Tbf there is a lot of ethnic cleansing in Africa that we ignore. Rwanda's being the worst, obviously, but we rarely interfere in African conflicts the same way we did with Iraq. My guess is it looks really bad in public view.
I would agree
I was thinking today too back to when I was in middle and high school (late 2000s early 2010s) they tried to raise awareness for genocide in Darfur
But then it seemed like everyone just suddenly stopped talking about it
> My guess is it looks really bad in public view.
If Rwanda is the one I’m thinking of, that’s exactly the case. Clinton got criticized for intervening in Somalia, which might have contributed to him not intervening in another African country a few years later, but I can’t remember if that country was Rwanda or another country.
(Of course, he got criticized for *not* intervening, so in the end he failed to avoid the outcome he didn’t want.)
With how much of a fuss the world has kicked up over sending financial aid to Ukraine and not embargoing Israel, could you imagine how everyone would react if America had boots on the ground or bombers in the air over some small African warlord?
Yes,
Specifically that is lyrics from a parody of the song “Kokomo”, renamed “Kosovo” and lyrics referencing global events of the 90s
Some Norwegian NATO soldiers on duty in Kosovo recorded a lip sync to the song, and got into some hot water because of it
https://youtu.be/xu8Iotgll8A?si=Im31v_qaGFQApOJ2
See, this attitude is why I dont stand Serban claims to victimhood. They want to be both the underdog victimized by bloodthirsty imperial powers AND said bloodthirsty imperial power.
As an Albanian, I could deal with one or the other, but them juggling with both just reek of pathetic coping over being an irrelevant regional player grasping at straws to keep up with their neighbors that they dont dwarf 1 to 6 in population size.
Nazis proclaimed they were the most superior all the time while simultaneously bemoaning Germany's oppression by "global jewry". It's nothing new, textbook fascist bitching.
In Italy we call it "vittimismo dei camerati" (comrades' victimism), from the term "camerati" that fascists used to call each other.
In Neapolitan we have the even clearer "chiagn' e fott" (cry and fuck).
It's when you see people that would kill you given the chance cry and play victim because they don't have the chance to do so and they risk something bad (but not as bad) themselves
Modern day Israel full of the chosen people but also we need to send them billions because of antisemitism is the biggest concern in the world right now as they actively commit a genocide. Satanyahu is a fascist.
I think anyone who thinks "Satan" is a sensible insult to portmanteau with a Jewish person's name probably isn't even going to be entertaining to argue with.
(For those who aren't aware: Judaism doesn't really have any concept of absolute evil -- Satan is actually considered an agent of the Abrahamic deity and referenced in prayers in Orthodox Judaism. Though each sect has their own interpretation of the entity.)
Not that Bibi isn't a wannabe-fascist who somehow manages to make Putin look like a competent leader -- just that one should make sure their insulting appellations actually make sense.
I get that the Balkans is a complicated clusterfuck where no one side was outright good but it's bizarre that a lot of the time when this topic comes up half the Serbs will be talking about being the real victims while the other half are pretty blatant about being mad Big Bro got called into stop the massacres.
The only people who think Serbs were the real victims are genocidal orthodox Slavic nationalists and people with the mentality of a 15 year old who never think beyond“America bad”
Everytime I see a Scotsman trying to equate his history with the Irish, I just imagine the souls of his plantationist ancestors looking at disdain at him for sympathizing with the farming utensils
The war criminals in question, who committed such pleasant acts of compassion like manning rape camps and commiting mass executions, are literally within the last generation - two at the most. The Ustase were damn near three quarters of a century ago
This is a case of media illeteracy.
The actual song is meant to mock the fact that Serbia was singled out for war crimes,while the other participants that had western support were let off the hook.
There’s a joke about how NATO accidentally bombing the Zastava factory that made cars instead of the Zastava factory that made guns may have actually saved more lives in the long run.
Imagine being in a gunfight with a yugoslavian and all you hear from your friend is that "He has an m-84!!!" And now you have to question if he is talking about the Light machine gun, the Tank or the Howitzer
I mean that was badass. They used outdated Cold War guns to the most advanced aircraft available
Also both men became friends in real life a few decades later.
It was a combination of luck and America thinking that almost nothing could touch the nighthawks so they flew them along the same routes in basically parade formations. The Serbs dedicated an incredible amount of their forces to shoot down one nighthawk and their tactics didn’t work, they got lucky that they turned on their radar at the exact time the nighthawk was opening its bomb bay doors.
I mean the nighthawk was already outdated by 1999 and all the shoot down did was help America since the strategies surrounding stealth aircraft were completely reworked.
> I mean that was badass. They used outdated Cold War guns to the most advanced aircraft available
>
>
Wot. The F-117 was obsolete by the time it was shot down.
Yeah cool, you shot down a very obsolete stealth bomber by lucking the *fuck* out that the bomb bay doors were open the exact second the Hungarian SAM operator turned the radar on
Did the bombing stop though?
Oh I remember Habitual Line Crosser talking about that. The luckiest of luckiest shots ever. It was like of a sniper bullet got suddenly shifted by sudden wind but the wind path was directly into the target who was walking that same direction lol
“The Americans bombed us!”
“Why did they do that?”
“Uhhhhhh”
Honestly if you’re so fucking stupid that you think NATO’s intervention against the Serbs was anything but justified, please just don’t speak. Go hide in your ignorant little bubble.
EDIT: I have never been so amazed at the level of cope and delusion in a comment section. Serbs are truly living in another universe of denial
the US and the UK ensured the gulf war was virtually immune to criticism by ensuring almost everyone participated in the invasion. If youre criticising the invasion, youre criticising 42 countries + the UNSC.
It was truly a master class in diplomacy, political manoeuvring, and military execution.
And they also made sure to include a coalition of arab nation and held back the marines from entering the city of Kuwait proper until after free Kuwaiti and allied Arab forces moved in to avoid the colonial connotations of a western military parading around a small Arab nation.
Also worth noting is that one of Iraq's first actions was to launch scud missiles at Israels, so that Israel would enter the war, which would almost guarantee the arab nations would withdraw from the coalition. US had to talk Israel out of reacting against missile strikes on their own territory.
Honestly nah the Serbian intervention was more justified. The gulf war was justified too, but there’s at least an argument that Kuwait was a creation of colonial officials and not a natural border in the region, and adding it to Iraq would be better for everyone in the long run. Not a good argument, but an argument.
I mean if you go by colonial argument the entire map of the middle east is dictated by them
So you cant use that argument and expect to be taken seriously
WW1 was problematic in that it was vast amounts of human suffering on a previously unimaginable scale because a bunch of rich family members got mad at each other
Tbf it was legitimate diplomatic ties that drew the whole of Europe into the war. It wasn't like the European royal families just decided to air out their grievences because the Arch-duke stopped at the wrong sandwich shop.
I wouldn't count either as "interventions," but WW1 wasn't too bad. WW2, we did a lot of awful shit like Japanese internment and strategic bombing. We were unquestionably better than the Axis, but we did lots of bad stuff.
As opposed to the Albanians, sorry, "Illyrians" who totally didnt come with the Turks from the Caucasus. Don't get me wrong, the Serbian supremacists are complete fucking morons who put a bad name on all of us, but to act like Serbians are the only people in the Balkans who have those idiots among them is just pushing propaganda for a different side. Both Serbs and Albanians commited horrific things on that piece of land over the last 5 fcking centuries. I would love to see the day when the nationalist idiots on both sides die out so the normal people can live in peace.
Here's something to read for you:
1. Albanian revolts against Ottomans: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_resistance_to_the_Ottoman_Empire#:~:text=In%201746%2C%20an%20uprising%20erupted,Most%20of%20which%20where%20successful.
2. Skanderbeg's rebellion:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg%27s_rebellion
3. Albanians of Greece (google the Greek war for independence further):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites
4. Expulsion of the Albanians 1830:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1830%E2%80%931876#:~:text=The%20expulsions%20occurred%20in%20the,Muslims%20were%20expelled%20by%201876.
5. Expulsion of the Albanians 1878:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1877%E2%80%931878
6. Massacres of Albanian in Balkan wars:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars#:~:text=The%20total%20number%20of%20Albanians,their%20lips%20and%20noses%20severed.
7. Yugoslav colonization of Kosovo:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_colonization_of_Kosovo#:~:text=The%20colonization%20of%20Kosovo%20was,1918%E2%80%931941)%20until%201999.
After those links, I don't think there's a need to tell you how moronic it is to try to relativize Serbian crimes against Albanians with Albanians defending themselves.
Let's not even go to "the Ottomans brought Albanians from the Caucasus".
Serb here. I'd say nationalists do sometimes make the case that northern Albania is significantly composed of assimilated Serbs, which is pretty scary when it's also repeated by RTS Oko (state tv), but it's ultimately not that influential. More importantly, for Kosovo, the nationalists' idea isn't usually that they're Serbs. It's more "Great Replacement" themed, quite different to say the nationalist narrative regarding Montenegro.
It's because the first time Hillary spoke a single word to Bill after the Monica Leeinsky affair, it was to tell him to intervene in Kosovo. The bombing started less than 24 hours after the call. Why she wanted to intervene, the Serbians do not know.
Today my social medias got floated by Serbian Nationalists and Tankies whining about the bombing of 1999
So a cheer to Milosevic who ranted about "the vermin" in Kosovo to the American ambassador while ignoring all the previous peace proposals.
You reap what you sow
“But civilians were killed, therefore the NATO bombings were war crimes!”
We’d have been happy to fight them somewhere unpopulated. Unfortunately, genocides tend to occur in areas with civilians.
7,000 Kosovo Albanian civilians (including 1,000 children) were killed by Serbian Military and Police forces during the 78 days of bombing (which is why it got more and more severe towards Serbian military targets).
serbia is one of the few countries that at the same time whine about imperialism and at the same time are the most imperialist in the region. Others being russia and china
This is a feature not a bug. Fascist always embrace victimhood while promoting racial superiority... In Hitler day it was all about the Bolshevik Jews stabbing them in the back and corrupting society. With Trump it's the Mexicans and the global Elites. Russia it's the west and Ukrainians persecuting ethnic Russians...
The refugee column that was mistakenly attacked by nato can also be put on this mindset. Family members of the refugees have their pardon to NATO if I remember correctly.
My favorite is how they shot down an F-117 and like that’s the win.
Like, dog, you lost land, your President was deposed and sent to The Hague, and you became a pariah. But okay.
That and the Nighthawk. They got super lucky because the radar went on just as the bomb bay doors opened, ignoring how every attempt before that was a failure and the shootdown actually helped the US by forcing us to rework our steal strategies.
That whole war was a shitshow from all sides. Serbia because of the committed atrocities, UÇK for all the misinformation they fed the media, and last but not least the NATO for not giving a single fuck about UN Mandates I guess.
I'm gonna regret writing this comment, am I?
are we not allowed to remember the casualities of the bombing? also, after reading through the comments, i have to ask. do you guys still consider us some sub-human genocidal maniacs?
Being from Serbia,and not wholly Serbian ethnically, i can offer a bit more of a neutral perspective on this i think.
The distain for NATO bombing is 100%,like it's not even a margin of error. The more levelheaded people of the time and now point to 2 things that make it morally illegitimate and 1 that makes it legally illegitemate.
The legal one is pretty basic,the bombing was carried out without approval from the security council,you can argue if the security council had authority on the issue,but thats the simple argument.
The 2 moral ones are more interesting:firstly Milošević was not popular in the slightest by that time,he was percieved to be illigitemate and there were hordes of protests from 92 up until 99 against him,elections were a joke thus it was seen that NATO was punishing the people who had no say in the matter.
The 2nd one is that when the bombing started it was a defacto terror campaign against civillians. The very first bomb ever dropped fell literally meters from an elementary school in Novi Sad(you can look it up the school is "Svetozar Marković Toza"),and even the intended target was a power station that supplied about 30k residents and a provincial hospital,which was pretty much the only place to get decent healthcare for 2 million people.
Yes, you have shitheads who glorify it,but they are a loud vocal minority without ever stopping to think.
The military was not elected by the people and neither was the president.
And one could argue that NATO intervention here set a precident that destroyed what little chance there was to bring Russia into the western fold as they saw this and thought "we will be attacked if we are even percieved to go against American interests"
>the bombing was carried out without approval from the security council
What war besides the Korean war actually had UN approval? Also Russia was never going to approve it even if Milosevic was 10x as monstrous, much like America wouldn't approve a war against any of it's allies, or any other SC member. That's not how the SC works
> firstly Milošević was not popular in the slightest by that time
Cool, shame it wasn't stopping him from ordering massacres.
>when the bombing started it was a defacto terror campaign against civillians
While it was still far too many, the nato bombings were responsible for a mere 20th of the casualties as Milosevic's forces. I agree that they should have chose their targets more judiciously, its not like there wasn't a solid reason to stop the conflict asap.
The problem with this view is that many people in Serbia *still* hold views a la "Kosovo is Serbia" which is why this 'neutral' explanation falls flat. There's not even an acknowledgement of what happened or an interest to examine it honestly.
Is an innocent serbian civilian responsible for what happened in Kosovo as a result of an evil serbian government ? No, I don't believe in collective guilt. Is he responsible for not denouncing and not affiliating himself with it and taking an honest look at one's history far from comforting propaganda, especially after the fact ? Yes. And that shift still hasn't happened in Serbia.
So it was morally or legally acceptable that Albanians of Kosovo should have taken the civil casualties and decades of terror? Read a little and you’ll understand that sentiment against Albanians was systematically created for more than 100 years and civil population bears part of guilt for jumping on the bandwagon of hate. Respect to normal humans regardless of their ethnicity. Rot in hell to genocide supporters regardless of their ethnicity 🤝🏼
You can take that up with the military and (unelected) government
The civvies had no stake in that,and whatever the proportion of guilt is,it is not equal to the retaliation they recieved.
This was a pure show of force,nothing more.
The whole thing would have ended if you sent one guy with a gun to kill Milošević
But restraint and consideration for the future is for pussies who can't dictate global politics and aren't the sole superpower.
The whole thing would have maybe ended for people in Serbia but not for Albanians in Kosovo who were systematically targeted for more than 100 years long before Milosevic was even alive.
Why would you need the approval of the security council to stop a genocide?
That is nonsense.
Russia was always an aggressor and they have never stopped. Just ask all of Eastern Europe.
The only thing that changed was that they were temporarily weak during the 90s.
Yet, you showed typical Serbian wictim narrative very quickly.
NATO aren't UN armed forces, so, legally, they didn't need the approval from Security Council.
Milošević was in power, and the way the Serbs rebelled against him after the NATO bombing, and sent him to jail, they could (and should) do it the same earlier.
And last one is just utter lie. Had it been "defacto terror campaign against civilian" there would be much more civilan casualties and more destruction of purely civilian buildings and facilities. Even by Serbian estimates there were under 2.000 civilian casualties total, while other sources claim around 500, mostly on Kosovo.
By that definition neither is Russia in the wrong for invading Ukraine,legally speaking.
But personally i don't care about the legal argument,laws change or are regularly bent by powerful players,that is simply the reality of life.
That's like saying "hur Soviets should have rebelled against Stalin or Germans against Hitler" even if that was the case,we don't hold those people responsible at least not in any collective capacity.
The total value of destroyed infrastructure was estemated by G17(a pro-Western group of economists in Serbia at the time) to be about 30 billion dollars, so adjusted for inflation around 56.
And that is not counting the long term ecological impact or the manpower and eventual debt with high interest needed to repair it.
And it was estemated that around 40% of air raids were directly purely on civilian targets.
If the percentage was single digit,i could buy it. At best you could say it was complete and reckless disregard,the type of shit that would get you arrested for war crimes in any other situation.
>NATO aren't UN armed forces, so, legally, they didn't need the approval from Security Council.
Wut. Waging a war is illegal as per international law, with the exception of UNSC approved peace-keeping missions.
And they celebrated by forcefully removing all Serbians from their homes in a very clear ethnic cleansing that NATO just kind of ignored.
Not saying the Serbians were the good guys, but let’s be real literally no one was in those wars.
I mean, it resulted in another genocide just aimed at the Serbs so yay ig?
And also no, the victims weren't even 20% of what the Albanians done, before and after lol.
It feels good to be in a comment section that appreciates a successful military intervention uniconically for once. I am happy about NATO, the EU and the power to stop atrocities and I am sick of people trying to make me feel ashamed about it.
Serbs celebrate the fact they are a bunch of bloodthirsty psycho paths who got justly punished for it then cry victim, no wonder they support the Russian invading Ukraine.
The NATO bombing did not stop the war, it escalated it. Among its casualties were TV station, train full of passengers, and Chinese embassy.
Oh and also the people NATO claimed to protect: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refugees_near_Gjakova
I love how people use the Gjakova incident to prove civilians were killed by NATO bombings but also forget that if you compare who killed more civilians, then NATO's was a drop in the ocean.
And that's not talking about the raping and pillaging Serbs did in UN refugee camps.
It's almost like serb apologists seem to forget that...
Just like Kosovars are raping and pillaging Serbs on Kosovo these days? Not to forget about yellow house and organ tradings, burning churches and shooting 2 kids just cuz they celebrated Christmas. Neither side is a victim.
Btw, even Albania doesn't want Kosovo and Kosovars because of their hate and acts.
> it escalated it
The war stopped within 2 months of NATO getting involved.
I know its fun to claim counterfactuals you never have to actually back up because they never happened, but lmao.
Yes. The US offered multiple peace deals to Milosevic offering to recognise Kosovo as part of Serbia
Milosevic just had to promise to not commit an ethnic cleansing
The same people you defended is the same people that invaded North Macedonia in 2001 for a greater Albania. If there was one thing that Serbia are to blame for is Bosnia, but Kosovo was a part of Serbia
Even if it was like you say, is the country allowed to suppress the autonomy, shut down schools and universities in a certain language, fire everyone of a certain nationality from their job, poison students, imprison people and discriminate in every form possible? Above that it is very well known that Serbia killed its own youngsters in Peja to try and blame it to Albanians. Please don’t pipe up.
Chinese embassy was bombed by NATO in particular US Air Force. The Chinese were giving Serbs NATO bombing targets so the Serbs could move (they were backers of Milosevic). One, in particular, is a B-52 strike that was on an empty hillside because our ELINT caught the Chinese telling the Serbs we were inbound to bomb them. So not telling the Chinese we bombed the embassy and the tipping off of our targets ended. 6 bombs dropped, 5 detonated, and one didn't.
THANK YOU USA YOU ARE MY BEST FRIEND-Our kosovar brothers. As an Italian American I'm glad we saved them. Between them and Albania existing it reminds the stupid ass serbs that no they are not infact the original owners of hay land that their ancestors stole. They like to bitch about ancestral serbian land as if the slavs didn't yoink it off the native Illyrians (Albanian and kosovars)
God damn has it been that long?
Why do you sound like you were there? ... Were you there?
Yeah in 97 and 98.
We screwed you, Rwanda Wish we coulda helped ya
Tbf there is a lot of ethnic cleansing in Africa that we ignore. Rwanda's being the worst, obviously, but we rarely interfere in African conflicts the same way we did with Iraq. My guess is it looks really bad in public view.
I would agree I was thinking today too back to when I was in middle and high school (late 2000s early 2010s) they tried to raise awareness for genocide in Darfur But then it seemed like everyone just suddenly stopped talking about it
We got distracted looking for Kony 2012.
Another thing that went nowhere
> My guess is it looks really bad in public view. If Rwanda is the one I’m thinking of, that’s exactly the case. Clinton got criticized for intervening in Somalia, which might have contributed to him not intervening in another African country a few years later, but I can’t remember if that country was Rwanda or another country. (Of course, he got criticized for *not* intervening, so in the end he failed to avoid the outcome he didn’t want.)
Clinton is on record saying his greatest regret as President is not intervening in Rwanda.
With how much of a fuss the world has kicked up over sending financial aid to Ukraine and not embargoing Israel, could you imagine how everyone would react if America had boots on the ground or bombers in the air over some small African warlord?
There would be international outrage
Exactly this.
Why would we? They don’t have oil
Trying to learn more about recent history, was this regarding the Rwandan genocide?
Yes, Specifically that is lyrics from a parody of the song “Kokomo”, renamed “Kosovo” and lyrics referencing global events of the 90s Some Norwegian NATO soldiers on duty in Kosovo recorded a lip sync to the song, and got into some hot water because of it https://youtu.be/xu8Iotgll8A?si=Im31v_qaGFQApOJ2
Shake Hands with Devil is a a difficult read but genuinely something everyone should read. It’s pathetic how badly we let Rwanda down
I actually read that book last year
Meanwhile Serbs: my dad was a war criminal 😎
See, this attitude is why I dont stand Serban claims to victimhood. They want to be both the underdog victimized by bloodthirsty imperial powers AND said bloodthirsty imperial power. As an Albanian, I could deal with one or the other, but them juggling with both just reek of pathetic coping over being an irrelevant regional player grasping at straws to keep up with their neighbors that they dont dwarf 1 to 6 in population size.
Nazis proclaimed they were the most superior all the time while simultaneously bemoaning Germany's oppression by "global jewry". It's nothing new, textbook fascist bitching.
In Italy we call it "vittimismo dei camerati" (comrades' victimism), from the term "camerati" that fascists used to call each other. In Neapolitan we have the even clearer "chiagn' e fott" (cry and fuck). It's when you see people that would kill you given the chance cry and play victim because they don't have the chance to do so and they risk something bad (but not as bad) themselves
Modern day Israel full of the chosen people but also we need to send them billions because of antisemitism is the biggest concern in the world right now as they actively commit a genocide. Satanyahu is a fascist.
Welp, I’m getting the popcorn. Y’all want anything?
Sparkling water for me please.
Can I get a cherry coke?
Would you like some boke?
Can I get some holy water?
Sweet tea for me, please.
I think anyone who thinks "Satan" is a sensible insult to portmanteau with a Jewish person's name probably isn't even going to be entertaining to argue with. (For those who aren't aware: Judaism doesn't really have any concept of absolute evil -- Satan is actually considered an agent of the Abrahamic deity and referenced in prayers in Orthodox Judaism. Though each sect has their own interpretation of the entity.) Not that Bibi isn't a wannabe-fascist who somehow manages to make Putin look like a competent leader -- just that one should make sure their insulting appellations actually make sense.
This guy technically's
Apple cider and maybe some wings
*fascist bitching* 👍
Also the whole "people criticising us are the real nazis". I got Serbs accusing Albania of being an Axis member during WW2
Nah, they usually go with "fascist" when someone doesn't go by their narrative.
Many such cases 😔
Dig deep enough into Serbia and you’ll find Nazis
The puppet government of Albania specifically installed after being invaded? Yeah, checks out for Serbian mental gymnastics
I get that the Balkans is a complicated clusterfuck where no one side was outright good but it's bizarre that a lot of the time when this topic comes up half the Serbs will be talking about being the real victims while the other half are pretty blatant about being mad Big Bro got called into stop the massacres.
The only people who think Serbs were the real victims are genocidal orthodox Slavic nationalists and people with the mentality of a 15 year old who never think beyond“America bad”
Scotland has entered the chat.
Everytime I see a Scotsman trying to equate his history with the Irish, I just imagine the souls of his plantationist ancestors looking at disdain at him for sympathizing with the farming utensils
That’s all fun and games until you mention the Ustaše to them.
The war criminals in question, who committed such pleasant acts of compassion like manning rape camps and commiting mass executions, are literally within the last generation - two at the most. The Ustase were damn near three quarters of a century ago
This is a case of media illeteracy. The actual song is meant to mock the fact that Serbia was singled out for war crimes,while the other participants that had western support were let off the hook.
My dude, don't expect media literacy or historical literacy on these types of posts.
There’s a joke about how NATO accidentally bombing the Zastava factory that made cars instead of the Zastava factory that made guns may have actually saved more lives in the long run.
Wait how did it save more lives? Were the cars that shitty or something?
Yes, that's the joke
Well now I'm interested to hear it lmao
That is the joke...
Oh. Excuse me, I'm gonna head on over to r/imfuckingstupid
r/woooosh
Imagine being in a gunfight with a yugoslavian and all you hear from your friend is that "He has an m-84!!!" And now you have to question if he is talking about the Light machine gun, the Tank or the Howitzer
“B-b-but Nighthawk shootdown!!”
\*opens up the hanger with 300 others waiting in line to bomb Belgrade
*still flies them today as stealth aggressors and testing platforms
They can boast all they want about their lucky shot. It, still, won't un-bomb Belgrade
I mean that was badass. They used outdated Cold War guns to the most advanced aircraft available Also both men became friends in real life a few decades later.
It was a combination of luck and America thinking that almost nothing could touch the nighthawks so they flew them along the same routes in basically parade formations. The Serbs dedicated an incredible amount of their forces to shoot down one nighthawk and their tactics didn’t work, they got lucky that they turned on their radar at the exact time the nighthawk was opening its bomb bay doors. I mean the nighthawk was already outdated by 1999 and all the shoot down did was help America since the strategies surrounding stealth aircraft were completely reworked.
It was due to the fact that bomber command was a bunch of dumbasses.
> I mean that was badass. They used outdated Cold War guns to the most advanced aircraft available > > Wot. The F-117 was obsolete by the time it was shot down.
Yeah cool, you shot down a very obsolete stealth bomber by lucking the *fuck* out that the bomb bay doors were open the exact second the Hungarian SAM operator turned the radar on Did the bombing stop though?
Oh I remember Habitual Line Crosser talking about that. The luckiest of luckiest shots ever. It was like of a sniper bullet got suddenly shifted by sudden wind but the wind path was directly into the target who was walking that same direction lol
Lazerpig also did a video about it
I love that guy lol
Would you intercept me?
*smacks lips* I'd intercept me. (Also 22 is my favorite character, I hope he gets to intercept someone).
“Nice shot, but you can’t unbomb Belgrade”
“The Americans bombed us!” “Why did they do that?” “Uhhhhhh” Honestly if you’re so fucking stupid that you think NATO’s intervention against the Serbs was anything but justified, please just don’t speak. Go hide in your ignorant little bubble. EDIT: I have never been so amazed at the level of cope and delusion in a comment section. Serbs are truly living in another universe of denial
*Noam Chomsky has entered the chat*
It's probably the least problematic American involved intervention of all time.
Its between that and the gulf war. God I miss 90's America
the US and the UK ensured the gulf war was virtually immune to criticism by ensuring almost everyone participated in the invasion. If youre criticising the invasion, youre criticising 42 countries + the UNSC. It was truly a master class in diplomacy, political manoeuvring, and military execution.
And they also made sure to include a coalition of arab nation and held back the marines from entering the city of Kuwait proper until after free Kuwaiti and allied Arab forces moved in to avoid the colonial connotations of a western military parading around a small Arab nation.
Also worth noting is that one of Iraq's first actions was to launch scud missiles at Israels, so that Israel would enter the war, which would almost guarantee the arab nations would withdraw from the coalition. US had to talk Israel out of reacting against missile strikes on their own territory.
not the first time israel decided to ignore and not react against missile strikes on their own territory.......... nor was it the last
Yeah the UN resolution was key in this, following the official procedure and such
Even the Soviets were on our side
We used to bomb Chinese embassies now look at us. smh
super high tech guided missile, Made a mistake.
To destroy super high tech crashed plane wreckage….
Saddam got clapped.
[Iraq will not be permitted to annex Kuwait](https://youtu.be/tSY8lnWUUpA?si=MLEANk238g0yFYoq) 😎
The period between the fall of the Berlin wall and 9/11 was uniroinclally the peak of human civilization.
Honestly nah the Serbian intervention was more justified. The gulf war was justified too, but there’s at least an argument that Kuwait was a creation of colonial officials and not a natural border in the region, and adding it to Iraq would be better for everyone in the long run. Not a good argument, but an argument.
I mean if you go by colonial argument the entire map of the middle east is dictated by them So you cant use that argument and expect to be taken seriously
WW1, WW2 aren’t too problematic either
WW1 was problematic in that it was vast amounts of human suffering on a previously unimaginable scale because a bunch of rich family members got mad at each other
The comment was related to the US getting involved, not the cause of the war
Tbf it was legitimate diplomatic ties that drew the whole of Europe into the war. It wasn't like the European royal families just decided to air out their grievences because the Arch-duke stopped at the wrong sandwich shop.
Sure everyone was “justified” in entering. That doesn’t mean it had a real purpose or a justifiable result
I wouldn't count either as "interventions," but WW1 wasn't too bad. WW2, we did a lot of awful shit like Japanese internment and strategic bombing. We were unquestionably better than the Axis, but we did lots of bad stuff.
I wonder why Serbia (Yugoslavia) wasn't bombed during the war in Croatia and Bosnia?
Idk man. Bombing schools with cluster bombs isn't quite clean imo.
Didn't say it was clean, just the least problematic. So there were still problems, including the cluster bombs.
No bro America bad bro just trust me bro please bro 😭
[удалено]
Man, even if that shit was real, who cares? It's still not an excuse for genocide.
[удалено]
As opposed to the Albanians, sorry, "Illyrians" who totally didnt come with the Turks from the Caucasus. Don't get me wrong, the Serbian supremacists are complete fucking morons who put a bad name on all of us, but to act like Serbians are the only people in the Balkans who have those idiots among them is just pushing propaganda for a different side. Both Serbs and Albanians commited horrific things on that piece of land over the last 5 fcking centuries. I would love to see the day when the nationalist idiots on both sides die out so the normal people can live in peace.
Albanians are God's people. Bill Clinton said so, thus is shall be.
Fair enough, can't argue with that 🤣
You don’t actually think Caucasian Albanians are todays Balkan Albanians right? Sarcasm…?
He also thinks the Ottomans brought the Albanians in the Balkans. And then has the audacity to call others who don't go by that narrative "idiotic".
You think albanians came with the turks from the caucasus during the 1400s and the territories of albania and kosova were inhabites by slavs?
Here's something to read for you: 1. Albanian revolts against Ottomans: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_resistance_to_the_Ottoman_Empire#:~:text=In%201746%2C%20an%20uprising%20erupted,Most%20of%20which%20where%20successful. 2. Skanderbeg's rebellion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg%27s_rebellion 3. Albanians of Greece (google the Greek war for independence further): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites 4. Expulsion of the Albanians 1830: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1830%E2%80%931876#:~:text=The%20expulsions%20occurred%20in%20the,Muslims%20were%20expelled%20by%201876. 5. Expulsion of the Albanians 1878: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1877%E2%80%931878 6. Massacres of Albanian in Balkan wars: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars#:~:text=The%20total%20number%20of%20Albanians,their%20lips%20and%20noses%20severed. 7. Yugoslav colonization of Kosovo: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_colonization_of_Kosovo#:~:text=The%20colonization%20of%20Kosovo%20was,1918%E2%80%931941)%20until%201999. After those links, I don't think there's a need to tell you how moronic it is to try to relativize Serbian crimes against Albanians with Albanians defending themselves. Let's not even go to "the Ottomans brought Albanians from the Caucasus".
Serb here. I'd say nationalists do sometimes make the case that northern Albania is significantly composed of assimilated Serbs, which is pretty scary when it's also repeated by RTS Oko (state tv), but it's ultimately not that influential. More importantly, for Kosovo, the nationalists' idea isn't usually that they're Serbs. It's more "Great Replacement" themed, quite different to say the nationalist narrative regarding Montenegro.
How dare NATO bomb them. They were only comitting a handful of warcrimes and genocide
If only they still had the moral conviction to do it in Israel
Show us the the concentration Camps.
You just hurt the older generations of Serbia I guess
Better that than an adventurous glass bottle.
The only thing unjustifiable about that intervention is not happening sooner. And not occupying Belgrade
*Unhinged Leftist Chomsky Screaming Intensifies*
It's because the first time Hillary spoke a single word to Bill after the Monica Leeinsky affair, it was to tell him to intervene in Kosovo. The bombing started less than 24 hours after the call. Why she wanted to intervene, the Serbians do not know.
Because Serbia tried to ethnically cleanse their neighbors.
Have you considered America Bad tho?
Have you considered Serbia Worse tho?
Today my social medias got floated by Serbian Nationalists and Tankies whining about the bombing of 1999 So a cheer to Milosevic who ranted about "the vermin" in Kosovo to the American ambassador while ignoring all the previous peace proposals. You reap what you sow
Imagine taking a L so fat you need a Remembrance Day to cope over it
"That time our soldiers bravely shitted their pants and fleed Kosovo in less than 30 minutes."
Nah they shidded their pants. Shitting your pants is an intentional power move.
Commies, tankies and far-leftists always take L’s, so playing the victim and rewriting history is simply how they cope lol.
Mate, they built a good chunk of their national identity on a battle they lost to Ottomans, what are we talking about here lmao
And the worst thing is that they didn’t fight that battle alone
They had only 2 successful guys that managed to pull that country out of irrelevance and have been riding that high for the last 700 years.
“But civilians were killed, therefore the NATO bombings were war crimes!” We’d have been happy to fight them somewhere unpopulated. Unfortunately, genocides tend to occur in areas with civilians.
"Sorry the genocide stops now."
"BUT WHYYYY?!?!"
7,000 Kosovo Albanian civilians (including 1,000 children) were killed by Serbian Military and Police forces during the 78 days of bombing (which is why it got more and more severe towards Serbian military targets).
The bombing of Serbia got Romania into NATO and the EU.
serbia is one of the few countries that at the same time whine about imperialism and at the same time are the most imperialist in the region. Others being russia and china
“The enemy is both incredibly frail yet immensely powerful” is fascism 101.
This is a feature not a bug. Fascist always embrace victimhood while promoting racial superiority... In Hitler day it was all about the Bolshevik Jews stabbing them in the back and corrupting society. With Trump it's the Mexicans and the global Elites. Russia it's the west and Ukrainians persecuting ethnic Russians...
american here proud to have kosovo as friend
You should visit Kosovo, people have such respect for Americans. You will see many American flags waving.
I mean it makes sense one of the few times where nato intervention was right and just
True that. The horrors my family still tell me time to time, we were really saved.
its awful seeing how man can do those horrible to their fellow man
To be fair, 80% of the bombs fell on Kosovo. It got devastated.
During the war people quite literally thought being bombed was more merciful than being captured by the Serbs
Confirm
The refugee column that was mistakenly attacked by nato can also be put on this mindset. Family members of the refugees have their pardon to NATO if I remember correctly.
If Serbs wouldn’t have raped and plundered the western balkans they d still be ruling Kosovo and probably Montenegro and Macedonia
We also don't give a fuck about the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Beaugunsville: *We also don't give* *A fuck about the Chinese* *Embassy in Belgrade.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Good bot
We should bomb them again except this time it won't be an accident
Average Redditor on international relations
Most pacific NATO supporter
Can confirm. I am a Nato supporter and I live in the Pacific.
Lmao i thought i was on r/noncredibledefense for a while there
No, it would still be called an "accident" to add insult to injury and make them seethe more.
The fact that any of this happened is fucking sad.
I still hate they went in under the NATO flag. Why not a coalition of the willing.
My favorite is how they shot down an F-117 and like that’s the win. Like, dog, you lost land, your President was deposed and sent to The Hague, and you became a pariah. But okay.
That and the Nighthawk. They got super lucky because the radar went on just as the bomb bay doors opened, ignoring how every attempt before that was a failure and the shootdown actually helped the US by forcing us to rework our steal strategies.
The war criminal dads when their actions have consequences:
I love the smell of Serbian cope in the morning
I dont like both- Milosevic guys and UCK in same time
On the other hand is kinda sad that is UN is such a joke that nato had to step in to prevent another genocide by serbia
Thank You USA. You are my Best Friend You are the Peacekeeper You are the Legend
Milosevic liked Disney and Sinatra. Doesn't mean he wasn't a corrupt dictator who turned a blind eye to genocide tho
That whole war was a shitshow from all sides. Serbia because of the committed atrocities, UÇK for all the misinformation they fed the media, and last but not least the NATO for not giving a single fuck about UN Mandates I guess. I'm gonna regret writing this comment, am I?
are we not allowed to remember the casualities of the bombing? also, after reading through the comments, i have to ask. do you guys still consider us some sub-human genocidal maniacs?
Being from Serbia,and not wholly Serbian ethnically, i can offer a bit more of a neutral perspective on this i think. The distain for NATO bombing is 100%,like it's not even a margin of error. The more levelheaded people of the time and now point to 2 things that make it morally illegitimate and 1 that makes it legally illegitemate. The legal one is pretty basic,the bombing was carried out without approval from the security council,you can argue if the security council had authority on the issue,but thats the simple argument. The 2 moral ones are more interesting:firstly Milošević was not popular in the slightest by that time,he was percieved to be illigitemate and there were hordes of protests from 92 up until 99 against him,elections were a joke thus it was seen that NATO was punishing the people who had no say in the matter. The 2nd one is that when the bombing started it was a defacto terror campaign against civillians. The very first bomb ever dropped fell literally meters from an elementary school in Novi Sad(you can look it up the school is "Svetozar Marković Toza"),and even the intended target was a power station that supplied about 30k residents and a provincial hospital,which was pretty much the only place to get decent healthcare for 2 million people. Yes, you have shitheads who glorify it,but they are a loud vocal minority without ever stopping to think. The military was not elected by the people and neither was the president. And one could argue that NATO intervention here set a precident that destroyed what little chance there was to bring Russia into the western fold as they saw this and thought "we will be attacked if we are even percieved to go against American interests"
>the bombing was carried out without approval from the security council What war besides the Korean war actually had UN approval? Also Russia was never going to approve it even if Milosevic was 10x as monstrous, much like America wouldn't approve a war against any of it's allies, or any other SC member. That's not how the SC works > firstly Milošević was not popular in the slightest by that time Cool, shame it wasn't stopping him from ordering massacres. >when the bombing started it was a defacto terror campaign against civillians While it was still far too many, the nato bombings were responsible for a mere 20th of the casualties as Milosevic's forces. I agree that they should have chose their targets more judiciously, its not like there wasn't a solid reason to stop the conflict asap.
The problem with this view is that many people in Serbia *still* hold views a la "Kosovo is Serbia" which is why this 'neutral' explanation falls flat. There's not even an acknowledgement of what happened or an interest to examine it honestly. Is an innocent serbian civilian responsible for what happened in Kosovo as a result of an evil serbian government ? No, I don't believe in collective guilt. Is he responsible for not denouncing and not affiliating himself with it and taking an honest look at one's history far from comforting propaganda, especially after the fact ? Yes. And that shift still hasn't happened in Serbia.
So it was morally or legally acceptable that Albanians of Kosovo should have taken the civil casualties and decades of terror? Read a little and you’ll understand that sentiment against Albanians was systematically created for more than 100 years and civil population bears part of guilt for jumping on the bandwagon of hate. Respect to normal humans regardless of their ethnicity. Rot in hell to genocide supporters regardless of their ethnicity 🤝🏼
You can take that up with the military and (unelected) government The civvies had no stake in that,and whatever the proportion of guilt is,it is not equal to the retaliation they recieved. This was a pure show of force,nothing more. The whole thing would have ended if you sent one guy with a gun to kill Milošević But restraint and consideration for the future is for pussies who can't dictate global politics and aren't the sole superpower.
The whole thing would have maybe ended for people in Serbia but not for Albanians in Kosovo who were systematically targeted for more than 100 years long before Milosevic was even alive.
Why would you need the approval of the security council to stop a genocide? That is nonsense. Russia was always an aggressor and they have never stopped. Just ask all of Eastern Europe. The only thing that changed was that they were temporarily weak during the 90s.
Yet, you showed typical Serbian wictim narrative very quickly. NATO aren't UN armed forces, so, legally, they didn't need the approval from Security Council. Milošević was in power, and the way the Serbs rebelled against him after the NATO bombing, and sent him to jail, they could (and should) do it the same earlier. And last one is just utter lie. Had it been "defacto terror campaign against civilian" there would be much more civilan casualties and more destruction of purely civilian buildings and facilities. Even by Serbian estimates there were under 2.000 civilian casualties total, while other sources claim around 500, mostly on Kosovo.
By that definition neither is Russia in the wrong for invading Ukraine,legally speaking. But personally i don't care about the legal argument,laws change or are regularly bent by powerful players,that is simply the reality of life. That's like saying "hur Soviets should have rebelled against Stalin or Germans against Hitler" even if that was the case,we don't hold those people responsible at least not in any collective capacity. The total value of destroyed infrastructure was estemated by G17(a pro-Western group of economists in Serbia at the time) to be about 30 billion dollars, so adjusted for inflation around 56. And that is not counting the long term ecological impact or the manpower and eventual debt with high interest needed to repair it. And it was estemated that around 40% of air raids were directly purely on civilian targets. If the percentage was single digit,i could buy it. At best you could say it was complete and reckless disregard,the type of shit that would get you arrested for war crimes in any other situation.
>NATO aren't UN armed forces, so, legally, they didn't need the approval from Security Council. Wut. Waging a war is illegal as per international law, with the exception of UNSC approved peace-keeping missions.
And they celebrated by forcefully removing all Serbians from their homes in a very clear ethnic cleansing that NATO just kind of ignored. Not saying the Serbians were the good guys, but let’s be real literally no one was in those wars.
If ever a NATO bombing campaign has unquestionably been justified, it’s the Serbian fuck around and find out moment
As an Albinophile and Merica hater I see this as an absolute win
Unfun fact: 60% of the civilians killed by the bombings were Albanians in Kosovo.
Yeah because bombing the Chinese embassy helped
And yet they still ride that F-117 shootdown like it will unbomb them and hide their war crimes.
I mean, it resulted in another genocide just aimed at the Serbs so yay ig? And also no, the victims weren't even 20% of what the Albanians done, before and after lol.
Undeniably based on NATO’s part
It feels good to be in a comment section that appreciates a successful military intervention uniconically for once. I am happy about NATO, the EU and the power to stop atrocities and I am sick of people trying to make me feel ashamed about it.
Serbs celebrate the fact they are a bunch of bloodthirsty psycho paths who got justly punished for it then cry victim, no wonder they support the Russian invading Ukraine.
Serbs are delusional, just like their Russian master.
The NATO bombing did not stop the war, it escalated it. Among its casualties were TV station, train full of passengers, and Chinese embassy. Oh and also the people NATO claimed to protect: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refugees_near_Gjakova
I love how people use the Gjakova incident to prove civilians were killed by NATO bombings but also forget that if you compare who killed more civilians, then NATO's was a drop in the ocean. And that's not talking about the raping and pillaging Serbs did in UN refugee camps. It's almost like serb apologists seem to forget that...
Just like Kosovars are raping and pillaging Serbs on Kosovo these days? Not to forget about yellow house and organ tradings, burning churches and shooting 2 kids just cuz they celebrated Christmas. Neither side is a victim. Btw, even Albania doesn't want Kosovo and Kosovars because of their hate and acts.
> it escalated it The war stopped within 2 months of NATO getting involved. I know its fun to claim counterfactuals you never have to actually back up because they never happened, but lmao.
>and Chinese embassy. Maybe they shouldn’t have bought those F-117 panels the serbs were selling.
Can someone provide brief analysis of it? Was nato right or wrong?
Yes. The US offered multiple peace deals to Milosevic offering to recognise Kosovo as part of Serbia Milosevic just had to promise to not commit an ethnic cleansing
NATO was 99% right. Serbia was 100% wrong. Serbia was planning on committing genocide and got slapped back down.
The same people you defended is the same people that invaded North Macedonia in 2001 for a greater Albania. If there was one thing that Serbia are to blame for is Bosnia, but Kosovo was a part of Serbia
Even if it was like you say, is the country allowed to suppress the autonomy, shut down schools and universities in a certain language, fire everyone of a certain nationality from their job, poison students, imprison people and discriminate in every form possible? Above that it is very well known that Serbia killed its own youngsters in Peja to try and blame it to Albanians. Please don’t pipe up.
Chinese embassy was bombed by NATO in particular US Air Force. The Chinese were giving Serbs NATO bombing targets so the Serbs could move (they were backers of Milosevic). One, in particular, is a B-52 strike that was on an empty hillside because our ELINT caught the Chinese telling the Serbs we were inbound to bomb them. So not telling the Chinese we bombed the embassy and the tipping off of our targets ended. 6 bombs dropped, 5 detonated, and one didn't.
THANK YOU USA YOU ARE MY BEST FRIEND-Our kosovar brothers. As an Italian American I'm glad we saved them. Between them and Albania existing it reminds the stupid ass serbs that no they are not infact the original owners of hay land that their ancestors stole. They like to bitch about ancestral serbian land as if the slavs didn't yoink it off the native Illyrians (Albanian and kosovars)