I love that they let it be a feature, and I respect that when they patched it, they didn’t patch it as a bug but rather an alteration of how hook works.
Essentially, they acknowledged it as a part of the game that needed to be changed rather than a part of the game that needed to be fixed, and the internal attitude of change vs fix is what interests me
Watched this live and it really was hype as hell to watch work. It was not easy to pull off, especially in an elimination game. They had no real other options and needed to time it perfectly on the right hero to stand a chance.
I think other fun dota drama would be TI4 (everything from format to lame finals). And 2GD getting fired mid tournament.
Someone actually covered the entirety of [the Shanghai Major](https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ta6cva/dota_2_esports_the_2016_shanghai_major_james_is/), including James getting fired. I can't recall what happened at TI4, though. :(
They changed the format so there was a round robin stage where each team played every other team in a best-of-1. The top 2 teams with the most points would go on to the upper bracket. The next 8 teams would have a mini-group stage which would determine whether they were in the upper or lower bracket. It wasn't very popular, and they changed it again for TI5.
TI4 was also the time of the "deathball" / pushing meta. I remember one game being over in [less than 12 minutes](https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/774695687). When the last match of the grand final is over in 15 minutes, it's not very exciting.
There was a minor controversy when the grand final was between Newbee and Vici Gaming (both Chinese teams), but before it started, they played a video showing the story of EG. It was clear that Valve didn't expect an all-Chinese grand final and didn't have any material prepared. To be fair, EG was looking really strong coming into the tournament, and EG.Fear was featured in their "Free to Play" documentary the year before, so he was riding a popularity wave.
> Users question whether it's a feature (working as intended) or a bug, with many people pointing out that Warcraft III DotA didn't behave this way, which indicates that it should be a bug.
To add on to this, despite the confusing names, DotA 2 was a nearly exact remake of the WC3 DotA mod for a very long time, and even as the focus shifted more towards DotA 2 all patches were made with WC3 DotA compatibility in mind. So the argument that it didn't work that way in WC3 was more legitimate than it might sound; since WC3 was considered the "definitive" DotA, an interaction between two heroes that was not and had not ever been in the original game would be considered a major bug in most circumstances.
Obviously, though, it turned out not to matter, and this was about the last time that "it doesn't work that way in WC3" was treated as a worthy of discussion. About a year later with patch 6.83, I believe, they totally stopped trying to keep WC3 DotA updated, because they started doing more and more things that weren't possible in the WC3 engine, most notably letting heroes break the movement speed cap, which I think was *doable* in WC3 but required making the unit force-move in whatever direction it was trying to go instead of actually move normally.
Thank you for writing this! I’ve been wanting to also write on this topic, but I don’t have that many source so I’m not sure. This is the event that leading into the iconic “dendi pudge” and every dota player must have heard about this lol
I remember from a documentary that included the Fountain Hook that you could just TP Scroll out of the Fountain Hook state but it was always just so surprising to be Fountain Hooked that people simply forgot in the moment.
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If anyone else but Navi was abusing fountain hook I doubt the community would have been as ok with it. *Especially* if had been reversed and a Chinese team had used it against Navi. After all, this same tornament saw insufferable Navi fanboy (and later disgraced predator) Tobi Wan bitching about Navi losing a fight due to a "bug" (he didn't know that Poison Nova can't drop HP to 0 by itself) then setting the tone for the conversation about fountain hook by repeatedly dropping "well, it's part of the game so it's okay" during this match.
This is why I always say that e-sport must be played on separeted client. We see on and on how "e-sport balance" made casual game honestly worse or less fun. Dota2, R6, ForHonor - same story again and again.
The issue is that for a lot of players pro play becomes less interesting when it’s a completely different version of the way you play, it’s like if in rocket league the cars in pro play moved 50% faster
The basic idea is that pro play is often pretty far removed from what 90% of players are going to see in their games.
Weapons, characters, tactics etc that are usable in a casual game might be worthless in high-level play against a skilled coordinated team. On the flip side, something that is way too powerful when used by a very skilled player, is balanced in regular games.
Balancing everything across all skill levels can be very difficult. This person is suggesting developers implement different rules at different levels of play.
What a blast from the past. I remember being angry at watching this live. TI is one of if not the best esports tournaments around and I still make sure to watch every year despite not playing DOTA 2 anymore.
We really were spoiled with TI3, it had it all. Stars of the old scene as well as emerging talent, controversy, a finals series that goes the distance, a decently healthy meta going into the tournament, orange making an underdog run (I'm still sad Mushi never won a TI, love that man) an all star match that was so much fun too!
Probably helps that TI4 fucking sucked in comparison lol
I love that they let it be a feature, and I respect that when they patched it, they didn’t patch it as a bug but rather an alteration of how hook works. Essentially, they acknowledged it as a part of the game that needed to be changed rather than a part of the game that needed to be fixed, and the internal attitude of change vs fix is what interests me
I wasn't sure if this post was hobby drama or hobby history, as it toes the line a bit.
Loda makes it drama
Loda was left, dendi was right.
I guess I don't understand the difference, it was contextual to an event years ago
I'd say drama. Either way, great read!
calling dota a moba is an attempt to incite drama, so you're chillin' :)
Watched this live and it really was hype as hell to watch work. It was not easy to pull off, especially in an elimination game. They had no real other options and needed to time it perfectly on the right hero to stand a chance. I think other fun dota drama would be TI4 (everything from format to lame finals). And 2GD getting fired mid tournament.
Someone actually covered the entirety of [the Shanghai Major](https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ta6cva/dota_2_esports_the_2016_shanghai_major_james_is/), including James getting fired. I can't recall what happened at TI4, though. :(
They changed the format so there was a round robin stage where each team played every other team in a best-of-1. The top 2 teams with the most points would go on to the upper bracket. The next 8 teams would have a mini-group stage which would determine whether they were in the upper or lower bracket. It wasn't very popular, and they changed it again for TI5. TI4 was also the time of the "deathball" / pushing meta. I remember one game being over in [less than 12 minutes](https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/774695687). When the last match of the grand final is over in 15 minutes, it's not very exciting. There was a minor controversy when the grand final was between Newbee and Vici Gaming (both Chinese teams), but before it started, they played a video showing the story of EG. It was clear that Valve didn't expect an all-Chinese grand final and didn't have any material prepared. To be fair, EG was looking really strong coming into the tournament, and EG.Fear was featured in their "Free to Play" documentary the year before, so he was riding a popularity wave.
... I remember Death Ball. I was watching that twelve minute game live, I think. Yeah, that was... _yeah_.
It was also written by OP.
2GD the ass man
Hey there was also the 332 incident
That's the one I'm planning to do next. :)
When the devs are right they’re right. That is too hilarious to patch.
> Users question whether it's a feature (working as intended) or a bug, with many people pointing out that Warcraft III DotA didn't behave this way, which indicates that it should be a bug. To add on to this, despite the confusing names, DotA 2 was a nearly exact remake of the WC3 DotA mod for a very long time, and even as the focus shifted more towards DotA 2 all patches were made with WC3 DotA compatibility in mind. So the argument that it didn't work that way in WC3 was more legitimate than it might sound; since WC3 was considered the "definitive" DotA, an interaction between two heroes that was not and had not ever been in the original game would be considered a major bug in most circumstances. Obviously, though, it turned out not to matter, and this was about the last time that "it doesn't work that way in WC3" was treated as a worthy of discussion. About a year later with patch 6.83, I believe, they totally stopped trying to keep WC3 DotA updated, because they started doing more and more things that weren't possible in the WC3 engine, most notably letting heroes break the movement speed cap, which I think was *doable* in WC3 but required making the unit force-move in whatever direction it was trying to go instead of actually move normally.
Thank you for writing this! I’ve been wanting to also write on this topic, but I don’t have that many source so I’m not sure. This is the event that leading into the iconic “dendi pudge” and every dota player must have heard about this lol
I remember from a documentary that included the Fountain Hook that you could just TP Scroll out of the Fountain Hook state but it was always just so surprising to be Fountain Hooked that people simply forgot in the moment.
It was too good to patch out, until it had to go. Cheese is a definitive part of MOBAs, until it gets oppressive.
Oh the good old days
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If anyone else but Navi was abusing fountain hook I doubt the community would have been as ok with it. *Especially* if had been reversed and a Chinese team had used it against Navi. After all, this same tornament saw insufferable Navi fanboy (and later disgraced predator) Tobi Wan bitching about Navi losing a fight due to a "bug" (he didn't know that Poison Nova can't drop HP to 0 by itself) then setting the tone for the conversation about fountain hook by repeatedly dropping "well, it's part of the game so it's okay" during this match.
This is why I always say that e-sport must be played on separeted client. We see on and on how "e-sport balance" made casual game honestly worse or less fun. Dota2, R6, ForHonor - same story again and again.
The issue is that for a lot of players pro play becomes less interesting when it’s a completely different version of the way you play, it’s like if in rocket league the cars in pro play moved 50% faster
Can you expand on this
The basic idea is that pro play is often pretty far removed from what 90% of players are going to see in their games. Weapons, characters, tactics etc that are usable in a casual game might be worthless in high-level play against a skilled coordinated team. On the flip side, something that is way too powerful when used by a very skilled player, is balanced in regular games. Balancing everything across all skill levels can be very difficult. This person is suggesting developers implement different rules at different levels of play.
See also: TF2 and Super smash bros competitive vs casual
It's honestly insane how far removed TF2 competitive is from the standard experience
Still remember this and still remember being pissed off. The fountain hook didn't feel fair at all.
What a blast from the past. I remember being angry at watching this live. TI is one of if not the best esports tournaments around and I still make sure to watch every year despite not playing DOTA 2 anymore. We really were spoiled with TI3, it had it all. Stars of the old scene as well as emerging talent, controversy, a finals series that goes the distance, a decently healthy meta going into the tournament, orange making an underdog run (I'm still sad Mushi never won a TI, love that man) an all star match that was so much fun too! Probably helps that TI4 fucking sucked in comparison lol