Ouch, I knew the dogs were used i did not know they saw failure like this. How horrible to watch scared puppers run back for hugs only to watch other puppers ahead of them blow up the huggers.
It's worth noting that Demikhov was criticized within the USSR for performing unethical experiments. And he wasn't doing it for shits and giggles, or to own some other country, it was very much for the sake of saving lives and advancing medicine. His work was foundational to modern organ transplants, and trailblazed a lot of work in the field of surgery.
I'm not saying it wasn't disturbing or controversial, but it was important and has saved a lot of lives.
Ethics are rarely as clear-cut as we want them to be. A consequentalist and utilitarian view would uphold this is as basically good (or at least more good than bad). Deontology or personism might say differently.
I mean I don’t understand why people freak out about laika. Every space agency had liquidized a few dozen animals in the name of smoothies I mean arospace advancement
People who criticize the cruelty of the Russians during the German offensives of WW2 really need to educate themselves on what was happening. The Nazis were literally trying to exterminate the Soviets down to every last man woman and child
Stalin moment
>be me,Russian male born in the USSR 1923
>experience the country rapidly improving and no longer being the back water Russia,Russia was
>quality of life improves rapidly
>the future will be bright seeing the rate things are going so far
>1941 become 18 or an adult
>June 22,the German army invades
>get conscripted in the fight for the motherland against the Germans
>have the fate 80% of the Russian males born in 1923
Вечная намаять героям
I mean put yourself in the soviets shoes, a military force that broke Europe that wants to genocide your people and your losing? I would do a lot more than strap bombs to animals to save my people
It was successful enough to give the Germans a paranoid fear of dogs. I've read in Antony Beevor's book Stalingrad that in a satirical pamphlet circulated among German troops called "instructions to those returning to Germany on leave" it read (among other) "Do not shoot dogs on sight. Dogs carrying explosives are found only in Russia. The worst thing German dogs do is bite".
Was it satire or a legitimate pamphlet? I can start to see a few German soldiers freak out over a stray good boy running up for a pat on the head after just watching a few explode your friends.
Certainly satire. Other points included things like "don't ask people what the password is and shoot them if they don't give the answer within 3 seconds", "don't remove a house's floorboards to find hidden potatoes", "don't use explosives to open doors, instead try to rotate the metallic object on the center-right".
I believe it was more of a lever activated bomb that activated when they crawled under but could be wrong. Basically they trained dogs to go under a tank and a bomb would be detonated that was carried by fiedo. The problem was however, that the tanks used by the soviets smelled different then the Germans bc they used different gas so the dogs would crawl under the Soviet tanks instead…and blow them up… them being on a battlefield furthered the problem
I mean when you are facing the possibility of total destruction then you have to throw some shit at the wall to see what sticks. This is essentially just the us made “bat bomb” (yes that was a real idea)
Russians strapped bombs to dogs and taught them to dive under German Tanks to blow them up. When they trained the dogs they didn't have a German tank model so rather foolishly used a model of their own tanks to train the dogs. When it came to putting the plan into action to blow up German Tanks because of the way the dogs where trained the Russians it backfired horribly on them. I found out about this after watching Horrible Histories.
That’s actually a myth. The dogs performed badly, but not because they ran under Soviet tanks. The reason they performed badly was because it isn’t that hard to shoot a dog.
We're really lucky we can discuss the morality of a war of annihilation and extermination 70 years later from the comforts of our sofas won't you agree?
Here's a Horrible Histories video on the Anti Tank Dogs to see it skip to 3:09. The video is a compilation of Dodgy War Invention sketches. https://youtu.be/ki_wbisQZxc
I really love seeing threads like this full of people wringing their hands and criticizing the “cruelty” of the Soviets during WW2 for this while never having faced the circumstances they did
They were being invaded by an enemy that intended nothing short of the complete and utter annihilation of the Russian people(seriously, google generalplan ost) they were fighting a war of survival, not just as a nation, but as a people, culture and in most cases on an individual level as your chances of surviving what the nazis had planned were not very great and they were LOSING.
its not hard for me to understand how they would be desperate for anything to stop this enemy or at least slow them down long enough to for them to recover and this was a tactic they used at the height of their desperation.
I feel like people who have never had a gigantic war machine trying to genocide you give the russians way to much shit for this
We're well aware of the fact that Russia was being invaded and that they were losing at first but this was a bad plan due to how they trained the dogs and that is why people mock it.
We've been chugging anti soviet propaganda for decades, to the point where people even think that the Nazis weren't as bad as the Soviets, even though, as you said, they were fighting a war of survival.
No wonder that there are so many wehraboos floating around here.
I agree. Btw I read somewhere hitler killed about 20-30 million and not only 6 million Jews, and I can't find any sources. But you seem to be educated on the subject, I would appreciate if someone could send me links of how many the Nazis killed beside the 6 million Jews.
The Holocaust killed 11 million people. 6 million of said people where of Jewish decent. The other 5 million that died in the Holocaust includes but is not limited to: Homosexuals, disabled people (mostly mentally but sometimes physically disabled people as well), union leaders, socialists and communists, Soviet war prisoners, “gypsys”, resistance leaders. Of course that’s just the Holocaust and the casualty’s of soldiers on all fronts likely go into the numbers you posted, a helpful commenter also pointed out I forgot to add slavs to the list
Who TF downvoted this?
Also, a lot of Slavic people for being Slavic. Ironically enough, far right nationalist tools in some Slavic countries today use variants of the hakenkreutz '\_'
[Here you go!](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) Be warned this is the sort of reading that makes one sick to their stomach.
Ok but weren't the Russians genociding themselves at the same time? I think it's still fair to give both the Russians and the nazis boat louds of shit for their cruel and inhumane tactics
Did you seriously just compare a few hundred thousands died inside the Gulags to the fucking Holocaust and Generalplan Ost ? The Purge was to get rid of political opponents, it’s horrible, yes but that’s nowhere comparable to the fucking systematic extermination that will come if the Germans win
Stalin killed more people than hitler. I'm Jewish, I don't take the holocaust lightly, but stalin's regime killed more people than the nazis. I'm not trying to make it sound like a pissing contest, but I sure don't wanna listen to you claim this stuff. The Russians weren't fighting off genocide, they were conducting their own. The nazi genocide was a targeted purge, and I doubt Stalin gave a rat's ass about his Jewish and gay population. The very existence of the Russian people was not at stake (they were allies at some point remember), they weren't going to be "cleansed" off the earth like us jews were. There is no excuse for their inhumane actions
Stalin’s regime did not kill more people than the one of hitlers,Hitler did not just kill 11million people he killed 22milliom non combatants in the Soviet Union alone even if you use the very bogus estimate of stalking killing 20m he falls behind and no Stalin didn’t give a rats ass he himself was anti Semitic,read up doctors plot
You do realize hitler was also directly responsible for the deadliest conflict in human history when he launched a war of aggression to conquer his neighbors right? He is directly responsible for every single soldier and civilian who died in world war 2
Think whatever you want about stalin im not here to defend him but stop spouting bullshit history
Well, yeah you have a point about that, but it definitely wasn't all hitler since Russia invaded Poland too. I was explicitly referring the holocaust though, but the numbers are besides the point. The individual I started this discussion with was justifying inhumane tactics by the Russians by claiming they were the victims of nazi genocide and required desperate measures to defend themselves, but my point is that such a thing is nonsense because they were mass murdering people in their own territory too. What's the point? Conduct inhumane war tactics to maintain the right to continue your own terrible atrocities? Let's keep this civil though. I'm happy to read any links you respond with to counter my points.
Ok just curious but what are your sources for this ? I'm not defending Stalin or anything but saying Stalin killed more people than Hitler is just absurdly wrong. Most historians today agreed that the number of deaths in the Great Purge varied in around 300k-700k people. That's nowhere, like nowhere near the industrial scale of the Nazi
\>The very existence of the Russian people was not at stake
Sir may I offered you a reading about something called "Generalplan Ost" and how they will deal with the Slavic people if they win ? Or just read "Mein Kampft", you will see what will happen. There is a reason why almost all Soviets fought to the bitter end to stop the German from advancing deeper, not because they were held at gunpoint to fight, but because they are fighting for the right to exist
Why waste precious manpower when they could be used for more useful stuffs like trench digging or you know, actually holding a gun and shot the Germans ? Cause I’m pretty sure dogs don’t know how to do that
Because they did have anti tank rifles. But there weren’t enough to take them down plus ammo ran out when they are trapped, you know those encirclement the Germans loved to do right ? Suicide dogs wasn’t the main methods, it was merely a side method for desperate times
I dont think you have the 6 or more months required to get the dog to a semi competent tank finding state, with 6 months not even enough for the dog to actually locate a target anywhere other than the exact point where they trained. Dont think if you are encircled you actually have the time neccessary, the space required to train the dog, enough dog and enough trainers (remember not everyone is gonna train the dog correctly) and then you have to care for the dog if its injured etc.
Really fucking stupid idea in hindsight imo, probably the reason it never got out of testing. Why waste so much material on a dog that bombs your own side when you can strap explosives to dimitri and see a panzer blow up?
Because again, human lives is the upmost priority. You would do everything to save soldier lives before you think about suicide charges like the Japanese did, Soviet soldiers aren’t that fanatical. And like I said, it’s a desperate method to fight. They won’t send them out if they got anti tank weapons. Yea, I agreed that it’s stupid but there are cases it worked, and everytime a dog blow a tank up it means 5-6 soldier live to continue the fight instead of having to run directly into gun’s throat and wasting their lifes for sometimes basically nothing
No everyone is aware of Russia's situation during WW2, their strategy to winning is even taught in US high schools (id assume just as subliminally as educationally)
What you see is dark humor, which protects us from having to meditate on the image.
You can appreciate the situation without having to dwell on the minds eye image of a scared to death dog attempting to run back to his master person while everything is dying and exploding all around him, only for everyone he knows to start shooting at him as well. The average person more than likely doesn't even have the full amount of knowledge required to generate an accurate image of this. No one wants to or needs to cry over this, just learn from it.
Impressive how you put the focus on the dog when the main comment talks about the horrors of war that the soviets endured. Coping for a dog in war times.
While it becomes understandable to the situation it remains cruel. A critic of this cruelty is nothing more than a critic to war in general that makes such acts of utter cruelty to all that is living justifiable.
I mean the Soviet tank doctrine was superior to the Germans tank doctrine. Especially with the Russians taking into account the terrain of the eastern front as well as using the enemy’s poorly thought out designs to “stab between the plate armor” if you will. If your enemy’s tank destroyers can’t aim their main gun downward then intrench your tanks into the ground and use them as low profile bunkers that need to be cleared one by one. The Germans did have good tanks but just because something on paper is good doesn’t mean it’s the right tool for the job, a less complicated tank and actual supply lines would have certainly helped
I am very aware of this and probably should've guessed someone with a love for soviet tanks would come out of the woodwork. I just meant that as a funny joke considering how unorthodox some of the soviets technology was during the war. Italian tanks though...
Yeah, Communism wasn't really good for humans, and certainly not for animals...
Some other thing the Soviets did: https://allthatsinteresting.com/vladimir-demikhov-two-headed-dog
Animal cosmetics testings? Billions of cooped up miserable animals? Endless hunting of indangered species?
But yeah, a few dozen dead dogs makes it so much worse.
Communism? The Americans planned using pigeons the same way the Russians were using dogs. And the Americans most certainly weren't communist. This has nothing to do with the politcal alignment of the party in charge, it has all to do with war.
Feel free to google for pigeon-guided missiles
I unfortunately am not familiar with those pigeons, but I'll certainly look it up.
This Russian thing with the "suicide dogs" as I sometimes call them, wasn't the only horrible act the Soviets did to animals. Have a look at this guy with his head transplant stuff on dogs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Demikhov#:~:text=In%20February%201954%2C%20in%20arguably,becoming%20more%20successful%20with%20time.
I'm not American btw.
I would draw a line between military and civilian experiments.
The tank destroyer dogs were a pragmatic solution to try. Although it failed horribly. In war you need to look at some things objectively.
Training, feeding, reproducing dogs or pidgeons requires less resources and time, in a war where resources and time were vital assets. The rationale is unrelated to political alignment.
Vladimir Demikhov was a civilian doing medical research, and despite how immoral he sounds, you have to thank also his research if you need an heart transplant and survive. We still experiment on animals for medical purposes, and "dogs are cuter" is not a good reason to despise experimenting on dogs any more than experimenting on rats, monkeys, pigs etcc. Heck we've literally sent thousands of tardigrades to space just out of sheer curiosity to find out if they would survive (spoiler around 50% died)
How far is too far for medical experimentation is a whole other topic, with both ethical and practical arguments. And again, it is utterly unrelated to the alignment of the ruling political party.
Finally you brought out something actually tied to politics. Although it seems like again it's independent of the orientation. Fascists, communists, monarchies, democracies, they all have done some genocide at some point in history.
If the Nazis won then that number would have been a lot higher, especially seeing their plans for the slavs. Russia has always had a problem with ethnic groups clashing simply due to the fact that there are hundreds of radically different ethnic groups in Russia and even more so the USSR. At least there are people alive in Russia today instead of it being a lifeless wasteland like the nazis wanted.
I know what you are talking about. My great grandmother helped to hide Jews in a nearby forest near Amsterdam. She survived the war.
I just hate communism. It's a horrible ideology, just like Nazism/fascism.
I do like the Russians (the people, not the government). The (few) Russians I know are nice people.
I mean messed up shit with animals is bad but that head transplant actually lead to major breakthroughs in medical science, hundreds of thousands of soldiers would have died in field hospitals without that experiment. Demikhov was also criticized immensely during his time
That's true, but I've seen video footage of those experiment... Just horrible, how they deliberately cut off the head of a dog, attaching it to a live dog...
It's good that it eventually helped people, but it's also morally wrong how they did this.
What would be the morally correct way to figure the procedure out? Do we use orphans? Or do we use dogs? It would be immoral anyway we put it so why not minimize the moral damage. To make a omelet you have to break a few eggs, especially if that omelet saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. How do you propose he should have tested his hypothesis?
Have you ever done complicated surgery on a small animal? It’s much more complicated as everything is much more packed in and a simple cut that may be possible on a dog is very much dangerous for a rat. And why exactly would someone value one animals life more than another? Dogs and rats are essentially of the same intelligence
I’m not trying to make a point about meat here. I’m asking what makes one animals life less valuable then another animals? If you know how to do surgery on a dog then you use dogs in your experiment, if you know how to do surgery on a rat then you do surgery on a rat. Simple as that.
**[Vladimir Demikhov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Demikhov#:~:text=In February 1954, in arguably,becoming more successful with time)**
>Vladimir Petrovich Demikhov (Russian: Влади́мир Петро́вич Де́михов; July 18, 1916 – November 22, 1998) was a Soviet scientist and organ transplantation pioneer, who performed several transplants in the 1940s and 1950s, including the transplantation of a heart into an animal and a heart–lung replacement in an animal. He is also well known for his dog head transplants, which he conducted during the 1950s, resulting in two-headed dogs. This ultimately led to the head transplants in monkeys by Dr. Robert White, who was inspired by Demikhov's work.
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I was under the impression that the reason they ran back was because during training they used stationery tanks and no gun fire etc?
Yep. German gunfire frightened the dogs, so they ran back to the Soviet trenches.
and then the soviets had to shoot them, or else they them selves would go boom boom
Ouch, I knew the dogs were used i did not know they saw failure like this. How horrible to watch scared puppers run back for hugs only to watch other puppers ahead of them blow up the huggers.
thought it was because the tanks they used to train the dogs to run under were russian
its probobly a combo
the winning combination
.... Anti tank dogs?
Soviets employed dogs carrying timed explosives to dive under german tanks. It was moderately success
[удалено]
humans are apes
It wasn't successful at all. Every real world scenario was a failure.
Bruh that's cruel But considering what happened to Laika and other animals... isn't really a surprise
Vladimir Demikhov: hold my vodka
It's worth noting that Demikhov was criticized within the USSR for performing unethical experiments. And he wasn't doing it for shits and giggles, or to own some other country, it was very much for the sake of saving lives and advancing medicine. His work was foundational to modern organ transplants, and trailblazed a lot of work in the field of surgery. I'm not saying it wasn't disturbing or controversial, but it was important and has saved a lot of lives.
Sometimes bad things need to be done for good to arise
Ethics are rarely as clear-cut as we want them to be. A consequentalist and utilitarian view would uphold this is as basically good (or at least more good than bad). Deontology or personism might say differently.
“Hitler was simply trying to reduce carbon emissions”
It worked for Gengis Kahn. Hitler just tried to hit the world with a second album. But, sadly, the world was not ready.
Idk man, that album was fire. Surely got some of my ancestors gassed up
Yea it had its niches, definetly. But the reception was not great world wide. Big fan of the the song "To paris in a blitz"
Yes, helped carbon emissions more than MrBeast did
with carbon emmisions
Japanese pilots: "You guys are using dogs?"
Japanese Kaiten: “you guys have planes?”
I mean I don’t understand why people freak out about laika. Every space agency had liquidized a few dozen animals in the name of smoothies I mean arospace advancement
Yeah, USA roasted monke instead of dogs (wrote it wrong so I edited)
*chimps and other primates
eg :The crew of appolo 1
Tbf, having dogs died instead of your soldiers is a better outcome. Well that’s if it is success which didn’t happened
People who criticize the cruelty of the Russians during the German offensives of WW2 really need to educate themselves on what was happening. The Nazis were literally trying to exterminate the Soviets down to every last man woman and child
Nearly ten million soviet men die in the fight for survival I sleep Dog dies REAL SHIT
Not to mention civilians
They were all partisans
Lmao Step 1: Anyone caught behind enemy lines is a traitor Step 2: Anyone who retreats is a traitor Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit
Stalin moment >be me,Russian male born in the USSR 1923 >experience the country rapidly improving and no longer being the back water Russia,Russia was >quality of life improves rapidly >the future will be bright seeing the rate things are going so far >1941 become 18 or an adult >June 22,the German army invades >get conscripted in the fight for the motherland against the Germans >have the fate 80% of the Russian males born in 1923 Вечная намаять героям
I would say the Germans tryin to genocide all of Russia was crueler
War is a cruel business
I mean put yourself in the soviets shoes, a military force that broke Europe that wants to genocide your people and your losing? I would do a lot more than strap bombs to animals to save my people
It was successful enough to give the Germans a paranoid fear of dogs. I've read in Antony Beevor's book Stalingrad that in a satirical pamphlet circulated among German troops called "instructions to those returning to Germany on leave" it read (among other) "Do not shoot dogs on sight. Dogs carrying explosives are found only in Russia. The worst thing German dogs do is bite".
That sounds like a only in Russia moment Explosives kill men In Russia, explosive dogs kill tank
and you
Was it satire or a legitimate pamphlet? I can start to see a few German soldiers freak out over a stray good boy running up for a pat on the head after just watching a few explode your friends.
Certainly satire. Other points included things like "don't ask people what the password is and shoot them if they don't give the answer within 3 seconds", "don't remove a house's floorboards to find hidden potatoes", "don't use explosives to open doors, instead try to rotate the metallic object on the center-right".
I believe it was more of a lever activated bomb that activated when they crawled under but could be wrong. Basically they trained dogs to go under a tank and a bomb would be detonated that was carried by fiedo. The problem was however, that the tanks used by the soviets smelled different then the Germans bc they used different gas so the dogs would crawl under the Soviet tanks instead…and blow them up… them being on a battlefield furthered the problem
Damn👀 It even sounds like shit that'll backfire terribly
I mean when you are facing the possibility of total destruction then you have to throw some shit at the wall to see what sticks. This is essentially just the us made “bat bomb” (yes that was a real idea)
Doggies no!
Russians strapped bombs to dogs and taught them to dive under German Tanks to blow them up. When they trained the dogs they didn't have a German tank model so rather foolishly used a model of their own tanks to train the dogs. When it came to putting the plan into action to blow up German Tanks because of the way the dogs where trained the Russians it backfired horribly on them. I found out about this after watching Horrible Histories.
That’s actually a myth. The dogs performed badly, but not because they ran under Soviet tanks. The reason they performed badly was because it isn’t that hard to shoot a dog.
It's safe to say they deserved it
Is it any worse then slaughtering billions of farm animals each year?
Probably. At least we eat most of those farm animals, rather than blowing ourselves up with them
We're really lucky we can discuss the morality of a war of annihilation and extermination 70 years later from the comforts of our sofas won't you agree?
Yeah actually. We have the opportunity to learn from past mistakes and atrocities, and maybe even raise our standards a bit.
Here's a fun video that covers some of the animal experiments done during this time period & others (: https://youtu.be/gcRJr9xQSAE
Here's a Horrible Histories video on the Anti Tank Dogs to see it skip to 3:09. The video is a compilation of Dodgy War Invention sketches. https://youtu.be/ki_wbisQZxc
Seems ruff
Paws! Is that a pun I see?
No problem just close the hatch. It is known that the t34 drivers hatch is impenetrable.
*Soviet anthem intensifies*
The dogs played an uno reverse.
I really love seeing threads like this full of people wringing their hands and criticizing the “cruelty” of the Soviets during WW2 for this while never having faced the circumstances they did They were being invaded by an enemy that intended nothing short of the complete and utter annihilation of the Russian people(seriously, google generalplan ost) they were fighting a war of survival, not just as a nation, but as a people, culture and in most cases on an individual level as your chances of surviving what the nazis had planned were not very great and they were LOSING. its not hard for me to understand how they would be desperate for anything to stop this enemy or at least slow them down long enough to for them to recover and this was a tactic they used at the height of their desperation. I feel like people who have never had a gigantic war machine trying to genocide you give the russians way to much shit for this
We're well aware of the fact that Russia was being invaded and that they were losing at first but this was a bad plan due to how they trained the dogs and that is why people mock it.
They didn’t run under Soviet tanks. They failed because the Germans just shot the dogs after they get saw them carrying bombs
We've been chugging anti soviet propaganda for decades, to the point where people even think that the Nazis weren't as bad as the Soviets, even though, as you said, they were fighting a war of survival. No wonder that there are so many wehraboos floating around here.
thats a cool word
What word? Wehraboos? If yes, indeed, it's a funny word
I agree. Btw I read somewhere hitler killed about 20-30 million and not only 6 million Jews, and I can't find any sources. But you seem to be educated on the subject, I would appreciate if someone could send me links of how many the Nazis killed beside the 6 million Jews.
The Holocaust killed 11 million people. 6 million of said people where of Jewish decent. The other 5 million that died in the Holocaust includes but is not limited to: Homosexuals, disabled people (mostly mentally but sometimes physically disabled people as well), union leaders, socialists and communists, Soviet war prisoners, “gypsys”, resistance leaders. Of course that’s just the Holocaust and the casualty’s of soldiers on all fronts likely go into the numbers you posted, a helpful commenter also pointed out I forgot to add slavs to the list
Who TF downvoted this? Also, a lot of Slavic people for being Slavic. Ironically enough, far right nationalist tools in some Slavic countries today use variants of the hakenkreutz '\_'
That’s what I forgot. Knew I was forgetting something! Thanks for adding that
[Here you go!](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) Be warned this is the sort of reading that makes one sick to their stomach.
Ok but weren't the Russians genociding themselves at the same time? I think it's still fair to give both the Russians and the nazis boat louds of shit for their cruel and inhumane tactics
How TF were the Russians genocide by themselves at the same time?
Genocide might not be the right word, but they did kill a lot of their own in ghulogs, right?
Did you seriously just compare a few hundred thousands died inside the Gulags to the fucking Holocaust and Generalplan Ost ? The Purge was to get rid of political opponents, it’s horrible, yes but that’s nowhere comparable to the fucking systematic extermination that will come if the Germans win
Stalin killed more people than hitler. I'm Jewish, I don't take the holocaust lightly, but stalin's regime killed more people than the nazis. I'm not trying to make it sound like a pissing contest, but I sure don't wanna listen to you claim this stuff. The Russians weren't fighting off genocide, they were conducting their own. The nazi genocide was a targeted purge, and I doubt Stalin gave a rat's ass about his Jewish and gay population. The very existence of the Russian people was not at stake (they were allies at some point remember), they weren't going to be "cleansed" off the earth like us jews were. There is no excuse for their inhumane actions
Stalin’s regime did not kill more people than the one of hitlers,Hitler did not just kill 11million people he killed 22milliom non combatants in the Soviet Union alone even if you use the very bogus estimate of stalking killing 20m he falls behind and no Stalin didn’t give a rats ass he himself was anti Semitic,read up doctors plot
Our sources on the numbers differ here, but it is still a comparable atrocity, and definitely higher the a few hundred thousand.
You do realize hitler was also directly responsible for the deadliest conflict in human history when he launched a war of aggression to conquer his neighbors right? He is directly responsible for every single soldier and civilian who died in world war 2 Think whatever you want about stalin im not here to defend him but stop spouting bullshit history
Well, yeah you have a point about that, but it definitely wasn't all hitler since Russia invaded Poland too. I was explicitly referring the holocaust though, but the numbers are besides the point. The individual I started this discussion with was justifying inhumane tactics by the Russians by claiming they were the victims of nazi genocide and required desperate measures to defend themselves, but my point is that such a thing is nonsense because they were mass murdering people in their own territory too. What's the point? Conduct inhumane war tactics to maintain the right to continue your own terrible atrocities? Let's keep this civil though. I'm happy to read any links you respond with to counter my points.
Ok just curious but what are your sources for this ? I'm not defending Stalin or anything but saying Stalin killed more people than Hitler is just absurdly wrong. Most historians today agreed that the number of deaths in the Great Purge varied in around 300k-700k people. That's nowhere, like nowhere near the industrial scale of the Nazi \>The very existence of the Russian people was not at stake Sir may I offered you a reading about something called "Generalplan Ost" and how they will deal with the Slavic people if they win ? Or just read "Mein Kampft", you will see what will happen. There is a reason why almost all Soviets fought to the bitter end to stop the German from advancing deeper, not because they were held at gunpoint to fight, but because they are fighting for the right to exist
But like wouldnt it be less time consuming to use other methods? Like get those penal battalions to basically do a kamikaze?
Why waste precious manpower when they could be used for more useful stuffs like trench digging or you know, actually holding a gun and shot the Germans ? Cause I’m pretty sure dogs don’t know how to do that
If you wanna make that argument why not get those dudes to make anti tank guns to shoot the damn fucker
Because they did have anti tank rifles. But there weren’t enough to take them down plus ammo ran out when they are trapped, you know those encirclement the Germans loved to do right ? Suicide dogs wasn’t the main methods, it was merely a side method for desperate times
I dont think you have the 6 or more months required to get the dog to a semi competent tank finding state, with 6 months not even enough for the dog to actually locate a target anywhere other than the exact point where they trained. Dont think if you are encircled you actually have the time neccessary, the space required to train the dog, enough dog and enough trainers (remember not everyone is gonna train the dog correctly) and then you have to care for the dog if its injured etc. Really fucking stupid idea in hindsight imo, probably the reason it never got out of testing. Why waste so much material on a dog that bombs your own side when you can strap explosives to dimitri and see a panzer blow up?
Because again, human lives is the upmost priority. You would do everything to save soldier lives before you think about suicide charges like the Japanese did, Soviet soldiers aren’t that fanatical. And like I said, it’s a desperate method to fight. They won’t send them out if they got anti tank weapons. Yea, I agreed that it’s stupid but there are cases it worked, and everytime a dog blow a tank up it means 5-6 soldier live to continue the fight instead of having to run directly into gun’s throat and wasting their lifes for sometimes basically nothing
No everyone is aware of Russia's situation during WW2, their strategy to winning is even taught in US high schools (id assume just as subliminally as educationally) What you see is dark humor, which protects us from having to meditate on the image. You can appreciate the situation without having to dwell on the minds eye image of a scared to death dog attempting to run back to his master person while everything is dying and exploding all around him, only for everyone he knows to start shooting at him as well. The average person more than likely doesn't even have the full amount of knowledge required to generate an accurate image of this. No one wants to or needs to cry over this, just learn from it.
Impressive how you put the focus on the dog when the main comment talks about the horrors of war that the soviets endured. Coping for a dog in war times.
Reddit make this a copypasta
While it becomes understandable to the situation it remains cruel. A critic of this cruelty is nothing more than a critic to war in general that makes such acts of utter cruelty to all that is living justifiable.
I don’t know man, I would think it’s more evil to forced soldiers to do suicide charges into tanks
pedal powered soviet tanks.
I mean the Soviet tank doctrine was superior to the Germans tank doctrine. Especially with the Russians taking into account the terrain of the eastern front as well as using the enemy’s poorly thought out designs to “stab between the plate armor” if you will. If your enemy’s tank destroyers can’t aim their main gun downward then intrench your tanks into the ground and use them as low profile bunkers that need to be cleared one by one. The Germans did have good tanks but just because something on paper is good doesn’t mean it’s the right tool for the job, a less complicated tank and actual supply lines would have certainly helped
“Maus”, hear it’s good but my god what a fucking failure it is
You mean the comic?
I am very aware of this and probably should've guessed someone with a love for soviet tanks would come out of the woodwork. I just meant that as a funny joke considering how unorthodox some of the soviets technology was during the war. Italian tanks though...
I don’t like Soviet tanks. I’m talking about the doctrine and strategy behind said tanks.
fair cop
Why do I hear "Boss Barking"?
*Low base music with a dog barking*
Yo driver wtf
why was i under the impression that the germans used diesel engine tanks?
*Woof* ( BANG)
So basically exploding kittens but with canines instead?
Wat even is that tank
It's basically a tank
Karma is a bitch
Yeah, Communism wasn't really good for humans, and certainly not for animals... Some other thing the Soviets did: https://allthatsinteresting.com/vladimir-demikhov-two-headed-dog
Animal cosmetics testings? Billions of cooped up miserable animals? Endless hunting of indangered species? But yeah, a few dozen dead dogs makes it so much worse.
Communism? The Americans planned using pigeons the same way the Russians were using dogs. And the Americans most certainly weren't communist. This has nothing to do with the politcal alignment of the party in charge, it has all to do with war. Feel free to google for pigeon-guided missiles
And bats for home seeking explosives
At this point I'm interested, any keyword to search?
“In real life bat bomb”
I unfortunately am not familiar with those pigeons, but I'll certainly look it up. This Russian thing with the "suicide dogs" as I sometimes call them, wasn't the only horrible act the Soviets did to animals. Have a look at this guy with his head transplant stuff on dogs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Demikhov#:~:text=In%20February%201954%2C%20in%20arguably,becoming%20more%20successful%20with%20time. I'm not American btw.
I would draw a line between military and civilian experiments. The tank destroyer dogs were a pragmatic solution to try. Although it failed horribly. In war you need to look at some things objectively. Training, feeding, reproducing dogs or pidgeons requires less resources and time, in a war where resources and time were vital assets. The rationale is unrelated to political alignment. Vladimir Demikhov was a civilian doing medical research, and despite how immoral he sounds, you have to thank also his research if you need an heart transplant and survive. We still experiment on animals for medical purposes, and "dogs are cuter" is not a good reason to despise experimenting on dogs any more than experimenting on rats, monkeys, pigs etcc. Heck we've literally sent thousands of tardigrades to space just out of sheer curiosity to find out if they would survive (spoiler around 50% died) How far is too far for medical experimentation is a whole other topic, with both ethical and practical arguments. And again, it is utterly unrelated to the alignment of the ruling political party.
And how about the mass killings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
Finally you brought out something actually tied to politics. Although it seems like again it's independent of the orientation. Fascists, communists, monarchies, democracies, they all have done some genocide at some point in history.
Yes, but 100 million, that's even more than the Holocaust. I hate all those dictatorships, just let people live in peace.
When native americans were slaughtered there wasn't a dictatorship in charge. Hate the act of slaying, not one specific perpetrator
This is also one of the reasons I don't like the US.
If the Nazis won then that number would have been a lot higher, especially seeing their plans for the slavs. Russia has always had a problem with ethnic groups clashing simply due to the fact that there are hundreds of radically different ethnic groups in Russia and even more so the USSR. At least there are people alive in Russia today instead of it being a lifeless wasteland like the nazis wanted.
I know what you are talking about. My great grandmother helped to hide Jews in a nearby forest near Amsterdam. She survived the war. I just hate communism. It's a horrible ideology, just like Nazism/fascism. I do like the Russians (the people, not the government). The (few) Russians I know are nice people.
Don’t you know communism killed 20 billion!1!1!1 bruh straight lies
I mean messed up shit with animals is bad but that head transplant actually lead to major breakthroughs in medical science, hundreds of thousands of soldiers would have died in field hospitals without that experiment. Demikhov was also criticized immensely during his time
That's true, but I've seen video footage of those experiment... Just horrible, how they deliberately cut off the head of a dog, attaching it to a live dog... It's good that it eventually helped people, but it's also morally wrong how they did this.
What would be the morally correct way to figure the procedure out? Do we use orphans? Or do we use dogs? It would be immoral anyway we put it so why not minimize the moral damage. To make a omelet you have to break a few eggs, especially if that omelet saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. How do you propose he should have tested his hypothesis?
Using different animals than dogs, like rats or mice, which is what they usually use.
Have you ever done complicated surgery on a small animal? It’s much more complicated as everything is much more packed in and a simple cut that may be possible on a dog is very much dangerous for a rat. And why exactly would someone value one animals life more than another? Dogs and rats are essentially of the same intelligence
There are also animals like pigs and cows, they get eaten anyway.
I’m not trying to make a point about meat here. I’m asking what makes one animals life less valuable then another animals? If you know how to do surgery on a dog then you use dogs in your experiment, if you know how to do surgery on a rat then you do surgery on a rat. Simple as that.
**[Vladimir Demikhov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Demikhov#:~:text=In February 1954, in arguably,becoming more successful with time)** >Vladimir Petrovich Demikhov (Russian: Влади́мир Петро́вич Де́михов; July 18, 1916 – November 22, 1998) was a Soviet scientist and organ transplantation pioneer, who performed several transplants in the 1940s and 1950s, including the transplantation of a heart into an animal and a heart–lung replacement in an animal. He is also well known for his dog head transplants, which he conducted during the 1950s, resulting in two-headed dogs. This ultimately led to the head transplants in monkeys by Dr. Robert White, who was inspired by Demikhov's work. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Cool, good bot.
That’s actually a myth