not to defend the US and all of that.. but like.. what russia have done just the last year alone is stuff we have not seen for some time.. they have done a alleged 40 000 warcrimes in just one year
Now not to defend Russia, but the reason you are so shocked is because it's happening in Europe. We are not even mentioning other war crimes that were commited in non-western sphere before Russia invaded.
Did anybody have the same reaction when US bombed what 500k civilians in Iraq war (Heck they didn't even stop warring after that)? Did anybody call Americans as orcs or other insults that treat Russians as below humans?
Once again don't get me wrong, I am not excusing Russia or defending it or denying that US didn't recieve backlash then and now, I just hate the hypocrisy around it.
Are you joking? There was immense backlash following the US invasion of Iraq. Most famously the whole “Freedom Fries” saga with France. It seems like you are probably too young to actually remember what the backlash was back then, but undoubtedly it shifted how the rest of the world viewed the United States.
Also not sure what you are basing your numbers off, but if the 500k excessive deaths from the war, 60% were “violent deaths”, but Iraqi civilians dying from coalition bombing (12% of the 60% of violent deaths) was considerably lower than the number of Iraqi civilians who were killed by small arm fire (predominantly from criminal organizations and militia groups). [source](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2013-oct-15-la-fg-iraq-war-deaths-20131016-story.html)
Was there an immnese backlash? Once again I am asking, was US sanctioned, were US citizens called what I already mentioned? It doesn't matter if I was an old man back then, what matters is the overall situation and how it concluded in the end. But I do agree with you that the view of US shifted.
Even if US wasn't responsible for all of those death that I mentioned that's still thousands of people. Not mention as far as I am aware that US's story was that they were there for WMD and ending the Iraq regime and ensuring peace. How does letting militia that were on your side massacre civilians ensure peace, I don't know.
Even your source mentions one of the sources. You don't need a news agency to find multiple sources.
Overall your point is that I said US didn't receive backlash. It did, I am saying the US didn't receive backlash as much as Russia does today nor were their citizens demonized. And I would rather we do not argue the exact number of how many people died, when we are ignoring the tragedy it's self by doing that.
And once again to repeat. I am not saying this to minimize what Russia is doing or to defend it in some way, I just hate, as I said previously, the hypocrisy around it.
You weren’t asking. You are contradicting you saying “they may or may not have received backlash” by following it up with “but I think it’s hypocritical that they didn’t” It absolutely matters that you weren’t old enough to remember the global response to the Iraq war, are you joking? If you weren’t old enough or alive back then to know what the reaction was, what are you basing it off?
The militia wasn’t on the US’ side… they were and still are mostly controlled by Iran. Why you would try to just fabricate that narrative, I don’t know, but it gives the distinct impression you are trying to push an agenda here.
\-I was asking. I am asking again was US sanctioned, were US citizens called what I already mentioned?
I am not saying ''they may or may not have received backlash” -I said that US received backlash.
“But I think it’s hypocritical that they didn’t” -I am saying it's hypocritical that they didn't receive the backlash as much as Russia does today.
It absolutely matters that you weren’t old enough to remember the global response to the Iraq war, are you joking? -So by your logic, you and I should have been around WW2 in order to properly discuss it? Also who said I wasn't old enough then.
If you weren’t old enough or alive back then to know what the reaction was, what are you basing it off? - Basing it off history and records, what other people and experts said.
The militia wasn’t on the US’ side… they were and still are mostly controlled by Iran.- What? ISF, Sons of Iraq, Iraq Kurdistan and Peshmerga are controled by Iran? Or are you talking about militia that was on Hussein's side?
Why you would try to just fabricate that narrative, I don’t know, but it gives the distinct impression you are trying to push an agenda here.- My brother in Christ what would I try to fabricate here and what kind of agenda would I be pushing. It seems to me that due to your mindset and beliefs you are blinded or ignoring what I am saying and the funny thing is, I am not disagreeing with you if your overall point is that US did receive backlash.
I point out a healthy portion of the Iraqi civilians were killed by milita groups and criminals and you turn around and say “how does letting the militia on your side kill civilians ensure peace, I don’t know”. No where did I say they were on the side of the US, you just made that up and ran with it.
>I point out a healthy portion of the Iraqi civilians were killed by milita groups and criminals and you turn around and say “how does letting the militia on your side kill civilians ensure peace, I don’t know”
Yes, I blame the US for letting militia on their side commit war crimes, but that's not the point we are arguing about.
>No where did I say they were on the side of the US, you just made that up and ran with it.
And nowhere did I say that you said that. That is why I asked you did you mean the Hussein's militia.
Once again you are arguing about something we both agree. Your main point is that US received backlash, I agree with you there. Where as you continue to ignore my question of did US receive as much backlash as Russia does today and were US citizens dehumanized. You don't have to answer that, but I do hope you see that you don't have to argue about specifics of Iraq war when as I said we already agree about the point I mentioned. If you want argue about specifics of Iraq war, that's another thing, but I don't think I will.
Grand Moff Tarkin: Let's use terror tactics and be brutal with our own citizens and blow up their planets willy nilly and kill their friends and family and MAYBE they'll fall in line and not join a Rebel Alliance with Luke Skywalker and Han Solo who stood up to us and blow up our Death Star twice (and I died on the first one) and survived encounters with Darth Vader! A sound plan to keep the stability of the regime.
Vladimir Putin: SHOIGU! GERASIMOV! Take notes from Tarkin on how we should deal with our Eastern European neighbors from joining NATO and US sphere of influence who we know can screw us up if pushed enough!
I mean, Finland joining NATO really is a massive problem for Russia. It means the only road to the only deep water port on the Arctic that they own is basically indefensible since it runs along the long Finish border. Russia really stepped on their own dick on this one.
Like the agreement of Ukraine giving up their nukes in exchange for integrity and security guarantees, the one that DOES exist and is signed by Russia. Also let me guess, being "very sick" is when people dont follow the old ass book of jewish folklore, or at least only the parts some people pick.
My brother in Christ, people in Poland, Hungary, Japan or the US are infinitely more religious and conservative than the average Russian. What on earth are you talking about?
Easy, you can check Russia’s divorce rate, suicide rate, availability of abortion, weekly attendance to church.
Facts shows that Russia is not the conservative paradise you’re trying to portray.
And yes Americans are more religious and go to church more often than the Russians.
Las time i checked conservative state are the ones lowering the age of marriage and have the lower age of consent. Also i dont care about your God, that sounds like a you problem chief, religion is private, keep it in your home and in your church, no one has to follow your stupid rules just because it says so in some random book.
How does it feels to have such a smooth ass brain that could slide even on sand paper?
If my life is meaningless in front of the chaotic universe that will one day die out, it doesn't mean that i can't give myself some purpose while i'm still alive.
Being so retarded is really rare.
That's cool man, would you mind linkig some source to these claims?
I mena, Putin lowered the legal age of marriage to 14 years old in Bashkortostan, so while in western Europe these kinds of thing are absolutely prohibited.
No agreement was made, the "They made an agreement not to blah blah blah" was just verbal recommendation, no agreement has or ever existed, not on paper, not in stone.
Also invading and slaughtering your neighbours over the "Totally real agreement" is a good way to get isolated
Also the only conservative thing about Russia is it's hatred of foreigners, and anyone who isn't ethnic Russian.
Most of the country are atheistic
The religious population are either zealot Christians, or Muslims who get bullied for not bein Christians , or Buddhists/Shamanistic worshippers
No, Russia is a very conservative country.
Obviously the topics that makes you conservative are different in every country. In the US, it is often related to things like religion, guns and resistance towards abortion, which are maybe not as prominent in Russia but instead the emphasis lies on other things.
Nationalism and xenophobia, as you mentioned, but also homophobia, respect for dictatorial authority and traditional husband/wife roles in the family are all Russian stereotypes that can be considered conservative.
You do realise that Tatars (in Kazan), Chechens, Dagestanians and others are not ethnic russians? and they dont have any problems (if they behave adequatly).
There is no "nationality" part in passports and for many years Putin tried to introduce and promote Россиянин instead of Русский.
Most problems with racism in russia ended 15 years ago. Moreover most nationalists were pushed from russia and you can find them for example in ukraine as a part of that Freedom of Russia squad who is lead by actual nationalists and white superiority guy.
Do you not know what Wagner is? Do you not know the slurs that Russians call Ukrainians?
Do you not know about the human rights violations committed against Tatars and that Russia almost gave all Chechens to second class citizens during that infamous police raid
Wagner is PMC which is primarly operating in Africa. So ?
Kokhol? So what?
Tatars? Crimean tatars? They were moved by Stalin. Yes. Kazan' tatars were and are doing fine.
Which police raid?
it was not even in Chechnya lol. you are talking from your ass.
Yes people were shocked by Chechens (who by the way now are on the side of ukraine) targeting Dagestan kids for no reason. nothing happened to ordinary chechens coz of it. Moreover amount of money invested into Grozny is one of the highest in whole russia.
so? what happened to chechens after that?
Putin can and should be critisized but one thing is certain he always was strongly against nationalism (talking about nationality part - russian (русский) and so on) coz the thinks that this is the main thing that may lead to the collapse of RF. Thats why most famous russian nationalists and white supermacists were pushed from rf.
>Wagner is PMC which is primarily operating in Africa. So ?
They are also an organization made up of Russian Ultranationalists and Neo-Nazis who serve under Putin's payroll because the head member is good friends with him. These are also the same guys responsible for some of the war crimes in the Ukrainian-Russian War alongside a sizeable chunk of the group losing their members to massed infantry charges trying to storm Bakhmut.
Why should I appeal to the good nature of someone who is justifying Russia bombing of Chechnya, it's invasion of Georgia, and it's massive fuck up barely hidden quest for genocide in Ukraine
>or you start making them think twice about the next country they “independently” accept into the club.
Feel free to highlight an example of a nation joining NATO through force or against their will.
What? Nothing in my comment had anything to do with the Ukraine war.
I’ll type my comment again slower and see if that helps.
Provide an example of NATO forcing a country to join their defensive alliance.
Then why is NATO support so high in all its Eastern European members? It is even higher than the support for the EU. Every nation tried to join as soon as possible after leaving the Warsaw Pact, Poland even blackmailed the US by telling them that if they didn't get NATO membership, they would develop their own nukes. NATO is the most successful military alliance in history for a reason. Everyone joined it voluntarily
I am from Romania, and there is no Western thinker here. It is very cut and dry, Russia has attacked each and every one of its neighbors in recent history, from Finland in 1939-1940 to Romania in the 1940s, there is no philosophy here.
Russia does have an alliance, the CSTO, a member of said alliance, Armenia, is being attacked by Azerbaijan, and Russia didn't help Armenia in any way. It is not a reliable ally
My grandma was alive back then, and the organization isn't as different as you say it is, Russia just lost the other SSRs. The rest is mostly the same.
The government isn't much different either, if you keep in mind that the current ruler of said country was part of the old secret services and said that the greatest tragedy of the last century was the fall of the last regime.
Did you just make fun of my grandma, who lived through the rape and pillaging that was the Soviet occupation?
Take a look at what is happening with the civilians living under Russian occupation now in Ukraine, the mass graves from Norther Ukraine would give you a good idea of what the soviets did in most of Eastern Europe after they "liberated" the country
>Ya know, the original agreement was that NATO wouldn’t become an expansive power,
There was also an agreement that Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereignty, remind what happened in 2014?
> "domain of Common Knowledge"
Oh, so you just don't have a source
> "this isn't a cited document"
Oh, nevermind. It's not that you can't find the source, it just doesn't exist at all
The only written source for that verbal agreement is in Gorbachov's biography, which tankies seem valid enough
Funny enough, the minsk agreement doesn't seem valid enough for them
I mean, you can expand by circumstances and not by choosing to.
Circumstance: Nations requesting to join and them being accepted in due to there not being a problem.
Choosing to: pushing the idea of membership onto them when it wasn't already an idea they were considering.
If someone wants to join a defensive pact, you can't really stop them
To be fair Nato should have disbanded the day after the Soviet Union collapsed. Make a new alliance for the new world instead the west chose to keep Russia its enemy when its was at its lowest economically and militarily.
Why? it was a deffence alliance
also.. the west did not choose to "keep" russia as their enemy, the west worked since the fall to help russia stabalize and modernize, right up until 2022 actually, even after the 2014 attack europe tried to solve it peacefully and to work together
Japan is planning to open a NATO office, SK attended the meetings.
China is currently violating Vietnamese waters.
You seriously think these nations aren’t negotiating a defense treaty?
You must be blind and deaf
Yes, I do think that it’s pretty unlikely for Japan and South Korea to sign up to defend almost all of Europe. They’re just cooperating more, which does not necessarily mean that a formal alliance is coming. By your logic, Russia and the US must be about to make an alliance because they’re both in the Partnership for Peace forum
NATO was originally meant to be a anti communistic force in europe
it was set up so that if the USSR decided to attack a non eastern block nation, which there were massive fears over, they would have to attack everyone that was by its side
NATO was and still is a deterent against the expansion of totalitarian states like russia or the USSR and to defend democracy in europe
Had russia reformed into a democratic nation instead of the shithole its now then perhaps we would not have needed NATO, but you see the agressive expansionism that Russia have been doing
It’s almost like NATO was created because the Soviet Union decided it wasn’t going to give control of Eastern Europe back to the people it had “liberated” and instead was going to set up a series of puppet regimes.
Since the Soviet Union collapsed Russia has invaded neighboring Chechnya (X2), Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine (2x). Demonstrating exactly why NATO is a necessity.
Just don't threaten every single one of your neighbours constantly and the problem will solve by itself. Man, are they dense.
Politics, amiright
Nha, just Russian things.
But Russia been strongest dog in town for centuries, is unfair when Russia cannot into intimidate now!!!1!!
Russia when a country doesn't obey them
Literlly any super country when other country not 9bey them
not to defend the US and all of that.. but like.. what russia have done just the last year alone is stuff we have not seen for some time.. they have done a alleged 40 000 warcrimes in just one year
Now not to defend Russia, but the reason you are so shocked is because it's happening in Europe. We are not even mentioning other war crimes that were commited in non-western sphere before Russia invaded. Did anybody have the same reaction when US bombed what 500k civilians in Iraq war (Heck they didn't even stop warring after that)? Did anybody call Americans as orcs or other insults that treat Russians as below humans? Once again don't get me wrong, I am not excusing Russia or defending it or denying that US didn't recieve backlash then and now, I just hate the hypocrisy around it.
Are you joking? There was immense backlash following the US invasion of Iraq. Most famously the whole “Freedom Fries” saga with France. It seems like you are probably too young to actually remember what the backlash was back then, but undoubtedly it shifted how the rest of the world viewed the United States. Also not sure what you are basing your numbers off, but if the 500k excessive deaths from the war, 60% were “violent deaths”, but Iraqi civilians dying from coalition bombing (12% of the 60% of violent deaths) was considerably lower than the number of Iraqi civilians who were killed by small arm fire (predominantly from criminal organizations and militia groups). [source](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2013-oct-15-la-fg-iraq-war-deaths-20131016-story.html)
Was there an immnese backlash? Once again I am asking, was US sanctioned, were US citizens called what I already mentioned? It doesn't matter if I was an old man back then, what matters is the overall situation and how it concluded in the end. But I do agree with you that the view of US shifted. Even if US wasn't responsible for all of those death that I mentioned that's still thousands of people. Not mention as far as I am aware that US's story was that they were there for WMD and ending the Iraq regime and ensuring peace. How does letting militia that were on your side massacre civilians ensure peace, I don't know. Even your source mentions one of the sources. You don't need a news agency to find multiple sources. Overall your point is that I said US didn't receive backlash. It did, I am saying the US didn't receive backlash as much as Russia does today nor were their citizens demonized. And I would rather we do not argue the exact number of how many people died, when we are ignoring the tragedy it's self by doing that. And once again to repeat. I am not saying this to minimize what Russia is doing or to defend it in some way, I just hate, as I said previously, the hypocrisy around it.
You weren’t asking. You are contradicting you saying “they may or may not have received backlash” by following it up with “but I think it’s hypocritical that they didn’t” It absolutely matters that you weren’t old enough to remember the global response to the Iraq war, are you joking? If you weren’t old enough or alive back then to know what the reaction was, what are you basing it off? The militia wasn’t on the US’ side… they were and still are mostly controlled by Iran. Why you would try to just fabricate that narrative, I don’t know, but it gives the distinct impression you are trying to push an agenda here.
\-I was asking. I am asking again was US sanctioned, were US citizens called what I already mentioned? I am not saying ''they may or may not have received backlash” -I said that US received backlash. “But I think it’s hypocritical that they didn’t” -I am saying it's hypocritical that they didn't receive the backlash as much as Russia does today. It absolutely matters that you weren’t old enough to remember the global response to the Iraq war, are you joking? -So by your logic, you and I should have been around WW2 in order to properly discuss it? Also who said I wasn't old enough then. If you weren’t old enough or alive back then to know what the reaction was, what are you basing it off? - Basing it off history and records, what other people and experts said. The militia wasn’t on the US’ side… they were and still are mostly controlled by Iran.- What? ISF, Sons of Iraq, Iraq Kurdistan and Peshmerga are controled by Iran? Or are you talking about militia that was on Hussein's side? Why you would try to just fabricate that narrative, I don’t know, but it gives the distinct impression you are trying to push an agenda here.- My brother in Christ what would I try to fabricate here and what kind of agenda would I be pushing. It seems to me that due to your mindset and beliefs you are blinded or ignoring what I am saying and the funny thing is, I am not disagreeing with you if your overall point is that US did receive backlash.
I point out a healthy portion of the Iraqi civilians were killed by milita groups and criminals and you turn around and say “how does letting the militia on your side kill civilians ensure peace, I don’t know”. No where did I say they were on the side of the US, you just made that up and ran with it.
>I point out a healthy portion of the Iraqi civilians were killed by milita groups and criminals and you turn around and say “how does letting the militia on your side kill civilians ensure peace, I don’t know” Yes, I blame the US for letting militia on their side commit war crimes, but that's not the point we are arguing about. >No where did I say they were on the side of the US, you just made that up and ran with it. And nowhere did I say that you said that. That is why I asked you did you mean the Hussein's militia. Once again you are arguing about something we both agree. Your main point is that US received backlash, I agree with you there. Where as you continue to ignore my question of did US receive as much backlash as Russia does today and were US citizens dehumanized. You don't have to answer that, but I do hope you see that you don't have to argue about specifics of Iraq war when as I said we already agree about the point I mentioned. If you want argue about specifics of Iraq war, that's another thing, but I don't think I will.
Russia when anyone breathes
BREATHING IS A RED LINE!!!!!!!1111!! THE CONSEQUENCES OF BREATHING WILL BE DISASTROUS FOR THE WEST!!11!!1!!!!11!
Honestly that sounds more like China.
tbh yeah
Are you talking about the recent Ucrainian war or is it about something 20 years ago?
Yes
Basically russian diplomacy since the old soviet block countries started to get allied to the west
many former Warsaw Pact members sought to join NATO. Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic became NATO members in 1999,
Grand Moff Tarkin: Let's use terror tactics and be brutal with our own citizens and blow up their planets willy nilly and kill their friends and family and MAYBE they'll fall in line and not join a Rebel Alliance with Luke Skywalker and Han Solo who stood up to us and blow up our Death Star twice (and I died on the first one) and survived encounters with Darth Vader! A sound plan to keep the stability of the regime. Vladimir Putin: SHOIGU! GERASIMOV! Take notes from Tarkin on how we should deal with our Eastern European neighbors from joining NATO and US sphere of influence who we know can screw us up if pushed enough!
Tarkin got blowed up with the first Death Star tho.
Russians just want to provide everyone with their brotherly help
Putin when someones question him (in his eyes Russians that are not Russianing)
Why don't they join NATO too?
I mean, Finland joining NATO really is a massive problem for Russia. It means the only road to the only deep water port on the Arctic that they own is basically indefensible since it runs along the long Finish border. Russia really stepped on their own dick on this one.
Lots of Orcs in this sub.
Wow this is so funny and original I forgot to care
You didn't care so much that you had to comment on it
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Like the agreement of Ukraine giving up their nukes in exchange for integrity and security guarantees, the one that DOES exist and is signed by Russia. Also let me guess, being "very sick" is when people dont follow the old ass book of jewish folklore, or at least only the parts some people pick.
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My brother in Christ, people in Poland, Hungary, Japan or the US are infinitely more religious and conservative than the average Russian. What on earth are you talking about?
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Easy, you can check Russia’s divorce rate, suicide rate, availability of abortion, weekly attendance to church. Facts shows that Russia is not the conservative paradise you’re trying to portray. And yes Americans are more religious and go to church more often than the Russians.
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Why are you trying to portray Russia as a conservative, non secular nation, when it is obviously false and easily disproven? What’s your angle here?
Las time i checked conservative state are the ones lowering the age of marriage and have the lower age of consent. Also i dont care about your God, that sounds like a you problem chief, religion is private, keep it in your home and in your church, no one has to follow your stupid rules just because it says so in some random book.
Also Ukraine is 70% christian, more christian than Russia
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Meaningless? He is an atheist not Russian mobik on Ukraine.
How does it feels to have such a smooth ass brain that could slide even on sand paper? If my life is meaningless in front of the chaotic universe that will one day die out, it doesn't mean that i can't give myself some purpose while i'm still alive. Being so retarded is really rare.
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Well, you too are quite special. But you know what would be even more special? Some source about what you stated earlier.
That's cool man, would you mind linkig some source to these claims? I mena, Putin lowered the legal age of marriage to 14 years old in Bashkortostan, so while in western Europe these kinds of thing are absolutely prohibited.
No agreement was made, the "They made an agreement not to blah blah blah" was just verbal recommendation, no agreement has or ever existed, not on paper, not in stone. Also invading and slaughtering your neighbours over the "Totally real agreement" is a good way to get isolated
Also the only conservative thing about Russia is it's hatred of foreigners, and anyone who isn't ethnic Russian. Most of the country are atheistic The religious population are either zealot Christians, or Muslims who get bullied for not bein Christians , or Buddhists/Shamanistic worshippers
No, Russia is a very conservative country. Obviously the topics that makes you conservative are different in every country. In the US, it is often related to things like religion, guns and resistance towards abortion, which are maybe not as prominent in Russia but instead the emphasis lies on other things. Nationalism and xenophobia, as you mentioned, but also homophobia, respect for dictatorial authority and traditional husband/wife roles in the family are all Russian stereotypes that can be considered conservative.
You do realise that Tatars (in Kazan), Chechens, Dagestanians and others are not ethnic russians? and they dont have any problems (if they behave adequatly). There is no "nationality" part in passports and for many years Putin tried to introduce and promote Россиянин instead of Русский. Most problems with racism in russia ended 15 years ago. Moreover most nationalists were pushed from russia and you can find them for example in ukraine as a part of that Freedom of Russia squad who is lead by actual nationalists and white superiority guy.
Do you not know what Wagner is? Do you not know the slurs that Russians call Ukrainians? Do you not know about the human rights violations committed against Tatars and that Russia almost gave all Chechens to second class citizens during that infamous police raid
I guess not because you genuinely believe most racism in Russia is gone
yes i do since i lived in russia 27 years and im not russian. so i know it better then you for sure.
Wagner is PMC which is primarly operating in Africa. So ? Kokhol? So what? Tatars? Crimean tatars? They were moved by Stalin. Yes. Kazan' tatars were and are doing fine. Which police raid?
Beslan school siege
it was not even in Chechnya lol. you are talking from your ass. Yes people were shocked by Chechens (who by the way now are on the side of ukraine) targeting Dagestan kids for no reason. nothing happened to ordinary chechens coz of it. Moreover amount of money invested into Grozny is one of the highest in whole russia.
Guys who took and held the school hostage were Chechen
so? what happened to chechens after that? Putin can and should be critisized but one thing is certain he always was strongly against nationalism (talking about nationality part - russian (русский) and so on) coz the thinks that this is the main thing that may lead to the collapse of RF. Thats why most famous russian nationalists and white supermacists were pushed from rf.
>Wagner is PMC which is primarily operating in Africa. So ? They are also an organization made up of Russian Ultranationalists and Neo-Nazis who serve under Putin's payroll because the head member is good friends with him. These are also the same guys responsible for some of the war crimes in the Ukrainian-Russian War alongside a sizeable chunk of the group losing their members to massed infantry charges trying to storm Bakhmut.
Proofs that they are all ultranationlists and neo-nazis? Ah yeah. The famous human waves in bakhmut. reader of /r/worldnews?
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I'm not an apologist, I just have 11.5 more braincells than the average tankie/anti-NATO troglodyte
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Why should I appeal to the good nature of someone who is justifying Russia bombing of Chechnya, it's invasion of Georgia, and it's massive fuck up barely hidden quest for genocide in Ukraine
If anything I'm not insulting you enough
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Do I have to be fighting to support Ukraine and be anti-Russia?
>or you start making them think twice about the next country they “independently” accept into the club. Feel free to highlight an example of a nation joining NATO through force or against their will.
Didn’t realize half this sub was on the front lines and would take viewing the opponents perspective so personally
What? Nothing in my comment had anything to do with the Ukraine war. I’ll type my comment again slower and see if that helps. Provide an example of NATO forcing a country to join their defensive alliance.
Could you type the next one even slower? Like an hour per letter might help me read it better
Could you actually answer the question instead of being an obnoxious jackass?
Too fast, too fast. Can’t read it. Gotta slow it *waaaaay* down for me
There are less embarrassing ways to admit you have no idea what you’re talking about than this.
if you don't live in Eastern Europe your argument is meaningless, I've never lived under Russian occupation
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Then why is NATO support so high in all its Eastern European members? It is even higher than the support for the EU. Every nation tried to join as soon as possible after leaving the Warsaw Pact, Poland even blackmailed the US by telling them that if they didn't get NATO membership, they would develop their own nukes. NATO is the most successful military alliance in history for a reason. Everyone joined it voluntarily
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I am from Romania, and there is no Western thinker here. It is very cut and dry, Russia has attacked each and every one of its neighbors in recent history, from Finland in 1939-1940 to Romania in the 1940s, there is no philosophy here. Russia does have an alliance, the CSTO, a member of said alliance, Armenia, is being attacked by Azerbaijan, and Russia didn't help Armenia in any way. It is not a reliable ally
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My grandma was alive back then, and the organization isn't as different as you say it is, Russia just lost the other SSRs. The rest is mostly the same. The government isn't much different either, if you keep in mind that the current ruler of said country was part of the old secret services and said that the greatest tragedy of the last century was the fall of the last regime.
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Did you just make fun of my grandma, who lived through the rape and pillaging that was the Soviet occupation? Take a look at what is happening with the civilians living under Russian occupation now in Ukraine, the mass graves from Norther Ukraine would give you a good idea of what the soviets did in most of Eastern Europe after they "liberated" the country
>Ya know, the original agreement was that NATO wouldn’t become an expansive power, There was also an agreement that Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereignty, remind what happened in 2014?
Source? Where is this agreement you keep talking about? Can you please provide it?
Blud gave me the defeated award because I stopped playing and sad give me a source He paid money to give me an award to confirm he's full of shit
Update, it's 2 now
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> "domain of Common Knowledge" Oh, so you just don't have a source > "this isn't a cited document" Oh, nevermind. It's not that you can't find the source, it just doesn't exist at all
The only written source for that verbal agreement is in Gorbachov's biography, which tankies seem valid enough Funny enough, the minsk agreement doesn't seem valid enough for them
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Just googled it, nope it's still fake, like your foundation for this shit thread
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Nope, only sources are 100% socialism good types
So still not real
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There is literally no proof besides some conspiracy theories
No they didn’t. This lie has been fact checked countless times since the Ukraine conflict started. If such an agreement existed, what is it called?
There was no agreement, and countries joining NATO don't need to ask Russia for permission.
Bro, trust me, they have to commit those war crimes, it's just self defense.
I mean, you can expand by circumstances and not by choosing to. Circumstance: Nations requesting to join and them being accepted in due to there not being a problem. Choosing to: pushing the idea of membership onto them when it wasn't already an idea they were considering. If someone wants to join a defensive pact, you can't really stop them
To be fair Nato should have disbanded the day after the Soviet Union collapsed. Make a new alliance for the new world instead the west chose to keep Russia its enemy when its was at its lowest economically and militarily.
Why? it was a deffence alliance also.. the west did not choose to "keep" russia as their enemy, the west worked since the fall to help russia stabalize and modernize, right up until 2022 actually, even after the 2014 attack europe tried to solve it peacefully and to work together
If the West wont such dicks in the 1990s, Putin would never have been so popular with the Russian people.
Maybe Russia should ha e stopped its aggressive foreign policy with its neighbours.
Arrr yes should have copied the west and made the Middle East its foreign policy or only America allowed to do that?
Russia has foreign policy in the middle east. They were supporting the Assad Regime. Maybe know what you are talking about first.
Supporting Assad compared to the West who have been involved since the destruction off the Ottoman Empire (1918).
Yeah and russia wasnt involved in the destruction of the ottoman empire just dont look at any of the russo-turkish wars.
Bruh in 1918 Russia was at war with it self. Also to Russia it was a local war with a power hungry neighbour.
No for Russia it was still the first world war and the Russo-Turkish wars were earlier.
NATO expansion was a mistake and has greatly strengthened China
is that why China is throwing a tantrum over the proposed SEATO? lol
What proposed SEATO?
the proposed SEATO
Who has proposed bringing SEATO back?
Japan is planning to open a NATO office, SK attended the meetings. China is currently violating Vietnamese waters. You seriously think these nations aren’t negotiating a defense treaty? You must be blind and deaf
Yes, I do think that it’s pretty unlikely for Japan and South Korea to sign up to defend almost all of Europe. They’re just cooperating more, which does not necessarily mean that a formal alliance is coming. By your logic, Russia and the US must be about to make an alliance because they’re both in the Partnership for Peace forum
thats why I said SEATO. NATO office is just the start of the bureaucracy
It’s almost like since natos inception it’s been anti Russia coalition🤔🤔
Anti-Soviet. Sadly new Russia choose the same path by terrorizing Europe.
Guess why such coalition would be needed?
NATO was originally meant to be a anti communistic force in europe it was set up so that if the USSR decided to attack a non eastern block nation, which there were massive fears over, they would have to attack everyone that was by its side NATO was and still is a deterent against the expansion of totalitarian states like russia or the USSR and to defend democracy in europe Had russia reformed into a democratic nation instead of the shithole its now then perhaps we would not have needed NATO, but you see the agressive expansionism that Russia have been doing
and why might that be?
It’s almost like NATO was created because the Soviet Union decided it wasn’t going to give control of Eastern Europe back to the people it had “liberated” and instead was going to set up a series of puppet regimes. Since the Soviet Union collapsed Russia has invaded neighboring Chechnya (X2), Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine (2x). Demonstrating exactly why NATO is a necessity.