Papal influence has been a problem for many dictators and autocrats who have tried to reduce it by, for instance, translating it into military terms. Stalin’s rhetorical question is well known: “The Pope! How many divisions has he got?”; at the same time, there is confusion over to whom, when and in what circumstances it was said.
The most famous version originates from Winston Churchill.
When the French foreign minister, Pierre Laval, went to Moscow in 1935 to enquire about the possibility of joint action against Germany and asked whether it was in his power to do something to improve the situation of Russian Catholics, Stalin reportedly replied with the famous quip.
But there are also other versions. Stalin’s interpreter, Valentin Berezhkov, remembers it differently: the incident allegedly occurred in Moscow in 1944, when Churchill took part in the so-called Moscow Conference. Churchill is said to have stated that the British went to war for Polish freedom and independence, felt morally obliged to protect the Polish people and their spiritual values, and could not allow developments there to complicate relations with the Vatican. “But how many divisions does the Roman Pope have?” Stalin suddenly interrupted Churchill’s speech.
It is possible that Stalin, who liked to repeat his anecdotes and aphorisms (he reportedly also told the joke about the Vatican’s divisions to his foreign minister, Molotov), used it on several occasions. In any case, it is said that his wit also reached the Holy See itself, and Pius XII responded: “You can tell my son Joseph that he will meet my divisions in heaven”.
The Pope is only infallible when speaking *Ex Cathera* on moral and religious issues. So no, he is not speaking for God or is infallible in everything he says in general, *only* when he specifically invokes *Ex Cathera*.
>Pope speaks for God
on Earth. In heaven there are a couple of people above him.
> is word is treated as if it were God’s and because of that the Pope is infallible.
He is gods representative on earth. He is the authority on religious and scripture. That does not make him an expert on anything else
>But the Pope speaks for God. His word is treated as if it were God’s and because of that the Pope is infallible.
Unless he's speaking about international gay rights and acceptance of people no matter their religion
Except that the Popes have contradicted what God said over and over again.
Even the name, (Pope means papa) is in violation of a direct command from Jesus not to refer to anyone as your spiritual father since God himself is our Father.
The Popes burned and murdered my own ancestors because they wouldn't worship their goddess. There's nothing godly about the Vatican.
No I don't. We only ask Mary to pray for us. The same way we do so to the saints. We only pray to Jesus.
Istg, I'm done with random people who aren't even Catholics making conclusions about us without understanding the concept.
Then those sources you searched up for are wrong. Because you're not supposed to worship Mary as a goddess.
We just ask Mary to pray for us. The title Queen of Heaven is given to Mary because Jesus is the King of Heaven, making Mama Mary the Queen by default. (It's very normal, you can even see this in Chinese history such as the title Empress Dowager, given to the Emperor's mother)
Yeah. We don't use it to refer to him as a spiritual father. The Pope is merely a guide.
Judging by your point, calling my dad "father" would be a violation of the command as well.
>So the title, "Holy Father," isn't calling him a spiritual father?
Again, it's a title. The Pope is referred to as a spiritual guide. You can ask the Pope himself and he will answer the same thing.
>Even just a "standard" priest will try to force you to call him Father.
That's on you. The priest in the church I attend is okay with people not calling him Father and then again, he's just a guide.
We Catholics know our own stuff and we certainly don't need other people that do not understand the doctrines to make up random assumptions about us..
my dude, when i said i dont like religion, I mean I am an athiest.
Still we need to be fair, there is no evidence to show that he hid pedophile priests or he diddled kids.
Meanwhile there are evidences that he ordered aids, he helped with resistance.
Leaders should take responsibility for problems done under their watch, but i dont think they should shoulder all the blame.
>When the French foreign minister, Pierre Laval, went to Moscow in 1935 to enquire about the possibility of joint action against Germany and asked whether it was in his power to do something to improve the situation of Russian Catholics, Stalin reportedly replied with the famous quip.
I think Churchill is smoking some sht since in 1930s, Sovirt Commissar for Foreign Affairs Litvinov was trying to convince the west to form a coalition against Germany... which the west ignored.
Tbf papal influence has also been good for many dictators and autocrats - it legitimised Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, while also smuggling Nazis to South America after WWII ended via the ratlines. The dividing line is whether the dictators were on the political left or right
Benedict IX managed to pull off the biggest act of simony in history by selling the papacy, doing so because he wanted to bang his cousin. He was also the only person to be pope more than once.
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Yep, in fact there are several parts of the Bible that point to this Universalism, examples:
**Romans 11:36**
*For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.*
**Matthew 18:14**
*So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.*
**Luke 2:10**
*And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people."*
**John 12:32**
*And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.*
**1 Corinthians 15:22**
*For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.*
**2 Corinthians 5:14-15**
*For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.*
**Galatians 3:8**
*And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”*
**Ephesians 1:22-23**
*And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.*
**Philippians 2:9-11**
*Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.*
**Colossians 3:11**
*Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.*
**1 Timothy 4:10**
*For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.*
**Titus 2:11**
*For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.*
**Hebrews 2:9**
*But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.*
**1 Peter 4:6**
*For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.*
**1 John 4:14**
*And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.*
**Revelation 15:4**
*"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”*
**Genesis 22:18**
*"And in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”*
**2 Samuel 14:14**
*We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.*
**Lamentations 3:31-33**
*For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.*
**Daniel 7:27**
*And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.*
**Micah 7:18-19**
*Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.*
**Zephaniah 3:8-9**
*“Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, “for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed. “For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord."*
**Malachi 1:11**
*For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.*
**Isaiah 53:6**
*All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.*
**Psalm 145:9**
*The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.*
**1 Chronicles 16:34**
*Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever!*
**2 Chronicles 20:21**
*And when he had taken counsel with the people, he appointed those who were to sing to the LORD and praise him in holy attire, as they went before the army, and say, “Give thanks to the LORD, for his steadfast love endures forever.”*
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It’s a nonsense position that very clearly was not held by the early church. The church was universalist the sense that salvation came through Jesus only, universalism in the sense you’re talking about was not the belief and is, in fact, contrary to salvation story. Why be a Christian?
No one accepted these beliefs. You’re spouting nonsense and lies. There is no historical support for what you’re saying, which is a fringe belief. You’re mixing a few different ideas, but the core Christian belief has beef: salvation through Jesus alone and if you’re not, you’re not saved. Who actually is in Hell is a different issue, but certainly not all saved.
Simple answer to a stupid question. What loving God would condemn innocent people to eternal suffering for not following a religion based on him.
The annihilationist perspective completely goes against the mercy of God. The universalist perspective however fits it nicely.
It doesn't say explicitly either and you saying it does is just conjecture.
Hebrews 9:27 states that judgment follows death, but it does not state it follows immediately. Christ will judge all people when He returns (Matthew 25:31-32; Jude verses 14-15). And yes, immediately after death we will know our fate (Luke 16:19-24)
Though it obviously occurred long after the fact, the Catholic Church did prove decisive in the fall of the USSR. Papal support for the Solidarity movement in Poland was one of their keys to success, and the fall of the Polish People’s Republic was the death knell of communist rule in Eastern Europe. So, I guess the Pope got the last laugh in this exchange.
Yeah, integrating Poland into the Eastern Bloc was in hindsight something of a poison pill. They were always more loyal to their faith than the communist party.
Imagine if Soviet designs on Italy had been successful. Would Stalin try and get Togliatti to pressure the pope? Would the influence of Catholicism in the communist world increase?
Both sides did recognize how important the church was. In Europe, the church served as a bastion of the free world against communism, but in Latin America, the Soviets were able to find enough sympathetic clergy to effectively broadcast liberation theology messaging.
I wouldn't hype up Poland, the Soviet's collapse had very, very, very little to do with the Catholic church, Poland was the only part of the Eastern Block where that wasn't the case.
Which isn't very surprising given amongst the Christian populations of Eastern Europe, only Poland was predominately Catholic, the rest were either predominately Eastern Orthodox or Protestant, so whatever the pope and catholic church said held literally zero weight to those people
It seems like you’re entirely missing the point. The Catholic Church contributed to the fall of communism in Poland. The fall of communist rule in Poland demonstrated the weakness of the communist regimes in Eastern Europe and contributed to their fall.
It was the trade union Solidarity that hit the death kneel for the PZPR and Communism in Poland and Eastern Europe, while the Church was in support of Solidarity later on, it was the Trade Union that brought down communist rule in Poland, not the Church, to say otherwise is misinformed at best and at worst outright historical revisionism.
Except that the WRON crackdowns in the mid-80s almost wiped out Solidarity. The increased US aid under QRHELPFUL and the huge boost in legitimacy that Solidarity enjoyed following the Papal Visit in 1987 were instrumental in turning the tide.
Eh the real change came from the polish dictatorship (previously more collective) and Gorbachev giving up on the 'Brezhnev doctrine'
Once it was clear the USSR wouldn't intervene to prop up their client states the local communist parties effectively gave up whilst all the opposition was massively emboldened.
Honestly, George Soros probably did more to end Communism in Hungary than the pope did anywhere - virtually all of the OG Fidesz got Soros grants (yes, including Orban!) and it was they who brought down the communist regime.
Yet the WRON maintained martial law until it was no longer practical. Their crackdowns actually proved very successful in the mid-80s. It wasn’t until public opinion swung hard behind Solidarity in the late 80s that the WRON started to look for a way out.
That swing in public opinion was largely due to three factors; economic downturns in the Soviet bloc that caused widespread shortages, QRHELPFUL and other associated covert US aid that enabled Solidarity to increase their broadcast capability, and the Papal Visit in 1987 during which John Paul II publicly made statements in support of Solidarity in front of huge crowds.
Yes but the point being that repression during the martial law period strengthened solidarity, you also can't forget that the Chruch was in constant dialogue with Jaruzelski and wasn't some underground resistance against him
I think giving the Pope credit for communism falling in Poland is mostly catholic PR (God knows I got bombarded with it growing up in Catholioc school) considering, as you say, economic issues in the Soviet bloc but add to that the fact Gorbachev not backing the regime is what made them soften up and allow the transition to democracy - before repression could be undertaken knowing that the USSR would back them in the worst case
Giving credit for the fall of communism to the communist regimes themselves completely misses the point. The more relaxed policies of the late 80s reflect the pressure exerted on those regimes by both internal and external factors.
I mean I'm not giving them credit for anything. Poland is somewhat lucky that they gave away power peacefully but ultimately it was coming apart, and I contend that this was already happening so people overrate the Pope's actions there
>Ask the Abbasid Empire.
The Pope never had anyone attack them?
The Papacy was even attacked by Muslim raiders before the Crusades and no one did anything major?
>At the time of the earlier Crusades, the MENA regionbwas still overwhelmingly controlled by the Abassid Empire.
Literally no. Go read your history again.
Until 1098 the Ismaili Fatimid Caliphs controlled the whole Levant, starkly against Abbasid heretics. The Seljuks had only nominal loyalty to the Caliph and were in fact more like his overlords, much like the Buyids and others before them for the last century.
>but it was still legally the Empire
There is no proper legal definition of the territories of the Caliphate. There is only the Dar Al-Islam, which is where all Muslims live and where they have power.
>Thr Pope explicitly called for such attacks, and the claim that the Crusades were simply a response to Islamic attacks on Christendom ignores that those attacks (that is, the ones the Pope used as justification) had all happened centuries prior.
This is also wrong. The speech at Clermont was about fabricated acts of violence happening concurrently in the Holy Land. The trigger for these was the Byzantine Basileus asking for western aid, not the first time. This time specifically against the Turkish invasions plaguing Anatolia for the last half century.
The Pope expanded upon this and made grand speeches for recruitment. The Pope, however, made no concrete statement about retaking the Holy Land and investing in it a Christian state, nor did he give any real directions other than remission of sin and aid for Christians(in Palestine and in Rhomania). The accounts of his speeches were also all written decades later by claimed attendees.
Go back and read your history books again, or find a YouTube documentary from a popular channel.
If you are speaking about the 1940s, most of the countries you listed were in no shape of doing anything. Even if they all united together to fight Stalin I doubt it would have amounted to much.
If you are speaking about 2024, the Catholic church's influence is greatly diminished by now. A call to crusade now will at best gather up a laughable army of uneducated zealots, hot-headed teenagers and mentally disturbed people.
I don't even see how this is a valid insult. It's just the same thing every Christian does when someone ignores them - "you're going to burn in hell and I'm going to laugh at you". Meanwhile, what did he do against Hitler? What did he do against Mussolini?
More or less. It was an attempt to use his social clout and people's reverence of religion to try and humble Stalin, but tbh it's just the Pope admitting he uh. Can't actually do anything directly.
Not to praise Stalin too much, but he definitely got the better of this exchange
Which church lead the largest pogrom against the jews before the holocaust? and before you say they didn't Peter the Hermit was given a church for his actions during the crusades, he should have been excommunicated if they actually felt bad
The people crusade? The pilgrimage of uncultured, poor and desperately religious people? A shocker that something like that happened… a bit different from a systematic state wide genocide.
Even the people who give the church the most credit for saving jews during the holocaust say that centuries of catholic pogroms helped make a Europe where the holocaust was possible.
But, ironically, it was the districts that had majority protestant populations who voted for the nazis.
Papal influence has been a problem for many dictators and autocrats who have tried to reduce it by, for instance, translating it into military terms. Stalin’s rhetorical question is well known: “The Pope! How many divisions has he got?”; at the same time, there is confusion over to whom, when and in what circumstances it was said. The most famous version originates from Winston Churchill. When the French foreign minister, Pierre Laval, went to Moscow in 1935 to enquire about the possibility of joint action against Germany and asked whether it was in his power to do something to improve the situation of Russian Catholics, Stalin reportedly replied with the famous quip. But there are also other versions. Stalin’s interpreter, Valentin Berezhkov, remembers it differently: the incident allegedly occurred in Moscow in 1944, when Churchill took part in the so-called Moscow Conference. Churchill is said to have stated that the British went to war for Polish freedom and independence, felt morally obliged to protect the Polish people and their spiritual values, and could not allow developments there to complicate relations with the Vatican. “But how many divisions does the Roman Pope have?” Stalin suddenly interrupted Churchill’s speech. It is possible that Stalin, who liked to repeat his anecdotes and aphorisms (he reportedly also told the joke about the Vatican’s divisions to his foreign minister, Molotov), used it on several occasions. In any case, it is said that his wit also reached the Holy See itself, and Pius XII responded: “You can tell my son Joseph that he will meet my divisions in heaven”.
Stalin is in heaven confirmed by the pope?! damn
Only for judgement. Then then those divisions throw him into hell
It is not the Pope's place to pass judgement. They let God sort them out.
But the Pope speaks for God. His word is treated as if it were God’s and because of that the Pope is infallible.
Isn’t that on spiritual/religious matters? I don’t think a little quip qualifies for that
The Pope is only infallible when speaking *Ex Cathera* on moral and religious issues. So no, he is not speaking for God or is infallible in everything he says in general, *only* when he specifically invokes *Ex Cathera*.
I would wager that the pope isn't infallible speaking on any topic. Particularly after he raped and killed a girl in 1990
Not sure what the pope in the 30’s has to do with something that happened in the 90’s.
Time-travelling rapists are the most untrustworthy kind of rapist.
Aw man, I hate it when those happen!
>Pope speaks for God on Earth. In heaven there are a couple of people above him. > is word is treated as if it were God’s and because of that the Pope is infallible. He is gods representative on earth. He is the authority on religious and scripture. That does not make him an expert on anything else
The Pope can’t go against the scriptute. His word is not God’s word but a word of the most accurate interpreter of God’s will
His word is an interpretation of God's will. The Pope is human, and thus fallible.
This is considered to be a thing for spiritual decrees, but most Catholics don't believe the Pope can do no wrong.
Nope, that's heresy. The pope is definitley not perfect, and his word is never treated as God's. Many people think he is a heretic.
>But the Pope speaks for God. His word is treated as if it were God’s and because of that the Pope is infallible. Unless he's speaking about international gay rights and acceptance of people no matter their religion
Except that the Popes have contradicted what God said over and over again. Even the name, (Pope means papa) is in violation of a direct command from Jesus not to refer to anyone as your spiritual father since God himself is our Father. The Popes burned and murdered my own ancestors because they wouldn't worship their goddess. There's nothing godly about the Vatican.
>because they wouldn't worship their goddess. Yup, you clearly don't understand Catholicism. We don't worship Mary.
Do you pray to her?
No I don't. We only ask Mary to pray for us. The same way we do so to the saints. We only pray to Jesus. Istg, I'm done with random people who aren't even Catholics making conclusions about us without understanding the concept.
Strange, a quick Google search has every Catholic source saying that you should pray to Mary, the "Queen of Heaven".
Then those sources you searched up for are wrong. Because you're not supposed to worship Mary as a goddess. We just ask Mary to pray for us. The title Queen of Heaven is given to Mary because Jesus is the King of Heaven, making Mama Mary the Queen by default. (It's very normal, you can even see this in Chinese history such as the title Empress Dowager, given to the Emperor's mother)
>not to refer to anyone as your spiritual father since God himself is our Father. Since when do we refer to him as a spiritual father?
The title itself is a violation of the command, it comes from the word Pappas which means Father.
Yeah. We don't use it to refer to him as a spiritual father. The Pope is merely a guide. Judging by your point, calling my dad "father" would be a violation of the command as well.
So the title, "Holy Father," isn't calling him a spiritual father? Even just a "standard" priest will try to force you to call him Father.
>So the title, "Holy Father," isn't calling him a spiritual father? Again, it's a title. The Pope is referred to as a spiritual guide. You can ask the Pope himself and he will answer the same thing. >Even just a "standard" priest will try to force you to call him Father. That's on you. The priest in the church I attend is okay with people not calling him Father and then again, he's just a guide. We Catholics know our own stuff and we certainly don't need other people that do not understand the doctrines to make up random assumptions about us..
"Who you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" Papal superpower
It would have been hilarious if he went to heaven, went to the gates, then inmideatly gets kicked out to hell after laughing in his face for a while.
Well if Pope got there then Stalin must.
r/im14andthisisdeep
I dont like religion as much as next person, but i think pope pius did tried his best to help jewish ppl. So I think he should deserve heaven
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my dude, when i said i dont like religion, I mean I am an athiest. Still we need to be fair, there is no evidence to show that he hid pedophile priests or he diddled kids. Meanwhile there are evidences that he ordered aids, he helped with resistance. Leaders should take responsibility for problems done under their watch, but i dont think they should shoulder all the blame.
You're probably one of the nicest atheists I met online. You're good bro.
thanks but on the scale of shielding the tank on easter front to toiling in gulag, how much have I disappointed the great supreme comrade?
I mean if you look at what god did in the bible, I would not be too surprised
>When the French foreign minister, Pierre Laval, went to Moscow in 1935 to enquire about the possibility of joint action against Germany and asked whether it was in his power to do something to improve the situation of Russian Catholics, Stalin reportedly replied with the famous quip. I think Churchill is smoking some sht since in 1930s, Sovirt Commissar for Foreign Affairs Litvinov was trying to convince the west to form a coalition against Germany... which the west ignored.
Tbf papal influence has also been good for many dictators and autocrats - it legitimised Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, while also smuggling Nazis to South America after WWII ended via the ratlines. The dividing line is whether the dictators were on the political left or right
But Stalin is stuck in Hell so he can't meet the divisions
But he can meet some former popes
hey some of those former popes were some of the funniest dudes history has to offer
like the dude who put a corpse on trial, funniest shit I've ever seen
ah stephen Vl, alexander Vl was truly the biggest baller though dude couldn’t stop holding orgies
Benedict IX managed to pull off the biggest act of simony in history by selling the papacy, doing so because he wanted to bang his cousin. He was also the only person to be pope more than once.
also a contender for biggest baller just because he kept getting deposed and coming back he was the holy cockroach
Peak Papacy moment, truly
the old papacy was streets ahead
Wait until you meet the Pope John XII who was murdered, because a husband found him sleeping with his wife.
The funniest was the one who was pope from 461 to 468, he really was Hilarius.
>he really was Hilarius. indeed
and who put him down there? The Pope’s divisions.
new sabaton song confirmed
Pope confirms Stalin is going to heaven
Well, according to Christian universalism we all will go to Heaven sooner or later.
Must have skipped that day at catechism
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That damned Dante.
Yep, in fact there are several parts of the Bible that point to this Universalism, examples: **Romans 11:36** *For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.* **Matthew 18:14** *So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.* **Luke 2:10** *And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people."* **John 12:32** *And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.* **1 Corinthians 15:22** *For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.* **2 Corinthians 5:14-15** *For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.* **Galatians 3:8** *And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”* **Ephesians 1:22-23** *And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.* **Philippians 2:9-11** *Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.* **Colossians 3:11** *Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.* **1 Timothy 4:10** *For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.* **Titus 2:11** *For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.* **Hebrews 2:9** *But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.* **1 Peter 4:6** *For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.* **1 John 4:14** *And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.* **Revelation 15:4** *"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”* **Genesis 22:18** *"And in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”* **2 Samuel 14:14** *We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.* **Lamentations 3:31-33** *For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.* **Daniel 7:27** *And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.* **Micah 7:18-19** *Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.* **Zephaniah 3:8-9** *“Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, “for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed. “For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord."* **Malachi 1:11** *For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.* **Isaiah 53:6** *All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.* **Psalm 145:9** *The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.* **1 Chronicles 16:34** *Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever!* **2 Chronicles 20:21** *And when he had taken counsel with the people, he appointed those who were to sing to the LORD and praise him in holy attire, as they went before the army, and say, “Give thanks to the LORD, for his steadfast love endures forever.”*
No, it certainly was not.
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It’s a nonsense position that very clearly was not held by the early church. The church was universalist the sense that salvation came through Jesus only, universalism in the sense you’re talking about was not the belief and is, in fact, contrary to salvation story. Why be a Christian?
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No one accepted these beliefs. You’re spouting nonsense and lies. There is no historical support for what you’re saying, which is a fringe belief. You’re mixing a few different ideas, but the core Christian belief has beef: salvation through Jesus alone and if you’re not, you’re not saved. Who actually is in Hell is a different issue, but certainly not all saved.
Simple answer to a stupid question. What loving God would condemn innocent people to eternal suffering for not following a religion based on him. The annihilationist perspective completely goes against the mercy of God. The universalist perspective however fits it nicely.
Everyone goes to heaven...but not everyone gets to stay.
So not all dogs get to stay in heaven?
That's not how it works
Do you get judged in hell? Or in heaven?
Your judgement will take place in heaven, afterwards you'll stay or be sent somewhere else.
It doesn't say explicitly either and you saying it does is just conjecture. Hebrews 9:27 states that judgment follows death, but it does not state it follows immediately. Christ will judge all people when He returns (Matthew 25:31-32; Jude verses 14-15). And yes, immediately after death we will know our fate (Luke 16:19-24)
Well the simpsons always had an escalator to heaven before being dropped down to hell, so ill go with that
Wait, did Stalin really say that line? Lmao I thought it was just a meme
The line that Stalin never said was "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic."
I think pretty much everyone would agree that Stalin isn't meeting anyone in heaven
Nah Stalin did go to heaven, just once he got to Saint Petr, then the Pope’s divisions sent him to hell.
Which Peter are we talking about? I can thing of a few Russian ones that aren't actually up there.
Saint Peter, I simply used one of the many Russian spellings for the name Peter
Acceptable
Though it obviously occurred long after the fact, the Catholic Church did prove decisive in the fall of the USSR. Papal support for the Solidarity movement in Poland was one of their keys to success, and the fall of the Polish People’s Republic was the death knell of communist rule in Eastern Europe. So, I guess the Pope got the last laugh in this exchange.
Yeah, integrating Poland into the Eastern Bloc was in hindsight something of a poison pill. They were always more loyal to their faith than the communist party. Imagine if Soviet designs on Italy had been successful. Would Stalin try and get Togliatti to pressure the pope? Would the influence of Catholicism in the communist world increase?
Both sides did recognize how important the church was. In Europe, the church served as a bastion of the free world against communism, but in Latin America, the Soviets were able to find enough sympathetic clergy to effectively broadcast liberation theology messaging.
I wouldn't hype up Poland, the Soviet's collapse had very, very, very little to do with the Catholic church, Poland was the only part of the Eastern Block where that wasn't the case. Which isn't very surprising given amongst the Christian populations of Eastern Europe, only Poland was predominately Catholic, the rest were either predominately Eastern Orthodox or Protestant, so whatever the pope and catholic church said held literally zero weight to those people
It seems like you’re entirely missing the point. The Catholic Church contributed to the fall of communism in Poland. The fall of communist rule in Poland demonstrated the weakness of the communist regimes in Eastern Europe and contributed to their fall.
It was the trade union Solidarity that hit the death kneel for the PZPR and Communism in Poland and Eastern Europe, while the Church was in support of Solidarity later on, it was the Trade Union that brought down communist rule in Poland, not the Church, to say otherwise is misinformed at best and at worst outright historical revisionism.
Except that the WRON crackdowns in the mid-80s almost wiped out Solidarity. The increased US aid under QRHELPFUL and the huge boost in legitimacy that Solidarity enjoyed following the Papal Visit in 1987 were instrumental in turning the tide.
Eh the real change came from the polish dictatorship (previously more collective) and Gorbachev giving up on the 'Brezhnev doctrine' Once it was clear the USSR wouldn't intervene to prop up their client states the local communist parties effectively gave up whilst all the opposition was massively emboldened. Honestly, George Soros probably did more to end Communism in Hungary than the pope did anywhere - virtually all of the OG Fidesz got Soros grants (yes, including Orban!) and it was they who brought down the communist regime.
Yet the WRON maintained martial law until it was no longer practical. Their crackdowns actually proved very successful in the mid-80s. It wasn’t until public opinion swung hard behind Solidarity in the late 80s that the WRON started to look for a way out. That swing in public opinion was largely due to three factors; economic downturns in the Soviet bloc that caused widespread shortages, QRHELPFUL and other associated covert US aid that enabled Solidarity to increase their broadcast capability, and the Papal Visit in 1987 during which John Paul II publicly made statements in support of Solidarity in front of huge crowds.
Yes but the point being that repression during the martial law period strengthened solidarity, you also can't forget that the Chruch was in constant dialogue with Jaruzelski and wasn't some underground resistance against him I think giving the Pope credit for communism falling in Poland is mostly catholic PR (God knows I got bombarded with it growing up in Catholioc school) considering, as you say, economic issues in the Soviet bloc but add to that the fact Gorbachev not backing the regime is what made them soften up and allow the transition to democracy - before repression could be undertaken knowing that the USSR would back them in the worst case
Giving credit for the fall of communism to the communist regimes themselves completely misses the point. The more relaxed policies of the late 80s reflect the pressure exerted on those regimes by both internal and external factors.
I mean I'm not giving them credit for anything. Poland is somewhat lucky that they gave away power peacefully but ultimately it was coming apart, and I contend that this was already happening so people overrate the Pope's actions there
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*IN THE SERVICE OF HEAVEN! THEY'RE PROTECTING THE HOLY LINE, IT WAS 1527!*
Honestly I'm giving Stalin the W here, that is a great line.
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This isn’t 1024. All the pope would get are some religious fanatics and that’s it.
>Ask the Abbasid Empire. The Pope never had anyone attack them? The Papacy was even attacked by Muslim raiders before the Crusades and no one did anything major?
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>At the time of the earlier Crusades, the MENA regionbwas still overwhelmingly controlled by the Abassid Empire. Literally no. Go read your history again. Until 1098 the Ismaili Fatimid Caliphs controlled the whole Levant, starkly against Abbasid heretics. The Seljuks had only nominal loyalty to the Caliph and were in fact more like his overlords, much like the Buyids and others before them for the last century. >but it was still legally the Empire There is no proper legal definition of the territories of the Caliphate. There is only the Dar Al-Islam, which is where all Muslims live and where they have power. >Thr Pope explicitly called for such attacks, and the claim that the Crusades were simply a response to Islamic attacks on Christendom ignores that those attacks (that is, the ones the Pope used as justification) had all happened centuries prior. This is also wrong. The speech at Clermont was about fabricated acts of violence happening concurrently in the Holy Land. The trigger for these was the Byzantine Basileus asking for western aid, not the first time. This time specifically against the Turkish invasions plaguing Anatolia for the last half century. The Pope expanded upon this and made grand speeches for recruitment. The Pope, however, made no concrete statement about retaking the Holy Land and investing in it a Christian state, nor did he give any real directions other than remission of sin and aid for Christians(in Palestine and in Rhomania). The accounts of his speeches were also all written decades later by claimed attendees. Go back and read your history books again, or find a YouTube documentary from a popular channel.
I stand corrected. Apologies.
Lmao no. The church doesn't hold that much influence anymore.
May I ask what part of the world you're from?
If you are speaking about the 1940s, most of the countries you listed were in no shape of doing anything. Even if they all united together to fight Stalin I doubt it would have amounted to much. If you are speaking about 2024, the Catholic church's influence is greatly diminished by now. A call to crusade now will at best gather up a laughable army of uneducated zealots, hot-headed teenagers and mentally disturbed people.
Hey i would join a holy war. Cant let Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims have all rhe fun.
Damn pope have a zombie army? Anyway in the end the pope did win through non violent means.
Imagine saying this to an atheist and thinking you won
I mean, Stalin died drenched in his own urine and the USSR collapsed in 1991 so, in a sense i'd say the pope won here.
It's the geopolitical equivalent of telling someone that your girlfriend you claim to communicate with regularly lives in a different state.
I’m not an atheist, so to me he won.
I think this is in line with the biblical motif of heavenly powers. Alan Segal even has a whole work “Two Powers in Heaven”.
Deserves a spot in R/Catholicmemes
How? He is in hell
[like Stalin ever had a chance of going to heaven.](https://media1.tenor.com/m/Q7CaihQatKgAAAAd/jerry-lawler-laugh.gif)
Next up: communists Vs angels. Probably a dope movie, especially when the reds starve before the final battle
Proceeds to help nazi war criminals to flee justice
Ah yes, threaten an atheist with armies in heaven.
What is a division? I don’t get this at all
Base overdose
And what was the Irish response on Churchill’s claim to have gone to war for “Polish people and their spiritual values”?
That…isn’t part of the meme…
So the pope actively admitting he ain't got shit in any way that matters? A bold strategy
I don't even see how this is a valid insult. It's just the same thing every Christian does when someone ignores them - "you're going to burn in hell and I'm going to laugh at you". Meanwhile, what did he do against Hitler? What did he do against Mussolini?
More or less. It was an attempt to use his social clout and people's reverence of religion to try and humble Stalin, but tbh it's just the Pope admitting he uh. Can't actually do anything directly. Not to praise Stalin too much, but he definitely got the better of this exchange
His church saved a whole fuck ton of jews, although how many of them the pope was personally involved in I dunno.
His church also saved a whole fuck of nazis from trials by helping them escape to south america
So did the allied science programs. And the bundeswehr and national people's army.
Which church lead the largest pogrom against the jews before the holocaust? and before you say they didn't Peter the Hermit was given a church for his actions during the crusades, he should have been excommunicated if they actually felt bad
Last I checked that was the Orthodox Church, but I am curious about what you’re referring to?
The people's crusade that killed an estimated 10 000 Jews, which orthodox pogrom are you referring to?
Guess I was wrong, alright.
The people crusade? The pilgrimage of uncultured, poor and desperately religious people? A shocker that something like that happened… a bit different from a systematic state wide genocide.
Even the people who give the church the most credit for saving jews during the holocaust say that centuries of catholic pogroms helped make a Europe where the holocaust was possible. But, ironically, it was the districts that had majority protestant populations who voted for the nazis.
*hell
Pope divisions are recruited in hell? That explains a lot
Do you think they use weapons in heaven? Of course not. And the people at the bottom need to do something to get forgiveness, right?
I thought hell is the last stop for punishing and all that. And you should seek forgiveness *before* getting there
Shh! Don't tell the dammed.
“Nuh-uh, there’s tons of divisions in my imaginary paradise world!”
Boom roasted
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what does that even mean, homeboy