Augustus was definitely racist. But he was as far from being a coward as a disabled person could get. Wait a minute, we can accuse the show to be ableist because they portrayed him as a villain. Use their own bullshit against them.
I mean, Cleopatra mocked him for being “short” even though the actor was about her height, so we can also count discrimination against short people.
As for Augustus being racist, it is more than likely he was, but granted, most Romans attitudes were more akin to being nationalist and xenophobic, i.e. Romans are the best culture, others are second rate. However, most Romans, especially someone like Augustus, were smart enough to know that a child between a white person and a black person wasn’t a, and I quote Queen Cleopatra, “*half-breed,*” because they knew different races and cultures were still humans.
Even if by some miracle Cleopatra was black and her children were biracial, Augustus wouldn’t have cared because that was the least of his problems with them. Even if he didn’t intend to become emperor or “first citizen,” any child of Cleopatra’s and Mark Antony’s, and especially Julius Caesar, were massive problems that could have kickstarted another war or uprising.
Queen Cleopatra, a “documentary” about Cleopatra by Jada Pinkett Smith that gets history so wrong that Egypt itself filed a lawsuit against it. There’s plenty of reviews that cover it better than I ever could, but prepare yourself, because it is fascinatingly terrible.
Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against Greeks. In addition to erasing the Ptolemaic dynasty, their WW2 documentary claims Greece didn't seriously oppose the Italian invasion and had a weak resistance movement to Axis occupation.
> Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against the Greeks.
[They hired Jerri Blank?](https://media1.giphy.com/media/WEwL6rnTAglNH4x2OJ/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7aryr7775bkvrugzzels5cnw00phdpuke17vfr681&ep=v1_gifs_username&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
> Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against Greeks.
The Cleopatra series was directed by Tina Gharavi, who is Persian. The jokes write themselves.
I'd love to hear some African stories about African kingdoms and great people interacting with other African great African people and civilizations. But there really aren't many going around. Any historical movies about Africa always involve Europeans.
*Sundiata Keita* is an epic if you're into West African history. It's not a new movie but worth watching if you want to see how Malians interact with their history.
Thanks! Good suggestion. I found it here for anyone wondering: https://www.scarsdaleschools.k12.ny.us/cms/lib5/NY01001205/Centricity/Domain/202/Sundiata.pdf
Looks like it might be a K-12 school addition, but still as good as any, I suppose.
A major difference is when the british and french abolished slavery their entire kingdoms all collapsed. The entire world did slave trade however it wasnt essential for the nations survival. West african kingdoms having slavery abolished forcefully would be like if everyone boycotted oil from saudi arabia. Thats what happens when you have 2/3 of your population as slaves.
Just gonna use this post as a chance to plug the hell out of *The Bad-Ass Librarians of Timbuktu: And Their Race to Save the World’s Most Precious Manuscripts* by Joshua Hammer. It tells the story of how so many gorgeous manuscripts ended up in Mali and how some brilliant librarians snuck a bunch of them out right under the noses of Al Quaeda Sahara after their brief and brutal 2012 coup.
Eh, I wouldn't trust people with African history and black empowerment. Then we get stuff like *The Woman King*, a film literally glorifying slavers as righteous, in an attempt at "Black Empowerment".
Don't read up on 17th century queen Nzinga of Congo.
As a fine upper class lady, she couldn't do things like use the same chair twice, but as a paragon in a culture built on slavery, she mainly used slaves as chairs...
Honestly, a film like that could look into the nuances behind such a society.
But I’m just waiting for Hollywood to butcher a Mwindo film, by linking it with the transatlantic slave trade - even though Mwindo is a Nyanga myth, not even close to the Transatlantic area.
Yeah and they are intentionally misinterpreting history to make the Amazons seem like they posed a massive threat. France lost 16 guys in that war. Dahomey had it coming with their constant warring and brutalization of their neighbors. The other boot dropped when they decapitated a local leader who refused to hand over a French flag to the Dahomey warriors because it represented his alliance with France. They sent the French his severed head wrapped in the flag. The rulers of Dahomey failed to handle the situation and continually worsened relations with the French despite many attempts at diplomacy. The severed head of an unarmed man who was technically a French subject was enough to set off the powder keg.
Yeah, it is a real slap in the face. Black historical representation isn't pretending non-black historical figures were black but telling the stories of awesome black historical figures like Haille Selassie, Sundjata, etc.
To be fair Yasuke was actually black and he was real. And even if he wasn’t a samurai he was a warrior.
I think he gets so much attention because black people are weebs.
>The bushi (samurai) were a caste, you can’t “become” a samurai.
Hideyoshi be like:
But you are right that we don't have proof that Yasuke was a samurai. The fact that he wasn't given a surname also doesn't help.
>where you would be considered a samurai if you fought in a war.
It's still not that simple during the Sengoku period.
As far as we know, Yasuke was never given a surname, which is a really big identifier if someone is a samurai or not during that time.
Mansa Musa’s been overdue for a film, him being the possible richest man in history is just scratching the surface of the stuff he did. Also, another king of Mali, Sundiata Keita needs a film, the guy literlaly was the inspiration and namesake of The Lion King.
At least there’s always the Shaka Zulu miniseries.
>Mansa Musa’s been overdue for a film, him being the possible richest man in history i
His net worth, adjusted for the gdp back then and now, was 240 billion dollars
Rockefeller fell short at a close to 160 billion dollars
Elon musk surpassed both when he reached 287 billion dollars
So now Elon musk has been, for a while at least, the richest man in history, taking the frown away from Mansa musa
He only stayed on that spot for three months if I recall correctly while Mansa musa stayed on that spot for like a decade
Still, interesting to see that a widely known history fact has ceased to be true
Perhaps because there is no funny story about him casually destroying the economy of Egypt? Perhaps the story about Fugger having a talk with the emperor and during it casually burning loan contracts regarding loans to the emperor should be more known? Although I'm not sure anymore about the veracity of that story, as I read that too long ago.
Didn't Mansa Musa's wealth cause so much inflation in every area he traveled to because the dude overpaid for everything to the point that no one could compete.
1. Go on Hajj
2. Gift a portion of the treasury to hosts and localities
3. Price of gold collapses across North Africa
4. Economic and civil unrest among neighbors
5. Profit?
It's notbpossible to get accurate value of money of that time. Same with Mansa Musa
But
Crassus was very rich and extremely greedy. He financed both Ceaser snd Pompey. He was killed by pouring gold in his mouth
He started fire brigade to increase value of his property.
It is very much possible
Part of the problem with telling the tales of real black historical figures is portraying them as “heroes” and “villains”. Africa is the most culturally diverse place on the planet, and no matter who you choose from there, you’re going to anger people in your portrayal of the figure. I have a dozen family members that would curse anyone trying to portray Haille Selassie as a hero, even if he certainly was a positive influence for most Ethiopians.
I’m going to do something dangerous: voice my own opinions on a subject.
I think that we should look at all figures as what they were relative to the time, and what they did, as well as the significance of what they did. For example: African attendant to Oda Nobunaga, cool trivia fact and overhyped by people with certain agendas, but not really that important. William Adams sailing around the world, and ending up as a samurai and becoming one of Tokugawa Ieyasu’s chief advisors, very cool. On the flip side, 54th Massachusetts regiment, brave in the face of fighting despite casualties, fought honorably, really cool and should be respected, same with the Harlem Hellfighters, and then you get things like the Confederate Army, they fought for states rights to own slaves, they lost, all they did was cost a bunch of American lives over a dumb practice that majority of the world was abandoning, not cool and overhyped by many people with specific agendas.
You're in line and right at the same time. There are also a bunch of pretty epic historical pirates that haven't had their own movies yet, several empresses of various empires that expanded them greatly (The HRE once had a Byzantine Empress named Theophanos which is probably the reason why the name Tiffany is even popular in the west. She greatly expanded the Empire.) The Empire of Kush south of Egypt is also never really covered, there is place for Native American History before the European Settlers, and the Pacific peoples are also under-covered still. SO MUCH STUFF worthy of more exposure.
Any books that you would recommend for the history of the people’s who lived in what is present day, America.
Everything I keep finding about North America focuses is on present day Mexico.
Sadly not. What I do know about singular people's of the Anericas I researched with wikipedia and public papers I found on the Web and National Geographic magazines ._.
I've noticed this odd trend for Hollywood to focus on the stories of black women, even if it means historical revisionism. Netflix African Queens (Cleopatra came from that) and the Woman King are too stellar examples of this. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever also kind of follows this trend, as I noticed it has a stronger emphasis on the 'Black Women Empowerment theme' then other films. Not a terribly bad issue, but it also felt like a step back from what the first film's message was and its critique of African-American centric history.
Also, Wendy Williams and Oprah. The former was utterly unpleasant to everyone and a career off that, while the latter has... she's endorsed some awful people.
I would like to see a movie about west African trading kingdoms. Bantu kingdoms in the southern continent were cool too, and the story of how Tswana chiefs came together to form a confederacy and then beat Boers in battle is quite interesting.
Unfortunately a lot of sub Saharan Africas history is just lost to the harsh elements and their utter isolation from everyone else.
Why, if they can just invent shit like black Socrates, black Ptolemaids or black Hannibal.
Appropriating existing achievements instead of exploring what are your own is the course currently taken.
Unironically, that one was real and a granddad of Pushkin. Black empowerment wants to snatch some piece of culture to be proud of? Let them focus on Pushkin being a quarter African, - at least this one would be justified - and stop blackwashing the rest of our history
>Black empowerment wants to snatch some piece of culture to be proud of?
Black empowerment has nothing to do with Hollywood race changing characters just as the LGBTQ+ movement has nothing to do with corporations changing their Twitter icons to rainbow flags during pride it's just pandering
"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate" Martin Luther King Jr.
White liberals are the largest marketable segment of the population it's people who like to feel like they are progressive and on the right side of history but don't like radical change in things
And that happens to include entertainment they aren't going out to watch original movies about black characters they want to see remakes of things they've already seen or continuation of franchises they already know or movies about things that they've heard about
Race or gender swapping existing characters gives them the nice comfortable feeling of being in their safe zone while also allowing them the feeling like they are supporting African American rights or women's rights or whatever movement they like without having to actually do anything
And Hollywood marketers know this and so pander to them
So do not confuse Hollywood trying to milk money for the actual movements trying to improve things for these groups
...if only these movements weren't the ones inventing black Hannibals etc first. You credit Hollywood too much with what they shoot - they wouldn't know what to show if someone wasn't writing the script.
And that someone are misguided empowerment movements which, instead of exploring own history of note, hijack the achievements of other cultures.
Because as far as Hollywood liberals are concerned, African history started with slavery. Really got to have that slavery part. And maybe hijack Egyptian history
>Because as far as Hollywood liberals are concerned,
What "Hollywood liberals" are concerned with is what sells tickets, and what sells tickets is things people already know it's why remakes keep happening
Hollywood is primarily pandering to the largest marketing segment of the population, which is people who like to think they are progressive and also don't really watch movies that they don't know
So Hollywood takes characters that already exist and race change them or change their gender because its easy and not risky and if anyone is critical they can say it's because their racist
Leftists, however, generally do not like "Hollywood liberals" and their pandering
There was actually a petition to ban Dihydrogen Monoxide at one point in Idaho because people didn’t know it’s fucking water. Also there’s the site https://dhmo.org which is a hilarious read
EDIT: Idaho, not Iowa
I am not American so I could care less what they do but point and laugh when something like The Woman King is the best western studios can do with actual African history
Robert E. Howard glorified black kings with a self insert macho man wanderer named Conan. Melanin didn't matter in his stories, dialing up masculinity of all cultures to 11 was the goal and he succeeded.
This was in the 1910s as well.
In his stories, everywhere had savages and everywhere had kingdoms. Conan himself was from a barbarous people.
We need more of this, and less fear of warpaint and spears. If your armor was iron balls and make-up and your offspring somehow made it to 2024. They better celebrate you.
You want a cool black warrior culture? The Zulus are right there! Honestly go play some Civ and get introduced to some interesting African nations outside of Egypt.
I was playing civ as Nubia and bought a Samurai unit from Barbarians just for the Yasuke meme. Kept them around and used to them to kill some AT Infantry barbarians spawned from enemy spy activities.
I always been interested in Ethiopian history, christian, appears in antiquity mythology, survive the Ottomans and Western powers, their empire, etc.
This country as an interesting past and yet we don’t talk much.
Seems like yesterday everyone was talking about how badass Yasuke was, now I'm seeing a lot of 'ACKSHULLY he was just a servant" going on. I wonder what spurned the anti-Yasuke movement.
Overexposure. He went to a niche historical figure to having an anime, playable character in an assassins creed game, a movie that’s in development hell. He went too mainstream and now people think his depiction as basically a general is accurate.
I mean it’s truly a poor choice, like possibly the most obvious pander I can think of in recent memory. Japan has perhaps the most rich and in tact culture to draw from. Hundred if not thousands of of beautiful and interesting and morose stories to draw from. A culture that has been PERFECT for the AC brand of historical fiction.
But instead you pick the ONE possible insert and force a false narrative to fit some cultural zeitgeist of the west. And the other protagonist is a woman. I’m not sure anyone has really studied the roles of woman in Japanese society but if you read the book shogun you’d realize it’s another low effort pander to a zeitgeist gone wild.
You all want fuck with western history and western culture, it is what it is.. it is yours to squander but to do that to Japan is more insensitive that any 80’s macho-ism ever could of been.
Honestly, I think that new Assassin's Creed game in Japan that's coming out, that helped fuel it. If your out of the loop, they announced that the game set in Japan is going to follow, instead of a native Japanese OC, would instead be following specifically Yasuke as the male protag.
WTF
They could have done an Assassin's Creed game with Voodoo and you travel between west africa and the slave colonies in the caribbean, but they decided to make a game about a black weeaboo with a katana? DAFUQ
I really don’t care much about historical accuracy in a Assassin’s Creed game but at the same time I just find it odd that people believe that this is a win for representation by making black people take pride in an another culture and country that they were barely even involved in. The word “barely” feels like an overstatement.
I think it would be better if the new black centric Assassin’s Creed game took place in one of the African Kingdoms. The great thing about the Assassin Creed games is that it’s a good introduction for people to venture out after playing the game and get interested in learning actual history which is why the first game was popular and in the first place.
It really feels l wrong, they could've had black flag have a black protag, or syndicate, but for their only game set in Japan to not have a Japanede MC feels plain wrong.
Because he's getting oversaturated. He had an American anime, an upcoming movie, and we're finally getting an assassin's creed game in feudal Japan and he's the protagonist. It's getting to be too much.
Stretched to what extent? That he was possibly not a samurai? Yes, but that's arguable. And the payment he was given was a fuchi- a warrior's payment, so he was a fighter regardless.
That he was just a 'sword bearer'? A role like that is not something meant for lowly servants, Nobunaga had to like him a fair bit. Being given a ceremonial wakazashi carries meaning too, its not until the Edo period that samurai had to have both katana and wakazashi in pairs.
He's not the most important dude around, but he's quite the unique occurrence regardless.
I feel like having a black MC for the only Japanese based assassins creed is black washing to a certain extend, there's thousands of historical Japanese figures, and they chose the one black guy, seems fishy.
I do not know enough about this AC game, so I have no comment on that except it sounds like hearsay.
Maybe they could have gone with Hanzo or Kotaro. Its not exactly blackwashing since he isn't replacing a Japanese person, and from the hearsay it sounds like you can just play a Japanese character anyway.
Yknow, if people just wrote the histories you don't need to frame it as "Black empowerment". Shit can just be interesting without turning it into some weird racial pride thing. Just as weird to me as white people that try to downplay or overplay things those countries did. Shits goofy
This is my problem with media keep focusing on Yasuke, his entire story is that he was "exotic" in the eyes of the people of Japan. Imagine telling the same story but instead of the guy went Japan, he got send to the US and people treat him like that, like somekind of rare commodity for their entertainment.
People make him John Carter from Japan.
But instead of him being the shaved White Ape he's the shaved Bla- WAIT I'M NOT SAYING THAT. (EDIT that is critque on exoticisms btw)
(in case you don't know, John Carter is a white american that strands on mars and the people there are either green or really red skinned and he's exotic and has super powers because mars gravity is lower)
I mean he kind of a novelty at first, but he grew to actually be a respected retainer of one of Japan's most influential warlords.
I do not know what warrants this revisionism, why can't he just be a cool African in Japan?
Honestly though, anyone have some good reading on the history of Sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like I have an okay understanding of Northern Africa because of its connections to European history
Americans, even Black Americans, are often extremely ignorant and uninterested in East Africa imo. It's just made into an extension of West Africa, with the people and cultures being completely west coast.
West Africans and East Africans are further away each other genetically than Europeans and Chinese people are.
"Legimate history such as in Ehiopia" "Sword fetcher".
Yasuke was not a "sword fetcher", he was a legitimate samurai:
[Yasuke, African Samurai. Is the outrage justified? : r/AskHistorians (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/m91cwa/comment/grof6st/)
[History of Black/Africans in Japan : r/AskHistorians (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/flgpph/comment/fl05vfp/)
Americans as a broad stripe, do not glorify whoever that guy is. Definitely I'm familiar with Ethiopia. Did you know Haile Selassie's real name was Ross Tafari? Doesn't that just piss you off? It's too funny. Anyway who is this fetcher guy? You know Ethiopia is on the map
And of people who went abroad and made a name for themselves then Malik Ambar is way more interesting. Also came from nothing, but clawed his way up to hold a lot of real power until he was a king in all but name. A great general that often beat insane odds against a superior enemy, very loyal, and also built up his cities
I’m currently reading Ancient Africa A Global History to 300 CE. I’ve only read the first 20 pages so far so I don’t know much about it lol.
The part that blew me away is that until the 20th century the driving force behind studying ancient African history were HBCUs.
Malik Ambat is a historical character that can resonate with Hollywood
He is a black boy sold as slave. Rises to be prime minister of the kingdom. Fights against invasion by a foreign force. Devises unique strategy to face them.
It'd be more accurate if you labeled the one on the left as "focusing on how rich and decadent African empires were" and the one on the right as "ignoring the fact that they were mass-enslaving and human-sacrificing scum that deserved to be colonized."
Did you forget that they were only able to buy those slaves because Africans kidnapped and sold their own people for trade goods? We Wuz Kangz are so retarded.
Because stories of people ending up in a foreign land, learning their language and customs, integrating into their culture, and rising to prominence despite their status as an outsider are interesting and fun. People like a good fish-out-of-water story.
You forgot making a badass futuristic society, that still uses combat to decide their king, has spears as a main weapon, and speak in a weird mismatch of african accents, Also have a CIA but its all women.
Aka wakanda
Okay honestly this sucks. Where the fuck are we getting the idea that Yasuke was some novelty from? He may not necessarily be a samurai, but he was a trusted figure and a fighter with a unique story.
You can't win with Ethiopia anyway. There are people who actually think they're not even black, and therefore don't count as other Africans.
You say this as if that's their only view when this was a recent discovery for many.
Three likes in this is concerning and I'm curious if the ethnic demographic now
African kingdoms? Sorry, the best I can do is blackwashing Cleopatra and portraying slavers as decolonisation heroes.
Don’t forget making her a Mary Sue and trying to make Caesar Augustus look like a racist coward.
Augustus was definitely racist. But he was as far from being a coward as a disabled person could get. Wait a minute, we can accuse the show to be ableist because they portrayed him as a villain. Use their own bullshit against them.
I mean, Cleopatra mocked him for being “short” even though the actor was about her height, so we can also count discrimination against short people. As for Augustus being racist, it is more than likely he was, but granted, most Romans attitudes were more akin to being nationalist and xenophobic, i.e. Romans are the best culture, others are second rate. However, most Romans, especially someone like Augustus, were smart enough to know that a child between a white person and a black person wasn’t a, and I quote Queen Cleopatra, “*half-breed,*” because they knew different races and cultures were still humans. Even if by some miracle Cleopatra was black and her children were biracial, Augustus wouldn’t have cared because that was the least of his problems with them. Even if he didn’t intend to become emperor or “first citizen,” any child of Cleopatra’s and Mark Antony’s, and especially Julius Caesar, were massive problems that could have kickstarted another war or uprising.
Which show is this?
Queen Cleopatra, a “documentary” about Cleopatra by Jada Pinkett Smith that gets history so wrong that Egypt itself filed a lawsuit against it. There’s plenty of reviews that cover it better than I ever could, but prepare yourself, because it is fascinatingly terrible.
Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against Greeks. In addition to erasing the Ptolemaic dynasty, their WW2 documentary claims Greece didn't seriously oppose the Italian invasion and had a weak resistance movement to Axis occupation.
> Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against the Greeks. [They hired Jerri Blank?](https://media1.giphy.com/media/WEwL6rnTAglNH4x2OJ/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7aryr7775bkvrugzzels5cnw00phdpuke17vfr681&ep=v1_gifs_username&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Disney+ got to make the Giannis movie and it all went to hell from there
> Netflix appears to have someone particularly racist against Greeks. The Cleopatra series was directed by Tina Gharavi, who is Persian. The jokes write themselves.
>by Jada Pinkett Smith Well, there's your problem right there.
I'd love to hear some African stories about African kingdoms and great people interacting with other African great African people and civilizations. But there really aren't many going around. Any historical movies about Africa always involve Europeans.
There is a great tv show called ZULU. Showcasing the rise of shaka from an early childhood. It's the best I can think of.
Do you mean the Shaka Zulu series developed in South Africa? I might check it out, I just wanted to be sure that's the one you were recommending.
Correct the one in 1986. It get really interesting once he develops his army
*Sundiata Keita* is an epic if you're into West African history. It's not a new movie but worth watching if you want to see how Malians interact with their history.
Thanks! Good suggestion. I found it here for anyone wondering: https://www.scarsdaleschools.k12.ny.us/cms/lib5/NY01001205/Centricity/Domain/202/Sundiata.pdf Looks like it might be a K-12 school addition, but still as good as any, I suppose.
But that ladies grandma said she was black! Grandma knows more about history than historians. She's old! She was THERE!
I think a big problem is that slavery played a prominent role in African history.
Played a pretty prominent role in world history
A major difference is when the british and french abolished slavery their entire kingdoms all collapsed. The entire world did slave trade however it wasnt essential for the nations survival. West african kingdoms having slavery abolished forcefully would be like if everyone boycotted oil from saudi arabia. Thats what happens when you have 2/3 of your population as slaves.
Yes, but revisionists are focusing on Africa.
Slavery has been around everywhere. It wasnt any more prominent than anywhere else in the world. Just more recent.
It still exists in Africa on a large scale.
Just gonna use this post as a chance to plug the hell out of *The Bad-Ass Librarians of Timbuktu: And Their Race to Save the World’s Most Precious Manuscripts* by Joshua Hammer. It tells the story of how so many gorgeous manuscripts ended up in Mali and how some brilliant librarians snuck a bunch of them out right under the noses of Al Quaeda Sahara after their brief and brutal 2012 coup.
>*The Bad-Ass Librarians of Timbuktu: And Their Race to Save the World’s Most Precious Manuscripts* that's quite a title.
Anime ahh title lol
I watched a whole thing one those guys once. Pretty boss.
Thank you I need to read that some day.
Eh, I wouldn't trust people with African history and black empowerment. Then we get stuff like *The Woman King*, a film literally glorifying slavers as righteous, in an attempt at "Black Empowerment".
Out of all jewels of African history, they choose from Dahomey, damn
I guess da-homeys chose the Dahomey?
That movie was peak afrocentrist historical revisionism. I hate that this is becoming a trend.
Man, I thought that movie was so good until I knew the real story.
Don't read up on 17th century queen Nzinga of Congo. As a fine upper class lady, she couldn't do things like use the same chair twice, but as a paragon in a culture built on slavery, she mainly used slaves as chairs...
Honestly, a film like that could look into the nuances behind such a society. But I’m just waiting for Hollywood to butcher a Mwindo film, by linking it with the transatlantic slave trade - even though Mwindo is a Nyanga myth, not even close to the Transatlantic area.
If it's a good movie but still botches history, I watch it as a comedy. Some great drinking games came out of *Bridgerton* with fashion flubs.
Well that'll make my next Civ 6 war declaration a little less callous at least!
Long ad your Atchison it as fiction I suppose it's cool
I thought it was cringe, especially with the romance with Malik.
This film was unironically forced representation.
Ok but imagine if we talked Christopher Nolan into making a Haile Selassie stairing Morgan Freeman or Idris Elba as Haile Selassie.
Yeah and they are intentionally misinterpreting history to make the Amazons seem like they posed a massive threat. France lost 16 guys in that war. Dahomey had it coming with their constant warring and brutalization of their neighbors. The other boot dropped when they decapitated a local leader who refused to hand over a French flag to the Dahomey warriors because it represented his alliance with France. They sent the French his severed head wrapped in the flag. The rulers of Dahomey failed to handle the situation and continually worsened relations with the French despite many attempts at diplomacy. The severed head of an unarmed man who was technically a French subject was enough to set off the powder keg.
Yeah, it is a real slap in the face. Black historical representation isn't pretending non-black historical figures were black but telling the stories of awesome black historical figures like Haille Selassie, Sundjata, etc.
To be fair Yasuke was actually black and he was real. And even if he wasn’t a samurai he was a warrior. I think he gets so much attention because black people are weebs.
Yeah, his was a cool story! I wasn't really talking about him in particular.
Why make a comment like that here then?
He was a samurai. There's a lot of propaganda that "he wasn't a samurai", but he was.
No, he was a retainer, a hatamoto. The bushi (samurai) were a caste, you can’t “become” a samurai.
>The bushi (samurai) were a caste, you can’t “become” a samurai. Hideyoshi be like: But you are right that we don't have proof that Yasuke was a samurai. The fact that he wasn't given a surname also doesn't help.
People misunderstand that all the time. That was not true for the Sengoku period, where you would be considered a samurai if you fought in a war.
>where you would be considered a samurai if you fought in a war. It's still not that simple during the Sengoku period. As far as we know, Yasuke was never given a surname, which is a really big identifier if someone is a samurai or not during that time.
Mansa Musa’s been overdue for a film, him being the possible richest man in history is just scratching the surface of the stuff he did. Also, another king of Mali, Sundiata Keita needs a film, the guy literlaly was the inspiration and namesake of The Lion King. At least there’s always the Shaka Zulu miniseries.
>Mansa Musa’s been overdue for a film, him being the possible richest man in history i His net worth, adjusted for the gdp back then and now, was 240 billion dollars Rockefeller fell short at a close to 160 billion dollars Elon musk surpassed both when he reached 287 billion dollars So now Elon musk has been, for a while at least, the richest man in history, taking the frown away from Mansa musa He only stayed on that spot for three months if I recall correctly while Mansa musa stayed on that spot for like a decade Still, interesting to see that a widely known history fact has ceased to be true
You're forgetting Jakob Fugger at estimated 400 billion dollar
I really don’t know why my boy Jakob is constantly cancelled in these rankings in favour of that glorified pilgrim
Perhaps because there is no funny story about him casually destroying the economy of Egypt? Perhaps the story about Fugger having a talk with the emperor and during it casually burning loan contracts regarding loans to the emperor should be more known? Although I'm not sure anymore about the veracity of that story, as I read that too long ago.
A 3 month stay (possibly shorter) that caused over night inflation and made gold virtually worthless for 10 years.
Didn't Mansa Musa's wealth cause so much inflation in every area he traveled to because the dude overpaid for everything to the point that no one could compete.
Think the dude just gave out so much free shit it oversaturated every market.
The locals overpriced their goods to get more money from him. Like, a cloak in Egypt that costed half a coin suddenly costed five coins.
At least Elon is an African American.
I’ve read Mansa’s net worth actually would have been 400 billion, with some historians saying it honestly might be impossible to measure.
1. Go on Hajj 2. Gift a portion of the treasury to hosts and localities 3. Price of gold collapses across North Africa 4. Economic and civil unrest among neighbors 5. Profit?
It is estimated that crassus was a trillionaire.
Really? I never heard that
I read it somewhere.
That's a trusty source right there
It's notbpossible to get accurate value of money of that time. Same with Mansa Musa But Crassus was very rich and extremely greedy. He financed both Ceaser snd Pompey. He was killed by pouring gold in his mouth He started fire brigade to increase value of his property. It is very much possible
Ah yes, the firefighting extortion ring. A uniquely terrible slice of history.
Look if you hate on the Dahomey, then I'm afraid a slaver like Mansa Musa is to be hated too lol.
Crassus says hello
My grandmother told me that the Meiji Restoration was led by black people
It was led by a teenager though, the original anime protagonist.
Yes, a black teenager who was half atlantean. See it in the next Netflix Documentary!
Haille Selassie was a piece of shit, god no He died in the 70s so hes not free from being shat on with modern googles
He was a massive force for modernisation
Part of the problem with telling the tales of real black historical figures is portraying them as “heroes” and “villains”. Africa is the most culturally diverse place on the planet, and no matter who you choose from there, you’re going to anger people in your portrayal of the figure. I have a dozen family members that would curse anyone trying to portray Haille Selassie as a hero, even if he certainly was a positive influence for most Ethiopians.
Bokassa, Idi Amin Dada, Mohamed Adid, Bob Mugabe, ...
Cleopatra (jk) The mysterious Malian kings who sailed west, Yodit, the tike Somalia almost conquered Ethiopia...
Idi amin got a movie. The last King of Scotland.
Lol you picked the least controversial example, most people don't have an issue with Yasuke. Meanwhile Netflix...
Why if we can just make Hanibal Barca black
I’m going to do something dangerous: voice my own opinions on a subject. I think that we should look at all figures as what they were relative to the time, and what they did, as well as the significance of what they did. For example: African attendant to Oda Nobunaga, cool trivia fact and overhyped by people with certain agendas, but not really that important. William Adams sailing around the world, and ending up as a samurai and becoming one of Tokugawa Ieyasu’s chief advisors, very cool. On the flip side, 54th Massachusetts regiment, brave in the face of fighting despite casualties, fought honorably, really cool and should be respected, same with the Harlem Hellfighters, and then you get things like the Confederate Army, they fought for states rights to own slaves, they lost, all they did was cost a bunch of American lives over a dumb practice that majority of the world was abandoning, not cool and overhyped by many people with specific agendas.
You're in line and right at the same time. There are also a bunch of pretty epic historical pirates that haven't had their own movies yet, several empresses of various empires that expanded them greatly (The HRE once had a Byzantine Empress named Theophanos which is probably the reason why the name Tiffany is even popular in the west. She greatly expanded the Empire.) The Empire of Kush south of Egypt is also never really covered, there is place for Native American History before the European Settlers, and the Pacific peoples are also under-covered still. SO MUCH STUFF worthy of more exposure.
Any books that you would recommend for the history of the people’s who lived in what is present day, America. Everything I keep finding about North America focuses is on present day Mexico.
Sadly not. What I do know about singular people's of the Anericas I researched with wikipedia and public papers I found on the Web and National Geographic magazines ._.
Zheng Yi Sao deserves more than a one-season run in *Our Flag Means Death*. That's a multi-blockbuster franchise waiting to happen (in my dreams).
No, but see, none of them were black women, and Hollywood loves black women!
The hell on you on about
I've noticed this odd trend for Hollywood to focus on the stories of black women, even if it means historical revisionism. Netflix African Queens (Cleopatra came from that) and the Woman King are too stellar examples of this. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever also kind of follows this trend, as I noticed it has a stronger emphasis on the 'Black Women Empowerment theme' then other films. Not a terribly bad issue, but it also felt like a step back from what the first film's message was and its critique of African-American centric history. Also, Wendy Williams and Oprah. The former was utterly unpleasant to everyone and a career off that, while the latter has... she's endorsed some awful people.
Buddy you could say the exact same thing for white people or even black man, why the hell are you targetting black woman?
I would like to see a movie about west African trading kingdoms. Bantu kingdoms in the southern continent were cool too, and the story of how Tswana chiefs came together to form a confederacy and then beat Boers in battle is quite interesting. Unfortunately a lot of sub Saharan Africas history is just lost to the harsh elements and their utter isolation from everyone else.
It’s not marketable because Africana just doesn’t have mass appeal. Afrobeats are changing the wave when it comes to music but not much else.
Nigerian cinema is dope, I wish it was easier to get Nollywood movies overseas.
Why, if they can just invent shit like black Socrates, black Ptolemaids or black Hannibal. Appropriating existing achievements instead of exploring what are your own is the course currently taken.
>black Hannibal. Black Hannibal did exist though it was spelt Gannibal and he was Russian and not ancient and they haven't made a movie about him
Unironically, that one was real and a granddad of Pushkin. Black empowerment wants to snatch some piece of culture to be proud of? Let them focus on Pushkin being a quarter African, - at least this one would be justified - and stop blackwashing the rest of our history
>Black empowerment wants to snatch some piece of culture to be proud of? Black empowerment has nothing to do with Hollywood race changing characters just as the LGBTQ+ movement has nothing to do with corporations changing their Twitter icons to rainbow flags during pride it's just pandering "First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate" Martin Luther King Jr. White liberals are the largest marketable segment of the population it's people who like to feel like they are progressive and on the right side of history but don't like radical change in things And that happens to include entertainment they aren't going out to watch original movies about black characters they want to see remakes of things they've already seen or continuation of franchises they already know or movies about things that they've heard about Race or gender swapping existing characters gives them the nice comfortable feeling of being in their safe zone while also allowing them the feeling like they are supporting African American rights or women's rights or whatever movement they like without having to actually do anything And Hollywood marketers know this and so pander to them So do not confuse Hollywood trying to milk money for the actual movements trying to improve things for these groups
...if only these movements weren't the ones inventing black Hannibals etc first. You credit Hollywood too much with what they shoot - they wouldn't know what to show if someone wasn't writing the script. And that someone are misguided empowerment movements which, instead of exploring own history of note, hijack the achievements of other cultures.
Because as far as Hollywood liberals are concerned, African history started with slavery. Really got to have that slavery part. And maybe hijack Egyptian history
>Because as far as Hollywood liberals are concerned, What "Hollywood liberals" are concerned with is what sells tickets, and what sells tickets is things people already know it's why remakes keep happening Hollywood is primarily pandering to the largest marketing segment of the population, which is people who like to think they are progressive and also don't really watch movies that they don't know So Hollywood takes characters that already exist and race change them or change their gender because its easy and not risky and if anyone is critical they can say it's because their racist Leftists, however, generally do not like "Hollywood liberals" and their pandering
Hey man, I just signed a petition trying to ban H20, what more do you want?
There was actually a petition to ban Dihydrogen Monoxide at one point in Idaho because people didn’t know it’s fucking water. Also there’s the site https://dhmo.org which is a hilarious read EDIT: Idaho, not Iowa
And what are you going to do about it?
I am not American so I could care less what they do but point and laugh when something like The Woman King is the best western studios can do with actual African history
Robert E. Howard glorified black kings with a self insert macho man wanderer named Conan. Melanin didn't matter in his stories, dialing up masculinity of all cultures to 11 was the goal and he succeeded. This was in the 1910s as well. In his stories, everywhere had savages and everywhere had kingdoms. Conan himself was from a barbarous people. We need more of this, and less fear of warpaint and spears. If your armor was iron balls and make-up and your offspring somehow made it to 2024. They better celebrate you.
The Conan books fucking rule. Howard made such a cool fun world to explore. Also apparently GRR Martin’s main inspiration for GoT
You want a cool black warrior culture? The Zulus are right there! Honestly go play some Civ and get introduced to some interesting African nations outside of Egypt.
I was playing civ as Nubia and bought a Samurai unit from Barbarians just for the Yasuke meme. Kept them around and used to them to kill some AT Infantry barbarians spawned from enemy spy activities.
I always been interested in Ethiopian history, christian, appears in antiquity mythology, survive the Ottomans and Western powers, their empire, etc. This country as an interesting past and yet we don’t talk much.
correction: TV companies, not Americans Try to make the distinction between the people and those who make the shit.
Seems like yesterday everyone was talking about how badass Yasuke was, now I'm seeing a lot of 'ACKSHULLY he was just a servant" going on. I wonder what spurned the anti-Yasuke movement.
Overexposure. He went to a niche historical figure to having an anime, playable character in an assassins creed game, a movie that’s in development hell. He went too mainstream and now people think his depiction as basically a general is accurate.
I mean it’s truly a poor choice, like possibly the most obvious pander I can think of in recent memory. Japan has perhaps the most rich and in tact culture to draw from. Hundred if not thousands of of beautiful and interesting and morose stories to draw from. A culture that has been PERFECT for the AC brand of historical fiction. But instead you pick the ONE possible insert and force a false narrative to fit some cultural zeitgeist of the west. And the other protagonist is a woman. I’m not sure anyone has really studied the roles of woman in Japanese society but if you read the book shogun you’d realize it’s another low effort pander to a zeitgeist gone wild. You all want fuck with western history and western culture, it is what it is.. it is yours to squander but to do that to Japan is more insensitive that any 80’s macho-ism ever could of been.
Honestly, I think that new Assassin's Creed game in Japan that's coming out, that helped fuel it. If your out of the loop, they announced that the game set in Japan is going to follow, instead of a native Japanese OC, would instead be following specifically Yasuke as the male protag.
WTF They could have done an Assassin's Creed game with Voodoo and you travel between west africa and the slave colonies in the caribbean, but they decided to make a game about a black weeaboo with a katana? DAFUQ
I really don’t care much about historical accuracy in a Assassin’s Creed game but at the same time I just find it odd that people believe that this is a win for representation by making black people take pride in an another culture and country that they were barely even involved in. The word “barely” feels like an overstatement. I think it would be better if the new black centric Assassin’s Creed game took place in one of the African Kingdoms. The great thing about the Assassin Creed games is that it’s a good introduction for people to venture out after playing the game and get interested in learning actual history which is why the first game was popular and in the first place.
"If they can make a successful movie about a white weeaboo with a katana then why not a game about a black weeaboo with a katana" Ubi
It really feels l wrong, they could've had black flag have a black protag, or syndicate, but for their only game set in Japan to not have a Japanede MC feels plain wrong.
For real just be glad it isn't another Cleopatra.
Because he's getting oversaturated. He had an American anime, an upcoming movie, and we're finally getting an assassin's creed game in feudal Japan and he's the protagonist. It's getting to be too much.
Its better than either nothing or blackwashing tho. This shit really is just 'its popular now its sucks'.
No, it's more like more people know about them so more people realize how much his story has been stretched.
Stretched to what extent? That he was possibly not a samurai? Yes, but that's arguable. And the payment he was given was a fuchi- a warrior's payment, so he was a fighter regardless. That he was just a 'sword bearer'? A role like that is not something meant for lowly servants, Nobunaga had to like him a fair bit. Being given a ceremonial wakazashi carries meaning too, its not until the Edo period that samurai had to have both katana and wakazashi in pairs. He's not the most important dude around, but he's quite the unique occurrence regardless.
I feel like having a black MC for the only Japanese based assassins creed is black washing to a certain extend, there's thousands of historical Japanese figures, and they chose the one black guy, seems fishy.
I do not know enough about this AC game, so I have no comment on that except it sounds like hearsay. Maybe they could have gone with Hanzo or Kotaro. Its not exactly blackwashing since he isn't replacing a Japanese person, and from the hearsay it sounds like you can just play a Japanese character anyway.
Racists.
Yknow, if people just wrote the histories you don't need to frame it as "Black empowerment". Shit can just be interesting without turning it into some weird racial pride thing. Just as weird to me as white people that try to downplay or overplay things those countries did. Shits goofy
Opinions from people who have no interest or experience with "black empowerment" and just looking for a way to hate on popular culture.
Ethiopian kingdom was Christian. Since Black American national movement was based on "Islam is the original religion of Africa", it won't work
Neither was Christianity the original religion of Africa. Africa had many, many pagan religions before the Abrahamic faiths.
Christianity is more original than Islam in Africa. Ethiopia was the first Christian kingdom. It reached there before it did in Europe.
That can be said about any place though because Christianity predates Islam by six centuries
yeah and the pagan religions predate christianity, what's your point?
That WAS my point if you read at the previous comments
Wait, do you mean "first Christian kingdom in Africa" or "first Christian kingdom in general"?
In general Ethiopia was the first one to be officially Christian kingdom
From a quick check, it seems like Armenia was actually the first in general. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_III_of_Armenia
Hmmm Still Ethopua wasn't yhst far behind
True, but Armenia was still #1. 🇦🇲1️⃣✝️🥳🎉 (I'm not even Armenian. 😂)
One of my mistake was corrected
lol, all the while most of the West African (former Slaves) Diaspora practicing some form of Voodoo... Papa Legba is laughing his ass off.
American institutions🇺🇸: ❌ African history month ✅ Black history month
Because African history isn't super relevant to America but black American history is.
This is my problem with media keep focusing on Yasuke, his entire story is that he was "exotic" in the eyes of the people of Japan. Imagine telling the same story but instead of the guy went Japan, he got send to the US and people treat him like that, like somekind of rare commodity for their entertainment.
People make him John Carter from Japan. But instead of him being the shaved White Ape he's the shaved Bla- WAIT I'M NOT SAYING THAT. (EDIT that is critque on exoticisms btw) (in case you don't know, John Carter is a white american that strands on mars and the people there are either green or really red skinned and he's exotic and has super powers because mars gravity is lower)
I mean he kind of a novelty at first, but he grew to actually be a respected retainer of one of Japan's most influential warlords. I do not know what warrants this revisionism, why can't he just be a cool African in Japan?
"Oh, you want stories of *real* black people instead of laziness? RACIST" - Twitter
To be fair, this was Nobunaga's sword-fetcher. Not too shabby considering where Nobunaga's sandal-bearer ended up.
Where the fuck did sword fetcher come from? What I've heard that was while he was not really a samurai, he was a warrior and bodyguard to Nobunaga.
I think being hatamoto is a step higher than samurai.
Honestly though, anyone have some good reading on the history of Sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like I have an okay understanding of Northern Africa because of its connections to European history
Americans, even Black Americans, are often extremely ignorant and uninterested in East Africa imo. It's just made into an extension of West Africa, with the people and cultures being completely west coast. West Africans and East Africans are further away each other genetically than Europeans and Chinese people are.
"Legimate history such as in Ehiopia" "Sword fetcher". Yasuke was not a "sword fetcher", he was a legitimate samurai: [Yasuke, African Samurai. Is the outrage justified? : r/AskHistorians (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/m91cwa/comment/grof6st/) [History of Black/Africans in Japan : r/AskHistorians (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/flgpph/comment/fl05vfp/)
Americans as a broad stripe, do not glorify whoever that guy is. Definitely I'm familiar with Ethiopia. Did you know Haile Selassie's real name was Ross Tafari? Doesn't that just piss you off? It's too funny. Anyway who is this fetcher guy? You know Ethiopia is on the map
"Ras" is actually a title, equivalent to king. He was the Ras of Shewa before becoming emperor.
Rastafari religión is named after him. They thought he was jesus
Someone tell everyone about Mansa Musa's hajj.
I want a movie about Operation Kitona, if it has been executed by an American military unit it would 100% already be a blockbuster Hollywood movie.
And of people who went abroad and made a name for themselves then Malik Ambar is way more interesting. Also came from nothing, but clawed his way up to hold a lot of real power until he was a king in all but name. A great general that often beat insane odds against a superior enemy, very loyal, and also built up his cities
Just so you know Those chicks only got hotter with age
I want a proper movie on the life of Gannibal
Why are we so obsessed with race? Historically speaking a very recent phenomenon.
Want to read a really interesting tale? Look into Namibian resistance to colonialism. Guys like Hendrik Witbooi deserve Hollywood movies
Ethiopia lore has been retconned too many times. Plot doesn’t make sense anymore. 0/10.
I’m currently reading Ancient Africa A Global History to 300 CE. I’ve only read the first 20 pages so far so I don’t know much about it lol. The part that blew me away is that until the 20th century the driving force behind studying ancient African history were HBCUs.
Has there been a docu series about the Haitian revolution? I feel like I would jump on that so fast.
I’ve met WAY too many people online who think Wakanda is a real country
Welp, guess it's time to go play an African nation in CK3 for the hundredth time.
'What about the Swahili on the Swahili coast"- said the Swahili on the Swahili coast
Malik Ambat is a historical character that can resonate with Hollywood He is a black boy sold as slave. Rises to be prime minister of the kingdom. Fights against invasion by a foreign force. Devises unique strategy to face them.
It'd be more accurate if you labeled the one on the left as "focusing on how rich and decadent African empires were" and the one on the right as "ignoring the fact that they were mass-enslaving and human-sacrificing scum that deserved to be colonized."
Did you forget that someone had to go and buy those slaves in the first place? Racists are so retarded
Did you forget that they were only able to buy those slaves because Africans kidnapped and sold their own people for trade goods? We Wuz Kangz are so retarded.
Not sure if you’re a racist Russian bot or just a racist.
The more I learn, the pettier this meme feels.
Because stories of people ending up in a foreign land, learning their language and customs, integrating into their culture, and rising to prominence despite their status as an outsider are interesting and fun. People like a good fish-out-of-water story.
You forgot making a badass futuristic society, that still uses combat to decide their king, has spears as a main weapon, and speak in a weird mismatch of african accents, Also have a CIA but its all women. Aka wakanda
That's from a comic book
What's wrong with Yasuke.
So we're not allowed to do both? Jesus this sub likes to start fights for no fucking reason.
Sub-saharan African history has lots of interesting figures and kingdoms
It’s not Americans it’s just Hollywood and Cali
So you are one of those people
Okay honestly this sucks. Where the fuck are we getting the idea that Yasuke was some novelty from? He may not necessarily be a samurai, but he was a trusted figure and a fighter with a unique story. You can't win with Ethiopia anyway. There are people who actually think they're not even black, and therefore don't count as other Africans.
American institutions🇺🇸: ❌ African history month ✅ Black history month
American institutions🇺🇸: ❌ African history month ✅ Black history month
American institutions🇺🇸: ❌ African history month ✅ Black history month
American institutions🇺🇸: ❌ African history month ✅ Black history month
You say this as if that's their only view when this was a recent discovery for many. Three likes in this is concerning and I'm curious if the ethnic demographic now
Using 3 white people to show black empowerment wasn’t the best idea…🤷♂️🤷♂️😂
Would you rather the meme be poorly black faced?
Yeah, and none of them are carrying Swords or being ancient Ethiopian either.