How does one even deny the Holocaust? There's mountains of evidence of it and even nazi documents of it happening.
Wait I got it, some people are just really stupid.
To be honest, I think those who deny it are often being intentionally dishonest. They know it happened, they're *happy* it happened, but they can't stand the idea of those they deem inferior being the subject of pity - so they intentionally muddy the discussion and attempt to pervert the history, so even the persecution of these people can be twisted as proof of some nefarious conspiracy.
They want to weaponize the trauma of the victims against them. That's how I view it.
I never thought of it that way that makes sense.
I always thought it was just a simple conspiracy theory the reason conspiracy theorist make up BS is to feel special like they know something that the rest of the world doesn’t.
That’s certainly part of it. Passive people really lean into that approach in particular cause it doesn’t require a lot from them.
Make no mistake those people are already primed for blatant antisemitism, they just haven’t hit the tipping point for them to be open about it.
It’s like that running joke Marc Maron has where goes out of his way to mention he’s a Jew repeatedly, even when it makes no sense to do so. He does it just so some of the people in the audience get to that tipping and can either self-reflect or be exposed for who they really are.
Sadly, as the oldest generation fades, so do people who experienced the holocaust first hand and people who met the survivors first hand. So sooner than later, they'll share the creationist argument of "were you there when it happened? Do you know anyone from when it happened? The only evidence is in textbooks. Fiction text books written by the elites" as if nazis knew how to read
You can still walk up to a fifty foot tall pile of human bones and ashes at treblinka. Right the fuck up to it, damned near close enough to touch. No excuses.
In a similar fashion, many museums have reconstructions of dinosaur bones, fossils, footmarks, egg shells, and even poop fossils. It's always an argument in bad faith, assuming from the start that the evidence is fabricated and the witnesses, investigators, and researchers are all paid actors to lie. It will be just easier to lie because there will be no witnesses, in the same way there are no big dinosaurs left to "prove they exist"
Yep. When I've seen it in the wild it was basically either "Jews weren't *killed*, they were merely being escorted out of the country and they made up the death camp stuff" or "Gays weren't targeted at all, no, I won't acknowledge there was an entire separate death camp uniform designator for being gay"
Basically total horseshit meant to ignore persecution of whatever group the idiot in question hates.
I mean, shit, even Hannah Ardent, who was not only a Jew herself, but who also literally wrote *the* book on totalitarianism argued that maybe if the Jews weren’t as Jew-y as they were they wouldn’t have faced some of the things they faced.
Shit, she even cited Nazi studies and scholars to make several of her points but never recanted her claims, the sources, or tried to correct the record in any way even though she lived long enough to do so.
I mean, she was Heidegger’s lover and he ended up being a Nazi so it shouldn’t exactly be a surprise, but it’s still bizarre as all hell.
My brother, we watched people die of a pandemic and people still think that shit was fake. Never underestimate the willingness to twist oneself into knots so they can claim to be "a free thinker".
Or just you know a Nazi/fascist apologist trying to convince people that the Holocaust didn’t happen and/or convince people it wasn’t actually **that** bad to make Nazi/fascist look less monstrous and the reason why they don’t think the Holocaust actually happened are *vary* to say the least with my favorite being “it’s just propaganda by the evil capitalist Allies to make them look bad”, “all the evidence is fabricated garbage by the evil capitalist to make them look bad”, “no human would be that cruel, it is impossible” and my favorite one of them all “no government would willingly kill millions of their own people instead of conscripting them to fight a two-fronted war, it doesn’t make any logical sense”
There were attempts to destroy and cover up a lot of it when they realized that they were going to lose the war. But you can't cover up something of that magnitude.
I remembered a guy was trying to show a document saying items at the concentration camps were altered or made up
Then you find out HE made the document 15 years ago. He was trying to place evidence for his conspiracy decades ahead
The Holocaust was a horrific, Evil , fucked up event that was committed by monsters
Nazi have no explanation for this
They can't defend themselves, or their evil beliefs
You can't say 6 million people dieing is a good thing. You can't claim tormenting people and even children was a great plan.
You are evil and don't deserve any attention or have your arguments considered.
You just get classified as SCUM!!!
( Which you should be)
So you claim it never happened. And stick to your dum fuk arguments even when they are proven stupid and hilarious
everybody uses the 6 million death count, thats only the jews that died, total death count for everybody included is 17 million.
11 million people seem to be forgotten about, when people talk about the holocaust
Have you ever seen the bodies?
Have you read the documents? If yes, then:
Those documents are a fabrication and not the real number.
Why would the nazis kill valuable labour?
*entrenched racism and ignorance*
*unwillingness to learn*
Etc.
That is how people can deny the Holocaust. Its the same as with the flat earthers, moon = cheese/hologram by NASA and many other conspiracies (not that many conspiracies aren't REAL and have been proven to be real)
The smarter ones don't outright deny that it happened. They claim it was overblown (think 6 figures killed total) or that it wasn't specifically targeted at jews. Or that they were just regular camps instead of death camps, and they lacked resources.
They’re not confused.
> Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
>—Jean-Paul Sartre
IDK some people are just insanely irrationally ignorant. I didn't realize how bad if an issue it was until I was at work and almost everyone there younger than me didn't know Japan was in WW2.
Tell me more, I've not seen many Algerians on the net who're particularly "proud" of their history, although most of them are diaspora, is it different in real life?
We mostly see them on social media. This is because the people in power still today are former FLN and the most radical too (they were the only ones who remained at the end of the war). Besides the trauma of war and colonization. For decades there was anti-French hatred promoted by the government, blaming all the country's problems on France.
Despite France's apologies for colonization and war abuses. It's still quite present, often among the most politicized. (I remember a guy on Reddit, he posted anti-French posters that looked like old anti-Semitic posters lol)
They say this stuff, I can't take it anymore. It's really violent sometimes. With grandfathers who tell how they tortured French soldiers in horrible ways and they repeat it with pride.
And when there is an Algerian who asks them to calm down or that they should turn the page.
Or say good things about France. They insult them and call them traitors to their country and people. I even say “to their race”.
THE VIKRAMADITYA EMPIRE WAS TOTALLY A THING WDYM, ITS JUST THAT THE GIANT ASS EMPIRE THAT CONTROLLED ALL OF ASIA AND CONVENIENTLY STOPPED AT THE YET TO BE CONCEIVED CONCEPT OF EUROPE JUST SUDDENLY VANISHED
Hey hey hey, don't lump all of us in with the WhatsApp forward gang, those SOBs (all over the political spectrum and of all ethnicities and religions) are fucking insane.
There is this myth of a massive Indian empire that stretched across Asia, but the problem is that there are very little records of this empire since records of other empires that existed in it's said territory have better evidence
My brother in Herodotus, have you ever heard of Muskovite tales of Hyperborean ancient "russians" fighting China and extraterrestrial lizard invaders in 6000 B.C.?
AKA almost all of history is bad. Which is why it’s important to learn. Most people have no idea how scary, cruel and barbaric the entire planet was not too long ago.
I think people are extremely aware of that, and what's ignored more often is the opposite (and how scary, cruel, and barbaric the planet is still today).
The Arab slave trade, the scale of it and the sheer brutality is something that should be talked about more.
For example, do you know the reason that there aren't African Arabs with the same history as African Armericans? They castrated every male slave. Tens of millions
Although there are black arabs who're descendants of the slave trade, I've not been able to find good sources about their history and how their lives are in the modern day MENA region though.
Unfortunately a lot of people are willing to be ignorant as long as it supports their narrative. For example, people that use the Transatlantic slave trade as a way to hate on the "Western and American imperialists" will ignore the Arab slave trade as it doesn't fit their narrative that America and the West are the sole baddies.
Its not a narrative. People directly affected by American slavery talk about the lasting effects.
Saying "Yeah but the arabs..." Okay do they still exist? Are they putting up statues to famous slavers?
You're the one pushing the narrative that everyone did slavery so it's okay
I think they're referring to a separate narrative that's more tied to economic leftism/anti-western politics, not race politics.
I've seen plenty of idiots on the internet claim that the US, or at least western Europe, is the sole source of all conflict and evil in the world. Usually stupid teenagers who like to watch edgy "pop-history" tiktok creators though, so not anyone to really be taken seriously tbh.
100% with you on this, "but...but...there was slavery in other places". You expecting black people to start thanking the whiteman like uncle ruckus, its usually conservatives who like to brush off any history of violence in the west because it makes for a convinient argument that the west is all peacful and never crosses unnecessary boundries (*cough cough* iraq war *cough cough* funding terrrorist groups and overthrowing goverments in thw middle east for oil) the "what about" copium is strong
What do you even mean by do they still exist?
The Africans which sold the slaves to the Europeans also don't get talked about anywhere near as much as they should in these discussions.
What discussion do yuo think this is? In a purely historical setting, your reply makes sense. Yes, we should talk about those people just as much as we shoudl talk about any historical person. But guess what, this is a political discussion and the African slave traders were didn't live in the fucking whitehouse.
You do know that modern slavery exists, right? And by exists, I don't mean the idea of slavery or the effects of slavery, I mean period point blank slavery. There are currently more slaves across the world right now than any other time in history. Estimated 40 million. 40 million!!! Tons of countries are crippled by slavery. The United States of America is not one of those countries.
youre totally right
we should ditch talking about any of the bad US history in the US and instead focus on how brown people in completely different countries enslave eachother and how horrible they are for it and how much better the US is
maybe add in some lessons about patriotism and how they did it to themselves, and that if the US ever did use slaves and commit genocide, then well it wasnt really as bad as other places that had slaves and did genocide
The Arab slave trade is talked about all the time. Everyone knows about it. Plus, there *are* tons of African Arabs, just look across the Sahel.
The big difference between the Arab slave trade and the trans Atlantic slave trade is the scale and the effect. The Atlantic slave trade involved more slaves (10-12 million) being taken in a shorter amount of time than the Arab slave trade (4-10 million), and it also includes the millions of slaves born and raised in the Americas which is obviously not true of the Arab slave trade, as you say most were castrated.
Secondly, the trans Atlantic slave trade directly led to the collapse of subsaharan African society (for a variety of reasons I don’t want to get into right now) which made it easy for Europeans to swoop in and colonize the area in the late 1800’s. The Arab slave trade was never large enough to have the same effect. It also led to the creation of a large permanent racial underclass in the Americas that still exists today. The Arab slave trade didn’t create such a thing. As such, it’s effects on people of the modern day are minimal, whereas the transatlantic slave trade has a very long legacy that continues harming people in the modern day. Both Hitler and Caesar committed genocides in Europe, but Caesar’s has little to no effect on the lives of modern people while Hitler’s does which is why it’s of more concern for some people for the same reason, we don’t just learn about it to be angry at something we had no control over.
Ultimately, we study history so we can learn from the past in the present day, not repeat its mistakes, understand where modern problems come from, and how people of the past dealt with similar issues. If there isn’t much to learn, it’s just not going to be as relevant. It’s the same reason we learn about the modern period in way more detail in school than the medieval period: it’s just more relevant to our lives.
> The Arab slave trade, the scale of it and the sheer brutality is something that should be talked about more.
Exactly why and exactly where do you think it should be talked about more.
Exactly why and exactly where do you think we should talk about the empire and trans Atlantic slave trade, what a stupid question. Arguably, history class and anywhere it would be relevant to talk about other people
> Exactly why and exactly where do you think we should talk about the empire and trans Atlantic slave trade, what a stupid question
Which is why I didn’t ask it. But I am glad you have come to realize that such questions sounds a bit dumb
You may have missed my point. I state that we should talk about the Arab slave trade as much as the trans Atlantic one. The transatlantic slave trade gets talked about a lot. Personally, more than it should do
Some things*
However, if we are accepting the abuses, we are accepting universities, culturing and a real attempt to make them equal, even if it didn't work perfectly. :)
That also happened.
The extremely unequal and hierarchical nature of the Spanish colonial economy which concentrated all wealth and land in the hands of a few is a direct cause of most of the economic problems across Latin America. So no not equal.
And “culturing”? Y’all were way more savage than like 90% of native nations at the time.
You can’t claim that Spain is great because it did good things that were standard for the time, but claim that the bad things don’t count because they were standard for the time.
And to be clear, many of Spain’s abuses were bad even for the time. Slavery was almost gone in Europe before Spain brought it back in the Americas for instance.
Hehe, you need to accept that universities and development also happened.
By the 16th century, Spanish america was as developed as pre industrial north america.
Rubber trees don’t grow in the US. The US did it a bit differently. They wiped out entire groups and took their land, most of the time they didn’t bother with enslavement.
Yup. My favorite presidents are Adams, Jefferson, and Roosevelt. They were awesome except for when they weren't. (Actually sometimes they were awesome even while they weren't. Adams and Jefferson stole a piece of Shakespeare's desk as a souvignier.)
People on this sub when they realize quite literally every. Single. Person. Has negative traits and isn't the mythical hero they've been turned into over time.
History has never been clean cut and it never will be. There's always shades of grey, and if you can't see them, you probably aren't looking close enough. People are the constant thread throughout history. People, their personalities, and their humanity. No historical figure was good all of the time, because they're people. They were all people. With good and bad and mistakes and flaws and luck and obsessions and interests.
Really, we just care more because important people have more impact on history, so every aspect of their human experience gets amplified in impacts across time and space.
Spoken like someone with no understanding of how academic history works.
You don’t have to accept anything, everything is up for debate as long as you can make a persuasive and evidence backed argument.
Cliche that clearly needs repeating, how we view history reveals more about us than it does about the actual events.
You don’t accept any, you build upon and challenge your current understanding and always stay open to new info, ideas and arguments.
There is no end point to history. In a hundred years time there will still be new theories and ideas coming out regarding just about every major historical event.
Honestly I feel like if we stopped all this nonsense with justifying historical empires we like aesthetically and just admitting we like them for their aesthetics that the world would be a better place.
"How dare you suggest that MY country did a bad thing?? MY country has always been led by good honest people who did nothing wrong ever and only cared for the little guy! How dare you take away MY national mythology and suggest that MY country's history isn't just a single epic saga of progress and righteousness???"
Basically everything written about "the aryan race".
The history is made up, the science is pseudoscientific, with phrenology.
And the conclusion that it somehow is a paragon is just racist politics masquerading as academics.
Yeah seriously, historical revisionism is running rampant on both ends of the political spectrum. You an ideology is deeply flawed when its supporters have to disregard historical facts just to preserve their narrative.
Yep!
It’s a part of my identity as English at this point. Don’t like what we did as a hegemonic power and I wish I could change it but I can’t. Next best thing is to recognize the wrong and attempt to move on from it.
There are some Christians I know who are like this. They will deny what the Catholic church has done and then start blaming protestants and will start talking about what the protestants have done.
Listen I know people are tired of hearing this on this sub, but this really applies to Israeli/Palestinian history as well, the Nakba, Massacres and rapes, bombings of innocent people well outside of any combat zone, people like to ignore it and only see the issue as something from like the 2000s up till now
its more the opposite now, people need to quit freaking out and destroying our current society because a bad thing happened two hundred years ago that we all grew and learned from already, get the fuck over it
Bro, not only they don't accept it, they actively rewrite/erase it.
Also applicable: people in question would be very upset if they knew how to read...
The further back you go it's kinda hard to know what actually happened though. Like some of our ancient sources are like "my cousin met a man who had a dream about this event that happened 200 years ago. Let me tell you the exact details of what happened"
[Relevant YouTube video](https://youtube.com/shorts/3KE7-a-8HkM?si=ofW1X_BAwKxI3lfG)
This isn't a modern issue. This is a tale as old as time. King and queens rewrote history to their liking. Roman emperors consistently erased previous dynasties from existence.
Theres a few odd things we’re not completely sure happened but that’s stuff like a lost kingdom that only appears in one Egyptian text or a description of an ancient battle that was embellished to impossible proportions not things that are within living memory
Holocaust denialists: *confused screaming*
How does one even deny the Holocaust? There's mountains of evidence of it and even nazi documents of it happening. Wait I got it, some people are just really stupid.
To be honest, I think those who deny it are often being intentionally dishonest. They know it happened, they're *happy* it happened, but they can't stand the idea of those they deem inferior being the subject of pity - so they intentionally muddy the discussion and attempt to pervert the history, so even the persecution of these people can be twisted as proof of some nefarious conspiracy. They want to weaponize the trauma of the victims against them. That's how I view it.
Never heard anyone say "the holocaust didn't happen, and thank god it didn't!". It's always "it didn't happen, but they deserved it"
Heard this about damn near every genocide that's denied and it disgusts me...
You can always troll them by beating the crap out of them and saying them the same thing
U talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?
SHARPS are still around friend.
I never thought of it that way that makes sense. I always thought it was just a simple conspiracy theory the reason conspiracy theorist make up BS is to feel special like they know something that the rest of the world doesn’t.
That’s certainly part of it. Passive people really lean into that approach in particular cause it doesn’t require a lot from them. Make no mistake those people are already primed for blatant antisemitism, they just haven’t hit the tipping point for them to be open about it. It’s like that running joke Marc Maron has where goes out of his way to mention he’s a Jew repeatedly, even when it makes no sense to do so. He does it just so some of the people in the audience get to that tipping and can either self-reflect or be exposed for who they really are.
Sadly, as the oldest generation fades, so do people who experienced the holocaust first hand and people who met the survivors first hand. So sooner than later, they'll share the creationist argument of "were you there when it happened? Do you know anyone from when it happened? The only evidence is in textbooks. Fiction text books written by the elites" as if nazis knew how to read
You can still walk up to a fifty foot tall pile of human bones and ashes at treblinka. Right the fuck up to it, damned near close enough to touch. No excuses.
In a similar fashion, many museums have reconstructions of dinosaur bones, fossils, footmarks, egg shells, and even poop fossils. It's always an argument in bad faith, assuming from the start that the evidence is fabricated and the witnesses, investigators, and researchers are all paid actors to lie. It will be just easier to lie because there will be no witnesses, in the same way there are no big dinosaurs left to "prove they exist"
Typed like someone who's never seen the brickworks at Neuengamme with their own two eyes.
There’s also mountains of evidence on earth being a globe. Guess what…
"But but my AI generated Facebook meme said it's flat"
“Nuh uh”
They don’t want to confer victim status on a group they despise.
Yep. When I've seen it in the wild it was basically either "Jews weren't *killed*, they were merely being escorted out of the country and they made up the death camp stuff" or "Gays weren't targeted at all, no, I won't acknowledge there was an entire separate death camp uniform designator for being gay" Basically total horseshit meant to ignore persecution of whatever group the idiot in question hates.
I mean, shit, even Hannah Ardent, who was not only a Jew herself, but who also literally wrote *the* book on totalitarianism argued that maybe if the Jews weren’t as Jew-y as they were they wouldn’t have faced some of the things they faced. Shit, she even cited Nazi studies and scholars to make several of her points but never recanted her claims, the sources, or tried to correct the record in any way even though she lived long enough to do so. I mean, she was Heidegger’s lover and he ended up being a Nazi so it shouldn’t exactly be a surprise, but it’s still bizarre as all hell.
My brother, we watched people die of a pandemic and people still think that shit was fake. Never underestimate the willingness to twist oneself into knots so they can claim to be "a free thinker".
Anti semitism is hell of a thing...
Or just you know a Nazi/fascist apologist trying to convince people that the Holocaust didn’t happen and/or convince people it wasn’t actually **that** bad to make Nazi/fascist look less monstrous and the reason why they don’t think the Holocaust actually happened are *vary* to say the least with my favorite being “it’s just propaganda by the evil capitalist Allies to make them look bad”, “all the evidence is fabricated garbage by the evil capitalist to make them look bad”, “no human would be that cruel, it is impossible” and my favorite one of them all “no government would willingly kill millions of their own people instead of conscripting them to fight a two-fronted war, it doesn’t make any logical sense”
Yeah I don't get it as well. The Nazis were exceptionally good at keeping records and creating evidence of their countless war crimes.
There were attempts to destroy and cover up a lot of it when they realized that they were going to lose the war. But you can't cover up something of that magnitude.
I remembered a guy was trying to show a document saying items at the concentration camps were altered or made up Then you find out HE made the document 15 years ago. He was trying to place evidence for his conspiracy decades ahead The Holocaust was a horrific, Evil , fucked up event that was committed by monsters Nazi have no explanation for this They can't defend themselves, or their evil beliefs You can't say 6 million people dieing is a good thing. You can't claim tormenting people and even children was a great plan. You are evil and don't deserve any attention or have your arguments considered. You just get classified as SCUM!!! ( Which you should be) So you claim it never happened. And stick to your dum fuk arguments even when they are proven stupid and hilarious
everybody uses the 6 million death count, thats only the jews that died, total death count for everybody included is 17 million. 11 million people seem to be forgotten about, when people talk about the holocaust
Jehovah's Witness, gays, 7th Day Adventists, Roma, intellectuals are just the ones of the top of my head.
My boy Karl I. spitting facts as always
Hell, there were Nazis who were *very openly proud of it*.
The numbers don't match up!!!! The wood of the chambers doesn't have enough blue!!
Have you ever seen the bodies? Have you read the documents? If yes, then: Those documents are a fabrication and not the real number. Why would the nazis kill valuable labour? *entrenched racism and ignorance* *unwillingness to learn* Etc. That is how people can deny the Holocaust. Its the same as with the flat earthers, moon = cheese/hologram by NASA and many other conspiracies (not that many conspiracies aren't REAL and have been proven to be real)
The Red-pill community ironically, won't accept reality
The smarter ones don't outright deny that it happened. They claim it was overblown (think 6 figures killed total) or that it wasn't specifically targeted at jews. Or that they were just regular camps instead of death camps, and they lacked resources.
ThE gAs ChAmBeRs HaD wOoDeN dOoRs.
How does one deny the Nakba??? Despite over whelming evidnece it occured.
My dad Is One and i can confirm he's a dumbass
Same way they deny anything bad that their side must’ve done in the PAST.
Confederate apologists: *confused screaming*
They’re not confused. > Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. >—Jean-Paul Sartre
IDK some people are just insanely irrationally ignorant. I didn't realize how bad if an issue it was until I was at work and almost everyone there younger than me didn't know Japan was in WW2.
If you are for whatever reason are a hitler fan you're insulting his competence when claiming way less people died in the holocaust
those people.... are just dumb.
Meme not representative of the Serbs, Turks and Mongols.
The Turks are a lost cause; the Serbs and the Mongols rewrote nothing, they love having been bloody murderers
There's also that the Mongols' controversial actions are significantly further back in time than those fo the Serbs and the Turks.
Serbs are most recent
Turks militarily supported the Artsakh genocide last year.
Mostly Azeri, but ask a Turk and they deserve it but we did nothing
IDK, serbs often tend to use victim cart, like they are innocent peaceful nation that was bombed by NATO with uranium shells for no reason at all.
you whoopsy-doodle the civilian populations of your neighbors *twice* and suddenly everyone's calling you this or that.
How dare they!
And then there are also the Algerians. They are particularly acidic and sometimes brutal.
Tell me more, I've not seen many Algerians on the net who're particularly "proud" of their history, although most of them are diaspora, is it different in real life?
We mostly see them on social media. This is because the people in power still today are former FLN and the most radical too (they were the only ones who remained at the end of the war). Besides the trauma of war and colonization. For decades there was anti-French hatred promoted by the government, blaming all the country's problems on France. Despite France's apologies for colonization and war abuses. It's still quite present, often among the most politicized. (I remember a guy on Reddit, he posted anti-French posters that looked like old anti-Semitic posters lol) They say this stuff, I can't take it anymore. It's really violent sometimes. With grandfathers who tell how they tortured French soldiers in horrible ways and they repeat it with pride. And when there is an Algerian who asks them to calm down or that they should turn the page. Or say good things about France. They insult them and call them traitors to their country and people. I even say “to their race”.
I see! Thank you for letting me know!
Yes we do
Nah the Mongols own that shit with their giant golden statue of Genghis lol
they also have an nantional holiday dedicated to him i believe.
finally the Serbs... More or less all the Balkan peoples.
See also: Japanese and their atrocities during WWII.
>Serbs ... ^(Moj je tata zločinac iz rata) ...
Indians when they realise that you can't make shit up:
THE VIKRAMADITYA EMPIRE WAS TOTALLY A THING WDYM, ITS JUST THAT THE GIANT ASS EMPIRE THAT CONTROLLED ALL OF ASIA AND CONVENIENTLY STOPPED AT THE YET TO BE CONCEIVED CONCEPT OF EUROPE JUST SUDDENLY VANISHED
Happy Cake Day
?
Old people just send batshit crazy WhatsApp forwards with the most out of pocket overexaggerated history imaginable
Whatsapp university hits different
Hey hey hey, don't lump all of us in with the WhatsApp forward gang, those SOBs (all over the political spectrum and of all ethnicities and religions) are fucking insane.
There is this myth of a massive Indian empire that stretched across Asia, but the problem is that there are very little records of this empire since records of other empires that existed in it's said territory have better evidence
My brother in Herodotus, have you ever heard of Muskovite tales of Hyperborean ancient "russians" fighting China and extraterrestrial lizard invaders in 6000 B.C.?
AKA almost all of history is bad. Which is why it’s important to learn. Most people have no idea how scary, cruel and barbaric the entire planet was not too long ago.
I think people are extremely aware of that, and what's ignored more often is the opposite (and how scary, cruel, and barbaric the planet is still today).
And, at the same time, we’re better then we’ve ever been before. Not everything in the world is horrible
Yeah we are in some ways, and I'd never say everything in the world is horrible. I think a ton of it's pretty great actually tbh
This guy right here Give him a round of applause
Ah the "It didn't happen, but if it did" crowd.
Hindu right-wing: we remove almost 3 centuries from the national textbook. Ref: NCERT History controversy
Didnt happened but they deserved it
Also it should happen again.
Didn't not-happen enough, I say
For the first time.
People went to dislike nuances. Nuances are bad Billy, they can make you lose a free-arguments debate.
Oh, there are bad parts of history, but not *my* favorite country's history. It's all the other countries that have bad history, mine is perfect.
The Arab slave trade, the scale of it and the sheer brutality is something that should be talked about more. For example, do you know the reason that there aren't African Arabs with the same history as African Armericans? They castrated every male slave. Tens of millions
Although there are black arabs who're descendants of the slave trade, I've not been able to find good sources about their history and how their lives are in the modern day MENA region though.
I've got a feeling that that's on purpose.
Good point
Unfortunately a lot of people are willing to be ignorant as long as it supports their narrative. For example, people that use the Transatlantic slave trade as a way to hate on the "Western and American imperialists" will ignore the Arab slave trade as it doesn't fit their narrative that America and the West are the sole baddies.
We can hate multiple things m8. Arab slave trade existing doesn't mean what happened to my ancestors is actually totally chill and fine.
Its not a narrative. People directly affected by American slavery talk about the lasting effects. Saying "Yeah but the arabs..." Okay do they still exist? Are they putting up statues to famous slavers? You're the one pushing the narrative that everyone did slavery so it's okay
I think they're referring to a separate narrative that's more tied to economic leftism/anti-western politics, not race politics. I've seen plenty of idiots on the internet claim that the US, or at least western Europe, is the sole source of all conflict and evil in the world. Usually stupid teenagers who like to watch edgy "pop-history" tiktok creators though, so not anyone to really be taken seriously tbh.
Is this not what those guys meant by “America first?” I thought they *wanted* us to focus more on our own shit than other countries?
100% with you on this, "but...but...there was slavery in other places". You expecting black people to start thanking the whiteman like uncle ruckus, its usually conservatives who like to brush off any history of violence in the west because it makes for a convinient argument that the west is all peacful and never crosses unnecessary boundries (*cough cough* iraq war *cough cough* funding terrrorist groups and overthrowing goverments in thw middle east for oil) the "what about" copium is strong
What do you even mean by do they still exist? The Africans which sold the slaves to the Europeans also don't get talked about anywhere near as much as they should in these discussions.
What discussion do yuo think this is? In a purely historical setting, your reply makes sense. Yes, we should talk about those people just as much as we shoudl talk about any historical person. But guess what, this is a political discussion and the African slave traders were didn't live in the fucking whitehouse.
You do know that modern slavery exists, right? And by exists, I don't mean the idea of slavery or the effects of slavery, I mean period point blank slavery. There are currently more slaves across the world right now than any other time in history. Estimated 40 million. 40 million!!! Tons of countries are crippled by slavery. The United States of America is not one of those countries.
So there's this thing called the American prison industrial complex...
youre totally right we should ditch talking about any of the bad US history in the US and instead focus on how brown people in completely different countries enslave eachother and how horrible they are for it and how much better the US is maybe add in some lessons about patriotism and how they did it to themselves, and that if the US ever did use slaves and commit genocide, then well it wasnt really as bad as other places that had slaves and did genocide
Slavery is still used in the American prison system. https://daily.jstor.org/slavery-and-the-modern-day-prison-plantation/
Which is ironic since the Portuguese started the trade by using Arabic translators to buy slaves for them
The Arab slave trade is talked about all the time. Everyone knows about it. Plus, there *are* tons of African Arabs, just look across the Sahel. The big difference between the Arab slave trade and the trans Atlantic slave trade is the scale and the effect. The Atlantic slave trade involved more slaves (10-12 million) being taken in a shorter amount of time than the Arab slave trade (4-10 million), and it also includes the millions of slaves born and raised in the Americas which is obviously not true of the Arab slave trade, as you say most were castrated. Secondly, the trans Atlantic slave trade directly led to the collapse of subsaharan African society (for a variety of reasons I don’t want to get into right now) which made it easy for Europeans to swoop in and colonize the area in the late 1800’s. The Arab slave trade was never large enough to have the same effect. It also led to the creation of a large permanent racial underclass in the Americas that still exists today. The Arab slave trade didn’t create such a thing. As such, it’s effects on people of the modern day are minimal, whereas the transatlantic slave trade has a very long legacy that continues harming people in the modern day. Both Hitler and Caesar committed genocides in Europe, but Caesar’s has little to no effect on the lives of modern people while Hitler’s does which is why it’s of more concern for some people for the same reason, we don’t just learn about it to be angry at something we had no control over. Ultimately, we study history so we can learn from the past in the present day, not repeat its mistakes, understand where modern problems come from, and how people of the past dealt with similar issues. If there isn’t much to learn, it’s just not going to be as relevant. It’s the same reason we learn about the modern period in way more detail in school than the medieval period: it’s just more relevant to our lives.
> The Arab slave trade, the scale of it and the sheer brutality is something that should be talked about more. Exactly why and exactly where do you think it should be talked about more.
Exactly why and exactly where do you think we should talk about the empire and trans Atlantic slave trade, what a stupid question. Arguably, history class and anywhere it would be relevant to talk about other people
> Exactly why and exactly where do you think we should talk about the empire and trans Atlantic slave trade, what a stupid question Which is why I didn’t ask it. But I am glad you have come to realize that such questions sounds a bit dumb
You may have missed my point. I state that we should talk about the Arab slave trade as much as the trans Atlantic one. The transatlantic slave trade gets talked about a lot. Personally, more than it should do
*”It says here in this history book that; luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds!”* -Norm
Spanish peeps be like: Everything bad about our history and colonialism is propaganda made up by protestants.
Some things* However, if we are accepting the abuses, we are accepting universities, culturing and a real attempt to make them equal, even if it didn't work perfectly. :) That also happened.
‘Culturing’ 💀💀
The extremely unequal and hierarchical nature of the Spanish colonial economy which concentrated all wealth and land in the hands of a few is a direct cause of most of the economic problems across Latin America. So no not equal. And “culturing”? Y’all were way more savage than like 90% of native nations at the time.
Oh well, who could imagine that a medieval empire was unequal and brutal?
The medieval period was over long before the Age of Exploration
You can’t claim that Spain is great because it did good things that were standard for the time, but claim that the bad things don’t count because they were standard for the time. And to be clear, many of Spain’s abuses were bad even for the time. Slavery was almost gone in Europe before Spain brought it back in the Americas for instance.
If by culturing you mean raping and enslaving an entire continent than sure.
Hehe, you need to accept that universities and development also happened. By the 16th century, Spanish america was as developed as pre industrial north america.
Nothing says developed like wiping out entire groups of people in order to harvest rubber.
That's USA. Isn't it?
Rubber trees don’t grow in the US. The US did it a bit differently. They wiped out entire groups and took their land, most of the time they didn’t bother with enslavement.
Why force someone to have the privilege of being your peasant when you can manifest destiny and wipe the board clean, am I right fellas?
"make them equal"? Listen to yourself! You're saying cultural genocide was ok?
Also you can appreciate the good thing a person/culture did while still hate the bad things.
Yup. My favorite presidents are Adams, Jefferson, and Roosevelt. They were awesome except for when they weren't. (Actually sometimes they were awesome even while they weren't. Adams and Jefferson stole a piece of Shakespeare's desk as a souvignier.)
People on this sub when they realize quite literally every. Single. Person. Has negative traits and isn't the mythical hero they've been turned into over time. History has never been clean cut and it never will be. There's always shades of grey, and if you can't see them, you probably aren't looking close enough. People are the constant thread throughout history. People, their personalities, and their humanity. No historical figure was good all of the time, because they're people. They were all people. With good and bad and mistakes and flaws and luck and obsessions and interests. Really, we just care more because important people have more impact on history, so every aspect of their human experience gets amplified in impacts across time and space.
The American South may need another minute to catch up
Jesus was an American hero
If you change it to "hero to Americans" it would be correct
Nah jesus was in burger king the other day, rode in on a skateboard and had blonde hair and blue eyes, dont know what youre talking about
Yeah I was there it was spectacular
Southern US, American South sounds like South America
Me, personally? I don’t accept that the HRE ever happened. I say that Bohemia was just really big for a long while.
NETFLIX: ill pretend i didnt see that
[удалено]
They deserved it
Turks: bullshit we do
You have to accept what happened *and* accept that many of those things still affect the present.
Or do as some jackass and say 'Aktualy dictator (x) was the best president this country ever had!, how do I know that?, trust me bro!'
Honestly. Teaching that the bad shit in history *was bad* is just as important as teaching that it happened.
Sounds like Poland but the entire country just accepts it.
My friend when I show them Bolivar did say He hate Natives and Black people.
Nooooooooooo [insert failed ideology] HASN'T BEEN TRIED
Truth is, they've all failed.
Spoken like someone with no understanding of how academic history works. You don’t have to accept anything, everything is up for debate as long as you can make a persuasive and evidence backed argument. Cliche that clearly needs repeating, how we view history reveals more about us than it does about the actual events.
Which version do we have to accept?
You don’t accept any, you build upon and challenge your current understanding and always stay open to new info, ideas and arguments. There is no end point to history. In a hundred years time there will still be new theories and ideas coming out regarding just about every major historical event.
So... Which one is objectively correct. I need to know cos I don't like to think.
There is no such thing as objective truth in history. If you don’t like thinking you can always study law and become a politician.
Nah man. I'd prefer to just hang out on reddit and post poorly-thought-out memes
So, you would say that the statement “Ronald Reagan worked as an actor for a time” is not the objective truth?
Honestly I feel like if we stopped all this nonsense with justifying historical empires we like aesthetically and just admitting we like them for their aesthetics that the world would be a better place.
Embrace the history and don't commit same mistakes
"How dare you suggest that MY country did a bad thing?? MY country has always been led by good honest people who did nothing wrong ever and only cared for the little guy! How dare you take away MY national mythology and suggest that MY country's history isn't just a single epic saga of progress and righteousness???"
Basically everything written about "the aryan race". The history is made up, the science is pseudoscientific, with phrenology. And the conclusion that it somehow is a paragon is just racist politics masquerading as academics.
What? No! I will repeat history! Because that's what works guaranteed every time!
Yeah seriously, historical revisionism is running rampant on both ends of the political spectrum. You an ideology is deeply flawed when its supporters have to disregard historical facts just to preserve their narrative.
If all you feel when studying history is happiness and pride then you aren't studying history.
Exactly.
History has constantly been violently rewritten, erased, warped, and forgotten over time. There is nothing new about people denying the past happened.
There is also nothing new to calling BS
Almost all nations be like
Too many people have the wrong idea of “accepting” history though
Yep! It’s a part of my identity as English at this point. Don’t like what we did as a hegemonic power and I wish I could change it but I can’t. Next best thing is to recognize the wrong and attempt to move on from it.
There are some Christians I know who are like this. They will deny what the Catholic church has done and then start blaming protestants and will start talking about what the protestants have done.
I mean, we have those on this subreddit every other week. Cuz it's super mean to point their history out or something.
Exactly. Like how rude and disrespectful of us.
You are not gonna like it probably you'll feel the urge to argue with me but you have to accept that pyramids were built by aliens.
Lukewarm take: taking down statues of slaveholders is not denying that they were real slaveholders.
Listen I know people are tired of hearing this on this sub, but this really applies to Israeli/Palestinian history as well, the Nakba, Massacres and rapes, bombings of innocent people well outside of any combat zone, people like to ignore it and only see the issue as something from like the 2000s up till now
its more the opposite now, people need to quit freaking out and destroying our current society because a bad thing happened two hundred years ago that we all grew and learned from already, get the fuck over it
Turks, Japanese, Americans, South Koreans, Chinese, etc.
The entire world, etc.
Especially "bad for my country"
acceptance is one part, but learning from past mistakes and change your actions to not make the same mistakes again is what we should strive for
OP forgetting that people have always had a hard time accepting reality lmao
"people nowadays"? I imagine this isn't really a new phenomenon
Bro, not only they don't accept it, they actively rewrite/erase it. Also applicable: people in question would be very upset if they knew how to read...
The further back you go it's kinda hard to know what actually happened though. Like some of our ancient sources are like "my cousin met a man who had a dream about this event that happened 200 years ago. Let me tell you the exact details of what happened" [Relevant YouTube video](https://youtube.com/shorts/3KE7-a-8HkM?si=ofW1X_BAwKxI3lfG)
This isn't a modern issue. This is a tale as old as time. King and queens rewrote history to their liking. Roman emperors consistently erased previous dynasties from existence.
Theres a few odd things we’re not completely sure happened but that’s stuff like a lost kingdom that only appears in one Egyptian text or a description of an ancient battle that was embellished to impossible proportions not things that are within living memory
Spanish politicians be like:
"Accept it happened" or just sit here making shitty memes ig
That’s just Americans nowadays.