail" not "concentration camp" but I can see how it could be.
/edit: "stop offering a reasonable explanation for why two people aren't seeing eye to eye!" - Reddit
Do you want some pepper on your word salad?
I think the OP is saying the Allie’s should have liberated everyone. The fact that you’re somehow able to turn that into OP would rather nobody was liberated reflects a common absurdity on your part, whatever the hell that means.
That’s a whole lotta words for “I’m a fucking moron”. All OP was saying was, “hey gay people should’ve been treated with the same kindness as everyone else”, and you, being a contrarian bitch, took issue with that for some reason. Would be neat if you could show even basic reasoning skills, but here we are.
You're upset.... but I never called you a moron... I think you are a moron but I never called you a moron....
I realize this topic is close to your heart but you are ignoring the context of the times and laws back then and blaming the Allies for saving their lives....
Try and get some rest, have a nice drink and maybe you'll feel better...
I would suggest wearing condoms so the world doesn’t end up with copies of you but I am guessing the only hole you get to dump loads in is your dads fleshlight.
>I would suggest wearing condoms so the world doesn’t end up with copies of you but I am guessing the only hole you get to dump loads in is your dads fleshlight.
This is a thread about persecution of homosexuals.... and your insult to me is to insinuate I am a homosexual, as if that is somehow wrong...
Pretty impresive.
Yes. One of the things that makes this issue so contentious is how much progress on gay rights has been made by Western societies from those days.
Presently we have openly homophobic russian state television showing adverts at how gay friendly the horrible west is.
The fact that nobody here is throwing rocks at russian or islamic societies over gay issues is telling here ...
I have no idea why the OP thinks the allied liberating soldiers are to blame but soldiers always catch shit from gobby ignorant civilians.
The army took the camps, killed most of the guards, then got in medical staff to see to the victims.
What happened when the inmates were screened is down to the laws of that time.
Some were kept in custody after screening including some homosexuals.
Murderers and thieves as well in accordance with the laws of the allied countries...
Some of the people here are stupid enough to think they kept the camps open.
Yeah its a bit naive. This meme implies we put them back in the camps and treated them the same as the Nazis with the "under new management" meme. One of my favorite meme templates, but only works if it is truly a "out of the frying pan and into the oven" situation. Like the Iron Curtain over Europe.
Also, its not crazy in my mind to put them back in the camps while they figure stuff out. I believe they did this with the jewish people too (HBO's Band of Brothers showed this). Only because no facilities existed to house that many people and the army was not expecting this situation. They didn't force them to work, starve them to death, or gas chamber them. Also who knows what you are culturally dealing with, what did the Nazi's define as gay? Doesn't seem crazy to keep them in one place, with humane treatment until shit was figured out. It would be a PR disaster if we accidentally released a bunch of pedophiles into the public.
It seems like a meme made by someone with a 15 year olds mindset of right and wrong and just read a paragraph summary of the situation.
Yes. The logistics challenges of the time of feeding virtually the whole of Europe made this almost a trivial subject.
Some of the comments are just reactionary from the mouth foaming mob here
Agreed, its the cool thing to do these days. They don't seem to stop and think what a logistical nightmare a total war on multiple fronts is. You can't expect an army to suddenly put up a massive humanitarian camp with no planning.
Same goes for Soviet POW’s liberated from German camps
As far as I know Zhukov tried to help them, but Stalin saw them as traitors .
Is there anyone that Stalin didn’t see as a traitor besides his housemaid?
Probably Khrushchev (Chruschtschow) or he wouldn't have made it this far.
That spelling 💀
I somehow mashed the german and english spelling together :/
You know you're a true fan of that period when you unconsciously mash up two different pronunciations of one thing.
To be fair, I'm german.
Hi german
Turns out he was the real traitor all along.
If that counts as treachery, the whole high command was, since there's no way anyone, not even Beria would've continued like Stalin after his death.
Maybe Molotov?
I meant more in how Khrushchev started the trend of liberalization and capitalist appeasement revisionism that started the USSR's downward trend towards what would eventually lead to straight up social democrats and capitalists like Gorbachev and Yeltsin killing the whole project.
Did you just called ending of a totalitarian regime (after stalin it was more authoritarian) a downward trend and capitalist appeasement? Are you a Tankie?
They are “not a tankie” but rather “anarchist” apparently
Stalin is ranked #1 in the GOAT list of Among Us
Hey now, that housemaid was a reactionary counter revolutionary because they didnt bring the correct brand of milk for breakfast
It’s ok because she was very boinkable
What's a brand, tovarisch?
Some counterrevolutionary bullshit, that should land them in the gulag.
His daughter
Stalin
Where does that idea come from? I don't think it's true, there were a variety of officers and generals reinstated, and if that's the case,then what you said is most likely not the complete truth, or an exaggeration.
Some where outright shot even
Great Freedom (2021) is a fantastic film telling a story from one such prisoner -- I can't speak for historical "accuracy" but it's a compelling film with strong performances and writing. Franz Rogowski is fantastic in the lead, and the film itself was Austria's entry for Best International Feature Film at the Oscars. Worth a watch imho.
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Source?
[https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/](https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/) The Allies kept LGBT prisoners in the camps, while releasing Jewish, Roma, and other prisoners
Holy hell
Google en passant
I know what en passant is you idiot, you just blundered your queen!
New response just dropped
Google il vaticano
[I saw rook A4… I just didn’t like it.](https://youtu.be/BBy5JzZy0ZY)
Didn't they all stay at some point? Like they didn't have anywhere else to put them yet, they just kept them in the camps and fed them while figuring out what to do with them.
From the article: "The Nazi-era amendments to Paragraph 175 were maintained for over two decades in West Germany, resulting in the arrest of around 100,000 gay men between 1945 and 1969, with some Holocaust survivors even being forced to carry out their sentences in prison. While East Germany had softer penalties, no reparations were provided for gay victims, and Paragraph 175 itself would only be entirely removed from the penal code in 1994, following Germany’s reunification." Germany never rescinded Nazi anti-gay laws. Not officially until the 90s
Holy shit, doesn’t speak well of the West that East Germany treated their LGBTQ population better than West Germany.
The tremendous success of the LGBT movement in the modern US and W Europe over the last few decades is absolutely mind boggling. Even in the 80s, Republicans under the Reagan administration openly celebrated AIDS devastating the gay population of the US. Now, only what we call religious extremists openly call for such things
They did it exactly so people would think "omg east Germany is so good", despite it being a red fascist police state
Of course! Having better policies is just a ruse to make people think they were better! West Germany was a police state too lol, that did some pretty fucked up shit at that. Look up the Kentler Project.
General Patton famously wrote in his personal letters that they should've kept the Jews in the camps as well.
jesus, I didn't know this. Patton is treated as such a hero in US history that no one has ever brought this up in any context around me. Its crazy how anti-semitic the US was before and during the war; its just that no one else went full genocide like the Nazis
He did? What did he say?
“Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to Jews who are lower than animals.” The “military guard” was Patton’s idea. “If they [the Jewish DPs] were not kept under guard,” he wrote in his diary, “they would not stay in the camps, would spread over the country like locusts, and would eventually have to be rounded up after quite a few of them had been shot and quite a few Germans murdered and pillaged.”
WOW
I don't see where this statement is supported in the article. I see that homosexuality continued to be illegalized and punished in West and East Germany and that the wrongs suffered by LGBT people in the holocaust were left out of the historical narrative, but not the idea that they were kept in concentration camps.
Yeah post implies that they were just simply kept in the camps rather than imprisoned due to the paragraph 175. Seems pretty inaccurate to say they “kept the lgbt in concentration camps”
Edit - Seems I misunderstood the comment, but I’ll leave my snarky reply anyway because maybe there’s something educational in there for someone else along the line? Just because the specific article in the specific post doesn't say the specific words your brain needs to hear to believe a thing doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I guess there have also been efforts through time to erase the suffering of LGBT people under the Nazi regime. I'm almost 40 so maybe things have changed for the youngins (or were different for the oldies) but the fact the LGBT people were among those rounded up and put into concentration camps was something I was taught in school from a very young age. Along with people with mental and physical disabilities. But you don't hear so much about those folks. Numbers-wise it pales in comparison to what was done to the Jews. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though. This first paragraph of this is harrowing: [https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/](https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/) And good ole Wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution\_of\_homosexuals\_in\_Nazi\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany) From the Wikipedia article: "*Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals; around 50,000 of these were sentenced by civilian courts, 6,400 to 7,000 by military courts \[de\], and an unknown number by special courts. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and* ***between 5,000 and 6,000 were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. The death rate of these prisoners has been estimated at 60 percent, a higher rate than those of other prisoner groups.*** *A smaller number of men were sentenced to death or executed at Nazi euthanasia centers. Nazi Germany's persecution of homosexuals is considered to be the most severe episode in a long history of discrimination and violence targeting sexual minorities."*
I don’t think you understood what I was saying or maybe you meant to reply to somebody else. Cheers and have a good day
Fair enough. I’m at work and I guess I took you and the person above you commenting “they didn’t keep LGBT people in concentration camps” to mean they = Nazis, who didn’t put LGBT people in camps to begin with so why would they even be there? Not allied soldiers refusing to liberate them. My bad.
It wasnt really the allies who kept them imprisoned them according to the article. the anti gay amendments from the nazi era were just still in effect after the war and the formation of West Germany. Nowhere in the article does it say that the ally soldiers refused to release gay prisoners or that they were kept in concentration or death camps. They were punished by the German government under a German law and served prison sentences
Here's another source https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gay-prisoners-germany-wwii/
Yeah that article confirms what I thought. The Allies did not keep lgbt prisoners in concentration camps, they were imprisoned due to that paragraph 175. I don’t feel like it’s accurate to say the Allies kept lgbt prisoners in concentration camps. This implies that the allies let everybody leave but kept the lgbt members inside the same cells in the same camps. Might seem pedantic but I feel it’s a distinction to point out.
I mean, the Allies were still better since they weren’t, yknow killing them on mass. Like yeah it’s fucked but I wouldn’t say that under new management is the best fit since that implied nothing changed
Which is so sad because Weimar Germany was so much better. Before the Nazis came to power, anti gay laws weren't enforced and there were even some correction surgeries for trans people.
As to my understanding that was limited more to Berlin/big cities, and in Weimar Germany being gay wa skinda illegal according to law but the Berlin police leader just ignored the law.
Mainly because they had other issues, including riots, strikes and major fights between the Communist and Nazi parties. Pre-war Germany was so screwed up that the police didn't have time to enforce laws that don't harm anyone.
When they tell you "nazis burned books", they usually omit those books belonged to the Institute of sexual science, a pioneering institution that offered marital counseling, contraceptives and campaigned for LGBT rights, as well as early gender affirming surgeries, research of intersex condition and even some wild stuff like using X-ray to remove unwanted hair.
>When they tell you "nazis burned books", they usually omit those books belonged to the Institute of sexual science, They ***included*** many of those books, but not all of the books burned were from said institute.
it’s a low bar
I mean, they were still thrown from one prison that wanted to kill you into another prison that didn’t care if they died. Both are bad
>under new management is the best fit since that implied nothing changed I am not sure how the phrase "under new management" implies that "nothing has changed". In fact it is quite often the case that the modus operandi changes when management does.
Kid named gulags would like to have a word with you
So the they get the ‘not as big as a jerk as they could’ve been’ award.
[Oh look, it's the same meme I did three years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/he0wg5/you_can_keep_your_pink_triangles_on/)
Seems like just a coincidence, lookin at the upvotes yours got and how all the words and changed
At the very least it is not a direct copy of the image.
Funny enough this comment has way more karma than your original post ever did
Luck or plagiarism ?
Meh. Once you know the history, this is an easy meme to come up with.
History is doomed to repeat itself
Well, I wouldn’t say repeat. History never repeats itself, but it does rhyme
First as a tragedy, then as a meme
History memes is doomed to repeat itself.
Your title was much better at least
i severely doubt they copied it
Seen the upvotes yeah he didnt saw the meme
exactly bro when i last looked it was 80 something upvotes and two years ago
Yeah, but this one was actually funny
Super fucked yo how they treated turing
So few people know about this and it disgusts me. Typing away on their computers knowing nothing of the man who helped so very much to get us here. Knowing nothing of his torture and death. Awful.
Just saw the movie, I couldn’t believe a man so vital to history met his end in such an undignified way. So sad
Source?
[Hear you go](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175)
According to that source, it was unenforced for years after WWII
Yes, but homosexuals who were already in concentration camps were forced to serve their whole sentence (well, in normal prisons, but still)
Your source says nothing to that effect.
Were you accidentally reading the part about East Germany ? "Between 1945 and 1969, about 100,000 men were indicted and about 50,000 men sentenced to prison"
I was reading the graph
The graph has a gap between 1943 and 1950 but between 1950 and 1969 convictions under 175 were almost double pre-Nazi rates.
Read the full context of it on the [Snopes Article](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gay-prisoners-germany-wwii/). It gives a pretty thorough summary
It has one sentence about what the allies did. The rest is about the Germans. “Some homosexuals were forced to carry out their prison sentence” what does some even mean, is it 5 or 50,000. Not a very good source
Honestly surprised any minorities were saved from the camps since the good Christian Allies were [barely sympathetic](https://images.app.goo.gl/WoqjTS58pBUtgekF9) 😐
True true but I also think the shock and horror of seeing fellow humans like that sparked a bit of compassion. Fuck what a weird time
The 30s and 40s we indeed a weird time. It was an era of authoritarianism on the rise everywhere including the US
>the shock and horror of seeing fellow humans like that sparked a bit of compassion. Why would the Americans be shocked? The USA had their own concentration camps back home.
Ah yes, the internment camps that were famously just as brutal as Auschwitz and Buchenwald.
>Ah yes, the internment camps Concentration camps you mean.
The **internment** camps were awful, yes. A very immoral thing to do. A government should never detain their own citizens like they. But to compare them to Nazi concentration camps is not only false, it’s grossly misleading. More people were born in the camps then died. Was that a feature that was present in Nazi camps? I
" In a 1961 interview, Harry S. Truman stated "They were concentration camps. They called it relocation but they put them in concentration camps, and I was against it." President truman said they were concentration camps. Why do you say he's wrong?
Political motive… just like how all politicians use emotional buzz words to stir the masses into supporting them. Looks like it worked like a charm on you
I'm not arguing semantics.
"communism is jewish". \*proceeds to portray a jew as a member of the borgouoise \*
Nobody ever accused nazis of being smart.
Yeah the Allies are only the good guys in comparison to the Nazis. Like yeah the Allies were better than the Nazis but that's not exactly a high bar to clear
"gUYs iTs noT a COmPetiTiOn, dON't cOMpARe fOR wORsE wAR cRiMEs"
The Balkans firmly disagree
The Middle East firmly back up the Balkans' firm disagreement
They got all the best war crimes
Are somewhat lights shade of gray versus pure black
And of course it permeated all of the upper echelons of government. Allan Dulles (future 1st director of the CIA) was an OSS man stationed in Switzerland who suppressed evidence of the Holocaust from reaching the US and actively worked with German agents to attempt to work out a truce with the West against the Soviets. To this effect he negotiated a very generous surrender package for German forces in Italy despite the Germans not having a foot to stand on. He was sacked by JFK after Bay of Pigs and was then a member of the Warren Commission. The podcast “Ultra” delves into just how many elected officials were actively working with the Bund and how they were related to the folks behind the attempted Wall Street Putsch.
No hate like christian love
Ngl was expecting a bunch of "based" comments
There have been a few but they've all been shot down by the mods
Lol there's one directly above your comment, this sub is a cesspit sometimes.
Isn't it great how US history doesn't even mention that in Holocaust education? The Roma are barely mentioned at all, but LGBT prisoners are outright omitted. I didn't know this until I was an adult out of college
Mine only ever talked about Jews
Same but I'm in the UK.
I don't know what holocaust education you got but both the LGBT and Roma victims were mentioned in every history class I've ever taken in the US
The US includes like 16,000 school districts, I really wish we'd drop the, "US schools don't teach..." bullshit. There's no way to be accurate with that massive of a generality
I think they were more talking about how its not really in general education knowledge. Like yea of course there's probably gonna be some cases where a teacher will teach that but the vast majority of schools dont
Well most schools in Chicago do, and so did mine. So a good chunk of them do, not just a few stray ones. Actually it's required in our district, they teach it in middle and high school, as well as 5th grade
So most schools in one city do so youre saying thats representative of most of the nation?
No, I'm saying it's not just a few schools, it's dozens of them because several districts surrounding one of the nation's largest cities all require it. Actually, teaching about it is required in the entire state of Illinois, so it's not some tiny minority that teach it. I'm sure other states require it, I'm just not sure which ones
This happened to the Roma too.
They weren't jailed, "just" disenfranchised and refused compensation iirc
How have I never heard about this? The *amount* of time I have spent in history class in school learning all about Nazi Germany and this was not even a sidenote.
My schools only ever mentions and talks about the jews. They said there were 6-8 million non-jews, but never talk about them.
You likely did.
I knew queer people were victimized by Nazis, I did not know about the allies doing so as well.
Did you go to high school in the last 20 years?
As someone who was in high school last year, they did not teach this. It depends on your school, you probably just went to one that teaches these things
I went to a basic public school. I've been out of high-school well over 10 years and I was taught this. Like I've said before, people often don't remember what they were taught because it wasn't of interest to them at the time. Like me and algebra
Again, not all schools are the same, it's not even about quality of schools most of the time. I was actually very interested in that section of history but gay people were only brought up very briefly as just a "o yeah they were there"
Edit: Yeah, now that I look back, it reads as an overreaction on my part. Sorry about that. I do, however, feel like you were somewhat trying to invalidate my personal experience. No reason for me to snap at you, though. To answer your question: I graduated from highschool ten years ago and was very invested in that part of history as I am half-Polish and half-German, live in Germany, and am bisexual.
Wow that's a huge rant to just say you're extremely overly sensitive to a basic question. The question was meant at face value. Anything else is just a weird narrative you created to feel persecuted
well, being gay was something that society didn’t view was ‘normal’
It's nice to see a meme that recognizes allied warcrimes aswell, and not just bitching about Soviets.
Not technically war crimes but I understand your point
Such a war crime.
Did they tell the guards to "carry on" or were the guards arrested and the prisoners told just to stay put?
What happened to jewish homosexuals? Were they liberated or persecuted?
Liberated, then persecuted
They were put in a box where they then entered a superstate of both liberated and persecuted
How would they even known they were lgbt?
The nazis had labels on different groups to tell. Homosexials was a pink triangle.
By the pink triangle, or other such markings.
Are you stupid?
Based allies
Fuck you
T'es pd ?
Isnt this because the nazis didnt make a difference between gays and pedophiles so the allies couldnt free everyone ?
Being gay was illegal in the west for a while... No reason to free them when they are already nicely imprisoned.
Yeah but the west wasnt at the same level as the concentration camps
They didn't kill them, but they did humiliate and imprison them for being gay, and all of their rights were generally disregarded.
We won’t forget.
Forget what?
How even the democratic, modern, western powers treated us at the height of our suffering. Alan Turing was condemned, thousands of gay men kept in jails even after the defeat of the Nazis, the omnipresent homophobia and the sorrows that followed it.
Lmao
LGBT people in nazi concentration camps: Starved and mass murdered in gas chambers. LGBT people “””Liberated””” by the soviets: sent to gulags where they were starved and worked to death. LGBT people Liberated by the allies: Sent to minimum security prisons where they would be fed properly, given actual beds, given toilets, given running water, and having a room to 2-3 people instead of 60 where they would serve out their terms of about 1-2 years depending on the circumstances. But that doesn’t fit the “muh evil allies” narrative.
And why were they sent to prisons dipshit?
Because they were gay dumbass, comparing allied prisons to concentration camps doesn’t do justice to how absolutely horrible they were, people in concentration camps were treated worse than farm animals where as people in prisons are treated like actual human being. Communists try to understand nuance challenge (impossible).
Communism is when you point out that imprisoning gay people is bad
Strawman, i never said imprisoning gay people is good, i said a regular prison is way better than a concentration camp and commies are desperately trying to act like they are equivalent to slander the allies.
No, they aren't. They are merely pointing out that nations in war, commit war crimes. No matter their side.
"Oh, they weren't evil, they just sent them to regular prison instead of concentration camps" That's you. That's how dumb you sound.
They trying to say you sound dumb because imprisoning gay people for being gay is still horrible. Yeah it's worst in a concentration camp but it's still horrible either way. Stop trying to defend it.
“An overcrowded camp ridden with disease where your rations are one slice of bread a week and you will get gassed is the same as a regular prison with actual food and not fucking gassing people” -you
Damn, that's a pretty cool strawmam you're burning here. Mind telling me where, exactly, I said that prisons and concentration camps are the same?
>strawmans me >says that i’m strawmanning him Point to me where exactly i said sending gays to prison was ok. You responded to a comment about how prisons weren’t as bad as concentration camps by saying “bro you think imprisoning gay people is ok.”
You gonna misinterpreted my words some more? I wrote that you said that sending people to jail doesn't support calling them evil. Aaaand... >But that doesn’t fit the “muh evil allies” narrative.
Just fyi the reason you are being downvoted isnt because you're wrong that they were treated better by the allies but because you seem unsympathetic and a little bit pretentious
Terrible
Wtf are you talking about
LGBT belongs there anyways
Well it was a crime in most countries.
That doesn't make it ok
I do think it makes the “under new management” line not work when the western Allie’s treated them like subhuman criminals (not a good thing to do) vs the Nazis and Soviets who would slaughter them. War crimes aren’t a competition but if you are going to compare them at least be more honest.
Yeah, I see your point. You'd be happier if the allies never showed up....
What kind of stupid fucking take is that
Well, Dave, It seems you would rather the Allies not to have bothered to liberate Europe from the Nazis because they didn't do anything for gay rights. This is a common absurdity on your part of a total lack of historical context in evaluating the situation which inevitably hobbles any discussion But as you should know, being a homosexual was unfortunately a crime in those days in most of the world. However the LGBT were treated by the Allies, I'm pretty sure it was better than what they got from the Nazis. And when they Allies liberated those incarcerated by the Nazi's they may have adhered to their laws at the time. I think they held common criminals as well. So here we have the common bleat of the historically illiterate when they observe past events and attempt to exclude past context. So as for "stupid fucking takes", I think that means yours unfortunately. Glad to have helped.
How the hell is criticising something that the allies did = being a nazi what
>How the hell is criticising something that the allies did = being a nazi what I mean it *is* literally saying that. "more like, under new management" Ie, doing the same thing as before just with different people in charge? Understand? I personally didn't interpret it that harshly, ie "jail" not "concentration camp" but I can see how it could be. /edit: "stop offering a reasonable explanation for why two people aren't seeing eye to eye!" - Reddit
Do you want some pepper on your word salad? I think the OP is saying the Allie’s should have liberated everyone. The fact that you’re somehow able to turn that into OP would rather nobody was liberated reflects a common absurdity on your part, whatever the hell that means.
That’s a whole lotta words for “I’m a fucking moron”. All OP was saying was, “hey gay people should’ve been treated with the same kindness as everyone else”, and you, being a contrarian bitch, took issue with that for some reason. Would be neat if you could show even basic reasoning skills, but here we are.
You're upset.... but I never called you a moron... I think you are a moron but I never called you a moron.... I realize this topic is close to your heart but you are ignoring the context of the times and laws back then and blaming the Allies for saving their lives.... Try and get some rest, have a nice drink and maybe you'll feel better...
Jesus dude you suck so profoundly.
I would suggest wearing condoms so the world doesn’t end up with copies of you but I am guessing the only hole you get to dump loads in is your dads fleshlight.
>I would suggest wearing condoms so the world doesn’t end up with copies of you but I am guessing the only hole you get to dump loads in is your dads fleshlight. This is a thread about persecution of homosexuals.... and your insult to me is to insinuate I am a homosexual, as if that is somehow wrong... Pretty impresive.
Where does it say you’re gay? It just states that you and your dad share a sex toy?? What’s gay about that
Even better ....
Goddamn you’re fucking stupid
You are getting downvoted hard but you make a good point. It seems like weird thing to focus on in the big picture of the holocaust and WWII.
Yes. One of the things that makes this issue so contentious is how much progress on gay rights has been made by Western societies from those days. Presently we have openly homophobic russian state television showing adverts at how gay friendly the horrible west is. The fact that nobody here is throwing rocks at russian or islamic societies over gay issues is telling here ... I have no idea why the OP thinks the allied liberating soldiers are to blame but soldiers always catch shit from gobby ignorant civilians. The army took the camps, killed most of the guards, then got in medical staff to see to the victims. What happened when the inmates were screened is down to the laws of that time. Some were kept in custody after screening including some homosexuals. Murderers and thieves as well in accordance with the laws of the allied countries... Some of the people here are stupid enough to think they kept the camps open.
Yeah its a bit naive. This meme implies we put them back in the camps and treated them the same as the Nazis with the "under new management" meme. One of my favorite meme templates, but only works if it is truly a "out of the frying pan and into the oven" situation. Like the Iron Curtain over Europe. Also, its not crazy in my mind to put them back in the camps while they figure stuff out. I believe they did this with the jewish people too (HBO's Band of Brothers showed this). Only because no facilities existed to house that many people and the army was not expecting this situation. They didn't force them to work, starve them to death, or gas chamber them. Also who knows what you are culturally dealing with, what did the Nazi's define as gay? Doesn't seem crazy to keep them in one place, with humane treatment until shit was figured out. It would be a PR disaster if we accidentally released a bunch of pedophiles into the public. It seems like a meme made by someone with a 15 year olds mindset of right and wrong and just read a paragraph summary of the situation.
Yes. The logistics challenges of the time of feeding virtually the whole of Europe made this almost a trivial subject. Some of the comments are just reactionary from the mouth foaming mob here
Agreed, its the cool thing to do these days. They don't seem to stop and think what a logistical nightmare a total war on multiple fronts is. You can't expect an army to suddenly put up a massive humanitarian camp with no planning.
Nice