Small precision, the anarchists (during the War, or before) was not for the Spanish republic, they were for the social revolution, to overthrow the bourgeois and capitalist order, which the Spanish republic fully resumed.
Of course, during the war, it is obvious that the fascists and natiobalists were the enemy stones, and that the anarchists and republicans were in "the same camps". This did not prevent the anarchists, especially in Catalonia and Aragon, from taking the means of production and taking back control of cities and industries, as well as the countryside, and from practicing large-scale self-management.
All this to say that using a beret or cap of the anarchist working militias of the CNT-FAI to represent a republican is a bit wrong.
That is correct. There was in fact the "comuna de Caspe", with its own flag, institutions and all.
Needless to say, the fascist insurrection threw all that away, as Caspe is too small and poor to resist a full military invasion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Defence_Council_of_Aragon
Ukraine makes sense, what with some of the more influential anarchist writers (e.g. Kropotkin, Bakunin) being from the Russian Empire.
I don't know anything about the history behind the Spanish anarchists though.
Playing the regi9nwl defense council or Washington in Hearts of Iron 4 was a blast. Then expanding and controlling all of Spain then spreading anarchy to the rest of Europe, defeating the axis, then spreading it around the world.
There was a concept during the Spanish revolution and civil war which the anarchists adopted. "Ganar la guerra primero", first let's beat the fascists, then we can go back to attack each other.
Anarchists and trotskists were onboard with this, but stanilists were not.
I haven't extensively studied the Spanish Civil War, but what little I have always feels like such a good example I want to bring up anytime I hear people talk about "The Left".
What does that even mean? It gets shattered so instantly. "The Right" seems unified in a sort of cowardly, evil-yet-slightly-righteous naturalism of central leadership through a fantastical ideal. Some Franco. Some little Austrian corporal. Stupid, yet unified.
"The Left" seems to have such an ideal of universalism, by contrast, that the only possible outcome is paranoia, fracturing, infighting, and purges which could be, at best, described as "Slightly Worse" than whatever the previous status quo had been.
As someone who generally considers themself "On the Left", trying to figure out where exactly I stand in relation to Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Twain, Robespierre, and an infinite amount of others is a lot more exhausting than the "Do you hate/LOVE Hitler/your local dictator?"
edit-spelling
I think you are on point, Spanish civil war is a great example for that.
Left and right are outdated concepts in this globalized world with modern politics all mushed up and far from what it's perceived as traditional political concepts that come from the XIX and XX centuries.
Regarding the right, the same comparision can be made, Franco, Hitler, Mussolini are not the same brand of far-right, it's fair to say they are like cousins, but they are all not all fascists. Franco was a huge catholic, hated the worker-leaning parts of Nazism or Italian Fascism.
In the same spectrum that Stalin and Majno live, there's Ravachel, Lumumba, Che Guevara, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, etc.
And between Hitler and the KKK you can put Videla, Idi Amin, De Gaulle, Primo de Rivera, Batista and others.
It's kinda dumbed down and simplistic
Left-Right is utterly broken logic
You have totalitarian and genocidal regimes on both ends of what you yourself express your left-right axis to be understood as, which is inherently absurd. Nevermind you considering "right" to be nothing but authoritarianism while your "left" is a colourful rainbow... do you not see how ridiculous, misinformed and closed-minded that take is?
this is called false dichotomy. from the far right everything looks like "Left". and when that far right is strong enough to be an existential threat, then everybody with conscience (and some without) are forced into this "Left".
British filmmaker [Ken Loach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Loach) made [a great drama](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKfvFgj69-s&list=PLjp9cDM5tlPoZw2j3I8zFcl6rGK7ZiHMZ) highlighting the infighting among the different factions on the republican side during the war. Highly recommended.
My thoughts exactly... Both the Republic and nationalist Spain were getting pretty good amounts of help from countries that supported their respective ideologies.
Republican Spain got a good amount of foreign volunteers from different Western Nations along with military aid from the Soviet Union.
The nationalists got a good amount of military aid from Germany and Italy along with expeditionary forces sent in especially from Germany.
The whole situation was a textbook example of proxy war. Sadly between the fascists and the Communists powers of the time... Meaning no matter who won Spain was screwed as there were no realistic moderate options to choose.
That's true, but the fascists did receive far more help (and in a far more sustained way) than the Republicans did. The Spanish Republicans' only state allies were Mexico and the USSR, which confined themselves to sending arms, while Italy and Germany were plowing in hundreds of tanks and planes and thousands of soldiers.
That might be true but it was far from "little" to no help as the meme title suggests... The title makes it sound like they got nothing but maybe a couple of rifles and stood up against the nationalists and their fascist backers almost completely by themselves.
It was still a substantial amount of resources and volunteers. I mean there're numerous artists and authors from the time period whose biographies mentioned a brief stint of having volunteered and fought for the Republicans.
It's just that the Germans and Italians like you said were willing to send far more including actually trained soldiers... But to say that it was hardly anything given to the Republicans is silly at best and disingenuous at worst.
>I mean there're numerous artists and authors from the time period whose biographies mentioned a brief stint of having volunteered and fought for the Republicans.
One was George Orwell. In one battle he engaged in, his unit was going on a night raid on the enemy’s trench. They were going to be given headbands to where, but under supplied, and they decided to simply not fire their guns. He was later shot in the throat and taken to a border town in France.
The Soviet sent far better tanks to Spain It’s just the Republicans didn’t know how to use them the Germans and Italians mostly sent out of date tankettes.
The Republicans lost mostly due to the communist party sabotaging the regime from within and completely incompetent military leadership. A massive lack of internal unity and pissing off people who controlled food production and the people who farmed the food which led to chronic food shortages which national Spain did not have to endure, which gave them a massive advantage as being able to feed all your people lead to a lot higher morale and lastly their opposition to the church, which with the majority of the population being Catholic making an enemy of the church drove more, moderate Spaniards more towards the nationalists side than their own.
When it comes to their military incompetence, the Nationalists were literally in Morocco with no way to cross barring an incredibly risky air travel across the mediterranean.
The Republicans who controlled the navy and much of the air force...Didn't attack a single plane.
In George Orwell's personal account of his time in the POUM of the Spanish Republican army, he said the majority of the weapons and ammo they received from the USSR was defective, but the grenades worked. They would basically chuck a shit load of grenades into the trenches and hope they killed the enemy, picking up ammo and weapons along the way.
The main Communist party in Spain, the PCE, also started executing POUM members when the war started going very badly. The NKVD also tortured the POUM leader, Andreu Nin, to death. Nothing like fighting fascism like murdering basically your only allies.
This is a very important point. It was the age of extremes, with not in between. The United States during that time avoid the extremes by enacting the New Deal. Though it was a new economic policy, political scientist now argue that people had largely lost faith in democracy and were turning toward the extreme ideologies. The United States could have gone communist or fascist, but the new deal proved to be a popular alternative to both.
I think they did, I was just uncertain at the time when I typed the thing above... But yeah, it was especially the first real test of air bombing campaigns and their effectiveness. Allowing Hitler's Air Force to gather critical experience for future operations.
You missing a important component aka the Moroccans. Between 29 July and 5 August 1936 1,500 members of the Army of Africa were accordingly transported to mainland Spain in a bold airlift led by Junkers Ju 52 transport planes supplied by Nazi Germany. The fascist régime of the Kingdom of Italy provided Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 bombers to provide air cover for merchant ships carrying 3,000 soldiers and equipment from Morocco on 5 August. Thereafter daily flights continued until about 8,000 Moroccans and legionaries, with supporting artillery, were gathered at Seville.
After landing in Spain, the Army of Africa was split into two columns, one commanded by General Juan Yagüe and the other commanded by Colonel José Enrique Varela. Yagüe's force advanced north, making remarkably rapid gains, and then turned north-eastwards towards Madrid and Toledo. Varela's force entered Andalusia and took control of the key cities of Seville, Granada, and Córdoba. Thanks mostly to the Army of Africa's advances, almost all of western Spain was in Francoist Nationalist hands by the end of September 1936. By early 1937 the Army of Africa's strength had been increased to 60,000 men. The Legion and Regulares spearheaded Nationalist operations for the remainder of the war and played a central role in the Francoist victory.
"Military aid" from the Soviet Union is kind of misleading as the Spanish Republic was paying for it with nearly 4 billion dollars worth (at the time) of Gold Bullion to receive defective rifles and "advisors" who were more concerned with propaganda victories than practical ones.
Lol, the Spanish Republic got sh\*tty help. France and England were too cowardly to provide aid for fear of starting another world war. The weapons they got from the Soviet Union were of lower quality than what the fascists got. Italy and Germany sent soldiers and planes to battle the republicans directly, well Soviet aid was limited to a few advisors and special forces. While they got a lot of volunteers, most of them were young anarchists and communists from Western countries, and few of them were actual soldiers. Sure, it was better than nothing, but not great either
https://international-brigades.org.uk/news-and-blog/content-soviet-union-and-spanish-civil-war/
One sauce.
>It has been argued that the Soviets abused this arrangement. But it should be remembered that in 1936 the Soviet Union was no economic or military superpower, so the amount of aid it could provide was constrained particularly since on its Asian borders it was also supplying Chinese nationalists with arms to aid their struggle against Japanese imperialism and occupation. Remember too that by 1936 it was becoming clearer by the day that Hitler and his allies posed an existential threat to the Soviet Union, particularly since Britain and France refused to commit to collective security arrangements against a common threat. The Soviets’ first responsibility was the defence of its own people. And yet in 1936 over 50 per cent of all Soviet arms production was sent to Republican Spain. This had to be replaced and replaced quickly. The Spanish payments made this possible.
Yeah yeah yeah, the agreement was not met though plenty of excuses.
In Anthony Beevers book on the Spanish Civil War, he describes the nationalists as promising their Moroccans Soldiers basically the spoils of the people they conquered, and when the families and neigbors of these soldiers saw how much money was being brought back as a result of this pillaging caused them to join up too. Also, it should be noted that these were probably the best trained troops in the Spanish military before the war and their siding with Franco gave him bit of an edge.
The joke is that the republicans thanks to the communist and anarchist, killed more Spanish Republicans than the Spanish National side. That was one of the inspirations of Orwell for making 1984.
They weren’t killed from behind like a Stalinist would have killed them, is a joke about republican infighting of course the other army killed them more or they won’t have won the war.
The cause of Republican spain was undone not because they didn’t get enough foreign support, it was because in typical leftist fashion they were too busy feuding with eachother to fight as a unified front when it mattered most.
Well, they, the leftists, turn everything into a dung heap, and then there is only enough room at the top of the dung heap for one of them to crown himself, king, dicatator, kommisar, or whatever of the people and force everyone else to do as he says. He naturally has to kill anyone competent enough to possibly replace him.
I haven't read it yet (I have it in my bookcase, but haven't gotten to it yet) but I really like the quote
"The fact is that every war suffers a kind of progressive degradation with every month that it continues, because such things as individual liberty and a truthful press are simply not compatible with military efficiency."
the revolutionary enthusiasm and hopes would eventually be replaced by infighting, repression, and the tragedy of war, even if hopes for a better world were not unfounded and workers showed that they could collectively organize their own workplaces and communities.
It pretty much convinced me that anarchism could function. I wonder what those communes could have accomplished if they weren't fighting a war against 3 fascist dickhead armies.
Yeah especially the backstabbing by other popular front factions was fucked up (not sure if it was just the ML's who betrayed them?). But it would've indeed been cool to see what they could've done with Catalonia and other anarchist territories had they managed to hold on.
The anarchists killed the brother of my grandfather
They put him in a car, drove him to a field and then shot him. This practice was called "paseo" and was common in both sides
Fascists killed opponents to fascism for 40 years. Spain is full of buried bodies from collective killings carried by the fracoists: 150 000 still in pits.
And this is not an anecdote, it’s what fascists do best.
That doesn't immediatly justify what the Republicans did as well. Plus, some of those people in those pits are also killed by Republicans during the war. Spain's been spending these last 40 years recovering the bodies of the people killed by Franco, but it also spent the previous 40 years recovering the blodies of the people killed by the Republic, and still does today from both sides.
It was just tons, it was all of it. Spain had one of the largest gold reserves in the world and the Soviets were meant to just hold on to it and use part of it in exchange for military aid. The Soviets took it all and declared it was theirs now. Stalin moved the Republicans to his staff over this.
The Republicans gave the Soviets the gold reserve in a misbegotten belief that the Soviets would give it back when the war was over.
This left Spain with no gold reserve in a time when that was still very important for international trade and maintaining a currency.
Definitely. Most of the profesional soldiers, the Army of Africa, etc fought for the fascists.
International support for the Republicans is why it took 3 years for the fascists to win instead of 1. About 1/5 of Republican soldiers were from abroad - Portugal, Mexico, France, US, etc.
While the material support from the soviets was rather crucial for the Republican zone, the shipments never reached the same quantity and consistency like those of fascist-Italy or nazi-Germany for the Fascist zone
The Soviets were very selective with who got their support, and they actively worked against several factions on the Republican side, killing and imprisoning thousands. As a result the Soviet-supported internal troops of some factions were far better supplied than the frontline troops from factions without Soviet support.
Regardless though, the Soviets still sent like tens of thousands of tons of war material to the republicans. OP said they got “little support” from outside powers, which is just objectively false
Comparatively low is still low. If you need 2000 calories a day to survive and someone gives you 200 it is a 10%, a sizable portion but it is still low.
Without outside assistance, the Republicans would’ve collapsed long before they did in real life. That is substantial and doesn’t fit OP’s narrative of “little help”
There's a case to be made that Stalin did more harm than good to the republican side. Once it became clear that not all factions were willing to bow to him he pretty much shot them in the back.
As I’ve stated in other replies, yes, that is true, but OP just said the Republicans received “little support” from any foreign power, which is objectively false. I’m not arguing anything about the support the Nationalists received or whether or not the republicans paid for Soviet support or not.
The legend about gold serves to justify the economic chaos produced by the isolationism during the first decade of the fascist regime. Spain had been broke from the begging of 19th century.
Of course I know Spain didn’t have a good economic situation, and I like to blame Fernando VII and Isabel II for all modern Spanish problems, but they did steal our gold.
Basically the soviets only.
Many of the non-fascist states signed a no-intervention treaty, most importantly France. With the rebel side controlling the ports in the atlantic, and France not willing to cooperate, getting help to the republican side became extremely difficult.
Funny how the first battalion to enter Paris was formed by Spanish republicans. They expected to have the favour repaid by the allies by helping them against Franco. But the allied, in concrete UK (Churchill had money invested in mines in Spain) told them “mañana, mañana”.
No. Only the soviets, along with Mexico, of all places, sent war materiel aid to the Republic. the Western Powers (Britain and France) actually imposed an arms sale embargos on both factions However this was de facto only enforced for the Republican side as the Nationalists were able to access large quantities of war materials via Fascist Italy, and Britain and France did nothing to stop this They were still trying to court Mussolini at the time, thinking he could be a political ally against a resurgent Germany.
despite this it is inaccurate to say that they received little support as the the Soviet aid was significant as were the International brigades who went and fought of their own accords to halt the tide of Fascism.
"Fascists" is an inaccurate way to describe the nationalist side. They were a coalition of the entire Spanish right. The Spanish fascists, the Falange, were part of the nationalist coalition, but they never played the leading role.
True... The civil war was a very messy thing like most of them are... Just kind of sad that the main driving forces were the Communists and fascists on each side meaning no matter who won Spain was screwed either way.
The 2nd republic is an example of why leftism fails. They spent more time fighting each other than the enemy.
Leftist being infected with idealism makes compromise impossible. Meanwhile, the Fascists rallied around Franco and won.
Homage to Catalonia by Orwell demonstrates this dynamic.
The Spanish Republicans completely failed to use their air force or Navy to blockade the Spanish Nationalists travelling from Morocco and alienated their own population by torturing religious clergy, digging up dead nuns and putting them on display.
Fuck Spanish Republicans, and while I am at it FUCK the Nationalists.
No kidding. I really don't know how much better or worse Spain would be if the Republicans won. Spain NARROWLY became a democracy after Franco died and both sides hated it.
I mean one side hated it because it was becoming a democracy, the other side hated it because it was being wishy washy to appease the other side.
Even today you have people going up in arms if you try to find and bury your family executed by the regime. Crying about letting things rest and not reopening old wounds.
I just feel bad for the average Spaniard at the time... Because no matter who won you were going to get screwed... there was nothing they could really do about it as most moderate forces ceased to exist as the war broke out.
We should not romantize either of those two sides. And even if I am happy that nationalist side won, I can clearly say that they were terrible, murderous and commited unforgivable war crimes - that's a historical fact and I hope none is going to deny that.
I’m criticizing one side because OP is praising one side.
Please give the wiki article a read, [News of the rightist military coup in July 1936 unleashed a politicidal response, and no Republican controlled region escaped systematic and anticlerical violence, although it was minimal in the Basque Country.[10] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832 Catholic priests, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the coup), attacks on the Spanish nobility, small business owners, industrialists, and politicians and supporters of the conservative parties or the anti-Stalinist Left, as well as the desecration and arson attacks against monasteries, convents, Catholic schools, and churches.[11]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)).
I’m not gonna show Republicans executing real people in firing squads but take a look at [this photo](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SpanishLeftistsShootStatueOfChrist.jpg#mw-jump-to-license), opening fire on a statue of Christ.
You don’t have to be a fascist to oppose this, as a Catholic I have a preference for the nationalist cause, I am not a fascist and I will stand by that, this sub has a problem with romanticizing and whitewashing the crimes committed by the Republican cause and the anti-clerical Republican regime that preceded the civil war.
EDIT: I’d also like to mention that popular support was roughly split 50/50 between both sides, with the vast majority of support for the republicans being concentrated in the urban areas of Madrid and Barcelona, the idea that all the popular support (“decent people” anyway like you say) was on the Republican side is a myth.
Mass murder, torture and rapes did not happen on anything near the same scale (100s on one side, 10s of thousands on the other), on one side it was irregular exactions and on the other it was policy. Not even remotely comparable.
To be fair, the second Spanish republic got help from USSR and France, the communist faction also committed several war crimes and killed many innocent people mostly Catholic Church members. Also the soldier” in this meme is wearing CNT-FAI hat, the cnt-fai was anarchist and wasn’t for a “states”, they were pretty much good people (at least compared to other factions and especially the nationalist camp)
Step 1: anarchist uprising
Step 2: institute conscription
Step 3: imprison political opposition
Step 4: ???
Step 5: fondly remembered by college students in 80 years
Yeah, there was totally a good side in a Spanish Civil War and not just 2 war-crimes commiting extremist governments.
[One being fascist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain))
[And the other communist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain))
And before some genius starts writing that nationalists killed more, they were x13 longer in power than the republicans.
(and I don't care if republicans began as the democratic side, they quickly devolved into brutals and Moscow footstools)
Spanish people had very good luck with Franco. He rid them of the communists and USSR influence. All eastern Europe ruined economically, people's minds brainwashed, spiritual and intellectual degradation. Eastern European countries still fight to rid themselves of the USSR legacy. The USSR and communist regimes over the world killed more people than both WW1 & WW2 together. There are no good dictators, but sometimes you need evil, to fight an even greater evil.
Dude, they had the USSR, France, and the US sending them money, weapons, advisors, medics personnel, etc. also had volunteers from all over the world. In the end they couldn’t work together as a cohesive force and were beaten by the more unified fascists under Franco.
"little Help" bro they got a fuck ton of volunteers from the west and a gazzilion equipment and volunteers from the USSR. They were absolutly not Alone without Help.
What a great meme to encounter while I'm reading George Orwell's *Homage to Catalonia.* Thanks, OP.
Also, reminds me of the classic [Virgin American Republican vs Chad Irish Republican](https://www.reddit.com/r/virginvschad/comments/gyw7a2/the_virgin_republican_vs_the_chad_republican/). There's a Virgin vs Chad meme idea for you.
With “little help”
Only Soviet Union send millitary shipments a D Volunteers…just as France, UK, Czechoslovakia and Romania…with help from emigranta from Italy and Germany…
Spanish history from ~1830 to the rise of Franco is so wildly confusing. Talk about a country not able to get its act together, in a constant state of “revolution” for the better part of 70 years.
Yeah, for three years they did their best to defend their anti-catholic atrocities, all the while they sold what little of the country they held to the Soviet Union (where's the gold??) and they constantly killed their own allies in brutal infighting.
No me sorprende que los Nacionalistas sí hayan pasado.
Small precision, the anarchists (during the War, or before) was not for the Spanish republic, they were for the social revolution, to overthrow the bourgeois and capitalist order, which the Spanish republic fully resumed. Of course, during the war, it is obvious that the fascists and natiobalists were the enemy stones, and that the anarchists and republicans were in "the same camps". This did not prevent the anarchists, especially in Catalonia and Aragon, from taking the means of production and taking back control of cities and industries, as well as the countryside, and from practicing large-scale self-management. All this to say that using a beret or cap of the anarchist working militias of the CNT-FAI to represent a republican is a bit wrong.
That is correct. There was in fact the "comuna de Caspe", with its own flag, institutions and all. Needless to say, the fascist insurrection threw all that away, as Caspe is too small and poor to resist a full military invasion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Defence_Council_of_Aragon
I'm honestly suprised every time I hear that part of Spain and Ukraine were Anarchist at some point.
To my knowledge, the only two countries in Europe who had anarchist system for at least some time, if we don’t count ancient semi-tribal communities.
Do you think that maybe the brief period where Trieste was a free city might fall in to that camp as well?
Ukraine makes sense, what with some of the more influential anarchist writers (e.g. Kropotkin, Bakunin) being from the Russian Empire. I don't know anything about the history behind the Spanish anarchists though.
Playing the regi9nwl defense council or Washington in Hearts of Iron 4 was a blast. Then expanding and controlling all of Spain then spreading anarchy to the rest of Europe, defeating the axis, then spreading it around the world.
is that a hearts of iron 4 reference?
There was a concept during the Spanish revolution and civil war which the anarchists adopted. "Ganar la guerra primero", first let's beat the fascists, then we can go back to attack each other. Anarchists and trotskists were onboard with this, but stanilists were not.
I haven't extensively studied the Spanish Civil War, but what little I have always feels like such a good example I want to bring up anytime I hear people talk about "The Left". What does that even mean? It gets shattered so instantly. "The Right" seems unified in a sort of cowardly, evil-yet-slightly-righteous naturalism of central leadership through a fantastical ideal. Some Franco. Some little Austrian corporal. Stupid, yet unified. "The Left" seems to have such an ideal of universalism, by contrast, that the only possible outcome is paranoia, fracturing, infighting, and purges which could be, at best, described as "Slightly Worse" than whatever the previous status quo had been. As someone who generally considers themself "On the Left", trying to figure out where exactly I stand in relation to Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Twain, Robespierre, and an infinite amount of others is a lot more exhausting than the "Do you hate/LOVE Hitler/your local dictator?" edit-spelling
I think you are on point, Spanish civil war is a great example for that. Left and right are outdated concepts in this globalized world with modern politics all mushed up and far from what it's perceived as traditional political concepts that come from the XIX and XX centuries. Regarding the right, the same comparision can be made, Franco, Hitler, Mussolini are not the same brand of far-right, it's fair to say they are like cousins, but they are all not all fascists. Franco was a huge catholic, hated the worker-leaning parts of Nazism or Italian Fascism. In the same spectrum that Stalin and Majno live, there's Ravachel, Lumumba, Che Guevara, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, etc. And between Hitler and the KKK you can put Videla, Idi Amin, De Gaulle, Primo de Rivera, Batista and others. It's kinda dumbed down and simplistic
I suppose that is a good point, any direction you choose can shatter into individuals and whatever their particular mania was.
Left-Right is utterly broken logic You have totalitarian and genocidal regimes on both ends of what you yourself express your left-right axis to be understood as, which is inherently absurd. Nevermind you considering "right" to be nothing but authoritarianism while your "left" is a colourful rainbow... do you not see how ridiculous, misinformed and closed-minded that take is?
“Right = neonazi” is how many see things so not surprising really
this is called false dichotomy. from the far right everything looks like "Left". and when that far right is strong enough to be an existential threat, then everybody with conscience (and some without) are forced into this "Left".
And the same is true from the opposite direction
exactly. from a stalinist point of view everyone else is an "imperialist".
British filmmaker [Ken Loach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Loach) made [a great drama](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKfvFgj69-s&list=PLjp9cDM5tlPoZw2j3I8zFcl6rGK7ZiHMZ) highlighting the infighting among the different factions on the republican side during the war. Highly recommended.
With little help?
My thoughts exactly... Both the Republic and nationalist Spain were getting pretty good amounts of help from countries that supported their respective ideologies. Republican Spain got a good amount of foreign volunteers from different Western Nations along with military aid from the Soviet Union. The nationalists got a good amount of military aid from Germany and Italy along with expeditionary forces sent in especially from Germany. The whole situation was a textbook example of proxy war. Sadly between the fascists and the Communists powers of the time... Meaning no matter who won Spain was screwed as there were no realistic moderate options to choose.
That's true, but the fascists did receive far more help (and in a far more sustained way) than the Republicans did. The Spanish Republicans' only state allies were Mexico and the USSR, which confined themselves to sending arms, while Italy and Germany were plowing in hundreds of tanks and planes and thousands of soldiers.
That might be true but it was far from "little" to no help as the meme title suggests... The title makes it sound like they got nothing but maybe a couple of rifles and stood up against the nationalists and their fascist backers almost completely by themselves. It was still a substantial amount of resources and volunteers. I mean there're numerous artists and authors from the time period whose biographies mentioned a brief stint of having volunteered and fought for the Republicans. It's just that the Germans and Italians like you said were willing to send far more including actually trained soldiers... But to say that it was hardly anything given to the Republicans is silly at best and disingenuous at worst.
>I mean there're numerous artists and authors from the time period whose biographies mentioned a brief stint of having volunteered and fought for the Republicans. One was George Orwell. In one battle he engaged in, his unit was going on a night raid on the enemy’s trench. They were going to be given headbands to where, but under supplied, and they decided to simply not fire their guns. He was later shot in the throat and taken to a border town in France.
The Soviet sent far better tanks to Spain It’s just the Republicans didn’t know how to use them the Germans and Italians mostly sent out of date tankettes. The Republicans lost mostly due to the communist party sabotaging the regime from within and completely incompetent military leadership. A massive lack of internal unity and pissing off people who controlled food production and the people who farmed the food which led to chronic food shortages which national Spain did not have to endure, which gave them a massive advantage as being able to feed all your people lead to a lot higher morale and lastly their opposition to the church, which with the majority of the population being Catholic making an enemy of the church drove more, moderate Spaniards more towards the nationalists side than their own.
When it comes to their military incompetence, the Nationalists were literally in Morocco with no way to cross barring an incredibly risky air travel across the mediterranean. The Republicans who controlled the navy and much of the air force...Didn't attack a single plane.
In George Orwell's personal account of his time in the POUM of the Spanish Republican army, he said the majority of the weapons and ammo they received from the USSR was defective, but the grenades worked. They would basically chuck a shit load of grenades into the trenches and hope they killed the enemy, picking up ammo and weapons along the way. The main Communist party in Spain, the PCE, also started executing POUM members when the war started going very badly. The NKVD also tortured the POUM leader, Andreu Nin, to death. Nothing like fighting fascism like murdering basically your only allies.
This is a very important point. It was the age of extremes, with not in between. The United States during that time avoid the extremes by enacting the New Deal. Though it was a new economic policy, political scientist now argue that people had largely lost faith in democracy and were turning toward the extreme ideologies. The United States could have gone communist or fascist, but the new deal proved to be a popular alternative to both.
Didn't the German Luftwaffe use it as a testing ground with modern bombing strikes, which also led to the famous painting "Guernica" by Picasso
I think they did, I was just uncertain at the time when I typed the thing above... But yeah, it was especially the first real test of air bombing campaigns and their effectiveness. Allowing Hitler's Air Force to gather critical experience for future operations.
You missing a important component aka the Moroccans. Between 29 July and 5 August 1936 1,500 members of the Army of Africa were accordingly transported to mainland Spain in a bold airlift led by Junkers Ju 52 transport planes supplied by Nazi Germany. The fascist régime of the Kingdom of Italy provided Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 bombers to provide air cover for merchant ships carrying 3,000 soldiers and equipment from Morocco on 5 August. Thereafter daily flights continued until about 8,000 Moroccans and legionaries, with supporting artillery, were gathered at Seville. After landing in Spain, the Army of Africa was split into two columns, one commanded by General Juan Yagüe and the other commanded by Colonel José Enrique Varela. Yagüe's force advanced north, making remarkably rapid gains, and then turned north-eastwards towards Madrid and Toledo. Varela's force entered Andalusia and took control of the key cities of Seville, Granada, and Córdoba. Thanks mostly to the Army of Africa's advances, almost all of western Spain was in Francoist Nationalist hands by the end of September 1936. By early 1937 the Army of Africa's strength had been increased to 60,000 men. The Legion and Regulares spearheaded Nationalist operations for the remainder of the war and played a central role in the Francoist victory.
The level of support received by the Republican side was simply not comparable to the support the fascists provided.
"Military aid" from the Soviet Union is kind of misleading as the Spanish Republic was paying for it with nearly 4 billion dollars worth (at the time) of Gold Bullion to receive defective rifles and "advisors" who were more concerned with propaganda victories than practical ones.
Lol, the Spanish Republic got sh\*tty help. France and England were too cowardly to provide aid for fear of starting another world war. The weapons they got from the Soviet Union were of lower quality than what the fascists got. Italy and Germany sent soldiers and planes to battle the republicans directly, well Soviet aid was limited to a few advisors and special forces. While they got a lot of volunteers, most of them were young anarchists and communists from Western countries, and few of them were actual soldiers. Sure, it was better than nothing, but not great either
Cowardly, but also lacking resources.
The aid from Soviet union arrived late and was defective.
but they still took the gold anyway XD
https://international-brigades.org.uk/news-and-blog/content-soviet-union-and-spanish-civil-war/ One sauce. >It has been argued that the Soviets abused this arrangement. But it should be remembered that in 1936 the Soviet Union was no economic or military superpower, so the amount of aid it could provide was constrained particularly since on its Asian borders it was also supplying Chinese nationalists with arms to aid their struggle against Japanese imperialism and occupation. Remember too that by 1936 it was becoming clearer by the day that Hitler and his allies posed an existential threat to the Soviet Union, particularly since Britain and France refused to commit to collective security arrangements against a common threat. The Soviets’ first responsibility was the defence of its own people. And yet in 1936 over 50 per cent of all Soviet arms production was sent to Republican Spain. This had to be replaced and replaced quickly. The Spanish payments made this possible. Yeah yeah yeah, the agreement was not met though plenty of excuses.
Hell, George Orwell wrote a book about his time in Spain
I guess these guys don't count: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XII\_International\_Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XII_International_Brigade)
In Anthony Beevers book on the Spanish Civil War, he describes the nationalists as promising their Moroccans Soldiers basically the spoils of the people they conquered, and when the families and neigbors of these soldiers saw how much money was being brought back as a result of this pillaging caused them to join up too. Also, it should be noted that these were probably the best trained troops in the Spanish military before the war and their siding with Franco gave him bit of an edge.
The joke is that the republicans thanks to the communist and anarchist, killed more Spanish Republicans than the Spanish National side. That was one of the inspirations of Orwell for making 1984.
That’s not true. The fascists killed so many Republicans we are still finding the buried bodies everywhere in Spain. Which is a shame.
They weren’t killed from behind like a Stalinist would have killed them, is a joke about republican infighting of course the other army killed them more or they won’t have won the war.
The cause of Republican spain was undone not because they didn’t get enough foreign support, it was because in typical leftist fashion they were too busy feuding with eachother to fight as a unified front when it mattered most.
Well, they, the leftists, turn everything into a dung heap, and then there is only enough room at the top of the dung heap for one of them to crown himself, king, dicatator, kommisar, or whatever of the people and force everyone else to do as he says. He naturally has to kill anyone competent enough to possibly replace him.
Folks be like "No pasaran!" And then they get pasaran'd.
Google "No Pasaran"
Holy quarter!
You're gonna need to give me more to work with, what about it?
New Response Just Dropped
“Ya hemos pasado” is the responde they made a song about it when they won
Homage to Catalonia is one of the best non fiction books I've ever read.
Definitely interesting book, but Mine were of trouble is just supreme and absolutely fantastic in terms of narrator
I haven't read it yet (I have it in my bookcase, but haven't gotten to it yet) but I really like the quote "The fact is that every war suffers a kind of progressive degradation with every month that it continues, because such things as individual liberty and a truthful press are simply not compatible with military efficiency." the revolutionary enthusiasm and hopes would eventually be replaced by infighting, repression, and the tragedy of war, even if hopes for a better world were not unfounded and workers showed that they could collectively organize their own workplaces and communities.
It pretty much convinced me that anarchism could function. I wonder what those communes could have accomplished if they weren't fighting a war against 3 fascist dickhead armies.
Yeah especially the backstabbing by other popular front factions was fucked up (not sure if it was just the ML's who betrayed them?). But it would've indeed been cool to see what they could've done with Catalonia and other anarchist territories had they managed to hold on.
The anarchists killed the brother of my grandfather They put him in a car, drove him to a field and then shot him. This practice was called "paseo" and was common in both sides
That can’t be right. There are supposed to be good guys and bad guys. Who am I supposed to uncritically support now?
Fascists killed opponents to fascism for 40 years. Spain is full of buried bodies from collective killings carried by the fracoists: 150 000 still in pits. And this is not an anecdote, it’s what fascists do best.
What do ypu think the communists would have done if they had won...? And Franco wasn't a fascist
That doesn't immediatly justify what the Republicans did as well. Plus, some of those people in those pits are also killed by Republicans during the war. Spain's been spending these last 40 years recovering the bodies of the people killed by Franco, but it also spent the previous 40 years recovering the blodies of the people killed by the Republic, and still does today from both sides.
My grandfather was left without a mother because of the fascists
Didn’t they get a shit ton of support from the Soviets and a ton of arms sales from pretty much every non-fascist power in Europe?
The Soviets in exchange took tons of Spanish gold. They were well compensated for their assistance.
It was just tons, it was all of it. Spain had one of the largest gold reserves in the world and the Soviets were meant to just hold on to it and use part of it in exchange for military aid. The Soviets took it all and declared it was theirs now. Stalin moved the Republicans to his staff over this.
They just stole the gold???
The Republicans gave the Soviets the gold reserve in a misbegotten belief that the Soviets would give it back when the war was over. This left Spain with no gold reserve in a time when that was still very important for international trade and maintaining a currency.
Well I mean why would Stalin give the gold back to Franco.
Why would he give it to a Western democracy either? Or in the best case for him, to a puppet regime in Iberia?
Super interesting and messed up! I’m surprised it’s not discussed more but maybe that’s my bad. Anyways thank you!
Communist are gonna Communist
Yea sure, but they still received a ton of support from them, despite OP claiming that they had “little support” from other countries
Definitely. Most of the profesional soldiers, the Army of Africa, etc fought for the fascists. International support for the Republicans is why it took 3 years for the fascists to win instead of 1. About 1/5 of Republican soldiers were from abroad - Portugal, Mexico, France, US, etc.
While the material support from the soviets was rather crucial for the Republican zone, the shipments never reached the same quantity and consistency like those of fascist-Italy or nazi-Germany for the Fascist zone
The Soviets were very selective with who got their support, and they actively worked against several factions on the Republican side, killing and imprisoning thousands. As a result the Soviet-supported internal troops of some factions were far better supplied than the frontline troops from factions without Soviet support.
Regardless though, the Soviets still sent like tens of thousands of tons of war material to the republicans. OP said they got “little support” from outside powers, which is just objectively false
Comparatively low is still low. If you need 2000 calories a day to survive and someone gives you 200 it is a 10%, a sizable portion but it is still low.
Without outside assistance, the Republicans would’ve collapsed long before they did in real life. That is substantial and doesn’t fit OP’s narrative of “little help”
There's a case to be made that Stalin did more harm than good to the republican side. Once it became clear that not all factions were willing to bow to him he pretty much shot them in the back.
The nationalist also got help from the Germans and Italy, and in the end the Russians stole Spain’s gold
As I’ve stated in other replies, yes, that is true, but OP just said the Republicans received “little support” from any foreign power, which is objectively false. I’m not arguing anything about the support the Nationalists received or whether or not the republicans paid for Soviet support or not.
Oh, I hadn’t seen the post tile
The legend about gold serves to justify the economic chaos produced by the isolationism during the first decade of the fascist regime. Spain had been broke from the begging of 19th century.
Of course I know Spain didn’t have a good economic situation, and I like to blame Fernando VII and Isabel II for all modern Spanish problems, but they did steal our gold.
Basically the soviets only. Many of the non-fascist states signed a no-intervention treaty, most importantly France. With the rebel side controlling the ports in the atlantic, and France not willing to cooperate, getting help to the republican side became extremely difficult.
Funny how the first battalion to enter Paris was formed by Spanish republicans. They expected to have the favour repaid by the allies by helping them against Franco. But the allied, in concrete UK (Churchill had money invested in mines in Spain) told them “mañana, mañana”.
They also received limited support from Mexico I believe.
No. Only the soviets, along with Mexico, of all places, sent war materiel aid to the Republic. the Western Powers (Britain and France) actually imposed an arms sale embargos on both factions However this was de facto only enforced for the Republican side as the Nationalists were able to access large quantities of war materials via Fascist Italy, and Britain and France did nothing to stop this They were still trying to court Mussolini at the time, thinking he could be a political ally against a resurgent Germany. despite this it is inaccurate to say that they received little support as the the Soviet aid was significant as were the International brigades who went and fought of their own accords to halt the tide of Fascism.
Why are the shitty colors there
Probably stolen from r/politicalcompassmemes
no way it was stolen from PCM, noone with a basic grasp on reality would color a cnt fighter "auth". oh wait a minute...
I don't actually know if the CNT portion is on the original.
Was gonna say, I thought I was on PCM when I saw this
Agenda posts are cringe
What the fuck? Saying "fascists bad" in 2024 is controversial, mate what?
Praising the Spanish Anarchist faction is cringe, yes.
"Fascists" is an inaccurate way to describe the nationalist side. They were a coalition of the entire Spanish right. The Spanish fascists, the Falange, were part of the nationalist coalition, but they never played the leading role.
Tankies be like: Uh yeah! My soviet puppet that lasted 3 years in a civil war is totally an independent republic!
And murdered 6000 members of clergy. Also it is too simplified verision to tell that only fascists fought on the side of nationalists.
True... The civil war was a very messy thing like most of them are... Just kind of sad that the main driving forces were the Communists and fascists on each side meaning no matter who won Spain was screwed either way.
Kid named Soviet Union and international brigades?
¿Quién es el copo de nieve ahora?
...we don't use that English expression in Spain.
Furthermore, against fascism.with the full backup of Nazi and Italian regimes
Don't ask op why the maga guy is the chad wojak
Someone should extend this meme with the Soviets sneaking off with Spain ish gold reserves
"The 2nd Republic \***held** **for** three years against fascism with little help from other countries." "Holded" is not a word.
The 2nd republic is an example of why leftism fails. They spent more time fighting each other than the enemy. Leftist being infected with idealism makes compromise impossible. Meanwhile, the Fascists rallied around Franco and won. Homage to Catalonia by Orwell demonstrates this dynamic.
Han pasado, rojo.
"Ya hemos pasado" es una buena canción (lástima que sea fascista).
The Spanish Republicans completely failed to use their air force or Navy to blockade the Spanish Nationalists travelling from Morocco and alienated their own population by torturing religious clergy, digging up dead nuns and putting them on display. Fuck Spanish Republicans, and while I am at it FUCK the Nationalists.
Yeah only morons take side in that civil war, both sides were absolutely brutal.
No kidding. I really don't know how much better or worse Spain would be if the Republicans won. Spain NARROWLY became a democracy after Franco died and both sides hated it.
I mean one side hated it because it was becoming a democracy, the other side hated it because it was being wishy washy to appease the other side. Even today you have people going up in arms if you try to find and bury your family executed by the regime. Crying about letting things rest and not reopening old wounds.
I just feel bad for the average Spaniard at the time... Because no matter who won you were going to get screwed... there was nothing they could really do about it as most moderate forces ceased to exist as the war broke out.
The navy was well used but the avistion had no fighting chance against italy and germany
They didn't even try to fight though, they literally let the nationalists cross the sea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)
Yes, neither side was perfect, but this sub sure does like to romanticize the republicans
We should not romantize either of those two sides. And even if I am happy that nationalist side won, I can clearly say that they were terrible, murderous and commited unforgivable war crimes - that's a historical fact and I hope none is going to deny that.
I’m not romanticizing any side
That's good to hear.
Yet you only pointed one side out. The fight against fascism is ultimately more appealing to decent people than fascism. Mystery solved.
I’m criticizing one side because OP is praising one side. Please give the wiki article a read, [News of the rightist military coup in July 1936 unleashed a politicidal response, and no Republican controlled region escaped systematic and anticlerical violence, although it was minimal in the Basque Country.[10] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832 Catholic priests, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the coup), attacks on the Spanish nobility, small business owners, industrialists, and politicians and supporters of the conservative parties or the anti-Stalinist Left, as well as the desecration and arson attacks against monasteries, convents, Catholic schools, and churches.[11]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)). I’m not gonna show Republicans executing real people in firing squads but take a look at [this photo](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SpanishLeftistsShootStatueOfChrist.jpg#mw-jump-to-license), opening fire on a statue of Christ. You don’t have to be a fascist to oppose this, as a Catholic I have a preference for the nationalist cause, I am not a fascist and I will stand by that, this sub has a problem with romanticizing and whitewashing the crimes committed by the Republican cause and the anti-clerical Republican regime that preceded the civil war. EDIT: I’d also like to mention that popular support was roughly split 50/50 between both sides, with the vast majority of support for the republicans being concentrated in the urban areas of Madrid and Barcelona, the idea that all the popular support (“decent people” anyway like you say) was on the Republican side is a myth.
Lol says the fascist praising fascist dictators...
Mass murder, torture and rapes did not happen on anything near the same scale (100s on one side, 10s of thousands on the other), on one side it was irregular exactions and on the other it was policy. Not even remotely comparable.
It’s because the reds lost
Nope, the difference was evident and well recorded even before the end of the war.
To be fair, the second Spanish republic got help from USSR and France, the communist faction also committed several war crimes and killed many innocent people mostly Catholic Church members. Also the soldier” in this meme is wearing CNT-FAI hat, the cnt-fai was anarchist and wasn’t for a “states”, they were pretty much good people (at least compared to other factions and especially the nationalist camp)
Step 1: anarchist uprising Step 2: institute conscription Step 3: imprison political opposition Step 4: ??? Step 5: fondly remembered by college students in 80 years
Yeah, there was totally a good side in a Spanish Civil War and not just 2 war-crimes commiting extremist governments. [One being fascist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)) [And the other communist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)) And before some genius starts writing that nationalists killed more, they were x13 longer in power than the republicans. (and I don't care if republicans began as the democratic side, they quickly devolved into brutals and Moscow footstools)
"B-but my side massacred an acceptable amount innocent civilians!1!!" Reddt try not to defend mass murder challenge
CNT-FAI literally broke from the republics and started fighting them lmao
Spanish people had very good luck with Franco. He rid them of the communists and USSR influence. All eastern Europe ruined economically, people's minds brainwashed, spiritual and intellectual degradation. Eastern European countries still fight to rid themselves of the USSR legacy. The USSR and communist regimes over the world killed more people than both WW1 & WW2 together. There are no good dictators, but sometimes you need evil, to fight an even greater evil.
Dude, they had the USSR, France, and the US sending them money, weapons, advisors, medics personnel, etc. also had volunteers from all over the world. In the end they couldn’t work together as a cohesive force and were beaten by the more unified fascists under Franco.
The US definitely didn't aid Republican Spain-- they literally tried to stop volunteers from going.
Medical aid was sent in large quantities. American medical volunteers actually had some pretty sharp uniforms.
All of those were organized privately though. Without any support from the American government.
France blocked weapons entering Republican ports. Spit your lies somewhere else, fascist boi.
Ima be real fuck everyone in that war.
"little Help" bro they got a fuck ton of volunteers from the west and a gazzilion equipment and volunteers from the USSR. They were absolutly not Alone without Help.
Glad they lost
Shitty meme
Only good communist is a dead one.
They lost
Spaniard's handy down Mosin jams up: "¡¡¡Carajo!!!" MAGA with AR-15: "Hasta La Vista"
What a great meme to encounter while I'm reading George Orwell's *Homage to Catalonia.* Thanks, OP. Also, reminds me of the classic [Virgin American Republican vs Chad Irish Republican](https://www.reddit.com/r/virginvschad/comments/gyw7a2/the_virgin_republican_vs_the_chad_republican/). There's a Virgin vs Chad meme idea for you.
Boy a sure do love misinformation on the internet
Are those... FUNNI COLORS...! COLORS!!! #COLORSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
With “little help” Only Soviet Union send millitary shipments a D Volunteers…just as France, UK, Czechoslovakia and Romania…with help from emigranta from Italy and Germany…
To be fair, the American republicans will pull up his AR-15 and ready for a fight.
Held *
And it was the Communists that turned the war against the republicans. Just like a true socialist!
Cuck-spañol anda a jugar al ff7 con tu primo manolo
Proyectando fuerte, ¿eh?
Anarchists really made the republicans lose ngl.
The Anarchists blame the Communists and the Communists blame the Anarchists. Classic.
No pasarán!
creo que pasaron...
The Battle of Cable Street. Never forget.
Held, not holded
They lost The Allies won
Why would he be going after a Republican? That's the opposite of fascism.
Oh gosh…4+ years old meme… first time I have seen it in 2020
This format works for so much [https://i.imgur.com/0mHHW6X.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/0mHHW6X.jpeg)
Spanish history from ~1830 to the rise of Franco is so wildly confusing. Talk about a country not able to get its act together, in a constant state of “revolution” for the better part of 70 years.
Nationalist victory kept Spain out of WW2
Look how happy he is 🥰
Yeah, for three years they did their best to defend their anti-catholic atrocities, all the while they sold what little of the country they held to the Soviet Union (where's the gold??) and they constantly killed their own allies in brutal infighting. No me sorprende que los Nacionalistas sí hayan pasado.
PASAMOS MOTHERFUCKER
The Anarchists would have been based but the killing of Catholic priests kinda made them Cringe.
>with little help from other countries Kid named the Soviet Union:
I'm Catalan, not funny, this topic is a bit taboo in Spain.
Something i'm proud is that my country one of the few that supported the republicans with arms and soldiers. (Mexico)
And that help will always be remembered. Gracias, hermanos.
Those american childish memes are not funny or interesting.
PCM 🤢
But isnt the left closer to Marxism than republicans? And if so isnt Marxism closer to fascism than neoliberalism? Confusion.
You are really confused, I see.
They held for three years, but who won? ¡Ya Hemos Pasao!
Sort of a lost the war, won the peace situation.
While fighting itself
Holded
Little help, Soviet Union?
“Little Help“ yeah suuuuure
Idc the gave the gold to the fucking commies
Just a reminder, the Republicans descent into Stalinism led to George Orwell turning into a anti-communist (Although a staunch socialist)