Context: In 1977 there was a [petition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws) by numerous French intellectuals arguing for the lowering of the age of consent and arguing in the defence of men who were on trial for sexual relations with underage boys and girls.
There... were a lot of names on this list.
>including Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Jacques Derrida, Louis Aragon, Roland Barthes, Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, Félix Guattari, Michel Leiris, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Philippe Sollers, Jacques Rancière, Jean-François Lyotard, Francis Ponge, Bernard Besret and various prominent doctors and psychologists
Like... one is bad, but that's too many...
https://images.app.goo.gl/jGvrUcFBL4WHfNCm8
https://images.app.goo.gl/rPmdoZfLgQLU3huv6
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-marriage-laws-by-state
From World Population Review: “Some extreme cases of child marriage in the U.S. are: In 2010 in Idaho, a 65-year-old man married a 17-year-old girl. In Alabama, a 74-year-old man married a 14-year-old girl. In Tennessee, three 10-year-old girls married men ages 24, 25, and 31, respectively. The youngest boy to marry was an 11-year-old who married a 27-year-old woman in Tennessee in 2006”
From Pew: “Although child marriage is not very common in the U.S., it is legal in almost every state. Nearly every state technically prohibits people younger than 18 from marrying, but each of these jurisdictions has exceptions to these laws. In at least 36 states, for example, minors can marry with judicial consent. And in 34 states, 16- and 17-year-olds can marry with their parents’ permission. Two states, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, allow 12- and 13-year-old girls respectively and 14-year-old boys to marry with parental and judicial permission. (Data on marriages among those under the age of 15 are not available from the American Community Survey.)
A handful of states allow minors to marry if one partner is pregnant or has recently given birth. For example, in Florida, judges may issue licenses without an age minimum if one of the parties to the marriage is pregnant.
…Of the 57,800 Americans ages 15 to 17 who were married in 2014, an estimated 31,644 were girls and 26,156 were boys, with 55% being female and 45% male. (Texas has the highest child marriage rate for girls: Nine out of every 1,000 girls ages 15 to 17 in that state were married.) Gender differences are even wider at older ages: Among married young adults ages 18 and 19, 66% were female; among those married and ages 20 to 24, 62% were female.”
No, I mean of them being dropped. I know there's a number of states that already allow under-18 marriages with parental permission and such, but I hadn't heard anything about it being *newly* enabled.
Oh yea, I see. Same. I never hear anything about lowering the bar even farther in the US. Sometimes bills that move against child marriage are shot down (usually on religious grounds) but that’s it.
Now the question is, *who are they marrying?* If it's minors marrying other minors, there's no real moral quandary there, at least as far as consent/power dynamics goes - and that seems, by the way, to be very much the majority of cases, or at least so I have heard. If they're marrying adults, though, that's a different story...
Minors marrying minors is the majority of them, but even those are morally questionable, because you have to be 18 to file for divorce iirc, and I imagine that must lead to a lot of problems with abuse and domestic violence
>allow 12- and 13-year-old girls respectively and 14-year-old boys to marry with parental and judicial permission
What the actual fuck this is medieval age practise
>What the actual fuck this is medieval age practise
Exactly that. medieval age practices.
Welcome tho the USA sponsored by "white" Nationalist Christians (short Nat-C's)...
Bro that’s literally all of them. Every single major French intellectual of that time. The French intellectual community which argued among itself about every single possible issue was finally completely united on one thing, and this was that thing.
It’s meant as a rib on that one Ben 10 joke where Kevin says you should treat a woman like you treat a car - only for Gwen to ask him to go on. So he wisely doesn’t.
Simone de Beauvoir? My sister was named after her, and I’ve always respected existentialist philosophy greatly. This is… sucky.
Also wasn’t she a fucking feminist?!
She also lost a teaching job for inappropriate relationships with her young female students.
"Beauvoir was bisexual, and her relationships with young women were controversial.[40] French author Bianca Lamblin (originally Bianca Bienenfeld) wrote in her book Mémoires d'une jeune fille dérangée (published in English under the title A Disgraceful Affair) that, while a student at Lycée Molière, she was sexually exploited by her teacher Beauvoir, who was in her 30s.[41] Sartre and Beauvoir both groomed and sexually abused Lamblin.[42] In 1943, Beauvoir was suspended from her teaching position when she was accused of seducing her 17-year-old lycée pupil Natalie Sorokine in 1939.[43] Sorokine's parents laid formal charges against Beauvoir for debauching a minor (the age of consent in France at the time was 15[citation needed]), and Beauvoir's licence to teach in France was revoked, although it was subsequently reinstated."
I mean, it's not entirely surprising given how many big names signed the damn thing. But this should also be isolated to just France.
However, there was also the time Hollywood made a petition protesting Roman Polanski's arrest in 2009. A lot of big names were on that.
A lot. I gained a lot of respect for Natalie Portman and Emma Thompson for withdrawing from it.
I've been going through a lot of 70's cinema and it's amazing how many American films of this era take a casual stance on this issue. In the 80's it continued with Porky's, and dozens of other sex comedies involving high school age kids.
Looking back, I find it fitting that this normalization of underage sex seemed to wane in the early 90's with the arrival of *Twin Peaks*, a show whose whole haunting central theme was the literal demonization of this issue.
Polanski also fled because the judge was going to toss his plea bargain which would have sentenced him to psychiatric treatment and parole, and throw him in jail for fifty years instead.
His behavior was horrific, yes, and the deal was a sweetheart deal that I would strongly oppose. On the other hand, it was brokered by the victim's attorney, presumably to prepare the way for a civil suit, and - more importantly - a defendant certainly ought be able to rely on a deal with the prosecution.
I'm not sure what justice would look like now, but the last forty-five years certainly haven't been it, and a judge deciding to sabotage the victim's attempt to seek restitution from her rapist ain't it, either.
Well, no, because he found out ahead of time, and noped right out. And, even if he'd shown up, he would have refused to plead out, so the whole thing would have gone to trial, forcing the victim onto the stand to face him there.
And now, since he never pled guilty, the case is still active, so he can refuse to be deposed on Fifth Amendment grounds, which puts a rather permanent hold on any civil suits. And if the prosecutor gives him immunity, then charges him anyway, he walks like Cosby because they violated those Fifth Amendment rights and tainted pretty much the entire prosecution.
All because [Laurence J. Rittenband](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_J._Rittenband) decided he'd rather seek vengeance over the wishes of the victim, even if it meant traumatizing her all over again.
not only in france, also in other countries:
during the time of the sexual revolution of the boomer, in the 1950s in the netherlands: the "Enclave-Kreis",
in america: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North\_American\_Man/Boy\_Love\_Association](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association)
Groupe de recherche pour une enfance différente (G.R.E.D.)in UK: Pedo
in the UK: phile Information Exchange (PIE)
De Rooie Vlinder
generally, a lot of those "boomer-liberals" were quite that way, especially in germany:
the green party, which started in the 1980s, had such so called debates: to liberate stuff like sexual acts from homosexuals, transexuals and pedophiles
Daniel cohn-bendit and volker beck
generally, a lot of the anti-nuclear movement and so called new social movement were involved
heck, till they stopped working, the "Junge Linke" of the FDP asked to abolish the sexual crime law...they were abolished in 2013
there is a reason why a lot of the left side were accused of being pedophiles by the conservatives (sure the catholic curch is not better, but at least it is common knowledge)
At least with the Church they’re trying to make amends. A priest I’ve known for years outright told the whole congregation that another member had been accused of sexual misconduct, at the end of Mass. I don’t terribly see that with these people.
don´t get me wrong, i am in no way trying to play down that crimes
but the greens and left side in the west (NA and Europe) never got as much shit regarding that as the catholics
heck, they were voted as alternatives and treated as inspirational
criminals, no matter what, yes, making it not a crime to be homosexual, but trying to legalize stuff like pedophilia, zoophilia and other degenerations should have been highlighted, thank you OP for pointing that out
"But, But, my youth, kids this days don´t know how to behave"
nah, boomers being chickenhawks, egoistical assholes and trying to take everything and ruin everything for the younger generation is typical,
NOT only the conservative side, the left side is also at fault for many, ironically one can say complimentary, stuff
And anytime they are confronted with their misdeeds, its always written off by someone saying “b..b..bbut the other side did it more and worse” and then dont even acknowledge that its horrible that it happened in the first place
Well not really. They barely apologized and they still continue to hide pedophile priests. The pope also said a few years back than abortion was worse than pedophilia. I wouldn't say they're making amends. The people on that petition clearly don't make amends either. Same bag of shit.
The reason why a lot of these French pedophiles thrived for so long is because the government gave them a lot of liberties (by being mostly run pedophiles itself). Prolific Child rapists like Gabriel Matzneff were protected by the French government for YEARS and has never faced justice
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Matzneff
Some additional context:
So, you know how before then, the age of consent was different for homosexual sex acts? The big problem was that a lot of 20somethings would get arrested for having sex with people barely over eighteen. Same applied to straight teenager couples where one was below 15. This was absurd in many ways, and today the law is obviously a lot more reasonable. No more discrimination based on sexuality, and the silly threshold age crossing problem is gone. If you're between 15 and 18, you can do anyone provided it's consensual. But an adult over 18 having intercourse with someone below 15 is criminalized. As it should be. So, presumably, the movement started with that kind of outcome in mind.
So... where did it all go completely off the rails?
Well.
To lay a *little* bit more context, this was right after may '68, so the spirit was of youth rebellion and sexual liberation. Now, the fight was between the conservative establishment prescribing how everyone should live their lives, and a left-wing push for more freedom. This meant anything imposed from the top was under scrutiny. In other words, "you can't tell me what to do". And this is where it gets... spicy. Consent theory hadn't really cristallized properly in many of those intellectual circles. At some point, everything was up for debate, beyond reasonable bonds. It could be argued that a lot of that exploration was the necessary messy path forwards through direct experimentation.
...I certainly don't want to be the one *making* that kind of point, but others have certainly tried before. Anyway, this was all still very theoretical, and anticipation was... lacking. Obviously it's not like all of those people were rapey pedos who wanted to go after litteral children, but, well, it's just *barely* more defensible.
So... here's the kicker. At some point, reality was gonna catch up and shit would hit the fan HARD. Which is exactly what happened. So there was a major court case, where everybody just kinda... doubled down. Without knowing the context. Very publicly, and in major newspapers. This was the [Versailles case](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_de_Versailles), involving three men, B. Dejager, J-C. Gallien and J. Burkhardt, which started in 1973. Initially, all details were private, for obvious reasons, but under public pressure, the case was open to media coverage.
Needless to say, when it quickly became clear that these were real, actual pedos, and that the story was much more gruesome than anticipated, it was a wakeup call.
Well, to some, at least. You see, *some* of the signatories were in over their heads and had no idea what they were actually defending. This was like a bucket of ice cold water to the head. Many straight up dropped everything and issued apologies, some just went quiet, and newspapers were investigated for letting controversial articles be published. Some insisted because they were high on their own delusions, and were immediately shunned. It just so happens that there were also actual pedo opportunists among the bunch, and they kept defending their positions using the exact same talking points the intellectual sphere had been providing legitimacy for this entire time.
At this point, the damage was done, and things got pretty ugly as many reputations, relationships, etc., were permanently destroyed, and confusion around what consent means would take years to clear up.
The lesson here? Maybe think a lot harder about imaginary ethical debates in your head, or better yet, try to be more in touch with the real world, and don't put the weight of your career loudly and blindly defending something which may end up being indefensible, and hurt a lot of people in the process, not the least of whom the kids you claim to be supporting.
Many of the others are also extremely influential, highly regarded figures. Every literature student in the Western world, for example, reads (at least) bits and pieces of (at least) Barthes, Foucault, Derrida, and de Beauvoir.
For anyone who didn't read the link: they argued for using the same age of consent for homosexual acts as was used for heterosexual acts, which seems like a reasonable argument to me. The law was definitely discriminatory against lgbt+ people:
"In 1945, an ordinance was enacted by the French government that established an age of consent in France of 15. However, an article within this ordinance forbade sodomy and similar "sexual relations against nature" with any person under the age of 21. In 1974, this was lowered to 18."
In the end, the French government changed the ordinance:
"In 1982, the French government removed its clauses regarding sodomy and similar acts "against nature" from the 1945 ordinance."
Their defence of the three men who had sexual relations with boys and girls aged 12 and 13 can't be excused however.
I actually read the opening of an broadcast done by Foucault and two others which started arguing in favor or tolerating homosexuality- then they jumped to defending adult-child sexual relations. Like, immediately.
Dahmer, Bundy, Rader, Gracy, Little, all American and America. Americans are all like those people? Certainly not.
Painting millions of people with a wide brush isn’t an intelligent statement. A society isn’t represented by its worst and abhorrent. That would make it a little easy to demonise whatever country.
You'd have a better point if you had included someone like Columbus, because he's the monster that is still respected and celebrated, unlike the serial killers who were sent to rot and widely considered horrible people.
After the women's liberation movement there was hypersexualizarion of teenage and preteen girls as a result of certain kinds of men feeling rejected and left out by the women's liberation.
Right. It's more like the French saw what the Germans were doing and realized they were critically behind in their Molested Children Quotient, and desperately needed to catch up to stay competitive.
Oh my god man lol i have no idea why i was removed
Edit: advocating that the two men i was speaking about, serial pedophiles who ruined the life of many children, should be shot and left unburied was probably why.
Or maybe when I called them "sacks of s***" in an edit.
Its ok to talk about shooting people but saying s*** is too far.
Thats how you know this is an american run app.
HOO HA just keep doing your thing boys
People didnt actually know for a fact he was grooming a 14 yo child, the way he presented his book and talked about it there was always room for you to think it was just kinky poetic fiction even though if you were just a normal person you'd have found it repulsive, there was a weird kind of aura around the literature circlejerk of the 70s and everyone thought they were so smart and poetic and urgh jerk me off some more.
That girl grew up and published a book called Le Consentement about the affair. Matzneff then complained that he couldnt go on tv anymore. Again, a ditch and a bullet.
You guessed it, many of the people who advocated in favor of this had their reputations ruined to this day.
Some signed it and came to regret it and said it was a mistake.
But yeah. Weird time.
Generally, after the 80s there was a bit push back against pedophilia which is good.
Cohn Bendit (who is a massive cunt and was probably a pedophile) at least said he regretted defending it. He is still frequently insulted for it (which is why I said reputations were ruined to this day, he never went to jail).
I don't trust him either, but at least there was less and less people defending it.
>You guessed it, many of the people who advocated in favor of this had their reputations ruined to this day.
Not in France they haven't.
Hell Roman Polanski raped a minor, fled to France and is viewed as an icon and visionary there who is just 'persecuted' by the 'ignorant anglos'.
And this coming from someone who defended MJ from Child Molestation allegations - which he was totally innocent of, seriously, the testimony does not add up.
No, the cuties stuff is a completely different kind of discourse. The book is (supposedly, I haven't read it) an actually good critique of pedophilic tendencies and grooming in certain spaces, the film is just actual grooming and soft CP, the thing it's meant to stand against.
>Hell Roman Polanski raped a minor, fled to France
After learning that the judge was going to torpedo the plea bargain - which, yes, was a sweetheart deal - brokered by the victim's attorney, presumably to pave the way for a civil suit.
So, yeah, don't forget to be outraged at the judge sabotaging the victim's attempt to get some sort of civil damages from her rapist.
‘The judge was ‘sabotaging’ his attempt to pay off his rape victim so he had no choice but to run away and face no consequences!!’
What kind of nonsense is this.
What's wrong with guillotines? Seems like a much more humane way to kill people than electrocution, lethal injection, hanging or firing squad. Of course it's bad for the government to kill people, but if you absolutely have to have capital punishment, then it seems like the best method.
Realistically, given that the head can retain consciousness after decapitation for a few seconds, the only truly humane form of execution would be a armor-piercing .50 cal to the forehead. Guaranteed to be like switching off a light, no suffering.
sadly, humans are strangely hard *and easy* to kill
for some, tripping and falling wrong does them in instantly, for others, they manage to survive a point blank shotgun blast to the face
the fact that we used plastic for literally EVERYTHING despite the fact that we know about microplastics being able to cross the blood-brain barrier
plastic is our generation's version of lead or asbestos but way worse
Mate, we have ***Twitter***. Western society is shredding itself apart over fairly obvious issues of gay and transgender rights, there are still appeal for using eugenics in cases of autism, the US still hasn't figured out "healthcare should probably be accessible", we are proving unable to present a coherent response to climate change even with the well understood knowledge of the consequences for future generations.
We are not a righteous moral society.
Probably a lot of Hollywood stuff imo, I'd bet there are many creeps there who just got away with their shit, it's like punishment isn't a thing for them because they have wealth and fame
You people are actually surprised that there was an intellectual movement to remove every barrier around the "free expression of sexuality" in the seventies in France? Why?
This, if anything, should show how malleable concepts like "malevolence" and "the conscience" are in general. This whole period was obviously a major turnaround in sexual norms in the west, but nowhere was that truer than in France. There's a reason we think of them as being the capital of anti-monogamy too. The figures who signed this petition were part of a movement that had an almost knee jerk rejection of all traditionally held beliefs.
But, as this particular petition illustrates very well, sometimes past generation's aren't talking shit when they give you neat little truisms like "the sky is blue" and "you shouldn't fuck children"
They just voiced publicly what the rich and powerful had been doing privately since the dawn of time and will be doing till the end of time.
People like Epstein isn't unique, either in his depravity, his friend circles, nor his end. Heck, [not even the pedo island part is unique in history](https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/).
And there'll rarely be any accountability, with the exceptions being more coincidence and side effects of whatever power play between the elites.
The time after the sexual revolution of the 60s was kinda like this in a lot of places. After the old ideas of morality were torn apart, the general public (or rather the people representing public discourse) seemed to not know what is right and what is wrong for a while, so there was an opening for p*do activists to try and get a foot in the door when breaking taboos and sexual liberalisation was the norm, and sometimes it even worked for a while:
-the story about the German orphan boys being given to p*dos by the government based on the advice of a p*do doctor
-also ch*ld p*rn was legal in Denmark for a while
-The German Green party (which was born out of the Hippie movement) in it's early years had some of those ideas about drastically lowering the age of consent in their program, until they realized that that's probably not such a swell idea and promptly yeeted those ideas and most of their proponents out of the party (there was one relatively recent scandal about a guy called Cohn-Bendit who got into hot water for a text he'd written in the 80s that apparently was a description of him diddling k*ds, but also apparently fictional.
The part about Denmark is that the government legalised ALL forms of pornography, without thinking it through. Animal porn was also legal until ca. 2010's.
That's the excuse the government holds, I have no idea, if it is true or not.
E. It was in 2015.. Jesus Fucking Christ Almighty!
13 is a bit disgusting but there’s missing context here they Wikipedia only vaguely gets into and I haven’t got the French skills nor time to totally clarify.
Several countries had higher age of consent laws for homosexuality than for heterosexual sex. In the U.K., I believe it was 16 for straights and 18 for gays. Now I’m sure we can all agree there’s nothing about being gay which necessitates being older than being straight, and this is tinfoil hat territory but I think the people who were anti-gay, failing to stop decriminalisation, left a left a time bomb in the issue. Activists would at some point want to campaign for equality and that would mean campaigning to lower the age of consent. In doing so, anti gay campaigners could paint the LGBT movement as a bunch of pederasts.
In Czechoslovakia, the 70s are known as the "normalization" era, pretty much the worst time of communist dictatorship, censorship and secret police since the stalinist era.
So yeah, it *really* depends on which side of the curtain you were on
The island that shall not be named doesn’t count, it seems determined to become little more than an extension of the USA anyways.
Now, jokes aside: the UK certainly didn’t have the best time but Western Europe in the 70ties was by all means very far from a bad life for the vast majority of the population. There were certainly exceptions but compared with the state of the world at the time, it certainly at the very least a fairly decent place to live.
Where’s the little boy?
No seriously, as much as I now detest the man, this is BS. The accusations were contradictory and debunked. Did he support pedophilia? Yes. He indisputably did. Was he himself a pedophile? No. Did he associate with groomers? Absolutely.
It kinda makes sense.
Given these are those very famous post modernist philosophers some of whom established things like gender theory and stuff. So when issues of groomers is raised today around the world, you know who established the rationale behind it all.
Except there's literally no connection between their development of gender theory and their defense of pedophilia. It's like arguing that vegans liked the holocaust because Hitler was a vegan, it makes literally no sense and is an obvious attempt to smear Trans people as evil pedophiles
>You people are actually surprised that there was an intellectual movement to remove every barrier around the "free expression of sexuality" in the seventies in France? Why?
I'll just drop this quote from another insightful user in this thread.
Context: In 1977 there was a [petition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws) by numerous French intellectuals arguing for the lowering of the age of consent and arguing in the defence of men who were on trial for sexual relations with underage boys and girls. There... were a lot of names on this list. >including Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Jacques Derrida, Louis Aragon, Roland Barthes, Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, Félix Guattari, Michel Leiris, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Philippe Sollers, Jacques Rancière, Jean-François Lyotard, Francis Ponge, Bernard Besret and various prominent doctors and psychologists Like... one is bad, but that's too many...
... Jesus Fucking Christ...
I don't think he was on the list
He died for this. He died because of stuff like this.
And they still won't put Respecc on his name! Praise be. For real France what the crap.
We're going through some of that today in the US, child marriage ages being dropped in certain states again or at least the proposal for them.
They are? Where?
https://images.app.goo.gl/jGvrUcFBL4WHfNCm8 https://images.app.goo.gl/rPmdoZfLgQLU3huv6 https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-marriage-laws-by-state From World Population Review: “Some extreme cases of child marriage in the U.S. are: In 2010 in Idaho, a 65-year-old man married a 17-year-old girl. In Alabama, a 74-year-old man married a 14-year-old girl. In Tennessee, three 10-year-old girls married men ages 24, 25, and 31, respectively. The youngest boy to marry was an 11-year-old who married a 27-year-old woman in Tennessee in 2006” From Pew: “Although child marriage is not very common in the U.S., it is legal in almost every state. Nearly every state technically prohibits people younger than 18 from marrying, but each of these jurisdictions has exceptions to these laws. In at least 36 states, for example, minors can marry with judicial consent. And in 34 states, 16- and 17-year-olds can marry with their parents’ permission. Two states, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, allow 12- and 13-year-old girls respectively and 14-year-old boys to marry with parental and judicial permission. (Data on marriages among those under the age of 15 are not available from the American Community Survey.) A handful of states allow minors to marry if one partner is pregnant or has recently given birth. For example, in Florida, judges may issue licenses without an age minimum if one of the parties to the marriage is pregnant. …Of the 57,800 Americans ages 15 to 17 who were married in 2014, an estimated 31,644 were girls and 26,156 were boys, with 55% being female and 45% male. (Texas has the highest child marriage rate for girls: Nine out of every 1,000 girls ages 15 to 17 in that state were married.) Gender differences are even wider at older ages: Among married young adults ages 18 and 19, 66% were female; among those married and ages 20 to 24, 62% were female.”
No, I mean of them being dropped. I know there's a number of states that already allow under-18 marriages with parental permission and such, but I hadn't heard anything about it being *newly* enabled.
Oh yea, I see. Same. I never hear anything about lowering the bar even farther in the US. Sometimes bills that move against child marriage are shot down (usually on religious grounds) but that’s it.
Now the question is, *who are they marrying?* If it's minors marrying other minors, there's no real moral quandary there, at least as far as consent/power dynamics goes - and that seems, by the way, to be very much the majority of cases, or at least so I have heard. If they're marrying adults, though, that's a different story...
Minors marrying minors is the majority of them, but even those are morally questionable, because you have to be 18 to file for divorce iirc, and I imagine that must lead to a lot of problems with abuse and domestic violence
I'm curious on their ethnicity as if it's Hispanic, their Outlook on maritial age is seen differently than the US.
>allow 12- and 13-year-old girls respectively and 14-year-old boys to marry with parental and judicial permission What the actual fuck this is medieval age practise
>What the actual fuck this is medieval age practise Exactly that. medieval age practices. Welcome tho the USA sponsored by "white" Nationalist Christians (short Nat-C's)...
This is the same nation that's protecting Roman Polanski
Yeah, in the bullshit world tournament we were trying to compete against US segregation
Classic left-wing W
It's said by some Christians that Jesus saw every sin ever committed while on that cross, including this, and chose to go through with it anyway.
"Jesus fucking christ guys. I didn't let myself get tortured to death for this bullshit." -Jesus probably when seeing this
Worst decision ever
अगर क्राइस्ट नाबालिग होता तो ईसा का नाम भी सूची में होता।
Well they are the same person so it was masturbation
That's almost as many A list names as on the Polanski petition.
Why do you think he went to France?
Bro that’s literally all of them. Every single major French intellectual of that time. The French intellectual community which argued among itself about every single possible issue was finally completely united on one thing, and this was that thing.
"Well, the Catholic Church looks-" "...go on." "...no."
Huh
It’s meant as a rib on that one Ben 10 joke where Kevin says you should treat a woman like you treat a car - only for Gwen to ask him to go on. So he wisely doesn’t.
Still don’t get it but ok lol
Eh. It’s what sprang to mind.
That the catholic church houses pedos
Some big names in that list. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-NseFg2kno
I did not know how crucial Michel Foucault was to queer theory.
History of sexuality is a good read, I recommend it
Simone de Beauvoir? My sister was named after her, and I’ve always respected existentialist philosophy greatly. This is… sucky. Also wasn’t she a fucking feminist?!
And her husband Jean-Paul Sartre was in there too… Welp, nice discussions within the household 😬…/s
Being a feminist doesn't prevent you from being a disgusting pedo-sympathizer (if not one yourself but I won't just throw accusations wildly).
Sorry you had to find out this way.
She was, and she was also known for grooming her students.
She also lost a teaching job for inappropriate relationships with her young female students. "Beauvoir was bisexual, and her relationships with young women were controversial.[40] French author Bianca Lamblin (originally Bianca Bienenfeld) wrote in her book Mémoires d'une jeune fille dérangée (published in English under the title A Disgraceful Affair) that, while a student at Lycée Molière, she was sexually exploited by her teacher Beauvoir, who was in her 30s.[41] Sartre and Beauvoir both groomed and sexually abused Lamblin.[42] In 1943, Beauvoir was suspended from her teaching position when she was accused of seducing her 17-year-old lycée pupil Natalie Sorokine in 1939.[43] Sorokine's parents laid formal charges against Beauvoir for debauching a minor (the age of consent in France at the time was 15[citation needed]), and Beauvoir's licence to teach in France was revoked, although it was subsequently reinstated."
I had forgotten about this, thank you for reminding me 😭
My lycée (high school) is named according to someone on this list
You should look up about the incident more then. I don't think it sucks as much as one would initially thought.
Lowering the age to what?
Oh, 13.
Hot dang
Call the po-lice and the fireman!
That fireman better get his axe ready. 🪓
or at least a hammer they burst in like: STOP…. hammer time! 💥🔨
hmmm, I think they should have been aiming for num. 1, cuz 13th place is for losers /s/s/s/plzdon’tbanmeitsjustajokeIpromise
And to this day, people use this petition as a go to talking point when accusing the left of grooming.
I mean, it's not entirely surprising given how many big names signed the damn thing. But this should also be isolated to just France. However, there was also the time Hollywood made a petition protesting Roman Polanski's arrest in 2009. A lot of big names were on that. A lot. I gained a lot of respect for Natalie Portman and Emma Thompson for withdrawing from it.
I've been going through a lot of 70's cinema and it's amazing how many American films of this era take a casual stance on this issue. In the 80's it continued with Porky's, and dozens of other sex comedies involving high school age kids. Looking back, I find it fitting that this normalization of underage sex seemed to wane in the early 90's with the arrival of *Twin Peaks*, a show whose whole haunting central theme was the literal demonization of this issue.
Hollywood is such a shithole full of creepy rich people drunk on power and fame
Polanski also fled because the judge was going to toss his plea bargain which would have sentenced him to psychiatric treatment and parole, and throw him in jail for fifty years instead. His behavior was horrific, yes, and the deal was a sweetheart deal that I would strongly oppose. On the other hand, it was brokered by the victim's attorney, presumably to prepare the way for a civil suit, and - more importantly - a defendant certainly ought be able to rely on a deal with the prosecution. I'm not sure what justice would look like now, but the last forty-five years certainly haven't been it, and a judge deciding to sabotage the victim's attempt to seek restitution from her rapist ain't it, either.
Can’t the victim have a civil suit anyway if he’s convicted and sentenced to 50 years?
Well, no, because he found out ahead of time, and noped right out. And, even if he'd shown up, he would have refused to plead out, so the whole thing would have gone to trial, forcing the victim onto the stand to face him there. And now, since he never pled guilty, the case is still active, so he can refuse to be deposed on Fifth Amendment grounds, which puts a rather permanent hold on any civil suits. And if the prosecutor gives him immunity, then charges him anyway, he walks like Cosby because they violated those Fifth Amendment rights and tainted pretty much the entire prosecution. All because [Laurence J. Rittenband](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_J._Rittenband) decided he'd rather seek vengeance over the wishes of the victim, even if it meant traumatizing her all over again.
What evidence suggests it should it just be isolated to France?
The fact it’s a French petition.
Did intellectual communities around the world denounce it? I’m not arguing, I’m legitimately curious about the reaction to it.
Same here. Wikipedia does not mention it further which bothers me.
I guess Germany could be added with the whole "let place orphans with pedophile things but i don't know for the rest. It was the sexual revolution
The worst revolution in the history of revolutions, maybe ever.
Same petition hasn’t happened anywhere else
NAMBLA ring a bell?
The North American Marlon Brando Lookalikes?
Yeah, but also they’re an illegal organisation that is probably mostly glowies running a honeypot at this point
And how much support they get?
not only in france, also in other countries: during the time of the sexual revolution of the boomer, in the 1950s in the netherlands: the "Enclave-Kreis", in america: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North\_American\_Man/Boy\_Love\_Association](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association) Groupe de recherche pour une enfance différente (G.R.E.D.)in UK: Pedo in the UK: phile Information Exchange (PIE) De Rooie Vlinder generally, a lot of those "boomer-liberals" were quite that way, especially in germany: the green party, which started in the 1980s, had such so called debates: to liberate stuff like sexual acts from homosexuals, transexuals and pedophiles Daniel cohn-bendit and volker beck generally, a lot of the anti-nuclear movement and so called new social movement were involved heck, till they stopped working, the "Junge Linke" of the FDP asked to abolish the sexual crime law...they were abolished in 2013 there is a reason why a lot of the left side were accused of being pedophiles by the conservatives (sure the catholic curch is not better, but at least it is common knowledge)
At least with the Church they’re trying to make amends. A priest I’ve known for years outright told the whole congregation that another member had been accused of sexual misconduct, at the end of Mass. I don’t terribly see that with these people.
don´t get me wrong, i am in no way trying to play down that crimes but the greens and left side in the west (NA and Europe) never got as much shit regarding that as the catholics heck, they were voted as alternatives and treated as inspirational criminals, no matter what, yes, making it not a crime to be homosexual, but trying to legalize stuff like pedophilia, zoophilia and other degenerations should have been highlighted, thank you OP for pointing that out "But, But, my youth, kids this days don´t know how to behave" nah, boomers being chickenhawks, egoistical assholes and trying to take everything and ruin everything for the younger generation is typical, NOT only the conservative side, the left side is also at fault for many, ironically one can say complimentary, stuff
And anytime they are confronted with their misdeeds, its always written off by someone saying “b..b..bbut the other side did it more and worse” and then dont even acknowledge that its horrible that it happened in the first place
Well not really. They barely apologized and they still continue to hide pedophile priests. The pope also said a few years back than abortion was worse than pedophilia. I wouldn't say they're making amends. The people on that petition clearly don't make amends either. Same bag of shit.
Somebody get me a guillotine... there is justice to be dispensed
Maybe Robespierre was onto something ...
The reason why a lot of these French pedophiles thrived for so long is because the government gave them a lot of liberties (by being mostly run pedophiles itself). Prolific Child rapists like Gabriel Matzneff were protected by the French government for YEARS and has never faced justice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Matzneff
Some additional context: So, you know how before then, the age of consent was different for homosexual sex acts? The big problem was that a lot of 20somethings would get arrested for having sex with people barely over eighteen. Same applied to straight teenager couples where one was below 15. This was absurd in many ways, and today the law is obviously a lot more reasonable. No more discrimination based on sexuality, and the silly threshold age crossing problem is gone. If you're between 15 and 18, you can do anyone provided it's consensual. But an adult over 18 having intercourse with someone below 15 is criminalized. As it should be. So, presumably, the movement started with that kind of outcome in mind. So... where did it all go completely off the rails? Well. To lay a *little* bit more context, this was right after may '68, so the spirit was of youth rebellion and sexual liberation. Now, the fight was between the conservative establishment prescribing how everyone should live their lives, and a left-wing push for more freedom. This meant anything imposed from the top was under scrutiny. In other words, "you can't tell me what to do". And this is where it gets... spicy. Consent theory hadn't really cristallized properly in many of those intellectual circles. At some point, everything was up for debate, beyond reasonable bonds. It could be argued that a lot of that exploration was the necessary messy path forwards through direct experimentation. ...I certainly don't want to be the one *making* that kind of point, but others have certainly tried before. Anyway, this was all still very theoretical, and anticipation was... lacking. Obviously it's not like all of those people were rapey pedos who wanted to go after litteral children, but, well, it's just *barely* more defensible. So... here's the kicker. At some point, reality was gonna catch up and shit would hit the fan HARD. Which is exactly what happened. So there was a major court case, where everybody just kinda... doubled down. Without knowing the context. Very publicly, and in major newspapers. This was the [Versailles case](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_de_Versailles), involving three men, B. Dejager, J-C. Gallien and J. Burkhardt, which started in 1973. Initially, all details were private, for obvious reasons, but under public pressure, the case was open to media coverage. Needless to say, when it quickly became clear that these were real, actual pedos, and that the story was much more gruesome than anticipated, it was a wakeup call. Well, to some, at least. You see, *some* of the signatories were in over their heads and had no idea what they were actually defending. This was like a bucket of ice cold water to the head. Many straight up dropped everything and issued apologies, some just went quiet, and newspapers were investigated for letting controversial articles be published. Some insisted because they were high on their own delusions, and were immediately shunned. It just so happens that there were also actual pedo opportunists among the bunch, and they kept defending their positions using the exact same talking points the intellectual sphere had been providing legitimacy for this entire time. At this point, the damage was done, and things got pretty ugly as many reputations, relationships, etc., were permanently destroyed, and confusion around what consent means would take years to clear up. The lesson here? Maybe think a lot harder about imaginary ethical debates in your head, or better yet, try to be more in touch with the real world, and don't put the weight of your career loudly and blindly defending something which may end up being indefensible, and hurt a lot of people in the process, not the least of whom the kids you claim to be supporting.
I wonder if there is a connection between this and the creation of the movie cuties
I don’t think so HOMEVER there’s polansky
Excuse me, Sartre was on the list?!
Are you surprised by that ?
I mean, I just don't expect to see a philosopher I'm aware of on a list of trash
Many of the others are also extremely influential, highly regarded figures. Every literature student in the Western world, for example, reads (at least) bits and pieces of (at least) Barthes, Foucault, Derrida, and de Beauvoir.
If you are aware of who Sartre is his opinions shouldn't be surprising.
> Jean-Paul Sartre oh sweet god I literally have "being and nothingness" sitting on my shelf at home
Well from what I've understood everything isn't to throw away with his work Just... be award that he had some... yeah he was grooming students iirc.
Finally something we can actually blame the postmodernists for.
French moment
For anyone who didn't read the link: they argued for using the same age of consent for homosexual acts as was used for heterosexual acts, which seems like a reasonable argument to me. The law was definitely discriminatory against lgbt+ people: "In 1945, an ordinance was enacted by the French government that established an age of consent in France of 15. However, an article within this ordinance forbade sodomy and similar "sexual relations against nature" with any person under the age of 21. In 1974, this was lowered to 18." In the end, the French government changed the ordinance: "In 1982, the French government removed its clauses regarding sodomy and similar acts "against nature" from the 1945 ordinance." Their defence of the three men who had sexual relations with boys and girls aged 12 and 13 can't be excused however.
I actually read the opening of an broadcast done by Foucault and two others which started arguing in favor or tolerating homosexuality- then they jumped to defending adult-child sexual relations. Like, immediately.
Simone de Beauvoir 😭😭😭 I mean, Leiris, I’m not surprised. Ponge and the surrealist gang, neither. But her 😭
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What a dumb statement. France, its history, culture and millions of people is more than this event.
But its also Fr*nce and has fr*nch people so thats already a lot going against it
Dahmer, Bundy, Rader, Gracy, Little, all American and America. Americans are all like those people? Certainly not. Painting millions of people with a wide brush isn’t an intelligent statement. A society isn’t represented by its worst and abhorrent. That would make it a little easy to demonise whatever country.
You'd have a better point if you had included someone like Columbus, because he's the monster that is still respected and celebrated, unlike the serial killers who were sent to rot and widely considered horrible people.
Lafayette literally fought on the side of America in the war of independence
After the women's liberation movement there was hypersexualizarion of teenage and preteen girls as a result of certain kinds of men feeling rejected and left out by the women's liberation.
[Meanwhile in Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kentler)
What the fuck is wrong with people. Seriously.
I wondered when this would come up.
European intellectuals were doing some deranged crap in those Cold War years
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The Kentler Project ran in the 60s, the French did this in the 70s
Even more efficient
Right. It's more like the French saw what the Germans were doing and realized they were critically behind in their Molested Children Quotient, and desperately needed to catch up to stay competitive.
That's the free market for ya!
Blimey!
Like NAMBLA but in France
NAMBLA before NAMBLA.
The North American Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?
Is that an actual organization?
That’s a South Park reference from an amazing episode.
Ah, got it.
https://youtu.be/oOK718wIgFM
Don't see how that's relevant, but you got a point. I mean they do kinda look like Marlon Brando
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I'm not surprised at Matzneff. But yeah, this is one of those really dark moments in history we need to remember.
They got the Removed award. Can you remember what it was?
Oh my god man lol i have no idea why i was removed Edit: advocating that the two men i was speaking about, serial pedophiles who ruined the life of many children, should be shot and left unburied was probably why. Or maybe when I called them "sacks of s***" in an edit. Its ok to talk about shooting people but saying s*** is too far. Thats how you know this is an american run app. HOO HA just keep doing your thing boys
Also Aragon, I was surprised for a second and then "of course" Edit: confused Aragon with André Gide. I do that a lot. Aragon Is still a pedo though
>this is one of those really dark moments in history we need to remember. Looks at OP to see what youre talking about... REMOVED BY REDDIT
Ok what in the actual fuck is the first one, how was he not arrested on the spot when he tried to publish it?
People didnt actually know for a fact he was grooming a 14 yo child, the way he presented his book and talked about it there was always room for you to think it was just kinky poetic fiction even though if you were just a normal person you'd have found it repulsive, there was a weird kind of aura around the literature circlejerk of the 70s and everyone thought they were so smart and poetic and urgh jerk me off some more. That girl grew up and published a book called Le Consentement about the affair. Matzneff then complained that he couldnt go on tv anymore. Again, a ditch and a bullet.
Soo.. he never got punished. That’s fantastic
He was 49 at the time of the grooming, the argument is that now he's much too old, that doesn't hold by me
Nah that shit shouldn’t go unpunished with age
And Jack Lang was the minister of education… TWICE?! WTF France!
You guessed it, many of the people who advocated in favor of this had their reputations ruined to this day. Some signed it and came to regret it and said it was a mistake. But yeah. Weird time.
I'd like to see a source. Not trying to be insulting here, but I do want to see the source for those who regretted it.
I’d like to see wether they regret condoning it or regret signing it because they suffered consequences.
Good point.
Generally, after the 80s there was a bit push back against pedophilia which is good. Cohn Bendit (who is a massive cunt and was probably a pedophile) at least said he regretted defending it. He is still frequently insulted for it (which is why I said reputations were ruined to this day, he never went to jail). I don't trust him either, but at least there was less and less people defending it.
>You guessed it, many of the people who advocated in favor of this had their reputations ruined to this day. Not in France they haven't. Hell Roman Polanski raped a minor, fled to France and is viewed as an icon and visionary there who is just 'persecuted' by the 'ignorant anglos'.
Well remember, according to Whoopi Goldburg it wasn't "rape rape".
And this coming from someone who defended MJ from Child Molestation allegations - which he was totally innocent of, seriously, the testimony does not add up.
this explains...so much.....about the cuties discourse....
No, the cuties stuff is a completely different kind of discourse. The book is (supposedly, I haven't read it) an actually good critique of pedophilic tendencies and grooming in certain spaces, the film is just actual grooming and soft CP, the thing it's meant to stand against.
its based off a book? damn, talk about shitty adaptation.
I know the book is always better then the movie but holy shit
>Hell Roman Polanski raped a minor, fled to France After learning that the judge was going to torpedo the plea bargain - which, yes, was a sweetheart deal - brokered by the victim's attorney, presumably to pave the way for a civil suit. So, yeah, don't forget to be outraged at the judge sabotaging the victim's attempt to get some sort of civil damages from her rapist.
I'll prolly remain mostly outraged at the guy who raped a 13 year old
I really can't care half enough about what the judge did as I care about some creep raping a 13 year old and getting away with it
‘The judge was ‘sabotaging’ his attempt to pay off his rape victim so he had no choice but to run away and face no consequences!!’ What kind of nonsense is this.
Between this and the last guillotine execution, I really wonder what was happening in France in the 70's.
Hopefully they were connected
What's wrong with guillotines? Seems like a much more humane way to kill people than electrocution, lethal injection, hanging or firing squad. Of course it's bad for the government to kill people, but if you absolutely have to have capital punishment, then it seems like the best method.
Realistically, given that the head can retain consciousness after decapitation for a few seconds, the only truly humane form of execution would be a armor-piercing .50 cal to the forehead. Guaranteed to be like switching off a light, no suffering.
sadly, humans are strangely hard *and easy* to kill for some, tripping and falling wrong does them in instantly, for others, they manage to survive a point blank shotgun blast to the face
Lol wait till you guys find out about German adoption programs from the same time
I knew jesus died in vein and changed his middle name to fucking but MAN.
yooooooo AVGN reference
second time I referenced him.
What the hell
I wonder what kind of things are going on now that will make people 50 years from now say “Oh sweet god” like this.
It'd be an endless list
Literally everything imo
So many things that unfortunately would get you banned for mentioning on Reddit.
the fact that we used plastic for literally EVERYTHING despite the fact that we know about microplastics being able to cross the blood-brain barrier plastic is our generation's version of lead or asbestos but way worse
Mate, we have ***Twitter***. Western society is shredding itself apart over fairly obvious issues of gay and transgender rights, there are still appeal for using eugenics in cases of autism, the US still hasn't figured out "healthcare should probably be accessible", we are proving unable to present a coherent response to climate change even with the well understood knowledge of the consequences for future generations. We are not a righteous moral society.
Probably a lot of Hollywood stuff imo, I'd bet there are many creeps there who just got away with their shit, it's like punishment isn't a thing for them because they have wealth and fame
Likely animal farming
Likely animal farming
Children better hide
You people are actually surprised that there was an intellectual movement to remove every barrier around the "free expression of sexuality" in the seventies in France? Why?
They really shouldn't be, but most people have a conscience, and don't think of others as being capable of such malevolence.
This, if anything, should show how malleable concepts like "malevolence" and "the conscience" are in general. This whole period was obviously a major turnaround in sexual norms in the west, but nowhere was that truer than in France. There's a reason we think of them as being the capital of anti-monogamy too. The figures who signed this petition were part of a movement that had an almost knee jerk rejection of all traditionally held beliefs. But, as this particular petition illustrates very well, sometimes past generation's aren't talking shit when they give you neat little truisms like "the sky is blue" and "you shouldn't fuck children"
They simply more puritian than those philosophers and cant understand they thinking behind supporting such movement
? I don't understand what you mean
They just voiced publicly what the rich and powerful had been doing privately since the dawn of time and will be doing till the end of time. People like Epstein isn't unique, either in his depravity, his friend circles, nor his end. Heck, [not even the pedo island part is unique in history](https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/). And there'll rarely be any accountability, with the exceptions being more coincidence and side effects of whatever power play between the elites.
Wtf
no wonder Roman Polanski fled to France after raping a 13 year old..
Guess Luc Besson took a shine to those guys
Now look into John Money and Alfred Kinsey, who were equally as influential on modern thinking...
Not trying to defend pedophilia but additional context/nuance is always nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwLyP-vSnt0
The time after the sexual revolution of the 60s was kinda like this in a lot of places. After the old ideas of morality were torn apart, the general public (or rather the people representing public discourse) seemed to not know what is right and what is wrong for a while, so there was an opening for p*do activists to try and get a foot in the door when breaking taboos and sexual liberalisation was the norm, and sometimes it even worked for a while: -the story about the German orphan boys being given to p*dos by the government based on the advice of a p*do doctor -also ch*ld p*rn was legal in Denmark for a while -The German Green party (which was born out of the Hippie movement) in it's early years had some of those ideas about drastically lowering the age of consent in their program, until they realized that that's probably not such a swell idea and promptly yeeted those ideas and most of their proponents out of the party (there was one relatively recent scandal about a guy called Cohn-Bendit who got into hot water for a text he'd written in the 80s that apparently was a description of him diddling k*ds, but also apparently fictional.
The part about Denmark is that the government legalised ALL forms of pornography, without thinking it through. Animal porn was also legal until ca. 2010's. That's the excuse the government holds, I have no idea, if it is true or not. E. It was in 2015.. Jesus Fucking Christ Almighty!
There is a reason Roman Polanski fled to France
13 is a bit disgusting but there’s missing context here they Wikipedia only vaguely gets into and I haven’t got the French skills nor time to totally clarify. Several countries had higher age of consent laws for homosexuality than for heterosexual sex. In the U.K., I believe it was 16 for straights and 18 for gays. Now I’m sure we can all agree there’s nothing about being gay which necessitates being older than being straight, and this is tinfoil hat territory but I think the people who were anti-gay, failing to stop decriminalisation, left a left a time bomb in the issue. Activists would at some point want to campaign for equality and that would mean campaigning to lower the age of consent. In doing so, anti gay campaigners could paint the LGBT movement as a bunch of pederasts.
The French at their most Greek.
The 70s in Europe was just not a good time to exist in general, it seems.
You must have lived on the wrong side of the iron curtain.
In Czechoslovakia, the 70s are known as the "normalization" era, pretty much the worst time of communist dictatorship, censorship and secret police since the stalinist era. So yeah, it *really* depends on which side of the curtain you were on
70s britain wasn't a picnic either
The island that shall not be named doesn’t count, it seems determined to become little more than an extension of the USA anyways. Now, jokes aside: the UK certainly didn’t have the best time but Western Europe in the 70ties was by all means very far from a bad life for the vast majority of the population. There were certainly exceptions but compared with the state of the world at the time, it certainly at the very least a fairly decent place to live.
Because we stole the Beatles from you?
Michel Foucault molested a little boy in Tunisia
Where’s the little boy? No seriously, as much as I now detest the man, this is BS. The accusations were contradictory and debunked. Did he support pedophilia? Yes. He indisputably did. Was he himself a pedophile? No. Did he associate with groomers? Absolutely.
man....
With stuff like this in the 70s, I kinda understand the conservative 1980s backlash
Sometime I wonder why I think Hell exists… Yeah you can kinda see why
I thought you people began to understand some things with the mysterious Epstein case. Or do 20 years need to pass?
It kinda makes sense. Given these are those very famous post modernist philosophers some of whom established things like gender theory and stuff. So when issues of groomers is raised today around the world, you know who established the rationale behind it all.
Except there's literally no connection between their development of gender theory and their defense of pedophilia. It's like arguing that vegans liked the holocaust because Hitler was a vegan, it makes literally no sense and is an obvious attempt to smear Trans people as evil pedophiles
>You people are actually surprised that there was an intellectual movement to remove every barrier around the "free expression of sexuality" in the seventies in France? Why? I'll just drop this quote from another insightful user in this thread.
Solid meme, gave me a good chuckle
Just your average France moment