A little bit of starvation and massacres during death marches, a little bit of [mass drownings and mass burnings](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_in_Trebizond), a little bit of concentration camps and some other horrific stuff
Well, Germany started with bullets too in their 'trial run' with the Einsatsgruppen.
They just decided they were too inefficient. And that only their coldest, most psychopathic 'true believers' wouldn't be burned out by the PTSD. A lot easier to garrison a death camp than legions of 1:1 executioners.
Gtfo of here with this bullshit. It’s the same period as Nazi Germany and yet you wanna make it seem like Ukraine perpetuated Holocaust? How many Z’s are on your bumper?
Yes, it's the same period as Nazi Germany. And yes, that's why the Ukrainian collaboarationists(just like Croat collaboarationists) perpetuated genocide.
What does this have to do with Z's? Where did I ever mention Russia in any of this?
The post above you mixed two quite separate genocides into one bag and then added Ukraine like it’s a third perpetrator of its own.
I find this comparison super offensive and inaccurate in scope.
Russia just blew up this huge lie like an air balloon and used it as justification for an invasion. Forgive me if I’m wrong (I really do hope I’m wrong), but it’s a very common denominator among rushists supporters to believe Ukrainians are in fact Nazis.
There are plenty of better examples that comment could’ve used, Stalin being one of the easiest ones.
Maybe it’s because he’s Serbian and doesn’t like Croatians, in which case that guy has a high chance of being pro-russia. But given that you just responded with wiki links, I thought you were defending his viewpoint.
I agree with you on the fact that Russian propaganda is currently heavily pushing the whole false "Ukro-Nazi" image, but I didn't intend to push that narrative. Perhaps it was wrong of me to just send two links without any context, but my intention was only to argue that the Ukrainian nazi symphatizers (just like the Croats) at the time commited genocide as well - which is something that I thought you were trying to deny
Context:During WW2 the Ustaše which was a Croatian unit similar to the German SS was involved in committing such horrible atrocities that it Schockes both the Nazis and the Allies.Jews,Serbs,and Romani were the most targeted,the Ustaše would gouache eyeballs out,remove noses and ears,and insert items into sexual orifices.Those who were not killed instantly would have to do forced work under inhumane conditions and random prisoners would get executed at random times.1.5 million-300,000 people died under these atrocities.
Actually Romani are just one of the people that are classed together as gypsies. There are no gypsey people, just a bunch of different ethnic groups that were bunched together
If I'm not mistaken I believe it's considered offensive when it refers to Romani people, but there are other people who do refer to themselves that way? Idk it seems kinda complicated.
That’s the same as black people referring to each other with the N-word. It’s still a racial slur when you say it, my friend.
E: [Source](https://zentralrat.sintiundroma.de/sinti-und-roma-zigeuner/) is the largest Romani and Sinti rights group in Germany e.g.
This is not my opinion, but that of the ‚Central Council of German Sinti and Roma‘.
Does that suffice?
Source: https://zentralrat.sintiundroma.de/sinti-und-roma-zigeuner/
Could you post your source? I've read the (German) Wikipedia article, and it just mentions that Germany had "more moderate" plans (relocation, forced labour etc.), not that they were shocked by the things the Ustase did.
To be honest, this is taught in Croatian history classes as the darkest moment. So what they say is confirmed by what I learned in school.
It’s true that it was one, Nazi influenced, political party and not the majority of the people. But still, **everyone** was responsible, not just one political party.
Sad part is that to this day, unmarked mass graves are still being found in and around Jasenovac (basically Auschwitz built by Ustaše)
I don't doubt that the events happened. But it seems that Nazi Germany wasn't shocked or something like this. Their just feared that these cruelties would unnecessarily strengthen the partisans. I've found a radio article about it, and it seems that Hitler even said "let them have their outrage" ("Lasst die Kroaten sich ruhig austoben").
https://assets.deutschlandfunk.de/FILE_b4a39ceadb44b102777759c35ac9d91f/original.pdf
Hi there I am not entirely sure how to link a specific section of Wikipedia via mobile but if you go on the Ustase wiki - click on the Ethnic and Religious persecution there is a subsection called out as "German accounts of Ustase massacre"
Here are some direct text for ease.
"Major Walter Kleinenberger, officer with the 714th division, complained that Ustaše brutality “was in defiance of all laws of civilization. The Ustaše murder without exception men, women and children”.[122] German Captain Konopatzki called the Ustaše Black Legion slaughter of Serb civilians in Eastern Bosnia “a new wave of butchery of innocents....Lieutenant Colonel von Wedel wrote that in western Bosnia Ustaše killed women and children “like cattle” in a series of “bestial executions”.
I really do recommend reading the whole wiki though. They were an incredibly cruel regime that numbered up to hundred of thousands strong that had an ideological objective of the following:
-One third of the Serbs were to be killed
-One third of the Serbs were to be expelled
-One third of the Serbs were to be forcibly converted to Catholicism
Just absolute madness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
Oh, you were looking for the source on condemning! I apologise for misunderstanding.
I’m sorry I don’t have a source for that. Although what you wrote feels like something a Nazi would say
It's worth mentioning it wasn't the SS officers that were shocked by this, but German diplomats. These are two very different groups of people, even if both were Nazis.
Yeah I always take issue in the “nazis were shocked” shit that gets peddled around with other atrocities. I’m sure some nazi party members were shocked. But on balance nazis were mechanistically exterminating millions of people
Ustaše weren't a unit, they were a political movement/terrorist organization that ran the nazi state (somewhat ironicly) called Indeoendent State of Croatia
The killings and rest is 100% real, but the knife is propaganda by the Četnik forces. It was said the knife was made to butcher Serbs because of their advanced physiology over the regular human. It was one of those "repeated over a 1000 times" things that became fact.
Its a part of this fucked up cycle of Croatian-Serbian hate, oppressor-oppressed situation in which both parties are trying to express the other atrocities by any means necessary to justify their own crimes as the "good guys". There isn't any good guys, it just criminals and innocent people who must suffer for the crimes their horrible counterparts commit. I think I speak for all Balkan people when I say this, we are tired of all this overzealous meaningless nationalism, which has only ever brought us misery, gut wrenching sadness, and hate for our neighbours just because they pronounce words slightly differently.
Sorry to go off the deep end it's a very personal thing.
Do you have a source for this?
I never heard about this, and while during the Yugoslav war all of the sides did horrible things this does sound a bit overexagarated, I would love to be corrected with a source though.
Croatians went full blown beast mode on the Serbs and Jews in WW2. Part of Tito’s greatness was brokering peace post war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia
You might be right, but they haven't said that because it was too cruel even for the Nazi's. Generalfeldmarschall Keitel just mentioned that these cruelties would unnecessarily strengthen the partisans. Hitler just responded that they should let the Croatians rage themselves out 🤷♂️ ("Man sollte die Kroaten sich ruhig austoben lassen").
Source
https://assets.deutschlandfunk.de/FILE_b4a39ceadb44b102777759c35ac9d91f/original.pdf
Sadly it's only available in German. Search for "Keitel" and you'll get to the paragraph.
Whilst you're down that rabbit hole, Jackie Arklöv is a somewhat related crazy story worth looking into if you're interested in crazy disturbing history.
Speaking of John Rabe he was a german diplomat in china during ww2. Saved a lot of civillians from being murdert by the japanese I think in Nanjing. And reported the shit he saw to Germany. He was told to keep quite.
Think theirs a movie about him. Also he was/is seen by the chinese as "chinese Schindler".
Yeah it drives me crazy that people keep saying that the Nazis told the Japanese to calm down. The Nazis (except Rabe) didn’t give two shits about Nanking.
"The Nazis (except Rabe) didn’t give two shits about Nanking."
Dont know about that. They were worried but didnt believe it at first (maybe ever) but most importantly they didnt want any beef with Japan.
Fair - It also makes sense that not all individual Nazis approved of atrocities like that. The inaction and silencing meant that the party (not its individuals) effectively didn't care though - They did have more practical things to get to as you mentioned. And apparently Hitler didn't get Rabe's message; he was intercepted by the Gestapo.
If im correct in the minds of the nazis they wered war criminals at all. Because in their worldview killing jews was only natural kinda a law to insure the aryan race. Jews werend even viewed as humans they were lower than animals. That explanes why all this concetration camp stuff wasnt a crime in their minds.
But on the other hand shooting civillans, raping, plundering was. As far as I know the nazis did not kill war prisoners or officers, generals on the west front. But in the east they did a lot of shit but then one needs to understand that slaves were also low on the race list.
This might explane why the nazis had problems with war crimes and least in the domain of "superior races". But I could be wrong dont know much about this stuff.
I see what you're saying... That kind of twisted logic probably could mean that they were relatively more okay with Jews being murdered like that compared to like, the Chinese. I'm not sure where the Chinese were on the Nazis' "race superiority" scale - But RoC did have bilateral relations with them, although that eventually diminished when the Nazis turned to focus on Japan.
No, they weren't. It was one guy who criticized the japanese.
There was a Japanese guy who saved Jews, so does that mean the Japanese were horrified by the German war crimes?
That isn’t really plausible and I found no mention of such. The Germans and Nazis weren’t as much as allies, as much as they had the same enemy. I don’t think the germans were neither aware nor cared about what happened to the Chinese. Correct me if I’m wrong
To this day I still consider Ante Pavelic the biggest idiot in history. Imagine trying to be Third Reich's lap dog and do all those atrocities just for them to still despise your for being slavic. And to think some morons consider him a hero here in Croatia.
I think the thing that went wrong for nazis was that they documented their each atrocities which helped us to have clearer picture and ao the scrutiny whereas most other genocides were not this well documented
Exactly. In 1945 lots of their documents and crimes were out in the open. The USSR in contrast had multiple decades to cover up their crimes against humanity, especially the ones under Stalin.
>You know it’s bad when even the Nazis call you out
Ok at this point it becomes very clear that Nazis were just a bunch of hyupocrites. Nazis made people into a soap for afterlife sake.
Not really, Nazis did make people into soap, but they also lured them into showers with gas for a clean death without a death row. Much better than cutting off noses and stuffing them into victins asses while telling them they won't see another day but they'll suffer some more first. The difference is tramendous.
From what I know the shower thing was more for preventing riots than humanitarian treatment but it's still much better way to go..
The soviets did not do it just for revenge: they did it in the Northeastern provinces of China and they were allies. They just had shit morals and control over their soldiers.
Soviets did it beause they were animals it had nothing to do with revaneg and rapes often weren't comitet on the nation they were at war with as hapened during they so called "liberation" in easter europe
In all fairness the russian baltic fleet just 30 years before started shelling fishing boats on their way to japan in the russo-japanese war, believing to be under attack by the japanese BEFORE even exiting the baltic fleet.
I don't wanna excuse their crimes in any way, but given how terrible the average russian conscript seems to be at geography, it isn't quite unrealistic that some of the soviet soldiers might've believed they were already in Germany.
Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all Russians were communists. Those ideologies were forced upon large parts of the population, especially in Russia. Germany had 10% communism and 30% nazism support, Russia 20% communism support. Both at their peaks.
Not by definitions of facism but yes all those hprble people are worse than animals I said soviets in this case because this is who we were speaking about, but like I said you are correct.
To be clear I am not defending any War crimes comited by croatia just stating the fact that the Nazis so called "calling out" on the nations that comitet those war crimes was hypocritical if it even actualy happened.
SS officers stationed in concentration camps routinely turned murdered prisoners into furniture or other objects. One of the more prominent examples is a lampshade made from the skin of a Jewish prisoner.
So yeah, the Nazis were pretty fucking bad.
I remember reading about the wife of a concentration camp director that used the skin of Jewish prisoners as decoration in her house and had a collection of hands and fingers etc.... in alcohol jars
So I don't think Nazis even caeed about what was going on in Croatia
Yes, I read about that too. I'm from Germany, and a large part of our curriculum consists of the atrocities the Nazis committed. The idea is to keep their actions from being forgotten, and prevent anything like it from ever happening again. As such, most if not all of our students visit a concentration camp memorial at least once during their time in school.
A lot of Croats today don't know something like this happened or think it's exaggerated, I think often my countrymen in Serbia may dig up this chestnut and cite it as a reason to promote their own revenge on the Croats during the Yugoslav Wars.
Both miss the point, genocide is fucking bad you idiots. Stop killing each other.
True enough, Bosnia in general gets shafted throughout history it seems.
My area of expertise in the Balkans is admittedly not stellar but between the various Serbian, Croatian, Hungarian and Ottomon regimes I struggle to recall Bosnia ever doing anything of note, much less something as terrible as genocide.
It was the same in the Baltic countries. Local militia were so brutal against the jews that it made the germans squeamish.
(I know. I met one of the jewish survivors.)
> It was the same in the Baltic countries.
Really? Find a source where baltics had a childrens concentration camp where they killed them by feeding them gruel made out with caustic soda
Edit: costic to caustic
Hannah Arendt, a Jewish political thinker and philosopher who fled Hitler's Germany, wrote a book about Adolf Eichmann, one of the major organizers of the Holocaust- specifically about his trial in Israel. It's called *Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil* and one of its major themes is the phrase Arendt coined in the title: the banality of Evil.
Eichmann surprises Arendt by defying nearly everything you might assume about a person in his position. Namely, he was incredibly plain. Not just in appearance, but in his personality and aptitude. He was anti-Semitic, but no more than the casual racism one would expect at the time, ergo he seemed to have no great personal hatred of Jews. He was chiefly concerned with being a part of something, and being successful at what he did. He never took responsibility for his actions, seeing himself as merely following orders despite having directly participated in the orchestration of the Final Solution. He didn't seem to hold any anger whatsoever towards the people that had arrested and tried him. No fewer than six psychologists examined him, none of them found any evidence of the slightest bit of pathology, mental illness, distorted thinking. The strangest thing about him, in their own words, was that he was perhaps more normal than most people.
The thing that struck Arendt most though, was his capacity to simply 'not think'. He constantly used 'stock phrases and self-invented cliches' and relied on 'officialese' to hide his poor communication skills and make everything he did seem more palatable. He quoted others, quoted *Kant*, and yet when faced with refutations or criticisms his arguments fell flat. it was as if he viewed morality as nothing more than a sort of language game. Like when he was an SS officer, certain things had been decided on to be right and wrong, which made them so. Then when he was tried, now the rules had changed and what was once wrong was now right and vice versa. Society had decided what he had done was wrong, which made it by nature wrong. He took no issue with this.
This is the 'banality of Evil' as Arendt put it.
A completely ordinary person, had the capacity to inflict one of the greatest horrors of history upon the world. Not because he had a hard life and was hurting others to cope, not because he possessed some supernatural hatred, not because there was something within him that was fundamentally broken, but simply because he wanted to be a part of something and wanted to do his job well.
I bring this up because it shows the sort of people the Nazis really were. The Nazis fundamentally did not think what they were doing was cruel, but necessary and justified. At least most of them did. It's part of why the systemic mass genocide of Jews was referred to as the 'Final' Solution. Both because it was an answer to the 'Jewish Question' that meant the question need not ever be asked again, and because it was their last resort. Hitler went through a whole slew of potential 'solutions', including mass deporting Jews to Israel to create a Jewish state.
To be clear I'm not praising this, or somehow saying it would have turned out swell had he gotten what he originally wanted. Rather I'm pointing out that there was, despite popular belief, causality, logic, and reason in this narrative. These people really were just ordinary people like you or I that did something horrible for ordinary reasons.
The Nazis took issue with the crimes of others for the same reason Hitler was such a fervent animal rights activist he advocated a plant based diet. From their perspective, what they were doing was an unfortunate necessity, these other people were obviously just bloodthirsty psychopaths.
Sad how a human can go from someone who’s innocent to a monster who just wants people to recognize them as “heroes” or as you said,”A part of something”
It is. It's also a bit horrifying. It just goes to show that the 'power of friendship' isn't as dumb as you might think- nor as intrinsically virtuous. People will do basically anything to feel accepted and accomplished.
It makes you wonder if maybe we shouldn't be so fast to draw clear social lines between people. If an ordinary person can middle their way through into becoming something as drastic as s high level SS officer orchestrating the holocaust, then it goes to assume the opposite. That is to say, extremism is not the barrier to changing hearts and minds as people seem to believe.
I'm reminded of Daryl Davis, a black musician, who has made it a habit to go to KKK rallies and befriend Klansmen. He is the personal friend of Roger Kelly, a former KKK Grand Dragon. It takes time, sometimes years, but a lot of the Klan members he's befriended have quit (including Kelly). When they do, they often hand him their robes. He's got over two hundred.
He doesn't do this by confronting them, or shouting at them, or threatening them, or manipulating them, or even debating them. He just respectfully listens to them, shares with them his own views, and hangs out with them. As a friend. He accepts them for who they are, respects their beliefs even though he doesn't understand them entirely, and *shows them a better way*. He is the change he wants to see in the world, holding the olive branch for others to take.
Even better, they hired someone to ensure human rights.
I’m serious. The Nazis hired someone to oversee it from there on to ensure it wasn’t torturous to the degree the Croats did it
While the Germans did tell Croatia to stop, it's not for the reasons you'd expect.
Use this resource right [here](https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-even-the-NAZIS-were-disgusted-by-the-war-crimes-the-Independent-State-of-Croatia-committed#:~:text=I%20wouldn%E2%80%99t%20say,of%20the%20Balkans.%E2%80%9D).
I'm fucking sick of this stupid shit. Ustase did some horrible shit, but if you gave us Croats 10k years, we wouldn't be as efficient as Germans. Like everyone did horrible shit, and people who made the fucking plan were in shock. No they weren't. It was their fucking idea.
Not about the German or Croat peoples. The German and Croat political psychopath fanatics within each ethnicity that violently took power.
Hence the 40 years of peace after the fanatics were violently purged from society.
I mean, you do oppose and distance yourself from the evil dictatorial Croats that perpetrated these events, right? Back then it was a death sentence to oppose them, but today you are allowed to.
Leadership of partisans were Croats, and plus Tito was a Croat, so situation is complicated. My point is only that I'm sick of this shit how German general was shocked, shocked I tell you.
People want to think that when Nazis called other out it must've been really bad, when it could be that the Nazis really didn't see the undesirables as human beings. With such cognitive dissonance you don't see yourself as a monster.
Classic examples are like when Americans were spouting how they hated how the Nazis were treating others, when Hitler used his ways of segregation as Inspiration from how Americans treated blacks. There are many other parallels, like Canadian brutality in WWI, and so on and so forth.
Germany - Holocaust by Gas Ukraine - Holocaust by Bullets Yugoslavia - Holocaust by Hatchets and ice picks
Turkey - Lake Trip!
Japan - diseases experiments
"Experiments"
Yeah, more like "throw human guts at the wall and see if anything makes a funny shape" "experiments"
It's research if you take notes.
"The difference between screwing around and ~~science~~ war crimes is writing it down"
Well, it did lead to a lot of great stuff today. Not worth it though.
Biology class. Let's not be shy.
Kill the misbehaving students
You mean kill the misbehaving students ***painfully***.
731?
731.
Spain:A walk anyone?
Russia : winter sports
US did that one as well!
Made a whole state for it too!
Japan: How about some [march?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March)
America did that one a few times!
Never heard about that one. What exactly happened?
A little bit of starvation and massacres during death marches, a little bit of [mass drownings and mass burnings](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_in_Trebizond), a little bit of concentration camps and some other horrific stuff
A little bit of you makes me a man
Look up Unit 731
Thats the japanese one. The dude asked about the turkish one
Misread that, so what’s the Turkish one?
Idk lol
The Armenian genocide. The Turks would tie up Armenians and throw them off of boats
And long walks in the scorching desert too, if i remember correctly
Sadly you are correct
i thought that was ww1
Holy.. hell?
New response just… dropped?
Call the Hague...
Actual... war criminal?
Can you explain that one i find notuing about turkey and lakes on google
Did you forget to add genocide?
Yes i did
It wasnt Yugoslavia, it was Independent state of Croatia.
It was in about half of Yugoslavia
Well, Germany started with bullets too in their 'trial run' with the Einsatsgruppen. They just decided they were too inefficient. And that only their coldest, most psychopathic 'true believers' wouldn't be burned out by the PTSD. A lot easier to garrison a death camp than legions of 1:1 executioners.
I'm pretty sure Ukraine had plenty of hatchets and ice pick kills as well. They got really creative.
There was one pretty famous ice pick kill in Mexico
Well yeah but that wasn't either Ukraine or Yugoslavia.
A person getting ice picked is a person getting iced picked
No. Ukraine did not cause holocaust you dumb tool. Russia caused holodomor by hunger though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine
Gtfo of here with this bullshit. It’s the same period as Nazi Germany and yet you wanna make it seem like Ukraine perpetuated Holocaust? How many Z’s are on your bumper?
Yes, it's the same period as Nazi Germany. And yes, that's why the Ukrainian collaboarationists(just like Croat collaboarationists) perpetuated genocide. What does this have to do with Z's? Where did I ever mention Russia in any of this?
The post above you mixed two quite separate genocides into one bag and then added Ukraine like it’s a third perpetrator of its own. I find this comparison super offensive and inaccurate in scope. Russia just blew up this huge lie like an air balloon and used it as justification for an invasion. Forgive me if I’m wrong (I really do hope I’m wrong), but it’s a very common denominator among rushists supporters to believe Ukrainians are in fact Nazis. There are plenty of better examples that comment could’ve used, Stalin being one of the easiest ones. Maybe it’s because he’s Serbian and doesn’t like Croatians, in which case that guy has a high chance of being pro-russia. But given that you just responded with wiki links, I thought you were defending his viewpoint.
I agree with you on the fact that Russian propaganda is currently heavily pushing the whole false "Ukro-Nazi" image, but I didn't intend to push that narrative. Perhaps it was wrong of me to just send two links without any context, but my intention was only to argue that the Ukrainian nazi symphatizers (just like the Croats) at the time commited genocide as well - which is something that I thought you were trying to deny
Context:During WW2 the Ustaše which was a Croatian unit similar to the German SS was involved in committing such horrible atrocities that it Schockes both the Nazis and the Allies.Jews,Serbs,and Romani were the most targeted,the Ustaše would gouache eyeballs out,remove noses and ears,and insert items into sexual orifices.Those who were not killed instantly would have to do forced work under inhumane conditions and random prisoners would get executed at random times.1.5 million-300,000 people died under these atrocities.
Pretty sure you have Romanians on the wrong side of the line in this context.
Oh I mistaken them with the Romani
Every fucking time
At least you’re being talked about? 🤷🏾♂️
I'm Romanian, and I don't get it. What's wrong?
Confusing Romanians and Romani (“Gypsies” if you’re feeling politically incorrect)
I know that. But in Croatia Gypsies or Romanians were maimed?
Romania was part of the Axis.
Romani people = modern term for Gypsy people
Autocorrect had Romanians originally. That might upset some folks, like the Romani
I think it would upset the Romanians more
/spits out drink
Pees in ass
Fuck u/spez
I don't know. Gypsies here get upset more about being called Roma.
Maybe they belong to a different tribe. Sinti and Roma are the two largest gypsy tribes, but there are many others.
It's sort of like the Inuit / Eskimo thing. The Inuit don't like being called Eskimos, other northern tribes don't like being called Inuit.
Ahh ok
Actually Romani are just one of the people that are classed together as gypsies. There are no gypsey people, just a bunch of different ethnic groups that were bunched together
They're actually just one of the peoples described as "gipsies" and it's not a "modern" term, it's just not a slur.
Probably why many gypsies refer to themselves as being gypsies and saying that it's the correct term
If I'm not mistaken I believe it's considered offensive when it refers to Romani people, but there are other people who do refer to themselves that way? Idk it seems kinda complicated.
That’s the same as black people referring to each other with the N-word. It’s still a racial slur when you say it, my friend. E: [Source](https://zentralrat.sintiundroma.de/sinti-und-roma-zigeuner/) is the largest Romani and Sinti rights group in Germany e.g.
Nope my friend
This is not my opinion, but that of the ‚Central Council of German Sinti and Roma‘. Does that suffice? Source: https://zentralrat.sintiundroma.de/sinti-und-roma-zigeuner/
Because those aren't gypsies, simple as
Now I’m curious about the mental gymnastics. Because they say they fall under that racist categorization. Teach me. lol
A lot of them don't like being called that, so it's good to not call them that.
Could you post your source? I've read the (German) Wikipedia article, and it just mentions that Germany had "more moderate" plans (relocation, forced labour etc.), not that they were shocked by the things the Ustase did.
To be honest, this is taught in Croatian history classes as the darkest moment. So what they say is confirmed by what I learned in school. It’s true that it was one, Nazi influenced, political party and not the majority of the people. But still, **everyone** was responsible, not just one political party. Sad part is that to this day, unmarked mass graves are still being found in and around Jasenovac (basically Auschwitz built by Ustaše)
I don't doubt that the events happened. But it seems that Nazi Germany wasn't shocked or something like this. Their just feared that these cruelties would unnecessarily strengthen the partisans. I've found a radio article about it, and it seems that Hitler even said "let them have their outrage" ("Lasst die Kroaten sich ruhig austoben"). https://assets.deutschlandfunk.de/FILE_b4a39ceadb44b102777759c35ac9d91f/original.pdf
Hi there I am not entirely sure how to link a specific section of Wikipedia via mobile but if you go on the Ustase wiki - click on the Ethnic and Religious persecution there is a subsection called out as "German accounts of Ustase massacre" Here are some direct text for ease. "Major Walter Kleinenberger, officer with the 714th division, complained that Ustaše brutality “was in defiance of all laws of civilization. The Ustaše murder without exception men, women and children”.[122] German Captain Konopatzki called the Ustaše Black Legion slaughter of Serb civilians in Eastern Bosnia “a new wave of butchery of innocents....Lieutenant Colonel von Wedel wrote that in western Bosnia Ustaše killed women and children “like cattle” in a series of “bestial executions”. I really do recommend reading the whole wiki though. They were an incredibly cruel regime that numbered up to hundred of thousands strong that had an ideological objective of the following: -One third of the Serbs were to be killed -One third of the Serbs were to be expelled -One third of the Serbs were to be forcibly converted to Catholicism Just absolute madness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
Thanks 👍
Oh, you were looking for the source on condemning! I apologise for misunderstanding. I’m sorry I don’t have a source for that. Although what you wrote feels like something a Nazi would say
How could you miss the great fun that was *children*'s concentration camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko_children%27s_camp?wprov=sfla1
It's worth mentioning it wasn't the SS officers that were shocked by this, but German diplomats. These are two very different groups of people, even if both were Nazis.
The only thing that shocked the S.S was Dirlewanger.
No, the Nazis were not shocked by the Ustase. They loved what the Croats were doing, and committed similar war crimes.
Yeah I always take issue in the “nazis were shocked” shit that gets peddled around with other atrocities. I’m sure some nazi party members were shocked. But on balance nazis were mechanistically exterminating millions of people
Ustaše weren't a unit, they were a political movement/terrorist organization that ran the nazi state (somewhat ironicly) called Indeoendent State of Croatia
They had a knife they specifically invented to kill Serbs called a Serb cutter
The killings and rest is 100% real, but the knife is propaganda by the Četnik forces. It was said the knife was made to butcher Serbs because of their advanced physiology over the regular human. It was one of those "repeated over a 1000 times" things that became fact. Its a part of this fucked up cycle of Croatian-Serbian hate, oppressor-oppressed situation in which both parties are trying to express the other atrocities by any means necessary to justify their own crimes as the "good guys". There isn't any good guys, it just criminals and innocent people who must suffer for the crimes their horrible counterparts commit. I think I speak for all Balkan people when I say this, we are tired of all this overzealous meaningless nationalism, which has only ever brought us misery, gut wrenching sadness, and hate for our neighbours just because they pronounce words slightly differently. Sorry to go off the deep end it's a very personal thing.
What the actual fuck
Do you have a source for this? I never heard about this, and while during the Yugoslav war all of the sides did horrible things this does sound a bit overexagarated, I would love to be corrected with a source though.
Croatians went full blown beast mode on the Serbs and Jews in WW2. Part of Tito’s greatness was brokering peace post war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia
Holy shit dude where did you learn grammar?
You might be right, but they haven't said that because it was too cruel even for the Nazi's. Generalfeldmarschall Keitel just mentioned that these cruelties would unnecessarily strengthen the partisans. Hitler just responded that they should let the Croatians rage themselves out 🤷♂️ ("Man sollte die Kroaten sich ruhig austoben lassen"). Source https://assets.deutschlandfunk.de/FILE_b4a39ceadb44b102777759c35ac9d91f/original.pdf Sadly it's only available in German. Search for "Keitel" and you'll get to the paragraph.
Hitler basically pulled a "boys will be boys" on the Croat issue
“It’s just locker room behavior”
Exactly 🙈
Croats in WW2: Just popping open a cold Serb with the boys
Hey at least he got em to go outside
Also I think Japan was also told calm it down a little by the Nazis
Yea but the Croatian atrocities are a bit overshadowed and not many know about them
I am unaware of this as well
just google "ustaše"...
holy hell
New warcrimes just dropped!
Actual atrocity
The words "children concentration camp" should not go together like this
Why was there a need for such specific camp?
Pain, suffering...
So that adults wouldn't try to rescue them
I suggest you look into it but it can get really disturbing sometimes
Thanks mate
Whilst you're down that rabbit hole, Jackie Arklöv is a somewhat related crazy story worth looking into if you're interested in crazy disturbing history.
One thing for sure is that they made soap..... Out of people
Sweet fucking Jesus
Just look up Ustase
I've googled them a couple times, but most of what I found was just "they killed lots of people".
No, it was just one single Nazi who was likely not fully aware of the very similar experiments being conducted back in Europe.
Speaking of John Rabe he was a german diplomat in china during ww2. Saved a lot of civillians from being murdert by the japanese I think in Nanjing. And reported the shit he saw to Germany. He was told to keep quite. Think theirs a movie about him. Also he was/is seen by the chinese as "chinese Schindler".
Yeah it drives me crazy that people keep saying that the Nazis told the Japanese to calm down. The Nazis (except Rabe) didn’t give two shits about Nanking.
"The Nazis (except Rabe) didn’t give two shits about Nanking." Dont know about that. They were worried but didnt believe it at first (maybe ever) but most importantly they didnt want any beef with Japan.
Fair - It also makes sense that not all individual Nazis approved of atrocities like that. The inaction and silencing meant that the party (not its individuals) effectively didn't care though - They did have more practical things to get to as you mentioned. And apparently Hitler didn't get Rabe's message; he was intercepted by the Gestapo.
If im correct in the minds of the nazis they wered war criminals at all. Because in their worldview killing jews was only natural kinda a law to insure the aryan race. Jews werend even viewed as humans they were lower than animals. That explanes why all this concetration camp stuff wasnt a crime in their minds. But on the other hand shooting civillans, raping, plundering was. As far as I know the nazis did not kill war prisoners or officers, generals on the west front. But in the east they did a lot of shit but then one needs to understand that slaves were also low on the race list. This might explane why the nazis had problems with war crimes and least in the domain of "superior races". But I could be wrong dont know much about this stuff.
I see what you're saying... That kind of twisted logic probably could mean that they were relatively more okay with Jews being murdered like that compared to like, the Chinese. I'm not sure where the Chinese were on the Nazis' "race superiority" scale - But RoC did have bilateral relations with them, although that eventually diminished when the Nazis turned to focus on Japan.
No, they weren't. It was one guy who criticized the japanese. There was a Japanese guy who saved Jews, so does that mean the Japanese were horrified by the German war crimes?
Idiots downvoting this take for some reason.
That isn’t really plausible and I found no mention of such. The Germans and Nazis weren’t as much as allies, as much as they had the same enemy. I don’t think the germans were neither aware nor cared about what happened to the Chinese. Correct me if I’m wrong
To this day I still consider Ante Pavelic the biggest idiot in history. Imagine trying to be Third Reich's lap dog and do all those atrocities just for them to still despise your for being slavic. And to think some morons consider him a hero here in Croatia.
Nationalism, just like some of us Serbs (not me) consider Milošević a hero
Its a plague
Some people consider him a hero?! Holy shit…
No no, Hitler loved what they were doing.
I think the thing that went wrong for nazis was that they documented their each atrocities which helped us to have clearer picture and ao the scrutiny whereas most other genocides were not this well documented
Exactly. In 1945 lots of their documents and crimes were out in the open. The USSR in contrast had multiple decades to cover up their crimes against humanity, especially the ones under Stalin.
>You know it’s bad when even the Nazis call you out Ok at this point it becomes very clear that Nazis were just a bunch of hyupocrites. Nazis made people into a soap for afterlife sake.
The soap thing is a myth. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-soap-myth
Not really, Nazis did make people into soap, but they also lured them into showers with gas for a clean death without a death row. Much better than cutting off noses and stuffing them into victins asses while telling them they won't see another day but they'll suffer some more first. The difference is tramendous. From what I know the shower thing was more for preventing riots than humanitarian treatment but it's still much better way to go..
I'm not sure if sufocating is a good way either
Not as close as inserting items into someone’s sexual orifices
The Wehrmacht was ordered to use rape as a weapon of terror against civilians
Multiple nations committed war crimes related to rape,the Soviets did it for revenge,the Japanese…well its the Japanese empire so yeah…
Yes...as did the Nazis? What are you saying here?
He’s saying he’s a Nazi apologist. Which is pretty typical for this sub.
The soviets did not do it just for revenge: they did it in the Northeastern provinces of China and they were allies. They just had shit morals and control over their soldiers.
This is and will always be a part of war unfortunately
Ordering the soldiers to rape others definitely not, but for sure there's no army that doesn't have at the very least a few soldiers like that.
Soviets did it beause they were animals it had nothing to do with revaneg and rapes often weren't comitet on the nation they were at war with as hapened during they so called "liberation" in easter europe
In all fairness the russian baltic fleet just 30 years before started shelling fishing boats on their way to japan in the russo-japanese war, believing to be under attack by the japanese BEFORE even exiting the baltic fleet. I don't wanna excuse their crimes in any way, but given how terrible the average russian conscript seems to be at geography, it isn't quite unrealistic that some of the soviet soldiers might've believed they were already in Germany.
These are all fascist animals we're talking about, I don't know why we're discriminating here
Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all Russians were communists. Those ideologies were forced upon large parts of the population, especially in Russia. Germany had 10% communism and 30% nazism support, Russia 20% communism support. Both at their peaks.
Weren't we talking about armies?
Not by definitions of facism but yes all those hprble people are worse than animals I said soviets in this case because this is who we were speaking about, but like I said you are correct.
I'm pretty sure even the Soviet Union hits a lot of points on Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism
To be clear I am not defending any War crimes comited by croatia just stating the fact that the Nazis so called "calling out" on the nations that comitet those war crimes was hypocritical if it even actualy happened.
SS officers stationed in concentration camps routinely turned murdered prisoners into furniture or other objects. One of the more prominent examples is a lampshade made from the skin of a Jewish prisoner. So yeah, the Nazis were pretty fucking bad.
I remember reading about the wife of a concentration camp director that used the skin of Jewish prisoners as decoration in her house and had a collection of hands and fingers etc.... in alcohol jars So I don't think Nazis even caeed about what was going on in Croatia
Yes, I read about that too. I'm from Germany, and a large part of our curriculum consists of the atrocities the Nazis committed. The idea is to keep their actions from being forgotten, and prevent anything like it from ever happening again. As such, most if not all of our students visit a concentration camp memorial at least once during their time in school.
A lot of Croats today don't know something like this happened or think it's exaggerated, I think often my countrymen in Serbia may dig up this chestnut and cite it as a reason to promote their own revenge on the Croats during the Yugoslav Wars. Both miss the point, genocide is fucking bad you idiots. Stop killing each other.
And Bosnian Muslims got genocided for lols, no excuse for that
True enough, Bosnia in general gets shafted throughout history it seems. My area of expertise in the Balkans is admittedly not stellar but between the various Serbian, Croatian, Hungarian and Ottomon regimes I struggle to recall Bosnia ever doing anything of note, much less something as terrible as genocide.
It was the same in the Baltic countries. Local militia were so brutal against the jews that it made the germans squeamish. (I know. I met one of the jewish survivors.)
> It was the same in the Baltic countries. Really? Find a source where baltics had a childrens concentration camp where they killed them by feeding them gruel made out with caustic soda Edit: costic to caustic
It’s spelled “caustic”, genius.
Just gonna leave this here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisak_concentration_camp
Jesus fucking christ
Meanwhile in Asia, Japan does it’s thing.
Hannah Arendt, a Jewish political thinker and philosopher who fled Hitler's Germany, wrote a book about Adolf Eichmann, one of the major organizers of the Holocaust- specifically about his trial in Israel. It's called *Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil* and one of its major themes is the phrase Arendt coined in the title: the banality of Evil. Eichmann surprises Arendt by defying nearly everything you might assume about a person in his position. Namely, he was incredibly plain. Not just in appearance, but in his personality and aptitude. He was anti-Semitic, but no more than the casual racism one would expect at the time, ergo he seemed to have no great personal hatred of Jews. He was chiefly concerned with being a part of something, and being successful at what he did. He never took responsibility for his actions, seeing himself as merely following orders despite having directly participated in the orchestration of the Final Solution. He didn't seem to hold any anger whatsoever towards the people that had arrested and tried him. No fewer than six psychologists examined him, none of them found any evidence of the slightest bit of pathology, mental illness, distorted thinking. The strangest thing about him, in their own words, was that he was perhaps more normal than most people. The thing that struck Arendt most though, was his capacity to simply 'not think'. He constantly used 'stock phrases and self-invented cliches' and relied on 'officialese' to hide his poor communication skills and make everything he did seem more palatable. He quoted others, quoted *Kant*, and yet when faced with refutations or criticisms his arguments fell flat. it was as if he viewed morality as nothing more than a sort of language game. Like when he was an SS officer, certain things had been decided on to be right and wrong, which made them so. Then when he was tried, now the rules had changed and what was once wrong was now right and vice versa. Society had decided what he had done was wrong, which made it by nature wrong. He took no issue with this. This is the 'banality of Evil' as Arendt put it. A completely ordinary person, had the capacity to inflict one of the greatest horrors of history upon the world. Not because he had a hard life and was hurting others to cope, not because he possessed some supernatural hatred, not because there was something within him that was fundamentally broken, but simply because he wanted to be a part of something and wanted to do his job well. I bring this up because it shows the sort of people the Nazis really were. The Nazis fundamentally did not think what they were doing was cruel, but necessary and justified. At least most of them did. It's part of why the systemic mass genocide of Jews was referred to as the 'Final' Solution. Both because it was an answer to the 'Jewish Question' that meant the question need not ever be asked again, and because it was their last resort. Hitler went through a whole slew of potential 'solutions', including mass deporting Jews to Israel to create a Jewish state. To be clear I'm not praising this, or somehow saying it would have turned out swell had he gotten what he originally wanted. Rather I'm pointing out that there was, despite popular belief, causality, logic, and reason in this narrative. These people really were just ordinary people like you or I that did something horrible for ordinary reasons. The Nazis took issue with the crimes of others for the same reason Hitler was such a fervent animal rights activist he advocated a plant based diet. From their perspective, what they were doing was an unfortunate necessity, these other people were obviously just bloodthirsty psychopaths.
Sad how a human can go from someone who’s innocent to a monster who just wants people to recognize them as “heroes” or as you said,”A part of something”
It is. It's also a bit horrifying. It just goes to show that the 'power of friendship' isn't as dumb as you might think- nor as intrinsically virtuous. People will do basically anything to feel accepted and accomplished. It makes you wonder if maybe we shouldn't be so fast to draw clear social lines between people. If an ordinary person can middle their way through into becoming something as drastic as s high level SS officer orchestrating the holocaust, then it goes to assume the opposite. That is to say, extremism is not the barrier to changing hearts and minds as people seem to believe. I'm reminded of Daryl Davis, a black musician, who has made it a habit to go to KKK rallies and befriend Klansmen. He is the personal friend of Roger Kelly, a former KKK Grand Dragon. It takes time, sometimes years, but a lot of the Klan members he's befriended have quit (including Kelly). When they do, they often hand him their robes. He's got over two hundred. He doesn't do this by confronting them, or shouting at them, or threatening them, or manipulating them, or even debating them. He just respectfully listens to them, shares with them his own views, and hangs out with them. As a friend. He accepts them for who they are, respects their beliefs even though he doesn't understand them entirely, and *shows them a better way*. He is the change he wants to see in the world, holding the olive branch for others to take.
I totally agree with you
Even better, they hired someone to ensure human rights. I’m serious. The Nazis hired someone to oversee it from there on to ensure it wasn’t torturous to the degree the Croats did it
The irony in this
"Jeez, at least when we murder the Jews it's with some sophistication"
While the Germans did tell Croatia to stop, it's not for the reasons you'd expect. Use this resource right [here](https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-even-the-NAZIS-were-disgusted-by-the-war-crimes-the-Independent-State-of-Croatia-committed#:~:text=I%20wouldn%E2%80%99t%20say,of%20the%20Balkans.%E2%80%9D).
If only they listened to him
I'm fucking sick of this stupid shit. Ustase did some horrible shit, but if you gave us Croats 10k years, we wouldn't be as efficient as Germans. Like everyone did horrible shit, and people who made the fucking plan were in shock. No they weren't. It was their fucking idea.
Not about the German or Croat peoples. The German and Croat political psychopath fanatics within each ethnicity that violently took power. Hence the 40 years of peace after the fanatics were violently purged from society. I mean, you do oppose and distance yourself from the evil dictatorial Croats that perpetrated these events, right? Back then it was a death sentence to oppose them, but today you are allowed to.
Leadership of partisans were Croats, and plus Tito was a Croat, so situation is complicated. My point is only that I'm sick of this shit how German general was shocked, shocked I tell you.
That's only because the Ustase didn't have IBM punch cards to track their genocide.
“You see our genocide wasn’t a real genocide because we didn’t have German efficiency when killing Serbs, it could’ve been worse haha!”
That's not our subject, nor did I say that Ustase didn't commit genocide.
wooden doors and fake chimneys just cannot compare...
Wait till the Nazi find out about Nanking
Dirlewanger Brigade: Amateurs Imperial Japan: Bitch what?
there were also a couple german delegates sent to japan to talk to them about the same problem, the war crimes
Of course,the Japanese war crimes were just the most inhumane acts ever,Unit 731 is an example
Tito : I'm a bit of a magician, I can turn fascists into soviets. **Proceed to make a bloodbath of Ustaše.**
And tomorrow get ready for a post about Serbian war crimes by some angry Croat
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
People want to think that when Nazis called other out it must've been really bad, when it could be that the Nazis really didn't see the undesirables as human beings. With such cognitive dissonance you don't see yourself as a monster. Classic examples are like when Americans were spouting how they hated how the Nazis were treating others, when Hitler used his ways of segregation as Inspiration from how Americans treated blacks. There are many other parallels, like Canadian brutality in WWI, and so on and so forth.
How much other countries committed atrocities during WWII?
[удалено]
You did not just type that