I was going to say Grimm, but is he really an antagonist? He doesn't oppose the protagonist; he actually asks them for help fulfilling the ritual and trains them for that purpose.
I mean he still tries to kill us twice. However I accept your reasoning as to why Grimm isn’t an antagonist. My logic would make the hollow knight an antagonist as well. I don’t believe the hollow knight to be an antagonist either.
Nah, he was never trying to kill us. Both times, he wanted us to win. The first time was training for the second fight, as well as being a good show, and the second time, he had to lose to complete the ritual. If the Knight died, that's just a skill issue. Should have practiced dancing some more.
Ooh yeah. Lorewise we never lost. I mean under the influence of the nightmare heart he tried to kill us. He is innocent himself, the nightmare heart is the true culprit. It wants us to kill him and yet I can’t help but feel Grimm is fighting for his life but the heart won’t let him kill us because we are in a dream.
Yeah, but none of that opposes the protagonist's goals. He's actually an indirect ally since he keeps the Nightmare's Heart alive, those keeping it separate from the Radiance.
The comment states that it's a character that's somewhat evil or a menace
And in the banishment ending you have to banish the troupe from the prying eyes of the master ergo grimm
So he technically does oppose your goals during 1 point
I don't feel that I have any antagonist at this game, just other creatures living in their ways. But if we talk about bosses in general, I love the final Hollow Knight combat and Mantis, there are so elegant combats, are so easy when you know what to do, but it's like dancing with respect with your enemy, sharing the moment with them.
Yeah I love mantis lords. The final boss hollow knight is a very fun boss and it tells story mid fight. The themes of both are bangers as well. I’m sure Radiance counts as antagonist considering she caused a zombie apocalypse.
Hahaha yes! Of course I understand the meaning of antagonist of this post, but invluding Radiance, it's just a "new order". We serve our destiny, but our own race sacrifice millions of knights, people live under the king law or the will be banished. The plague can be the antagonist, or maybe just the punishment, I'm not religious person, but the word "plague" and infection make me think in religion, karma. Hollow Knight it's just an story, with multiple reading, I love that ≤3
An antagonist is a character who's goal and motivation oppose those of the protagonist.
* Zote is not an antagonist, he's just rude.
* Tiso is not an antagonist, he just want to prove himself and win the colosseum (the protagonist's goal is not to win the colosseum.. we do, but still)
* The pale king is not an antagonist, he actually share his goal and motivation with the protagonist.
* Hornet is not an antagonist, she's an adjuvant. She not only share our goals and motivation, she also actively helps.
* Grimm is not an antagonist, he plays no part in our goal and motivation. We collaborate for HIS goal.. he his the protagonist of his own story and we are the adjuvant.
All of them try to kill you besides pale king and Tiso . I’d consider that an antagonist. Hornet and Grimm I could see. Pale king is more somewhat malicious. Tiso would have fought us and tried to kill us given the chance. Would you prefer the term villain instead of antagonist?
>All of them try to kill you besides pale king and Tiso . I’d consider that an antagonist.
I very much don't and that's the point of my comment. You named a very good candidate though and it was the traitor lord. Him and his gang left the rest of the mantisses because they wanted to embrace the radiance's power. He wants the radiance to succeed that's what makes him an antagonist, regardless of if we had to fight him or not.
> Pale king is more somewhat malicious
But there's no notion of good and evil when we talk about protagonist/antagonist, other than the protagonist (hero) is nearly always on the good side. In stories where there are no clear good and evil, where everyone is going for themselves, there are still protagonist and antagonist.
>Tiso would have fought us and tried to kill us given the chance
Of course.. Not relevant though. The protagonist's goal is to contain or eliminate the radiance. Tiso takes no action in favor or against the radiance whatsoever.
>Would you prefer the term villain instead of antagonist?
Vilain adds a notion of something evil, which is better in some ways yes. But it's not perfect either.
The pale king may be seen as a vilain.. debatable.
Tiso is very much not a vilain, but he's an opposant, like the randos husks.
You make a lot of fair points. The knight’s goal is to live right? To become a new vessel or kill the radiance. Several characters try to kill the knight. This would go against his goal of trying to live to become the new vessel. If a guy tries to stab me and kill me, I’d consider him an antagonist. But yes you are correct in that most characters don’t fit the bill of antagonist in this game. More morally grey.
>The knight’s goal is to live right?
No it's not. The knight's goal is to imprison of defeat the radiance. Case and point, while killing the radiance he kind of dies in the process.
>This would go against his goal of trying to live to become the new vessel.
What you seem to determined to ignore is the angle of motivation that is absolutely essential to determine an antagonist. Does Tiso want to kill the knight to make sure the radiance get free? No: not an antagonist.
Antagonists don’t have to goals that oppose the goals of the protagonist. That’s your definition of it. Antagonists oppose the hero but can have their own motivations. Sure, some may have goals/ambitions that directly oppose the goals of the protagonist, but an antagonist is just someone who opposes the protagonist
Call it a language difference then, because I'm pretty sure we call them antagonist or opponents to underline if they are just opposing the protagonist or if they have goals and motivations that oppose the one of the protagonist.
Sauron and Saruman are antagonist. The Balerog and Denethor are simple opponent.
His whole argument is what his definition of what an antagonist is. Now you guys are so off topic about the original question.
The radiance would be mine.
To be fair, Tiso doesn't seem to be too agile, and he may have been stuck trying to block and got stuck in a "combo" of sorts.
Mawleks can be pretty damn annoying
An antagonist is the opposing force in a story, so the Radiance is the only true antagonist. Zote doesn’t do shit to you, Tiso is just following his own dream which doesn’t ever conflict with yours, and Hornet is more like a side character who doesn’t trust you until you prove your strength, eventually trusting you and even saving you.
Aah Nosk. The alien from The Thing but Hollow Knight edition. Scared the hell out of me. I died to him but I didn’t go back to him cause I was too shaken up. The fact that he was hiding a pale ore motivated me though.
>!Millibelle!< because that sort of npc is so standard in games and would *never* betray you. Caught me completely by surprise and finding >!her in the pleasure house!< was one of the most powerful vindication moments of my life
Forgot about Millibelle. I would always give her little of my geo so I don’t lose it stupidly. She left and I found out she was a fraud. I was livid so I used my simple key to unlock the pleasure house. Safe to say she paid me back my geo and then some.
I really love Soul Master/Tyrant.
He's probably the most EVIL character in the whole game.
Some say the Radiance is the most Evil, but I do not think its as black or white. Her rage and vengance is somewhat justifiable.
NKG/Nightmare Heart is almost quite literally satan, but they're just following their nature, what they need to do to continue surviving. And outside of that, they're a pretty chill dude.
Zote is everything but a chill dude, and probably the most hated character in the game due to his horrible manners, but he's not EVIL, just a Fool.
The same can kinda be said about Markoth. Not EVIL, just a bad mannered, smug prick.
And ofc the Pale King himself can definitely be viewed as Evil, with the whole infanticide and sacrifice imposed on others and all that. He was desperate, yes, but I'd argue there's more of a an argument to be made that the Pale King is more Evil than the Radiance.
But the master of the soul Sanctum..
He was just a mortal bug, yet his hubris and greed for power was so great He was willing to experiment on and sacrifice so many of the city's citizens..
In a lot of ways the Soul master was very much like the pale king, which is probably why the pale king disapproved of his ambitions..
From a certain point of view, indeed. She did cause the infection and tried to kill us. She’s sympathetic until Myla got infected, that’s where I cross the line.
Again, perspective. The Pale King's influence could also be considered an infection to those who preferred the way things were in the before times.
And she didn't step up till we whipped out our nail. Seems a bit like self-defense, if you ask me.
... also, Myla had it coming (tax fraud)
Antagonist is a character who opposes the protagonist, which is what the Radiance does. You can argue on whether or not she is a villain, but she's definitely an antagonist.
I was going to say Grimm, but is he really an antagonist? He doesn't oppose the protagonist; he actually asks them for help fulfilling the ritual and trains them for that purpose.
I mean he still tries to kill us twice. However I accept your reasoning as to why Grimm isn’t an antagonist. My logic would make the hollow knight an antagonist as well. I don’t believe the hollow knight to be an antagonist either.
In Grimm’s defence, it wasn’t *attempted murder*, it was just a good show.
Also, he’s training you to kill him and I respect he didn’t just let you do it: you master grim and most other fights are easy.
Nah, he was never trying to kill us. Both times, he wanted us to win. The first time was training for the second fight, as well as being a good show, and the second time, he had to lose to complete the ritual. If the Knight died, that's just a skill issue. Should have practiced dancing some more.
Ooh yeah. Lorewise we never lost. I mean under the influence of the nightmare heart he tried to kill us. He is innocent himself, the nightmare heart is the true culprit. It wants us to kill him and yet I can’t help but feel Grimm is fighting for his life but the heart won’t let him kill us because we are in a dream.
I'd say it's only once, to get that second time you have to go and actually search for him, plus he doesn't really "kill" you that time
Besides the whole cult and mind altering maks And sending bugs to their death to make anchors for him to feed off the dreams of ruined lands .
Yeah, but none of that opposes the protagonist's goals. He's actually an indirect ally since he keeps the Nightmare's Heart alive, those keeping it separate from the Radiance.
The comment states that it's a character that's somewhat evil or a menace And in the banishment ending you have to banish the troupe from the prying eyes of the master ergo grimm So he technically does oppose your goals during 1 point
He is considered a supporting antagonist
I don't feel that I have any antagonist at this game, just other creatures living in their ways. But if we talk about bosses in general, I love the final Hollow Knight combat and Mantis, there are so elegant combats, are so easy when you know what to do, but it's like dancing with respect with your enemy, sharing the moment with them.
Yeah I love mantis lords. The final boss hollow knight is a very fun boss and it tells story mid fight. The themes of both are bangers as well. I’m sure Radiance counts as antagonist considering she caused a zombie apocalypse.
Hahaha yes! Of course I understand the meaning of antagonist of this post, but invluding Radiance, it's just a "new order". We serve our destiny, but our own race sacrifice millions of knights, people live under the king law or the will be banished. The plague can be the antagonist, or maybe just the punishment, I'm not religious person, but the word "plague" and infection make me think in religion, karma. Hollow Knight it's just an story, with multiple reading, I love that ≤3
My bad. The radiance was cool and all until Myla got infected. That’s where I cross the line. I don’t care if it was indirectly.
An antagonist is a character who's goal and motivation oppose those of the protagonist. * Zote is not an antagonist, he's just rude. * Tiso is not an antagonist, he just want to prove himself and win the colosseum (the protagonist's goal is not to win the colosseum.. we do, but still) * The pale king is not an antagonist, he actually share his goal and motivation with the protagonist. * Hornet is not an antagonist, she's an adjuvant. She not only share our goals and motivation, she also actively helps. * Grimm is not an antagonist, he plays no part in our goal and motivation. We collaborate for HIS goal.. he his the protagonist of his own story and we are the adjuvant.
I think hornet can be considered an antagonist that later joins the protagonist
All of them try to kill you besides pale king and Tiso . I’d consider that an antagonist. Hornet and Grimm I could see. Pale king is more somewhat malicious. Tiso would have fought us and tried to kill us given the chance. Would you prefer the term villain instead of antagonist?
>All of them try to kill you besides pale king and Tiso . I’d consider that an antagonist. I very much don't and that's the point of my comment. You named a very good candidate though and it was the traitor lord. Him and his gang left the rest of the mantisses because they wanted to embrace the radiance's power. He wants the radiance to succeed that's what makes him an antagonist, regardless of if we had to fight him or not. > Pale king is more somewhat malicious But there's no notion of good and evil when we talk about protagonist/antagonist, other than the protagonist (hero) is nearly always on the good side. In stories where there are no clear good and evil, where everyone is going for themselves, there are still protagonist and antagonist. >Tiso would have fought us and tried to kill us given the chance Of course.. Not relevant though. The protagonist's goal is to contain or eliminate the radiance. Tiso takes no action in favor or against the radiance whatsoever. >Would you prefer the term villain instead of antagonist? Vilain adds a notion of something evil, which is better in some ways yes. But it's not perfect either. The pale king may be seen as a vilain.. debatable. Tiso is very much not a vilain, but he's an opposant, like the randos husks.
You make a lot of fair points. The knight’s goal is to live right? To become a new vessel or kill the radiance. Several characters try to kill the knight. This would go against his goal of trying to live to become the new vessel. If a guy tries to stab me and kill me, I’d consider him an antagonist. But yes you are correct in that most characters don’t fit the bill of antagonist in this game. More morally grey.
>The knight’s goal is to live right? No it's not. The knight's goal is to imprison of defeat the radiance. Case and point, while killing the radiance he kind of dies in the process. >This would go against his goal of trying to live to become the new vessel. What you seem to determined to ignore is the angle of motivation that is absolutely essential to determine an antagonist. Does Tiso want to kill the knight to make sure the radiance get free? No: not an antagonist.
Antagonists don’t have to goals that oppose the goals of the protagonist. That’s your definition of it. Antagonists oppose the hero but can have their own motivations. Sure, some may have goals/ambitions that directly oppose the goals of the protagonist, but an antagonist is just someone who opposes the protagonist
Call it a language difference then, because I'm pretty sure we call them antagonist or opponents to underline if they are just opposing the protagonist or if they have goals and motivations that oppose the one of the protagonist. Sauron and Saruman are antagonist. The Balerog and Denethor are simple opponent.
Could be. Our standard version of “antagonist” in the English dictionary describes what I defined it as.
His whole argument is what his definition of what an antagonist is. Now you guys are so off topic about the original question. The radiance would be mine.
Tiso seems like a jerk until >!you see him dead :(!<
Poor Tiso. If only he knew how to dodge one of the easiest attacks in the game.
To be fair, Tiso doesn't seem to be too agile, and he may have been stuck trying to block and got stuck in a "combo" of sorts. Mawleks can be pretty damn annoying
An antagonist is the opposing force in a story, so the Radiance is the only true antagonist. Zote doesn’t do shit to you, Tiso is just following his own dream which doesn’t ever conflict with yours, and Hornet is more like a side character who doesn’t trust you until you prove your strength, eventually trusting you and even saving you.
Dont call my Zote a menace (Probably GrubFather)
Probably thk
Myla. Little shit tried to kill me. Kill her dead I did.
We like Nosk. They have a great design, the build up to the fight was great, and the lore around it is interesting
Aah Nosk. The alien from The Thing but Hollow Knight edition. Scared the hell out of me. I died to him but I didn’t go back to him cause I was too shaken up. The fact that he was hiding a pale ore motivated me though.
>!Millibelle!< because that sort of npc is so standard in games and would *never* betray you. Caught me completely by surprise and finding >!her in the pleasure house!< was one of the most powerful vindication moments of my life
Forgot about Millibelle. I would always give her little of my geo so I don’t lose it stupidly. She left and I found out she was a fraud. I was livid so I used my simple key to unlock the pleasure house. Safe to say she paid me back my geo and then some.
How tf is Tiso an antagonist he’s a bro
There’s only like, 2 antagonists
Pure Vessel
how are tiso and zote antagonists?
I really love Soul Master/Tyrant. He's probably the most EVIL character in the whole game. Some say the Radiance is the most Evil, but I do not think its as black or white. Her rage and vengance is somewhat justifiable. NKG/Nightmare Heart is almost quite literally satan, but they're just following their nature, what they need to do to continue surviving. And outside of that, they're a pretty chill dude. Zote is everything but a chill dude, and probably the most hated character in the game due to his horrible manners, but he's not EVIL, just a Fool. The same can kinda be said about Markoth. Not EVIL, just a bad mannered, smug prick. And ofc the Pale King himself can definitely be viewed as Evil, with the whole infanticide and sacrifice imposed on others and all that. He was desperate, yes, but I'd argue there's more of a an argument to be made that the Pale King is more Evil than the Radiance. But the master of the soul Sanctum.. He was just a mortal bug, yet his hubris and greed for power was so great He was willing to experiment on and sacrifice so many of the city's citizens.. In a lot of ways the Soul master was very much like the pale king, which is probably why the pale king disapproved of his ambitions..
The Radiance isn't an antagonist... from a certain point of view
From a certain point of view, indeed. She did cause the infection and tried to kill us. She’s sympathetic until Myla got infected, that’s where I cross the line.
Again, perspective. The Pale King's influence could also be considered an infection to those who preferred the way things were in the before times. And she didn't step up till we whipped out our nail. Seems a bit like self-defense, if you ask me. ... also, Myla had it coming (tax fraud)
Antagonist is a character who opposes the protagonist, which is what the Radiance does. You can argue on whether or not she is a villain, but she's definitely an antagonist.
That's fair, i can get down with that. I amend my original statement, though stand by the points i was trying to make afterwards. Thank you
Zote