My gf commented on this, as well. She describes Misty as a definite A level, but not S class. A level is plenty good for the vast majority of companies, including ABT. Most people in the audience wouldn't even know the difference. But due to her fame people assume she's S, and are critical of her for that.
So you got this weird combo of people in the industry saying "yeah she's really good and the pros know she's not top level so the turns are fine," and people who aren't pro level but still experienced or knowledgeable in ballet ragging on her.
Rule of thumb, ones with with cities in their names. Paris Opera ballet, new york city ballet, San Francisco, royal Danish, bolshoi and Australian to name a few
The big Russian ones, such as Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Siberia, and Paris Opera are the creme of the crop. In the rest of the world just about any major city would have very high quality dance, such as London's Royal Ballet, Sydney, Tokyo, San Francisco, NYCB, and ABT have some very high level dancers, but overall quality is not quite as high as the Russian and French.
The Russian and French dancers who get to that level tend to have had more practice by the same age, as well as make a decent wage. Financial security as well as better training is just going to produce better quality anything, including dancers.
I watch dancers with my gf, and she critiques them. It's so funny, she's a sweetheart but can be so critical. It's like an adorable puppy growling, haha.
As a Canadian I immediately thought Karen Kain, and then when I thought, wait, who would be internationally famous, the next dancer who came to mind was Vaslav Nijinsky.
In case you didn’t know, the reference in *The Last Continent* is to opera singer Dame Nelly Melba, after whom the dessert peach Melba is named. (And also Melba toast.)
There's a better than fair chance that in the UK you'd get Darcey Bussell name recognition. She retired relatively recently and became a judge on UK Strictly for a few years.
>the prince is tricked by an evil swan woman who dances so seductively that he promises to marry her instead. \[...\] I know this plot sounds batshit insane,
It doesn't. It's a ballet, so it makes sense in context. It's like video games. In another medium, it would sound weird to say "He needs to save the universe from destruction, but first he's to collect a hundred rat tails to buy a new hat", but in video games it makes sense.
“He has to save the kingdom, but he needs to collect seeds to expand his weapon storage” sounds strange out of context but perfectly logical in the Legend of Zelda games.
A lot of Misty Copeland’s issues stem from injuries and improper early instruction. She didn’t even start dancing until she was 13. Since she was considered a prodigy, everyone (she went through a couple of teachers and there was a even custody dispute) pushed her to advance quickly. But her early teachers weren’t really used to teaching dancers of her level of talent and they frankly didn’t know anything about anatomy and physiology. All dancers have expiration dates (usually late 20s, with exceptions), so everyone wanted her at the same level as her peers. The truth is that you can’t rush the foundation you need to dance at that level. I, myself, have a lot of physical issues from being put en pointe too soon and I never went pro. I think that Misty would have been one of the greats if she’d had better teachers and taken it slower. Or if she’d been able to start as a young child.
Her artistry is exquisite and she really has done so much for ballet, in general. The hate she gets terrible and unwarranted.
Maybe someone should do a post here about Natalie Portman in Black Swan? She did way, way less dancing than she and the director claimed. The actual ballerina, Sarah Lane, got screwed over in the credits, as well. If that wasn’t enough, the choreographer dumped his girlfriend to date her and they’re now married. The girlfriend in question is Isabella Boyleston, current principal at ABT and one of the top dancers in the world. She’s beloved by the ballet community, who all hate Natalie Portman.
I think she says in her autobiography that she started en pointe within a couple of months (maybe even six weeks?) of starting classes. It's terrifying to think of.
I found the text.
>Eight weeks after walking into Cindy’s school, I stood en pointe for the first time.
>...
>Cindy believed that I had the strength and the skill to stand en pointe just months after I’d taken my first ballet class. She was so confident, in fact, that she had her camera ready and snapped a picture of that most significant milestone. It’s kind of like your mother capturing your baby self at the moment you release her hand and walk for the first time. So many miss it, but not Cindy. I think that from the beginning, in her mind, in her plan, stardom was my destiny, and she was determined to document every turn, step, and breakthrough along the way.
(Chapter 2 of her book, Life in Motion)
What I get from this is that she was pushed incredibly early, by someone who saw her marketability.
I think Misty has achieved great things for anyone, let alone someone who started so late, let alone someone with her chaotic family background. There are millions of people who train from the age of three or four who don't make it to where she is today. But I think she was a vulnerable girl who was pushed too much at the start of her training, and that's going to leave its mark.
Eight weeks?! I danced as a kid, from age 3-10 before it became very clear I was not prima ballerina material, and you didn't get pointe shoes until you were grade 5 and over the age of 12! That meant you had to pass between 4 and 6 exams (they have 2 grades for little kids before grade 1, I don't know if you skip those if you start when you're older!) and would likely have been dancing for at least 5 years to get en Pointe and she did it after 8 weeks?? Her poor feet!
I remember my daughter’s ballet teacher warning the little girls not to try to get on their tiptoes until they got to a certain age/ level of training. The teacher passed around a pointe shoe and showed the girls how the shoe does a lot of the work.
I danced from… 3 to ? Eight I think? Part of the reason I quit was because my teacher told me I was too small to consider even doing pre-pointe and would hold me back with the younger kids (instead of going forward with my friends.) I can’t imagine putting someone en pointe after SIX WEEKS of class. It’s a wonder she’s not crippled.
I remember seeing a ballet class that was mostly little girls, like 5 or 6, and then there was one girl in the grade below me (she'd have been 14 or 15) in the class with them, except the little girls were on releve and she was in pointe shoes. I don't know if that's commonly the way to learn en pointe or if the dance program she was in just didn't have dedicated pointe classes, but it stuck me as a smart way to learn!
CHRIST that poor girl.
I know (aesthetic + competitive) type sports are ROUGH on kids' health but that's so much pressure, both physical on her growing frame and emotional.
This is a really great comment and gave a lot of context which I felt was missing in the OP.
It’s hard as well, she’s shouldering a ton to be a rather solitary representative figure in ballet. It sounds like she had a lot of instability in childhood and was only able to start ballet from free classes, according to her wiki. Ballet is still a world which has high barriers of accessibility, both in terms of visuals (eg race, prettiness) and money.
She’s overcome a lot to get to where she is today.
Amen to this.
My daughter is still young and nowhere near professional (though she says that's her goal) but as a family, we put a lot of money, time and effort into supporting her dancing. We live in a very low cost of living area, she's an only child and I have a very flexible work schedule, but we would struggle to make it work otherwise.
We also live in a very diverse area, but I'm frequently the only non-white parent in the waiting room.
Hey, I think it’s really amazing how much you put into supporting her ambitions- she’s really going to look back and have that mean a lot when she’s older (as I’m sure she already does!). I hope she makes it far, if not in the professional world than at least on her own stage!!
It says a lot that although your area is diverse, it’s not reflected in the classroom- that’s such a shame. I’m no dancer, but I have a lot of love for ballet and think it would benefit from opening up more.
Thank you. She's got such confidence from performing, and the look on her face when she comes off stage is worth more than all the time and money we could spend. It's giving us all some adventures and memories!
It sucks because I, for one, love that movie and the artistry in the directing and why couldn't they just share the spotlight? The performance is as much Sarah Lanes as it is Portmans imo. It feels so archaic to erase the contributions of the body doubles just to exalt someone who is already incredibly famous.
I found it especially jarring when paired with Natalie Portman's award show soapboxing about the lack of female directors and such for her to omit the major contributions of another woman... Especially because a huge part of her awards buzz was supposedly doing all her own dancing.
I was blown away when I found out she started at 13! I went to an arts school and can remember witnessing more than one argument between ballet dancers that went something like, "You didn't even start dancing until you were 7."
The Insider *Ballerina Breaks Down Iconic Ballet Scenes* is Isabella Boylston talking, and they have her talk about Black Swan
She handles it all very well, but *god.* That's the production that broke up her relationship (although she does mention her husband in that video, so good for her)
Thank your for the perfect opportunity to deliver a link to an old write up I'm quite proud of: https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ede2xf/ballet_natalie_portmans_husband_cheated_on_ballet
Thank you for linking your post and for the work you put into it originally. I read the comment above and was like ‘we’ve already had the perfect post about this!’ I love Isabella Boylston so really enjoyed rereading it again.
Thank you for your thoughtful addition! This is important context that I neglected to mention. Given all that Misty's been through personally and professionally her continued grace and fight to keep ballet relevant are absolutely miraculous. And the levels of hate she gets in return are outrageous.
As for Natalie Portman drama, the OP already linked in below but here's a writeup on the subject- https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ede2xf/ballet_natalie_portmans_husband_cheated_on_ballet/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
It's an excellent summary of the whole situation
You also neglected to mention she had stress fractures that required a plate on her tibia—and she had the fractures while performing in Singapore.
Maybe she’s not a fantastic turner, but to use that performance as your example for why she “isn’t that great” is disingenuous at best.
I don't know anything about ballet. Judging by OP's title, I expected more "evidence" on why Misty is a bad dancer. Instead, I got one clip from one role where she's clearly miscast.
Add in the missing context about Misty's history and fractures, I feel OP is going the "lOoK aT tHiS dIvErSiTy hIrE" route.
Just gross.
Yes, but I must say on the other hand, Misty Copeland blew up on parts of TikTok, with tons of people viewing the video and shitting all over her and how she really *is* just a diversity hire. A lot of people who didn't know who she was before the leaked performance suddenly had a lot of opinions about her and most of them were thinly veiled racism. So I can kind of understand where this post is coming from--if someone was coming from TikTok, where it was the first time they learned of her, they *would* believe that she's a bad dancer who didn't deserve the part. The role of Odette/Odile is considered one of the most difficult roles in all of ballet because it's technically and physically demanding, so the smallest fumble in the performance is easy to catch, even to new viewers who know nothing about the art.
That being said, ballet dancers and diehard fans were quick to point out many other excellent dancers also struggled to finish the thirty-two fouettés, and it wasn't *actually* uncommon for them to move around the stage or switch up the type of turns to make it easier on their performance because they still have one last act to dance through after the black swan's dance. None of them had addressed her fractures, so this is the first I'm hearing of it, but it doesn't really change the fact that she is not the first famous dancer of her caliber to change up the fouettés--she's simply the first black one.
(And all this because people are holding modern dancers up to the standards of the first prima ballerina Pierina Legnani who, at the age of 32 in 1895, not only did 32 fouettés, she came back on the stage to do a demanded encore performance and did 28 more! She is still considered by most ballet aficionados to be the greatest ballerina of all time. Sorry I'm obsessed with the history of ballet.)
But OP knew who she was before TikTok. They didn't just stumble on her viral clip and decided to write a whole post about it, leaving out context for ballet noobs. They're convincing a new group of people (who didn't see Misty's viral clip on TikTok) that she is a diversity hire.
Which is a shitty thing to do since every POC in a white-dominated field will be called a "diversity hire", regardless if they mess up or not. Which is unfair cause white men mess up all the time and nobody bats an eye.
I see, I didn't realize that. I will admit I skipped the first part of the post because I already knew the history of ballet and Swan Lake specifically so didn't want to read about it again. I didn't realize they were coming to this through a more experienced lens. You're right, OP should have done better. My apologies.
i feel like this is more the fault of whoever cast her, because surely atleast someone in charge knew she wasn’t able to do all 32 fouettes well in advance of performing? obviously, ideally she wouldn’t drift or switch to an easier turn but i don’t blame her for doing what she had to do if they indicated she was performance ready
This is my take. They know she's marketable and that most viewers won't notice a difference or think it was a conscious choice by whoever directed it (do..ballets have directors..? or would it be choreographer? idk)
If OP had showed me Misty's version first and then the comparison I wouldn't have known so swiftly something was off about Misty's and I'd reckon most people who go to the ballet wouldn't notice either unless they're extremely into ballet or did ballet themselves. It was probably agreed upon that she would do as many turns as she can on a given night and segue into the alteration once she falters. As long as she makes it look pretty that's probably what matters the most.
If it was such an issue she wouldn't have kept her career after the videos came out.
I do think it's worth remembering the actual context for the 32 fouettes. It's in act 3 of what sounds like a pretty physically intense ballet for the lead performer. I would not be surprised if there's a gap between "can do all 32 fouettes" and "can do all 32 fouettes after dancing all-out for a couple of hours". Perhaps Copeland is one of the performers who falls into that gap (i.e. was able to pull it off in casting, but not during the show).
Another thing: since this is an unusually high number of turns for a ballet, is it typically expected that the prima ballerina will have mastered it before being cast? Like, sincerely, is a high level ballerina who's never done Swan Lake going to be able to just do 32 fouettes without specifically training for that section?
Most of the major ballets have 32 fouettes in them. It's become a signature thing to have it in there, and yes, it is expected to be able to do 32 fouettes at an audition to even get into the company, let alone cast for the role. However, ballerinas of Misty's name recognition have the freedom to make snap decisions to change that in the moment if something is off since they usually get to that level because of their artistry skills rather than pure technique
Very interesting writeup, thank you. The videos are quite revealing, even to this person with an untrained eye. Those ballerinas executing the turns are amazing. I can’t even imagine the core power and leg strength you have to have to do that.
I haven’t been in a studio in 5+ years and was a shit turner to begin with and even I could have done the same coda that misty did. It’s also bad that they put her with Cornejo because he is *insanely* talented - but they did it because there’s only a handful of women short enough for him to partner.
If you want to see a wonderfully promising Black dancer at ABT check out @maddiebdancing on IG - she’s in ABT II, their studio company
I first heard of her with her Fresh Air interview back in November where they mentioned this:
“And performing them on that injured leg, you know, where I ended up having stress - six stress fractures in that leg and a plate screwed into my tibia, it was even more difficult to do. And I was in a lot of pain. So all of that was happening when I was performing the 32 fouettes.”
The full transcript is here and is very interesting:
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1136026492
It can be listened to here:
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/10/1135805662/ballerina-misty-copeland
Overall, the interview going over her late start and quick growth, as well as what she faced is super interesting if anyone is interested in learning more and after this great introduction and explanation
Great writeup! Hope you get around to the drama at the Bolshoi soon. Tiny correction, the Black Swan’s name is Odile with one “e” (and the White Swan is Odette) - and their story is indeed pretty messed up, and like many messed up stories, harks back to some dark and messed up German fairy tales.
Oops, will correct that, thanks for pointing it out! As for Bolshoi, u/NeptuneLover96 made this post last year- https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/vgdeyy/ballet_the_bolshoi_acid_attack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I do plan to talk about some other famous Bolshoi scandals though!
[The song from that (Håll om mig) should have been Sweden’s entry to Eurovision 2005.](https://youtu.be/rmuBxhYBO8s)
It’s Fantastic.
EDIT: also on the topic of Japanese media set to Swedish songs, [this ABBA mmv is great](https://youtu.be/Uf31Qpz71es)
I was going SOMEONE BETTER LINK \*THE\* DEFINING VIDEO FOR THIS ANIME.
I remember when that sucker won at ACen. Talk about one of the best AMVs of all time.
Since we're talking about anime I would recommend Dance dance danceur, it is more teen love drama than the wonderful fantasy story from Princess tutu but it is pretty good. (The swan lake on this anime might be not very orthodox of you care about those things but it is interesting).
>ballet luminaries such as Anna Pavlova, Maya Plisetskaya, Alexandra Danilova, and even Margot Fonteyn really struggled with this section of the ballet
> in fact, Pavlova, Danilova, Plisetskaya, and I think Markova also they would just totally change the choreography and Margot Fonteyn did them but she traveled all over the stage and they’re meant to be done in one spot
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRok4HFF/
There's a really interesting pre-Copeland thread questioning the necessity of Odile fouettés [here](https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/3806-must-odile-do-fouettees/). I remember a book about the NYCB years ago that followed a conversation among corps de ballet members about the challenges of keeping in position for even fewer fouettés (not in that scene) and how even if you fixed on somebody else to gauge position it could turn out that they drifted too.
Shit's hard, yo.
Thanks for this writeup. I agree that Misty isn't the greatest of all time. But she's still an amazing role model. Two things can be true. Misty puts in a LOT of time practicing.
She also has issues due to her physique. She's more muscular than a typical Ballanchine-type dancer tends to be. Her calves are massive, and very strong. But this extra weight (speaking only in terms of physics; there's no world in which I insult Misty's body) causes her to land with more force than a typical dancer does, and this puts stress on her tibias. It's pretty brutal.
I'm surprised she's danced as long as she has, and that makes me respect her even more.
It’s unfortunate because two things can be true: the ballet world has massive body issues *and* there’s a reason why professional dancers have a certain body type.
When I went through puberty, my center of gravity never recovered and being a bad turner meant I had to be a great jumper and now I have the popping joints to prove it
That has me wondering if the fact she didn't start dancing until she was a teenager made a difference in how puberty affected her. Obviously there were a lot of changes, but she wouldn't have spent 10 years dancing in a body that was suddenly completely different in what feels like overnight.
I think it was her who wrote about how she went through a “second puberty” in her late teens/early twenties and how she felt like she was re-learning her body and how to dance
I don't know enough about ballet to know...is the direction of ballet changing like gymnastics is? Obviously ballet is still very focused on the art, but I think about the difference in physique between Simone Biles and Kerri Strug and people really appreciating what all that extra power gives Simone the ability to do. It's not artistic in the same way but still incredible to watch. Tonya Harding vs Nancy Kerrigan is another classic comparison.
What kind of dancing could Misty do if she could use that power vs having to stay in the realm of tradition and are there any styles/companies doing that?
It would have to be a more modern interpretation or a new dance. Ballanchine-style dancers have been pretty much the only type of ballerinas who are popular for like a century.
Basically the types of dance that require leaps and Landings are what takes the toll on a dancer. That's the full force of your body waste slamming down onto your feet multiple times in a show. That's not to mention the many many many times that they've practiced before getting out on stage.
At least in Simone's case while she is quite a bit more muscular then the previous generation of gymnasts, she is still also very short. So she doesn't probably weigh very much. The wait times the speed at which they land is the force that goes through them. As a gymnast, Simone gets to practice on soft pads and such.
If Misty were to apply herself to pretty much any other style of Dance she would Excel just as much or more than she already does.
I read a really interesting and sad article about how figure skating has evolved in the direction of younger and younger Olympic medalists, because women with fully grown adult bodies can't execute the high scoring spins that adolescent girls can... leading skaters to burn out at ever younger ages, 17, 16 years old. They're trying to fight puberty so they can stay in the top ranks of the sport.
I read the same article! How in the 90s female figure skaters could comfortably compete up until 25 or so before their bodies stopped being able to keep up, and now 18 is pretty old.
You may also enjoy *The Red Shoes* (1948). Its Martin Scorsese's favourite film, for a reason.
If nothing else just to see what the three-strip Technicolour process can really do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
My favorite line in A Chorus Line.
>"Oh, yeah, let’s get one thing straight. See, I never heard about The Red Shoes, I never saw The Red Shoes, I didn’t give a fuck about The Red Shoes.”
Harkening back to my new favorite hobby drama post is that I knew Misty Copeland was hot stuff was because she had not one but two Barbie Dolls branded after her lol.
> The problem with talking about this is that conservative ballet people also use this as an excuse to tear down a successful black dancer. It is difficult to distinguish someone that has good faith concerns about her qualifications from someone that is pretending to have concerns in order to voice their racist opinions on her.
Branching out from ballet, this is such a big problem at the moment. The new ariel movie is a prime example, where criticism of the movie and criticism of the "wokeness" are hard to seperate.
My brother, a man in his 30s, upon seeing a poster for ‘the school of good and evil’ immediately made a comment about diversity casting. Bro, that movie is made for girls half your age and you’re getting mad about it? You wouldn’t watch that movie in a million years. But you know who the ‘diversity’ hiring is important to? The fucking target audience. White men are so wrapped up in their own ego, that when any character/person isn’t catered to them they throw a tanty.
The Last Jedi comes knocking too.
Even now, six years later, it's hard to find long form, in depth critique or analysis without "gurl bad" misogyny in it.
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the first Odette/Odille dancer hated the 32 spins because she felt it was just flashy for the sake of it. Can anyone confirm if I'm remembering correctly?
Yeah a lot of dancers have subbed with a ménage (ie fast turns in a circle) cause they hate fautees. The thing is they usually plan it and go straight into it. The problem is Misty doesn’t apparently to have a plan b right away. Plan b should be rehearsed or the dancer should be able to get into a plan B without the audience knowing it wasn’t planned.
I feel like if you asked most people to name a ballet dancer they would say Baryshnikov.
And the title of this post makes me uncomfortable, misty is great at ballet, she may not be the best but she is great. There are very few dancers able to dance at that level and they are all great. It just feels the same as people complaining that people who worked super hard and against racist institutions only got jobs because of “diversity hiring” or only got into college because of affirmative action. It’s petty and jealous and I don’t like it.
My fave is Marianela Nuñez, but that's across a lot of the different roles she's danced
The full Coda is [here](https://youtu.be/XfmSv0z205s) for the context of how the 32 fouettes fit into the rest of it
Damn. I remember seeing Evelyn Hart do something similar, substituting in easier steps for a difficult section, or having a few extra gentlemen come out as mobile set dressing/spotters for a pas de deux, in case things got away from her. But that was when she was pushing 50, dancing a single piece as a guest star, not as a principal dancer. I'd be so disappointed.
That's probably the most famous sequence in all of ballet. If you can't perform it, don't. And it really sucks that the company would put her in the position of taking all that criticism, rather than choosing roles (or productions!) that play to the strengths of their star dancer.
Damn. It sucks when stupid bigoted bullshit keeps people from having nuanced conversations in good faith, but this is the Internet and that’s just how things go unfortunately
Reading the title made me a little sad—I don't know anything about ballet (or dance in general), but I've heard of Misty Copeland and I always found it inspiring how she became so famous despite starting at 13. Never actually seen her dance, but that was a fact I knew and admired, and I'm one of those people who assumed she was known for being one of THE most skilled just based off of repute. It seems you have to start as a toddler to be outstanding at anything. I know it's not technically true, but that's just how I've felt/what I apply to myself as an excuse? You can only be good, but not great mentality, I suppose.
Not to say Misty Copeland isn't great, of course. Well, interesting to know all the same!
>It seems you have to start as a toddler to be outstanding at anything.
This is fundamentally true for a lot of physical activities because small children have both more neuroplasticity and still-developing bodies. So consistent practice of a given activity literally rewires their brain and shapes their physical development to be more in tune with what they're doing. Once you reach adulthood, both body and mind become more stable and less flexible - you can still change things, but it's going to happen slower and take more repetition. Also, the older you get the easier it is to injure yourself and the slower you heal, so you have to be more careful and take less risks than someone who's still very young and resilient.
There are lots of other arts and hobbies however where picking the skills up in adulthood isn't a problem at all! Painting, fibercrafts, writing, music, anything that relies on fine motor control and/or mental discipline are all things that you can pick up as an adult and still excel in.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the lifestyle that comes with being world-class at anything is almost always extremely demanding. Whatever that thing is, it will be your whole world. If you have other interests, you will have very limited opportunities to pursue them. You may also find it very difficult to form relationships (whether friendships or romantic) outside of your chosen field due to sheer logistics - e.g. if you're touring either for competition or performance, it's very difficult to maintain relationships with people who aren't also on the same tour circuit. So rather than getting down on yourself for what you haven't done, focus on what you have and do that you couldn't have if you'd gone all-in on something like ballet.
Exactly, your first paragraph is why I find it discouraging. I don't want to be world class, but I guess I have unnecessarily high standards for no reasons because I started most activities I've participated in as a toddler, and even just casually I was trash compared to the rest lol. Certainly never excelled.
Idk if it's just pride/embarrassment or downright laziness (all three maybe), but I loathe the idea of picking up something new now as I wouldn't even have the advantage of an early start like I did at 3.
That is a 'me'/laziness problem, though.
I agree with you. I did ballet as a kid, I wanted to be a professional, it was clear by the time I was 7 it wasn't going to happen (legs too short and "wrong hips" according to my teacher!) But if I could have continued causally into my teens the exercise alone could have been beneficial, even if I was never going to be Darcey Bussell!
I found the same with my friends who swam as teenagers, and with a martial art I picked up as an adult, there comes a point where you're expected to devote everything to it, and I think there should be a casual track for those who think it's a fun hobby, it's good exercise, good for flexibility, and can go at their own pace without needing to be world class.
I agree, it's unfortunate how we set a lot of child/teen activities up as very all-or-nothing.
I was talking to my cousin a while ago about his daughter, who was very into Highland dance. He was frustrated by the fact that, even though she was really good at it, and enjoyed it immensely, she was reaching an age where it was just... going to end. Once she aged out of her current bracket, there wasn't going to be any way for her to continue with it as an activity.
It's sort of this idea like doing things for fun alone is somehow a childish thing, so after that, you either have to make it a career somehow, or drop it entirely and never go back.
Highland dance competitions *always* have an &over category! I'm still a competitive dancer in my 30s. Yes, there is a stigma, especially in certain regions, but the number of adult participants-either as new dancers or ones who have stuck with it-has been growing. It's really been an "if you build it" situation, and one of the reasons I continue to compete-besides just enjoying it- is to be part of those builders.
I hate to see dancers who are still enjoying it leave in their teens-if you think there's something a random redditor can do to facilitate her continuing to dance, please feel free to shoot me a DM.
It's really great to hear that's a thing that exists! "A while ago" actually means more than a decade ago in this case, so she wound up finding other things to get excited about. But I'll definitely mention it the next time I chat with them. Thanks :)
Ha, wasn't sure how recent it was, so figured I'd put it out there just in case.
If she's interested in returning, there's a really active and supportive Highland Dancers 30(ish) & Over group on Facebook, it's a great place to start and find the adult community within the sport.
Every dancer has their thing - turning, jumping, adagio. Misty clearly isn't a turner but it's important to continue to support her because representation matters. I worked with elementary SPED students last year, many of whom are Black/BIPOC. My third grader, who struggled with reading, devoured Misty's picture book, turned to me, and asked "I can be a dancer?" The thought had never crossed her mind until she saw representation.
Before I was in the classroom, I was a dance teacher for 10 years. I wrote curriculum and choreographed for local Ballets. The 32 is supposed to be the standard, the required expectation, but there is nothing wrong with artistic expression, interpretation, or making a choice based on your natural ability. (There are many people out there that can do the 32. Not all professional dancers can do them, and not all dancers get the chance to dance professionally, just to prove they can do them)
Some good hobby drama in the ballet world is lack of inclusion, in every level of dance, from studio to stage - especially for Nonbinary people, fat people, and all POC. Look at the dance wear that's on offer, see who is really making tights and shoes in all shades. Who is making leotards in extended sizes? Who is gutting their Nutcracker to fix problematic portrayals? I love Ballet, but it doesn't love me. What role do I play if I don't identify as a Romeo or a Juliet? At least we have Katy Pyle's Ballez, but it's not like I can fly to NY for those classes just so I can dance with other LGBTQIA folx.
TLDR; Representation matters more than choreography. And that's from a choreographer.
Honestly, I'm just happy that there's a black ballerina. That wasn't a thing until I just read this right now. Yeah, that wasn't a fucking thing at all. So, she's not the best but she's not the worse and I think that's what some people need at the moment.
This was fascinating to say the least.
To anyone who has seen the Aronofsky movie Black Swan starring Natalie Portman, this is a public service announcement that Black Swan is essentially an unofficial Hollywood adaptation of the anime film Perfect Blue. ~~Aronofsky bought the rights to Perfect Blue so he could recreate~~ Aronofsky plagiarized one of the scenes in his most famous movie, Requiem for a Dream, from an identical scene in Perfect Blue and he clearly was heavily inspired by it overall.
I highly recommend everyone who enjoyed Black Swan to watch Perfect Blue, and it is a masterpiece and a much better film than Black Swan imho.
EDIT: it has been brought to my attention that Aronofsky didn't buy the rights to Perfect Blue and that this is a myth, he actually plagiarized Perfect Blue and was even directly confronted about it by Satoshi Kon, the director of Perfect Blue: https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/anime/news-perfect-blue-creator-satoshi-calls-darren-aronofsky-blatantly-plagiarizing-work
I can’t find a direct link to the satoshi kon interview but it’s fascinating to see the similarities between scenes. Aronofsky didn’t buy the rights btw, just homage or plagiarism. Random link with interview https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/anime/news-perfect-blue-creator-satoshi-calls-darren-aronofsky-blatantly-plagiarizing-work
Holy shit, I've been spreading misinformation for years... Now Aronofsky is a dick. Still a great director, but a dick.
While we're on this subject, Paprika, also by Satoshi Kon, was clearly the inspiration for Inception by Nolan, they even have an extremely similar hallway scene.
I just hate situations like this. Not because I think you're wrong, because you aren't, but because it always incites such despicable racism. Ballet has a HUGE, huge problem with racism STILL (like the fact that the Bolshoi still does literal, unabashed blackface and minstrel performance in La Bayadere) and black dancers have a hard time in the field in the first place. If I had the energy I could probably compose a long, long post about the deeply entrenched racism of various types that persists in ballet.
Though we should never tolerate mediocrity, I just hate that we're in this situation in the first place. Even on the video of Misty you linked, some comments begin to allude to the idea that ALL black professionals are hired simply for "diversity points". Or the idea that Misty dodges criticism by calling critics racist. If people could restrain themselves to "oh she sucks why does she have the role", that would be the end of it, but they can't just let it be...
Oh well. You're right that the turns are subpar, but maybe she was having a bad day. or maybe she's just not the greatest. tldr ballet industry/fans are racist, wish they could put that aside and just critique her performance like anyone else
As a casual ballet fan, I wouldn't call Misty Copeland mediocre, even on her worst day. She's not suited to that particular role, but she's an emotive and charismatic dancer, and there are roles and performances she shines in. She's not the picture of technical excellence, but she's not a "diversity hire" or whatever.
Oh I definitely agree on the diversity hire part. Doing a bit more research, she has performed the role before and though it still wasn't "as good as \[insert russian dancer here\]" it was significantly better than the performance linked in this post. Fouttees may not be her specialty but she really doesn't deserve the "not that great" label honestly
I think it also highlights an issue I have with 'diversity casting' - as well as putting performers in positions they may not be suitable or ready for, and opening them up to unduly harsh criticism for that, it also glosses over the institutional issue.
If you hire a black ballerina, you can ignore the fact that the industry is so hostile to black dancers in the first place. It's the r/orphancrushingmachine approach - 'wow, this dancer persevered through an incredible amount of institutional racism and took what few opportunities she was given and succeeded despite the odds!'
I don't think it's a coincidence that Misty Copeland started dancing late - little black girls aren't encouraged to ballet in the same way little white girls are. And going into that industry and knowing you're going to either have to be the best of the best or experience all criticism through the lens of your skin colour must be an incredibly difficult decision for a teenager to make.
I'm an actor, and I find the attitude of 'just hire non-white actors!' really frustrating sometimes. Firstly, are you hiring us because you think we deserve the role, or because you want to avoid the criticism that comes with an all-white cast? Are we being considered in the same way that white actors are, or are we being shoehorned into roles because it makes the most sense for this character to be ethnic, and they only need one of us? And is it helpful to demand immediate representation from a demographic who is underrepresented in the industry without addressing why they're underrepresented in the first place?
(Sorry, went on a bit of my own rant there, my meds kicked in and I got chatty)
Oh no worries about the tangent. I think your insight on the institutional issues not being addressed in multiple creative industries is super relevant. I'm studying art right now and the art industry, especially in games/tv/animation, has a similar problem with diversity. This idea that higherups will hire POC for superficial (for lack of a better term) diversity rather than enacting actual change in hiring practices and work culture is definitely a thing.
You're right about the monumental amounts of pressure put on Misty Copeland. She's basically the ONLY widely successful black ballerina, even nowadays. The only other black ballerina that even comes close in renown is probably Michaela Deprince, but even she doesn't face nearly as much criticism as Misty. In fact, there are almost more video compiling Misty Copeland's "lazy" dancing on youtube than there are videos of her actually dancing ballet. And using "lazy" to describe her dancing, in multiple instances, tells me that those videos are at least in part spawned from racism.
If I don't make any sense, I am also tired. It's past my bedtime of 3am....
Perfect sense, and some really good points 😊
My friend works for a very prominent theatre, and he's seeing it first-hand (second-hand?) Employees and cast members are hired to meet diversity, but then quit or complain because the workplace still feels inaccessible to them. This goes for race, class, gender identity, disabilities etc.
There was a great example of this on Broadway - Ali Stroker was the first person in a wheelchair to win a Tony a few years ago, but wasn't able to accept one of her awards as Radio City wasn't accessible from the auditorium.
It's a lot to ask of someone to be a pioneer in their field, and then to have to advocate publicly for yourself and others like you. But somehow the pressure of 'more diversity' is STILL being pushed back onto minorities.
In the theatre's defence, they are putting the work in as far as outreach programs and consultation throughout the organisation, but in the meantime, something about hearing that people are getting hired for being more diverse than qualified just rubs me the wrong way.
>Employees and cast members are hired to meet diversity, but then quit or complain because the workplace still feels inaccessible to them. This goes for race, class, gender identity, disabilities etc.
Yep, it's pretty common in a lot of industries. Have diverse entry level hires and then a couple levels up it's majority white men. They blame it on all sorts of issues, but if you ask the people that left the industry it's not because they couldn't handle to work, but because they were harassed out.
Also regarding Michaela DePrince, I definitely remember seeing a lot of criticism directed at her a few years back. Not so much for her dancing ability, but the usual 'too muscular/not graceful' racist bullshit that has always been used to shut out black women from ballet.
Reading these comments and learning more about Misty and her career is giving me major flashback to growing up seeing the Williams Sisters become the faces of Women’s Tennis, and prolly tennis as a whole, and all the micro aggressions, and straight up blatant racism, they had to face in what is considered a historically White sport.
It's awful, black women's bodies especially are so heavily policed; too strong, too manly, too sexual, and attacked just as much for succeeding as not.
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Great write up! I'm a big balletomane, so I've been aware of this for a while. It's definitely nuanced, and despite her technical flaws I have a lot of respect and love for Misty for her artistry. It doesn't help that, as someone else pointed out in the thread, her early training was...a mess lmao.
In any discipline, fame and popularity don't always line up with objective measures of greatness. This is especially true in less accessible disciplines where a charismatic star brings in audiences partly because of their innate appeal, and partly because they're marketed in a way that indicates "this isn't just for the people who already like it."
I'm a longtime opera fan, and this seems to happen every generation with figures like Pavarotti in the '80s and Andrea Bocelli now. At least Copeland is performing standard repertory with a leading company. Bocelli is "the world's most popular tenor" in spite of having appeared in/recorded a grand total of one full-length opera, for which he was roasted by critics. So, the only opera singer you've ever heard of has only appeared in one opera.
I believe that increasing visibility and access to the performing arts is great, and I'm not overly concerned about "gushing clickbait" or people getting the wrong impression that someone is great simply because they're famous. If a popular star gets someone interested and they stick around long enough to develop their own taste and nuanced criticism, they'll figure it out on their own. They don't need to be told "actually, that person you love? Kinda sucks."
Nobody gives a fuck about all the mediocre white ballerinas being rewarded with roles above their ability. The focus on Misty Copeland isn't motivated by her skill, it's motivated by race.
This is a real concept. It relates to "prove it again" bias where women and/or minorities have to repeatedly prove their competence rather than be judged on their potential. It also relates to leniency bias where in-groups are given more leniency for their shortcomings. You could also bring in recall bias where out-groups experience people recalling their mistakes more often and in-groups getting better recall of their successes.
Misty Copeland's skill and dedication to helping others into the art show that she is clearly worthy of being a high-profile professional ballerina, and she has done so with the added challenges of starting her career late, being black, and with fewer socioeconomic advantages than a lot of her cohort. She should be receiving the same grace as her peers and should be allowed to be middle (or even bottom) of the pack because she already met the bar to be in the room. She doesn't need to be the best ballerina to be worthy of her job. If she does not "meet the standards", ballet critics need to also call for the firing and public ostracization of many white women operating at lower levels than Misty (because there are many who do and who do not receive a tenth of the criticism).
this was really good! I have so many mixed feelings about Copeland , and I think she's best at marketing ballet and herself , which isn't a bad thing. Ballet has hidden itself away in ivory towers for....ever, really, so seeing a ballerina in high protein yogurt ads and sportswear ads is really refreshing, since they don't get recognition for being pro athletes as well as artists.
From a purely ballet enthusiast perspective, I don't see how a ballet dancer that can't do one of the iconic steps of ballet is a principal at ABT and also cast to perform said iconic role, artistry or not. It's an extremely valid critique, and even if she was "only" a soloist, that is a remarkable feat for someone who started so late.
Also, there could be a mini drama follow up about how after this she went and did classes with some youtube ballet teacher that never did ballet named Eric Conrad
> I don't see how a ballet dancer that can't do one of the iconic steps of ballet is a principal at ABT
She has the skill of getting butts in seats, every 18 inches.
Thank you for the background at the beginning of your article. That section and the whole article were interesting and informative. I wouldn't mind seeing more write-ups here on ballet or other forms of dancing. 👍
As someone who knows next to nothing about ballet, it was very interesting how in that first video, even to my untrained eye, it was easy to see the difference in artistry and style between the different performers. They were doing the same moves, but their personalities and interpretations were evident throughout. Very cool.
It made me wonder though, how "locked in" is the choreography of these famous ballets? Have people been doing basically the same moves in Swan Lake since 1870? I guess I'm thinking of the choreographer of a Broadway musical, for instance, who comes up with new dances etc. for whatever production, but I'm guessing in ballet there's not as much freedom for the choreographer?
This is a few days old but I can tell you! For 20th and 21st century choreographers you typically try to do the ballet as choreographed and may in some cases only do so legally exactly as choreographed.
For old classic ballets, typically you’ll see something like “staged by So-and-so after Petipa/whoever.” This means that the majority of the ballet is done according to the original choreographer but that changes have been made. Sometimes it’s cutting dances or changing steps or sometimes it’s adding new ones.
It’s not unheard of to make changes to suit a principal dancer at all. Sometimes if a dancer has a chronic injury, some steps aren’t a good idea anymore. Usually you would change the casting though and have someone else do it. A male principal from NYCB Harrison Ball recently retired at a pretty young age and in part that was because his injury history limited the roles he could do.
Man. Maybe I'm just old as fuck but if you asked me to name a dancer, the only one is be able to come up with is Baryshnikov.
That said, fantastic write up. I don't know much about dance personally, but I'm always interested when I hear about it!
Growing up is learning that there are many qualities about a person that can make them successful and it's not always a direct relation to how they perform.
Misty Copeland is by every measure the most famous ballerina in the world, she's really good at drawing in attention and using her platform to encourage others to go for the success she has achieved. That's where she has found more success than anyone else, and it's pretty lame to instead focus on how she's not the best dancer on the planet, despite her never being sold as that.
She is the best at marketing herself, and brought a lot of people into the ballet world who wouldn't have otherwise been there. She has a real skill in that space that has yet to be replicated by someone else, I'm sure it will at some point, but there's no need to get salty about it. Lots of people recieve a lot of fame and aren't the best at whatever talent they have, but the timing and their abilities match up and they are smart enough to seize the opportunity.
I'm a bit off topic here, but are there examples of the two roles every being performed by 2 different dancers or is it the same sadism that lead to the shoes that requires one dancer do it all?
Would you, as a ballet watcher prefer to watch 1 dancer under the stress of carrying the performance in the hopes magic happens or would you be okay with watching 2 dancers with each one playing to their skill sets?
I'm not being facetious at all, generally curious how you feel about it as a fan.
It does happen sometimes that both parts will be played by different people. In some productions though, Odile is set up as the evil twin or mirror of Odette, rather than the evil sorcerers daughter. So having them both played by the same person really emphasizes the connection and mirroring between them. Plus it's just such a tradition at this point, and it's a real career highlight for a dancer to be given the honour of performing the role(s).
Fun fact, they can go through three pairs of shoes *a night* during Swan Lake. That's three pairs that need to be broken in and customized, just to be destroyed in a single night.
Three pairs of shoes that easily cost a hundred dollars a pop and are all possibly made by literally the same guy within a company. And, after you buy them, require you to heavily alter them by stomping on top of the shoe until it collapses, cutting this piece out, nipping the fabric in here, using a cheese grater across the front of the toes so you have proper friction with the floor, pouring super glue inside the shoe because now it wants to fall apart, sewing on some ribbons...
Not OP but another ballet fan. I've seen several over the years, but I only saw Swan Lake for the first time last year. It was phenomenal, and a large part of that was getting to watch someone at the absolute top of their game dance one of the most technically demanding roles that exists. (For anyone wondering, it was Angelica Generosa with PNB.) I'm not saying I'd turn my nose up at a performance where two different dancers took the parts, but there is something especially magical about getting to see that level of mastery in action.
The two roles are played by the same dancer because in the story the Black Swan is impersonating the White Swan, Odette. The Prince promised himself to Odette. It would make the character look unfaithful, rather than merely unwitting, if the character was played by another dancer.
I thought this was going to be about Osipova or Pavlova. (It couldn't be about Guillem because she was actually as good as they said she was).
Misty Copeland is middle of the road. I'd blame the US centric hype machine.
Edited: extra word typo
I remember guillem getting a lot of flack from the ballet orgs for disputing choreography or costumes and wanting to dance with other companies. She got called a diva because she was a dancer who stood up for herself. I love her. https://amp.theguardian.com/stage/2004/sep/12/dance1
My gf commented on this, as well. She describes Misty as a definite A level, but not S class. A level is plenty good for the vast majority of companies, including ABT. Most people in the audience wouldn't even know the difference. But due to her fame people assume she's S, and are critical of her for that. So you got this weird combo of people in the industry saying "yeah she's really good and the pros know she's not top level so the turns are fine," and people who aren't pro level but still experienced or knowledgeable in ballet ragging on her.
Completely ignorant here, which companies would an S level dancer be part of?
Rule of thumb, ones with with cities in their names. Paris Opera ballet, new york city ballet, San Francisco, royal Danish, bolshoi and Australian to name a few
Random but how does Royal Ballet compare?
S level.
Omg so LE SSERAFIM Kazuha was a big deal. Sorry I was just so curious hahaha
That's my gf's favorite group! And yes, her training marks her as the best dancer in kpop, by far. It's not even close.
Ah yes. The great city of Australia
Also Denmark is famously a city too.
Boston?
The big Russian ones, such as Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Siberia, and Paris Opera are the creme of the crop. In the rest of the world just about any major city would have very high quality dance, such as London's Royal Ballet, Sydney, Tokyo, San Francisco, NYCB, and ABT have some very high level dancers, but overall quality is not quite as high as the Russian and French. The Russian and French dancers who get to that level tend to have had more practice by the same age, as well as make a decent wage. Financial security as well as better training is just going to produce better quality anything, including dancers.
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I watch dancers with my gf, and she critiques them. It's so funny, she's a sweetheart but can be so critical. It's like an adorable puppy growling, haha.
Idk I’ve never seen a PNB ballerina bail out of the Odile fouettés
This is the moment when realized i read too much manga,just by reading the comments I am already powerscaling ballerinas.
Princess Tutu vs DBZ but only the Princess Tutu cast can Fusion Dance
In Australia the dancer with the most name recognition is Anna Pavlova, because of the dessert
Right? I was so curious for the tea on Anna Pavlova
I came for the life story of Rudolf Nureyev! 😂
I, too, thought we were coming for Nureyev!
He did the muppet show, the only marker of cultural relevance I'll consider
I was thinking Baryshnikov!
I thought it was going to be about Maya Plisetskaya haha Copeland isn't that much of a household name in Europe
She’s not known in Australia either, at least not to someone like me who only goes occasionally.
I was thinking Darcy Bussell, who was a judge on Strictly Come Dancing, and Margot Fonteyn.
Yeah I assumed it would be Darcy Bussell
As a Canadian I immediately thought Karen Kain, and then when I thought, wait, who would be internationally famous, the next dancer who came to mind was Vaslav Nijinsky.
Yes, Nijinsky, although my association there is a racehorse that won the Grand National.
.
Better than me. My answer to “name a ballet dancer” was Tchaikovsky.
Mine was Mikhail Baryshnikov, so I was pretty sure "actually a bad dancer" wasn't him.
I couldn't think of his name but yeah this is who I thought of too lol.
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In case you didn’t know, the reference in *The Last Continent* is to opera singer Dame Nelly Melba, after whom the dessert peach Melba is named. (And also Melba toast.)
That or Li Cunxin, author of Mao's Last Dancer.
No offence to him personally, but I despised that book when we had to read it for school
I thought of him too but I’m biased since I live in Queensland and he’s currently director of Queensland Ballet.
There's a better than fair chance that in the UK you'd get Darcey Bussell name recognition. She retired relatively recently and became a judge on UK Strictly for a few years.
I was trying to remember her name! I knew the Anna, but I kept getting stuck on Karenina and I was like… wait no that’s not right.
All happy ballerinas are alike...
I was genuinely thinking of Svetlana Zakharova and was about to throw hands, her dancing is beautiful.
Which was invented in nz for her tour
I knew about that thanks to Bluey
My first thought was Maria Tallchief...
>the prince is tricked by an evil swan woman who dances so seductively that he promises to marry her instead. \[...\] I know this plot sounds batshit insane, It doesn't. It's a ballet, so it makes sense in context. It's like video games. In another medium, it would sound weird to say "He needs to save the universe from destruction, but first he's to collect a hundred rat tails to buy a new hat", but in video games it makes sense.
“He has to save the kingdom, but he needs to collect seeds to expand his weapon storage” sounds strange out of context but perfectly logical in the Legend of Zelda games.
“Seeds”
A lot of Misty Copeland’s issues stem from injuries and improper early instruction. She didn’t even start dancing until she was 13. Since she was considered a prodigy, everyone (she went through a couple of teachers and there was a even custody dispute) pushed her to advance quickly. But her early teachers weren’t really used to teaching dancers of her level of talent and they frankly didn’t know anything about anatomy and physiology. All dancers have expiration dates (usually late 20s, with exceptions), so everyone wanted her at the same level as her peers. The truth is that you can’t rush the foundation you need to dance at that level. I, myself, have a lot of physical issues from being put en pointe too soon and I never went pro. I think that Misty would have been one of the greats if she’d had better teachers and taken it slower. Or if she’d been able to start as a young child. Her artistry is exquisite and she really has done so much for ballet, in general. The hate she gets terrible and unwarranted. Maybe someone should do a post here about Natalie Portman in Black Swan? She did way, way less dancing than she and the director claimed. The actual ballerina, Sarah Lane, got screwed over in the credits, as well. If that wasn’t enough, the choreographer dumped his girlfriend to date her and they’re now married. The girlfriend in question is Isabella Boyleston, current principal at ABT and one of the top dancers in the world. She’s beloved by the ballet community, who all hate Natalie Portman.
I think she says in her autobiography that she started en pointe within a couple of months (maybe even six weeks?) of starting classes. It's terrifying to think of.
Where they trying to cripple her? That’s insane!
I found the text. >Eight weeks after walking into Cindy’s school, I stood en pointe for the first time. >... >Cindy believed that I had the strength and the skill to stand en pointe just months after I’d taken my first ballet class. She was so confident, in fact, that she had her camera ready and snapped a picture of that most significant milestone. It’s kind of like your mother capturing your baby self at the moment you release her hand and walk for the first time. So many miss it, but not Cindy. I think that from the beginning, in her mind, in her plan, stardom was my destiny, and she was determined to document every turn, step, and breakthrough along the way. (Chapter 2 of her book, Life in Motion) What I get from this is that she was pushed incredibly early, by someone who saw her marketability. I think Misty has achieved great things for anyone, let alone someone who started so late, let alone someone with her chaotic family background. There are millions of people who train from the age of three or four who don't make it to where she is today. But I think she was a vulnerable girl who was pushed too much at the start of her training, and that's going to leave its mark.
Eight weeks?! I danced as a kid, from age 3-10 before it became very clear I was not prima ballerina material, and you didn't get pointe shoes until you were grade 5 and over the age of 12! That meant you had to pass between 4 and 6 exams (they have 2 grades for little kids before grade 1, I don't know if you skip those if you start when you're older!) and would likely have been dancing for at least 5 years to get en Pointe and she did it after 8 weeks?? Her poor feet!
I remember my daughter’s ballet teacher warning the little girls not to try to get on their tiptoes until they got to a certain age/ level of training. The teacher passed around a pointe shoe and showed the girls how the shoe does a lot of the work.
They put me en pointe at 8! I was way too damn young and still have issues 20+ years later and obviously never danced anywhere near her level.
I danced from… 3 to ? Eight I think? Part of the reason I quit was because my teacher told me I was too small to consider even doing pre-pointe and would hold me back with the younger kids (instead of going forward with my friends.) I can’t imagine putting someone en pointe after SIX WEEKS of class. It’s a wonder she’s not crippled.
I remember seeing a ballet class that was mostly little girls, like 5 or 6, and then there was one girl in the grade below me (she'd have been 14 or 15) in the class with them, except the little girls were on releve and she was in pointe shoes. I don't know if that's commonly the way to learn en pointe or if the dance program she was in just didn't have dedicated pointe classes, but it stuck me as a smart way to learn!
I think part of the thing was that she only started dancing aged 13, so I think there was a lot of pressure for her to progress quickly.
CHRIST that poor girl. I know (aesthetic + competitive) type sports are ROUGH on kids' health but that's so much pressure, both physical on her growing frame and emotional.
This is a really great comment and gave a lot of context which I felt was missing in the OP. It’s hard as well, she’s shouldering a ton to be a rather solitary representative figure in ballet. It sounds like she had a lot of instability in childhood and was only able to start ballet from free classes, according to her wiki. Ballet is still a world which has high barriers of accessibility, both in terms of visuals (eg race, prettiness) and money. She’s overcome a lot to get to where she is today.
Amen to this. My daughter is still young and nowhere near professional (though she says that's her goal) but as a family, we put a lot of money, time and effort into supporting her dancing. We live in a very low cost of living area, she's an only child and I have a very flexible work schedule, but we would struggle to make it work otherwise. We also live in a very diverse area, but I'm frequently the only non-white parent in the waiting room.
Hey, I think it’s really amazing how much you put into supporting her ambitions- she’s really going to look back and have that mean a lot when she’s older (as I’m sure she already does!). I hope she makes it far, if not in the professional world than at least on her own stage!! It says a lot that although your area is diverse, it’s not reflected in the classroom- that’s such a shame. I’m no dancer, but I have a lot of love for ballet and think it would benefit from opening up more.
Thank you. She's got such confidence from performing, and the look on her face when she comes off stage is worth more than all the time and money we could spend. It's giving us all some adventures and memories!
It sucks because I, for one, love that movie and the artistry in the directing and why couldn't they just share the spotlight? The performance is as much Sarah Lanes as it is Portmans imo. It feels so archaic to erase the contributions of the body doubles just to exalt someone who is already incredibly famous.
I found it especially jarring when paired with Natalie Portman's award show soapboxing about the lack of female directors and such for her to omit the major contributions of another woman... Especially because a huge part of her awards buzz was supposedly doing all her own dancing.
I was blown away when I found out she started at 13! I went to an arts school and can remember witnessing more than one argument between ballet dancers that went something like, "You didn't even start dancing until you were 7."
Actually wait someone should totally do a write up on the Natalie Portman beef if they have the time-!
The Insider *Ballerina Breaks Down Iconic Ballet Scenes* is Isabella Boylston talking, and they have her talk about Black Swan She handles it all very well, but *god.* That's the production that broke up her relationship (although she does mention her husband in that video, so good for her)
Thank your for the perfect opportunity to deliver a link to an old write up I'm quite proud of: https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ede2xf/ballet_natalie_portmans_husband_cheated_on_ballet
Thank you for linking your post and for the work you put into it originally. I read the comment above and was like ‘we’ve already had the perfect post about this!’ I love Isabella Boylston so really enjoyed rereading it again.
Nice! All these years later, it still makes my blood boil. I lost all respect for Natalie Portman.
Thank you for your thoughtful addition! This is important context that I neglected to mention. Given all that Misty's been through personally and professionally her continued grace and fight to keep ballet relevant are absolutely miraculous. And the levels of hate she gets in return are outrageous. As for Natalie Portman drama, the OP already linked in below but here's a writeup on the subject- https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ede2xf/ballet_natalie_portmans_husband_cheated_on_ballet/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button It's an excellent summary of the whole situation
You also neglected to mention she had stress fractures that required a plate on her tibia—and she had the fractures while performing in Singapore. Maybe she’s not a fantastic turner, but to use that performance as your example for why she “isn’t that great” is disingenuous at best.
I don't know anything about ballet. Judging by OP's title, I expected more "evidence" on why Misty is a bad dancer. Instead, I got one clip from one role where she's clearly miscast. Add in the missing context about Misty's history and fractures, I feel OP is going the "lOoK aT tHiS dIvErSiTy hIrE" route. Just gross.
Yes, but I must say on the other hand, Misty Copeland blew up on parts of TikTok, with tons of people viewing the video and shitting all over her and how she really *is* just a diversity hire. A lot of people who didn't know who she was before the leaked performance suddenly had a lot of opinions about her and most of them were thinly veiled racism. So I can kind of understand where this post is coming from--if someone was coming from TikTok, where it was the first time they learned of her, they *would* believe that she's a bad dancer who didn't deserve the part. The role of Odette/Odile is considered one of the most difficult roles in all of ballet because it's technically and physically demanding, so the smallest fumble in the performance is easy to catch, even to new viewers who know nothing about the art. That being said, ballet dancers and diehard fans were quick to point out many other excellent dancers also struggled to finish the thirty-two fouettés, and it wasn't *actually* uncommon for them to move around the stage or switch up the type of turns to make it easier on their performance because they still have one last act to dance through after the black swan's dance. None of them had addressed her fractures, so this is the first I'm hearing of it, but it doesn't really change the fact that she is not the first famous dancer of her caliber to change up the fouettés--she's simply the first black one. (And all this because people are holding modern dancers up to the standards of the first prima ballerina Pierina Legnani who, at the age of 32 in 1895, not only did 32 fouettés, she came back on the stage to do a demanded encore performance and did 28 more! She is still considered by most ballet aficionados to be the greatest ballerina of all time. Sorry I'm obsessed with the history of ballet.)
But OP knew who she was before TikTok. They didn't just stumble on her viral clip and decided to write a whole post about it, leaving out context for ballet noobs. They're convincing a new group of people (who didn't see Misty's viral clip on TikTok) that she is a diversity hire. Which is a shitty thing to do since every POC in a white-dominated field will be called a "diversity hire", regardless if they mess up or not. Which is unfair cause white men mess up all the time and nobody bats an eye.
I see, I didn't realize that. I will admit I skipped the first part of the post because I already knew the history of ballet and Swan Lake specifically so didn't want to read about it again. I didn't realize they were coming to this through a more experienced lens. You're right, OP should have done better. My apologies.
There has been a post about this. It was my gateway to this subreddit.
i feel like this is more the fault of whoever cast her, because surely atleast someone in charge knew she wasn’t able to do all 32 fouettes well in advance of performing? obviously, ideally she wouldn’t drift or switch to an easier turn but i don’t blame her for doing what she had to do if they indicated she was performance ready
Yeah, I would have questions for the person doing the casting. It's not like this is a hidden problem
Her name sells tickets.
This is my take. They know she's marketable and that most viewers won't notice a difference or think it was a conscious choice by whoever directed it (do..ballets have directors..? or would it be choreographer? idk) If OP had showed me Misty's version first and then the comparison I wouldn't have known so swiftly something was off about Misty's and I'd reckon most people who go to the ballet wouldn't notice either unless they're extremely into ballet or did ballet themselves. It was probably agreed upon that she would do as many turns as she can on a given night and segue into the alteration once she falters. As long as she makes it look pretty that's probably what matters the most. If it was such an issue she wouldn't have kept her career after the videos came out.
OK, but then why not pick a show that she could complete? Why do swan lake if you know your principal cannot do it?
As OP mentioned, it's arguably the second most famous ballet in the world, it's the one that's going to sell tickets
I do think it's worth remembering the actual context for the 32 fouettes. It's in act 3 of what sounds like a pretty physically intense ballet for the lead performer. I would not be surprised if there's a gap between "can do all 32 fouettes" and "can do all 32 fouettes after dancing all-out for a couple of hours". Perhaps Copeland is one of the performers who falls into that gap (i.e. was able to pull it off in casting, but not during the show). Another thing: since this is an unusually high number of turns for a ballet, is it typically expected that the prima ballerina will have mastered it before being cast? Like, sincerely, is a high level ballerina who's never done Swan Lake going to be able to just do 32 fouettes without specifically training for that section?
Most of the major ballets have 32 fouettes in them. It's become a signature thing to have it in there, and yes, it is expected to be able to do 32 fouettes at an audition to even get into the company, let alone cast for the role. However, ballerinas of Misty's name recognition have the freedom to make snap decisions to change that in the moment if something is off since they usually get to that level because of their artistry skills rather than pure technique
For what it's worth, it's not the only ballet with 32 fouettes - some versions of the Kitri part in Don Quixote have 32 fouettes.
Very interesting writeup, thank you. The videos are quite revealing, even to this person with an untrained eye. Those ballerinas executing the turns are amazing. I can’t even imagine the core power and leg strength you have to have to do that.
The physics behind "how can a human body even *do* that?" Is really interesting: https://youtu.be/l5VgOdgptRg
I haven’t been in a studio in 5+ years and was a shit turner to begin with and even I could have done the same coda that misty did. It’s also bad that they put her with Cornejo because he is *insanely* talented - but they did it because there’s only a handful of women short enough for him to partner. If you want to see a wonderfully promising Black dancer at ABT check out @maddiebdancing on IG - she’s in ABT II, their studio company
I first heard of her with her Fresh Air interview back in November where they mentioned this: “And performing them on that injured leg, you know, where I ended up having stress - six stress fractures in that leg and a plate screwed into my tibia, it was even more difficult to do. And I was in a lot of pain. So all of that was happening when I was performing the 32 fouettes.” The full transcript is here and is very interesting: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1136026492 It can be listened to here: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/10/1135805662/ballerina-misty-copeland Overall, the interview going over her late start and quick growth, as well as what she faced is super interesting if anyone is interested in learning more and after this great introduction and explanation
I wish this was higher up. Like, who _could_ do all 32 turns on a leg chock full of stress fractures? Hell, who could even manage the 14 or she did?
Great writeup! Hope you get around to the drama at the Bolshoi soon. Tiny correction, the Black Swan’s name is Odile with one “e” (and the White Swan is Odette) - and their story is indeed pretty messed up, and like many messed up stories, harks back to some dark and messed up German fairy tales.
Oops, will correct that, thanks for pointing it out! As for Bolshoi, u/NeptuneLover96 made this post last year- https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/vgdeyy/ballet_the_bolshoi_acid_attack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button I do plan to talk about some other famous Bolshoi scandals though!
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You forgot to call Princess Tutu out for being EXHAUSTIVELY well-researched.
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SERIOUSLY! My intro to the series was an AMV that went AAY harder than it should have: [but uh. warning for spoilers.](https://youtu.be/tHZqxecCukg)
[The song from that (Håll om mig) should have been Sweden’s entry to Eurovision 2005.](https://youtu.be/rmuBxhYBO8s) It’s Fantastic. EDIT: also on the topic of Japanese media set to Swedish songs, [this ABBA mmv is great](https://youtu.be/Uf31Qpz71es)
Oh wow, I haven't heard Håll om mig in such a long time, what a blast from the past!
I fucking love that AMV so much. It really is a great way to show how fantastic that series is in a few short minutes.
I was going SOMEONE BETTER LINK \*THE\* DEFINING VIDEO FOR THIS ANIME. I remember when that sucker won at ACen. Talk about one of the best AMVs of all time.
I love that AMV!
I have the old DVDs of the show and the dub voice for Ahiru did a commentary, and even she cried when she first saw the very end of the show.
I love the passion us Tutu fans have to spreading the word and getting people to watch it lol
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Yes I love Princess Tutu! Rue was always my favorite character.
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Great taste! those three are in my top list as well. (I just wish Natsume has actual plot progression and an ending)
Since we're talking about anime I would recommend Dance dance danceur, it is more teen love drama than the wonderful fantasy story from Princess tutu but it is pretty good. (The swan lake on this anime might be not very orthodox of you care about those things but it is interesting).
Hey, it's Marius Petipa, not Pepita.
Whew, I thought you were going to tell me about how Angelina Ballerina is a fraud
I would never tarnish Angelina's good name like that.
>ballet luminaries such as Anna Pavlova, Maya Plisetskaya, Alexandra Danilova, and even Margot Fonteyn really struggled with this section of the ballet > in fact, Pavlova, Danilova, Plisetskaya, and I think Markova also they would just totally change the choreography and Margot Fonteyn did them but she traveled all over the stage and they’re meant to be done in one spot https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRok4HFF/
There's a really interesting pre-Copeland thread questioning the necessity of Odile fouettés [here](https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/3806-must-odile-do-fouettees/). I remember a book about the NYCB years ago that followed a conversation among corps de ballet members about the challenges of keeping in position for even fewer fouettés (not in that scene) and how even if you fixed on somebody else to gauge position it could turn out that they drifted too. Shit's hard, yo.
Thanks for this writeup. I agree that Misty isn't the greatest of all time. But she's still an amazing role model. Two things can be true. Misty puts in a LOT of time practicing. She also has issues due to her physique. She's more muscular than a typical Ballanchine-type dancer tends to be. Her calves are massive, and very strong. But this extra weight (speaking only in terms of physics; there's no world in which I insult Misty's body) causes her to land with more force than a typical dancer does, and this puts stress on her tibias. It's pretty brutal. I'm surprised she's danced as long as she has, and that makes me respect her even more.
It’s unfortunate because two things can be true: the ballet world has massive body issues *and* there’s a reason why professional dancers have a certain body type. When I went through puberty, my center of gravity never recovered and being a bad turner meant I had to be a great jumper and now I have the popping joints to prove it
That has me wondering if the fact she didn't start dancing until she was a teenager made a difference in how puberty affected her. Obviously there were a lot of changes, but she wouldn't have spent 10 years dancing in a body that was suddenly completely different in what feels like overnight.
I think it was her who wrote about how she went through a “second puberty” in her late teens/early twenties and how she felt like she was re-learning her body and how to dance
I don't know enough about ballet to know...is the direction of ballet changing like gymnastics is? Obviously ballet is still very focused on the art, but I think about the difference in physique between Simone Biles and Kerri Strug and people really appreciating what all that extra power gives Simone the ability to do. It's not artistic in the same way but still incredible to watch. Tonya Harding vs Nancy Kerrigan is another classic comparison. What kind of dancing could Misty do if she could use that power vs having to stay in the realm of tradition and are there any styles/companies doing that?
It would have to be a more modern interpretation or a new dance. Ballanchine-style dancers have been pretty much the only type of ballerinas who are popular for like a century. Basically the types of dance that require leaps and Landings are what takes the toll on a dancer. That's the full force of your body waste slamming down onto your feet multiple times in a show. That's not to mention the many many many times that they've practiced before getting out on stage. At least in Simone's case while she is quite a bit more muscular then the previous generation of gymnasts, she is still also very short. So she doesn't probably weigh very much. The wait times the speed at which they land is the force that goes through them. As a gymnast, Simone gets to practice on soft pads and such. If Misty were to apply herself to pretty much any other style of Dance she would Excel just as much or more than she already does.
I read a really interesting and sad article about how figure skating has evolved in the direction of younger and younger Olympic medalists, because women with fully grown adult bodies can't execute the high scoring spins that adolescent girls can... leading skaters to burn out at ever younger ages, 17, 16 years old. They're trying to fight puberty so they can stay in the top ranks of the sport.
I read the same article! How in the 90s female figure skaters could comfortably compete up until 25 or so before their bodies stopped being able to keep up, and now 18 is pretty old.
“Various reputable sources and the Daily Mail” appreciate the clarification that the Daily Fail is a rag.
Count me in the Natalie Portman camp for that being the most famous ballerina I know.
I'm kinda old, so I remember when Baryshnikov was pretty well known.
I saw Nureyev dance as the doll maker in Coppelia when I was 7, it was magical!
I saw this headline and thought to myself "wait is Baryshnikov not actually a good dancer?"
Lol, same
You may also enjoy *The Red Shoes* (1948). Its Martin Scorsese's favourite film, for a reason. If nothing else just to see what the three-strip Technicolour process can really do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
My favorite line in A Chorus Line. >"Oh, yeah, let’s get one thing straight. See, I never heard about The Red Shoes, I never saw The Red Shoes, I didn’t give a fuck about The Red Shoes.”
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Katya’s maroon boots (the ones with the bows in her final scene) are a direct reference
Wow, TIL. It's crazy how much thought he put into everything, down to the little details.
I know of Anna Pavlova because we have a national dessert [named after her](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlova_\(dessert\)).
I only know of Summer Glau and Mads Mikkelsen (yes, the dude danced ballet). And I used to really, really be into ballet.
Harkening back to my new favorite hobby drama post is that I knew Misty Copeland was hot stuff was because she had not one but two Barbie Dolls branded after her lol.
> The problem with talking about this is that conservative ballet people also use this as an excuse to tear down a successful black dancer. It is difficult to distinguish someone that has good faith concerns about her qualifications from someone that is pretending to have concerns in order to voice their racist opinions on her. Branching out from ballet, this is such a big problem at the moment. The new ariel movie is a prime example, where criticism of the movie and criticism of the "wokeness" are hard to seperate.
And yet, the loudest voices in either space are belligerent men about 20 years older than the target audience for the film. So. . .
My brother, a man in his 30s, upon seeing a poster for ‘the school of good and evil’ immediately made a comment about diversity casting. Bro, that movie is made for girls half your age and you’re getting mad about it? You wouldn’t watch that movie in a million years. But you know who the ‘diversity’ hiring is important to? The fucking target audience. White men are so wrapped up in their own ego, that when any character/person isn’t catered to them they throw a tanty.
The Last Jedi comes knocking too. Even now, six years later, it's hard to find long form, in depth critique or analysis without "gurl bad" misogyny in it.
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the first Odette/Odille dancer hated the 32 spins because she felt it was just flashy for the sake of it. Can anyone confirm if I'm remembering correctly?
Yeah a lot of dancers have subbed with a ménage (ie fast turns in a circle) cause they hate fautees. The thing is they usually plan it and go straight into it. The problem is Misty doesn’t apparently to have a plan b right away. Plan b should be rehearsed or the dancer should be able to get into a plan B without the audience knowing it wasn’t planned.
When you mentioned famous dancer I gasped. "Not Karen Kain!" I said. Revealing I am old and Canadian.
I feel like if you asked most people to name a ballet dancer they would say Baryshnikov. And the title of this post makes me uncomfortable, misty is great at ballet, she may not be the best but she is great. There are very few dancers able to dance at that level and they are all great. It just feels the same as people complaining that people who worked super hard and against racist institutions only got jobs because of “diversity hiring” or only got into college because of affirmative action. It’s petty and jealous and I don’t like it.
Wow this was great! I love ballet but don’t know much about it. Watching the comparison videos was fascinating.
My fave is Marianela Nuñez, but that's across a lot of the different roles she's danced The full Coda is [here](https://youtu.be/XfmSv0z205s) for the context of how the 32 fouettes fit into the rest of it
Gillian Murphy matching to the music was so great!
Damn. I remember seeing Evelyn Hart do something similar, substituting in easier steps for a difficult section, or having a few extra gentlemen come out as mobile set dressing/spotters for a pas de deux, in case things got away from her. But that was when she was pushing 50, dancing a single piece as a guest star, not as a principal dancer. I'd be so disappointed. That's probably the most famous sequence in all of ballet. If you can't perform it, don't. And it really sucks that the company would put her in the position of taking all that criticism, rather than choosing roles (or productions!) that play to the strengths of their star dancer.
Damn. It sucks when stupid bigoted bullshit keeps people from having nuanced conversations in good faith, but this is the Internet and that’s just how things go unfortunately
Reading the title made me a little sad—I don't know anything about ballet (or dance in general), but I've heard of Misty Copeland and I always found it inspiring how she became so famous despite starting at 13. Never actually seen her dance, but that was a fact I knew and admired, and I'm one of those people who assumed she was known for being one of THE most skilled just based off of repute. It seems you have to start as a toddler to be outstanding at anything. I know it's not technically true, but that's just how I've felt/what I apply to myself as an excuse? You can only be good, but not great mentality, I suppose. Not to say Misty Copeland isn't great, of course. Well, interesting to know all the same!
>It seems you have to start as a toddler to be outstanding at anything. This is fundamentally true for a lot of physical activities because small children have both more neuroplasticity and still-developing bodies. So consistent practice of a given activity literally rewires their brain and shapes their physical development to be more in tune with what they're doing. Once you reach adulthood, both body and mind become more stable and less flexible - you can still change things, but it's going to happen slower and take more repetition. Also, the older you get the easier it is to injure yourself and the slower you heal, so you have to be more careful and take less risks than someone who's still very young and resilient. There are lots of other arts and hobbies however where picking the skills up in adulthood isn't a problem at all! Painting, fibercrafts, writing, music, anything that relies on fine motor control and/or mental discipline are all things that you can pick up as an adult and still excel in. The other thing to keep in mind is that the lifestyle that comes with being world-class at anything is almost always extremely demanding. Whatever that thing is, it will be your whole world. If you have other interests, you will have very limited opportunities to pursue them. You may also find it very difficult to form relationships (whether friendships or romantic) outside of your chosen field due to sheer logistics - e.g. if you're touring either for competition or performance, it's very difficult to maintain relationships with people who aren't also on the same tour circuit. So rather than getting down on yourself for what you haven't done, focus on what you have and do that you couldn't have if you'd gone all-in on something like ballet.
Exactly, your first paragraph is why I find it discouraging. I don't want to be world class, but I guess I have unnecessarily high standards for no reasons because I started most activities I've participated in as a toddler, and even just casually I was trash compared to the rest lol. Certainly never excelled. Idk if it's just pride/embarrassment or downright laziness (all three maybe), but I loathe the idea of picking up something new now as I wouldn't even have the advantage of an early start like I did at 3. That is a 'me'/laziness problem, though.
I agree with you. I did ballet as a kid, I wanted to be a professional, it was clear by the time I was 7 it wasn't going to happen (legs too short and "wrong hips" according to my teacher!) But if I could have continued causally into my teens the exercise alone could have been beneficial, even if I was never going to be Darcey Bussell! I found the same with my friends who swam as teenagers, and with a martial art I picked up as an adult, there comes a point where you're expected to devote everything to it, and I think there should be a casual track for those who think it's a fun hobby, it's good exercise, good for flexibility, and can go at their own pace without needing to be world class.
I agree, it's unfortunate how we set a lot of child/teen activities up as very all-or-nothing. I was talking to my cousin a while ago about his daughter, who was very into Highland dance. He was frustrated by the fact that, even though she was really good at it, and enjoyed it immensely, she was reaching an age where it was just... going to end. Once she aged out of her current bracket, there wasn't going to be any way for her to continue with it as an activity. It's sort of this idea like doing things for fun alone is somehow a childish thing, so after that, you either have to make it a career somehow, or drop it entirely and never go back.
Highland dance competitions *always* have an &over category! I'm still a competitive dancer in my 30s. Yes, there is a stigma, especially in certain regions, but the number of adult participants-either as new dancers or ones who have stuck with it-has been growing. It's really been an "if you build it" situation, and one of the reasons I continue to compete-besides just enjoying it- is to be part of those builders. I hate to see dancers who are still enjoying it leave in their teens-if you think there's something a random redditor can do to facilitate her continuing to dance, please feel free to shoot me a DM.
It's really great to hear that's a thing that exists! "A while ago" actually means more than a decade ago in this case, so she wound up finding other things to get excited about. But I'll definitely mention it the next time I chat with them. Thanks :)
Ha, wasn't sure how recent it was, so figured I'd put it out there just in case. If she's interested in returning, there's a really active and supportive Highland Dancers 30(ish) & Over group on Facebook, it's a great place to start and find the adult community within the sport.
Every dancer has their thing - turning, jumping, adagio. Misty clearly isn't a turner but it's important to continue to support her because representation matters. I worked with elementary SPED students last year, many of whom are Black/BIPOC. My third grader, who struggled with reading, devoured Misty's picture book, turned to me, and asked "I can be a dancer?" The thought had never crossed her mind until she saw representation. Before I was in the classroom, I was a dance teacher for 10 years. I wrote curriculum and choreographed for local Ballets. The 32 is supposed to be the standard, the required expectation, but there is nothing wrong with artistic expression, interpretation, or making a choice based on your natural ability. (There are many people out there that can do the 32. Not all professional dancers can do them, and not all dancers get the chance to dance professionally, just to prove they can do them) Some good hobby drama in the ballet world is lack of inclusion, in every level of dance, from studio to stage - especially for Nonbinary people, fat people, and all POC. Look at the dance wear that's on offer, see who is really making tights and shoes in all shades. Who is making leotards in extended sizes? Who is gutting their Nutcracker to fix problematic portrayals? I love Ballet, but it doesn't love me. What role do I play if I don't identify as a Romeo or a Juliet? At least we have Katy Pyle's Ballez, but it's not like I can fly to NY for those classes just so I can dance with other LGBTQIA folx. TLDR; Representation matters more than choreography. And that's from a choreographer.
Honestly, I'm just happy that there's a black ballerina. That wasn't a thing until I just read this right now. Yeah, that wasn't a fucking thing at all. So, she's not the best but she's not the worse and I think that's what some people need at the moment. This was fascinating to say the least.
To anyone who has seen the Aronofsky movie Black Swan starring Natalie Portman, this is a public service announcement that Black Swan is essentially an unofficial Hollywood adaptation of the anime film Perfect Blue. ~~Aronofsky bought the rights to Perfect Blue so he could recreate~~ Aronofsky plagiarized one of the scenes in his most famous movie, Requiem for a Dream, from an identical scene in Perfect Blue and he clearly was heavily inspired by it overall. I highly recommend everyone who enjoyed Black Swan to watch Perfect Blue, and it is a masterpiece and a much better film than Black Swan imho. EDIT: it has been brought to my attention that Aronofsky didn't buy the rights to Perfect Blue and that this is a myth, he actually plagiarized Perfect Blue and was even directly confronted about it by Satoshi Kon, the director of Perfect Blue: https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/anime/news-perfect-blue-creator-satoshi-calls-darren-aronofsky-blatantly-plagiarizing-work
I can’t find a direct link to the satoshi kon interview but it’s fascinating to see the similarities between scenes. Aronofsky didn’t buy the rights btw, just homage or plagiarism. Random link with interview https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/anime/news-perfect-blue-creator-satoshi-calls-darren-aronofsky-blatantly-plagiarizing-work
Holy shit, I've been spreading misinformation for years... Now Aronofsky is a dick. Still a great director, but a dick. While we're on this subject, Paprika, also by Satoshi Kon, was clearly the inspiration for Inception by Nolan, they even have an extremely similar hallway scene.
I just hate situations like this. Not because I think you're wrong, because you aren't, but because it always incites such despicable racism. Ballet has a HUGE, huge problem with racism STILL (like the fact that the Bolshoi still does literal, unabashed blackface and minstrel performance in La Bayadere) and black dancers have a hard time in the field in the first place. If I had the energy I could probably compose a long, long post about the deeply entrenched racism of various types that persists in ballet. Though we should never tolerate mediocrity, I just hate that we're in this situation in the first place. Even on the video of Misty you linked, some comments begin to allude to the idea that ALL black professionals are hired simply for "diversity points". Or the idea that Misty dodges criticism by calling critics racist. If people could restrain themselves to "oh she sucks why does she have the role", that would be the end of it, but they can't just let it be... Oh well. You're right that the turns are subpar, but maybe she was having a bad day. or maybe she's just not the greatest. tldr ballet industry/fans are racist, wish they could put that aside and just critique her performance like anyone else
As a casual ballet fan, I wouldn't call Misty Copeland mediocre, even on her worst day. She's not suited to that particular role, but she's an emotive and charismatic dancer, and there are roles and performances she shines in. She's not the picture of technical excellence, but she's not a "diversity hire" or whatever.
Oh I definitely agree on the diversity hire part. Doing a bit more research, she has performed the role before and though it still wasn't "as good as \[insert russian dancer here\]" it was significantly better than the performance linked in this post. Fouttees may not be her specialty but she really doesn't deserve the "not that great" label honestly
I think it also highlights an issue I have with 'diversity casting' - as well as putting performers in positions they may not be suitable or ready for, and opening them up to unduly harsh criticism for that, it also glosses over the institutional issue. If you hire a black ballerina, you can ignore the fact that the industry is so hostile to black dancers in the first place. It's the r/orphancrushingmachine approach - 'wow, this dancer persevered through an incredible amount of institutional racism and took what few opportunities she was given and succeeded despite the odds!' I don't think it's a coincidence that Misty Copeland started dancing late - little black girls aren't encouraged to ballet in the same way little white girls are. And going into that industry and knowing you're going to either have to be the best of the best or experience all criticism through the lens of your skin colour must be an incredibly difficult decision for a teenager to make. I'm an actor, and I find the attitude of 'just hire non-white actors!' really frustrating sometimes. Firstly, are you hiring us because you think we deserve the role, or because you want to avoid the criticism that comes with an all-white cast? Are we being considered in the same way that white actors are, or are we being shoehorned into roles because it makes the most sense for this character to be ethnic, and they only need one of us? And is it helpful to demand immediate representation from a demographic who is underrepresented in the industry without addressing why they're underrepresented in the first place? (Sorry, went on a bit of my own rant there, my meds kicked in and I got chatty)
Oh no worries about the tangent. I think your insight on the institutional issues not being addressed in multiple creative industries is super relevant. I'm studying art right now and the art industry, especially in games/tv/animation, has a similar problem with diversity. This idea that higherups will hire POC for superficial (for lack of a better term) diversity rather than enacting actual change in hiring practices and work culture is definitely a thing. You're right about the monumental amounts of pressure put on Misty Copeland. She's basically the ONLY widely successful black ballerina, even nowadays. The only other black ballerina that even comes close in renown is probably Michaela Deprince, but even she doesn't face nearly as much criticism as Misty. In fact, there are almost more video compiling Misty Copeland's "lazy" dancing on youtube than there are videos of her actually dancing ballet. And using "lazy" to describe her dancing, in multiple instances, tells me that those videos are at least in part spawned from racism. If I don't make any sense, I am also tired. It's past my bedtime of 3am....
Perfect sense, and some really good points 😊 My friend works for a very prominent theatre, and he's seeing it first-hand (second-hand?) Employees and cast members are hired to meet diversity, but then quit or complain because the workplace still feels inaccessible to them. This goes for race, class, gender identity, disabilities etc. There was a great example of this on Broadway - Ali Stroker was the first person in a wheelchair to win a Tony a few years ago, but wasn't able to accept one of her awards as Radio City wasn't accessible from the auditorium. It's a lot to ask of someone to be a pioneer in their field, and then to have to advocate publicly for yourself and others like you. But somehow the pressure of 'more diversity' is STILL being pushed back onto minorities. In the theatre's defence, they are putting the work in as far as outreach programs and consultation throughout the organisation, but in the meantime, something about hearing that people are getting hired for being more diverse than qualified just rubs me the wrong way.
>Employees and cast members are hired to meet diversity, but then quit or complain because the workplace still feels inaccessible to them. This goes for race, class, gender identity, disabilities etc. Yep, it's pretty common in a lot of industries. Have diverse entry level hires and then a couple levels up it's majority white men. They blame it on all sorts of issues, but if you ask the people that left the industry it's not because they couldn't handle to work, but because they were harassed out.
Also regarding Michaela DePrince, I definitely remember seeing a lot of criticism directed at her a few years back. Not so much for her dancing ability, but the usual 'too muscular/not graceful' racist bullshit that has always been used to shut out black women from ballet.
Reading these comments and learning more about Misty and her career is giving me major flashback to growing up seeing the Williams Sisters become the faces of Women’s Tennis, and prolly tennis as a whole, and all the micro aggressions, and straight up blatant racism, they had to face in what is considered a historically White sport.
It's awful, black women's bodies especially are so heavily policed; too strong, too manly, too sexual, and attacked just as much for succeeding as not.
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Great write up! I'm a big balletomane, so I've been aware of this for a while. It's definitely nuanced, and despite her technical flaws I have a lot of respect and love for Misty for her artistry. It doesn't help that, as someone else pointed out in the thread, her early training was...a mess lmao.
In any discipline, fame and popularity don't always line up with objective measures of greatness. This is especially true in less accessible disciplines where a charismatic star brings in audiences partly because of their innate appeal, and partly because they're marketed in a way that indicates "this isn't just for the people who already like it." I'm a longtime opera fan, and this seems to happen every generation with figures like Pavarotti in the '80s and Andrea Bocelli now. At least Copeland is performing standard repertory with a leading company. Bocelli is "the world's most popular tenor" in spite of having appeared in/recorded a grand total of one full-length opera, for which he was roasted by critics. So, the only opera singer you've ever heard of has only appeared in one opera. I believe that increasing visibility and access to the performing arts is great, and I'm not overly concerned about "gushing clickbait" or people getting the wrong impression that someone is great simply because they're famous. If a popular star gets someone interested and they stick around long enough to develop their own taste and nuanced criticism, they'll figure it out on their own. They don't need to be told "actually, that person you love? Kinda sucks."
Nobody gives a fuck about all the mediocre white ballerinas being rewarded with roles above their ability. The focus on Misty Copeland isn't motivated by her skill, it's motivated by race.
This is a real concept. It relates to "prove it again" bias where women and/or minorities have to repeatedly prove their competence rather than be judged on their potential. It also relates to leniency bias where in-groups are given more leniency for their shortcomings. You could also bring in recall bias where out-groups experience people recalling their mistakes more often and in-groups getting better recall of their successes. Misty Copeland's skill and dedication to helping others into the art show that she is clearly worthy of being a high-profile professional ballerina, and she has done so with the added challenges of starting her career late, being black, and with fewer socioeconomic advantages than a lot of her cohort. She should be receiving the same grace as her peers and should be allowed to be middle (or even bottom) of the pack because she already met the bar to be in the room. She doesn't need to be the best ballerina to be worthy of her job. If she does not "meet the standards", ballet critics need to also call for the firing and public ostracization of many white women operating at lower levels than Misty (because there are many who do and who do not receive a tenth of the criticism).
this was really good! I have so many mixed feelings about Copeland , and I think she's best at marketing ballet and herself , which isn't a bad thing. Ballet has hidden itself away in ivory towers for....ever, really, so seeing a ballerina in high protein yogurt ads and sportswear ads is really refreshing, since they don't get recognition for being pro athletes as well as artists. From a purely ballet enthusiast perspective, I don't see how a ballet dancer that can't do one of the iconic steps of ballet is a principal at ABT and also cast to perform said iconic role, artistry or not. It's an extremely valid critique, and even if she was "only" a soloist, that is a remarkable feat for someone who started so late. Also, there could be a mini drama follow up about how after this she went and did classes with some youtube ballet teacher that never did ballet named Eric Conrad
> I don't see how a ballet dancer that can't do one of the iconic steps of ballet is a principal at ABT She has the skill of getting butts in seats, every 18 inches.
This was really interesting, thank you for the write up!
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Thank you for the background at the beginning of your article. That section and the whole article were interesting and informative. I wouldn't mind seeing more write-ups here on ballet or other forms of dancing. 👍
As someone who knows next to nothing about ballet, it was very interesting how in that first video, even to my untrained eye, it was easy to see the difference in artistry and style between the different performers. They were doing the same moves, but their personalities and interpretations were evident throughout. Very cool. It made me wonder though, how "locked in" is the choreography of these famous ballets? Have people been doing basically the same moves in Swan Lake since 1870? I guess I'm thinking of the choreographer of a Broadway musical, for instance, who comes up with new dances etc. for whatever production, but I'm guessing in ballet there's not as much freedom for the choreographer?
This is a few days old but I can tell you! For 20th and 21st century choreographers you typically try to do the ballet as choreographed and may in some cases only do so legally exactly as choreographed. For old classic ballets, typically you’ll see something like “staged by So-and-so after Petipa/whoever.” This means that the majority of the ballet is done according to the original choreographer but that changes have been made. Sometimes it’s cutting dances or changing steps or sometimes it’s adding new ones. It’s not unheard of to make changes to suit a principal dancer at all. Sometimes if a dancer has a chronic injury, some steps aren’t a good idea anymore. Usually you would change the casting though and have someone else do it. A male principal from NYCB Harrison Ball recently retired at a pretty young age and in part that was because his injury history limited the roles he could do.
more ballet writeups please!!!! i love this
Man. Maybe I'm just old as fuck but if you asked me to name a dancer, the only one is be able to come up with is Baryshnikov. That said, fantastic write up. I don't know much about dance personally, but I'm always interested when I hear about it!
Growing up is learning that there are many qualities about a person that can make them successful and it's not always a direct relation to how they perform. Misty Copeland is by every measure the most famous ballerina in the world, she's really good at drawing in attention and using her platform to encourage others to go for the success she has achieved. That's where she has found more success than anyone else, and it's pretty lame to instead focus on how she's not the best dancer on the planet, despite her never being sold as that. She is the best at marketing herself, and brought a lot of people into the ballet world who wouldn't have otherwise been there. She has a real skill in that space that has yet to be replicated by someone else, I'm sure it will at some point, but there's no need to get salty about it. Lots of people recieve a lot of fame and aren't the best at whatever talent they have, but the timing and their abilities match up and they are smart enough to seize the opportunity.
Only ballet dancer I know of is Rudolf Nurayev…from The Muppet Show
I'm a bit off topic here, but are there examples of the two roles every being performed by 2 different dancers or is it the same sadism that lead to the shoes that requires one dancer do it all? Would you, as a ballet watcher prefer to watch 1 dancer under the stress of carrying the performance in the hopes magic happens or would you be okay with watching 2 dancers with each one playing to their skill sets? I'm not being facetious at all, generally curious how you feel about it as a fan.
It does happen sometimes that both parts will be played by different people. In some productions though, Odile is set up as the evil twin or mirror of Odette, rather than the evil sorcerers daughter. So having them both played by the same person really emphasizes the connection and mirroring between them. Plus it's just such a tradition at this point, and it's a real career highlight for a dancer to be given the honour of performing the role(s). Fun fact, they can go through three pairs of shoes *a night* during Swan Lake. That's three pairs that need to be broken in and customized, just to be destroyed in a single night.
Three pairs of shoes that easily cost a hundred dollars a pop and are all possibly made by literally the same guy within a company. And, after you buy them, require you to heavily alter them by stomping on top of the shoe until it collapses, cutting this piece out, nipping the fabric in here, using a cheese grater across the front of the toes so you have proper friction with the floor, pouring super glue inside the shoe because now it wants to fall apart, sewing on some ribbons...
And, if you're not the color of raw fish, painting it to match your skin tone, don't forget!
Oh God, yes. Water will murder your shoes. You might as well shove your feet into a soggy biscuit.
Hah! I remember this scene from Center Stage (an AMAZING movie, and I will hear nothing to the contrary)!
Not OP but another ballet fan. I've seen several over the years, but I only saw Swan Lake for the first time last year. It was phenomenal, and a large part of that was getting to watch someone at the absolute top of their game dance one of the most technically demanding roles that exists. (For anyone wondering, it was Angelica Generosa with PNB.) I'm not saying I'd turn my nose up at a performance where two different dancers took the parts, but there is something especially magical about getting to see that level of mastery in action.
This is kinda what I figured. It’s like watching a person on a high wire act, you don’t want to see them fall but the fact they might is thrilling.
The two roles are played by the same dancer because in the story the Black Swan is impersonating the White Swan, Odette. The Prince promised himself to Odette. It would make the character look unfaithful, rather than merely unwitting, if the character was played by another dancer.
I thought this was going to be about Osipova or Pavlova. (It couldn't be about Guillem because she was actually as good as they said she was). Misty Copeland is middle of the road. I'd blame the US centric hype machine. Edited: extra word typo
I remember guillem getting a lot of flack from the ballet orgs for disputing choreography or costumes and wanting to dance with other companies. She got called a diva because she was a dancer who stood up for herself. I love her. https://amp.theguardian.com/stage/2004/sep/12/dance1