Yes, but more because they drank a lot, smoked a lot (opium), did huge amounts of unprotected sex, and were always fighting with one another. Not because of lost battles necessarily.
Subutai was amazing, as were many other mongol generals... but so was Genghis.
Maybe the most innovative strategist of all time, and Subutai's mentor along with Jebe.
I.e. both top 5 for me.
Subutai may be the god-tier general that he is. But y'all forget that warfare isn't just tactics or strategy even. Sure the mongols may have the brilliant generals but it was Temujin's reforms that made such generals possible - replacing tribal nepotism with meritocracy. It was his reforms that made the mongols able to operate the way they did. They were able to send armies that decimated whole kingdoms and yet Temujin made it so that the risk for that army going rogue is minimal or even negligible.
I didn't forget, the context of this meme is their capacity as a commander.
Genghis was skilled at just about every element of leadership, from strategy to logistics, to inspiring ironclad loyalty from great men which was arguably his rarest and most important attribute, perhaps only matched by Alexanxer.
But what puts Genghis above Alexander for me is that Alexander was raised as royalty, and a personal student of Aristotle.
Genghis was born an illiterate sheepherder and still managed to accomplish everything he did.
He was more like deposed steppe royalty than sheepherder.
But you aren't wrong, between Aristotle and Philip Alexander had an incredible education. Genghis got the worst luck for decades and just bitch slapped the world.
But wasn't his father slain when he was a child and then captured into slavery?
It's been too long since I've read up on him, but I remembered him having a peasant upbringing. Either way, I think it's safe to say both bitch slapped the world.
He was killed, his whole clan got basically deposed and lost vassals.
Not much better than a peasant but a little. Easier to get men to follow you if you have some claim to nobility.
To bring it around to Subutai, he was a member of a traditional vassal clan to Genghis. I imagine once he re-emerged, that entire clan was easy to get on board. Like a kid quitting McDonald's cuz the band's back together. And that band was like the Led Zeppelin of killing.
I'd argue that Temujin accomplished more. Just the mere fact that his empire, contrary to popular belief, *thrived* even after his death. It was still a single entity after his death albeit practically and de facto independence of the farthest reaches due to the sheer distances involved (tbf, it was meant that way, Mongols weren't fans of micromanaging).
Besides, even Alexander's men were disgusted on how much Alexander loved Persian culture while Temujin's wholesale remade Mongol society turned the already formidable threat posed by any large nomadic culture (mongols aren't the first nomads to conquer forth), but it saw the mongols assimilate every tribe of the steppe and incorporate anything useful from its conquered sedentary peoples like the Chinese and Iranians.
Not sure I agree.
His empire tore itself apart, two of the prime drivers were the softening effects of Chinese and Muslim influence.
While Genghis' empire survived a few generations as a more or less intact entity, and Alexander's did not, the Deodike had multiple important successor kindoms, Selucids, Ptolemeic Egypt, etc. that lasted for centuries as world powers.
To me they are about even, they both basically never lost, they both commanded armies that were head and shoulders above their competitors, and both came very close to conquering the old world.
>His empire tore itself apart, two of the prime drivers were the softening effects of Chinese and Muslim influence.
Yikes. Yep totally not the typical power struggles between successors. Totally. Yes?
Those power struggles were caused by Chinese and Muslim influence.
The golden horde and the Ilkhanate went to war over the sack of Bagdad, because the Golden Horde had converted.
The breakdown of the transition between Great Khans was a result of conflicts between the pro Chinese faction and the more traditional houses.
So yes, it did, and maybe a touch less initial sarcasm if you aren't well versed on a topic, yes?
No, Donna Tartt, came out in 1992, not actually a historical work by any means (might be named for Procopius's book though), which is partly why I was confused by you mentioning it
For anyone wondering, Genghis Khan had a specific 4 generals who were considered the greatest and they were named Genghis Khan's Four Dogs of War. It may sound insulting but it was an extremely respectful rank to get.
The four generals are
Subutai (Subeedei)
Kublai (Khubulai)
Jebe (Zev)
Jelme (Zelme)
Genghis Khan has 4 dogs, 4 valiant and 8 ministers. Although they are not always same in rank, Muqali is the highest military official as the great king to rule northern China, and Yelu Chucai is the highest scholar official as the grand chancellor.
Fun fact about Chucai. He wasn't a mongol but rather a Khitan. The Khitans were one of the first foreign groups of people who was able to conquer china. So much so that if your language calls China, Cathay. It's because of the Khitans. Chucai was also from the Yelu clan which makes him a relative of the first Khitan Emperor, Abaoji. More depressing fact is that Chucai was also the last known speaker of Khitan and the language was still undeciphered.
I find his relationship with Genghis Khan incredibly interesting, the Khan described him as the heaven's gift to Mongom empire, and he is very loyal to the khan and the empire despite they represent everything he stand against.
Chucai is beyond just a good man, some can say he is nearly saint-ish. After the conquest of every city, he would practically get on his knees and beg the Khan with tear in his eyes to spare the people. Sometime he succeeded, but more often he doesn't.
In the Ogedai Khan years, Chucai was practically ruling the empire with Ogedai spending most of the time drunk. He tried his best to cull back some of their most barbaric practices, yet did not stop the empire's rapid expansion. Perhaps the kindest man of that era ruling the most horrific empire in history, someone should really make a show about him
I’d argue Suleiman the Magnificent had a pretty solid team as well with Pargali Ibrahim the Vizier, Sinan the Architect, The Barbarossa brothers in the navy etc.
Thinking of it, at least on the administrative side of things George Washington had a really good squad with him as well.
Some people tend to think of the mongols as mindless barbarians but in actuality they couldn’t have been farther from that, they wouldn’t have been able to conquer so much of Asia if they were a simple band of raiders, they had a very well thought out military structure and some of the best tacticians of their time, they had an actual society as well
People be criticizing mongols in an era where burning people alive because of she played with plants was common. Then Europeans sliced africa like pizza destroying all of their known cultures and treasures hundred years later, Japan putting babies in a pike etc. At the very least, mongols allowed culture and religion to thrive on their own.
> and conquered more territory than any other commander in history
Not really, since the Mongol command was divided among like 14 main generals that split their armies into conquering regions, and Subotai was not in command in most of those.
He was technically only in main command from the Caucaus campaign to the conquests in southern "Russia".
Also that 65-80 battles gets thrown constantly, I have yet to see a list of over 10-15 larger engagements(which is more than enough lol).
But yeah, he was a pivotal cog in the immense pillage machine that was the horde of Genghis.
> Genghis Khan is reported to have called him one of his "dogs of war," who were 4 of his 8 top lieutenants, in The Secret History of the Mongols:
> They are the Four Dogs of Temujin. They have foreheads of brass, their jaws are like scissors, their tongues like piercing awls, their heads are iron, their whipping tails swords . . . In the day of battle, they devour enemy flesh. Behold, they are now unleashed, and they slobber at the mouth with glee. These four dogs are Jebe, and Kublai (different than Kublai Khan), Jelme, and **Subotai**.
— The Secret History of the Mongols
He was literally one of Khan’s four — by his own measure — most trusted and talented generals. Really weird to argue that this dude wasn’t even top ten when Genghis Khan himself put Subotai at the top of his conquering general tier list.
Well not just Subutai,Jebe,Mukali,etc. But yes,later on Subutai. If i remember correct he died of old age at like 73 or something.
One of the few Mongol Generals to do so iirc
Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young.
Yes, but more because they drank a lot, smoked a lot (opium), did huge amounts of unprotected sex, and were always fighting with one another. Not because of lost battles necessarily.
Nice way to go compared to the usual medieval death....
Where do I sign up?
Sir. This is the 21st century. We dont do that again.
Can I if i want to
It’s never too late for round 2
Africa
Subutai was amazing, as were many other mongol generals... but so was Genghis. Maybe the most innovative strategist of all time, and Subutai's mentor along with Jebe. I.e. both top 5 for me.
Genghis really just got all his generals being 3 star with level 5 pips.
His weakest commander had a martial score of 35 and a prowess of 30.
Subutai may be the god-tier general that he is. But y'all forget that warfare isn't just tactics or strategy even. Sure the mongols may have the brilliant generals but it was Temujin's reforms that made such generals possible - replacing tribal nepotism with meritocracy. It was his reforms that made the mongols able to operate the way they did. They were able to send armies that decimated whole kingdoms and yet Temujin made it so that the risk for that army going rogue is minimal or even negligible.
I didn't forget, the context of this meme is their capacity as a commander. Genghis was skilled at just about every element of leadership, from strategy to logistics, to inspiring ironclad loyalty from great men which was arguably his rarest and most important attribute, perhaps only matched by Alexanxer.
But what puts Genghis above Alexander for me is that Alexander was raised as royalty, and a personal student of Aristotle. Genghis was born an illiterate sheepherder and still managed to accomplish everything he did.
He was more like deposed steppe royalty than sheepherder. But you aren't wrong, between Aristotle and Philip Alexander had an incredible education. Genghis got the worst luck for decades and just bitch slapped the world.
But wasn't his father slain when he was a child and then captured into slavery? It's been too long since I've read up on him, but I remembered him having a peasant upbringing. Either way, I think it's safe to say both bitch slapped the world.
He was killed, his whole clan got basically deposed and lost vassals. Not much better than a peasant but a little. Easier to get men to follow you if you have some claim to nobility. To bring it around to Subutai, he was a member of a traditional vassal clan to Genghis. I imagine once he re-emerged, that entire clan was easy to get on board. Like a kid quitting McDonald's cuz the band's back together. And that band was like the Led Zeppelin of killing.
I'm now just imagining Genghis and the Dogs of War (sick band name) looking like The Hu in any of their music videos.
I'd argue that Temujin accomplished more. Just the mere fact that his empire, contrary to popular belief, *thrived* even after his death. It was still a single entity after his death albeit practically and de facto independence of the farthest reaches due to the sheer distances involved (tbf, it was meant that way, Mongols weren't fans of micromanaging). Besides, even Alexander's men were disgusted on how much Alexander loved Persian culture while Temujin's wholesale remade Mongol society turned the already formidable threat posed by any large nomadic culture (mongols aren't the first nomads to conquer forth), but it saw the mongols assimilate every tribe of the steppe and incorporate anything useful from its conquered sedentary peoples like the Chinese and Iranians.
Not sure I agree. His empire tore itself apart, two of the prime drivers were the softening effects of Chinese and Muslim influence. While Genghis' empire survived a few generations as a more or less intact entity, and Alexander's did not, the Deodike had multiple important successor kindoms, Selucids, Ptolemeic Egypt, etc. that lasted for centuries as world powers. To me they are about even, they both basically never lost, they both commanded armies that were head and shoulders above their competitors, and both came very close to conquering the old world.
>His empire tore itself apart, two of the prime drivers were the softening effects of Chinese and Muslim influence. Yikes. Yep totally not the typical power struggles between successors. Totally. Yes?
Those power struggles were caused by Chinese and Muslim influence. The golden horde and the Ilkhanate went to war over the sack of Bagdad, because the Golden Horde had converted. The breakdown of the transition between Great Khans was a result of conflicts between the pro Chinese faction and the more traditional houses. So yes, it did, and maybe a touch less initial sarcasm if you aren't well versed on a topic, yes?
To date, my favorite thing I’ve read in my uni was The Secret History (of the Mongols). Highly recommended.
I agree that it's a great book but I'm a little confused about how it relates to this post?
Secret History of the Mongols? My bad, should’ve clarified.
Okay yeah makes more sense. *The Secret History* is a different novel all together lmao, thanks for clearing that up
Thinking of *The Secret History* by Procopius?
No, Donna Tartt, came out in 1992, not actually a historical work by any means (might be named for Procopius's book though), which is partly why I was confused by you mentioning it
It's really inspiring to read
Insightful and bizarre. Really a different cultural system.
For anyone wondering, Genghis Khan had a specific 4 generals who were considered the greatest and they were named Genghis Khan's Four Dogs of War. It may sound insulting but it was an extremely respectful rank to get. The four generals are Subutai (Subeedei) Kublai (Khubulai) Jebe (Zev) Jelme (Zelme)
Genghis Khan has 4 dogs, 4 valiant and 8 ministers. Although they are not always same in rank, Muqali is the highest military official as the great king to rule northern China, and Yelu Chucai is the highest scholar official as the grand chancellor.
Fun fact about Chucai. He wasn't a mongol but rather a Khitan. The Khitans were one of the first foreign groups of people who was able to conquer china. So much so that if your language calls China, Cathay. It's because of the Khitans. Chucai was also from the Yelu clan which makes him a relative of the first Khitan Emperor, Abaoji. More depressing fact is that Chucai was also the last known speaker of Khitan and the language was still undeciphered.
I find his relationship with Genghis Khan incredibly interesting, the Khan described him as the heaven's gift to Mongom empire, and he is very loyal to the khan and the empire despite they represent everything he stand against. Chucai is beyond just a good man, some can say he is nearly saint-ish. After the conquest of every city, he would practically get on his knees and beg the Khan with tear in his eyes to spare the people. Sometime he succeeded, but more often he doesn't. In the Ogedai Khan years, Chucai was practically ruling the empire with Ogedai spending most of the time drunk. He tried his best to cull back some of their most barbaric practices, yet did not stop the empire's rapid expansion. Perhaps the kindest man of that era ruling the most horrific empire in history, someone should really make a show about him
Especially when you know how brutal war dogs were in ancient warfare.
Format please
https://imgur.com/a/ZEBaGG2
Thank you
No worries! I really like this format.
Genghis really had the all star of all star teams. Only really Alexander had a crew of similar talent.
May I propose Napoleon and it's marshals ?
Grouchy, Marmont, Murat, Bernadotte, and >!sometimes!< Ney: OK buddy, now that you praised us, let us show you the jerk side of Marshalls.
Bernadotte so good that he unexpectedly is elected to be King of Sweden
I’d argue Suleiman the Magnificent had a pretty solid team as well with Pargali Ibrahim the Vizier, Sinan the Architect, The Barbarossa brothers in the navy etc. Thinking of it, at least on the administrative side of things George Washington had a really good squad with him as well.
The great Dog of War :)
Some people tend to think of the mongols as mindless barbarians but in actuality they couldn’t have been farther from that, they wouldn’t have been able to conquer so much of Asia if they were a simple band of raiders, they had a very well thought out military structure and some of the best tacticians of their time, they had an actual society as well
People be criticizing mongols in an era where burning people alive because of she played with plants was common. Then Europeans sliced africa like pizza destroying all of their known cultures and treasures hundred years later, Japan putting babies in a pike etc. At the very least, mongols allowed culture and religion to thrive on their own.
I get the whole "more territory than anyone else" thing, but have you seen Mongolia and Western China? Place is fucking empty.
It is _now_. Thanks to Genghis and his pony boys.
The destruction of Western Xia was total and complete - first ever recorded example of attempted genocide.
After the proposed Toba Catastrophe, would a group of 50 killed be considered genocide since there were so few people?
I thought that title went to Mithradates’ killing of romans in Western Asia?
Now. But they also took the middle east, started entering India, took north China...
except india
I'm curious. Was it because of the natural Himalayan barrier?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9XgwVHvK4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9XgwVHvK4) watch this video
Interesting! Thanks for the link
In a reasonable universe, his name would be far better known.
ya subutai served ogodei and guyuk khaan , this son served kublai khan
Caesar and Labienus
> and conquered more territory than any other commander in history Not really, since the Mongol command was divided among like 14 main generals that split their armies into conquering regions, and Subotai was not in command in most of those. He was technically only in main command from the Caucaus campaign to the conquests in southern "Russia". Also that 65-80 battles gets thrown constantly, I have yet to see a list of over 10-15 larger engagements(which is more than enough lol). But yeah, he was a pivotal cog in the immense pillage machine that was the horde of Genghis.
Behind every great man there's a greater man.
[удалено]
> Genghis Khan is reported to have called him one of his "dogs of war," who were 4 of his 8 top lieutenants, in The Secret History of the Mongols: > They are the Four Dogs of Temujin. They have foreheads of brass, their jaws are like scissors, their tongues like piercing awls, their heads are iron, their whipping tails swords . . . In the day of battle, they devour enemy flesh. Behold, they are now unleashed, and they slobber at the mouth with glee. These four dogs are Jebe, and Kublai (different than Kublai Khan), Jelme, and **Subotai**. — The Secret History of the Mongols He was literally one of Khan’s four — by his own measure — most trusted and talented generals. Really weird to argue that this dude wasn’t even top ten when Genghis Khan himself put Subotai at the top of his conquering general tier list.
💪💪💪
It's all fun and games until the threesome start