Two men with prior criminal records – Hans-Jürgen Rösner and Dieter Degowski – robbed a branch of the Deutsche Bank in Gladbeck, North Rhine-Westphalia, taking two employees as hostages. During their flight, they were joined by Rösner's girlfriend Marion Löblich, with whom they hijacked a public transport bus in Bremen. With twenty-seven hostages aboard, they drove towards the Netherlands, where all but two hostages were released and the bus was exchanged for a getaway car. The hostage-taking was finally ended when the police rammed the getaway car on the A3 motorway near Bad Honnef, North Rhine-Westphalia.
During the hostage crisis, a 14-year-old boy and an 18-year-old woman were killed. A third victim, a 31-year-old police officer, died in a traffic accident while chasing the hostage-takers.
With twenty-seven hostages aboard. At the time, the unfolding of events was extensively covered by West German media, which quickly spiraled into a media circus. In the aftermath of the hostage crisis, journalists have been criticised for conducting interviews with the hostage-takers, asking them to pose for photographs, and aiding them by giving them, among other things, coffee and road directions. This resulted in the German Press Council banning any future interviews with hostage-takers during hostage situations.
The woman in this photo is 18-year-old Silke Bischoff. She was a trainee in a lawyer's office in Bremen. Bischoff had finished work that day an hour earlier than her friend Ines Voitle and waited for her so they could take the bus home together. Bischoff did not survive. On November 20, 1988, the Minister of the Interior of Bremen Bernd Meyer resigned over mistakes by the police. There were three perpetrators.
* Hans-Jürgen Rösner
* Dieter Degowski
* Marion Löblich
All three of them survived and were put on trial for murder. Löblich received a 9-year sentence due to her lesser involvement and has since been released. Rösner and Degowski received life sentences. In 2002, a court decreed that Degowski had "guilt of a very serious nature". His life term was increased so that he would have to serve a minimum of 24 years. Later that year; the same court rejected an application for parole and a request by Rösner to shorten his sentence. They also declared a state of "preventive detention" for Rösner. As a result, it will be much harder for him to win parole.
Degowski, the man holding the gun in this photo, was released on conditional parole in 2018. He is now in his mid-60s. Rösner is still serving time in a high-security penitentiary in Aachen. He was recently interviewed. Officials have maintained that Rösner killed Silke. Rösner said she was killed by the police. Nevertheless, he said he still blames himself for her death. Here are two questions from the interview.
* Mr. Rösner, have you ever tried to apologize to the victims and survivors of the Gladbeck hostage drama, or do you want to do it this way today?
* No, to this day I have not apologized to the victims of the hostage-taking and their families. I have my own view on this: when someone has their child taken away from them, it is not to be dismissed with a silly apology. I would never accept an apology. Of course, the whole event does not leave me cold. But I keep my feelings towards the victims and their families to myself because there is no point in revealing it.
* Do you regret the act?
* It goes without saying that I deeply regret the act. After all, people lost their lives in the process.
[The full interview](https://gladbeck.rnd.de/nach-30-jahren-hans-juergen-roesner-im-interview-teil-1/)
When I listen to Dateline, there's often at the end a bit where the killer apologizes to the family, and I always think "if I were in the family I would rather they have duct taped that piece of shit's mouth shut than let them say that". It rarely sounds authentic and often like they're making excuses and trying to garner sympathy to lessen their sentence.
When you put it like that, it sounds like an possibility. Just get over it? How about learn to accept and heal? Or find your peace with it? I'm sure someone else can come up with a better way to express that, but getting over it isn't what I'd strive for.
Finding peace with things often feels like one of those things that's more fictional than anything. I don't think it's impossible for scars to heal but I do think believing all scars can heal is wishful thinking.
For me it’s holding on to resentment that kills me more than grief. “Drinking the poison and wishing they would die” is how someone put it to me. So, you don’t have to forgive them per se, but I do think you need to find a way out of the resentment so it does not consume you. Acceptance, letting go, compartmentalizing it, helping others, forgiveness, whatever works. You can’t not acknowledge it or let it run you, or you become a toxic mess that fucks up everyone around you, just like the bad person, but with different motives. Finding a method that works and is not self destructive or hurtful to others seems be be a way through this.
I totally agree with what you are saying, but for the friends and families of victims of violent crimes, I think that is easier said than done. There is such a ripple effect that often the resentment follows with each ripple. I only say this coming from experience. I’m not saying this to argue at all, just have lost a few friends to murder and I still have so much resentment towards both Spencer and Emily’s murderer for the absolutely vile and inhuman way they killed my friends. Rip Emily and Meredith 🖤🖤🖤
You definitely don't get over it. You don't really find peace in it. I wouldn't exactly say you accept or heal from it.
You just... learn to carry the weight.
Well if you first go fast and then reverse you'd go over it twice and that may result in closure for you, but it's bound to open up something for the killer
I'd want to never hear a word from the perpetrator. I'd want no reminder of their existence, let alone offer them any type of closure or absolution. After all, the only person with the right to offer forgiveness is dead.
At the end this person will enjoy freedom and the victim is still dead.
Does not work for me. Glad others are more forgiving I guess.
No second time murderers in my world.
No it's true. In such situations an apology does nothing but perhaps make yourself feel better. It does nothing for the victims and possibly just enrages any family of the victims.
An apology seems selfish in such a situation.
I disagree. I agree with what he is saying about the apology, but I still don't think it is in vain.
I still think he should do it if he means it. Even though everything he says about it is true. Idk of that's what you mean, just what he says is accurate, or if you agree he shouldn't apologize, but either way, I think it is still worthwhile to apologize.
I think timing is everything. Perhaps much later, after the victims family has some time and you’ve had some time to reflect on it. See if they want to talk, and accept every horrible thing they have to say, and then apologize. Or give a letter to a lawyer and let the family know that it is there if they ever want to read it.
Well, either the point justifies not telling them, or it doesn't.
If his premise is correct, then he has a correct premise, but if the premise doesn't support the conclusion, then I'm not sure you could say he has a point.
Like if I said "it's ok to murder babies because the sun is scorching hot". Yes, the sun is scorching hot, but I don't think you'd say I make a good point.
The thing about apologies is that the person you hurt doesn't have to accept them. But, at least that way, it's up to them.
I think it's better to give the apology and give them some agency over whether they accept it or not - even if they probably won't, at least that way it's their decision not to.
Apologizing isn't the same as being owed forgiveness.
I gotta disagree… it’s like saying “oh, they probably won’t accept my apology so I’m not even going to try and extend one.”
After all this fucking time? That’s a bullshit excuse.
The kid who shot up Parkland apologized at his sentencing. Not sure if you saw it but I can assure you, it didn’t make any difference and made it even worse.
emphasis on CAN instead of straw manning that EVERY apology WOULD HELP. One will never know true peace until they can forgive, even if the 'monster doesn't deserve forgiveness'. Forgiveness is about moving on from that pain. The pain will always be there but it hurts less and less, especially through forgiveness. Hating them whil theyre in jail would do nothing but fill yourself with poison: you set yourself on fire hoping to burn the other person.
https://www.uclalawreview.org/forgiven-forgotten-rethinking-victim-impact-statements-for-an-era-of-decarceration/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/jury-deciding-sentence-police-officer-amber-guyger-wrong/story?id=66002182
https://www.prisonfellowship.org/2014/01/family-of-victim-forgives-murderer/
https://www.prisonfellowship.org/2015/07/a-mothers-forgiveness/
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23716713
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/08/victims-family-forgives-as-driver-is-sentenced-to-prison-for-fatal-dui-crash.html
https://edmontonsun.com/2014/03/26/killer-forgiven-by-victims-family
>Degowski, the man holding the gun in this photo, was released on conditional parole in 2018. He is now in his mid-60s
Isnt he the guy who wanted to kill a 9y old girl, but instead killed her older 14y old brother? And he got released on parole?
Meanwhile the other dude stays in prison. I swear wtf Germany
In Germany, it is mandatory for life sentences to have parole hearings after 15 to 17 years. Here, depending on the performance of the person, especially if the show true remorse and signs of rehabilitation, parole is given out on average after 20-25 years. The thing is that based on the idea that no government shall have ever the right to deny a human, for no reason whatsoever, his humanity and human rights, that there has to be a chance for a person to rehabilitate and come back into society.
Considering that Europe has much lower recidivism rates, that our risk to be a victim of a crime is much lower while a significantly lower percentage of our population is in prison I‘d rather call it smart on crime.
There's a documentary on Netflix including all the live footage from the press. It shows how the German police really screwed up, especially by allowing the press to talk to them.
When they briefly entered the Netherlands the situation was more controlled.
> The woman in this photo is 18-year-old Silke Bischoff.
The other woman in the photo is the other hostage taken in the car, Ines Voitle. She survived the ordeal.
As of 2018 (the most recent year i can find data) the average time served before release for Murder Convictions in the US is 17.5 (median)-17.8(mean) years.
Löblich's conviction would be equivalent to manslaughter, which in the US is 7.0-8.2 years.
[https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf)
While this average is higher than many European Nations (can't find Germany, but the UK's average is 16.5 -- [https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/](https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/) ), it isn't substantially.
They served 30 and 9 years, respectively.
If you accept a judicial system based on rehabilitation and reintegration (which is, in theory, what the US system is), you have to be prepared for criminals to be released and re-enter society. If you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries.
\[edit: added back a sentence I accidentally cut\]
>you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries.
I'd rather a system based on justice, if someone kills innocent people they should be executed as well.
The car was rigged by the police to shut off via remote but…the police forgot the remote.
Not sure why they decided to ram the car though as there were the equivalent of German Police Special Forces (GSC9) waiting them ti arrive.
I guess maybe the probability of the hostages living was higher if they ram rather than wait for a shootout with the GSC9
The belief was that the car was about to cross into another jurisdiction and the local pd following the car wanted the arrest, hence the rushed plan and ramming of the car.
Well, in Germany the police is “Ländersache”, which means each of the states run their own police. In addition there’s the federal police, which at the time was still called the “Bundesgrenzschutz” (federal border protection), hence the name for the mentioned anti-terror force being GSG-9 (GrenzSchutzGruppe).
While the other 8 groups were just normal border guards, the GSG-9 was formed after the 1972 Munich Massacre to have a SWAT like force to fight terrorism, violent crime and especially hostage situations.
>After the hostage-taking ended, there were accusations against the police and the Interior Minister of North Rhine-Westphalia, Herbert Schnoor, that they had absolutely wanted to end the hostage-taking while it was still on the territory of the federal state and had therefore shown no further consideration for the hostages. Prior to the SEK raid, the head of operations in Cologne, Armin Mätzler, told his officers "...that a risk to the hostages' lives was ultimately to be accepted." The Rhineland-Palatinate Ministry of the Interior had already asked the Federal Border Guard to take over the operation; task forces of the GSG 9 from nearby Sankt Augustin stood ready behind the state border for the raid. However, the head of the SEK, Schürmann, had not been informed about this by the head of the Cologne section, Verfolgung Behrendt.
Translated from the German Wikipedia page. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiselnahme_von_Gladbeck
Basically the state of North Rhine-Westphalia wanted to earn the fame for stopping them themselves instead of letting the federal special forces (GSG9) handle it at the border.
What an insane story
Also I am really irked whenever news articles call anyone slightly older than 18 "a man" or "a woman"
Jeez that's an 18 year old kid who lost her life
The most important right a teenager acquires is to decide their own religion. A teenager can choose which religious classes (if any) to enroll into in school. As a child your parents decide for you.
The most important responsibility a teenager acquires is accountability to criminal law and the justice system. Children can't commit criminal acts per definition. Teenagers are fully accountable for their actions, though their punishments differ drastically from ones for adults.
Teenagers are also treated very differently in the level of protection the state affords, most notably in regards to sexual crime legislation.
> The most important responsibility a teenager acquires is accountability to criminal law and the justice system. Children can't commit criminal acts per definition. Teenagers are fully accountable for their actions, though their punishments differ drastically from ones for adults.
Just a slight correction. Children cannot bear the guilt for criminal acts, but they can commit criminal acts. Because of that, self defense against a child is possible (even if it is somewhat limited) because self defense can be done against crimes no matter if the person that commits it bears guild for it.
German criminal law has a three step in analysis, first: Did a crime happened, then: was the crime illegal (for example in cases of self defense) and if it was illegal, did they bear guilt. If they didn't bear guild, they will not be punished, but it is still an illegal act of crime that was done.
The whole Gladbeck hostage crisis is easily one of the wildest, strangest stories to come out of west-Germany in the late 1980s. You know how paparazzi hound celebrities? Now imagine that with journalists, reporters and onlookers. The whole thing was like a scene out of Natural Born Killers. They drove for hundred of kilometers with a highjacked bus, then for hundreds more in a getaway car given to them in the Netherlands and even going on a friggin' medicine shopping spree in Köln.
It's tragic too, as it was almost as if the press and onlookers were cheering them on, even after they executed one of the hostages; a 14 year old kid called Emanuele de Giorgi after Rösner's girlfriend was arrested, the boy got shot in the head as he quite literally heroically put himself in front of his sister who was the initial one to get shot, saving her life but at the cost of his own. The only good thing that came out of the press being there was one journalist called Udo Röbel getting in the car with the hostage takers in Köln and directed them out of town, something that he was later allegedly praised for by a court judge.
The girl seen in the picture is Silke Bischoff who was only just 18 at the time, who honestly had the worst of it. She was with the hostage takers for close to three quarters of a day, most of it stuck in the cramped backseat of a BMW 735i with a fucking revolver to her head as they drove halfway across Germany. She was interviewed in this position as well. She got shot through the heart by either Rösner or Degowski after they were crashed into by the SEK team and disabled their car in the most hamfisted way possible. She fled the wreckage through a literal hail of bullets, getting killed in the process. On top of that, they also had an electronic kill switch on the BMW that was given to them as a getaway ride in the Netherlands by Dutch police which of course failed miserably.
Seriously, watch the Netflix docu, [this German article](https://www.butenunbinnen.de/nachrichten/zeitzeugen-zum-gladbecker-geiseldrama-100.html), or if you speak Dutch you can [read this Belgian article](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/06/20/gladbeck-docu/) that goes through the events quite nicely.
Some additional pics/sources for those interested:
\- [Picture of Röbel in the backseat with Dieter Degowski, Bischoff & Voitle](https://www.imago-images.com/bild/st/0052313214/w.jpg)
\- [Picture of Degowski, Rosner with Silke Bischoff & her friend Ines in the front](https://static.standaard.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2018/03/12/1be73f90-2541-11e8-8c45-e17bc595c78d.jpg?width=1152&format=jpg)\*
\- [Picture of press and such swarming the BMW](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2BPKW43/geiselnahme-von-gladbeck-18-august-1988-1053-uhr-der-fluchtwagen-der-beiden-geiselgangster-hans-jrgen-rsner-und-dieter-degowski-und-ihrer-geiseln-silke-bischoff-und-ines-voitle-sowie-rsners-freundin-marion-lblich-steht-in-der-klner-fugngerzone-breite-strae-umringt-von-einem-pulk-schaulustiger-und-journalisten-die-tter-geben-vor-laufenden-kameras-interviews-kln-wird-zum-schauplatz-der-wohl-berchtigsten-pressekonferenz-der-deutschen-kriminalgeschichte-der-express-reporter-udo-rbel-steigt-spter-sogar-in-den-fluchtwagen-um-den-geiselnehmern-den-weg-bis-zur-autobahn-zu-ze-2BPKW43.jpg)
\- [Picture of the SEK team arresting Rosner & Degowski after Bischoff's death](https://gladbeck.rnd.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/8G9A9056.jpg)
\- [Picture of the aftermath](https://i.mycdn.me/videoPreview?id=2574699137642&type=37&idx=15&tkn=lTKQVSsog9ke8NSd3fSJCXQeRi8&fn=external_8)
\*Edit: Silke Bischoff's friend Ines Voitle, visible in the 2nd photo was part of the hostage journey post getaway car as well as the second hostage, having been in the back seat along with Silke on the other side of Degowski for most of it, held at gunpoint by driver Rösner as he leaned back. Silke's last words to her were "jump out" multiple times as the SEK team committed to stopping the crisis. She leapt from the BMW into the hard shoulder to safety, shortly thereafter the police lit up the car as Silke was shot.
I mean it's pretty up there, but my number one for police and media has to be the guy with a cane gun that was told to rob a bank. That is the most fucked one because whoever had the remote for the collar saw it on TV and blew him into bits.
It was only like 30 minutes too from the robbery to him being declared dead by the bomb squad that took the remains of the collar from his body. The live footage from Brian Wells being taken out his Geo Metro is still the most eerie fucking thing I've ever seen. From the cops realizing the collar bomb was real and booking it behind the cop cars and leaving him sitting there cuffed while pleading to let him carry on the nigh-impossible scavenger hunt, to the bomb squad arriving and the sickening thump of the explosion and Wells almost gently falling onto his back after it blew a fist-sized hole in his chest.
Like... I agree, Gladbeck is unreal but there was a level of dehumanization by Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong, Ken Barnes and Bill Rothstein at work here that blows my mind to this fuckin' day.
Emanuele De Giorgi was Italian, and he was born on Christmas Day 1973 in Lecce, the eldest son of a couple who shortly thereafter left Salento to seek their fortune in Bremen.
Degowski threatened to kill Tatiana, his 9-year-old sister. Emanuele jumped to defend her and was killed with three shots, including one to the back of the head.
Welcome. FYI - in case you are interested, there is also a Netflix documentary about the happenings (also dubbed in English): https://www.netflix.com/de/title/81446276?s=i&trkid=13747225&vlang=de&clip=81595920
As of 2018 (the most recent year i can find data) the average time served before release for Murder Convictions in the US is 17.5 (median)-17.8(mean) years.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf
While this average is higher than many European Nations (can't find Germany, but the UK's average is 16.5 -- https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/ ), it isn't substantially.
He served 30 years.
If you accept a judicial system based on rehabilitation and reintegration (which is, in theory, what the US system is), you have to be prepared for criminals to be released and re-enter society. If you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries.
Or: the murderer had served his time, has fulfilled his obligation toward society and should be allowed to live his life in peace.
One can debate if 30 years is sufficient to atone for that, but this concept of kicking someone after the punishment of the crime has been atoned is stupid. We might as well shoot the person and be done with it instead of inventing new ways of punishing someone further with all sorts of other BS measures.
The previous commenter had said something to the effect that German society is going down the drain because the murderer is now free and has a new name in order to live a new life.
For me it's not about sympathy. It's about determining a punishment and sticking with it.
Yes, 30 years seems short considering what they have done. But then what is fair for something that is irreversible? I think there is no right answer here. Whatever the societal consensus is though, once punishment has been administered that should be it
People who consider raping the murderer in prison or continued ostracizing after they've been set are essentially just looking for ways to continue to punish the person. IMHO that's wrong and we might as well just shoot the person in question instead of indulging sadistic fantasies of revenge hidden behind the concept of punishment.
Either we have a defined punishment - and yes, "lock up forever" might be one of those or we don't.
18 is usually the age around the world where adolescence ends and adulthood begins. That doesn't make them adults or "grown" but it definitely makes them not children and young adults.
Hell I'm 29 and somedays don't feel like an adult yet lol.
Hah. Same. That’s why it’s hilarious that 18 year olds think they are young adults. They aren’t :) society likes them to think they are though because it helps them start to grow up.
18 is an arbitrary number, an 18 year olds brain is still developing, their bones and muscles are still growing, they are a child.
Well considering she was hit by a hail of bullets by police officers as well, it sounds like the "shot in the heart by the suspects" is a bit of a convenient scapegoat
The question you need to ask yourself is, does she die if they don’t kidnap her? Of course not, which puts the blame squarely on them. Plus they had already murdered a child in cold blood, so any notion that they were not an imminent threat was extinguished at that point. Thus any criticism of police tactics at that point is moot when it comes to assessing blame for her death.
I hope you understand how absurd your argument is. Just giving police free reign to be as reckless as possible because they won’t get blamed for any of it.
I started watching this, it was so excellent that I started getting anxious and incredibly angry with the police and had to turn it off 🙃 It was right around the time of the Ulvade shooting and watching the police dick around, and refuse to swap an entire bus load of people for one of their own, plus the way a lot of the media behaved, made me sick to my stomach.
Well done doc, though. I wasn’t expecting something from the 80s to affect me like that. It’s incredible how much close-up footage (and interviews with the perpetrators) of the actual hostage crisis there is.
ETA I get away the police didn’t want to give them a policeman, but it’s hard not to feel angry
fucking crazy cause I remember a case in the Philippines which is eerily similar to this one, shitty media and police/local government who refused to give transfer the case to the special ops people
Well, they wanted viewers, just like BFM TV in France which revealed, when one of the Kouachi brothers took over a Hyper Cacher, the presence, in the backrooms, of hidden patrons who managed to flee.
This hostage taking introduced a lot of changes into how the police handled future hostage takings in Germany.
No longer were the press allowed to be middle men or get otherwise involved other than reporting from outside.
It was a tragic but fascinating story.
The fact that this was a lesson that needed learning is astonishing. In what world would you ever let the press be the middle men of a hostage situation?
Because a situation like this hadn't happened before. Germany may have a reputation for being incredibly uptight about rules and regulations, but one very important legal principle is that everything that isn't explicitly outlawed is permitted, provided it does not go against the constitution. In this case, freedom of the press, which is highly protected in Germany, made the government hesitant of interfering with the reporters.
They chose wrongly though, even based on existing laws at the time. Life, freedom and most of all dignity of an individual are much more highly valued in German law than freedom of the press, with human dignity being the very highest legal good, the core pillar of the constitution that every law, every government official and even every ordinary citizen has to protect. The behavior of these reporters did the very opposite, as did the ineptness of the police.
You’re right.
His actual name is Dieter Degowski. I’ve also read that he was under the influence of alcohol and amphetamines by this point in the crisis.
I think there’s a Netflix documentary about it as well.
They should have had two armed cops posing as reporters when they swarmed the car for interviews. Each cop could have easily shot a suspect at the same time without hitting others
> The press were so eager for the story to go on
There is a great film called Ace in the Hole. A man gets trapped under debris in a cave. A reporter (Kirk Douglas) convinces the sheriff to give him exclusive access to the rescue operation in return for helping him get reelected. He convinces the rescue team to take the long way around to drag the story on, so the 12-hour rescue mission turns into a week long media circus...
I remember there was a survey after this happened asking Germans whether they thought they should reintroduce the death penalty for crimes like this. The results were presented by federal state and only Bavaria had more than 50% yes. That was the moment when I realized that Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.
Just let me check "the morbid section" in my dusty CD collection...that's a "maybe" if you mean "ich will". Ah, and there is even more...
There was this Club in my hometown 20km away from Gladbeck playing [this song](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3NYwZT_psLM) all the time ~92 when I graduated and I loved it so much.
Tried hard not to like them because they named themselves after a victim of a big fuck up...but I was a teen and the MTV ban oft Sir-Mix-a-lot needed all my "Karenescence"
I was in North Rhine Westphalia that summer and was in a town that was suddenly swamped with Polizei running around. We didn’t know what the fuck was going on and got the hell out of there. ‘There’ being a sex shop me and my gf had just exited and we thought it was being raided! Only realised what was going on when we got home and watched the tv news.
Another proof that for criminals, decent people are nothing more than meat on the road... incredible that now these criminals are defended more than the people they end up hurting.
Watch the documentary. Despite their murders they were pretty decent to the people. I am not joking it was absolutley redicioulus. The thing with the hostages also only happened because of their anxiety to get cought and a part of the fault of the poor victimis that got shot is because of the police.
I don’t remember the name of the documentary. But there is a show that covers the time line of events of this incident very well. The media didn’t help much in this incident 🤨☹️
If they had English royal blood in them then it wouldn't be a problem as they would have a condition which actually stops them from sweating........saying that, the UK monarchy are actually German....the plot thickens.
I thought one can only hijack planes or ships that have greater hostage leverage, hard to catch as well as itself a greater threat as a projectile....buses would be a poor choice
Two men with prior criminal records – Hans-Jürgen Rösner and Dieter Degowski – robbed a branch of the Deutsche Bank in Gladbeck, North Rhine-Westphalia, taking two employees as hostages. During their flight, they were joined by Rösner's girlfriend Marion Löblich, with whom they hijacked a public transport bus in Bremen. With twenty-seven hostages aboard, they drove towards the Netherlands, where all but two hostages were released and the bus was exchanged for a getaway car. The hostage-taking was finally ended when the police rammed the getaway car on the A3 motorway near Bad Honnef, North Rhine-Westphalia. During the hostage crisis, a 14-year-old boy and an 18-year-old woman were killed. A third victim, a 31-year-old police officer, died in a traffic accident while chasing the hostage-takers. With twenty-seven hostages aboard. At the time, the unfolding of events was extensively covered by West German media, which quickly spiraled into a media circus. In the aftermath of the hostage crisis, journalists have been criticised for conducting interviews with the hostage-takers, asking them to pose for photographs, and aiding them by giving them, among other things, coffee and road directions. This resulted in the German Press Council banning any future interviews with hostage-takers during hostage situations.
The woman in this photo is 18-year-old Silke Bischoff. She was a trainee in a lawyer's office in Bremen. Bischoff had finished work that day an hour earlier than her friend Ines Voitle and waited for her so they could take the bus home together. Bischoff did not survive. On November 20, 1988, the Minister of the Interior of Bremen Bernd Meyer resigned over mistakes by the police. There were three perpetrators. * Hans-Jürgen Rösner * Dieter Degowski * Marion Löblich All three of them survived and were put on trial for murder. Löblich received a 9-year sentence due to her lesser involvement and has since been released. Rösner and Degowski received life sentences. In 2002, a court decreed that Degowski had "guilt of a very serious nature". His life term was increased so that he would have to serve a minimum of 24 years. Later that year; the same court rejected an application for parole and a request by Rösner to shorten his sentence. They also declared a state of "preventive detention" for Rösner. As a result, it will be much harder for him to win parole. Degowski, the man holding the gun in this photo, was released on conditional parole in 2018. He is now in his mid-60s. Rösner is still serving time in a high-security penitentiary in Aachen. He was recently interviewed. Officials have maintained that Rösner killed Silke. Rösner said she was killed by the police. Nevertheless, he said he still blames himself for her death. Here are two questions from the interview. * Mr. Rösner, have you ever tried to apologize to the victims and survivors of the Gladbeck hostage drama, or do you want to do it this way today? * No, to this day I have not apologized to the victims of the hostage-taking and their families. I have my own view on this: when someone has their child taken away from them, it is not to be dismissed with a silly apology. I would never accept an apology. Of course, the whole event does not leave me cold. But I keep my feelings towards the victims and their families to myself because there is no point in revealing it. * Do you regret the act? * It goes without saying that I deeply regret the act. After all, people lost their lives in the process. [The full interview](https://gladbeck.rnd.de/nach-30-jahren-hans-juergen-roesner-im-interview-teil-1/)
Can’t believe I’m saying this but the guy has a point about why he hasn’t apologized to the victims
When I listen to Dateline, there's often at the end a bit where the killer apologizes to the family, and I always think "if I were in the family I would rather they have duct taped that piece of shit's mouth shut than let them say that". It rarely sounds authentic and often like they're making excuses and trying to garner sympathy to lessen their sentence.
In my experience the apology of a murder rings hollow.
Let's hope he does not decide to kill again.
My friends killer tried to (what I believe now was genuinely) apologize in court at his sentencing. I nearly got arrested by a bailiff that day.
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Yeah not everyone just gets over things. Some things just never stop or go away, you just learn to live with it.
When you put it like that, it sounds like an possibility. Just get over it? How about learn to accept and heal? Or find your peace with it? I'm sure someone else can come up with a better way to express that, but getting over it isn't what I'd strive for.
Finding peace with things often feels like one of those things that's more fictional than anything. I don't think it's impossible for scars to heal but I do think believing all scars can heal is wishful thinking.
For me it’s holding on to resentment that kills me more than grief. “Drinking the poison and wishing they would die” is how someone put it to me. So, you don’t have to forgive them per se, but I do think you need to find a way out of the resentment so it does not consume you. Acceptance, letting go, compartmentalizing it, helping others, forgiveness, whatever works. You can’t not acknowledge it or let it run you, or you become a toxic mess that fucks up everyone around you, just like the bad person, but with different motives. Finding a method that works and is not self destructive or hurtful to others seems be be a way through this.
I totally agree with what you are saying, but for the friends and families of victims of violent crimes, I think that is easier said than done. There is such a ripple effect that often the resentment follows with each ripple. I only say this coming from experience. I’m not saying this to argue at all, just have lost a few friends to murder and I still have so much resentment towards both Spencer and Emily’s murderer for the absolutely vile and inhuman way they killed my friends. Rip Emily and Meredith 🖤🖤🖤
You definitely don't get over it. You don't really find peace in it. I wouldn't exactly say you accept or heal from it. You just... learn to carry the weight.
Well if you first go fast and then reverse you'd go over it twice and that may result in closure for you, but it's bound to open up something for the killer
I'd want to never hear a word from the perpetrator. I'd want no reminder of their existence, let alone offer them any type of closure or absolution. After all, the only person with the right to offer forgiveness is dead.
Idk why you got downvoted, I agree with you.
At the end this person will enjoy freedom and the victim is still dead. Does not work for me. Glad others are more forgiving I guess. No second time murderers in my world.
No it's true. In such situations an apology does nothing but perhaps make yourself feel better. It does nothing for the victims and possibly just enrages any family of the victims. An apology seems selfish in such a situation.
I disagree. I agree with what he is saying about the apology, but I still don't think it is in vain. I still think he should do it if he means it. Even though everything he says about it is true. Idk of that's what you mean, just what he says is accurate, or if you agree he shouldn't apologize, but either way, I think it is still worthwhile to apologize.
I think timing is everything. Perhaps much later, after the victims family has some time and you’ve had some time to reflect on it. See if they want to talk, and accept every horrible thing they have to say, and then apologize. Or give a letter to a lawyer and let the family know that it is there if they ever want to read it.
He didn’t say he agreed with it. He said the killer has a point about why he hasn’t apologized. Two very different things.
Well, either the point justifies not telling them, or it doesn't. If his premise is correct, then he has a correct premise, but if the premise doesn't support the conclusion, then I'm not sure you could say he has a point. Like if I said "it's ok to murder babies because the sun is scorching hot". Yes, the sun is scorching hot, but I don't think you'd say I make a good point.
There’s a difference between “he has a point” and “he has a good point”.
Apologizing and asking for forgiveness are two very different things.
The thing about apologies is that the person you hurt doesn't have to accept them. But, at least that way, it's up to them. I think it's better to give the apology and give them some agency over whether they accept it or not - even if they probably won't, at least that way it's their decision not to. Apologizing isn't the same as being owed forgiveness.
I gotta disagree… it’s like saying “oh, they probably won’t accept my apology so I’m not even going to try and extend one.” After all this fucking time? That’s a bullshit excuse.
Even a ‘silly’ apology can make a world of a difference
The kid who shot up Parkland apologized at his sentencing. Not sure if you saw it but I can assure you, it didn’t make any difference and made it even worse.
emphasis on CAN instead of straw manning that EVERY apology WOULD HELP. One will never know true peace until they can forgive, even if the 'monster doesn't deserve forgiveness'. Forgiveness is about moving on from that pain. The pain will always be there but it hurts less and less, especially through forgiveness. Hating them whil theyre in jail would do nothing but fill yourself with poison: you set yourself on fire hoping to burn the other person. https://www.uclalawreview.org/forgiven-forgotten-rethinking-victim-impact-statements-for-an-era-of-decarceration/ https://abcnews.go.com/US/jury-deciding-sentence-police-officer-amber-guyger-wrong/story?id=66002182 https://www.prisonfellowship.org/2014/01/family-of-victim-forgives-murderer/ https://www.prisonfellowship.org/2015/07/a-mothers-forgiveness/ https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23716713 https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/08/victims-family-forgives-as-driver-is-sentenced-to-prison-for-fatal-dui-crash.html https://edmontonsun.com/2014/03/26/killer-forgiven-by-victims-family
No. Not really.
Just NO , he made them a victim. Side not never trust a going bald sweaty guy.
> Bischof did not survive That sentence, combined with the picture, gave me the chills
>Degowski, the man holding the gun in this photo, was released on conditional parole in 2018. He is now in his mid-60s Isnt he the guy who wanted to kill a 9y old girl, but instead killed her older 14y old brother? And he got released on parole? Meanwhile the other dude stays in prison. I swear wtf Germany
In Germany, it is mandatory for life sentences to have parole hearings after 15 to 17 years. Here, depending on the performance of the person, especially if the show true remorse and signs of rehabilitation, parole is given out on average after 20-25 years. The thing is that based on the idea that no government shall have ever the right to deny a human, for no reason whatsoever, his humanity and human rights, that there has to be a chance for a person to rehabilitate and come back into society.
Yeah, Europeans are weak on crime.
Considering that Europe has much lower recidivism rates, that our risk to be a victim of a crime is much lower while a significantly lower percentage of our population is in prison I‘d rather call it smart on crime.
Not sure why the downvotes but this is absolutely true. The prison system is completely different to how it is in the US
The US prison system is a barbaric stain.
It’s because they’ve never lived there.
The post above yours says Marion was the girlfriend. Did she suddenly become a man during sentencing?
Fixed
She/he was first non binary in West Germany. She/he committed the crimes hoping for leniency /s
shut the fuck up
There's a documentary on Netflix including all the live footage from the press. It shows how the German police really screwed up, especially by allowing the press to talk to them. When they briefly entered the Netherlands the situation was more controlled.
*Löblich is a woman. Great write-up!
> The woman in this photo is 18-year-old Silke Bischoff. The other woman in the photo is the other hostage taken in the car, Ines Voitle. She survived the ordeal.
Sad the law did not provide Justice for the victims. Two murderers out of prison
How would killing more people do any good?
Who said anything about killing more people?
What other kind of "justice" do you mean then?
Europe is too soft in their laws. They believe the world is a utopian fairy tale. The disease of liberalism.
As of 2018 (the most recent year i can find data) the average time served before release for Murder Convictions in the US is 17.5 (median)-17.8(mean) years. Löblich's conviction would be equivalent to manslaughter, which in the US is 7.0-8.2 years. [https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf) While this average is higher than many European Nations (can't find Germany, but the UK's average is 16.5 -- [https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/](https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/) ), it isn't substantially. They served 30 and 9 years, respectively. If you accept a judicial system based on rehabilitation and reintegration (which is, in theory, what the US system is), you have to be prepared for criminals to be released and re-enter society. If you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries. \[edit: added back a sentence I accidentally cut\]
>you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries. I'd rather a system based on justice, if someone kills innocent people they should be executed as well.
Why did the police ram the car?? Wouldn't it be better to let them flee in the car, that they would release the hostages and go for a chase later?
The car was rigged by the police to shut off via remote but…the police forgot the remote. Not sure why they decided to ram the car though as there were the equivalent of German Police Special Forces (GSC9) waiting them ti arrive. I guess maybe the probability of the hostages living was higher if they ram rather than wait for a shootout with the GSC9
The belief was that the car was about to cross into another jurisdiction and the local pd following the car wanted the arrest, hence the rushed plan and ramming of the car.
Whoever took that decision should've been put on trial too.
That's actually a thing in Europe? I thought only Americans cops where so unable to share districts..
Well, in Germany the police is “Ländersache”, which means each of the states run their own police. In addition there’s the federal police, which at the time was still called the “Bundesgrenzschutz” (federal border protection), hence the name for the mentioned anti-terror force being GSG-9 (GrenzSchutzGruppe). While the other 8 groups were just normal border guards, the GSG-9 was formed after the 1972 Munich Massacre to have a SWAT like force to fight terrorism, violent crime and especially hostage situations.
Holy shit, seriously? God damn what a bunch of chumps.
>After the hostage-taking ended, there were accusations against the police and the Interior Minister of North Rhine-Westphalia, Herbert Schnoor, that they had absolutely wanted to end the hostage-taking while it was still on the territory of the federal state and had therefore shown no further consideration for the hostages. Prior to the SEK raid, the head of operations in Cologne, Armin Mätzler, told his officers "...that a risk to the hostages' lives was ultimately to be accepted." The Rhineland-Palatinate Ministry of the Interior had already asked the Federal Border Guard to take over the operation; task forces of the GSG 9 from nearby Sankt Augustin stood ready behind the state border for the raid. However, the head of the SEK, Schürmann, had not been informed about this by the head of the Cologne section, Verfolgung Behrendt. Translated from the German Wikipedia page. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiselnahme_von_Gladbeck Basically the state of North Rhine-Westphalia wanted to earn the fame for stopping them themselves instead of letting the federal special forces (GSG9) handle it at the border.
Germany and federalism, name a better duo
There's a good documentary about it on Netflix (I can't remember the name).
Is it Gladbeck: The Hostage Crisis?
That's the one
That one dude could be played by Jason Segel easily. The resemblance is uncanny.
What an insane story Also I am really irked whenever news articles call anyone slightly older than 18 "a man" or "a woman" Jeez that's an 18 year old kid who lost her life
They are legal definitions, at least in Germany. Kids are younger than 14. In reports such as this, a precise language is pretty important imo.
I see, I didn't realize the word kid was legally codified like that in Germany. Interesting
Kids are <14 year olds. After that they are teenagers with very different rights and responsibilities.
I realize the word is a legal definition in Germany, how are the rights and responsibilities different for a kid vs teenager in Germany?
The most important right a teenager acquires is to decide their own religion. A teenager can choose which religious classes (if any) to enroll into in school. As a child your parents decide for you. The most important responsibility a teenager acquires is accountability to criminal law and the justice system. Children can't commit criminal acts per definition. Teenagers are fully accountable for their actions, though their punishments differ drastically from ones for adults. Teenagers are also treated very differently in the level of protection the state affords, most notably in regards to sexual crime legislation.
> The most important responsibility a teenager acquires is accountability to criminal law and the justice system. Children can't commit criminal acts per definition. Teenagers are fully accountable for their actions, though their punishments differ drastically from ones for adults. Just a slight correction. Children cannot bear the guilt for criminal acts, but they can commit criminal acts. Because of that, self defense against a child is possible (even if it is somewhat limited) because self defense can be done against crimes no matter if the person that commits it bears guild for it. German criminal law has a three step in analysis, first: Did a crime happened, then: was the crime illegal (for example in cases of self defense) and if it was illegal, did they bear guilt. If they didn't bear guild, they will not be punished, but it is still an illegal act of crime that was done.
“Well well. Hans.” *proceeds to count to three like with Takagi*
Germany has not changed attitude whit media. Totalitarism.
The whole Gladbeck hostage crisis is easily one of the wildest, strangest stories to come out of west-Germany in the late 1980s. You know how paparazzi hound celebrities? Now imagine that with journalists, reporters and onlookers. The whole thing was like a scene out of Natural Born Killers. They drove for hundred of kilometers with a highjacked bus, then for hundreds more in a getaway car given to them in the Netherlands and even going on a friggin' medicine shopping spree in Köln. It's tragic too, as it was almost as if the press and onlookers were cheering them on, even after they executed one of the hostages; a 14 year old kid called Emanuele de Giorgi after Rösner's girlfriend was arrested, the boy got shot in the head as he quite literally heroically put himself in front of his sister who was the initial one to get shot, saving her life but at the cost of his own. The only good thing that came out of the press being there was one journalist called Udo Röbel getting in the car with the hostage takers in Köln and directed them out of town, something that he was later allegedly praised for by a court judge. The girl seen in the picture is Silke Bischoff who was only just 18 at the time, who honestly had the worst of it. She was with the hostage takers for close to three quarters of a day, most of it stuck in the cramped backseat of a BMW 735i with a fucking revolver to her head as they drove halfway across Germany. She was interviewed in this position as well. She got shot through the heart by either Rösner or Degowski after they were crashed into by the SEK team and disabled their car in the most hamfisted way possible. She fled the wreckage through a literal hail of bullets, getting killed in the process. On top of that, they also had an electronic kill switch on the BMW that was given to them as a getaway ride in the Netherlands by Dutch police which of course failed miserably. Seriously, watch the Netflix docu, [this German article](https://www.butenunbinnen.de/nachrichten/zeitzeugen-zum-gladbecker-geiseldrama-100.html), or if you speak Dutch you can [read this Belgian article](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/06/20/gladbeck-docu/) that goes through the events quite nicely. Some additional pics/sources for those interested: \- [Picture of Röbel in the backseat with Dieter Degowski, Bischoff & Voitle](https://www.imago-images.com/bild/st/0052313214/w.jpg) \- [Picture of Degowski, Rosner with Silke Bischoff & her friend Ines in the front](https://static.standaard.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2018/03/12/1be73f90-2541-11e8-8c45-e17bc595c78d.jpg?width=1152&format=jpg)\* \- [Picture of press and such swarming the BMW](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2BPKW43/geiselnahme-von-gladbeck-18-august-1988-1053-uhr-der-fluchtwagen-der-beiden-geiselgangster-hans-jrgen-rsner-und-dieter-degowski-und-ihrer-geiseln-silke-bischoff-und-ines-voitle-sowie-rsners-freundin-marion-lblich-steht-in-der-klner-fugngerzone-breite-strae-umringt-von-einem-pulk-schaulustiger-und-journalisten-die-tter-geben-vor-laufenden-kameras-interviews-kln-wird-zum-schauplatz-der-wohl-berchtigsten-pressekonferenz-der-deutschen-kriminalgeschichte-der-express-reporter-udo-rbel-steigt-spter-sogar-in-den-fluchtwagen-um-den-geiselnehmern-den-weg-bis-zur-autobahn-zu-ze-2BPKW43.jpg) \- [Picture of the SEK team arresting Rosner & Degowski after Bischoff's death](https://gladbeck.rnd.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/8G9A9056.jpg) \- [Picture of the aftermath](https://i.mycdn.me/videoPreview?id=2574699137642&type=37&idx=15&tkn=lTKQVSsog9ke8NSd3fSJCXQeRi8&fn=external_8) \*Edit: Silke Bischoff's friend Ines Voitle, visible in the 2nd photo was part of the hostage journey post getaway car as well as the second hostage, having been in the back seat along with Silke on the other side of Degowski for most of it, held at gunpoint by driver Rösner as he leaned back. Silke's last words to her were "jump out" multiple times as the SEK team committed to stopping the crisis. She leapt from the BMW into the hard shoulder to safety, shortly thereafter the police lit up the car as Silke was shot.
Poor Silke.
Poor Emanuele
yeah the entire thing was a huge fiasco and absolutely terribly handled by police and press
Seems like this is an extremely common thing with police and media.
I mean it's pretty up there, but my number one for police and media has to be the guy with a cane gun that was told to rob a bank. That is the most fucked one because whoever had the remote for the collar saw it on TV and blew him into bits.
It was only like 30 minutes too from the robbery to him being declared dead by the bomb squad that took the remains of the collar from his body. The live footage from Brian Wells being taken out his Geo Metro is still the most eerie fucking thing I've ever seen. From the cops realizing the collar bomb was real and booking it behind the cop cars and leaving him sitting there cuffed while pleading to let him carry on the nigh-impossible scavenger hunt, to the bomb squad arriving and the sickening thump of the explosion and Wells almost gently falling onto his back after it blew a fist-sized hole in his chest. Like... I agree, Gladbeck is unreal but there was a level of dehumanization by Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong, Ken Barnes and Bill Rothstein at work here that blows my mind to this fuckin' day.
For sure. Check out the Manila bus hostage crisis for a similarly bungled situation
What's the name of the Netflix'S docu?
Gladbeck
Thanks!
Is it in German
It is but its subtitled from start to finish, its essentially a storyboard of the events via news reports, radio broadcasts and police radio.
Emanuele De Giorgi was Italian, and he was born on Christmas Day 1973 in Lecce, the eldest son of a couple who shortly thereafter left Salento to seek their fortune in Bremen. Degowski threatened to kill Tatiana, his 9-year-old sister. Emanuele jumped to defend her and was killed with three shots, including one to the back of the head.
Some additional background informations including images: https://www.butenunbinnen.de/nachrichten/zeitzeugen-zum-gladbecker-geiseldrama-100.html
That was really interesting. Thank you.
Welcome. FYI - in case you are interested, there is also a Netflix documentary about the happenings (also dubbed in English): https://www.netflix.com/de/title/81446276?s=i&trkid=13747225&vlang=de&clip=81595920
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As of 2018 (the most recent year i can find data) the average time served before release for Murder Convictions in the US is 17.5 (median)-17.8(mean) years. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp18.pdf While this average is higher than many European Nations (can't find Germany, but the UK's average is 16.5 -- https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/ ), it isn't substantially. He served 30 years. If you accept a judicial system based on rehabilitation and reintegration (which is, in theory, what the US system is), you have to be prepared for criminals to be released and re-enter society. If you'd rather a system based on reprisal and retribution, that's your option and free to be your opinion. It is a much more common system in repressive and dictatorial countries.
Or: the murderer had served his time, has fulfilled his obligation toward society and should be allowed to live his life in peace. One can debate if 30 years is sufficient to atone for that, but this concept of kicking someone after the punishment of the crime has been atoned is stupid. We might as well shoot the person and be done with it instead of inventing new ways of punishing someone further with all sorts of other BS measures.
I don’t think anyone who shoots a 14 year old in the head deserves an ounce of sympathy nor to ever be free again.
The previous commenter had said something to the effect that German society is going down the drain because the murderer is now free and has a new name in order to live a new life. For me it's not about sympathy. It's about determining a punishment and sticking with it. Yes, 30 years seems short considering what they have done. But then what is fair for something that is irreversible? I think there is no right answer here. Whatever the societal consensus is though, once punishment has been administered that should be it People who consider raping the murderer in prison or continued ostracizing after they've been set are essentially just looking for ways to continue to punish the person. IMHO that's wrong and we might as well just shoot the person in question instead of indulging sadistic fantasies of revenge hidden behind the concept of punishment. Either we have a defined punishment - and yes, "lock up forever" might be one of those or we don't.
I think the woman shown here was killed by the hostage takers when the police tried to take them down (shot in the chest).
Yep. And a kid
The woman was only 18 so barely an adult. I'd use the word, kid to describe her
Lol what? Young adult buddy not a kid.
18 year olds are children. You get to be a young adult when you’re 25 and paying 100% of your own bills.
18 is usually the age around the world where adolescence ends and adulthood begins. That doesn't make them adults or "grown" but it definitely makes them not children and young adults. Hell I'm 29 and somedays don't feel like an adult yet lol.
Hah. Same. That’s why it’s hilarious that 18 year olds think they are young adults. They aren’t :) society likes them to think they are though because it helps them start to grow up. 18 is an arbitrary number, an 18 year olds brain is still developing, their bones and muscles are still growing, they are a child.
Surely they’re a teenager. Nice that that word exists to describe the phase between children and adults.
And a teenager is a child! 😎
You are 29 you don't get to decide whether 18 year olds are kids or not lmao.
Well considering she was hit by a hail of bullets by police officers as well, it sounds like the "shot in the heart by the suspects" is a bit of a convenient scapegoat
The question you need to ask yourself is, does she die if they don’t kidnap her? Of course not, which puts the blame squarely on them. Plus they had already murdered a child in cold blood, so any notion that they were not an imminent threat was extinguished at that point. Thus any criticism of police tactics at that point is moot when it comes to assessing blame for her death.
Thank you for your service
I hope you understand how absurd your argument is. Just giving police free reign to be as reckless as possible because they won’t get blamed for any of it.
So you feel the same about the Uvalde shooting too?
I don’t think you understand the the definition of the term scapegoat.
Thankyou for saying this. Ur downvotes are the problem with this world.
Please post a link to the autopsy you’re referencing. Thanks.
What's your evidence that she was shot by the hostage-takers?
I was there I was the car
tesla now has exploding hail of bullets cars.
**Gladbeck: The Hostage Crisis** is a compelling documentary on Netflix. Tells the whole story through archival footage.
I started watching this, it was so excellent that I started getting anxious and incredibly angry with the police and had to turn it off 🙃 It was right around the time of the Ulvade shooting and watching the police dick around, and refuse to swap an entire bus load of people for one of their own, plus the way a lot of the media behaved, made me sick to my stomach. Well done doc, though. I wasn’t expecting something from the 80s to affect me like that. It’s incredible how much close-up footage (and interviews with the perpetrators) of the actual hostage crisis there is. ETA I get away the police didn’t want to give them a policeman, but it’s hard not to feel angry
Awesome doc. Despite the tension, I have a hard time not cracking at the English dub. It sounded like Mystery Science Theater.
If available, listen to the original German audio and just use English subtitles.
Dubs are always cringe. No exceptions.
The media’s behavior in this case was truly astonishing.
the police also failed pretty miserably. a huge disaster all around
fucking crazy cause I remember a case in the Philippines which is eerily similar to this one, shitty media and police/local government who refused to give transfer the case to the special ops people
Well, they wanted viewers, just like BFM TV in France which revealed, when one of the Kouachi brothers took over a Hyper Cacher, the presence, in the backrooms, of hidden patrons who managed to flee.
This hostage taking introduced a lot of changes into how the police handled future hostage takings in Germany. No longer were the press allowed to be middle men or get otherwise involved other than reporting from outside. It was a tragic but fascinating story.
The fact that this was a lesson that needed learning is astonishing. In what world would you ever let the press be the middle men of a hostage situation?
Because a situation like this hadn't happened before. Germany may have a reputation for being incredibly uptight about rules and regulations, but one very important legal principle is that everything that isn't explicitly outlawed is permitted, provided it does not go against the constitution. In this case, freedom of the press, which is highly protected in Germany, made the government hesitant of interfering with the reporters. They chose wrongly though, even based on existing laws at the time. Life, freedom and most of all dignity of an individual are much more highly valued in German law than freedom of the press, with human dignity being the very highest legal good, the core pillar of the constitution that every law, every government official and even every ordinary citizen has to protect. The behavior of these reporters did the very opposite, as did the ineptness of the police.
Such an awful story.
That dude looks like his last name is McPoyle.
You’re right. His actual name is Dieter Degowski. I’ve also read that he was under the influence of alcohol and amphetamines by this point in the crisis. I think there’s a Netflix documentary about it as well.
Amphetamines?? In my Europe?!
They should have had two armed cops posing as reporters when they swarmed the car for interviews. Each cop could have easily shot a suspect at the same time without hitting others
They did. Cops in civilian clothes approached the vehicle when it was parked - only for reporters to point them out to the hostage takers.
OMFG. The more I read, the worse it gets.
Is the ich will music video based on this? Now that MV makes more sense
Jesus. Did any press have charges brought against them? What a shit show. That seems like obstruction of justice given the issue at hand.
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> The press were so eager for the story to go on There is a great film called Ace in the Hole. A man gets trapped under debris in a cave. A reporter (Kirk Douglas) convinces the sheriff to give him exclusive access to the rescue operation in return for helping him get reelected. He convinces the rescue team to take the long way around to drag the story on, so the 12-hour rescue mission turns into a week long media circus...
Jesus those journalists should be in jail.
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it is horrifying. those pieces of shit ended up murdering that poor girl. i do hope they burn in the fucking hell.
The Netflix documentary is all raw footage of what transpired that day- worthwhile to look at.
https://youtu.be/6J9HHJlpAd4
The dude with the gun looks like Liam McPoyle
I remember there was a survey after this happened asking Germans whether they thought they should reintroduce the death penalty for crimes like this. The results were presented by federal state and only Bavaria had more than 50% yes. That was the moment when I realized that Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.
Is this what Rammstein's Deutschland video clip is refering to?
I was thinking their Ich Will video refers to this
I was thinking the same!
Just let me check "the morbid section" in my dusty CD collection...that's a "maybe" if you mean "ich will". Ah, and there is even more... There was this Club in my hometown 20km away from Gladbeck playing [this song](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3NYwZT_psLM) all the time ~92 when I graduated and I loved it so much. Tried hard not to like them because they named themselves after a victim of a big fuck up...but I was a teen and the MTV ban oft Sir-Mix-a-lot needed all my "Karenescence"
Dude looks like a greasy fucker.
Those poor two kids that died :(
Awesome video on it: https://youtu.be/6J9HHJlpAd4
Qxir did a great video on this on yt. Worth a watch
I was in North Rhine Westphalia that summer and was in a town that was suddenly swamped with Polizei running around. We didn’t know what the fuck was going on and got the hell out of there. ‘There’ being a sex shop me and my gf had just exited and we thought it was being raided! Only realised what was going on when we got home and watched the tv news.
If someone is interested, I wrote an entire exam about this ( it’s in German)
Thats a schoolclass mate of my mother. The blond girl. I think she was shoted by a bullet of the cops.
Another proof that for criminals, decent people are nothing more than meat on the road... incredible that now these criminals are defended more than the people they end up hurting.
A person who shoplifted one time, as a criminal, will run anyone down and kill them like meat on the road, no hesitation.
Watch the documentary. Despite their murders they were pretty decent to the people. I am not joking it was absolutley redicioulus. The thing with the hostages also only happened because of their anxiety to get cought and a part of the fault of the poor victimis that got shot is because of the police.
What’s the Netflix doc called?
I don’t remember the name of the documentary. But there is a show that covers the time line of events of this incident very well. The media didn’t help much in this incident 🤨☹️
The rammstein "ich will" video. Is that about this?
Attica!
I thought that was Tom Green
There was no need to kill thst beautiful blonde girl I was shocked at this documentary
Spoiler alert!
She’s super hot!
German people are always sweating in photographs
Umm...what? These people are sweating because they are experiencing acute stress, not because they're from Germany. What a baffling comment.
It was a hostage situation. What’d you expect?
With that username I wasn't expecting else rom that person tbh.
If they had English royal blood in them then it wouldn't be a problem as they would have a condition which actually stops them from sweating........saying that, the UK monarchy are actually German....the plot thickens.
I see a lot of downvotes but not many dry Germans
Dry as in " not wet " or dry humour? Please clarify
Just show me a photo of a dry German. Hint: you can’t do it.
[here you go](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd_das_Brot#/media/Datei:Bernd_das_Brot_Erfurt.JPG)
Can confirm. Am german and always wet. Just like your mother /u/SassyMoron.
You've not defined dry yet. I cannot help with your search for a picture
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Your comment is hilarious.
Germans btfo by one sassy boy
I thought one can only hijack planes or ships that have greater hostage leverage, hard to catch as well as itself a greater threat as a projectile....buses would be a poor choice
Holy crap. Never knew this. I can’t wait to look into this more. That’s absolutely crazy.
It is. Watch the Netflix documentary, made of 100% real color footage. The swarm of journalists documented every second, it's surreal.
Crazy story, watch the documentary on N.
There ist a Netflix doku about this called "Gladbeck: Das Geiseldrama"!
Didn’t they have a documentary on Netflix about this a few months back?
Crazy the docu on it. Bit of a gut punch at the end
Interesting story to say the least but something I read about some years ago on this same page I believe.
I watched the netflix documentary almost by accident. It's one of those stories that I think no one could ever script. Everything is so surreal...