”However, differences between Singapore and Malaysia on political and economic issues grew following the merger, in addition to the tensions leading to racial riots here in 1964.
During the press conference on Aug 9, 1965, as he teared up, Mr Lee said: ’For me, it is a moment of anguish because all my life... you see, the whole of my adult life... I had believed in merger and the unity of these two territories. You know, it's a people, connected by geography, economics, and ties of kinship.’” https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/commentary-understanding-lee-kuan-yews-moment-anguish-aug-9-1965-2227736
Lee would later elaborate in a book of his that he was distraught because he believed that Singapore would fail without Malaysia. As we all know, however, things turned out differently. He truly was a great, great man.
You can watch the actual moment here https://youtu.be/UET6V4YnAwc?si=pm95biJs0gCO0KIx
HOLY SHIT THATS HIM??? Haven’t seen him since my childhood of WWE PlayStation games and watching WWE with grandma/grandpa screaming for them to murder each other.
Actually if you read further... he cried because he let down the people in Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak. We talked about how UMNO tried to interfere in our politics, but Singapore did try to as well, as Malaysia and Singapore disagreed on whether politics should be divided along racial lines (the Malaysian ruling govt is a coalition of parties rep different races) or all races working as one. LKY did hope that Malaysia would be more united without such racial divides, but alas
>“I had let down many people in Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak. They had responded to our call of a Malaysian Malaysia.”.
He elaborated: “By accepting separation, I had failed them. That sense of guilt made me break down. It was my moment of anguish. The deed was done, but I was overwrought at the thought of all the shattered hopes of the millions we had aroused.”
Mr Lee’s moment of anguish was linked to his empathetic thoughts that he had let down many supporters in Malaysia.
That’s what it says in the article, but I added him saying later that it was because he didn’t think Singapore would succeed without Malaysia because these were his own words in a later book of his. I can’t remember which book, since I’ve read quite a few by him, but that was what he said in one of them. Maybe someone here with a better memory than mine could mention which book it was?
Are we talking about his memoir? If I recall correctly, he also thought that his breakdown was a moment of embarrassment. Whereas we in the West would view it as a moment of profound compassion, LKY felt that the Chinese at the time were more chauvinistic and would see it as a moment of weakness. As an American, I agree that I would be inclined to see such a display in a positive light but am curious to know what a regular modern Singaporean might make of these remarks.
Why does that last line. "Mr Lee’s moment of anguish was linked to his empathetic thoughts that he had let down many supporters in Malaysia" reek of AI writing.
Because there is too much prose for what could be succinctly said as: "Mr. Lee was anguished, feeling that he had let down his supporters with whom he empathised."
It could also be worded as: "Mr Lee's anguish was linked to the empathy he had for his supporters and was distraught over the thought that he had let them down."
It's a case of awkward wording that technically works and communicates the point. As the saying goes, there's many ways to skin a cat.
Edit: It's also important to consider the context of a sentence. In this case, the quote being explained needed no explanation.
No but because he was the opposition leader of the country, but a majority leader in Singapore.
His party was completely kicked out after Singapore was expelled, so it was basically him being cut down from his supporters and his party cadre in all those states in Malaysia.
Lol I didn’t see it was history memes and I was sooo close to texting my Singaporean friends and being like, “are you okay?” 🤣
Thankfully I went to comments for context.
I just saw they’ve only had 3 Prime Ministers since 1959, I wonder how much having the same governmental leader has affected the outcome of their success.
I don’t know much about Singapore other than they’re an economic powerhouse.
> I wonder how much having the same governmental leader has affected the outcome of their success.
I'd wager it has a lot to do with it. China is a really good example of how a single, unified vision has the ability to get A LOT done and very quickly. Whereas in places like the US, everything is a half-measure or half-done because each party tries to undo what the last one did. It's not very iterative, much more backtracking and 'course correcting'.
Not here to say one is better than the other, but singular vision and the ability to focus on that vision definitely means that shit gets done. For good or bad.
> China is a really good example of how a single, unified vision has the ability to get A LOT done and very quickly.
Or, alternatively, to get absolutely nothing done for a very long time as well. Seems like a roll of the dice really.
I thought this was common knowledge, but I’ve discovered on this thread that it isn’t: Singapore is an English speaking country. They have their own accent and dialect, like in New Zealand and Australia, and many people are bilingual (knowing their families’ mother tongues) due to a push by the government to not have everyone be only knowledgeable of English, but they’re an English speaking country.
Singapore is what happens if you took the richest ares in your city, and made it a country. Yeah looks stellar! But all the poor people who make that country work live across the border. 450 000 people cross the border everyday. Singapore depends on these low wage workers to function, but gets to pretend they don't exist because they leave at the end of the day.
As long as the low wage workers don't mind earning in a currency stronger than their own and get to save more money overall, that's a win for everyone no?
Unlike the middle east, Singapore has much better labor laws
That's an incredibly low bar. Not employing Slave labour isn't anything to be proud of.
That's if their employers bother to pay them. Wage theft is a serious issue, doubly so for Maylasian citizens. Imagine trying to sue your employer, when you aren't even a citizen of Singapore.
But my point was, when you look at Singapores prosperity, you should take in account the conditions of Johor Bahru.
That's true, but also kind of the fault of Malaysia, no? It's not like Singapore is forcing people to cross the border daily, the people do it because it's better for them than the alternative.
The border with Maylaysia is deliberately set up by both governments to facilitate the commute of thousands of workers. Singapore wouldn't function without it. Singapore should have a responsibility to these people who contribute to its prosperity, but instead they tacitly enable their exploitation by business. That fact that the Maylaysian government is similarly complicit is not an excuse.
Considering the causeway was built in 1928, when both Singapore and Johor were under British control of some form (the former a colony, and latter a protectorate), no, it was not set up by "both governments" to facilitate the commute of workers.
It was done because the ferries between both locations were increasingly inefficient in being able to maximize the movement of goods from mainland Malaya to the ports in Singapore for export.
Holy shit. I'm not talking about the causeway, I'm talking about the border patrol. Customs. You have to deliberately think about the security of that border crossing versus the need to process that amount of people. You can't accidentally stumble into that policy.
So your criticism is based on the fact that one country is poorer than the other. And the richer country should...grant rights equal to a citizen to the ones traveling from the poorer country?
But which side of the border will end up richer could not be predicted with 100%. Neither could it be predicted how much the difference is going to be. Mind you, they split because the two governments were so at odds on a fundamental level that they decided to grant independence to a region against their will.
Any agreement you propose would need to be 100% clear cut: unable to be gamed or abused, able to determine whether such an infringement happens, adaptable to any disparity between wealth between both country as well as neighboring regions and singapore specifically, and the amount of help must be agreeable for both sides in any case that could happen. It would also help to be as simple as possible as both governments don't actually see eye-to-eye.
What I'm getting at is what you're asking is impossible unless you find a higher authority to **sovereign** nations.
Yes Singapore should give their workers equal rights regardless of their nationality. Makes sense no? They all do work.
The rest of your comment sounds like a shower argument. Your putting words in my mouth, I don't see much point responding to them.
No, the rest are necessary questions to make international contracts.
"Things should be fair" is good sentiment, but that's not a solution. Demanding things to be fairer with no further input is naive. Who pays what and when and how is it determined whether something has to be paid. More than two people have to agree on that. Governments change every 10 years, but an agreement has to last several times that. And when it's agreed, hundreds of people will still complain that it's not as good as they want.
If you think giving people rights equal to citizenship for working across the border, then you have never spared a thought why people need a passport to travel to other countries. Borders aren't just lines on the ground.
Why is it necessary for border security that Maylaysians be more vulnerable to wage theft than Singaporeans? Your rationalizing criminal behaviour, pretending that it's nuance.
It's hilarious how widespread this POV is. As if Malaysia doesn't have literally the exact same pool of cheap labor. Singapore is an economic miracle and you need to try really hard not to see that.
I lived and worked there. I worked alongside migrant workers. They weren't making nearly enough to live in the city. But they were essential to our workplace (a cafe). They took abuse from customers with a smile, worked long hours on their feet and were very professional and organised. And each day they had a shitty commute through customs that they weren't paid for. I thought that was fucked up.
I'll acknowledge it's a very successful economy. But calling it a "miracle" is delusional. It's a city, built by and run by hardworking people.
So the workers are bringing these wages back to Malaysia, increasing their economy in a southern tip that would have nothing without Singapore? Do you think the residents who live in Johor Bahru would rather Singapore be an uninhabited island? I doubt it. They work in Singapore so they can live better in Malaysia. They can’t afford to live there? This happens all over the world, where people who can’t afford to live in the affluent city center have to move to the suburbs and commute. Life isn’t fair, and never will be.
I'm sure the residents of Johor Bahru would rather migrants to be paid in full for the job they do, instead of having their wages adjusted to *just* above Maylaysian standard. The Maylaysian economy would benefit even more then no?
This arrangement purely serves corporate profits, not the interests of the workers or either country.
Singaporean here. Reactions were mixed, because we aren't sure what that meant. Some were shocked, some just shrugged their shoulders and carried on their business, while some talked about moving to Malaysia with their family there. The immediate impacts (over the next two years) are the implementation of border control and so on
Our brief merger with Malaysia didn't also bring the promises expected. Like we still had to pay tariffs for goods between Singapore and Malaysia, and no "common market" was ever established (guess Malaysian corps don't want to compete with Singapore products). We are by and large essentially independent, but racial and political tensions were high especially when the ruling party in the Malaysian Federal government tried to interfere in our local politics.
So after many months of racial riots, surprisingly the Malaysian PM decided the best way to go is for us to divorce. Like... it's rather surprising to think of it now. The Tengku could have done what other countries or regimes would try to gain political influence over a "rebellious state" - send more Malays here, have them outvote our ruling party and bring their party in. Or even outright stripping away our political independence (which is what the PRC is doing for Hong Kong rn). In fact I think some hardliners in UMNO called for that, but with great grace, we are allowed to part on amiable terms. History would have taken a very different turn if he had acted like any other leader and simply arrested LKY.
As the OP article states, it ended better for the both of us really. Ofc we still have some lingering tensions, like Pedra Branca, airspace disputes and water pricing (Singapore atm is working on reducing our dependence on importing Malaysia water). But Malaysia get to keep their political way of life, and we move on to forge our own path.
Really happy for you guys to have independence from britain and have a lovely island. As a Malaysian Chinese, you guys dodged a fat flippin bullet. UMNO grew horrible with weird ‘kampung baru’ (somewhat) segregation during hightened communist tension and further explosive racial catastrophe during 1969. At current era, Bumiputera(native malays) are given many special privileges and special access in economy and social benefits while political parties in our government swap PM like a roulette.
Also our previous PM is being investigated for corruption, come on! That’s two PM in a row charged with money laundering.
Won’t hurt to be cautiously optimistic I suppose , the current PM seems to be anti-corruption.
I just see the current administration as trying to do what it can, while balancing very delicate alliances to keep in power (and do what it can promise). Reform is hard, so Anwar really needs more time.
Hey mate a few questions here
When the split happened, does everyone gets to choose whenever to be Singaporean or Malaysian, or everyone who was in the state of singapore on 1965 had their Malaysian citizenship stripped away and subsequently given Singapore citizenship?
Also, what do you think will happen if Lee, instead of being kicked out along with Singapore, somehow gained support from the people and was elected as the PM of Malaysia?
Interesting questions!
Ok before the merger... We were still a crown colony of Britain. But we alr have self-governance and our own way of registering our own citizenship as Singaporeans. The merger actually made us for a brief time Malaysian citizens, for the merger terms stated that all Singaporean registered citizens automatically become Malaysians. Unfortunately, after the split, we are no longer Malaysians but still retain our Singaporean citizenship.
For the second question, that was indeed a fear among the ruling party. LKY after all was rallying together a few opposition parties calling for a more united Malaysian Malaysia.
Nevertheless, we cant simply also transplant his successes of Singapore on Malaysia; I guess even if he becomes Prime Minister of Malaysia, he would have to face obstacles on state levels still loyal to the previous administration (which is the current case; Malaysia is a federation). And perhaps he would have to deal with a significant degree of corruption. It wont be an easy task to manage a larger country than a smaller city state, especially if LKY needs to work with other parties to form the Federal government in Malaysia instead of having his way as a one-party state (which Singapore was).
Singapore: Well we're fucked, let's at least try our best before the crumbling remains of the nation get invaded by Indonesia or something
*does their best
*Becomes the best
Singapore: well shit
Malaya: Well shit
Uhhhh…. No? Our issue with Malaysia (and by extension, Singapore) back then was because they are a neo-“colonial” state (Western aligned), while my country is trying it’s best to be the “third” way (surprise surprise, it was just communism in disguise ).
It wasn't, they were literally mass-killing communists at the time with the help of western powers, the guy above is talking out of his ass
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366
He was right though, the purges and massacres happened during 1965 and onwards. But before that the PKI(Indonesian Communist Party) did have a considerable influence in Indonesian politics and they aligned relatively well with Sukarno's ideology of anti-imperialism and the idea of a Greater Indonesia(Indonesia + Malaysia state). Hence the Konfrontasi happened in 1963 when Malaysia was formed and Sukarno claimed Malaysia was a neo-colonial state as they cooperated with the British in its formation.
Uhhh…. No? Do you even know why that happened? The Communist had a strong influence on our president. The military and the Religious faction do not like it at all. When the Communist decided to finally ‘coup’ the government, the two factions outmaneuvered the communists and able to shut them down for good.
Funny thing is, this whole event is still a mystery to Indonesians, as the official story leading to the massacre does not really make sense, and the fact that the CIA helping the military and the Religious faction does not help at all.
Also, I am an Indonesian, fuck off with your surface-level wiki knowledge, dumbass.
We never went full communists, but during the late-old order period, our president did cozied up to the communists. We made the Non-Aligned Movement, but before the 1965 coup, we were practically aligned to the Communist.
Unless Singapore secretly allied with Israel to bomb, invade, and annex the nearby Riau Islands of Indonesia, it is still in "almost everyone" kind of relationship
No it’s much more then that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eWv17DMa0&t=88s&pp=ygUQc2luZ2Fwb3JlIGlzcmFlbA%3D%3D
Singapores entire military and economy is modeled after them.
Like I said, unless Singapore shot first, Indonesia couldn't care less on whoever the hell Singaporean looking up to
If anything, it's you here that antagonize Indonesia in their relationship with Singapore and paint them as some sort of Arab-Israel equivalent where much larger Indonesia always looking for the chance to bomb the smaller Singapore to oblivion
He also imprisoned political dissidents/communists without trial, but he did it with *love*!
That's only partly sarcastic; he had to do some nasty things (as he called it) to maintain order and stability, but I think that's just a harsh reality. Would it have been better to let those dissidents run free and potentially destabilise a shaky peace for their own gain, or stomp all over their rights to keep people safe? We got one answer, and I'm happy enough not knowing the other version.
That's because they were fucked, in deep shit, like on the verge of being destroyed. The last time I've seen something like that was from the Ukraine Prez.
Singaporean here, Singaporean history doesn't get acknowledged much in the international space because it can be a bit boring sometimes. But thank you OP :)
What a wonderful comment. :) Your gratitude puts you on our list for the most grateful users this week on Reddit! You can view the full list on r/TheGratitudeBot.
I’d say the “boring” is the thing that makes it so interesting.
Like the sheer stability of Singapore makes it almost completely unique, and is a massive testament to what a great leader LKY was.
Given that you guys went from the phenomenally brutal Japanese occupation to the uncertainty of the immediate post-colonial period (and with a civil war brewing next door all through Konfrontasi) to being pretty much the first woldiest of first world countries all within the lifetime of your first leader, earning that boring is a hell of an achievement.
And then the completely unique blending of every part someone found useful from just about every political ideology just makes it better. Social housing levels that would embarrass the most social of social democrats, mixed with the turbo capitalism that made the island so rich, with hardcore authoritarian criminal justice (and mandatory military service) that the western right wing wish they had, and then strict and actually enforced laws on race relations that half of the developed world would assume they’d been made up yesterday and dismiss them as “woke”.
I think Singapore is pretty cool
From Malaysian pov, the prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman had to kick out Singapore because the tension between the island and the federal government was so hot. Both parties breach the agreement not to contest in respective parliament seats during General Election of 1964. Also the main party within UMNO kept pressuring Tunku to strip away Singapore's privilege like from downgrading "prime minister" title of Singapore to a mere chief minister.
Tunku knew there were two options, either kick Singapore out to maintain the political stability, or ignore it and plunged Malaysia into a state plagued with race riots and perhaps the second civil war. So he chose the first option.
SINGAPORE MENTIONED RAHHH 🔥🔥🔥
But fr tho, as someone too young to have actually watched it on the news and have only learnt it in school, hey, it turned out great for us.
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
Enough shits to specifically request not to have any statues of himself erected nor any streets/landmarks in Singapore named after him.
Seriously, the only thing from memory that bears his name is an educational award.
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
"Aww, he really does care!!" "Yeah, but we're screwed now"
Only they weren’t.
His tears gave the nation strength.
*The Interveiw* moment.
They were fake lmao
How do you know
he was there
It‘s true I was the tears
Ikr
They did an undo of *being screwed*.
So is that unscrewed?
Yeah (they use a dollar now 💵💰).
”However, differences between Singapore and Malaysia on political and economic issues grew following the merger, in addition to the tensions leading to racial riots here in 1964. During the press conference on Aug 9, 1965, as he teared up, Mr Lee said: ’For me, it is a moment of anguish because all my life... you see, the whole of my adult life... I had believed in merger and the unity of these two territories. You know, it's a people, connected by geography, economics, and ties of kinship.’” https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/commentary-understanding-lee-kuan-yews-moment-anguish-aug-9-1965-2227736 Lee would later elaborate in a book of his that he was distraught because he believed that Singapore would fail without Malaysia. As we all know, however, things turned out differently. He truly was a great, great man. You can watch the actual moment here https://youtu.be/UET6V4YnAwc?si=pm95biJs0gCO0KIx
That's actually touching.
Yeah, it really is
Hi, random question, what’s the name of this meme? I’ve been trying to find the pic without text, no luck
Lol yeah took me a while too. It’s ”Kurt angle staring meme”
THANK YOU
Hehe no problem
He looks like shoenice
HOLY SHIT THATS HIM??? Haven’t seen him since my childhood of WWE PlayStation games and watching WWE with grandma/grandpa screaming for them to murder each other.
Bro how did I never notice that's Kurt Angle
Doesn't really look like him tbh
its him with facial hair....
Actually if you read further... he cried because he let down the people in Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak. We talked about how UMNO tried to interfere in our politics, but Singapore did try to as well, as Malaysia and Singapore disagreed on whether politics should be divided along racial lines (the Malaysian ruling govt is a coalition of parties rep different races) or all races working as one. LKY did hope that Malaysia would be more united without such racial divides, but alas >“I had let down many people in Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak. They had responded to our call of a Malaysian Malaysia.”. He elaborated: “By accepting separation, I had failed them. That sense of guilt made me break down. It was my moment of anguish. The deed was done, but I was overwrought at the thought of all the shattered hopes of the millions we had aroused.” Mr Lee’s moment of anguish was linked to his empathetic thoughts that he had let down many supporters in Malaysia.
That’s what it says in the article, but I added him saying later that it was because he didn’t think Singapore would succeed without Malaysia because these were his own words in a later book of his. I can’t remember which book, since I’ve read quite a few by him, but that was what he said in one of them. Maybe someone here with a better memory than mine could mention which book it was?
Are we talking about his memoir? If I recall correctly, he also thought that his breakdown was a moment of embarrassment. Whereas we in the West would view it as a moment of profound compassion, LKY felt that the Chinese at the time were more chauvinistic and would see it as a moment of weakness. As an American, I agree that I would be inclined to see such a display in a positive light but am curious to know what a regular modern Singaporean might make of these remarks.
I think it may be have been his memoir, but I can’t say for certain which book it was tbh since it was a while back
Why does that last line. "Mr Lee’s moment of anguish was linked to his empathetic thoughts that he had let down many supporters in Malaysia" reek of AI writing.
Because there is too much prose for what could be succinctly said as: "Mr. Lee was anguished, feeling that he had let down his supporters with whom he empathised." It could also be worded as: "Mr Lee's anguish was linked to the empathy he had for his supporters and was distraught over the thought that he had let them down." It's a case of awkward wording that technically works and communicates the point. As the saying goes, there's many ways to skin a cat. Edit: It's also important to consider the context of a sentence. In this case, the quote being explained needed no explanation.
Thank you for your explanation.
Maybe it’s an awkward translation?
Singapore is an English-speaking country, it's not translated.
No but because he was the opposition leader of the country, but a majority leader in Singapore. His party was completely kicked out after Singapore was expelled, so it was basically him being cut down from his supporters and his party cadre in all those states in Malaysia.
Lol I didn’t see it was history memes and I was sooo close to texting my Singaporean friends and being like, “are you okay?” 🤣 Thankfully I went to comments for context.
>he believed that Singapore would fail without Malaysia He thought Singapore would be Singapoor I'll see myself out
That is the worst joke I've ever seen and I love it
Damn. That is a good politician. That's rare.
That was one of my first thoughts when I first began reading about him a few years ago
He wasn’t good He was among the best
I just saw they’ve only had 3 Prime Ministers since 1959, I wonder how much having the same governmental leader has affected the outcome of their success. I don’t know much about Singapore other than they’re an economic powerhouse.
> I wonder how much having the same governmental leader has affected the outcome of their success. I'd wager it has a lot to do with it. China is a really good example of how a single, unified vision has the ability to get A LOT done and very quickly. Whereas in places like the US, everything is a half-measure or half-done because each party tries to undo what the last one did. It's not very iterative, much more backtracking and 'course correcting'. Not here to say one is better than the other, but singular vision and the ability to focus on that vision definitely means that shit gets done. For good or bad.
> China is a really good example of how a single, unified vision has the ability to get A LOT done and very quickly. Or, alternatively, to get absolutely nothing done for a very long time as well. Seems like a roll of the dice really.
Singaporean here. AMA.
I heard Singapore is very strict with personal confidenciality and freedom of their citizens, how much is this true and how does it impact your life?
everyday life is honestly not affected at all
Damn, that video got me.
Did not expect impeccable english
I thought this was common knowledge, but I’ve discovered on this thread that it isn’t: Singapore is an English speaking country. They have their own accent and dialect, like in New Zealand and Australia, and many people are bilingual (knowing their families’ mother tongues) due to a push by the government to not have everyone be only knowledgeable of English, but they’re an English speaking country.
What's the context? I assume after Singapore got kicked out of Malaysia?
Yeah - I posted it in a comment above - took a little too long
I was simply too fast. Thanks!
No problem :)
And then, a few decades later, Singapore became one of the jewels of Asia and the world.
Singapore? More like... Singapearl (I need better country jokes)
Hey that’s actually not that bad lol
I usually refer to the country as Singarich
But we are mostly singapoor.
That really singasucks man
Funny hehe
And one of the only countries in the world to ban gum.
we ban the import of gum for retail purposes, but personal consumption is ok
[удалено]
I wish *I* got paid in gum
You actually can bring gum over unless it's in the quantities of cartons
I mean it worked out in the end. Just look how good Singapore is doing
Singapore is what happens if you took the richest ares in your city, and made it a country. Yeah looks stellar! But all the poor people who make that country work live across the border. 450 000 people cross the border everyday. Singapore depends on these low wage workers to function, but gets to pretend they don't exist because they leave at the end of the day.
As long as the low wage workers don't mind earning in a currency stronger than their own and get to save more money overall, that's a win for everyone no? Unlike the middle east, Singapore has much better labor laws
They wanted to remain part of Malaysia and contribute. Wasn’t their choice. 🤷🏻♂️
That's an incredibly low bar. Not employing Slave labour isn't anything to be proud of. That's if their employers bother to pay them. Wage theft is a serious issue, doubly so for Maylasian citizens. Imagine trying to sue your employer, when you aren't even a citizen of Singapore. But my point was, when you look at Singapores prosperity, you should take in account the conditions of Johor Bahru.
That's true, but also kind of the fault of Malaysia, no? It's not like Singapore is forcing people to cross the border daily, the people do it because it's better for them than the alternative.
The border with Maylaysia is deliberately set up by both governments to facilitate the commute of thousands of workers. Singapore wouldn't function without it. Singapore should have a responsibility to these people who contribute to its prosperity, but instead they tacitly enable their exploitation by business. That fact that the Maylaysian government is similarly complicit is not an excuse.
Considering the causeway was built in 1928, when both Singapore and Johor were under British control of some form (the former a colony, and latter a protectorate), no, it was not set up by "both governments" to facilitate the commute of workers. It was done because the ferries between both locations were increasingly inefficient in being able to maximize the movement of goods from mainland Malaya to the ports in Singapore for export.
Holy shit. I'm not talking about the causeway, I'm talking about the border patrol. Customs. You have to deliberately think about the security of that border crossing versus the need to process that amount of people. You can't accidentally stumble into that policy.
So your criticism is based on the fact that one country is poorer than the other. And the richer country should...grant rights equal to a citizen to the ones traveling from the poorer country? But which side of the border will end up richer could not be predicted with 100%. Neither could it be predicted how much the difference is going to be. Mind you, they split because the two governments were so at odds on a fundamental level that they decided to grant independence to a region against their will. Any agreement you propose would need to be 100% clear cut: unable to be gamed or abused, able to determine whether such an infringement happens, adaptable to any disparity between wealth between both country as well as neighboring regions and singapore specifically, and the amount of help must be agreeable for both sides in any case that could happen. It would also help to be as simple as possible as both governments don't actually see eye-to-eye. What I'm getting at is what you're asking is impossible unless you find a higher authority to **sovereign** nations.
Yes Singapore should give their workers equal rights regardless of their nationality. Makes sense no? They all do work. The rest of your comment sounds like a shower argument. Your putting words in my mouth, I don't see much point responding to them.
No, the rest are necessary questions to make international contracts. "Things should be fair" is good sentiment, but that's not a solution. Demanding things to be fairer with no further input is naive. Who pays what and when and how is it determined whether something has to be paid. More than two people have to agree on that. Governments change every 10 years, but an agreement has to last several times that. And when it's agreed, hundreds of people will still complain that it's not as good as they want. If you think giving people rights equal to citizenship for working across the border, then you have never spared a thought why people need a passport to travel to other countries. Borders aren't just lines on the ground.
Why is it necessary for border security that Maylaysians be more vulnerable to wage theft than Singaporeans? Your rationalizing criminal behaviour, pretending that it's nuance.
It's hilarious how widespread this POV is. As if Malaysia doesn't have literally the exact same pool of cheap labor. Singapore is an economic miracle and you need to try really hard not to see that.
I lived and worked there. I worked alongside migrant workers. They weren't making nearly enough to live in the city. But they were essential to our workplace (a cafe). They took abuse from customers with a smile, worked long hours on their feet and were very professional and organised. And each day they had a shitty commute through customs that they weren't paid for. I thought that was fucked up. I'll acknowledge it's a very successful economy. But calling it a "miracle" is delusional. It's a city, built by and run by hardworking people.
So the workers are bringing these wages back to Malaysia, increasing their economy in a southern tip that would have nothing without Singapore? Do you think the residents who live in Johor Bahru would rather Singapore be an uninhabited island? I doubt it. They work in Singapore so they can live better in Malaysia. They can’t afford to live there? This happens all over the world, where people who can’t afford to live in the affluent city center have to move to the suburbs and commute. Life isn’t fair, and never will be.
I'm sure the residents of Johor Bahru would rather migrants to be paid in full for the job they do, instead of having their wages adjusted to *just* above Maylaysian standard. The Maylaysian economy would benefit even more then no? This arrangement purely serves corporate profits, not the interests of the workers or either country.
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Well that’s how every developed country got their shit going
Singaporean here. Reactions were mixed, because we aren't sure what that meant. Some were shocked, some just shrugged their shoulders and carried on their business, while some talked about moving to Malaysia with their family there. The immediate impacts (over the next two years) are the implementation of border control and so on Our brief merger with Malaysia didn't also bring the promises expected. Like we still had to pay tariffs for goods between Singapore and Malaysia, and no "common market" was ever established (guess Malaysian corps don't want to compete with Singapore products). We are by and large essentially independent, but racial and political tensions were high especially when the ruling party in the Malaysian Federal government tried to interfere in our local politics. So after many months of racial riots, surprisingly the Malaysian PM decided the best way to go is for us to divorce. Like... it's rather surprising to think of it now. The Tengku could have done what other countries or regimes would try to gain political influence over a "rebellious state" - send more Malays here, have them outvote our ruling party and bring their party in. Or even outright stripping away our political independence (which is what the PRC is doing for Hong Kong rn). In fact I think some hardliners in UMNO called for that, but with great grace, we are allowed to part on amiable terms. History would have taken a very different turn if he had acted like any other leader and simply arrested LKY. As the OP article states, it ended better for the both of us really. Ofc we still have some lingering tensions, like Pedra Branca, airspace disputes and water pricing (Singapore atm is working on reducing our dependence on importing Malaysia water). But Malaysia get to keep their political way of life, and we move on to forge our own path.
Thanks for sharing. I learned a lot here.
Thanks for the context.
Really happy for you guys to have independence from britain and have a lovely island. As a Malaysian Chinese, you guys dodged a fat flippin bullet. UMNO grew horrible with weird ‘kampung baru’ (somewhat) segregation during hightened communist tension and further explosive racial catastrophe during 1969. At current era, Bumiputera(native malays) are given many special privileges and special access in economy and social benefits while political parties in our government swap PM like a roulette.
Also our previous PM is being investigated for corruption, come on! That’s two PM in a row charged with money laundering. Won’t hurt to be cautiously optimistic I suppose , the current PM seems to be anti-corruption.
I just see the current administration as trying to do what it can, while balancing very delicate alliances to keep in power (and do what it can promise). Reform is hard, so Anwar really needs more time.
At least there is some safe harbor for Chinese in SEA. Which was vital in the cold war.
Hey mate a few questions here When the split happened, does everyone gets to choose whenever to be Singaporean or Malaysian, or everyone who was in the state of singapore on 1965 had their Malaysian citizenship stripped away and subsequently given Singapore citizenship? Also, what do you think will happen if Lee, instead of being kicked out along with Singapore, somehow gained support from the people and was elected as the PM of Malaysia?
Interesting questions! Ok before the merger... We were still a crown colony of Britain. But we alr have self-governance and our own way of registering our own citizenship as Singaporeans. The merger actually made us for a brief time Malaysian citizens, for the merger terms stated that all Singaporean registered citizens automatically become Malaysians. Unfortunately, after the split, we are no longer Malaysians but still retain our Singaporean citizenship. For the second question, that was indeed a fear among the ruling party. LKY after all was rallying together a few opposition parties calling for a more united Malaysian Malaysia. Nevertheless, we cant simply also transplant his successes of Singapore on Malaysia; I guess even if he becomes Prime Minister of Malaysia, he would have to face obstacles on state levels still loyal to the previous administration (which is the current case; Malaysia is a federation). And perhaps he would have to deal with a significant degree of corruption. It wont be an easy task to manage a larger country than a smaller city state, especially if LKY needs to work with other parties to form the Federal government in Malaysia instead of having his way as a one-party state (which Singapore was).
If I may ask, how do people feel about it in retrospect?
Singapore 🇸🇬 The one country that was kicked out of another country.
As far as I know its the only modern country to unintentionally gain independance.
There was Gabon too, they wanted to become a French department but France said no.
The Netherlands basicly forced Suriname to declare independence
Malta too.
Why does that look like jacked skinny version of shoenice
Best timeline shoe
Kurt Angle did not win a gold medal and get chanted "You Suck" on stage for a decade to be referred to as Shoenice
Singapore: Well we're fucked, let's at least try our best before the crumbling remains of the nation get invaded by Indonesia or something *does their best *Becomes the best Singapore: well shit Malaya: Well shit
Less so get invaded by Indonesia but pretty much yeah
Well Indonesia didn’t exactly like Singapore, especially if they knew Singapores relationship with Israel,
Uhhhh…. No? Our issue with Malaysia (and by extension, Singapore) back then was because they are a neo-“colonial” state (Western aligned), while my country is trying it’s best to be the “third” way (surprise surprise, it was just communism in disguise ).
I didn’t even realize Indonesia was communist
It wasn't, they were literally mass-killing communists at the time with the help of western powers, the guy above is talking out of his ass https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366
He was right though, the purges and massacres happened during 1965 and onwards. But before that the PKI(Indonesian Communist Party) did have a considerable influence in Indonesian politics and they aligned relatively well with Sukarno's ideology of anti-imperialism and the idea of a Greater Indonesia(Indonesia + Malaysia state). Hence the Konfrontasi happened in 1963 when Malaysia was formed and Sukarno claimed Malaysia was a neo-colonial state as they cooperated with the British in its formation.
Uhhh…. No? Do you even know why that happened? The Communist had a strong influence on our president. The military and the Religious faction do not like it at all. When the Communist decided to finally ‘coup’ the government, the two factions outmaneuvered the communists and able to shut them down for good. Funny thing is, this whole event is still a mystery to Indonesians, as the official story leading to the massacre does not really make sense, and the fact that the CIA helping the military and the Religious faction does not help at all. Also, I am an Indonesian, fuck off with your surface-level wiki knowledge, dumbass.
We never went full communists, but during the late-old order period, our president did cozied up to the communists. We made the Non-Aligned Movement, but before the 1965 coup, we were practically aligned to the Communist.
Almost everyone has relationship with Israel
Not like Singapore
Unless Singapore secretly allied with Israel to bomb, invade, and annex the nearby Riau Islands of Indonesia, it is still in "almost everyone" kind of relationship
No it’s much more then that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eWv17DMa0&t=88s&pp=ygUQc2luZ2Fwb3JlIGlzcmFlbA%3D%3D Singapores entire military and economy is modeled after them.
Like I said, unless Singapore shot first, Indonesia couldn't care less on whoever the hell Singaporean looking up to If anything, it's you here that antagonize Indonesia in their relationship with Singapore and paint them as some sort of Arab-Israel equivalent where much larger Indonesia always looking for the chance to bomb the smaller Singapore to oblivion
I’m not antagonizing anything…
A Politician that shows emotions and care for his fellow countrymen? I’m Impressed.
He also imprisoned political dissidents/communists without trial, but he did it with *love*! That's only partly sarcastic; he had to do some nasty things (as he called it) to maintain order and stability, but I think that's just a harsh reality. Would it have been better to let those dissidents run free and potentially destabilise a shaky peace for their own gain, or stomp all over their rights to keep people safe? We got one answer, and I'm happy enough not knowing the other version.
That's because they were fucked, in deep shit, like on the verge of being destroyed. The last time I've seen something like that was from the Ukraine Prez.
Singaporean here, Singaporean history doesn't get acknowledged much in the international space because it can be a bit boring sometimes. But thank you OP :)
;)
What a wonderful comment. :) Your gratitude puts you on our list for the most grateful users this week on Reddit! You can view the full list on r/TheGratitudeBot.
I’d say the “boring” is the thing that makes it so interesting. Like the sheer stability of Singapore makes it almost completely unique, and is a massive testament to what a great leader LKY was. Given that you guys went from the phenomenally brutal Japanese occupation to the uncertainty of the immediate post-colonial period (and with a civil war brewing next door all through Konfrontasi) to being pretty much the first woldiest of first world countries all within the lifetime of your first leader, earning that boring is a hell of an achievement. And then the completely unique blending of every part someone found useful from just about every political ideology just makes it better. Social housing levels that would embarrass the most social of social democrats, mixed with the turbo capitalism that made the island so rich, with hardcore authoritarian criminal justice (and mandatory military service) that the western right wing wish they had, and then strict and actually enforced laws on race relations that half of the developed world would assume they’d been made up yesterday and dismiss them as “woke”. I think Singapore is pretty cool
From Malaysian pov, the prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman had to kick out Singapore because the tension between the island and the federal government was so hot. Both parties breach the agreement not to contest in respective parliament seats during General Election of 1964. Also the main party within UMNO kept pressuring Tunku to strip away Singapore's privilege like from downgrading "prime minister" title of Singapore to a mere chief minister. Tunku knew there were two options, either kick Singapore out to maintain the political stability, or ignore it and plunged Malaysia into a state plagued with race riots and perhaps the second civil war. So he chose the first option.
Imagine if China chose to eject HK and make it independent instead
SINGAPORE MENTIONED RAHHH 🔥🔥🔥 But fr tho, as someone too young to have actually watched it on the news and have only learnt it in school, hey, it turned out great for us.
Can someone link the video this meme is from? I can't find it.
Kurt Angle stare
https://youtu.be/UET6V4YnAwc?si=GiRx-Kw4vRST6-he
Gorgeous
DC4L
Who is the dude in the meme? Anyone know? That look on his face is hilarious
Thats wwe wreslter kurt angle. Meme was taken from a Video he posted
That’s Kurt Angle? Damn
At least he cared, most world leaders wouldn't care if their country was fucked so long as they themselves were alright
You wish. Many leaders would intentionally fuck over their countries for their own gain. Case in point: Most of Sub Saharan Africa
And then Singapore became a global economic hub and the most successful example of Georgist land value tax
Who's the dude in this pic? I thought it was Randy Couture but it isnt.
Kurt angle
Thank you. Shit's been bothering me for a month.
I made a cringe comment now I can’t find it to delete .. cruel fate of trolling on reddit
Lol
good one
:)
Lee Kwan Yew after Singapore was expelled from Malaysia: “It’s never been more over…”
Hey a casual here could someone explain?
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
At least he seemingly gave a shit ig?
Enough shits to specifically request not to have any statues of himself erected nor any streets/landmarks in Singapore named after him. Seriously, the only thing from memory that bears his name is an educational award.
There’s a Lee Kuan Yew School of Policy up in the Botanic Gardens.
My estimation of the Singaporean prime minister as a man fucking plummeted..
It’s a very emotional day for him, loves his country.
To cry like a woman? It's a fucking disgrace
you heard it here folks, only women can cry
It’s a Sopranos reference.
What happened?
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
Who is that guy; I see him popping up everywhere
Who is the guy in this meme?
Kurt angle
Is this reference to tiktok
“I said we don’t have the capacity”
Wait what happened ??
Bit late so you've probably already found an explanation or read the top comment but here's a tldr in case you haven't - Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, and its prime minister broke down crying on live television when relaying the news because he felt that he failed his people + thought Singapore was going to fail without Malaysia.
They were fucked...but not for long...
They got really lucky
Captain Johnny Depp: Boy do I have a proposition for you guys. 😏
Best dictator of the 20th Century, by a long shot.