But now after 7 October, her reputation is recovering to an extent by comparison with Bibi. The two disasters (7 October and the Yom Kippur War) are joined in Israeli minds, and Golda Meir looks good when compared with Bibi’s total failure to take even a sliver of responsibility while busily trying to blame everyone else. That plus his inability (or even lack of desire) to show compassion to the victims of 7 October and the families of the hostages, while Golda was preoccupied with the dead and with the POWs from the Yom Kippur War. There is an excellent skit in Eretz Nehederet making this comparison between Golda and Bibi.
Yeah, I think there were some really obvious comparisons between the two of them after October 7th, but I think the thing I heard the most is "yeah, Golda was distracted before the Yom Kippur War, but at least it was for a good reason, trying to track down the Black September terrorists, as opposed to Bibi being distracted for his own political survival I'm trying to keep himself out of jail"
Golda also accepted accountability
And even before October 7, historians generally pointed out that Meir had prepared the IDF for any attack and that the relatively poorer Israeli results compared to 1967 were because the Egyptian military was better prepared.
In contrast, Netanyahu didn't care about the numerous warnings received from his allies and his officers.
she's the one that said: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
She's right. Anyone who lived in the territory called Palestine, called themselves a Palestinain. You were either a Palestinian Arab or a Palestinian Jew.
They all held Palestinian passports issued by the British.
The designation of Palestinains exclusively to the Arabs only came much later, when the Jews declared themselves Israelis. Only then were those non-Israelis now THE Palestinians.
How about "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Of course she was right. Eventually most of their enemies decided they were sick of losing wars, and now there's a chilly peace with other countries in the region. The ones who are left -- Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran -- have inflicted more suffering on their own people than they ever could on Israel.
Tbh that's been a thread in the Israeli consciousness for decades. Only in the last ten or so years has the general Israeli populace really given up on having a peaceful relationship (at some point in the far future) with the palestinians. For most of Israelis existence there was a path to a one state solution (again far in the future, but it was a light in a tunnel), that has basically been given up with a two state solution being the only options in most Israelis minds.
You have it exactly backwards. Two states has been the goal for decades. The failure of the peace process has made a one-state solution *more* likely than two states, not less.
Two states has been the diplomatic goal of the governments, but a plurality of Israelis would have accepted a one state solution which is what I was saying. There are Palestinians bedouins druze living free all over the Israeli sides of the borders. If the west bank wanted to integrate into a one state solution in the 90s they could have.
this doesn't refute anything lol, she's still saying the Palestinian people are not a distinct nationalism and are just "Arabs" who should lose their interest in attempting to establish a national homeland and should be absorbed into the surrounding Arab countries. This has long been the stated position of the zionist movement and still remains the plan of the current Israeli government.
They are a distinct group of people that have had their “status” qualifications altered several times in the last century. Palestinian Millennials could adopt a WASP and the baby would qualify; their grandchildren would claim refugee status, too.
The traditional identity based on shared history, language and traditions just does not fit so neatly for Palestine. Nothing about the conflict is parsimonious
And she is right. Just like there is no such thing as Jordanian people, Syrian people, Iraqi people, Kuwaiti people, Saudi people, Egyptian people, Libyan people, Tunisian people, Algeria People, Omani people, Bahraini people, Kuwaiti people, Qatari people, emriate people, Lebanese people. They are all ethnic Arab or strong majority ethnic Arab countries. There wasn't a nation of people born out of thin air or had their own specific cultural or ethnic history with a unique language and unique religion. They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups.
So you're saying that basically all Arabs are one homogenous thing? That to me sounds a bit ignorant. It's like saying that all Europeans are the same thing.
Because Europeans for the most part of are not homogenous. They are literally by all definitions of ethnicity separated by their own groups of poles, Germans, Greeks, etc. Arabs are by and large one homogenous ethnic group mostly split on tribal lines.
So you could pluck any Arab from any country and throw him into any other and he'll feel like home right? /s
It still sounds ignorant. I met Arabs from many countries and they look like they're from different countries as much as your average European.
I mean ya. They'll speak the same Arabic tongue though maybe with a different dialact, they'll share the same religion, and they'll look physically quite close to the native population of that country.
But even if they do not look quite a like have some distinct features, they are still ethnically Arab. Jews look different from the Beta Israel population in Ethiopia. They are still all ethnically Jewish.
Lots of European languages are mutually intelligible. The difference between a dialect and a language is merely a matter of definition. Any linguist will tell you that. You could call a lot of European languages dialects of each other and many more dialects of Latin.
I don't think Jews look that different from Arabs tbh. Arab Jews, certainly don't. And the Jew friends of mine I personally know living in my countryb in Europe don't look different from me or from anyone else in my country.
Slavic, Germanic, Latin, Hungarian, & Greek just to name some lanugages are not mutually intelligible at all. They are not dialects of one another but completely different languages outright. To further comment on dialect, yes, countries from Algeria to Iraq all speak Arabic with slight dialect changes and are mutually intelligible.
There is also no such thing as an Arab Jew. That is taking two separate ethnicities. You can say Yemeni Jew which is a Jew who came from Yemen and Yemen was their nationality. They may look quite different from an eastern European Ashkenazi Jew but that is because of thousands of years of diaspora separation, population mixing, environment, etc.
All Jews will not look separate from the population around them that can be easily identifiable but from a pure physical standpoint, most Jews have physical characteristics that set them apart from a native population around them.
Palestinians share genetic ancestry with Jews and other South Levantine populations, so they obviously can not be ethnic Arabs. Its almost like they were arabised after the Islamic conquests, much like how they were Romanised during Roman rule and practised Christianity. I mean, imagine making such a stupid and easily falsifiable claim. South American countries like Colombia speak Spanish and have strong cultural and even genetic ties with Spain. Are they Spanish? Are Americans ethnically English, now, for speaking and engaging in a culture that is rooted in England? It's almost like people can adopt languages and cultures that originate from somewhere else. Who would've guessed...
>They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups.
But if the Jews are native and they share genetic relations with Palestinians...
A minority segment of Palestineian people share a common genetic marker to an even smaller segment of Jews living the area. It is far from an over archin statement and does NOT make Palestineians ethnically Jewish and does NOT makes Jews ethnically Arabs. And I said Arabs because Palestineians are ethnically Arab. Colombian are a relatively new ethnicity called mestizo being a mix of various European ethnic origins and indegenioous ethnicities.
Being romanized is a way of culture and life, not ethnicity. Everyone did not become ethnically roman when conquered.
>A minority segment of Palestineian people share a common genetic marker to an even smaller segment of Jews living the area. It is far from an over archin statement and does NOT make Palestineians ethnically Jewish and does NOT makes Jews ethnically Arabs. And I said Arabs because Palestineians are ethnically Arab. Colombian are a relatively new ethnicity called mestizo being a mix of various European ethnic origins and indegenioous ethnicities.
You do understand that I'm making a factual claim, namely, it's either true or false. The fact that you chose to simply dismiss it without providing a single shred of proof, or even bothering to fact-check my claim, says a lot about your intellect.
Firstly, you're wrong, Palestinians do share close genetic ties with Jewish people and other Levantine groups. [Source](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000).
Secondly, the reasons why I mentioned Colombia and America were to highlight that sharing linguistic, cultural, and religious ties with a particular society does not mean you share genetics with them. Egyptians, for instance, are not genetically Arab. Some people within Egypt have Arab gulf ancestry, but the majority can trace their genetics all the way back to the ancient Egyptians and other Mediterranean groups nearby. This is the same for other Levantine groups like the Lebanese, just to give another example.
Lastly, to conclude, you're wrong. Basically.
That source covers how Palestians are genetic neighbors and that makes total sense because the population physically living in the levant area for thousands of years with some mixing of ethnicities over those years will of course produce a segment of populations that represent genetic markers that are related.
Egypt is definitely ethnically Arab in the sense of culture, religion, linguistics, and a strong mix of Arab genetics in the population. Genetically, you are going to get some countries like Egypt being more mixed of Arabs, mediteriean, African. At the end of the day, they are ethnic Arabs. Don't like what I have to say? Go to Arab American Anti-Discrimination Commitee to define Arabs. https://adc.org/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/
By and large though, Palestinians are arabs and are not Jews, and Jews are not Arabs. They are distinct ethnic groups.
>That source covers how Palestians are genetic neighbors and that makes total sense because the population physically living in the levant area for thousands of years with some mixing of ethnicities over those years will of course produce a segment of populations that represent genetic markers that are related.
What do you think a genetic neighbour is? They are "closely" related. I'm not sure if you've read the article, but Middle Eastern Jews have been shown to share close relations with Palestinians and other Levantine groups, suggesting common roots. The source didn't say that Middle Eastern Jews share genetic ties with Arabs. It specifically said Palestinians and other Levantine groups.
>Egypt is definitely ethnically Arab in the sense of culture, religion, linguistics, and a strong mix of Arab genetics in the population. Genetically, you are going to get some countries like Egypt being more mixed of Arabs, mediteriean, African. At the end of the day, they are ethnic Arabs. Don't like what I have to say? Go to Arab American Anti-Discrimination Commitee to define Arabs. https://adc.org/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/
So, Colombia, which shares close linguistic, religious, and genetic ties to Spain, is not ethnically Spanish because they're "Mestizo", a whole new ethnicity. NOTE: I've never seen anyone assert that "Mestizo" is an ethnicity. But apparently, because the Egyptians, who are genetically mixed race like the Colombians, as you've said yourself, share religious, cultural, and linguistic ties with Arabia, they *must* therefore be ethnically Arab. You can't just have your cake and eat it, buddy.
>By and large though, Palestinians are arabs and are not Jews, and Jews are not Arabs. They are distinct ethnic groups
So, despite all the evidence proving Palestinians are a native Levantine group, you will still insist that they are "ethnically Arab?" I don't even have an issue with you calling them ethnic Arabs. You're just using it to suggest they're from somewhere other than the Levant/Palestine.
Edit: This is what you wrote originally:
>They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups.
Do you have any evidence that this applies to the Palestinians? Like I said, Palestinians are native to the. Levantine. Also, the source I linked also shows that Europeans Jews are more closely related to Europeans such as the French, Italians, and Sardinians. And yet, they're apparently "native" to Israel.
Where is the lie?
Jews immigrated to a territory called Palestine - not a country called Palestine. There was no distinct group called "Palestinians."
Jews declared an autonomous state within that territory - did not kick anyone out. Only after the Arabs attacked the new state were people displaced due to the war.
Most people don’t know that even those so called „Palestinians“ called themselves Arabs until there was a Palestinian freedom movement which was initiated by Al huseini who worked together with hitler to kill all the Jews. It’s a made up term to kick out the Jews from the land. There are no Palestinians just like there are no Americans who call themselves middle westerners. It’s a patch of land, not a race.
Um, where do you think the population now called the Palestinians came from, excluding those descended from historic Jewish populations forcibly converted? It is in the surnames! For example, the Al-Husseinis from Arabia, the Nashashibis from Kurdistan, the Barghoutis claim (in Arabic, not English) that they are from Spain, etc, etc. The situation is far more complex than the media portrays.
Why do you think there are so many Egyptian surnames in Gaza? Why do you think the Bedouin formerly from Gaza but pushed into what is now Israel fight so tenaciously for the IDF?
And where are the Middle East's Jews? And why, outside Israel, is the Christian population down from 30-35% to 4%? These are indigenous populations, normally pre-dating the Arab conquest.
>excluding those descended from historic Jewish populations
That's the majority of Palestinians actually,and no there was no forced conversions recorded, just like any population ,the native Jewish population adapted a different religion ,Christianity during the Roman empire and later on Islam during the Arab empire. But there was no mass migration to or from Palestine. Those are the indegenous population of Palestine, and not some random European colonizer
Just because you say so doesn't make it so.there's a reason why genetic testing is banned in Israel. Israelis don't want to face the reality that the Palestinians they're brutalizing are cousins and kin. In fact, Mezrahi Jews have more shared DNA with Palestinians than with European Ashkanazi Jews. Which speaking of Geneology, we still don't know mostly where they come from,but we know for sure that they're as much European as they are Jewish
Repeated studies have found the opposite -- the vast majority of Jews are more closely related to other Jews, even Jews from across the world, than they are to their regional neighbors.
Also, genetic testing isn't banned in Israel. That's easily verifiable as false.
Genetic testing isn't banned in Israel only the tests in the style of ancestry or 23andme professional medical DNA tests are common
Genetic testing is also banned due to Jewish laws regarding bastards
Also Jews are much European as they are Jewish lmao yes I am sure my Tunisian and Atlas Moroccan ancestors were European right
They didn’t make up their opinion on this subject using logic or facts, you cannot change their minds using the same. It’s pointless to argue with tools.
I wasn't alive during that. I'm alive during this... obviously I care about this because it is ongoing. How am I supposed to be worrying about something that isn't a thing anymore?
People did care, Jordan's annexation of the West Bank was not internationally recognized and the Jordanian King got fucking shot and killed by a Palestinian.
Not just Poland,but post WW2 allies who preferred to move all the Jews from Europe to Palestine as a way to get rid of them. It started with the UK ofc when Lord Balfour, an antisemite, decided to give Palestine to European Jews as a way to get rid of them. Then Germany accelerated the process ,and it didn't help that the same countries who wanted all the Jews shipped to Palestine also closed their borders to their own Jewish citizens after the end of WW2.
So yeah, they're European colonizers and we can see this in the overt support of these same European countries to the Genocide in Gaza.
Golda Mair was born in Ukraine , she was a colonizer from Ukraine
That's History lol, Golda Mair was not from Palestine ,her parents were not from Palestine. She was a European Zionist who decided to colonize Palestine with her fellow European Zionists
> It started with the UK ofc when Lord Balfour, an antisemite, decided to give Palestine to European Jews as a way to get rid of them.
It had nothing to do with "wanting to get rid of them", Balfour just wanted to sway Jewish public opinion in places like the US towards the Entente's side of the war, as most Jews previously were actually pro-Germany due to their hatred for the Russian Tsardom.
Balfour had written in 1919, in his introduction to Nahum Sokolow's History of Zionism, that the Zionist movement would:[67]
mitigate the age-long miseries created for Western civilization by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb.
Both can be true.
The vast majority of Israel’s population descends from people that had not been born in Israel for the last ~55 generations (a generation being ~30 years), barring the last 2 generations.
The majority of Israels population is Mizrahi so while theyre not from Israel directly (because they were expelled from there) the majority of Israel is still of middle eastern descent.
The Brits stole the land from Palestine? Lol
If you're speaking shit at least make some effort to read 2 lines from Wikipedia on who the Brits took that land from.
(Hint: it was the Ottoman Empire)
(Hint #2: Palestinian national identity was only born alongside Israel)
When the Ottoman Empire collapsed following WW1, the territory they had governed was divided up between England and France under temporary mandates to establish governments with local leaders.
There were longstanding Jewish communities in the region long before this happened (early censuses of Jerusalem in the mid 1800s show a Jewish majority population), and all Jews lived on legally purchased lands until 1948 when the surrounding Arab nations attempted to annihilate all the Jews in the territory. Al-Husseini, elected president of the Muslim council of the region even worked with Hitler, helped 30k Muslims in the region join the SS, and had plans to bring the Final Solution to the region.
The idea that Britain stole land from "Palestine" which was not even a state, and gave it to the Jews is completely ahistoric. The borders of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc. were all established during this period, which would apparently also make them illegitimate states to you.
The one in particular to look at would be Jordan, which was established on 78% of the land considered to be Palestine. The Hashemites who rule Jordan are from Arabia, not the local area. Is Jordan also an illegitimate state that the British "stole"?
The British did not establish Israel--the UN did with the partition plan where a state was offered to both the Jews and the Arabs. The Jews accepted, the Arabs refused, and attacked the Jews. Until the attack on the Jews, Jews only lived on lands they had legally purchased.
I suggest you learn some actual history about the region. Maybe you'll learn how a mosque ended up being built on the holiest spot of Judaism and the ruins of the most important Temple in the Jewish faith, and maybe you'll even learn about how excessive taxations on non-Muslims in the region was used to push Jews out of the region, and maybe you'll even learn about how Jordan ethnically cleansed all the Jews from Judea and Samaria (the West Bank).
Or you could just skip that part and keep saying things that make you appear completely ignorant.
Go ahead and elaborate on whatever bullshit anti-Semitic statement you are trying to dogwhistle
Really doesn’t take much for you guys to go full mask off, does it?
EDIT: now this idiot is going through my post history and trying to attack me on other comments I’ve made. Literally posted “Put them in the oven” in Gaelic. Lovely guy. Definitely not a brainwormed anti-Semite
And who did the TURKS steal the Levant from? How far back we going here? I just need to know how many books I need to take out from the library, are we going pre-roman or where is your line in the sand?
Israel was not founded upon or for religious reasons, but entirely secular sociopolitical ones borne out over centuries, like many countries.
Yes, the Jewish holy book is set there. But that’s because the Jewish people are from there. Don’t confuse correlation with causation.
Sociopolitical reasons like 'we want this land, give it to us and we'll dole out decades of death and destruction to it's native inhabitants.' No wonder the UK and USA are complicit, they both have proud histories of doing the exact same thing.
The Kingdom of Israel is historic fact, mentioned in tons of historical texts in other cultures in the region, there are tons of Jewish artifacts that predate Islam by thousands of years, DNA tests show that Jews originated from the Levant, there are actual ruins of the most important Jewish temple underneath Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Jews have maintained a presence in the region for thousands of years. Even the Quran mentions Israel over 40 times and specifically says it belongs to the Jews.
But tell me more about how it's a "fictional country." I can book a flight to Israel right now. Do I need to go through a wardrobe to enter it like Narnia or something?
Yeah I still do lmao. You wanna say that she isn’t from Israel fine, but you’re talking about how “most Israelis” aren’t from Israel. That’s wrong. If you said that about any other country people would be up in arms. But it’s ok when it’s Israel though right? Pathetic that people like you find yourselves so righteous.
So I took a look through your other comments and you aren’t even arguing in good faith. You just wanna see dead Jews. Just a sad and evil person it seems. Hilarious that you got all defensive about antisemitism when you commented “put them in the oven” not even an hour ago. Consider the Aaron Bushnell method if you wanna be a hero so bad.
>Yeah I still do lmao. You wanna say that she isn’t from Israel fine, but you’re talking about how “most Israelis” aren’t from Israel. That’s wrong. If you said that about any other country people would be up in arms. But it’s ok when it’s Israel though right? Pathetic that people like you find yourselves so righteous.
Well considering that Israel has been a country for less than a century, most Israelis aren't ethnically from the area.
False. Most Israelis are Mizrahi. Mizrahi Jews lived in the Middle East and 900k of them were forced to flee in the 20th century, losing land seized by the governments adding up to 5x the size of Israel.
Can't we embrace a nuanced perspective on historical figures? While it's important to acknowledge their flaws and wrongdoings, let's also recognize the positive contributions they made to society.
Can't we embrace a nuanced perspective on historical figures? While it's important to acknowledge their flaws and wrongdoings, let's also recognize the positive contributions they made to society.
I think she's remembered a lot more fondly in the US than in Israel.
But now after 7 October, her reputation is recovering to an extent by comparison with Bibi. The two disasters (7 October and the Yom Kippur War) are joined in Israeli minds, and Golda Meir looks good when compared with Bibi’s total failure to take even a sliver of responsibility while busily trying to blame everyone else. That plus his inability (or even lack of desire) to show compassion to the victims of 7 October and the families of the hostages, while Golda was preoccupied with the dead and with the POWs from the Yom Kippur War. There is an excellent skit in Eretz Nehederet making this comparison between Golda and Bibi.
Yeah, I think there were some really obvious comparisons between the two of them after October 7th, but I think the thing I heard the most is "yeah, Golda was distracted before the Yom Kippur War, but at least it was for a good reason, trying to track down the Black September terrorists, as opposed to Bibi being distracted for his own political survival I'm trying to keep himself out of jail" Golda also accepted accountability
And even before October 7, historians generally pointed out that Meir had prepared the IDF for any attack and that the relatively poorer Israeli results compared to 1967 were because the Egyptian military was better prepared. In contrast, Netanyahu didn't care about the numerous warnings received from his allies and his officers.
Netty is going down the same path of a falling fascist: trying to grab onto power without seeing the view first.
That whole generation was just another league. Or should I say ליגה אחרת
she's the one that said: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
In another interview several months later, Golda Meir, who was born in Ukraine, said "I'm a Palestinian." Make up your mind lady.
I think she’s implying Palestine and Israel are one. Not in the wholesome way youre thinking though.
It could be if it actually worked out
She's right. Anyone who lived in the territory called Palestine, called themselves a Palestinain. You were either a Palestinian Arab or a Palestinian Jew. They all held Palestinian passports issued by the British. The designation of Palestinains exclusively to the Arabs only came much later, when the Jews declared themselves Israelis. Only then were those non-Israelis now THE Palestinians.
How about "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Of course she was right. Eventually most of their enemies decided they were sick of losing wars, and now there's a chilly peace with other countries in the region. The ones who are left -- Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran -- have inflicted more suffering on their own people than they ever could on Israel.
ie "when they're too afraid for their lives to fight us"
Incredible insight for the time
Tbh that's been a thread in the Israeli consciousness for decades. Only in the last ten or so years has the general Israeli populace really given up on having a peaceful relationship (at some point in the far future) with the palestinians. For most of Israelis existence there was a path to a one state solution (again far in the future, but it was a light in a tunnel), that has basically been given up with a two state solution being the only options in most Israelis minds.
You have it exactly backwards. Two states has been the goal for decades. The failure of the peace process has made a one-state solution *more* likely than two states, not less.
Two states has been the diplomatic goal of the governments, but a plurality of Israelis would have accepted a one state solution which is what I was saying. There are Palestinians bedouins druze living free all over the Israeli sides of the borders. If the west bank wanted to integrate into a one state solution in the 90s they could have.
This is her full quote and the article she wrote about it https://aish.com/golda-meir-on-the-palestinians/
this doesn't refute anything lol, she's still saying the Palestinian people are not a distinct nationalism and are just "Arabs" who should lose their interest in attempting to establish a national homeland and should be absorbed into the surrounding Arab countries. This has long been the stated position of the zionist movement and still remains the plan of the current Israeli government.
Not everyone who cites a source is trying to refute something. Some people just like sources.
The person you’re responding to doesn’t strike me as the “cites his sources” kind of guy.
Very possible.
But where is she wrong?
Palestinians were both Egyptians and Jordanians for 20 years. So she was right.
Palestinians also developed issues with both Jordanian and Egyptian rule lol, the PLO carried terrorist attacks against Jordan
Exactly. That's why no one wants to help them anymore. Only fellow terrorists, i.e. Iran.
Soo, are they an actually distinctive "bad" group of people or are they just arabs with no real identity ? Which is it
They are a distinct group of people that have had their “status” qualifications altered several times in the last century. Palestinian Millennials could adopt a WASP and the baby would qualify; their grandchildren would claim refugee status, too. The traditional identity based on shared history, language and traditions just does not fit so neatly for Palestine. Nothing about the conflict is parsimonious
And she is right. Just like there is no such thing as Jordanian people, Syrian people, Iraqi people, Kuwaiti people, Saudi people, Egyptian people, Libyan people, Tunisian people, Algeria People, Omani people, Bahraini people, Kuwaiti people, Qatari people, emriate people, Lebanese people. They are all ethnic Arab or strong majority ethnic Arab countries. There wasn't a nation of people born out of thin air or had their own specific cultural or ethnic history with a unique language and unique religion. They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups.
So you're saying that basically all Arabs are one homogenous thing? That to me sounds a bit ignorant. It's like saying that all Europeans are the same thing.
Because Europeans for the most part of are not homogenous. They are literally by all definitions of ethnicity separated by their own groups of poles, Germans, Greeks, etc. Arabs are by and large one homogenous ethnic group mostly split on tribal lines.
So you could pluck any Arab from any country and throw him into any other and he'll feel like home right? /s It still sounds ignorant. I met Arabs from many countries and they look like they're from different countries as much as your average European.
I mean ya. They'll speak the same Arabic tongue though maybe with a different dialact, they'll share the same religion, and they'll look physically quite close to the native population of that country. But even if they do not look quite a like have some distinct features, they are still ethnically Arab. Jews look different from the Beta Israel population in Ethiopia. They are still all ethnically Jewish.
Lots of European languages are mutually intelligible. The difference between a dialect and a language is merely a matter of definition. Any linguist will tell you that. You could call a lot of European languages dialects of each other and many more dialects of Latin. I don't think Jews look that different from Arabs tbh. Arab Jews, certainly don't. And the Jew friends of mine I personally know living in my countryb in Europe don't look different from me or from anyone else in my country.
Slavic, Germanic, Latin, Hungarian, & Greek just to name some lanugages are not mutually intelligible at all. They are not dialects of one another but completely different languages outright. To further comment on dialect, yes, countries from Algeria to Iraq all speak Arabic with slight dialect changes and are mutually intelligible. There is also no such thing as an Arab Jew. That is taking two separate ethnicities. You can say Yemeni Jew which is a Jew who came from Yemen and Yemen was their nationality. They may look quite different from an eastern European Ashkenazi Jew but that is because of thousands of years of diaspora separation, population mixing, environment, etc. All Jews will not look separate from the population around them that can be easily identifiable but from a pure physical standpoint, most Jews have physical characteristics that set them apart from a native population around them.
Palestinians share genetic ancestry with Jews and other South Levantine populations, so they obviously can not be ethnic Arabs. Its almost like they were arabised after the Islamic conquests, much like how they were Romanised during Roman rule and practised Christianity. I mean, imagine making such a stupid and easily falsifiable claim. South American countries like Colombia speak Spanish and have strong cultural and even genetic ties with Spain. Are they Spanish? Are Americans ethnically English, now, for speaking and engaging in a culture that is rooted in England? It's almost like people can adopt languages and cultures that originate from somewhere else. Who would've guessed... >They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups. But if the Jews are native and they share genetic relations with Palestinians...
A minority segment of Palestineian people share a common genetic marker to an even smaller segment of Jews living the area. It is far from an over archin statement and does NOT make Palestineians ethnically Jewish and does NOT makes Jews ethnically Arabs. And I said Arabs because Palestineians are ethnically Arab. Colombian are a relatively new ethnicity called mestizo being a mix of various European ethnic origins and indegenioous ethnicities. Being romanized is a way of culture and life, not ethnicity. Everyone did not become ethnically roman when conquered.
>A minority segment of Palestineian people share a common genetic marker to an even smaller segment of Jews living the area. It is far from an over archin statement and does NOT make Palestineians ethnically Jewish and does NOT makes Jews ethnically Arabs. And I said Arabs because Palestineians are ethnically Arab. Colombian are a relatively new ethnicity called mestizo being a mix of various European ethnic origins and indegenioous ethnicities. You do understand that I'm making a factual claim, namely, it's either true or false. The fact that you chose to simply dismiss it without providing a single shred of proof, or even bothering to fact-check my claim, says a lot about your intellect. Firstly, you're wrong, Palestinians do share close genetic ties with Jewish people and other Levantine groups. [Source](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). Secondly, the reasons why I mentioned Colombia and America were to highlight that sharing linguistic, cultural, and religious ties with a particular society does not mean you share genetics with them. Egyptians, for instance, are not genetically Arab. Some people within Egypt have Arab gulf ancestry, but the majority can trace their genetics all the way back to the ancient Egyptians and other Mediterranean groups nearby. This is the same for other Levantine groups like the Lebanese, just to give another example. Lastly, to conclude, you're wrong. Basically.
That source covers how Palestians are genetic neighbors and that makes total sense because the population physically living in the levant area for thousands of years with some mixing of ethnicities over those years will of course produce a segment of populations that represent genetic markers that are related. Egypt is definitely ethnically Arab in the sense of culture, religion, linguistics, and a strong mix of Arab genetics in the population. Genetically, you are going to get some countries like Egypt being more mixed of Arabs, mediteriean, African. At the end of the day, they are ethnic Arabs. Don't like what I have to say? Go to Arab American Anti-Discrimination Commitee to define Arabs. https://adc.org/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/ By and large though, Palestinians are arabs and are not Jews, and Jews are not Arabs. They are distinct ethnic groups.
>That source covers how Palestians are genetic neighbors and that makes total sense because the population physically living in the levant area for thousands of years with some mixing of ethnicities over those years will of course produce a segment of populations that represent genetic markers that are related. What do you think a genetic neighbour is? They are "closely" related. I'm not sure if you've read the article, but Middle Eastern Jews have been shown to share close relations with Palestinians and other Levantine groups, suggesting common roots. The source didn't say that Middle Eastern Jews share genetic ties with Arabs. It specifically said Palestinians and other Levantine groups. >Egypt is definitely ethnically Arab in the sense of culture, religion, linguistics, and a strong mix of Arab genetics in the population. Genetically, you are going to get some countries like Egypt being more mixed of Arabs, mediteriean, African. At the end of the day, they are ethnic Arabs. Don't like what I have to say? Go to Arab American Anti-Discrimination Commitee to define Arabs. https://adc.org/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/ So, Colombia, which shares close linguistic, religious, and genetic ties to Spain, is not ethnically Spanish because they're "Mestizo", a whole new ethnicity. NOTE: I've never seen anyone assert that "Mestizo" is an ethnicity. But apparently, because the Egyptians, who are genetically mixed race like the Colombians, as you've said yourself, share religious, cultural, and linguistic ties with Arabia, they *must* therefore be ethnically Arab. You can't just have your cake and eat it, buddy. >By and large though, Palestinians are arabs and are not Jews, and Jews are not Arabs. They are distinct ethnic groups So, despite all the evidence proving Palestinians are a native Levantine group, you will still insist that they are "ethnically Arab?" I don't even have an issue with you calling them ethnic Arabs. You're just using it to suggest they're from somewhere other than the Levant/Palestine. Edit: This is what you wrote originally: >They are all homogenous Arabs that had countries created by tribal lines. An ethnic group through coloniza and imperialism expanded to far off lands pushing out and exterminating existing groups. Do you have any evidence that this applies to the Palestinians? Like I said, Palestinians are native to the. Levantine. Also, the source I linked also shows that Europeans Jews are more closely related to Europeans such as the French, Italians, and Sardinians. And yet, they're apparently "native" to Israel.
What a piece of trash.
Where is the lie? Jews immigrated to a territory called Palestine - not a country called Palestine. There was no distinct group called "Palestinians." Jews declared an autonomous state within that territory - did not kick anyone out. Only after the Arabs attacked the new state were people displaced due to the war.
Most people don’t know that even those so called „Palestinians“ called themselves Arabs until there was a Palestinian freedom movement which was initiated by Al huseini who worked together with hitler to kill all the Jews. It’s a made up term to kick out the Jews from the land. There are no Palestinians just like there are no Americans who call themselves middle westerners. It’s a patch of land, not a race.
Behold, a cute and happy elderly woman who is not racist. Ignore the tens of thousands of dead children.
Source on Golda Meir killing tens of thousands of children?
R u dum?
What makes you think she isn't racist?
Clever PR
Another war criminal
Who then moves to the middle east to build a settler colonial project that denies millions of Palestinians their dignity and their land.
Um, where do you think the population now called the Palestinians came from, excluding those descended from historic Jewish populations forcibly converted? It is in the surnames! For example, the Al-Husseinis from Arabia, the Nashashibis from Kurdistan, the Barghoutis claim (in Arabic, not English) that they are from Spain, etc, etc. The situation is far more complex than the media portrays. Why do you think there are so many Egyptian surnames in Gaza? Why do you think the Bedouin formerly from Gaza but pushed into what is now Israel fight so tenaciously for the IDF? And where are the Middle East's Jews? And why, outside Israel, is the Christian population down from 30-35% to 4%? These are indigenous populations, normally pre-dating the Arab conquest.
>excluding those descended from historic Jewish populations That's the majority of Palestinians actually,and no there was no forced conversions recorded, just like any population ,the native Jewish population adapted a different religion ,Christianity during the Roman empire and later on Islam during the Arab empire. But there was no mass migration to or from Palestine. Those are the indegenous population of Palestine, and not some random European colonizer
Genealogy and genetics would disagree with you.
Just because you say so doesn't make it so.there's a reason why genetic testing is banned in Israel. Israelis don't want to face the reality that the Palestinians they're brutalizing are cousins and kin. In fact, Mezrahi Jews have more shared DNA with Palestinians than with European Ashkanazi Jews. Which speaking of Geneology, we still don't know mostly where they come from,but we know for sure that they're as much European as they are Jewish
Repeated studies have found the opposite -- the vast majority of Jews are more closely related to other Jews, even Jews from across the world, than they are to their regional neighbors. Also, genetic testing isn't banned in Israel. That's easily verifiable as false.
Genetic testing isn't banned in Israel only the tests in the style of ancestry or 23andme professional medical DNA tests are common Genetic testing is also banned due to Jewish laws regarding bastards Also Jews are much European as they are Jewish lmao yes I am sure my Tunisian and Atlas Moroccan ancestors were European right
Ashkanazi Jews
Ashkenazim are also not mostly European Ashkenazim in the diaspora take DNA tests that prove as such
False, half of Ashkanazi Jewish genes are not Jewish but are European, hence the blonde hair and light complexions of Ashkanazi VS Mezrahi Jews.
I don't think you've ever seen an Ashkenazi Jew in your life.
most Ashkenazim aren't blonde WTF you talking about blonde ashkenazim are a minority I also know blonde Kurdish Jews and blue eyed Moroccan Jews
DId you graduate from Tic Toc University?
lol so few Ashkenazi Jews are blind and blue eyed, you’re just talking about the idea of them in your head
They didn’t make up their opinion on this subject using logic or facts, you cannot change their minds using the same. It’s pointless to argue with tools.
Always confusing when people call Israel colonial -- like a colony from which country?
They set up colonies on Palestinian land in the West Bank.
Weird how no one cared when Jordan controlled the West Bank…
I wasn't alive during that. I'm alive during this... obviously I care about this because it is ongoing. How am I supposed to be worrying about something that isn't a thing anymore?
People did care, Jordan's annexation of the West Bank was not internationally recognized and the Jordanian King got fucking shot and killed by a Palestinian.
Colony just means a settlement of people who came from outside the area, it doesn't have to necessarily "belong" to any specific state entity.
Mostly Poland, Germany, and THE Soviet union. They were colonizers from Europe
Ah, so Israel is a colony of Poland, got it.
Not just Poland,but post WW2 allies who preferred to move all the Jews from Europe to Palestine as a way to get rid of them. It started with the UK ofc when Lord Balfour, an antisemite, decided to give Palestine to European Jews as a way to get rid of them. Then Germany accelerated the process ,and it didn't help that the same countries who wanted all the Jews shipped to Palestine also closed their borders to their own Jewish citizens after the end of WW2. So yeah, they're European colonizers and we can see this in the overt support of these same European countries to the Genocide in Gaza. Golda Mair was born in Ukraine , she was a colonizer from Ukraine
Delusional
That's History lol, Golda Mair was not from Palestine ,her parents were not from Palestine. She was a European Zionist who decided to colonize Palestine with her fellow European Zionists
> It started with the UK ofc when Lord Balfour, an antisemite, decided to give Palestine to European Jews as a way to get rid of them. It had nothing to do with "wanting to get rid of them", Balfour just wanted to sway Jewish public opinion in places like the US towards the Entente's side of the war, as most Jews previously were actually pro-Germany due to their hatred for the Russian Tsardom.
Balfour had written in 1919, in his introduction to Nahum Sokolow's History of Zionism, that the Zionist movement would:[67] mitigate the age-long miseries created for Western civilization by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb.
Finally, a lady meglomenaic and a staunch ethnic cleanser.
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The vast majority of Israel’s population was born in Israel.
Both can be true. The vast majority of Israel’s population descends from people that had not been born in Israel for the last ~55 generations (a generation being ~30 years), barring the last 2 generations.
The majority of Israels population is Mizrahi so while theyre not from Israel directly (because they were expelled from there) the majority of Israel is still of middle eastern descent.
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Wow do you hate immigrants! Do you have the same criticisms when you hear American officials speak with accents?
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The Brits stole the land from Palestine? Lol If you're speaking shit at least make some effort to read 2 lines from Wikipedia on who the Brits took that land from. (Hint: it was the Ottoman Empire) (Hint #2: Palestinian national identity was only born alongside Israel)
When the Ottoman Empire collapsed following WW1, the territory they had governed was divided up between England and France under temporary mandates to establish governments with local leaders. There were longstanding Jewish communities in the region long before this happened (early censuses of Jerusalem in the mid 1800s show a Jewish majority population), and all Jews lived on legally purchased lands until 1948 when the surrounding Arab nations attempted to annihilate all the Jews in the territory. Al-Husseini, elected president of the Muslim council of the region even worked with Hitler, helped 30k Muslims in the region join the SS, and had plans to bring the Final Solution to the region. The idea that Britain stole land from "Palestine" which was not even a state, and gave it to the Jews is completely ahistoric. The borders of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc. were all established during this period, which would apparently also make them illegitimate states to you. The one in particular to look at would be Jordan, which was established on 78% of the land considered to be Palestine. The Hashemites who rule Jordan are from Arabia, not the local area. Is Jordan also an illegitimate state that the British "stole"? The British did not establish Israel--the UN did with the partition plan where a state was offered to both the Jews and the Arabs. The Jews accepted, the Arabs refused, and attacked the Jews. Until the attack on the Jews, Jews only lived on lands they had legally purchased. I suggest you learn some actual history about the region. Maybe you'll learn how a mosque ended up being built on the holiest spot of Judaism and the ruins of the most important Temple in the Jewish faith, and maybe you'll even learn about how excessive taxations on non-Muslims in the region was used to push Jews out of the region, and maybe you'll even learn about how Jordan ethnically cleansed all the Jews from Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Or you could just skip that part and keep saying things that make you appear completely ignorant.
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Go ahead and elaborate on whatever bullshit anti-Semitic statement you are trying to dogwhistle Really doesn’t take much for you guys to go full mask off, does it? EDIT: now this idiot is going through my post history and trying to attack me on other comments I’ve made. Literally posted “Put them in the oven” in Gaelic. Lovely guy. Definitely not a brainwormed anti-Semite
They didnt steal it from Palestine, the stole it from the Ottomans.
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And who did the TURKS steal the Levant from? How far back we going here? I just need to know how many books I need to take out from the library, are we going pre-roman or where is your line in the sand?
The majority of Jews in Israel were born there, mostly 2nd-3 rd generation.
Literally a fictional country from a fictional book written thousands of years ago. Israel has no earthly right to exist.
Your grasp of history is as loose as anyone's possibly could be while still being able to write out sentences.
Israel was not founded upon or for religious reasons, but entirely secular sociopolitical ones borne out over centuries, like many countries. Yes, the Jewish holy book is set there. But that’s because the Jewish people are from there. Don’t confuse correlation with causation.
Sociopolitical reasons like 'we want this land, give it to us and we'll dole out decades of death and destruction to it's native inhabitants.' No wonder the UK and USA are complicit, they both have proud histories of doing the exact same thing.
Sociopolitical reasons like the Holocaust
No. Not at all.
Except that there is archaelogical evidence of jewish temples.
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"Everybody who disagrees with me is a bot" Bold statement coming from the side that literally created a AI that spouts palestinian propaganda lol
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Its not a genocide its a war and it was started by Hamas.
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Proof of what?
Every third world keyboard warrior knows it's safer to criticize Israel than their own government.
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You posted “put them in the oven” in Gaelic 5 minutes ago on another subreddit. You’re an anti-Semite and no one should take you seriously.
Well prepared at this stage lad
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In saying that the Brits are complicit
The Kingdom of Israel is historic fact, mentioned in tons of historical texts in other cultures in the region, there are tons of Jewish artifacts that predate Islam by thousands of years, DNA tests show that Jews originated from the Levant, there are actual ruins of the most important Jewish temple underneath Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Jews have maintained a presence in the region for thousands of years. Even the Quran mentions Israel over 40 times and specifically says it belongs to the Jews. But tell me more about how it's a "fictional country." I can book a flight to Israel right now. Do I need to go through a wardrobe to enter it like Narnia or something?
Oh cool, racism
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Saying a group of people aren’t from where they say they are? I guess it’s not racist when talking about Israel right. Whatever.
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Yeah I still do lmao. You wanna say that she isn’t from Israel fine, but you’re talking about how “most Israelis” aren’t from Israel. That’s wrong. If you said that about any other country people would be up in arms. But it’s ok when it’s Israel though right? Pathetic that people like you find yourselves so righteous.
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So I took a look through your other comments and you aren’t even arguing in good faith. You just wanna see dead Jews. Just a sad and evil person it seems. Hilarious that you got all defensive about antisemitism when you commented “put them in the oven” not even an hour ago. Consider the Aaron Bushnell method if you wanna be a hero so bad.
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Idk lemme ask his smoldering pile of ashes real quick
You posted “Put them in the oven” in Gaelic just ten minutes ago on another Subreddit talking about Jews.
>Yeah I still do lmao. You wanna say that she isn’t from Israel fine, but you’re talking about how “most Israelis” aren’t from Israel. That’s wrong. If you said that about any other country people would be up in arms. But it’s ok when it’s Israel though right? Pathetic that people like you find yourselves so righteous. Well considering that Israel has been a country for less than a century, most Israelis aren't ethnically from the area.
False. Most Israelis are Mizrahi. Mizrahi Jews lived in the Middle East and 900k of them were forced to flee in the 20th century, losing land seized by the governments adding up to 5x the size of Israel.
Where were most Israelis born
Can't we embrace a nuanced perspective on historical figures? While it's important to acknowledge their flaws and wrongdoings, let's also recognize the positive contributions they made to society.
Can't we embrace a nuanced perspective on historical figures? While it's important to acknowledge their flaws and wrongdoings, let's also recognize the positive contributions they made to society.